:00:00. > :00:00.Just imagine London without any. -- a sudden cessation. As a society, we
:00:00. > :00:16.would fall apart in a relatively short space of time.
:00:17. > :00:24.Tonight on Newsnight Scotland, we will hear how four separate lattes
:00:25. > :00:28.are planning to ditch for your confidence in the upcoming European
:00:29. > :00:31.elections. Good evening. You may feel you've seen and heard enough
:00:32. > :00:34.about Europe already today - the Clegg-Farage road show has been
:00:35. > :00:37.remarkable in many ways. But outside that circus, there are some
:00:38. > :00:40.Europe-related issues which have a real bearing on people across the
:00:41. > :00:43.continent, including most of us in Scotland. In a moment, we'll hear
:00:44. > :00:45.four Scottish parties argue why their view is worth your vote.
:00:46. > :00:57.First, Huw Williams sets the agenda. Whether it is crofters in the
:00:58. > :01:04.Highlands, causeways between the islands, fishermen's days at sea,
:01:05. > :01:10.freedom of movement or the length of the working day, decisions taken in
:01:11. > :01:19.Europe affect most of us, most of the time. Scotland has six MEPs. At
:01:20. > :01:26.the moment, the SNP and Labour have two each, and there is one Lib Dem
:01:27. > :01:31.and one Conservative. We will elect our new representatives at the end
:01:32. > :01:35.of May. They will join a total of 751 MEPs elected by more than 500
:01:36. > :01:44.million citizens across 28 member states. Since the last election, the
:01:45. > :01:49.powers of MEPs have expanded considerably. They now have an
:01:50. > :01:52.important say in things like agriculture and regional aid. They
:01:53. > :01:58.can press the Commission to legislate on particular areas,
:01:59. > :02:03.including issues raised by voters, such as the big impact they had on
:02:04. > :02:08.fisheries. They have to consent to EU trade agreements with non-EU
:02:09. > :02:12.countries, and the proof new states. For the first time, new MEPs will be
:02:13. > :02:17.able to veto whoever governments choose as president of the European
:02:18. > :02:22.Commission, as well as vetting each candidate for the 27 EU commission
:02:23. > :02:30.jobs. But it seems we really could not care less. -- EU Commission.
:02:31. > :02:33.There is one question, what is the most important issue facing Britain
:02:34. > :02:41.today, and you have to fill in the space. The most spontaneous one
:02:42. > :02:45.mentioned is 2% for Europe. Should we care more about Europe, because
:02:46. > :02:50.the parliament has a considerable effect on all of us, doesn't it? It
:02:51. > :02:52.is a great paradox to me. The Scottish Parliament plays an
:02:53. > :02:56.important part in the lives of people in Scotland. Westminster is
:02:57. > :03:00.the same for everybody in the UK. And the European Parliament,
:03:01. > :03:05.undeniably, it plays a very important part in the life of the
:03:06. > :03:11.people of the UK, and yet the turnout is absolutely derisory.
:03:12. > :03:16.We know that if the Conservatives win the next UK general election,
:03:17. > :03:22.they are promising an in-out referendum on Britain's membership
:03:23. > :03:25.of the EU. Almost 60% of people in Scotland think there should be a
:03:26. > :03:30.referendum. That tends to be stronger feelings amongst men, older
:03:31. > :03:36.people, but also supporters of the SNP and the Conservatives. But when
:03:37. > :03:40.it comes to how people say they would actually vote in the
:03:41. > :03:45.referendum, there is a majority of Scots who say that they would vote
:03:46. > :03:51.to stay in. So, it seems Scots really are different. People in
:03:52. > :03:56.Scotland are more likely to favour staying in the European Union van
:03:57. > :04:04.respondents across the rest of the UK. About 53% of people in Scotland
:04:05. > :04:09.want to stay in, compared to 44% across the rest of the UK. And there
:04:10. > :04:14.is another EU paradox. The electorate seems disengaged, but
:04:15. > :04:18.political parties cannot help getting hot and bothered about this
:04:19. > :04:23.place. The issue of Europe has nearly destroyed the Labour Party,
:04:24. > :04:29.in the late 1970s, a great civil war. The SDP split away from Labour,
:04:30. > :04:35.nearly destroying it, largely as a result of Europe. Labour were in the
:04:36. > :04:38.wilderness for 18 years. They then passed the poisoned chalice to the
:04:39. > :04:42.Conservatives. And they were then out in the wilderness for 13 years.
:04:43. > :04:47.It is an issue which has created enormous difficulties, and which has
:04:48. > :04:57.scarred two of the biggest parties in the UK, and yet, for most people,
:04:58. > :05:02.it simply does not float their boat. Of course, Scotland's place in
:05:03. > :05:03.Europe will be decided by how we vote in May, and what we decide in
:05:04. > :05:10.September. I'm joined now from Inverness by
:05:11. > :05:14.Conservative Dr Ian Duncan, from Edinburgh by Stepehn Gethins of the
:05:15. > :05:29.SNP and Chas Booth of the Scottish Green Party. And here in Glasgow,
:05:30. > :05:35.Asim Khan from Scottish Labour. Dr Ian Duncan, when it comes to
:05:36. > :05:40.Europe, do you fall on the side of Nigel Farage or David Cameron? I am
:05:41. > :05:45.clearly a supporter of David Cameron. Let's make sure it works,
:05:46. > :05:49.and works for us, not against us. So, you would favour renegotiating
:05:50. > :05:52.the terms of which Britain is a member of the European Union? Well,
:05:53. > :05:57.I think we need to start looking at that. We know how the EU can impact
:05:58. > :06:03.on our daily lives. Let's cut red tape, let's reduce regulation,
:06:04. > :06:08.repatriate the laws, bring them closer to home. Let's try and make
:06:09. > :06:13.the EU work in our favour. But what always seems less clear in these
:06:14. > :06:17.discussions is, which laws and which measures you would actually like to
:06:18. > :06:22.bring back to Britain. Well, we have to start where we have to make sure
:06:23. > :06:26.that our key industries are protected. One of those would be the
:06:27. > :06:29.financial services industry, in Edinburgh and in London. Let's make
:06:30. > :06:35.sure there is no interference as there were attempts to do recently.
:06:36. > :06:40.Let's have a look at social Charter issues like the working time
:06:41. > :06:45.directive. Why should we be looking to regulate the working day across
:06:46. > :06:48.the whole of the EU? Of those two things you mentioned, the financial
:06:49. > :06:53.issue did not actually materialise, so the one thing you are wanting to
:06:54. > :06:58.repatriate is the power of bosses in Britain to make their workers work
:06:59. > :07:02.longer hours? Not at all. I am trying to highlight that there was a
:07:03. > :07:09.series of attempts not long ago to try to regulate what is going on
:07:10. > :07:14.here in Britain. But those did not so, you want to repatriate powers,
:07:15. > :07:17.and then have an in-out referendum, and the only example you have given
:07:18. > :07:22.me is the power of bosses to make workers work longer hours? Not at
:07:23. > :07:29.all, I also touched on the social chapter. I used to work in the
:07:30. > :07:33.fishing industry. Fishermen are among the most regulated people on
:07:34. > :07:37.the planet. We want to repatriate far more of the fishing powers. So,
:07:38. > :07:42.you want to abolish the common fisheries policy? I am saying, let's
:07:43. > :07:46.make sure that fishermen themselves are involved in the process. Let's
:07:47. > :07:57.have laws made here at home, why not? Let's do it now. Asim Khan, the
:07:58. > :08:01.policy of the Labour Party on a European referendum is now entirely
:08:02. > :08:06.mysterious, isn't it? I do not think so. Ed Miliband has been clear. We
:08:07. > :08:12.favour being within Europe, however, we recognise that with the
:08:13. > :08:15.increasing size of Europe that if there are more powers which are
:08:16. > :08:21.going to go to Brussels, then we recognise that there will be an
:08:22. > :08:25.in-out referendum. What does that mean, if more powers go to
:08:26. > :08:30.Brussels? Well, we do not know what that means yet until we know what
:08:31. > :08:34.the increased size of the Eurozone is going to look like. But we are
:08:35. > :08:39.quite clear that we want to make sure that the Labour Party will lock
:08:40. > :08:45.Britain's position with Rick Garde to know more powers going to
:08:46. > :08:50.Brussels... -- with regard. I thought your position was that if it
:08:51. > :08:53.was more powers which led to changes in European treaties, have I
:08:54. > :08:56.misunderstood? So there could be more powers going to Europe as long
:08:57. > :09:02.as they are not actually treaty changes? No, you are misinterpreting
:09:03. > :09:05.what I am saying. The premise of your question is wrong. We do not
:09:06. > :09:09.actually know what those powers are. What we are prepared to accept
:09:10. > :09:12.is that the will of the British people might mean that more powers
:09:13. > :09:19.going to Brussels will cause trouble, will cause a dilutions of
:09:20. > :09:21.the United Kingdom's position within Europe, and we want to make sure
:09:22. > :09:29.that we have a strong position within Europe, albeit that we want
:09:30. > :09:35.to assure -- we want to make sure that more powers's I am still not
:09:36. > :09:41.sure I know what that means. Can we have a referendum on whether or not
:09:42. > :09:47.to stay in Europe? Well, let's focus on... If Scotland votes for
:09:48. > :09:51.independence in a few months' time, it will get something it has never
:09:52. > :09:55.had before in Europe, which is a government which stands up for its
:09:56. > :09:59.interests. It was interesting to hear Dr Ian Duncan talking about
:10:00. > :10:02.fisheries. But would the first thing not be to have a referendum on
:10:03. > :10:09.staying in the European Union, what is the argument against? Let's take
:10:10. > :10:13.it one referendum at a time. I am not suggesting you do not have your
:10:14. > :10:17.independence referendum first, but I am saying, if you win the
:10:18. > :10:21.independence referendum, what exactly is the argument, if it is
:10:22. > :10:25.going to be this great explosion in democracy, for refusing to give the
:10:26. > :10:29.people of Scotland the right to decide on whether or not to be a
:10:30. > :10:33.member of the European Union? The first thing the Scottish Government
:10:34. > :10:36.will do will be to have a general election. That will be the first
:10:37. > :10:41.thing people can do. Rather than follow the UK Government's lead,
:10:42. > :10:45.which is to lose friends and influence across Europe, is to have
:10:46. > :10:50.a Scottish Government which stands up for Scottish interests, not a UK
:10:51. > :10:57.Government which fails to do so. In fact, it was a Tory government which
:10:58. > :11:00.described our fisheries as expendable, in a European context. A
:11:01. > :11:10.Scottish Government could never get away with that. So, your answer to
:11:11. > :11:18.my question is that you do not like Tory policy on fish? My view is that
:11:19. > :11:21.personally, I do not think we should have an in-out referendum, I think
:11:22. > :11:27.we have to make the most of our relationship with Europe. In
:11:28. > :11:31.Scotland, UKIP have not even saved their deposit in an election yet.
:11:32. > :11:37.Let's get in there and make the best job and for once, get a good deal
:11:38. > :11:44.out of Europe. Chas Booth, I am not quite sure what the Green Party pass
:11:45. > :11:48.policy is on referendums in Europe? Your own piece identified that there
:11:49. > :11:51.is no real appetite for it. Scots are overwhelmingly in favour of our
:11:52. > :11:57.membership of the European Union. Hang on, not overwhelming, it is a
:11:58. > :12:02.majority, but the poll also said that the majority would be in favour
:12:03. > :12:08.of an in-out referendum. I do not see the value of such a referendum.
:12:09. > :12:13.Your piece said 60% of Scots are in favour of EU membership. They
:12:14. > :12:16.recognise that considerable numbers of Scottish jobs come from our
:12:17. > :12:22.membership in the European Union, and they recognise that the European
:12:23. > :12:25.Union has brought us considerable environmental and social
:12:26. > :12:29.protections. In contrast, the Tories said they want to cut back on our
:12:30. > :12:34.social protection. As the Green Party, we think we need more
:12:35. > :12:37.protection. We want Europe to stand up for the interests of workers, as
:12:38. > :12:41.well as big business. We want a welcoming Europe, which welcomes
:12:42. > :12:46.migrants and immigrants and values their presence. But you do not think
:12:47. > :12:51.we should have the right to decide whether to be part of that or not? I
:12:52. > :12:53.do not think there is appetite for that. There is an overwhelming
:12:54. > :12:58.support for membership of the European Union. But the poll has
:12:59. > :13:11.told you there was an appetite for that? An appetite for being masked
:13:12. > :13:28.but when asked people want to stay in the European Union. What is the
:13:29. > :13:32.point of asking them, then? I am in favour of the yes vote and I look
:13:33. > :13:39.forward to Scotland taking its place in the family of European nations
:13:40. > :13:44.but a green vote in May gives us an opportunity to send out a message
:13:45. > :13:50.that we want a European Union that stands up for workers' rights and is
:13:51. > :13:58.welcoming to migrants. We ought to get away from this UKIP agenda which
:13:59. > :14:01.the media is keen to promote of this xenophobic agenda. A vote for the
:14:02. > :14:12.Greens would be the best way of stopping UKIP. I am struck by the
:14:13. > :14:17.contradictions here. If the people of Scotland wanted there to be a
:14:18. > :14:26.referendum on membership of the year, we should have that. --
:14:27. > :14:30.membership of the EU. Lets people make understand how Europe works for
:14:31. > :14:38.them so we can try to make them that. I don't see why we need a
:14:39. > :14:41.referendum to do that. Most people recognise the benefits of
:14:42. > :14:46.membership. Of course the European Union needs to be reformed, it needs
:14:47. > :14:53.to be more receptive to the interests of people. But
:14:54. > :14:58.overwhelmingly we benefit from it. If we vote yes, do you think
:14:59. > :15:06.Scotland will still be in the European Union? In many respects a
:15:07. > :15:10.yes vote in September could be the best way to ensure that Scotland
:15:11. > :15:15.stays in the European Union. The agenda at Westminster is very much
:15:16. > :15:27.the UKIP tail wagging the dog of all of the large parties. Asim Khan,
:15:28. > :15:33.what is your view? We only need to look at the legislative framework,
:15:34. > :15:38.it is clear that there needs to be unanimity amongst the 27 member
:15:39. > :15:44.states to permit Scotland to enter into the European Union. An
:15:45. > :15:51.independent Scotland would probably not be able to do that. Come on, it
:15:52. > :15:55.is inconceivable the European Union would not allow them to enter. There
:15:56. > :16:00.might be problems with the terms of entry. Can you imagine the European
:16:01. > :16:09.Union, trying to be a soft power, what kind of signal would it send?
:16:10. > :16:15.You have to look at what has happened in the past. We have seen
:16:16. > :16:19.the example of Croatia, it took them eight to ten years to get in. This
:16:20. > :16:29.is the problem with the yes campaign, they are saying things
:16:30. > :16:36.that simply are not going to happen. What is fascinating... What are you
:16:37. > :16:39.saying is not going to happen? Are you saying that an independent
:16:40. > :16:43.Scotland could not be a member or there would have to be a
:16:44. > :16:56.renegotiation and the SNP are being too blase? I think the latter.
:16:57. > :17:01.Labour saying that Scotland would be like Croatia ten years ago. What
:17:02. > :17:06.nonsense. We are the most energy rich country in Europe. The very
:17:07. > :17:10.thought that the European Union would not bend over backwards to get
:17:11. > :17:16.Scotland in is nonsense. Let's look at the opinion of experts. Sir David
:17:17. > :17:27.Edwards, former European commission judge... Ian Duncan, if Scotland was
:17:28. > :17:33.refused membership, presumably many members of your party would be
:17:34. > :17:36.delighted. Let's be clear, the idea that Scotland would become an
:17:37. > :17:43.automatic member is dead in the water. In reality there will have to
:17:44. > :17:48.be a negotiation if we want to be in there. There will have to be red
:17:49. > :17:57.lines and we don't not what they are. -- we don't know.
:17:58. > :18:04.Tomorrow's front pages, starting with the times. -- the Times.
:18:05. > :18:21.Pressure on Cameron to bar Scots at next election. She was our Princess,
:18:22. > :18:30.that is... From all of us on the programme, good night.
:18:31. > :18:36.For Thursday, not an awful lot of change on the weather front. The
:18:37. > :18:42.further west and north you live the more likely you are to catch thick
:18:43. > :18:46.cloud and out wrecks of rain. Belfast around 4pm it looks like
:18:47. > :18:51.there will be some rain and just like the last few days of the east
:18:52. > :18:57.coast of Scotland lots of cloud and drizzle around Aberdeen, still very
:18:58. > :19:05.cold in Newcastle, down to Scarborough, Hull, possibly the
:19:06. > :19:09.wash. We could get up to 20 degrees in the London area depending on the
:19:10. > :19:16.sunshine. The south-west of the country, have wrecks of rain, very
:19:17. > :19:21.cool in Plymouth, 11 degrees. Behind this weather front we have cooler,
:19:22. > :19:22.fresh air waiting for us as we head into