:00:05. > :00:09.This programme contains strong language.
:00:10. > :00:13.What a difference day makes. Tonight, following a Newsnight
:00:13. > :00:17.investigation, the Crown Prosecution Service has launched an
:00:17. > :00:21.independent inquiry into the Mark Kennedy undercover cop case.
:00:21. > :00:25.This time last night I revealed evidence that showed the CPS had
:00:25. > :00:29.failed to disclose information they held about the undercover policeman
:00:29. > :00:36.at a criminal trial. This vital information could have prevented
:00:36. > :00:39.the convictions of 20 environmental campaigners. So was it incompetence
:00:39. > :00:44.other a deliberate attempt to conceal. We have a reaction from
:00:44. > :00:48.the head of the CPS, Kier Starmer. I have decided to set up an
:00:48. > :00:52.independent inquiry, headed up by a senior legal figure, to work in
:00:52. > :00:55.tandem with the IPCC investigation. The Archbishop of Canterbury
:00:55. > :00:58.preaches on politics, a stinging attack on raft of Government
:00:58. > :01:03.policies that he says nobody voted for any way. Tonight, the
:01:03. > :01:06.Government returns fire. All I'm saying to the Archbishop
:01:06. > :01:10.today is you are more than welcome to tell me in secret and public
:01:10. > :01:14.that I need to modify certain things, please don't come and tell
:01:14. > :01:18.me that what I am doing some how is setting out to punish people.
:01:18. > :01:21.the Arab Spring melts into summer, we have been to meet student who is
:01:21. > :01:26.feel their voices alone are not enough.
:01:26. > :01:31.I have come to the Gaza strip, one of the most enclosed societies on
:01:31. > :01:41.earth. To find out what freedom the Arab Spring can bring to
:01:41. > :01:43.
:01:43. > :01:46.Palestinians here. Good evening, the strange case of the
:01:46. > :01:51.environmentalist, the undercover police officer, and the attack on a
:01:51. > :01:58.power station that never actually took place has already given rise
:01:58. > :02:01.to seven distinct inquiries, today the number rose to eight, when the
:02:01. > :02:03.Director of Public Prosecutions called for a senior judge to
:02:03. > :02:08.investigate evidence, first revealed on this programme last
:02:08. > :02:14.night, that the Crown Prosecution Service had misled the courts and
:02:14. > :02:19.broken its own rules. Richard Watson who has pursued this
:02:19. > :02:24.story from the start is with us? is one of the rare journalistic
:02:24. > :02:27.moments where you can see cause and effect. The story concerns 26
:02:27. > :02:31.environmental campaigner who is were due to take environmental
:02:31. > :02:39.action at Radcliffe on soar power station in the East Midlands -
:02:39. > :02:44.Radcliffe on sore power station in the East Midlands. The role of Mark
:02:44. > :02:48.Kennedy was not known to the group, he had infill traited them and was
:02:48. > :02:53.gathering evidence at that time - infiltrated the group and was
:02:53. > :02:56.gathering evidence against them. After some insidious work by
:02:56. > :03:00.environmental campaigner, that fatally then undermined the
:03:00. > :03:04.prosecution case. The trial of the second tranche of these people, six,
:03:04. > :03:09.collapsed in January this year, immediately the CPS said that they
:03:09. > :03:14.had only just discovered this extra new information concerning the
:03:14. > :03:17.undercover activities of Mark Stone. Last night we revealed that is not
:03:17. > :03:22.the case, there were senior lawyers in the CPS discussing the
:03:22. > :03:30.sensitivites of this case back as far back as 2009. Last night on the
:03:30. > :03:36.programme we had the former Director of Public Prosecutions
:03:36. > :03:42.saying this is extremely serious, it is his pressure that we have
:03:42. > :03:49.seen in the CPS today. The inquiry conducted by an independent figure
:03:49. > :03:54.is much more likely to gain public confidence and get to the truth.
:03:54. > :03:58.And when you are looking at such a serious situation where a number of
:03:58. > :04:03.people might have been acquitted due to the absence of the material,
:04:03. > :04:06.you need a public inquiry. How has the CPS responded?
:04:06. > :04:09.first response was interesting, their first response was to launch
:04:10. > :04:15.an internal review inside the CPS, which they said was completed on
:04:15. > :04:19.the 21st March. It seems that internal review didn't uncover some
:04:19. > :04:24.crucial information about the knowledge of some CPS lawyers about
:04:24. > :04:27.the activities of Mark Stone. My colleague, Peter Marshall today,
:04:27. > :04:32.spoke to Kier Starmer, the director of the public prosecution, this is
:04:32. > :04:35.what he had to say. What I have decided today is to set up an
:04:35. > :04:40.independent inquiry, headed by a senior legal figure, to work in
:04:40. > :04:46.tandem with the IPCC investigation. The idea is that together they can
:04:46. > :04:50.look at the conduct of the police and the CPS together, accessing all
:04:50. > :04:53.the same material and share their findings. Who has primacy at the
:04:53. > :04:57.end, when they come to the conclusion? There is no primacy,
:04:57. > :05:00.that is why this particular arrangement has been set up. I was
:05:00. > :05:03.very keen that there should be a consistent approach, and the
:05:04. > :05:07.conduct of both sides, the police and the CPS, should be looked at by
:05:07. > :05:11.reference to the same material. is a disturbing situation, what
:05:11. > :05:15.seemed to happen in your department on your watch? I'm not going to
:05:15. > :05:18.predetermine the conclusions. I would not have set up this
:05:18. > :05:23.arrangement if I wasn't taking the issues very seriously. This has
:05:23. > :05:27.been a huge long-running case, do you think the independent inquiry
:05:27. > :05:31.will find the answers for some of the critics? To give the CPS some
:05:31. > :05:34.credit, clearly they have moved their position from having an
:05:34. > :05:37.internal review into an individual inquiry with a senior judicial
:05:37. > :05:40.figure. That must be welcomed by most people. However, I think the
:05:40. > :05:45.defence lawyers and the campaigners themselves, will be unhappy with
:05:45. > :05:49.this. There have been a shrew of inquiries, really. And what defence
:05:49. > :05:53.lawyers like Mike Schwarz, who is representing these campaigners says,
:05:53. > :05:56.is that there should be one overarching inquiry. One gets the
:05:56. > :06:01.impression that the authorities are making it up as they go along. This
:06:01. > :06:05.is on my last count the seventh or eighth inquiry set up. What is
:06:05. > :06:09.needed is a single organisation with power teeth in respect of the
:06:09. > :06:12.public, looking independently and authoritatively at all of the
:06:12. > :06:15.issues. The issues including things like the operation and
:06:15. > :06:20.accountability of undercover police officers. Disclosure by the police
:06:20. > :06:23.and the CPS, looking at all of these issues. We have such a bod he
:06:23. > :06:31.yoo, the Court of Appeal looking at the safety of the - body, the Court
:06:31. > :06:35.of Appeal looking at the safety of the convictions, the 26 activists
:06:35. > :06:40.convicted last year. I'm joined by my guest, one of the defendants in
:06:40. > :06:44.the case, Oliver Knowles, whose case collapsed when the undercover
:06:44. > :06:52.cop's evidence came to light. Oliver Knowles, you must be pretty
:06:52. > :06:57.pleased with what's happening to? I'm not, - today. I'm not, another
:06:57. > :07:01.day another inquiry, this is number eight. The problem is each of the
:07:01. > :07:06.inquires is looking at an isolated component of the bigger picture. We
:07:06. > :07:10.don't have a single inquiry that is looking at the breath of the story,
:07:10. > :07:14.the undercover police investigation, the role of PC Kennedy, now the
:07:14. > :07:18.role of the CPS. I think we need that. Up until yesterday we had
:07:18. > :07:22.police investigating police, we had the Crown Prosecution Service
:07:22. > :07:26.investigating the Crown Prosecution Service, we need an overarching
:07:26. > :07:29.inquiry that gives us all those answers. This is an independent
:07:29. > :07:33.inquiry announced by Kier Starmer a very distinguished judge will take
:07:33. > :07:37.it on. Are you not prejudging it to say it is not enough? There are so
:07:37. > :07:39.many serious issues down on the table, the allegations in the last
:07:39. > :07:43.couple of days that the Crown Prosecution Service have been
:07:43. > :07:48.suppressing evidence is part of that. But there are many other
:07:48. > :07:52.serious issues. We have police officers who are routinely using
:07:52. > :07:57.sex to solicit information from activists, we have police officers
:07:57. > :08:05.alleged to have acted as agent provokeures. We have police
:08:05. > :08:08.officers - provocatures, we have police officers working for private
:08:08. > :08:16.investigation companies and selling that to corporations. There are a
:08:16. > :08:22.huge range of issues. We don't have somebody stepping back and looking
:08:22. > :08:28.at the information. You were minister of policing 2006-2008, how
:08:28. > :08:32.do you responded to to the inquiry? I understand the problem about
:08:32. > :08:35.inquiryitis, and so many reviews. What has happened in this case is
:08:35. > :08:41.serious enough that it is right that the CPS have given it to an
:08:41. > :08:46.independent legal figure, I think he said, we shall see, and deals
:08:46. > :08:49.with the complexties and what went wrong with the specific case. I
:08:49. > :08:54.equally agree there should be a wider look at, I'm not sure of the
:08:54. > :08:58.vehicle that looks at lessons from the specifics in this case, larger
:08:58. > :09:02.lessons around undercover policing generally and how that is
:09:02. > :09:09.controlled. Even Hugh Ord said in February that ACPO should no longer
:09:09. > :09:12.do it, or senior officers shouldn't do it on a retrospective basis, the
:09:12. > :09:15.judges should sanction the operations in the first place.
:09:15. > :09:22.was wrong with the operation, there were plenty of operations under
:09:22. > :09:27.your watch. This particular unit its funding doubled under your
:09:27. > :09:34.leading? Much of that would have been in areas not linked to the
:09:34. > :09:38.sort of protests that Oliver was involved in. There needs to be a
:09:38. > :09:42.real debate, I think, almost about the politics of policing and the
:09:42. > :09:46.politics of protest, that says when is it appropriate to have
:09:46. > :09:49.undercover police work, there are cases when it would be entirely
:09:49. > :09:53.appropriate. We heard there were vast amounts of money being wasted
:09:53. > :09:57.in those operations? Maybe longer term, all that needs to look at, or
:09:57. > :10:04.needs looking at I don't really know the ins and outs of the
:10:04. > :10:09.details. We need to sort out this case. We need to have proper
:10:09. > :10:12.protocols and transparn sis in place about undercovering policing,
:10:12. > :10:17.and a wider approach to politics and policing.
:10:17. > :10:21.This seems to get out of hand including the period when you were
:10:21. > :10:24.a minister. I accept that. What I'm saying is these are operational
:10:24. > :10:29.matters and matters for the CPS, none of these matters should be
:10:29. > :10:34.matters that ministers should be involved in at all. That way lies
:10:34. > :10:44.madness, which is why the crime and policing commission is a bad idea,
:10:44. > :10:46.
:10:46. > :10:50.bonkers. Getting to the Centre of confidence, and conspiracy is an
:10:50. > :10:54.issue, these are real concerns about democracy, they need
:10:54. > :10:57.addressing. It is all around case that didn't result in anyone going
:10:58. > :11:00.to prison, it was around an attack on a power station that didn't
:11:00. > :11:03.actually happen. Oliver, an enormous amount of public money
:11:03. > :11:07.will be spent on this case, do you think we have got it out of hand
:11:07. > :11:13.and are reading too much into it? That is the core question here.
:11:13. > :11:18.Quet is, to what extent was this operation - quite, to what extent
:11:18. > :11:22.was this operation proportional, on whose remit? The action if it had
:11:22. > :11:27.gone ahead would have certainly stopped carbon emissions, it would
:11:27. > :11:32.have cost large corporation some money, but it was, at so no point,
:11:32. > :11:35.a threat to the public. Millions of millions of pounds, and thousands
:11:35. > :11:39.of hours of policeman power was spent looking into this operation.
:11:39. > :11:43.To what end? That is why I talk p the politics of protest. He were
:11:43. > :11:48.going to, at some stage, break the law. It is not for me or you to
:11:48. > :11:50.determine what laws should be broken or otherwise, but there are
:11:50. > :11:54.fundamental elements to the policing of it and the
:11:54. > :11:57.proportionality of it. If people start to worry that this is common
:11:57. > :12:01.practice, the CPS now working ever more closely with the police, that
:12:01. > :12:05.has been part of the policy to work more closely s that the ultimate
:12:05. > :12:09.danger of this, that people will not trust what the CPS is doing,
:12:09. > :12:13.what the police is doing what they are doing together? It chips away
:12:13. > :12:17.at the integrity and objectivity of the CPS and the police and,
:12:17. > :12:23.ultimately, the right to protest, which is why I agree there should
:12:23. > :12:32.be a wider debate, even around whether Kennedy, how much he was
:12:32. > :12:37.provoking and having a provocateur role. You think that Kier Starmer's
:12:37. > :12:41.position is rather safe, you think, it is rather late to come to this
:12:41. > :12:43.and there are serious allegations to this? I won't prejudge the
:12:43. > :12:48.review, let's have the independent review and see what it does and see
:12:48. > :12:54.what it does to the CPS internal processes. This is why we need the
:12:54. > :13:01.bigger overarching inquiry. It starts the Court of Appeal, it has
:13:01. > :13:03.to. We have 20 activists who have conviction that is may not be safe.
:13:03. > :13:07.I'm sure a lot more public money will be spent.
:13:07. > :13:09.Tell us how you really feel, Archbishop. Today the head of the
:13:09. > :13:12.Church of England said the Government of this country was
:13:12. > :13:15.scaring people with radical long- term policies which nobody voted
:13:15. > :13:20.for, raising questions about the nature of our democracy.
:13:20. > :13:22.That's not the first time that a sitting Government has taken brick
:13:22. > :13:30.bats from the Clergy, on this occasion the Government in question
:13:30. > :13:35.has come out fighting. It has been a bit of a hellish week
:13:35. > :13:42.for the Government. Backtracking on NHS reforms and on prison sentences,
:13:42. > :13:47.the last thing they expected...was damation from the church (thunder
:13:47. > :13:51.claps) As guest editor of the New Statesman, the Archbishop of
:13:51. > :13:55.Canterbury points to bafflement and indignation over health care
:13:55. > :13:58.reforms, he says we are being committed to radical, long-term
:13:58. > :14:04.policies, for which no-one voted. The Prime Minister's response was,
:14:04. > :14:07.well, dam you too. The darpblg Bishop of Canterbury
:14:07. > :14:12.should be entirely - the Archbishop of Canterbury should be entirely
:14:12. > :14:17.free to express his views. I can say I entirely disagree with the
:14:17. > :14:22.issues he has expressed, particularly on debt, welfare and
:14:22. > :14:27.education. This found a February of the Conservative Christian
:14:27. > :14:34.fellowship saying that the Archbishop needs to make sure
:14:34. > :14:39.Anglicanism needs to remain there. It is important that the leader of
:14:39. > :14:43.a flock that is in decline not to create more disunity. He should
:14:43. > :14:47.only speak on a subject if he's really certain of his argument. I'm
:14:47. > :14:50.afraid this is a little bit typical of the Archbishop of Canterbury, it
:14:50. > :14:54.is quite academic, hard to understand some of the points he's
:14:54. > :14:58.making, yet he has generate add lot of controversy, I think with very
:14:58. > :15:01.little gain. Let's example some of the
:15:01. > :15:06.Archbishop's proclaimations in greater detail. Politicians don't
:15:06. > :15:09.really treat their manifestos as tablets of stone, often in
:15:09. > :15:13.Government policies that were proposed at the election time can
:15:13. > :15:16.be ditched, others produced. But is there really any basis for him to
:15:16. > :15:22.say that no-one voted for the current health and education
:15:22. > :15:25.reforms. It is true that the specific
:15:25. > :15:28.reforms for the NHS were in neither manifesto, although the
:15:28. > :15:33.Conservatives did mention a reform plan that would give every patient
:15:33. > :15:35.the power to choose any health care provider that meets NHS standards
:15:35. > :15:39.and the Liberal Democrats said Primary Care Trusts would be
:15:39. > :15:43.replaced. As for education, the Liberal Democrats proposed a pupil
:15:43. > :15:47.premium and the Conservatives put forward a plan for the schools
:15:47. > :15:51.revolution. Neither manifesto said that tuition fees would go up.
:15:51. > :15:54.With neither party able to command a majority on their own, the bigger
:15:54. > :15:59.question is do they have a man died? It is interesting when we
:15:59. > :16:01.look at the vote share last year and back in 2005, actually the
:16:01. > :16:05.Conservatives received a greater proportion of the national vote in
:16:05. > :16:08.2010, than the Labour Government in 2005, the coalition Government have
:16:08. > :16:11.had to make compromises, and actually they have had to give in
:16:11. > :16:15.both the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats, and now actually
:16:15. > :16:18.the public need to hold the Government accountable to the
:16:18. > :16:21.coalition agreement, rather than what they said in the manifestos.
:16:21. > :16:24.When you are looking at mandate before the general election,
:16:24. > :16:28.particularly in our country, we haven't had a coalition since the
:16:28. > :16:34.1920s, then you look at one party, you don't look at what the
:16:34. > :16:38.combination might be. So we're in a new game and situation. It is not
:16:38. > :16:41.very far between the Archbishop's residence here at Lambeth Palace
:16:41. > :16:44.and the politicians at Westminster. You could say it is little more
:16:44. > :16:49.than shouting distance away. But sometimes it seems as though there
:16:49. > :16:53.is a much bigger gulf between church and state. In this week's
:16:53. > :16:56.New Statesman, one of the guest contributors is none another than
:16:56. > :17:00.the Work and Pensions Secretary, Iain Duncan Smith, but apparently
:17:00. > :17:03.he didn't know just how critical the guest editor was going to be.
:17:03. > :17:06.Downing Street apparently weren't told about the Archbishop's
:17:06. > :17:10.comments until yesterday. But compared to previous spats between
:17:10. > :17:14.the Government and the Church of England, there is far less fire and
:17:14. > :17:18.brimstone in this particular encounter. In 1985, during Mrs
:17:18. > :17:24.Thatcher's second term, the then Archbishop of antbury, Robert
:17:24. > :17:27.Runcie, published Faith in the City. Setting out 23 recommended details
:17:27. > :17:32.to Government, more a mini- manifesto than a work of scripture,
:17:32. > :17:37.it called for higher child benefit payments, more council housing and
:17:37. > :17:40.assisting families in poverty without stigma. The current
:17:40. > :17:44.Archbishop of Canterbury chides Labour for not giving a full
:17:44. > :17:47.account of what they would do differently. His criticism of the
:17:47. > :17:52.Big Brother society is based as much on presentation as policy,
:17:52. > :17:55.calling the phrase itself "painfully tale". I support The Big
:17:55. > :17:58.Idea society as an intellectual project, it is important for the
:17:58. > :18:03.Prime Minister to realise people don't get it still, despite a
:18:03. > :18:06.number of relaunches and a number of prime ministerial speeches. I
:18:06. > :18:10.would like the Government to actually talk much more about the
:18:10. > :18:15.things very concrete things that it is going to help people out of
:18:15. > :18:25.poverty. But on welfare reform, the Archbishop is more outspoken,
:18:25. > :18:27.
:18:27. > :18:31.I note Iain Duncan Smith is saying today he's not talking about the
:18:31. > :18:34.deffering or undeserving poor. A lot of commentary coming from the
:18:34. > :18:38.Conservative Party, particularly from the backbenches, and a variety
:18:38. > :18:42.of media sources close to the current Government, are actually
:18:42. > :18:48.saying exactly those things, and that does start to create
:18:48. > :18:54.divergence and conflict within society, which is not constructive.
:18:54. > :18:58.Westminster's garage goils are supposed to ward off evil spirits,
:18:58. > :19:02.but the Government mighting comprising ways of keeping a man of
:19:02. > :19:05.the cloth in the distance while taking painful decisions.
:19:05. > :19:15.I caught up with the Work and Pensions Secretary, Iain Duncan
:19:15. > :19:15.
:19:16. > :19:19.Smith, and asked him how he reacted to the Archbishop's remarks. Are
:19:19. > :19:22.you worried the Archbishop of Canterbury thinks this Government
:19:22. > :19:26.lacks legitimacy? I would be worried he made the statement, I
:19:26. > :19:29.think he's wrong. He's allowed to stay what he wants. He's wrong
:19:29. > :19:32.about that. The point about democracy is you accept what the
:19:32. > :19:36.public decide at the ballot box, they decided they didn't want any
:19:36. > :19:38.one of the three parties that were the main parties, they chose the
:19:38. > :19:43.Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats to form a coalition.
:19:43. > :19:47.That's what we have done. We are proceeding on the bays of our
:19:47. > :19:51.manifestos merged - basis of our manifestos merged together with
:19:51. > :19:54.some things brought in. He doesn't think it is reasonable. He says the
:19:54. > :20:02.widespread suspicion that this has been done fortuneistic and money-
:20:02. > :20:06.saving reasons allows many to dismiss what there is of a
:20:06. > :20:10.manifesto. The Government needs to hear how much plain fear there is
:20:10. > :20:13.around such questions at present. It is not helped by the quiet
:20:13. > :20:17.resurgeonence of the seductive language and deserving and
:20:17. > :20:19.undeserving poor. Does it bother you that the Archbishop of
:20:19. > :20:23.Canterbury says this about your Government? It doesn't, I don't
:20:23. > :20:27.agree with him in his final conclusions. I would ask him what
:20:27. > :20:30.he really thinks democracy is all about, with whether or not at the
:20:30. > :20:37.ballot box at the time of the election was set in concrete,
:20:37. > :20:41.nothing changes when events change. When you see the circumstances of a
:20:41. > :20:44.problem are when they unfold in Government you do nothing because
:20:44. > :20:48.you didn't spell it out at the time of an election. Democracy and life
:20:48. > :20:51.is not, that it may be like that in church, but it is not like that in
:20:51. > :20:55.Government. Do you think there is such a thing that there is a
:20:55. > :20:59.deserving or undeserving poor? have never used that language, I
:20:59. > :21:02.don't believe in, that I believe a system we have created, that has
:21:02. > :21:06.become so complex and counter- productive, that rewards bad
:21:06. > :21:10.behaviour, and penalises people who try, those want to go get back to
:21:10. > :21:13.work. What is bad behaviour, I'm interested, if you are looking it
:21:13. > :21:16.cuts you are introducing, the benefit cap, it looks like bad
:21:16. > :21:20.behaviour is having a lot of kids, they are being penalised for having
:21:20. > :21:24.a lot of kids? The system now, if you want to go back to work, even
:21:24. > :21:27.as a lone parent if you go back, the only point of work you could
:21:27. > :21:31.enter in part-time work is 16 hours, the last Government said that was
:21:31. > :21:35.the only bit they would support you on. If you did hours more or less
:21:35. > :21:40.you will lose at rates of 97p in the pound for every pound you earn.
:21:40. > :21:44.What a disincentive to work your way out of problems. By the way you
:21:44. > :21:47.might need ten hours not 16 hours because you have caring
:21:47. > :21:50.responsibility. The system we have set is so complex because it takes
:21:50. > :21:54.money away from people that need to have more money, secondly, they
:21:54. > :21:57.don't understand the system. The point I am a making here is that
:21:57. > :22:00.system penalises the people when they try to do the right thing.
:22:00. > :22:05.That is a negative point. On the point of the cap, which you asked
:22:05. > :22:09.about, which I will come back to, it is simply establish ago very
:22:09. > :22:14.simple point. Tax-payers need a bit - establishing a simple point. Tax-
:22:14. > :22:19.payers need fairness too. People in my constituency work for fairly low
:22:19. > :22:23.incomes, they get up early and commute long distance, they work
:22:23. > :22:26.hard, they don't want to see people on benefits in places and in houses
:22:26. > :22:29.they could never afford if they were back in work. They say there
:22:29. > :22:34.is a fairness to say average earnings is a reasonable point to
:22:34. > :22:39.say nobody should be earning on benefits more than average earnings,
:22:39. > :22:43.more than I am earning working hard on low earnings. It seems as if you
:22:43. > :22:46.are punishing people who are unemployed, and those who have
:22:46. > :22:49.children, many Christians might be worried that your punishing
:22:49. > :22:52.children in the families? I don't believe we are, all the
:22:52. > :22:55.arrangements we have made for the housing benefit changes, we will
:22:55. > :22:59.help people where they have to move and change. That is a process that
:22:59. > :23:03.we will go through. The key point I want to make about the cap, which
:23:03. > :23:09.is simply to say, look, this point about fairness cuts both ways, both
:23:09. > :23:12.those on benefits wrecksed into to support - need to support and help
:23:12. > :23:16.them, we are doing that with the reforms to the benefits system and
:23:16. > :23:20.the back to work programme. The key thing is, however, we recognise
:23:20. > :23:23.tax-payers, paying this money, often on average are on low
:23:23. > :23:26.earnings themselves, want to recognise that people on benefits
:23:26. > :23:30.aren't in a position to be able to live a life on a higher level of
:23:30. > :23:33.income than they get. It is interesting you say that, in the
:23:33. > :23:37.past you are a committed Christian, you have spoken about this issue,
:23:37. > :23:40.with the sense of someone who actually saw it also as a moral
:23:40. > :23:46.obligation to try to bring people out of dependency, is that right,
:23:46. > :23:49.that you actually feel it is partly a moral duty to bring people out of
:23:49. > :23:53.poverty and dependency on benefits? It is a personal commitment of mine
:23:53. > :23:56.to make sure that the system I reform is a system that benefits
:23:56. > :24:00.the poorest in society. The Universal Credit that we are
:24:00. > :24:03.bringing forward, 85% of the gains will go to the bottom 40% in
:24:03. > :24:07.society, it will lift nearly a million people out of poverty as a
:24:08. > :24:10.result of the benefit changes. policies do you point to in the
:24:10. > :24:14.Government that show that this is a Government that a Christian can
:24:14. > :24:17.support, what kind of policies would you point to? I have never
:24:17. > :24:22.gone after a Christian vote in my life, I don't intend to start now,
:24:22. > :24:26.I go after people's rational. hear the Archbishop of Canterbury,
:24:26. > :24:30.and ask is this a Government at odds with the main religion of this
:24:30. > :24:33.country, how would you reassure them? It isn't about, that he's
:24:33. > :24:35.wrong, because whether you are a Christian or not a Christian.
:24:36. > :24:39.should ask yourself a simple question, is it fair that somebody
:24:39. > :24:43.who wants to try to do the right thing, says to me, which they do
:24:43. > :24:47.all the time, it is not worth my while entering the world of work
:24:47. > :24:50.because I get penalised if I do, is it right to have families, three
:24:50. > :24:53.and four generations right now who have never held a job in their
:24:53. > :24:57.lives. And children are growing up for the first time, in my
:24:57. > :25:00.recognition, never believing they will outdo their parents in their
:25:00. > :25:03.future careers, this is an absurdity. This is the moral point.
:25:03. > :25:08.If people want to talk about morality, I asked the question to
:25:08. > :25:11.the Archbishop, why has he not said that this system is fundamentally
:25:11. > :25:16.broken, it is in his standpoint immoral to trap people in this
:25:16. > :25:20.position. He should be out speaking about this, alongside us, yes, to
:25:20. > :25:24.say, watch what you are doing here, be careful of what you are doing
:25:24. > :25:28.here, I fully accept, we are open to, that that is what I and the
:25:28. > :25:34.Liberal Democrats debate every day, are we being too hard here, nobody
:25:34. > :25:37.is trying to punish anybody. What we are trying to do is create
:25:37. > :25:40.finally system that rewards those that make the effort and assists
:25:40. > :25:44.those when they did, that is not here today.
:25:44. > :25:48.He just don't get t the Archbishop of Canterbury doesn't get morality?
:25:48. > :25:52.I don't know whether he gets morality or not, he's the bishop
:25:52. > :25:58.and more or less there. You are making a moral point about the
:25:58. > :26:01.society? The big point here, if you believe in it you can say it is a
:26:01. > :26:05.moral practice, if not it is practical purpose, the two come
:26:05. > :26:09.together, the practical and moral purpose is this we can't go on
:26:09. > :26:12.having five million people and growing in number, trapped on
:26:12. > :26:16.welfare dependency, putting Ngoga back into the community, sitting on
:26:17. > :26:19.begin - putting nothing back into the community. Five million people
:26:19. > :26:22.sat for ten years under the Government without any work,
:26:22. > :26:26.written off, forgotten about, never seen by anybody, this is not right.
:26:26. > :26:31.When I came in I had a purpose to change this, all I'm saying to the
:26:31. > :26:35.Archbishop today is you are more than welcome to tell me in secret
:26:35. > :26:40.or in public that I need to modify things, please don't come and tell
:26:40. > :26:43.me that what I'm doing is setting out to punish people. It is not to
:26:43. > :26:47.punish people, but to help them do the right thing for them and their
:26:47. > :26:50.families. If you want to help that group that is a purpose about their
:26:50. > :26:53.salvation in a general sense, getting them through to work to
:26:53. > :26:56.have kids with aspiration, the answer is to work to change the
:26:56. > :27:01.system so they have a shot again, like they might have done 30 years
:27:02. > :27:06.ago, at a life that I would expect my children to live, they have a
:27:06. > :27:09.shot at that. Thank you very much. We are going to go back to the
:27:09. > :27:13.issues of religion and politics in a minute. First something
:27:13. > :27:18.completely different. After four years of turbulent rule in the Gaza
:27:18. > :27:21.strip, the Islamic militant group Hamas said this week it was
:27:21. > :27:25.considering not participating in future Government. The hope is in
:27:25. > :27:29.doing so it might help end Gaza's state of miserable isolation from
:27:29. > :27:33.the rest of the region and the world. The winds of Chiang Mai be
:27:33. > :27:37.sweeping the Middle East, but in Gaza, as usual, the direction of
:27:37. > :27:44.change is harder to read. We have been there to find out what the
:27:44. > :27:50.Arab Spring has meant for its increasingly restless population.
:27:50. > :27:54.The last few scruby miles of Egypt, the last memorial to a revolt
:27:54. > :27:59.resonating throughout the Arab world. Five hours out of Cairo, I
:27:59. > :28:05.have reached the once closed border with Gaza. Now open, Egypt says, in
:28:05. > :28:09.the spirit of democracy. Revolutions lapping at the gates of
:28:09. > :28:19.Gaza, a closed society, in several senses. I'm going through to see
:28:19. > :28:24.what changes the Arab Spring is bringing on the other side.
:28:24. > :28:30.Beyond a road through hopelessness. The sea a wall on one side, Israel
:28:30. > :28:35.a wall on the other. Egyptian youth couldn't move politically,
:28:35. > :28:40.Palestinian youth can't move at all. For all their engine power.
:28:40. > :28:50.TRANSLATION: I wish I could drive somewhere on my bike or in my car,
:28:50. > :28:56.like normal people in any other country. But we are besieged here.
:28:56. > :29:03.Surreal though it seems, you can learn to dance in Gaza. But now, by
:29:03. > :29:07.order of its Islamist rulers, Hamas, only in single-sex groups. Though,
:29:07. > :29:17.traditionally, boys and girls perform these steps together.
:29:17. > :29:19.
:29:19. > :29:24.feel sad, of course, depressed that I can't have my freedom in my own
:29:25. > :29:31.country. The Government sputing pressure on us and not allowing us
:29:31. > :29:35.to do what we love to do. Now, she has joined a group of
:29:35. > :29:40.students whose frustration finally boiled over a few months ago. In a
:29:40. > :29:48.Facebook manifesto, they cursed all the forces imprisoning them.
:29:48. > :29:53.said lock Hamas, lock Israel, lock all of it. The faction is
:29:53. > :29:57.controlling us, is trying to put every single person to be the same
:29:57. > :30:01.thing, they are trying to look at a girl like me without putting on the
:30:01. > :30:06.hijab, that is not acceptable. Under the cover saying we come from
:30:06. > :30:09.an Islamic perspective and everything, we are very
:30:09. > :30:14.conservative society, they have really kind of changed everything,
:30:14. > :30:19.and like 180 degrees changed everything. You used to look around
:30:19. > :30:23.you and see if somebody is watching you and listening you to see if
:30:23. > :30:26.something is happening. We like to stay silent, not to talk not to
:30:26. > :30:34.even think. The biggest problem which was made by the division in
:30:34. > :30:39.the last four years, is the culture of hating. The brother, if he is
:30:39. > :30:44.from Fatah and his brother from ham marks he should hate him. That is a
:30:44. > :30:48.big social problem. I didn't know, if I am young I'm not accepted, no
:30:48. > :30:53.matter what it is that I have to offer, it is not accepted. This is
:30:53. > :30:57.exactly what we revolt against. The same demand for self-
:30:57. > :31:01.determination by an ever-younger population, fuelled all the Arab
:31:01. > :31:08.uprisings. But in Gaza, it is different. They have got Israel to
:31:08. > :31:13.contend with as well as their own rulers. Any revolt here cannot be
:31:13. > :31:17.the same as in other Arab countries, for the simple reason, that this
:31:17. > :31:23.isn't an independent state. Palestinians who want change,
:31:23. > :31:27.particularly in Gaza, feel they are stuck within a series of prisons,
:31:27. > :31:31.one closed box after another. So even if they overcame the social
:31:31. > :31:36.and political restrictions imposed by their own leaders, they would
:31:36. > :31:42.still be trapped by the wider conflict in the region. That's
:31:42. > :31:47.something that Arab people power alone can't easily solve.
:31:47. > :31:52.At lost Palestinians could stop fighting one another. Confinement
:31:52. > :31:56.has bred bitter factionalism. The Islamists of Hamas, with their
:31:56. > :32:00.green banner, more interested, according to some, in crushing
:32:00. > :32:04.their fine rivals and if, Fatah, than achieving Palestinian
:32:05. > :32:11.liberation. We are sick of political games. The ridiculous
:32:11. > :32:15.game between Fatah and Hamas, that game has ruined every single
:32:15. > :32:22.Palestinian life. Every one of us here lost something. Three months
:32:22. > :32:27.ago, Roba wrote Palestine" on her face, and helped bring thousands on
:32:27. > :32:31.to the streets to call for unity among the factions. Independent
:32:31. > :32:39.protests in Gaza are very rare, they were beaten by police. Two
:32:39. > :32:44.months later, the yellow flag of Fatah, banned for the two years,
:32:44. > :32:50.appeared over Gaza. The result of political weakness on both sides
:32:50. > :32:58.they came together, the as a result of public pressure. According to
:32:58. > :33:03.this Hamas official, it could lead to a soothing of the attitude to
:33:03. > :33:06.Israel. Hamas are the resistance. My personal opinion is we have to
:33:06. > :33:12.work together. We should not now say this is the option of Hamas,
:33:12. > :33:16.this is the option of Fatah. We have to make a new strategy, mixing
:33:16. > :33:21.the political action with the resistance.
:33:21. > :33:28.If that idea flies, there could be hope for economic recovery in Gaza.
:33:28. > :33:32.Many promises of foreign aid, to turn this clip top into a pleasant
:33:32. > :33:35.promenade, have been delayed by Hamas's refusal to deal with Israel.
:33:35. > :33:42.The position of the international community is inbetween two things,
:33:42. > :33:46.one to help the Palestinian, and doesn't allow 0 to work with Hamas
:33:46. > :33:52.the Government in Gaza. The Palestinian, Hamas and BA are
:33:52. > :33:57.getting united again, and I do believe that the committee, America
:33:57. > :34:02.and Israel, will not have any reason not to co-operate with them.
:34:02. > :34:08.Already Palestinian sand is being mixed with Israeli gravel and
:34:08. > :34:13.cement to rebuild the strip. An inspector checks the concrete goes
:34:13. > :34:16.to only internationally run projects, Israel insists Hamas must
:34:16. > :34:20.not benefit. What the owner wants now is economic common sense will
:34:20. > :34:28.trump politics on both sides. You would be happy to recognise Israel
:34:28. > :34:32.as a state? TRANSLATION: No-one on earth denies the existence of the
:34:32. > :34:41.Israelis and the Palestinians. you think that the Hamas policy is
:34:41. > :34:49.going nowhere? REPORTER: When big politicians sit together, and they
:34:49. > :34:54.have the will to end problems, they will end it in ten minutes.
:34:54. > :34:57.To reflect as broader desire on the streets, now change is in the air
:34:57. > :35:03.for less ideology, and more pragmatisim.
:35:04. > :35:08.But this big man, the top Hamas leader in Gaza, seems as hardline
:35:08. > :35:14.as ever. Really we are not a negotiating regime. We have an
:35:14. > :35:21.alternative, we believe that in self-defence, in defending ourself,
:35:21. > :35:31.against the occupation, we can succeed to eliminate the occupation.
:35:31. > :35:32.
:35:32. > :35:39.Meanwhile, with interfactional hatred here, burnt into masonry and
:35:39. > :35:42.memory, nobody knows what will happen. Hamas bullets killed this
:35:42. > :35:46.man's brother, Abu Maher. TRANSLATION: In the coming days we
:35:46. > :35:51.will see if Hamas are serious or not, we will have to judge by
:35:51. > :35:57.whatever real action we see on the ground.
:35:57. > :36:02.On the ground, they are dancing. Within range of Israeli guns. This
:36:02. > :36:08.time, boys only. It is one event in day of protests all around Israel's
:36:08. > :36:15.borders, to mark the anniversary of Arab defeat, in the Six-Day War of
:36:15. > :36:19.1967. For Gaza's young activists, marches like this are part of the
:36:19. > :36:25.Palestinian Spring. But the unity deal has actually reduced the
:36:25. > :36:28.impact of this one, the main factions agreed beforehand, to
:36:28. > :36:32.limit numbers to avoid risks casualties. The small size of the
:36:32. > :36:37.demonstration, shows, perhaps, that Palestinian unity is working, but
:36:38. > :36:42.it is also a sign of how little ordinary people can achieve here.
:36:43. > :36:46.Some of the angry youths, who have been questioned, or arrested, by
:36:46. > :36:50.Hamas officials over their actism, are now pessimistic about the
:36:50. > :36:54.chances of real change here. really disappointed because
:36:54. > :36:57.Palestinians do want to come out. But they are afraid of the
:36:57. > :37:02.political factions. They are afraid of the Israelis, because everyone
:37:02. > :37:10.is working against us. As Arab Spring lengthens into Arab summer,
:37:10. > :37:12.the beach remains the only window in what so many Gazaians feel is
:37:12. > :37:18.their prison. Ripples from elsewhere in the Middle East have
:37:18. > :37:27.reached here, but the young still aren't in charge of their own
:37:27. > :37:32.desknee, and peace is no closer, without it, despite the idealism, a
:37:32. > :37:34.new generation may grow up with closed mind, the Mediterranean the
:37:34. > :37:37.broadest horizon they can ever grasp.
:37:38. > :37:41.As we were discussing earlier, the Archbishop of Canterbury has
:37:41. > :37:44.strayed once more into politic. In response we have heard not just
:37:44. > :37:47.outrage from ministers, but some traffic in the other direction w
:37:48. > :37:52.saugs that the Government has right on its - with the suggestion that
:37:52. > :37:57.the Government has right on its side. It turns to the vexed issue
:37:57. > :38:02.between religion and politics, which glib Newsnight presenters
:38:02. > :38:07.have just summarised thus, God, how would he vote?
:38:07. > :38:12.God can be hard to spot in the political landscape of modern
:38:12. > :38:16.Britain, Tony Blair was famously coy about his beliefs while still
:38:16. > :38:21.in Number Ten, David Cameron admits that his faith grows hotter and
:38:21. > :38:25.colder by moments and is not the rock it should be. Ed Miliband is
:38:25. > :38:29.even less effusive when it comes to the divine. So you don't believe in
:38:29. > :38:32.God? I don't believe in God, no, I have great respect for those people
:38:33. > :38:36.who do. However little politicians may wish
:38:36. > :38:40.to talk about him, his representatives on earth, do like
:38:40. > :38:43.to talk about politic. This week the Archbishop of Canterbury's
:38:43. > :38:48.targets were mainly coalition cuts in the big society, but in the past
:38:48. > :38:53.he has sounded off about the war in Iraq, the killing of Osama Bin
:38:53. > :38:58.Laden, bankers and Sharia Law. Inside parliament, those MPs who do
:38:58. > :39:02.profess to have some kind of faith, can be found on both sides of the
:39:02. > :39:06.chamber, apparently using their creed to guide them in debate about
:39:06. > :39:09.stem cell research, abortion and foreign intervention. How can one
:39:10. > :39:17.faith produce so many different political convictions, and whose
:39:17. > :39:22.side f any, is God really on? Well joining me in the studio are
:39:22. > :39:25.two MPs with religious conviction, from Labour, Ben Bradshaw, and from
:39:25. > :39:29.the Conservative Party party, Nadine Dorries. What is interesting
:39:29. > :39:33.to people, partly from this debate, and there is a broader issue, is
:39:33. > :39:37.how you can believe in the same faith but actually think it takes
:39:37. > :39:42.you in a completely different political direction, Ben Bradshaw,
:39:42. > :39:46.you're a practising Anglican, how does your religion take you to your
:39:46. > :39:48.political philosophy? It would be ludicrous to suggest all Christians
:39:48. > :39:52.have to be Conservatives or Labour or Liberal Democrats there are
:39:52. > :39:57.different parties within the church, there are people within the church
:39:57. > :40:01.who put more emphasis on what Nadine does, sexual immorality and
:40:01. > :40:04.abortion, others put it on social teaching and economic justice,
:40:04. > :40:09.Rowan belongs to that category of Christian, it is a strong tradition
:40:09. > :40:14.in the Labour movement. You say you chose Labour largely or partly
:40:14. > :40:18.because it reflected your religious convictions? Partly, it isth has
:40:18. > :40:23.often been said the Labour Party owes as much, if not more to
:40:23. > :40:31.methodism it is a did to Marx, that is true, it has a long conviction
:40:31. > :40:36.of coming up through the radical Anglicans in the inner city areas,
:40:36. > :40:40.and we had the radical Anglican reports. It would be ludicrous of
:40:40. > :40:44.me to suggest that the Labour Party has a monoply on faith, and it
:40:44. > :40:48.doesn't, Nadine will explain why. should ask the same question to you,
:40:48. > :40:53.how much does your faith affect where you have ended up in the
:40:53. > :40:56.political spectrum and what you do politically? None of the issues
:40:56. > :41:03.that I champion particularly, although they would be deemed to be
:41:03. > :41:07.faith issues, if I were to approach any of them from a faith
:41:07. > :41:17.perspective I would lose before I have begun, I will give an example,
:41:17. > :41:18.
:41:18. > :41:22.I moved to have the upper limit at which abortion takes place from 20
:41:22. > :41:28.weeks to 24 week - 24 weeks to 20, that was from the science and
:41:28. > :41:32.morality, it seems wrong to abort babies who could live if born at
:41:32. > :41:35.that particular gestation, although faith provide as moral framework,
:41:35. > :41:40.in which I think all political parts and individual MPs operate.
:41:40. > :41:44.It doesn't actually direct your policy. But it can direct people to
:41:44. > :41:49.fundamentally different judgments. You say you see shades of grey when
:41:49. > :41:54.it comes to abortion, you are not completely anti-abortion, but on a
:41:54. > :41:57.lot of social issues you can have Conservative Christian who is just
:41:57. > :42:01.absolutely the opposite conclusion about gay marriage, or any of the
:42:01. > :42:05.social issues, that is a religious, that comes from religion? I can't
:42:05. > :42:10.speak for other MPs, I'm sure there are MPs across the Commons, who use
:42:10. > :42:15.their faith to make their decisions. It is very interesting, because we
:42:15. > :42:19.had Catholic MPs in the House of Commons who didn't vote for the
:42:19. > :42:23.abortion amendments, and yet a fundamental tenant of the Catholic
:42:23. > :42:26.religion is life begins at conception. It is very grey and it
:42:26. > :42:31.is difficult to understand how individual MPs, who you would think
:42:31. > :42:35.were of a certain faith, would vote on certain issues in certain ways,
:42:35. > :42:39.but that is the way parliament is. What is striking about the debate
:42:39. > :42:43.today, and what the Archbishop has high loyaltyed in my interview with
:42:43. > :42:46.Iain Duncan Smith, is - highlighted in my interview with Iain Duncan
:42:46. > :42:50.Smith, is there is a fundamental way to respond to poverty. Ben
:42:50. > :42:53.Bradshaw would say, the lesson of the good Samaritan is somebody gave
:42:53. > :42:57.up their own money to help someone, they didn't ask the Government or
:42:57. > :43:01.the authorities to help the person who had been mugged, isn't it in
:43:01. > :43:04.some sense that's more the kind of thing we were hearing from Iain
:43:04. > :43:09.Duncan Smith is a more religious, is more of a Christian message?
:43:09. > :43:13.That is the point that Mrs That mucher famously made, when she was
:43:13. > :43:18.defending her policies - Thatcher made when she was defending her
:43:18. > :43:21.policies in the 80s. That is a way of getting people out of poverty,
:43:21. > :43:25.some people saying that Rowan shouldn't speak about these issues
:43:25. > :43:30.or stand up for the poor and vulnerable. If the Archbishop can't
:43:30. > :43:36.do that, how what is he supposed to do, it is basic tenet of
:43:36. > :43:39.Christianity. He feels passionate about it. The question was he was
:43:39. > :43:43.impuning the morality of people like Iain Duncan Smith? He was
:43:44. > :43:49.making the great point of view that there is bewilderment in the health
:43:49. > :43:52.policy, the policy seems to have come from nowhere, it was ruled out
:43:52. > :43:55.in the coalition agreement and causing disruption. All the
:43:55. > :43:59.independent bodies say it is the weakest and vulnerable hardest hit
:43:59. > :44:02.by the Government's policies. Tupbsable for the Archbishop to
:44:02. > :44:06.speak bout that. You said if you did talk about
:44:06. > :44:09.religion you would have lost the argument immediately? Absolutely,
:44:09. > :44:13.what I would like Rowan Williams to do, I would like, when he does
:44:13. > :44:18.speak, to speak about the issues that the people who attend his
:44:18. > :44:24.churchs are interested. On the issue of abortion, of teenage
:44:24. > :44:29.sexual health of teaching of abstinence in schools, on many of
:44:29. > :44:33.the social issues he is deafening in silence and locks himself in the
:44:34. > :44:38.ivory palaces, he never speaks on the issues that Christians are
:44:38. > :44:42.interested in. I'm not sure they are the issues, most church-going
:44:42. > :44:45.Christians are not concerned with those issues, they are concerned
:44:45. > :44:48.about social issues. They have black and white views on that?
:44:48. > :44:51.differences in the churchs are greater than in parliament. If you
:44:51. > :44:56.look at the Church of England, and the thing that Rowan is trying to
:44:56. > :44:58.do in holding that organisation together, with absolutely differing
:44:58. > :45:02.views on things like gay equality, the interesting thing is we are
:45:02. > :45:09.closer on a lot of things than people within the church itself.
:45:09. > :45:14.are, but many, many churchgoer, I know this from the abortion
:45:14. > :45:19.debate,were frustrated and angry that on such an important issue
:45:19. > :45:25.that Rowan Williams and the church remained silent. He has spoken out
:45:26. > :45:29.today, he has started? He spoke today on politics, and I'm not sure
:45:29. > :45:32.he's any better informed on the issues he spoke about than the man
:45:32. > :45:36.on the street. It was very difficult to understand some of the
:45:36. > :45:39.points that he was making, I'm not sure where he had more of an
:45:39. > :45:41.authority than anybody else to speak on the issues he talked about
:45:41. > :45:45.today. We are going to have to leave it
:45:46. > :45:51.there. We have just got time for the papers. We have got the