:00:00. > :00:00.this than us sitting here on TV having a debate. We need to get out
:00:00. > :00:15.there, the people need to get out there and work on this. Thank you.
:00:16. > :00:21.Tonight on Newsnight Scotland, we will ask the Justice Secretary Kenny
:00:22. > :00:23.MacAskill why he has sided to delay the bill which includes the
:00:24. > :00:29.abolition of the principle of corroboration. It is Saint Georges
:00:30. > :00:34.Day and the anniversary of Shakespeare's birth. We have been to
:00:35. > :00:40.Stratford-upon-Avon. We will be discussing the view from England
:00:41. > :00:45.with Tariq Ali and Tom Holland. Just a couple of months ago in his
:00:46. > :00:49.well-known fire and brimstone mode, the Justice Secretary castigated his
:00:50. > :00:54.critics who are trying to block the abolition of corroboration. Today,
:00:55. > :00:59.and meat and consensual Kenny MacAskill gave in to their demands.
:01:00. > :01:07.The plans have been put on hold for a year until a review has been
:01:08. > :01:11.completed. Corroboration is the requirement in Scots law that cases
:01:12. > :01:14.can only come to trial if there are two sources of evidence against the
:01:15. > :01:20.accused. It can be circumstantial, come from forensics science, or
:01:21. > :01:24.even, an accused person's previous convictions. At finding
:01:25. > :01:29.corroboration is a real problem in rape cases and where there are
:01:30. > :01:34.accusations of domestic abuse, hence the government's determination to do
:01:35. > :01:38.away with it, until today, when the plans were put on hold. There is
:01:39. > :01:41.more to the new law than just chopping corroboration. It would
:01:42. > :01:46.also have brought about a wide range of changes to police powers to
:01:47. > :01:51.arrest and detain suspects. Established body to set pay and
:01:52. > :01:55.conditions for peace in Scotland. Increased the maximum sentence
:01:56. > :01:59.courts can impose on anyone convicted of carrying a knife or
:02:00. > :02:03.offensive weapon in public or school or prison. Given the crown more time
:02:04. > :02:09.to bring cases before a sheriff and jury. It would have extended the way
:02:10. > :02:17.anyone accused of people trafficking could be charged. All those changes
:02:18. > :02:20.are now on hold as well. It is the dropping or postponing of changes to
:02:21. > :02:21.corroboration that will get most attention. It has attracted varying
:02:22. > :02:42.reactions. Corroboration has simply been
:02:43. > :02:45.considered a barrier to justice, rather than the other side of the
:02:46. > :02:50.debate where it should be considered a safeguard and something that has
:02:51. > :02:57.been a hallmark of the system for many years and should not be
:02:58. > :03:02.considered in isolation but form part of a wider review. Society
:03:03. > :03:06.would participate in such a review. MSPs have already passed the bill in
:03:07. > :03:10.principle but the delay means it will not go to the second stage of
:03:11. > :03:12.scrutiny until the spring of next year, something that has been
:03:13. > :03:17.welcomed by the political opponents of the government. If we need to
:03:18. > :03:21.rebalance the way that juries operate, decide about the powers of
:03:22. > :03:28.judges, decide how he say is used in court and so forth, let's get it
:03:29. > :03:32.right along with the decision about corroboration, but not make up our
:03:33. > :03:38.mind about one element of it and, in my view, this has been driven by
:03:39. > :03:42.politics from the SNP. It has been at chase after the votes of a very
:03:43. > :03:49.specific group of people, and those people are victims. It lacks
:03:50. > :03:52.credibility. The real dilemma, perhaps, is how do you get the
:03:53. > :04:00.criminal justice system truly to deliver justice, not just deal with
:04:01. > :04:06.cases on a court list? Short while ago I spoke to the Justice
:04:07. > :04:12.Secretary, I asked him why he delayed it. A proposal came from the
:04:13. > :04:18.opposition parties, asking us to delay the timescale for stage two
:04:19. > :04:23.and stage three. That was a matter that had not been offered before. It
:04:24. > :04:27.is an unusual procedure, I have been in Parliament since 1999 and never
:04:28. > :04:32.experienced it, but it was something we were happy to consider. We
:04:33. > :04:37.discussed it in Cabinet and intimated our acceptance of today.
:04:38. > :04:42.We welcome it, we are always keen to work with the opposition, to show
:04:43. > :04:49.willing. It delivers what we want is a government. Corroboration and its
:04:50. > :04:53.removal remains sacrosanct. There is no change to the timetable but there
:04:54. > :05:01.is a change thanks to the suggestion from the opposition parties as to
:05:02. > :05:07.the matter in which we will do it. As to this matter, it will be built
:05:08. > :05:11.upon Lord Carloway rather than legislation. The suggestion is the
:05:12. > :05:17.reason for now is because of the referendum, and you're trying to
:05:18. > :05:21.shut down any issue that could cause you problems. There might be some
:05:22. > :05:26.validity in that if it had not been them who offered it. They came
:05:27. > :05:30.forward with this proposal, we considered and reflected on it and
:05:31. > :05:38.accepted it, so the clearing of the decks has come from them. Not from
:05:39. > :05:44.myself. Was it a mistake to make MSPs pass legislation before it has
:05:45. > :05:48.been properly considered? Not at all, we passed it and should support
:05:49. > :05:54.on stage one, and I welcome the commitment we had in Parliament. We
:05:55. > :05:59.recognised that there were concerns about how the procedure was playing
:06:00. > :06:03.out, we were prepared to put in a procedure that has been used in
:06:04. > :06:06.other bills throughout the length of parliament, but when this proposal
:06:07. > :06:11.came in from the opposition parties we were delighted to accept it. I do
:06:12. > :06:17.think this will be clearer. It satisfies the concerns that many in
:06:18. > :06:22.the opposition had, that is why I have seen support from across the
:06:23. > :06:26.spectrum. We had a welcoming of it from the faculty of advocates and
:06:27. > :06:33.The Law Society of Scotland, and equally from Rape Crisis Scotland.
:06:34. > :06:35.We will get the best possible procedure for Parliament to
:06:36. > :06:41.scrutinise it at the same time, balanced with delivering to the
:06:42. > :06:47.victims groups the Access to justice that has been denied. Many people
:06:48. > :06:57.are still opposed to the plans. Conservatives are keen. Why are you
:06:58. > :07:00.so keen on this change? We have been hearing from Labour that you are
:07:01. > :07:08.basically canvassing for victim votes, to appeal to female voters.
:07:09. > :07:11.We are doing what is right. Thousands of victims, tens of
:07:12. > :07:16.thousands of victims in Scotland are routinely denied access to justice.
:07:17. > :07:21.Many are female, because they are subject to sexual offences. Some are
:07:22. > :07:24.children. Some are the elderly. They do not get justice because of the
:07:25. > :07:29.routine requirement for corroboration. We believe the case
:07:30. > :07:33.for the removal of corroboration has been made. That was endorsed at
:07:34. > :07:39.stage one in the Parliament. What we have done is established a review
:07:40. > :07:43.group of the great and the good in Scotland of the legal profession,
:07:44. > :07:48.and are victims groups, who will set out the basis for clear safeguards
:07:49. > :07:52.to have the best possible procedure is in Scotland, and that way we will
:07:53. > :07:58.deliver what is necessary. The scales of justice are balanced for
:07:59. > :08:02.the victim, but also to ensure the rights of the accused. We will need
:08:03. > :08:08.to leave it there. Thank you for joining us. Cry God for Harry,
:08:09. > :08:12.England, and St George. The famous battle cry goes and the Patron saint
:08:13. > :08:16.of south of the border has been celebrated. Including those paying
:08:17. > :08:20.tribute to the greatness of England was the Prime Minister, but he also
:08:21. > :08:25.used his contribution to emphasise the benefits of the United Kingdom.
:08:26. > :08:29.In just five months the people of Scotland will go to the polls. And
:08:30. > :08:33.they will decide whether they want to remain a part of this global
:08:34. > :08:38.success story. So let us prove that we can be proud
:08:39. > :08:43.of our individual nations, and be committed to our union of nations.
:08:44. > :08:48.Because no matter how great we are alone, we will always be greater
:08:49. > :08:54.together. Also in the land of St George
:08:55. > :08:58.tonight was the First Minister Alex Salmond. In a cross-border rail to
:08:59. > :09:02.Carlisle he spoke to a business audience, hoping to convince them of
:09:03. > :09:07.the benefits of independence, and saying it wasn't something to be
:09:08. > :09:11.scared about. Scotland will not be a foreign country after independence,
:09:12. > :09:14.any more than Ireland or Northern Ireland, England or Wales could be
:09:15. > :09:19.ever be foreign countries to any sensible person in Scotland.
:09:20. > :09:22.Scottish independence will not change many aspects of the
:09:23. > :09:26.day-to-day life in the countries within these Ireland's -- islands.
:09:27. > :09:33.In fact he said independence would benefit the north of England, as it
:09:34. > :09:37.would help recalibrate the economy and lesson London's dominance. That
:09:38. > :09:42.has been described as a dark star, sucking in resource, people and
:09:43. > :09:46.energy. . The successful Scotland we will certainly see will become a new
:09:47. > :09:51.growth poll to the north. Shifting the centre of economic gravity of
:09:52. > :09:54.the islands, it often seems as though power, well, and talent flow
:09:55. > :10:02.down to the south-east, independent Scotland will cause a rebalancing of
:10:03. > :10:08.Britain a northern light to resist the influence of Professor Travers's
:10:09. > :10:12.dark star. It marks the 450th anniversary of William Shakespeare's
:10:13. > :10:15.birth, so we sent our referendum correspondent Laura Bicker to
:10:16. > :10:22.Stratford-upon-Avon, the home of the Bard to find out what people there
:10:23. > :10:29.are making of the campaign. Oh Scotland, Scotland. But here in
:10:30. > :10:32.the town of Shakespeare's birth the constitutional drama being played
:10:33. > :10:37.out north of the border is largely passing them by. Instead they are
:10:38. > :10:41.focussed on celebrating the English Bard's birth but when pushed, those
:10:42. > :10:52.at this community arts project were aware of the debate. I know that
:10:53. > :10:57.Scotland's... Just might want to leave the United Kingdom. I fully
:10:58. > :11:01.understand why they would want their independence, so it has a good,
:11:02. > :11:06.there is good points and bad points really. Social gist Alex Smith
:11:07. > :11:08.believes the level of English engagement with the Scottish
:11:09. > :11:11.referendum depends on which part of the country Tay live and how much of
:11:12. > :11:17.the campaign they have been listening to. Too often the debate
:11:18. > :11:21.seems to have descended into whether Scotland will be better off or not
:11:22. > :11:25.without England, as if it is in England's gift what Scotland gets by
:11:26. > :11:28.staying in the union, and I think that as a result, the better
:11:29. > :11:34.together campaign have really missed an opportunity there. Going it alone
:11:35. > :11:38.is the only way Scotland can choose its own course say those campaigning
:11:39. > :11:42.for a yes vote. But in a town where the union flag is used to lure
:11:43. > :11:47.tourists into shops, this is an argument many do not understand. I
:11:48. > :11:52.think the politicians so far have upset Scotland. People in Scotland.
:11:53. > :11:56.So it is difficult what to do. Can you see why they might want
:11:57. > :12:01.independence? You have a geerlt because you don't have to pay for
:12:02. > :12:06.your tablets you get free prescriptions. The English are
:12:07. > :12:12.detached from it. We think it won't affect us, whereas it is not true.
:12:13. > :12:16.Many people here do have an opinion on the independence referendum, but
:12:17. > :12:18.you have to prod them and then the questions start coming back, what
:12:19. > :12:22.are the issue, what are the argument, what are people in
:12:23. > :12:25.Scotland thinking when it comes to the vote on September 18th? And
:12:26. > :12:31.crucially the one question I have been asked a lot, is how close is
:12:32. > :12:36.this race between yes and no? Does it matter if people here and across
:12:37. > :12:39.the rest of the UK get involved in this debate? Better together
:12:40. > :12:43.certainly think so, they have organised a call centre in London to
:12:44. > :12:49.call people up in Scotland to ask them to vote no. The yes campaign
:12:50. > :12:52.say it is one-to-one conversations they are having on the doorstep with
:12:53. > :12:57.neighbours and friends that will make the difference, not being told
:12:58. > :13:05.what do by the rest of the UK. I have no spur to prick the sides of
:13:06. > :13:08.my intent. But only vaulting ambition which falls on the other.
:13:09. > :13:13.People here will have no part to play when it comes to the vote in
:13:14. > :13:18.September. Some may watch from the wing, others will want a front row
:13:19. > :13:21.seat. People in England, do you think that I will wake up, perhaps
:13:22. > :13:25.get to a point where they go goodness, something is happening
:13:26. > :13:30.north of the border? When the Commonwealth Games are opened
:13:31. > :13:35.Glasgow it will be obvious there is something going on in Scotland. I
:13:36. > :13:38.think the Commonwealth Games will be an important opportunity for those
:13:39. > :13:44.arguing for the yes cause in Scotland, to make the case that
:13:45. > :13:49.Scotland is a nation capable of asserting itself on the world stage,
:13:50. > :13:53.and of course, the month before the referendum that is a powerful
:13:54. > :13:58.potential opportunity for the nationalist and the yes campaign. It
:13:59. > :14:02.obviously suits their timetable very well, to have the Commonwealth Games
:14:03. > :14:07.so close to the referendum. The flag that has marked 300 years of accord
:14:08. > :14:11.is taken down to mark England's National day. There is now five
:14:12. > :14:17.months until the finale in Scotland, unty we -- until we know whether
:14:18. > :14:22.this could be or could not be the shape of things to come. I am joined
:14:23. > :14:27.by two residents of England who are taking a keen interest in the
:14:28. > :14:30.referendum. The writer Tariq Ali and the historian Tom Holland. Good
:14:31. > :14:34.evening, thank you for joining me. First to owe Tariq Ali, you are a
:14:35. > :14:41.keen supporter of Scottish independence, is this a gut feeling
:14:42. > :14:46.or based more on hard hearted, hard headed economic arguments? It is not
:14:47. > :14:50.just economic argument, it is a mistake to look at it purely from
:14:51. > :14:57.that point of view. There is a strong political argument, that
:14:58. > :15:02.effectively Scotland is now so close to becoming independent, because
:15:03. > :15:07.large numbers of people working class people, intellectual, a real
:15:08. > :15:13.mix, feel that the compact with which nay agreed, and which they
:15:14. > :15:18.supported wholeheartedly in 1945, the Attlee Government's social
:15:19. > :15:22.reforms creating social democracy, has now been dumped and they are not
:15:23. > :15:28.happy with it. Much less happy with the dumping of that social
:15:29. > :15:34.democratic compact than appears in England. I think that is what has
:15:35. > :15:38.brought about a revival of this new, modern, forward looking social
:15:39. > :15:43.democratic nationalism in Scotland. That is what it is all about. Do
:15:44. > :15:48.you, Tariq Ali, see the problem as being Westminster rating, you were
:15:49. > :15:53.calling it a Vassell state, are you almost saying this is the way that
:15:54. > :15:57.Scotland can prosper away from this Vassell state as you put it. Yes,
:15:58. > :16:02.David Cameron's remark that the United Kingdom is a success story is
:16:03. > :16:08.of course is a complete joke. It is mired in crises, a number of its
:16:09. > :16:13.politicians as we read every day are mired in corruptions of various
:16:14. > :16:18.sorts, it is not an example that appeals to many countries, other
:16:19. > :16:24.countries in the world, and independent Scotland could actually
:16:25. > :16:28.do that. I mean, the example here is Norway's separation from Sweden,
:16:29. > :16:33.which was agreed by the Swedish Parliament, the Norwegians wanted it
:16:34. > :16:37.and erelations remained close and Norway has developed extremely well,
:16:38. > :16:42.so... OK, so I want to put that to Tom Holland. What do you make of his
:16:43. > :16:46.argument there, that Westminster has failed the people of the UK and
:16:47. > :16:50.Scotland as seeking a way out and Scots are looking at that way out?
:16:51. > :16:57.There is always an inherent excitement, the prospect of kicking
:16:58. > :17:01.over the traces, and Tariq Ali can't see a status quo without wanting to
:17:02. > :17:05.have a go at it. But I think there is also a waking passion in people,
:17:06. > :17:09.who want to keep Britain the way it is. I have to say that I am
:17:10. > :17:15.surprised at myself, how passionate I have come to feel about this
:17:16. > :17:20.issue. I would go so far as to say I have, I have never been as upset
:17:21. > :17:24.about anything as the prospect of Scotland leaving. Ultimately, that
:17:25. > :17:27.is not to do with any of the issues that we have been talking about. It
:17:28. > :17:33.is not do with the issues that are in in newspapers, not about oil or
:17:34. > :17:37.pensions or Trident. It goes back to something as visceral as the jigsaw
:17:38. > :17:42.puzzle I made when I was a child and particularly liking the images of
:17:43. > :17:47.Scotland on it. It goes back to going to Glasgow and Edinburgh and
:17:48. > :17:52.reading Scottish authors and and feeling this is the most beautiful
:17:53. > :17:57.area in Great Britain and feeling it is simultaneously an alien part but
:17:58. > :18:00.it is a part of me. I think that increasingly the English will feel
:18:01. > :18:04.that, they will wake up to the prospect of what they risk losing,
:18:05. > :18:09.if Scotland decides they no longer want to stay with England. Tom
:18:10. > :18:15.Holland, given what Tariq Ali has said, many Scots feel the United
:18:16. > :18:18.Kingdom is not working for them in this 21st century Scotland, you
:18:19. > :18:23.sound like you are harking back do your childhood as it were. I think
:18:24. > :18:29.that I think there is always the desire, everyone has a desire to
:18:30. > :18:34.make their country better. The temptation is, it is like a midlife
:18:35. > :18:39.crisis temptation, if only you buy the motorbike, if only you get the
:18:40. > :18:44.girl, if only you roar off out of your dull life everything will
:18:45. > :18:47.change. I think that is delosery. I think Tariq Ali says the United
:18:48. > :18:55.Kingdom is a failure, I am not convinced that is the case. We have
:18:56. > :18:59.a stable, broadly tolerant, broadly peaceable society, which, compared
:19:00. > :19:03.to many other countries has been a great success. Let us put
:19:04. > :19:07.these.sback to Tariq Ali. He is painting the United Kingdom as a
:19:08. > :19:11.successful, well-organised country, where people are economically
:19:12. > :19:15.prosperous and happy in that, of course, he is almost talking about
:19:16. > :19:19.British nationalism, what do you say back to him? Well, I mean I would
:19:20. > :19:25.disagree with him, obviously. There is a tiny part of southern England
:19:26. > :19:30.which is doing very well, that is London, and the areas round it. The
:19:31. > :19:35.rest of the country is not doing well at all. As anyone will tell
:19:36. > :19:39.you. The figures we are getting from the Midlands, the figures we are
:19:40. > :19:43.getting from the north of England, are pretty awful, and the figures
:19:44. > :19:49.for Scotland are not good, which is why the Scots are decided seriously
:19:50. > :19:54.to go it on their own. But... Honestly, the argument that, you
:19:55. > :20:01.know, people in England will not be able to visit Scotland or see the
:20:02. > :20:07.sights or shop or buy their whisky, it is absurd. Tariq Ali, the counter
:20:08. > :20:10.point is the social list argument, the Labour argument as Gordon Brown
:20:11. > :20:14.was saying yesterday, that in the United Kingdom there is a pooling
:20:15. > :20:19.and sharing of resources, that is spread evenly across the United
:20:20. > :20:23.Kingdom, and of course, would be a possibility of permanent
:20:24. > :20:28.Conservative Governments in our UK. I don't agree with that necessarily.
:20:29. > :20:32.I think an independent Scotland could curiously enough have a
:20:33. > :20:36.positive effect in Britain, and in England as well. It could open up
:20:37. > :20:41.English politics, shake it out of its lethargy where you have three
:20:42. > :20:45.mainstream parties, all believing in effectively the same thing and
:20:46. > :20:48.create a debate as to how England should move forward. Already there
:20:49. > :20:52.are people talking about London having more powers, so I think an
:20:53. > :20:57.independent Scotland will aid that a great deal. It will open England up.
:20:58. > :21:02.Tom, speaking about London, England, do you think Westminster has woken
:21:03. > :21:05.up to what could happen in Scotland? Are people in Westminster
:21:06. > :21:09.complacent? I have no idea. I am not part of the Westminster
:21:10. > :21:12.establishment. What I know is I agree there are things that are
:21:13. > :21:16.wrong in Britain, but what I think is that we are better working
:21:17. > :21:20.together, to solve those problem, than Balkanising ourself, because if
:21:21. > :21:24.the argument is things are going wrong in the north, what do we do?
:21:25. > :21:32.Bring back Northumbria? If things are going wrong in the Highlands, do
:21:33. > :21:37.we bring bact Pictland. That will result in fragmentation of Britain.
:21:38. > :21:43.We have a unity and 300 years of shared history. Together we have
:21:44. > :21:48.created things, and we have achieved things that have gone forward. And
:21:49. > :21:54.we can continue to do that. Tom, you speak about 300 years of shared
:21:55. > :21:59.history but Scotland had 800 years when the pickets and the Scots
:22:00. > :22:06.joined, so do you not see there is merit in that? Of coursing, if we go
:22:07. > :22:12.back 1200 years the kingdoms of Scotland and England didn't exist. I
:22:13. > :22:18.would not imagine that Alex Salmond would want to see Scotland fragment.
:22:19. > :22:22.Do you want to come back on that Tariq Ali? I don't think that is
:22:23. > :22:27.going to happen. Effectively an independent Scotland will be both
:22:28. > :22:31.different from the United Kingdom, but also will be part of this
:22:32. > :22:36.region. No-one is proposing, no-one, either on the left in Scotland, or
:22:37. > :22:41.the nationalist centre is proposing any different, and the example I
:22:42. > :22:47.come back to is the example of Norway and Sweden, both get on very
:22:48. > :22:51.well. Both travel; etc, etc. OK. Tariq Ali and Tom Holland, we will
:22:52. > :22:57.have to leave it there. Thank you both for joining me.
:22:58. > :23:02.Now, before we go let us look at tomorrow's papers. First in The
:23:03. > :23:07.Scotsman we have Kenny MacAskill in U-turn on radical law change. Of
:23:08. > :23:17.course an emotional Andy Murray there in Stirling when he was
:23:18. > :23:23.receiving the freedom of the city. In the Daily Telegraph:
:23:24. > :23:41.And in the Guardian we have stop your sons joining Syria war. That is
:23:42. > :23:44.all we have time for tonight. I am back at the same time tomorrow, from
:23:45. > :23:46.all of us on the Newsnight Scotland team. Do have a very good night. Bye
:23:47. > :23:59.for now. Rain continues to spread east
:24:00. > :24:02.overnight, heavy showers fade from south-west England and Northern
:24:03. > :24:07.Ireland, a chilly start down to the south-west of the UK in the morning,
:24:08. > :24:09.patchy fog too, Wales, Midlands, southern England slowly clearing and
:24:10. > :24:11.a day of some sunshine