:00:00. > :00:00.French defence sales, were used as a reason for allowing this to continue
:00:00. > :00:13.without being properly challenge. Bag you all very much. -- thank you.
:00:14. > :00:16.Tonight on Newsnight Scotland... The First Minister is in London
:00:17. > :00:21.talking up the benefits of independence for the rest of the UK.
:00:22. > :00:25.Crossing the border to deliver keynote speeches is becoming a bit
:00:26. > :00:29.of a habit in this debate for both sides. But how well do they go down?
:00:30. > :00:32.And research out today tells us more about this new and mysterious
:00:33. > :00:35.tranche of the electorate. Young people. How are they forming their
:00:36. > :00:44.opinions? And are the subjects really engaging them?
:00:45. > :00:47.Good evening. He talked about Scotland as the northern light
:00:48. > :00:52.balancing the dark star of the south. When Alex Salmond gave a
:00:53. > :00:53.speech to a gathering in London, he told them an independent Scotland
:00:54. > :00:58.would be a powerful told them an independent Scotland
:00:59. > :01:02.why did he feel the need to make that speech down south?
:01:03. > :01:04.why did he feel the need to make come to deliver their messages up
:01:05. > :01:08.here? Suzanne Allan has been finding out.
:01:09. > :01:20.It has long been a battle hymn of the SNP.
:01:21. > :01:23.# Scots way-hey... #. Tonight, Alex Salmond tried to
:01:24. > :01:29.invoke the spirit of Robert Burns more than ever. At an event the
:01:30. > :01:33.First Minister delivered an emotional speech, straight to the
:01:34. > :01:44.hearts and minds of Scots. Except he was in a place he calls the dark
:01:45. > :01:50.Star, London. Professor Tony Stivers said London is the dark star,
:01:51. > :01:55.sucking in energy, no one owes how to control it. He wants to rebalance
:01:56. > :02:01.the economy away from London. I'll macro after independence, the growth
:02:02. > :02:05.of an economic power in the north of these islands would benefit
:02:06. > :02:09.everyone. Our closest neighbours in the North of England more than
:02:10. > :02:14.everyone. It would be a Northern light to address the influence of
:02:15. > :02:21.the dark star, rebalancing the economic gravity. Better Together
:02:22. > :02:34.politician says he is short on detail.
:02:35. > :02:43.He has just not worked out the basic facts. No matter what his bluster
:02:44. > :02:47.is. So why did the First Minister go to the capital to appeal to a crowd
:02:48. > :02:52.of people who do not have a vote in September anyway? He would like
:02:53. > :02:56.popular support for the idea of an independent Scotland. They do not
:02:57. > :03:02.have the vote, so it is immaterial in one way, but it is not, as this
:03:03. > :03:05.will affect the whole of the United Kingdom. Everything Alex Salmond
:03:06. > :03:11.does, he is acutely aware the real audience, the voters, and appeared
:03:12. > :03:18.in Scotland, so this is a message played North as well as south of the
:03:19. > :03:22.border. This campaign is turning into a bit of a love in, David
:03:23. > :03:26.Cameron banging on about his Scottish roots and love of oil,
:03:27. > :03:29.George Osborne in Edinburgh seeing Scotland will not be able to bank at
:03:30. > :03:37.the same place as the rest of the UK. And there they are, again and
:03:38. > :03:41.again, and again. But did ruling out a currency union with the rest
:03:42. > :03:48.the UK backfire? David Cameron has tried to is good across the idea
:03:49. > :03:52.that this is not just a campaign to do with threats against Scotland,
:03:53. > :03:57.that we really need Scotland, want them to stay. In Scotland, George
:03:58. > :04:01.Osborne's approach went down quite badly in the chilly, but I think as
:04:02. > :04:05.the Scots have begun to think about it, they have realised this idea of
:04:06. > :04:11.a currency union is an important one. In terms of changing minds,
:04:12. > :04:19.does the Westminster's Cabinet in Aberdeen, and the trip to London by
:04:20. > :04:23.Alex Salmond, make any difference? It is the underside of voters. Our
:04:24. > :04:30.polls showed that marginally, the currency union issue, that favours
:04:31. > :04:34.the no side. I do not think it is a game changer as far as the rest of
:04:35. > :04:42.the campaign is concerned, at this stage. That anyone outside of
:04:43. > :04:47.Scotland care? Broadly, less John McGlynn -- less strong opinions. Few
:04:48. > :04:52.people dead set on this issue. But on the Ms -- but the majority of
:04:53. > :04:58.England and Wales are against independence. That is clear from the
:04:59. > :05:02.falling. There is no doubt citizens the length and breadth of the UK are
:05:03. > :05:07.starting to take notice of what is happening north of Hadrian Zwolle.
:05:08. > :05:15.Come September the 19th, though the tune be Scots Way-hey or the
:05:16. > :05:22.Dambusters? With me in the studio is the
:05:23. > :05:25.Observer Columnist Kevin McKenna. And in our Millbank studio, the
:05:26. > :05:27.editor of the New Statesman, who hosted the First Minister's speech
:05:28. > :05:32.tonight, Jason Cowley. Onto the matters of substance in a moment,
:05:33. > :05:37.but Jason Cowley, what did you make of that meeting and the long
:05:38. > :05:41.discussion after it? I invited the First Minister to London, he came
:05:42. > :05:45.down on our invitation, because I was fascinated by what he had to
:05:46. > :05:53.say. I thought the lecture itself was low-key. Moderate, balanced,
:05:54. > :05:59.delivered with very sober tones. Afterwards, the question and answer
:06:00. > :06:03.was electric, he was on great form, very witty, taking strong questions
:06:04. > :06:08.and engaging with them, and I thought it was superb and showed him
:06:09. > :06:13.at his best. What is your sense of the atmosphere amongst the political
:06:14. > :06:17.classes in London? You have written recently that you thought they have
:06:18. > :06:18.been very complacent about what is happening in Scotland. Is that
:06:19. > :06:28.changing? happening in Scotland. Is that
:06:29. > :06:31.both from the political elites at Westminster, but also the comment
:06:32. > :06:35.area down here in London. The standard line I have heard for the
:06:36. > :06:40.last couple of years, and it is something that interests me greatly,
:06:41. > :06:44.is that it will not happen. This from senior Labour Party ministers,
:06:45. > :06:47.not even beginning to think seriously about why so many Scots
:06:48. > :06:55.would feel so disaffected from London, from Westminster. But you
:06:56. > :06:59.think that is changing? Yes, because I think they are beginning to
:07:00. > :07:04.seriously consider the consequences of what Alex Salmond might achieve.
:07:05. > :07:07.They did not think he would win the 2011 Scottish elections. I did and
:07:08. > :07:13.wrote a leader in the New Statesman effectively warning the Labour Party
:07:14. > :07:17.that they were going to lose, this would have profound consequences for
:07:18. > :07:23.the Labour Party, or Scotland and the United Kingdom. Kevin McKenna,
:07:24. > :07:28.what do you think Alex Salmond's game is? It was always his intention
:07:29. > :07:37.to be in London at some point. To talk about the maturity of his
:07:38. > :07:42.independence vision and to allow the so-called political media elite to
:07:43. > :07:46.know that this is not just a pressure group any more, this is a
:07:47. > :07:49.serious political party who have been in government for several
:07:50. > :07:57.years. And that reassuringly, for them, that independence may not mean
:07:58. > :08:01.an absolute break with the UK, that they will still have lots of things
:08:02. > :08:06.in common and I think that was what was touched on in his speech
:08:07. > :08:10.tonight, about the cross corporation that they can have with, especially
:08:11. > :08:17.the northern regions in England, and also the Scottish model of social
:08:18. > :08:22.justice in an independent Scotland can be a beacon for the rest of the
:08:23. > :08:27.UK, especially at this time we are, in the UK, I think the programme
:08:28. > :08:34.after this is the second in a series exploring the extent to which London
:08:35. > :08:39.has become, is going its own way and become a separate city state, even
:08:40. > :08:43.with in England. Do you think the audience there was buying into that,
:08:44. > :08:48.Jason Cowley? Alec Salmond went out of his way to see nice things about
:08:49. > :08:54.London, of course, but the core of the argument is has to be that
:08:55. > :08:56.London is becoming a citystate, but there is something wrong with that,
:08:57. > :09:01.that other areas of the UK would there is something wrong with that,
:09:02. > :09:08.doing better if London was not doing so well. That is the bit that is
:09:09. > :09:13.perhaps more controversial? Yes, he uses a metaphor, taken from Vince
:09:14. > :09:16.Cable, about London's sucking talent and resources and people away from
:09:17. > :09:23.the rest of the United Kingdom, using the metaphor of the dark star.
:09:24. > :09:27.My problem with Alex Salmond's positioning is the North of England
:09:28. > :09:36.will be squeezed between an independent Scotland, which would
:09:37. > :09:41.wish to reduce corporation tax, and London. So he speaks about the
:09:42. > :09:45.social union, a currency union. But I have great concerns about his
:09:46. > :09:50.position on corporation tax in particular. So the North of England
:09:51. > :09:55.also suffers from a democratic deficit, not just Scotland, it has
:09:56. > :10:01.decisively and emphatically rejected the Tories, but at the same time, so
:10:02. > :10:05.has the North of England. And the North of England could find itself
:10:06. > :10:09.squeezed between Edinburgh and London. Fascinated you talk about
:10:10. > :10:12.democratic deficit, the companies there were referendums on more
:10:13. > :10:20.powers in the North of England. That field. -- failed. And maybe I New
:10:21. > :10:25.Statesman audience would not be representative of middle England,
:10:26. > :10:28.but the question and answer session, apologies we cannot show you that,
:10:29. > :10:32.that some of your audience were quite interestingly getting into a
:10:33. > :10:36.discussion about what should happen in England in terms of using what is
:10:37. > :10:45.happening up here as a way of sparking a much broader debate about
:10:46. > :10:48.constitutional reform in the UK. This is an opportunity for the
:10:49. > :10:51.Scottish people to vote for independence for the English to
:10:52. > :10:54.decide what kind of nation they want to be an reconfigure the
:10:55. > :11:00.relationship of these nations in these islands. It is odd that that
:11:01. > :11:05.debate hasn't happened. It didn't really happen in the run-up to the
:11:06. > :11:11.creation of the Scottish Parliament in the late 90s, and it hasn't yet
:11:12. > :11:15.really happened in England now that you would think, on the face of it,
:11:16. > :11:20.with all these transformations, there would be a debate about what a
:11:21. > :11:26.democracy in Britain or England actually look like. Well, I think
:11:27. > :11:32.politics north and south of the border have evolved away from each
:11:33. > :11:36.other since 2007. I think there is a perception in Scotland, and I know
:11:37. > :11:43.it can be exaggerated more than somewhat, that Scotland has moved
:11:44. > :11:49.towards a more old-fashioned socialism, where society is
:11:50. > :11:49.underpinned by the principles of social justice.
:11:50. > :11:57.underpinned by the principles of contrast with what has happened in
:11:58. > :12:04.England, where there has been a lurch to the right. -- this is in
:12:05. > :12:09.stark contrast. A Moray poll said that the numbers haven't moved
:12:10. > :12:22.amongst poorer people, among people who live in poorer housing estates,
:12:23. > :12:28.independence is winning. I think Mr Salmond thinks us that is good but
:12:29. > :12:37.they need to reach middle Scotland. The middle Scotland... Coming back
:12:38. > :12:41.to middle England, you don't think this debate is going to get very
:12:42. > :12:46.far. It is interesting. The New Statesman, to give them credit, it
:12:47. > :12:49.has been the first of the so-called London media establishment that
:12:50. > :12:55.began to take the referendum seriously come in my opinion. Well,
:12:56. > :12:59.we're running out of time, but Jason, you wrote that the UK is
:13:00. > :13:09.moving inexorably towards federalism. Really? Well, I would
:13:10. > :13:14.favour diva Max for Scotland at the very least. I'd be interested in how
:13:15. > :13:20.we might looked in power the region 's particular in North, I doubt we
:13:21. > :13:24.will have an English parliament but that would be interesting. This is
:13:25. > :13:30.an exciting period. When you come to Scotland, you get us but you get a
:13:31. > :13:36.sense there is something at stake. Things are beginning to turn. This
:13:37. > :13:41.is all the credit, and all of it goes to SNP and Alex Salmond. He
:13:42. > :13:44.might not win independence but he has certainly started a very
:13:45. > :13:47.important conversation. Thank you both very much.
:13:48. > :13:50.There are generally two truisms about young people and politics.
:13:51. > :13:53.They're less engaged than adults, and they vote exactly like their
:13:54. > :13:56.parents. Well, researchers from Edinburgh University have put paid
:13:57. > :13:59.to both those notions as part of a study into what influences young
:14:00. > :14:02.people's political attitudes. I'll be speaking to the report's author
:14:03. > :14:05.in a moment. But, first, Graham Stewart has been testing out the
:14:06. > :14:14.findings on our own unscientific group of young voters.
:14:15. > :14:18.This is generation 2014, the BBC's focus group of 16-18 -year-olds and
:14:19. > :14:22.they broadly reflects the findings of the study which suggests that
:14:23. > :14:25.young people are no less interested in politics than adults. In
:14:26. > :14:30.young people are no less interested media's playing a significant role.
:14:31. > :14:37.On Twitter, you can use the hash cake -- the hash tag, and you can
:14:38. > :14:42.get other people 's views, which can be interesting because it is not
:14:43. > :14:46.complicated, and it is short and sweet. The study indicates young
:14:47. > :14:48.people are keen on seeking out additional information. Jamie, who
:14:49. > :14:51.was on seeking out additional information. Jamie, who is
:14:52. > :14:55.undecided, says he his own research. I've compared both
:14:56. > :15:01.websites from Better Together campaign and the yes campaign. And
:15:02. > :15:12.at the moment, I am pushed towards yes campaign because they have given
:15:13. > :15:19.us more information. The research challenges the idea young people are
:15:20. > :15:23.influenced by the parents. I am voting the same way as my parents,
:15:24. > :15:29.as far as I know, although there is room for my own opinion. Yes, I have
:15:30. > :15:37.grown up in a family which is mainly yes, but they did consider myself a
:15:38. > :15:41.no vote for a while. -- I did consider myself. But I have had more
:15:42. > :15:46.sturdy campaign information from the yes campaign. These young people are
:15:47. > :15:48.determined to make up their own minds.
:15:49. > :15:56.Well, Dr Jan Eichhorn, who led the research, joins me now.
:15:57. > :16:00.So, the idea people are not interested in politics, you've
:16:01. > :16:02.stopped that. We have looked at figures in politics, you've stopped
:16:03. > :16:06.that. We have looked at figures and politic or interests, and it is the
:16:07. > :16:11.same as adults. About 10% as disinterested, but that is similar
:16:12. > :16:16.to what we see in adults. Young people are not more interested but
:16:17. > :16:19.not less interested. What did you say to them? Did you ask them in
:16:20. > :16:30.general whether they were politically engaged, or did you ask
:16:31. > :16:36.them about this in specific? We did both. Nearly 90% talked about the
:16:37. > :16:39.referendum. We asked them about their intention to vote in the
:16:40. > :16:43.referendum from a practical point of view and it is similar to adult
:16:44. > :16:49.perspectives. We think the voting turnout is going to be high.
:16:50. > :16:55.Something people have commented on is that perhaps a lot of young
:16:56. > :16:59.people might be interested to in gauge in political issues in the
:17:00. > :17:04.broad, but not interested to engage in this particular issue. No, they
:17:05. > :17:07.are even more interested in this referendum. Partially because they
:17:08. > :17:13.can see that there is something where their vote matters. It is a
:17:14. > :17:15.clear decision. If a vote in a general collection, where we expect
:17:16. > :17:25.a lower turnout of young people than this... So, the item we had before
:17:26. > :17:29.said that we have something at stake. You are getting that same
:17:30. > :17:36.sense on this particular issue, people think this matters? Yes,
:17:37. > :17:40.young people feel, the 16 and 17-year-olds in the surveys we have
:17:41. > :17:45.done, they are taking this seriously because they realise it matters and
:17:46. > :17:49.they are being engaged. They are being taken seriously. You also say
:17:50. > :17:57.they don't vote the same as their parents. Absolutely. We interviewed
:17:58. > :18:00.one of their parents as well as the young people and only half have the
:18:01. > :18:09.same voting intentions as their parents. It is nearly 50-50. Just
:18:10. > :18:13.explained the point about schools. What is really important is that
:18:14. > :18:17.schools might bias young people if they discuss it in school. But what
:18:18. > :18:21.we see is that whether they discussed it in school or not,
:18:22. > :18:25.doesn't bias them to vote either way. However, those that have
:18:26. > :18:29.discussed it on average you more confident in the understanding of
:18:30. > :18:35.politics and their knowledge about the referendum. So it is a positive
:18:36. > :18:38.effect. Right, and just in case some parents are offended, you did find
:18:39. > :18:48.that whether or not people, young people, are likely to vote, they are
:18:49. > :18:52.interested in politics? They will listen to mum and dad when they say
:18:53. > :18:57.go to the polling booth, and ignore which side they should vote? No,
:18:58. > :19:02.young people do listen to their parents but they make up their minds
:19:03. > :19:04.with a variety of sources. That is the key. Thank you.
:19:05. > :19:16.Now a quick look at tomorrow's front pages. The Scotsman, Kerry once
:19:17. > :19:18.Russians want to invite further. And the daily record is about the dole
:19:19. > :19:28.queue. That's all from me. Good night.
:19:29. > :19:32.It will be a frosty start of the day with some pockets of fog-bob as
:19:33. > :19:33.well. Apart