08/05/2014

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:00:00. > :00:00.that he can no longer control. We will have the latest on the

:00:00. > :00:14.crisis tomorrow, when Mark will report on Victory Day in Moscow.

:00:15. > :00:18.Tonight on Newsnight Scotland, we are being asked to go out an vote

:00:19. > :00:22.for the members of the European Parliament but why does little, if

:00:23. > :00:27.any of what the parties are saying have anything do the Parliament? Why

:00:28. > :00:32.are voters so reluctant to exercise their right as citizens of the EU?

:00:33. > :00:35.And willure Lokions ever be taken seriously by politicians or the

:00:36. > :00:41.public? -- and Will euro elections. The past

:00:42. > :00:44.few years have seen the usual dramatic increase in media coverage

:00:45. > :00:50.of Europe which is fair enough. But much of the Europe coverage seems to

:00:51. > :00:54.been slanted to domestic politics, either as a proxy battle over

:00:55. > :00:58.Scottish independence or EU membership or the next UK general

:00:59. > :01:05.election, is that what is it is about? First, Huw Williams reminds

:01:06. > :01:11.us of some of the odd venues parties have used to pitch their votes. My

:01:12. > :01:15.fellow friend, time to get your glad ration on, invite your friends over.

:01:16. > :01:20.Only hours till people across Europe get to vote for the creme de la

:01:21. > :01:26.creme of the continent's talent. I am talking of course about the

:01:27. > :01:30.European Parliamentary elections. On May 22nd. The Scottish Conservatives

:01:31. > :01:36.pitch is based on renegotiating a whole relationship with the European

:01:37. > :01:39.Union. Or else we are off. We need to ring-fence financial service,

:01:40. > :01:49.Glasgow, Edinburgh are affected by this. The EU tried to interfere to

:01:50. > :01:53.impose taxes. Ring-fence it. Deep water oil, E. You interfered. Pull

:01:54. > :01:57.it back, stop that happening I spent four years working for the Scottish

:01:58. > :02:02.fisherman's federation, an area where the EU has been anything but

:02:03. > :02:06.helpful. Stop it. Ring-fence it. There are six Scottish MEPs,

:02:07. > :02:10.everyone will be watching to see if the Greens can rob the Scottish

:02:11. > :02:14.Liberal Democrats of their place in the Parliament. The Green Party is

:02:15. > :02:19.offering the people of Scotland an opportunity to vote for the politics

:02:20. > :02:22.of hope. Politics that is stands against austerity, with people who

:02:23. > :02:27.are suffering from the economic crisis. It's a politics that stands

:02:28. > :02:33.with people who come to Scotland, to be part of our economy and our

:02:34. > :02:38.culture, it stands against the nuclear aggression and the failed

:02:39. > :02:40.systems of nuclear alliances. Last time round, in 2009, the for

:02:41. > :03:10.the first time ever in a Last time round, in 2009, the for

:03:11. > :03:16.make sure that we tackle tax evasion at the European level. We will try

:03:17. > :03:20.to solve the banking crisis. The Liberal Democrats, of course,

:03:21. > :03:23.aren't giving up without a fight. We are out with a strong message, we

:03:24. > :03:27.are saying to people this election is about jobs, and economic

:03:28. > :03:31.recovery, we believe as a party, that if we want to secure the jobs

:03:32. > :03:35.that are linked to Europe, over 300,000, if be want to secure our

:03:36. > :03:40.economic recovery we have to stay in Britain, and in the European Union.

:03:41. > :05:14.Even here will be watching to see if the euro election results give

:05:15. > :05:19.Even here will be watching to see if international politics at the

:05:20. > :05:24.university there. Christian Kaunert, give us context on this. All the

:05:25. > :05:28.debate in Britain, about the European elections seems to have

:05:29. > :05:32.virtually nothing to do with what the European Parliament does, or is

:05:33. > :05:38.likely to do over the next few years, is that the case all round

:05:39. > :05:41.Europe? Well, indeed it is very unfortunate that in Britain the

:05:42. > :05:46.debate is very much about whether Britain should be a member of the

:05:47. > :05:51.European Union, which incidentally Britain has been since 1973. It is

:05:52. > :05:56.not really so much about whether you know whether we should have more

:05:57. > :06:00.austerity, less austerity, whether the euro needs to be saved or any of

:06:01. > :06:05.those kind of issues that matter for most European countries at the

:06:06. > :06:08.moment. I wouldn't say that the debate in Britain is very

:06:09. > :06:15.representative for Europe as a whole. If you look at different

:06:16. > :06:18.national debates you can find quite peculiar national flavours, but what

:06:19. > :06:23.makes the debate in Britain a little bit outstanding here, is that

:06:24. > :06:26.introspecktive perspective, whether it is about whether Britain should

:06:27. > :06:30.be part of the European Union and not so much about what the European

:06:31. > :06:35.Union should be about, that is very much to be regretted and in fact,

:06:36. > :06:40.you could argue that debate between Nick Clegg and Nigel Farage, and

:06:41. > :06:45.align that, even emphasise that, that is very much about that instead

:06:46. > :06:49.of being about content. Lesley Riddoch, do you deprecate this?

:06:50. > :06:55.There appears to be no debate here about what the European Parliament

:06:56. > :06:58.should be doing. Well, sure, welcome to everyone who has fled the Nigel

:06:59. > :07:03.Farage zone on the other channel tonight, because that is really what

:07:04. > :07:09.has happened, the debate has been captured by what seems easier for

:07:10. > :07:13.journalists. It is not just Nigel Farage, even before Nigel Farage had

:07:14. > :07:16.ever been heard of, ahead of European elections, it was a debate

:07:17. > :07:22.about whether or not Britain should be in the European Union or not.

:07:23. > :07:25.Alex and I both came toe night from a debate where one person was not

:07:26. > :07:30.from Britain put it very well and said that you are stuck here

:07:31. > :07:34.discussing process, where the rest offure rope is discussing issue,

:07:35. > :07:40.another speaker said there is a vacuum here because we can't take

:07:41. > :07:43.our own democracy seriously, European Europe is too distant. He

:07:44. > :07:49.pointed out the number of correspondents already from papers

:07:50. > :07:57.and the BBC across Europe and in European countries has dwindled to

:07:58. > :08:02.nothing. We we know everything ability how a state in the US might

:08:03. > :08:05.vote in a Presidential election but nothing about how Angela Merkel

:08:06. > :08:10.might get re-elected. We are basically to an extent we are

:08:11. > :08:15.reaping what we have sown. I should say our European editor

:08:16. > :08:20.might take exception so what you just said. Is it inevitable any

:08:21. > :08:25.debate will have nothing do with the European Parliament and everything

:08:26. > :08:28.to do with domestic politics? It is not inevitable. It is the case in

:08:29. > :08:31.this country and think for a perfectly understandable and good

:08:32. > :08:35.reasons, after all most of the issues the European issues that

:08:36. > :08:39.affect people in the United Kingdom aren't really issued where the

:08:40. > :08:42.European Parliament is the pre-eminent organisation, they are

:08:43. > :08:45.issues that are discussed at heads of Government level, and with the

:08:46. > :08:48.Commission, it is not really a question of what the European

:08:49. > :08:50.Parliament does and people don't really see a link between the

:08:51. > :08:54.European Parliament and their ordinary live, and I think that is

:08:55. > :09:02.reasonable enough, it is after all the fourth tier of politics, there

:09:03. > :09:07.is only so much people can expected to take notice of. To put European

:09:08. > :09:13.elections on top of that and expect people to be fascinated by detail of

:09:14. > :09:26.the Common Agricultural Policy seems to be taking an optimistic view.

:09:27. > :09:29.Actually, there's a good reason for not being interested in the

:09:30. > :09:35.elections because the European Parliament doesn't actually do

:09:36. > :09:45.anything important. There seems to be a contradiction here. If we were

:09:46. > :09:50.to believe UKIP, the flip side of that argument is that the European

:09:51. > :09:57.Parliament has quite a lot to do with that policy because most

:09:58. > :10:05.legislation needs eco-decision of the European Parliament. If the

:10:06. > :10:11.European Union is so powerful, that there is a reason for UKIP to

:10:12. > :10:17.exist... The other side of that is the point Alex is making, which is

:10:18. > :10:23.that every big decision of the European Union which affects how the

:10:24. > :10:30.European Union will be has to be agreed by national governments,

:10:31. > :10:40.whether or not the European Parliament plays a more important

:10:41. > :10:49.than it used to. The aren't daft. -- electorate. Of course. But they are

:10:50. > :11:01.on equal footing for 80% of the legislation. There is a point

:11:02. > :11:04.there, a genuine issue about whether this isn't just asking people to

:11:05. > :11:10.vote for something which they know doesn't have much meaning for their

:11:11. > :11:18.lives. There is a contradiction about the big scary monster that

:11:19. > :11:23.UKIP is worried about Andy powerless institution we can dismiss. In fact,

:11:24. > :11:28.it is the case that the three main parties in the UK, none of them are

:11:29. > :11:32.members of a larger European group which is putting forward a

:11:33. > :11:35.presidential candidate. It's that lack of follow-through that makes

:11:36. > :11:39.incomprehensible to people to know what they are voting for. It looks

:11:40. > :11:46.like we are putting for a Parliament like Holly wrote, but it's not like

:11:47. > :11:50.that. It is great we would have -- it is great if we could have

:11:51. > :11:58.candidates with faces people could understand. Maybe a socialist future

:11:59. > :12:02.or green future. That would let people understand about the

:12:03. > :12:08.movements and pulses in European thinking which we had been excluded

:12:09. > :12:13.from because England is not very interested, frankly. The reality is

:12:14. > :12:22.this campaign has been all about UKIP, at least in the UK. Are they a

:12:23. > :12:25.flash in the pan? Yes no. They will clearly do extremely well,

:12:26. > :12:34.particularly in England. I suspect they will do better than many people

:12:35. > :12:38.Scotland. But it is perfectly reasonable for the press to use this

:12:39. > :12:44.in terms of the Westminster election and what impact UKIP can have on the

:12:45. > :12:52.2015 election, particularly the extent to which it will damage the

:12:53. > :12:59.conservative's chances. Remember, for every ten voters vote in 2015,

:13:00. > :13:05.no more than six were built in the European Parliament elections and

:13:06. > :13:09.again, UKIP voters are extremely motivated, so we can expect them to

:13:10. > :13:14.turn out in great numbers. They will proceed in terms of the Westminster

:13:15. > :13:19.but election will not disappear entirely. I would be surprised if

:13:20. > :13:23.they won seats in the Westminster election but they influence matters

:13:24. > :13:30.and they clearly have a constituency that takes a very pessimistic view

:13:31. > :13:36.Britain's present day, let alone its future circumstances. But there is

:13:37. > :13:45.room for a party that represents an alienated population. There was a

:13:46. > :13:51.survey yesterday saying 60% of people who said they would vote for

:13:52. > :13:54.UKIP in the European elections would consider it in the general

:13:55. > :14:03.elections. I presume you are trying to say is that related into a 10%

:14:04. > :14:07.UKIP vote, that would have serious consequences for the Conservatives

:14:08. > :14:16.in the general elections. Yes. It would make impossible for David

:14:17. > :14:21.Cameron to remain Prime Minister. It will be difficult enough for the

:14:22. > :14:25.Conservatives as it is. There is a micro picture in terms of the

:14:26. > :14:29.national polls and recovering economy which gives the

:14:30. > :14:36.Conservatives reason for hope in 2015, but the micro picture becomes

:14:37. > :14:40.difficult to see which seem to see which sees the Tories didn't win in

:14:41. > :14:49.2010 that they have a realistic chance of winning in 2015. What do

:14:50. > :14:54.you make of the UKIP phenomenon? One of the odd things of Europe is that

:14:55. > :15:01.if you ask a lot of people, should we get out of the European Union?

:15:02. > :15:08.Many will say yes. If you ask people, how important is Europe? It

:15:09. > :15:14.is way down the list, which is presumably be problem you came IP

:15:15. > :15:21.might have at the problem the Eurosceptics and Conservatives had

:15:22. > :15:25.for years. -- the problem UKIP. Europe seems to be important for

:15:26. > :15:31.voters. On the other hand, it doesn't seem to be so important to

:15:32. > :15:39.them. There is something here that is followed European integration

:15:40. > :15:46.over decades. It used to be permissive consensus. A lot of

:15:47. > :15:50.people are not too bothered about European integration and going along

:15:51. > :15:55.with it. In Britain, that has changed. You might have

:15:56. > :16:01.non-permissive consensus in Britain, where people are not favourable

:16:02. > :16:08.towards European integration but at the same time, it doesn't swing the

:16:09. > :16:12.vote. I wonder what you make of what Alex said and what influence I have

:16:13. > :16:17.on the independence referendum campaign because if you listen to a

:16:18. > :16:21.lot of people on the yes side, they try to paint it as a nightmare

:16:22. > :16:25.scenario of another Conservative government, will majority

:16:26. > :16:29.Conservative government in Britain. The better UKIP look like doing in

:16:30. > :16:33.the British general election, the less chance there is of a Tory

:16:34. > :16:39.government and less motivation people will have for voting yes.

:16:40. > :16:44.Look at some of the things UKIP have been saying and ask yourself if you

:16:45. > :16:55.can imagine these guys in government or even welding seats down! --

:16:56. > :17:00.holding. Alex isn't suggesting they would be in government. He is

:17:01. > :17:03.suggesting they might have sufficient votes to deprive the

:17:04. > :17:08.Conservative party of any chance of an overall majority. I am imagining

:17:09. > :17:13.the relevance of this is to try and ask how that might impact of the

:17:14. > :17:18.Scottish referendum. What I am trying to answer is the prospect of

:17:19. > :17:23.UKIP having any power, any which way, even being elected, even the

:17:24. > :17:28.fact we are sitting discussing this to light, is unbelievable to a lot

:17:29. > :17:32.of people who look at the kind of policies of the Mickey Mouse party

:17:33. > :17:38.that hasn't even had the time to take seriously what it would do with

:17:39. > :17:43.a Scottish Parliament, which it wanted to abolish, and is taking

:17:44. > :17:51.votes from working class people. We need to leak -- look at some depth

:17:52. > :17:55.at this party. Polls are suggesting they might get 10% of votes in

:17:56. > :18:04.Scotland than 30% of votes south of the border. One of the things that

:18:05. > :18:11.UKIP is seen to represent is a protest vote against people that

:18:12. > :18:21.don't like the Westminster/ Scottish elite. That's not unique to Britain,

:18:22. > :18:28.is it? Absolutely. If we look right across Europe, we see a number of

:18:29. > :18:41.parties right across UKIP. -- right across Europe. Then taking the

:18:42. > :18:45.solution to that problem, that foreigners are to blame, because of

:18:46. > :18:50.the Bulgarians and Romanians in Polish, we have that issue and that

:18:51. > :18:55.exists right across Europe. We are in tough economic times, so it is

:18:56. > :19:02.not too surprising. Why do you think UKIP doesn't do as it does in

:19:03. > :19:08.England? It is harder to break into a four party system than a three

:19:09. > :19:14.party system. UKIP is part of an internal Tory civil war and there

:19:15. > :19:20.are fewer Conservatives in Scotland. The people who think that there is

:19:21. > :19:24.no difference between Labour and the Tories and the Liberals in England

:19:25. > :19:31.are tentative Yuki Abbey and the people in Scotland who think there

:19:32. > :19:36.is no difference between... -- are tempted to vote UKIP.

:19:37. > :19:41.And lastly, a quick look at what'll be in the headlines tomorrow. Good

:19:42. > :19:44.Morning Scotland on BBC Radio Scotland will be looking at the

:19:45. > :19:47.Defence Secretary's latest view of what happens to Trident in the event

:19:48. > :19:50.of independence. Newsnet Scotland website says Johann Lamont is being

:19:51. > :19:54.challenged over figures on A waiting times she used in the

:19:55. > :20:03.Parliament today. And a look at some of the printed papers. Scottish law

:20:04. > :20:20.to tackle domestic abuse. We will have to take the rough with

:20:21. > :20:25.the smooth through this weekend. Friday is far from settled. Rain

:20:26. > :20:30.across northern areas in the form of showers. The best of the sunshine

:20:31. > :20:38.further south. This is a snapshot for 4pm. Sharp showers around and

:20:39. > :20:43.they could be slow-moving because the winds won't be particularly

:20:44. > :20:46.strong. Cloudy and cruel and showery across northern England. Sharp

:20:47. > :20:50.showers across eastern counties but many central and southern parts of

:20:51. > :20:56.England and Wales will see bright and breezy weather and a better day

:20:57. > :20:57.than Thursday. The odd shower around but it will