:00:00. > :00:00.parents. They say was the NUT has put a fight on pensions and pay,
:00:00. > :00:14.they are not winning them. They ask who exactly are they representing?
:00:15. > :00:18.On Newsnight Scotland tonight: The former Chancellor and Prime Minister
:00:19. > :00:22.Gordon Brown says a vote for independence would be bad news for
:00:23. > :00:26.your pension. The Yes campaign say his analysis is
:00:27. > :00:30.economically illiterate. There are clearly two sides of this argument,
:00:31. > :00:33.at least. We'll hear from SNP and Labour.
:00:34. > :00:36.Also tonight, did you see the documentary about women's attitudes
:00:37. > :00:46.to the referendum? We'll try to make sense of some more of that puzzle.
:00:47. > :00:50.Good evening. If you search online for "Gordon Brown" and "pensions"
:00:51. > :00:53.you get plenty of his arguments that independence would be bad for your
:00:54. > :00:56.state pension. Online, you'll also find material casting back to his
:00:57. > :00:59.early years as Chancellor and the so-called pension raid - the
:01:00. > :01:02.increase of the tax take on private sector pension funds. But today's
:01:03. > :01:05.intervention, on behalf of Better Together, was about the future not
:01:06. > :01:14.the past. Huw Williams' report contains some flash photography.
:01:15. > :01:19.Gordon Brown went to the University of Glasgow to contrast to views of
:01:20. > :01:25.Scotland's future, the nationalist vision or his own of four
:01:26. > :01:30.independent -- interdependent nations.
:01:31. > :01:35.Over the last years, we have achieved something that no other
:01:36. > :01:38.group of nations has achieved by working together. We have
:01:39. > :01:45.co-operated in such a way that we have guarantee it fundamental rights
:01:46. > :01:50.to everybody and we have narrowed the differences between the income
:01:51. > :01:58.levels of Scots and English people and Welsh and Northern Irish people.
:01:59. > :02:04.This is because we Scots made a decision that we would abandoned our
:02:05. > :02:10.separate funding for the health care system and we would work for UK
:02:11. > :02:14.intervention to establish economic and social rights.
:02:15. > :02:20.He listed what he called the positive benefits of the union,
:02:21. > :02:25.health care funding, social and cultural ties and pensions.
:02:26. > :02:32.As a result of our tax credit system, ?700 million is paid out as
:02:33. > :02:37.tax credits in Scotland, ?1 billion is paid out in disability benefits.
:02:38. > :02:43.As a result of these changes, the total benefit to Scotland that is
:02:44. > :02:48.greater than any population, that we could be given, is more for
:02:49. > :02:52.pensioners. That figure will rise, because the proportion of the
:02:53. > :02:58.working age population of Scotland will not grow as fast as England in
:02:59. > :03:05.future, but the number of pensions are growing fast. In the next few
:03:06. > :03:08.years, it will be 700 million pounds. That is a benefit of being
:03:09. > :03:13.part of the union. He quoted statistics from the
:03:14. > :03:19.Department for Work and Pensions, saying that Scotland pays 8% of the
:03:20. > :03:25.cost of UK National Insurance, that gets 9% of the benefits. He said
:03:26. > :03:29.that the rest of the UK underwrites Scotland's's public sector pensions
:03:30. > :03:32.Bill. And he said that administration and IT costs to set
:03:33. > :03:44.up a separate benefit system here could be around ?1 billion.
:03:45. > :03:50.In reply, the SNP said that Gordon Brown destroyed the value of
:03:51. > :03:55.pensions was in office, to the cost of ?100 billion. They said that
:03:56. > :04:00.social protection costs take a lower percentage of tax revenue, making
:04:01. > :04:04.pensions more affordable. And they said, an independent Scotland could
:04:05. > :04:10.set up a commission to set the right retirement age for people here.
:04:11. > :04:16.I think Gordon is making a false comparison. He is drawing a false
:04:17. > :04:22.analogy between what we spend on pensions and UK National Insurance.
:04:23. > :04:24.The cost of pensions come from general taxation, not just national
:04:25. > :04:33.insurer and is. We know that Scotland pay in 9.5%, and the point
:04:34. > :04:37.that we have 8.8% of pension costs means that we know that pensions are
:04:38. > :04:40.affordable. Workers across Scotland have already
:04:41. > :04:45.protested against pension train -- changes, but advocates say that we
:04:46. > :04:49.would be better off than the rest of the UK.
:04:50. > :04:54.Pensions can be afforded in Scotland, this has been
:04:55. > :04:58.independently confirmed. I think generally in Scotland, people in
:04:59. > :05:03.Scotland will look at the record of Scotland of looking after people,
:05:04. > :05:07.and think that an independent Scottish parliament is a better deal
:05:08. > :05:10.for looking after Scotland's older people than anything possible under
:05:11. > :05:16.the Westminster system. The former Prime Minister's
:05:17. > :05:23.contribution was already making headlines this morning. Although the
:05:24. > :05:30.English decisions suggested that millions of pensions south of the
:05:31. > :05:33.border already facing a future on less than the minimum wage, which
:05:34. > :05:40.was perhaps not the message he wanted us to hear.
:05:41. > :05:43.I'm joined now from Aberdeen by SNP MP Eilidh Whiteford, who speaks on
:05:44. > :05:48.work and pensions, and from Edinburgh by Labour Finance
:05:49. > :05:57.Spokesman Iain Gray MSP. Good evening. First of all, Eilidh
:05:58. > :06:02.Whiteford, what do you think of this intervention by Gordon Brown? Do you
:06:03. > :06:05.think that he will put people off voting for independence? You are
:06:06. > :06:12.saying today that he was economically illiterate.
:06:13. > :06:18.Today we saw scaremongering. The idea that we pay for pensions out of
:06:19. > :06:25.oil and gas revenues is ridiculous. The starting point of the debate has
:06:26. > :06:33.to be that the UK's rate on pensions is a very poor, it is one of the
:06:34. > :06:36.lowest in Europe, with a large gap between earnings and pensions. So
:06:37. > :06:44.letters not pretend that pensions are good at the moment, but letters
:06:45. > :06:51.look at how to face the future. -- let us look.
:06:52. > :06:56.He says that Scotland to pay 8% of UK National Insurance but receive 9%
:06:57. > :07:06.of the benefit. You have to look at the overall act, and not just take
:07:07. > :07:09.one component out of it. Obviously, Scotland is in a better economic
:07:10. > :07:17.position than the rest of the UK at the moment, getting less than we pay
:07:18. > :07:24.out. Pensions are more affordable in Scotland, because we are paying a
:07:25. > :07:28.lower proportion on social protection as a whole. That does not
:07:29. > :07:33.solve the entire pensions situation, because we do have
:07:34. > :07:37.challenges, but my argument would be that it is better that we find
:07:38. > :07:42.solutions and we would be better doing that for ourselves and taking
:07:43. > :07:46.that forward through the Scottish parliament were we can make
:07:47. > :07:53.decisions for our own interest. Letters speak to Iain Gray. We have
:07:54. > :07:58.been seeing the UK's record of pensions there and it is interesting
:07:59. > :08:08.to see Gordon Brown's intervention in this debate, with his actions in
:08:09. > :08:13.1999, accused of breaking thousands of pensions with the tax that he
:08:14. > :08:20.devised. The is he right to say this?
:08:21. > :08:27.He lifted a million pensioners out of poverty. Scottish pensioners know
:08:28. > :08:31.what Gordon Brown did for them. He is absolutely the right person to
:08:32. > :08:36.make this argument and it is an argument that he has made before.
:08:37. > :08:42.The way pensions work, those that work and pay in and learn more pay
:08:43. > :08:47.more, and that allows us to pay out something that allows a decent
:08:48. > :08:53.standard of living. In retirement, that is more secure and it works
:08:54. > :08:59.better if it is spread over a bigger pot, ?60 million rather than ?5
:09:00. > :09:05.million. The difference today is that he has brought forward the
:09:06. > :09:09.figures to talk about that. Unlike the figures that Eilidh Whiteford
:09:10. > :09:15.just quoted to you, the figures are different so the ones that she gave
:09:16. > :09:23.you. The Scottish Government's most recent figures showed that Scotland
:09:24. > :09:33.pay 9.1%, more than our fair share, but we get 9.3%. Every independent
:09:34. > :09:39.look at Scotland's financial situation if we became independent
:09:40. > :09:46.says that the fiscal deficit would mean public cuts in spending.
:09:47. > :09:55.He says that your figures are out of date. If you look at the figures for
:09:56. > :09:59.the past five years, Scotland has paid 9.5% of the revenue compared to
:10:00. > :10:05.the population percentage. If you look at that as a pattern over the
:10:06. > :10:10.last 30 years, you will see that Scotland's contribution has
:10:11. > :10:14.outperformed the UK in every single one of the last 30 years. This is a
:10:15. > :10:20.discussion about Scotland's future and whether or not letting
:10:21. > :10:27.Westminster doing nothing to tackle our demographic issues is OK, or
:10:28. > :10:33.whether we should make the decisions ourselves in Edinburgh.
:10:34. > :10:38.Letters to -- we should discuss these demographic issues. Gordon
:10:39. > :10:44.Brown was saying that the ageing population and the falling working
:10:45. > :10:50.population was significant. You seem to be putting that aside.
:10:51. > :10:56.The Office for National Statistics suggests that that gap is actually
:10:57. > :11:00.very small. It considers it quite a marginal difference in the longer
:11:01. > :11:05.term. Pretending that we cannot do anything about that is wrong,
:11:06. > :11:10.because the challenge is to improve our productivity and improve our
:11:11. > :11:15.economic strength, because that is really, at the end of the day, what
:11:16. > :11:21.makes our pensions and other aspects of affordable.
:11:22. > :11:26.Iain Gray, on that aspect, Gordon Brown was talking about
:11:27. > :11:32.demographics, but the report quoted says that demographic change is not
:11:33. > :11:38.a significant point in arguing about economics and independence.
:11:39. > :11:46.They have to would omit that this is a significant problem going forward
:11:47. > :11:51.for Scotland. -- they have to admit. Scotland is ageing faster and the
:11:52. > :11:56.proportion of older, retired people to working people is going to get
:11:57. > :12:03.worse. The white paper solution is that, from somewhere, simply because
:12:04. > :12:08.of independence, we will suddenly have many more working age people
:12:09. > :12:12.working in Scotland. A calculation has been done this week that
:12:13. > :12:18.suggests that far from being marginal, in order to achieve this,
:12:19. > :12:23.you may need as many as 1 million new workers in the workforce by the
:12:24. > :12:27.middle of this century. That is far from marginal or stop the white
:12:28. > :12:35.paper is silent on where these people will appear from. This is
:12:36. > :12:41.like the Kevin Costner film, build it and they will come.
:12:42. > :12:51.The challenge is a challenge for every country. But it is more
:12:52. > :12:56.significant for us. It is 1%, it is hardly a huge problem. We can only
:12:57. > :13:00.tackle this by improving our economy.
:13:01. > :13:06.Gordon Brown was talking about the sharing of our resources and picking
:13:07. > :13:12.out the five key aspects of the United Kingdom that he was
:13:13. > :13:15.promoting. He was saying at the SNP conference that you are really
:13:16. > :13:23.trying to appeal to the Labour voters. That is not the universal
:13:24. > :13:30.benefits, the health, that is a Labour issue. That will be hard for
:13:31. > :13:34.you to get across in independence? Labour seem to be saying different
:13:35. > :13:39.things north and south of the border. In Scotland is they say that
:13:40. > :13:45.we need the rest of the UK to have a health service, but he is selling of
:13:46. > :13:51.-- he is saying that it is different, I am appalled about what
:13:52. > :13:56.is happening in England and I do not want that to happen in Scotland. We
:13:57. > :14:01.need to protect the services and the best way to do that is to make
:14:02. > :14:08.decisions in our own interest. The wider point is that he was
:14:09. > :14:14.saying that he was ending the Charente and joining Better
:14:15. > :14:19.Together. -- ending the debate and joining Better Together. There seem
:14:20. > :14:26.like a lot of challenges together -- today.
:14:27. > :14:31.The fundamental things that have driven his politics all his life is
:14:32. > :14:38.that by sharing the resources, those who can pay in more, those who need
:14:39. > :14:41.it are able to receive protection through pensions or benefits. That
:14:42. > :14:47.is at the core of everything that Gordon Brown has done in politics.
:14:48. > :14:53.It is at the core of Labour Party politics. It is a positive argument
:14:54. > :14:56.that the United Kingdom. With the protection of being part of that
:14:57. > :15:02.bigger shared resources than we really can have the best of both
:15:03. > :15:09.worlds. That is the principle he was talking about today. When he talks
:15:10. > :15:12.about it, he will be heard. Now, if you were watching this
:15:13. > :15:15.channel two hours ago, you will have seen Jackie Bird's documentary about
:15:16. > :15:24.the way women are seeing the referendum. There is some polling
:15:25. > :15:27.evidence that female voters are less likely to vote yes than men. Or
:15:28. > :15:30.perhaps they just spend more time coming to a decision. Either way,
:15:31. > :15:33.campaigners recognise the potential game-changing significance. In case
:15:34. > :15:42.you missed it, here is a wee flavour of the documentary.
:15:43. > :15:50.Here is your classic female archetype. Women planning one of the
:15:51. > :15:55.biggest days of their lives. Who is more likely to be thinking about
:15:56. > :16:00.future choices than someone preparing to get married? It is the
:16:01. > :16:07.staff of the Better Together campaign's dreams, hundreds of women
:16:08. > :16:14.planning for a union. But this had nothing to do with politics until we
:16:15. > :16:21.turned up. I have made up my mind. I am against. I have not made a
:16:22. > :16:32.decision. I am quite worried about the decision. Have male relatives
:16:33. > :16:45.made up their mind? I think they have. Most women don't usually flock
:16:46. > :16:49.to Tom thumping public meetings. The first task for the campaigners is to
:16:50. > :16:55.round up enough women to inspire them. I am off to a village tucked
:16:56. > :17:14.away on the coal peninsulas in Argyll. -- Cowall. We believe I yes
:17:15. > :17:20.vote offers the best hope for our future generations. Let's take the
:17:21. > :17:25.leap of faith and trust that what we will get in the long run will be
:17:26. > :17:28.good. I know everything on television is scaremongering because
:17:29. > :17:33.most of the major banks and things probably would not have the money to
:17:34. > :17:41.relocate to London as they could not afford the rent down there. Despite
:17:42. > :17:52.the undoubted passions for the Women for Independence grip, tensions
:17:53. > :18:00.prevail. Could the gender difference be to do with the way we think? It
:18:01. > :18:05.seems that the cognitive differences between how male and female brains
:18:06. > :18:17.work are less important than learning to read or each. So if
:18:18. > :18:22.there is a different approach between men and women, it doesn't
:18:23. > :18:26.come from nature but from nurture, it is something we learn.
:18:27. > :18:32.My two guests are still here, the SNP's Eilidh Whiteford and Labour's
:18:33. > :18:42.Iain Gray. We were hearing that women are six or 7% less likely to
:18:43. > :18:48.support independence than men? I am speaking to women and men on the
:18:49. > :18:56.doorstep and at public meetings. It is important we don't stereotype
:18:57. > :19:00.women in this. There are as many reasons for not having made up their
:19:01. > :19:09.mind yet for men and women. I would not want to put a stereotype on
:19:10. > :19:15.this. At the same time, I think there are issues affecting women
:19:16. > :19:20.more than men, as they tend to be more represented in low-paid
:19:21. > :19:28.workers. So the minimum wage would be one example. They are all to
:19:29. > :19:33.aware of the money they have really lost out on over the last five years
:19:34. > :19:39.when it has not kept pace with inflation. Do you think women are
:19:40. > :19:45.being stereotyped in this debate? I think that can happen. There clearly
:19:46. > :19:49.is something going on as it would appear there is a difference in
:19:50. > :19:56.voting intentions in these polls. Whether that persists or prevails by
:19:57. > :20:04.September, we don't know. I broadly agree that we cannot assume that all
:20:05. > :20:12.women are going to decide the same things. One of the mistakes that
:20:13. > :20:17.political strategists sometimes make is that women are only interested in
:20:18. > :20:30.what they deem to be women's issues. Saw an offer on childcare
:20:31. > :20:36.would make up for jobs and the economy. That is certainly the
:20:37. > :20:43.stereotype and that has to be avoided. But I don't really know.
:20:44. > :20:47.There seems to be some difference here in the way that men and women
:20:48. > :20:54.are going to vote. I am not sure anyone knows why that is for sure.
:20:55. > :21:02.It seems to be natural, not nature and it is something that women learn
:21:03. > :21:10.about? I didn't see the documentary tonight, so I am a little in the
:21:11. > :21:24.dark as to what was said in that. Women have a lot to gain from a Yes
:21:25. > :21:28.Scotland full. -- vote. With more cuts on the way, women should be
:21:29. > :21:38.looking very closely at this. We were talking about pensions
:21:39. > :21:42.before... Sorry, we have to leave it there.
:21:43. > :21:51.Now a quick look at tomorrow's front pages.
:21:52. > :22:10.That's all from me tonight. I'll be back tomorrow. Goodnight.
:22:11. > :22:16.More showers around as we go through the rest of the week. Any showers
:22:17. > :22:26.this evening will buy a through the night. By morning, south-west
:22:27. > :22:33.England and Wales will be covered with this rainband. More sunshine in
:22:34. > :22:40.Northern Ireland. Some intense downpours over Northern Ireland in
:22:41. > :22:41.the evening. Low cloud towards the north-east of Scotland. Much of the
:22:42. > :22:43.eastern side