:00:09. > :00:14.One of the world's richest men gave away a billion dollars today to
:00:14. > :00:17.save children in the developing world from death by diarrhoea or
:00:18. > :00:20.pneumonia, with vaccines we take advantage. What is not to admire.
:00:20. > :00:25.Yet decades of aid money from western Governments have now gone
:00:25. > :00:31.to poor countries. Indeed today, David Cameron promised another �800
:00:31. > :00:37.million, and the poor and the sick are still with us. Can philanthropy
:00:37. > :00:44.really change the world. Bill Gates is here, as is the boss of
:00:44. > :00:49.GlaxoSmithKline, one of the world's wealthy drug companies, in in the
:00:49. > :00:51.next half hour they will face their critics. After that I will talk to
:00:51. > :00:55.the International Development Secretary, Andrew Mitchell who is
:00:55. > :01:01.spending �8 billion a year of our taxs in aid for the developing
:01:01. > :01:04.world. Also tonight, the mystery of the A Gay Girl In Damascus blogger
:01:04. > :01:09.solved, it wasn't the woman you saw last week on here, it wasn't a
:01:09. > :01:15.woman at all, she wasn't in Damascus and she wasn't gay, does
:01:15. > :01:20.that mean everything written was a lie.
:01:20. > :01:23.The setting was a hotel in the Square Mile of the City of London,
:01:23. > :01:28.in the four hours in which some of the richest people in the world,
:01:28. > :01:31.and some of the most powerful Governments talked, 700 children
:01:31. > :01:35.are stated to have died of diarrhoea and pneumonia. The
:01:35. > :01:38.conference at the global alliance for vaccines and immunisation, aims
:01:38. > :01:45.to put an end to - Global Alliance for Vaccines and Immunisation, aims
:01:45. > :01:49.to put an end to it, by combining the money of philanthropists and
:01:49. > :01:53.Governments and drug companies, what happens when individual
:01:53. > :02:00.donations overcomes those of states, and how can we account for the
:02:00. > :02:04.mistakes they made along the way. He made megabucks by monopolising
:02:04. > :02:09.an entire industry, he drove competitors to the wall, crushed
:02:09. > :02:18.dissent, and then gave it all away. That was Andrew Carnegie, the
:02:18. > :02:25.modern grandee of philanthropic capitalism is Gates. Today, the
:02:25. > :02:30.former Microsoft mogul was faithed, as world leaders - feted as world
:02:30. > :02:36.leaders cued up to give to his organisation, Global Alliance for
:02:36. > :02:41.Vaccines and Immunisation. I like to think of it in terms of
:02:41. > :02:45.equity. This is the first time that we can say that poor children will
:02:45. > :02:52.not be refused the vaccines that the children in the rich countries
:02:53. > :02:59.get, because there is not enough money. Since the launch of the Bill
:02:59. > :03:04.and Melinda Gates Foundation, in 1984, Gates has given away $24
:03:04. > :03:09.billion, more than half on health projects. He linked up with Warren
:03:09. > :03:13.Buffet, who has pledged to giveaway 99% of his $62 billion, to launch a
:03:14. > :03:17.spate of giving pledges by the American rich. Gates famously
:03:17. > :03:20.brings business discipline to the projects he chooses to help,
:03:20. > :03:27.demanding clear accountability from Governments and imposing strict
:03:27. > :03:31.performance targets on aid agencies. But he has his critics. If we rely
:03:31. > :03:33.on philanthropists for this clairt and this type of aid, what you lose
:03:33. > :03:36.is any kind of democratic accountability. The people in
:03:36. > :03:39.developing countries on the receiving end of this aid, they
:03:39. > :03:45.have no structures through which they can challenge whether it is
:03:45. > :03:48.going to the right thing or not. 2007, Gates' spending on health was
:03:48. > :03:52.bigger than the annual budget of the World Health Organisation. In
:03:52. > :03:56.fact, the foundation is now recognised as one of eight big
:03:56. > :04:00.agencies which informally determine global health policy. A status,
:04:00. > :04:04.which, said a study in the Lancet, confers power and influence on a
:04:04. > :04:13.selected number of organisations, and establishs leverage over the
:04:13. > :04:19.voice of civil society. Gates' detractors say by focusing
:04:19. > :04:22.on top-down technical solutions to specific diseases, you may limited
:04:22. > :04:26.long-term sustainable health services in these countries. The
:04:26. > :04:30.sheer dependance of charities, universities, research institutions
:04:30. > :04:34.on foundation money means it is a lot easier to find critics in the
:04:34. > :04:38.world of computing, than it is in development. They are accountable,
:04:38. > :04:42.there is nowhere to hide in the world, the media, all of you guys
:04:42. > :04:45.keep us all under the spotlight. In way Bill Gates is probably more
:04:45. > :04:48.under the spotlight than other people. There is other ways of
:04:49. > :04:52.holding him to account. We had a mass phone call with the British
:04:52. > :04:57.public the other day, people could ring in and send questions that he
:04:57. > :05:00.had to answer F they want to they it put him under the spotlight.
:05:01. > :05:07.Most people believe that Bill Gates has made a massive difference.
:05:07. > :05:10.Bill Gates has done, is to cede the market for a new kind of
:05:10. > :05:14.philanthropy, over the next ten years Governments will take over
:05:15. > :05:18.the vaccination project, their upfront cash will measure in much
:05:18. > :05:23.more bang for bucks. At the same time Governments too have adopted
:05:23. > :05:26.the Gates' approach, the private sector for the channel for
:05:26. > :05:31.philanthropic funds, the global agencies not currently the flavour
:05:31. > :05:35.of the month. The UK Government has cut its funding to the
:05:35. > :05:38.International Labour Organisation, and the United Nations Industrial
:05:38. > :05:42.Development organisation, which is trying to build up developing
:05:42. > :05:45.countries' industrial state. It has cut its funding to grassroots
:05:45. > :05:49.groups in developing countries and in Britain trying to build the
:05:49. > :05:53.campaigns against tax dodging and injustice and trade and all of
:05:53. > :05:56.those things. That means you will get a short-term focus on aid, but
:05:56. > :06:00.none of the long-term results of global justice trying to bring
:06:00. > :06:04.development to the poor in that long-term benefit.
:06:05. > :06:09.When it comes to dealing with global poverty, Bill Gates has, in
:06:09. > :06:14.the space of a decade, changed the game. But the challenge remain,
:06:14. > :06:18.tonight, one person in seven, on the planet, will go to sleep hungry,
:06:18. > :06:28.one in four live in absolute poverty. Two-and-a-half though
:06:28. > :06:33.people will die today of Malaria. We are joined now by Bill Gates of
:06:33. > :06:37.the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. By Andrew Witty of the
:06:37. > :06:41.drug gind, GlaxoSmithKline, and Richard Sezibera, until recently
:06:41. > :06:44.the Rwanda Health Minister, and on the board for the Global Alliance
:06:44. > :06:49.for Vaccines and Immunisation. In a moment we will talk to some critics,
:06:49. > :06:53.for the moment let's talk about what you are trying to do, Gates.
:06:53. > :06:58.Aid agencies have been at this, Governments at it, what can you do
:06:58. > :07:02.as a philanthropist that they can't do? Aid agencies have had great
:07:02. > :07:09.result, over 20 million children a year under the age of five died
:07:09. > :07:11.back in 1960, now it is under nine million. What we can do is
:07:11. > :07:16.accelerate that improvement by getting the very latest vaccine
:07:16. > :07:20.that is the rich countries take for granted and getting them out to the
:07:20. > :07:24.poor kids. That will save millions of additional lives. Why do you
:07:24. > :07:29.want to spend your money in that way? I want to spend my money to
:07:29. > :07:35.take the greatest inequity, the fact that these children die, and
:07:35. > :07:43.get rid of that. Vaccines are the miracle intervention that allows
:07:43. > :07:51.that to happen. Why is this our problem? It's the world's problem.
:07:51. > :07:58.Every death anywhere in the world is a death unhumanity. There has
:07:58. > :08:02.been a lot of success, immunisation rates are up across the African
:08:02. > :08:09.continent, infant mortality rates are down, fewer children are dying,
:08:09. > :08:12.because of the intervention of an alliance like the Global Alliance
:08:13. > :08:19.for Vaccines and Immunisation. It is amazing what has happened now,
:08:19. > :08:24.we have access to more vaccines against pneumonia, against
:08:24. > :08:31.diarrhoea, against now cancer, certificate value cancer. Countries
:08:31. > :08:35.in Africa that are unable to vaccinate against pneumonia are now
:08:35. > :08:38.able to do so. You were quoted yesterday saying the drug companies
:08:38. > :08:43.had not been responsible citizens in the past, but there is a change
:08:43. > :08:48.of heart occurring. In what way were they not responsible citizens?
:08:48. > :08:52.During the 1980 and 1990s and the industry was growing and forming
:08:52. > :08:56.itself into what it became people weren't focused on this agenda. I
:08:56. > :08:59.think it was wrong, it is late getting focused on the agenda, but
:08:59. > :09:04.it has done. Over the last eight years you have seen a tremendous
:09:04. > :09:09.shift in where the industry was. You have even the Gavi Alliance
:09:09. > :09:13.come into place 1 years ago, the industry has come - 11 years a the
:09:13. > :09:16.industry has recognised that. It is in all our interest. It is public
:09:16. > :09:21.relations isn't it? People expect in the west, whether in America or
:09:21. > :09:23.Europe, people expect to see pharmaceutical industries
:09:23. > :09:28.contribute to societies less well off, people expect to see that.
:09:28. > :09:32.Within my organisation the majority of the people who work for us, the
:09:32. > :09:36.single biggest reason they would quote for why they work for us is a
:09:36. > :09:39.contribution to human health, not just rich people's human health,
:09:39. > :09:44.but everybody. Those are the drivers that make us look for ways
:09:44. > :09:50.to contribute to this agenda. everyone in the aid community
:09:50. > :09:55.agrees with the Global Alliance for Vaccines and Immunisation aims and
:09:55. > :09:59.methods. The organisation, Medecins sans frontier, or Doctors Without
:09:59. > :10:04.Borders, as they call themselves in mark, they believe it can be done
:10:04. > :10:10.better. Daniel Berman speaks for them on access for medicine. What
:10:10. > :10:14.do you worry about here? What I worry about is that, although we
:10:14. > :10:19.really appreciate the involvement of GlaxoSmithKline, we have to be
:10:19. > :10:26.honest, because of a relationship that we feel is a little bit too
:10:26. > :10:30.close between the Gates Foundation and donors and companies, we feel
:10:30. > :10:33.we are paying too much. The pneumococcal vaccine, you haven't
:10:33. > :10:37.talked about, that you have mentioned a little bit about how it
:10:37. > :10:44.is financed. This is a product widely available in the wealthy
:10:44. > :10:49.countries, there is the market there. In fact, the problem is
:10:49. > :10:54.there is a $225 million subsidy that is going to Glaxo Smith clean
:10:54. > :10:58.and Pfizer, I would like to Mr - GlaxoSmithKline, and Pfizer, I
:10:58. > :11:03.would like to ask Mr Gates where do you do it that way. They were told
:11:03. > :11:06.that it was blocked by patents and if there was help in overcoming
:11:06. > :11:09.patents the pneumococcal vaccine would be on the market. I know IP
:11:09. > :11:15.has been very important in your business, I guess that puts you in
:11:15. > :11:18.a difficult situation. Intellectual Property, you mean? When I'm giving
:11:18. > :11:23.money away, I bring a strong business sense to make sure it is
:11:23. > :11:28.very well strength. When we created the group that helps purchase this
:11:28. > :11:33.mum know cock kal vaccine, we researched what does it d number
:11:33. > :11:36.cock kal vaccine, we researched what does it cost to produce, there
:11:36. > :11:41.was not the capacity to serve the world. By getting people together
:11:41. > :11:46.to make a commitment, it allowed companies, including GSK, to spend
:11:46. > :11:50.a lot of money. What we are getting in terms of saving lives, in any
:11:50. > :11:54.organisation should celebrate what happened today, and what's going to
:11:54. > :11:58.happen with these lives saved. You would think it would be MSF. This
:11:58. > :12:02.is medicine at work, this is medicine at its best, we are saving
:12:02. > :12:06.millions of lives. There is no foolishness about the costs here.
:12:06. > :12:11.Mr Gates I think that we totally agree on the mission, I think we
:12:11. > :12:14.agree with GSK, we vaccinate ten million children a year, we're with
:12:14. > :12:20.you there, we believe the more vaccines out there the better, we
:12:20. > :12:27.are talking about how the money is used. In fact, this scheme with the
:12:27. > :12:30.subsidy was actually created to stimulate development when there
:12:30. > :12:33.weren't vaccines. I don't think it is right to use the vaccine in this
:12:33. > :12:40.scheme. Can I specifically address that, on
:12:40. > :12:48.a couple of points you raise. In terms of intellectual property or
:12:48. > :12:53.patents getting in the way, as far as GSK is concerned are there any
:12:53. > :12:56.material patents in pneumococcal vaccines, nobody has asked us about
:12:56. > :13:03.that. You have a number of other companies developing their own
:13:03. > :13:08.version of products, it is straight, just a second, it is wrong to say
:13:08. > :13:14.IP is a problem. In terms of incentivisation, it is interesting
:13:14. > :13:19.to look back, the first pneumococcal vaccine was in the
:13:19. > :13:22.1990s, there was a limit of capacity production, the Gavi
:13:22. > :13:25.Alliance saw this as a major opportunity in the developing world
:13:26. > :13:32.and aimed to stimulate the activity. What this incentive is, the first
:13:32. > :13:35.few years the vaccine is on the market, we achieve a price of $7 a
:13:35. > :13:38.dose, that is very substantially lower than people are paying in the
:13:38. > :13:42.west, then this drops. People in the west are paying more, so people
:13:42. > :13:47.in the poorer world pay less? make no apology for that.
:13:47. > :13:50.accept that is what's happening? are very transparent about teir
:13:50. > :13:55.price, people in the richest countries pay most, and the middle,
:13:55. > :14:00.the middle, and the poorest less. Some lives are more valuable than
:14:00. > :14:05.others? It is unreasonable to expect somebody in the poorest
:14:05. > :14:08.countries to contribute to share profits and R & D in the future.
:14:08. > :14:12.But the National Health Service? is to try to make access is
:14:12. > :14:16.achieved. That story you just said needs to be researched. I was
:14:16. > :14:22.directly involved in the process with the GAVI board, I was part of
:14:22. > :14:25.a committee, I resigned from that committee, Mr Gates, because you
:14:25. > :14:30.loaned five McKinsey consultants to that committee, it was to lower
:14:30. > :14:34.price force the GAVI committee. How can the consultants help us lower
:14:34. > :14:39.prices when they cult with companies like Mr Witty's. I'm
:14:39. > :14:43.worried about the relationship between GAVI. Answer that question?
:14:44. > :14:46.The reason I give to GAVI and I feel so great about the pricing
:14:46. > :14:51.they achieve, is the experts understand what these things cost.
:14:51. > :14:57.We have spent the money to understand that, and yes, it is
:14:57. > :15:01.very smart people from all over from McKinsey, I have spent time on
:15:01. > :15:05.these things, these prices are coming down because we want to save
:15:05. > :15:09.more lives. Time is on our side in innovation. I want to ask one
:15:09. > :15:14.question, Mr Sezibera, why don't your Governments buy these drugs
:15:14. > :15:18.direct? Because we can't afford them. That is the simple answer. I
:15:18. > :15:22.would like to welcome industry, what industry is actually doing
:15:22. > :15:27.with teir pricing is exactly what Governments across the world and in
:15:27. > :15:31.the developing world do. Through social health insurance schemes you
:15:31. > :15:36.make sure the more well off pay relatively for more their health
:15:36. > :15:40.than the poorests, what they are doing is absolutely right, it is
:15:40. > :15:44.the thing that makes the vaccines available to the poorest in the
:15:44. > :15:49.world and makes Governments able to deliver the vaccines to the world,
:15:49. > :15:53.it is the right thing to do. Our second critic is Doane from the
:15:53. > :15:57.World Development Movement, they believe that much of GAVI's work
:15:57. > :16:02.doesn't get at the real underlying problems in the world today. What
:16:02. > :16:05.is your anxiety today? Few would disagree with vaccinating millions
:16:05. > :16:10.of children, you can't disagree with that, I think the issue we
:16:10. > :16:16.have is it is a bit of a distraction, so these sorts of top-
:16:16. > :16:20.down, business-led philanthropic solutions, distract from the bigger
:16:20. > :16:24.picture, that is this, it is all well and good to be vaccinated
:16:24. > :16:28.against preventable disease, but if you send those families back out
:16:28. > :16:31.and they don't have land on which to farm because it is grabbed by
:16:31. > :16:35.big corporates, because of land grabbing, or they can't feed their
:16:35. > :16:39.families because of speculation on food price, on food commodity
:16:39. > :16:42.prices because they are spending 90% of their income on every day
:16:42. > :16:48.food stuffs and they can't educate their children. All of these things
:16:48. > :16:53.will be lost, we will have the same discussion in 20 years time. The
:16:53. > :16:57.reason the biggest issues aren't dealt with, one more point, is you
:16:57. > :16:59.could look at progressive taxation could be far more important,
:16:59. > :17:03.dealing with global monoplies could be far more important, enabling
:17:03. > :17:09.people to have the policies to feed themselves would be a much more
:17:09. > :17:14.effective solution for dealing with poverty than vaccination programmes.
:17:14. > :17:18.This is about the children and the mothers of those children, and
:17:18. > :17:21.whether we take the technology that every rich child takes for granted
:17:22. > :17:25.and make it available. If she has a scheme to change the economic world
:17:26. > :17:29.order, that's all well and good. In the meantime let's not the millions
:17:29. > :17:33.of children die. That's why you choose health as
:17:33. > :17:38.opposed to any other aspect of development? I'm involved in many
:17:38. > :17:43.aspects of development. This is the priority of the moment? We do
:17:43. > :17:46.things at the same time, we do agriculture, sanitation. You don't
:17:46. > :17:51.think you get in the way of Governments? I think children dying
:17:51. > :17:55.is not a good thing. I don't think any mother wants to see her
:17:55. > :17:59.children die. These vaccines are about saving those lives.
:17:59. > :18:03.accusations not you think it is a good thing, no-one thinks it is a
:18:03. > :18:06.good thing that children die. have been dying, only with the
:18:06. > :18:12.generosity we saw today, only by getting the prices down will their
:18:12. > :18:15.lives be saved. If we spent more of our time, in developing public
:18:15. > :18:20.health programmes. One of the concerns we have, much like MSF, is
:18:20. > :18:24.we are seeing public health and public interests sidelined, over
:18:24. > :18:27.these technocratic solution, in the instance of vaccinations they
:18:27. > :18:32.favour big pharma, in the interests of when we are looking at another
:18:32. > :18:40.development which I know you look in, we are looking at solution that
:18:40. > :18:43.is favours big agri solutions rather than small. There is a bid
:18:43. > :18:46.price, lowest price for vaccines comes in, vaccines are public
:18:46. > :18:49.health, they are the centre of public health, they are the
:18:49. > :18:53.greatest victory of public health in awful history, that is why we
:18:53. > :18:57.are down from 20 million dying a year. There is a question here of
:18:57. > :19:01.accountability too, Governments are accountable to their citizens, they
:19:01. > :19:06.win power, they lose power by the judgments they make. Who are you
:19:06. > :19:12.accountable to when you decide to make these, what everyone agrees
:19:12. > :19:18.are well meant interventions? Anyone who buys a product, if you
:19:18. > :19:23.buy a car, if you buy a house, you're exercising, you are taking
:19:23. > :19:28.your success and expressing your values. My values are that all the
:19:28. > :19:32.wealth I have should go back to society, and it should help the
:19:32. > :19:36.very poorest. And as I looked at all the ways to help out the
:19:36. > :19:41.poorest, vaccinations rose to the top of the list as the way to
:19:41. > :19:47.change their lives. The kids who live, if they don't get sick, their
:19:47. > :19:53.brains fully develop and they can achieve their potential. This is a
:19:53. > :19:58.pretty clear win and the fact that yes, Malaria research is being done
:19:58. > :20:03.now, and vaccines are being delivered, that's a great thing.
:20:03. > :20:07.you worry that, why the western Governments or western
:20:07. > :20:11.philanthropists like Bill Gates are making judgments on your behalf?
:20:11. > :20:16.They are not making judgments on behalf of the developing world. The
:20:16. > :20:21.developing world countries are co- financing these vaccines, the price
:20:21. > :20:25.of these vaccines. The health budgets are up, they have targets
:20:25. > :20:30.of 15%, Rwanda is past 15%, other Governments are coming up. And yes
:20:30. > :20:35.it is true that we must invest in roads and agriculture, and in food
:20:35. > :20:38.security, and Governments are doing that, but our people must be alive,
:20:38. > :20:42.the children must be alive to enjoy these fruits, that is the
:20:42. > :20:45.importance of vaccination. I want to ask you one further question,
:20:46. > :20:51.Andrew Witty, it is about a potential conflict of interest here,
:20:51. > :20:55.drug companies such as yourselves, which are both supplying medicines
:20:55. > :20:59.or vaccines and sitting on the board which makes judgments about
:20:59. > :21:03.whether they should be supplied, that is a conflict of interest
:21:03. > :21:08.isn't it? No, GSK used to have a seat on the GAVI board, we have
:21:08. > :21:12.rotated off it, there are two industry seats on the GAVI board,
:21:12. > :21:16.we have come off somebody else is on. The GAVI board, when you look
:21:16. > :21:19.around the table, almost everyone has a vested interest, you are
:21:19. > :21:23.either a potential supplier or recipient or potential delivery
:21:23. > :21:27.agency. Everybody around that table, more or less has a vested interest.
:21:27. > :21:31.What is clear with the gay the GAVI board operates, is if anything spe
:21:31. > :21:36.- the way the GAVI board operates, if anything comes up the member
:21:36. > :21:40.leaves the meet, of course. The balance here is we don't end up in
:21:40. > :21:43.a situation where you don't have any expertise around the table. If
:21:43. > :21:47.people are talking about the art of the impossible without any
:21:47. > :21:50.knowledge of what actually goes on. Having somebody there is important,
:21:50. > :21:56.I think this would pass any scrutiny over whether or not these
:21:56. > :22:00.people can assert any undue influence, I'm sure they do not.
:22:00. > :22:03.Thank you Deborah Doane. Finally a journalist and former speech
:22:03. > :22:07.writing for David Cameron, the question does aid work, is it worth
:22:07. > :22:12.all this time and money, and in the long run does it help those in need,
:22:12. > :22:16.what is your pitch? I do agree with Mr Gates that vaccination is
:22:16. > :22:22.probably about the best use of aid and Malaria research, that is right.
:22:22. > :22:27.I have a more fundamentalish problem with the whole issue of aid
:22:27. > :22:30.- fundamental issue with the whole issue of aid. Countries getting
:22:30. > :22:34.their aid needs, and not having a need to respond to the needs with
:22:34. > :22:38.the people there. We are breaching accountability. Harvard Medical
:22:38. > :22:42.School have shone when you put money into health services health
:22:42. > :22:46.spending declines, in places like Rwanda and Ethiopia, British aid is
:22:46. > :22:51.fund ago Government that is sending hit men here, on top of that,
:22:51. > :22:53.British aid fund add media council that bans independent newspapers
:22:54. > :22:57.and an Electoral Commission that stopped independent challenges, all
:22:57. > :23:01.these self-appointed saviours are a problem and the reason why we keep
:23:01. > :23:05.hearing western voices always the voices for aid, not African voices,
:23:05. > :23:09.unless they are involved in the industry, because the image of calf
:23:09. > :23:13.is being destroyed by aid, people see Africa as a supplicant, rather
:23:13. > :23:16.than in the fast-growing and changing place where six of the
:23:16. > :23:22.fastest-growing economies are there. Let's deal with the last point
:23:22. > :23:28.freshest in our mind first, do you worry about who is driving this
:23:28. > :23:33.whole aid enterprise? politically elected Governments are
:23:33. > :23:38.by far the biggest donors here. And so politicians like David Cameron,
:23:38. > :23:42.they make a choice, based on what they think the policies should be
:23:42. > :23:47.in, the voters will eventually get to weigh in, just like in many
:23:47. > :23:54.other countries. What about this question of helping to support
:23:54. > :23:58.repressive regimes? Certainly vaccination, it is quite a stretch
:23:58. > :24:02.to say it supports repressive regimes, or maybe they should
:24:02. > :24:07.refuse the aid. That isn't what I was saying, I was saying British
:24:07. > :24:10.aid, not your aid, British aid has directly gone to repressive regimes,
:24:10. > :24:16.that is very different from the sort of things you are doing, there
:24:16. > :24:19.is an issue about that fact. When we decide to save children in a
:24:19. > :24:22.country, we don't look at what the Government has done and say they
:24:22. > :24:26.are not a nice Government. We are willing to fund vaccination for all
:24:26. > :24:31.the children of the world, independent of what is going on
:24:31. > :24:37.with that Government. Richard Sezibera, you are Rwandan, aren't
:24:37. > :24:41.you? You stand accused in all of this to a degree? It is not true
:24:41. > :24:46.that the Rwandan Government sent hit squads all over the world.
:24:46. > :24:51.was Scotland Yard that said they were. I find the discourse a bit
:24:51. > :24:55.dispier iting, on the one hand, rb disspiriting, on the one hand, the
:24:55. > :24:58.British Government, on the other hand regime, the discourse of
:24:58. > :25:03.people who look at Africa and the developing world as if we do not
:25:03. > :25:09.have universal values. And of course, if there is a repressive
:25:09. > :25:14.regime, the people in that country, will rise up against their leaders,
:25:14. > :25:18.through a democratic process. if your Government is, the entire
:25:18. > :25:23.edifice of your country is being supported by western aid, there is
:25:23. > :25:27.less income bancy on you as a Government to render yourself
:25:27. > :25:31.accountable to our citizens. It is not correct that a Government
:25:31. > :25:40.should be supported entire by the western world. My own belief and
:25:40. > :25:43.the belief of many African is we should use aid to get and win our
:25:44. > :25:49.wean ourselves off aid. It is the quality of the aid, the aid must
:25:49. > :25:52.come in to fund a country-owned, country-designed-country-run
:25:52. > :25:56.programme, the more you do that the better. The accountability for
:25:56. > :26:01.delivery must be put where it belongs, on the shoulders of the
:26:01. > :26:05.leaders of these countries. If they can't, then they have to answer for
:26:05. > :26:11.it. You are entirely comfortable with the way this whole thing
:26:11. > :26:14.operates are you? I share Bill's view to a large degree. You have
:26:14. > :26:20.never had anxieties about the dependency culture or the image of
:26:20. > :26:23.Africa? On aid as a general concept I would share some of the questions.
:26:23. > :26:27.It is important when you talk about aid in the bigger sense. When you
:26:27. > :26:32.focus on vaccine, next to washing your hands, it is the single
:26:32. > :26:36.biggest health care intervention in history. When you go to villages,
:26:36. > :26:41.who have only just received their first solar-powered fridge, and as
:26:41. > :26:44.a result for the first time people have been vaccinated against basic
:26:44. > :26:47.illnesses and diseases that are killing children all the time. When
:26:47. > :26:51.you see that happen on the ground it is really difficult to walk away
:26:51. > :26:55.interest that and say we shouldn't be trying to do this more often
:26:55. > :26:59.than in the past. Can I finish with you Bill Gates, on a personal note,
:26:59. > :27:03.everyone in the world knows who you are, and everyone in the world
:27:03. > :27:07.almost uses your products in some way or another. Do you hope this
:27:07. > :27:11.sort of initiative is what you will be remembered for? I don't care to
:27:12. > :27:15.be remembered at all. I do hope that we can get that number of nine
:27:15. > :27:18.million children a year who die down to seven million then five
:27:18. > :27:23.million then three million. There is some wonderful things in the
:27:24. > :27:29.world, today was a big day, the pledging to buy these two new
:27:29. > :27:34.vaccines. We're partnered with GSK on Malaria vaccine with luck, in
:27:34. > :27:38.three years, will be in a position to start delivering that. The
:27:38. > :27:43.advances in technology should not just be for the richest, they, in
:27:43. > :27:47.fact, we should tilt our work to help the poorest. And that's why
:27:47. > :27:53.I'm excited about this second career that I have got.
:27:53. > :27:57.Thank you all very much indeed. Quite apart from the Gates' money,
:27:57. > :28:00.the British Government today committed another �800 million of
:28:00. > :28:04.tax-payers' money to be spent on aid or vaccines specifically. The
:28:04. > :28:09.Prime Minister said that although just be every other area of
:28:09. > :28:11.spending is being cut, it was morally right to spend more on
:28:11. > :28:14.international development. The International Development Secretary,
:28:14. > :28:24.Andrew Mitchell, is here. First a few facts and figure about the UK
:28:24. > :28:33.
:28:33. > :28:43.Almost every Government department is seeing cuts.
:28:43. > :29:02.
:29:02. > :29:07.The biggest recipients of British The International Development
:29:07. > :29:12.Secretary is, as I mentioned here. David Cameron said today that it
:29:12. > :29:15.was right to increase your budget, the international development
:29:15. > :29:20.budget, at the time that other budgets were being cut, it was
:29:20. > :29:24.morally the right thing to do, why? There are two key arguments, it is
:29:24. > :29:27.morally the right thing to do. We live in a world where there are
:29:27. > :29:30.these extraordinary discrepencies of opportunity, and our generations
:29:30. > :29:34.have a chance to really do something about it. The pledging
:29:34. > :29:37.conference today is, I think, a very good example of that. It is
:29:38. > :29:43.not just it is morally right, it is very much in our national interest.
:29:43. > :29:47.This is �300 or more from every household in the country, at a time,
:29:47. > :29:52.when the services they need are being cut, and when they themselves
:29:52. > :29:57.are finding life very often very tough? I don't pretend this is an
:29:57. > :30:03.easy issue, as a proportion of our expenditure, it is relatively small,
:30:03. > :30:07.it is under 1% of national income, I think a country like our's can
:30:07. > :30:11.afford that. If you look at the generosity of people in Britain.
:30:11. > :30:14.For example, in Comic Relief, which over the last two times is against
:30:14. > :30:17.a background of much more serious economic situation, people have
:30:17. > :30:21.been more generous each time. Absolutely, they have a choice in
:30:21. > :30:25.the matter. They have no choice about whether they pay their taxes,
:30:25. > :30:27.they pay their taxes, convention has it, in order to be defended by
:30:27. > :30:31.the Armed Forces, educated in the schools and universities, and all
:30:31. > :30:36.the rest of it. Instead of which they see all of those being cut,
:30:36. > :30:39.and you, by force of law, taking more money to spend in places like
:30:39. > :30:43.Africa? I think the national development budget does have a huge
:30:43. > :30:49.impact. It also impacts on people's security. The point you have just
:30:49. > :30:56.made about defending the state. Our security is not only defend bid
:30:56. > :31:02.guns and tanks, but also training the police in Afghanistan and
:31:02. > :31:06.building up glofrpbance structures in the Middle East, and getting
:31:06. > :31:11.girls into school. It is not just a moral issue, but also very much in
:31:11. > :31:17.our national interest. How much money are we giving to Uganda?
:31:17. > :31:21.Something like �70 million. Is it true the President of Uganda spent
:31:21. > :31:25.�30 million on an executive jet? That happened under the last
:31:25. > :31:29.Government. I don't agree with that, it is the wrong use of the money.
:31:29. > :31:35.Why do we keep on giving it to them? If Governments under us spend
:31:35. > :31:39.money in that way, then we will take action to seek to stop it, in
:31:39. > :31:43.doing, that of course, we want to try to make sure we don't end up
:31:43. > :31:47.afflicting the poorest people in the countries. You want to make the
:31:47. > :31:52.Government more accountable, more transparent. What are we doing
:31:52. > :32:00.giving money to India when it can afford a space programme? India is
:32:00. > :32:04.a development paradox, there are more poor people in India than the
:32:04. > :32:07.whole sub-Saharan continent. For the first time India is not the
:32:07. > :32:12.largest programme. The money is spent in the poorest areas, up to
:32:12. > :32:16.half of it will be on pro--poor, private sector development. Yet the
:32:16. > :32:21.Government of industry chooses to spend money on a space programme?
:32:21. > :32:25.The British development efforts in India, which is a tiny proportion
:32:25. > :32:32.of what the Indians themselves, under 1%, what they themselves
:32:32. > :32:36.spend on education and health care, has a colossal effect and benefit
:32:36. > :32:40.for India. As part of Britain's programme and partnership with
:32:40. > :32:43.india, which was greatly rejuvinated by the Prime Minister
:32:43. > :32:50.last year, the development programme play as small but
:32:50. > :32:54.important part. We give them less than they give to other countries
:32:54. > :32:58.in assistance? That is not true, the Indian, what you would refer to
:32:58. > :33:02.the Indian aid programme is not the aim as what we would call an aid
:33:02. > :33:07.programme, it is a credit system for business. You are spliting
:33:07. > :33:12.hairs? You can't compare them, they are not the same. Isn't it true,
:33:12. > :33:18.people like you belong to a generation that look back on Live
:33:18. > :33:21.Aid as being a marvellous thing and the Gleneagles conference as a
:33:21. > :33:25.marvellous thing and you are out of step with the public, it might have
:33:25. > :33:28.been true eight years ago but not any more? I don't think that is
:33:28. > :33:34.true, the point is our generation have the ability to make a real
:33:34. > :33:39.change in the world. There is a new state start anything Sudan, south
:33:40. > :33:45.Sudan, the girl born today in south Sudan has more chance of dying
:33:45. > :33:49.having a baby than completing primary school. We can do something
:33:49. > :33:54.about this, I'm so glad that the conference today on Global Alliance
:33:54. > :33:57.for Vaccines and Immunisation can have a real impact on children
:33:57. > :34:00.overseas. You have talked about this country becoming an aid
:34:00. > :34:03.superpower, some would characterise it as you would used to
:34:03. > :34:07.characterise the Labour Party as being very generous with other
:34:07. > :34:11.people's money, why is it we have decided to do that, and yet the
:34:11. > :34:17.Italians, the Germans and the Japanese have not decided to go
:34:17. > :34:22.that route? When I say the we were a development superpower. In just
:34:22. > :34:25.the same way as America is a military superpower, but because of
:34:25. > :34:30.the brilliant leadership of Britain around the world in development, we
:34:30. > :34:33.have a huge impact on tackling these dreadful diseases and
:34:33. > :34:38.difficulties, saving lives which we have been talking about. I think it
:34:38. > :34:41.is part of the British DNA to be generous to those who are much less
:34:41. > :34:44.fortunate than we are, the extraordinary discrepencies of
:34:45. > :34:49.wealth which we used earlier, and opportunity. We can do something
:34:49. > :34:53.about that, and we will. Andrew Mitchell thank you very much.
:34:53. > :34:56.Now if you were watching last week you perhaps saw an interview with a
:34:56. > :35:01.London woman who has been presented, completely without her knowledge,
:35:01. > :35:05.to the world as a lesbian living in Damascus. She was pretty cross
:35:05. > :35:12.about her picture being used, it was said to be skaurt measure to
:35:12. > :35:15.protect a Syrian dissident. It turns out not was she not the real
:35:15. > :35:20.author of A Gay Girl In Damascus, the real author was not gay or in
:35:20. > :35:27.Damascus. Nor a girl.
:35:27. > :35:37.Out of a closed country, racked by revolt, came out what sounded like
:35:37. > :35:42.
:35:42. > :35:50.Amina Abdallah Araf al Omari reported in her blog the brutal
:35:50. > :36:00.supression of pro-democracy As the violence continued, she also
:36:00. > :36:04.
:36:04. > :36:14.She was apparently forced into hiding, and then a week ago
:36:14. > :36:18.
:36:18. > :36:22.Thousands joined a Facebook site, demanding her release. As newt
:36:22. > :36:26.night discovered last week, the picture she used of herself
:36:26. > :36:33.actually belonged to a London woman, who is now thinking of suing over
:36:33. > :36:38.the theft of her identity. I never met Amina I'm not part of her blog,
:36:38. > :36:42.not friends with her. It's absolutely astonishing that
:36:42. > :36:50.somebody has been using my pictures and obviously campaigning with my
:36:50. > :36:53.face on it. Today, a married American student
:36:53. > :36:58.at Edinburgh University admitted he was the A Gay Girl In Damascus all
:36:58. > :37:03.along. There are a lot of people who would
:37:03. > :37:08.be perfectly within their rights punching me in the jaw. He's a
:37:08. > :37:14.Middle East activist who began blogging as Amina several years ago,
:37:14. > :37:21.long before the Arab uprisings? intention was never to hurt anyone,
:37:21. > :37:27.in fact, the only intentions I had, besides my own vanity was to draw
:37:27. > :37:33.attention to what I believe are important issues, and second, I
:37:33. > :37:37.amsomebody who feels guilt a lot. I'm feeling incredibly guilty about
:37:37. > :37:45.hurting people and harming causes that I personally, as a human being,
:37:45. > :37:50.believe in. This photo, used by Amina, that
:37:51. > :37:55.previously appeared on a site belonging to McMaster's wife, was a
:37:55. > :38:01.trail of clue that led other bloggers to the truth. The real
:38:01. > :38:05.clue there was the photo on Amina's blog had a wider field of view than
:38:05. > :38:11.the photo on Britta's website, that suggested to us that the person who
:38:11. > :38:17.put it on Amina's blog had access to the original image.
:38:17. > :38:27.Evidence of popular anger in Syria, from where foren reporters are
:38:27. > :38:29.
:38:29. > :38:34.banned comes, in - where foren reporters are banned, some think
:38:34. > :38:40.that hoaxers like McMaster has brought a wider audience. It has
:38:40. > :38:44.pointed out certain social issues that the majority of Syrian
:38:44. > :38:53.bloggers wouldn't touch on, like homosexuality, for obvious social
:38:53. > :38:59.and religious reasons. I don't think there is any bad motives
:38:59. > :39:01.behind the bloggers and the events he has given are daily events that
:39:01. > :39:08.political dissidents and homosexuals go through and face
:39:08. > :39:13.under the regime of Bashar al-Assad. But among those deceived was this
:39:13. > :39:18.Canadian woman who said she was Amin's girlfriend and couldn't
:39:18. > :39:23.sleep for worrying about her. difficult to know where she is, and
:39:23. > :39:30.who took her. Something the hoaxer has done -
:39:30. > :39:34.some think the hoaxer has done wider harm too? This hoax has
:39:34. > :39:39.brought damage to the credibility that people who need to use a cloak
:39:39. > :39:43.of anonymity and pseudonyms to communicate publicly. That has cast
:39:43. > :39:47.a doubt on their ability to be heard when they are really in need.
:39:47. > :39:52.When real Syrian people, or real Arab individuals are expressing
:39:52. > :39:58.themselves, and not somebody who is, in a sense, adopting that as drag
:39:58. > :40:04.for his own purposes. Today, refugees continued to arrive
:40:04. > :40:11.in neighbouring Turkey, after the army retook the rebellious town of
:40:11. > :40:14.Al-Shughour. As for the Gay Girl in Damascus, what began as a possible
:40:14. > :40:17.well-meaning attempt to highlight oppression, has ended up
:40:17. > :40:21.distracting attention from the real horror of Syria now.
:40:21. > :40:26.Details of concessions in the Government's health bill have been
:40:26. > :40:29.announced today, and our political editor is with us.
:40:29. > :40:34.What are they? Strictly speaking we have to wait until tomorrow to get
:40:35. > :40:38.the Government's response. What happened today was that Professor
:40:38. > :40:41.Steve Field, the senior GP, asked by the Government eight weeks ago
:40:41. > :40:45.to go around the country with a team of health exports to work out
:40:45. > :40:49.what to do about the bill, came back and delivered his report. Much
:40:49. > :40:55.of it is long and complicated and very difficult to understand.
:40:55. > :40:59.Essentially, what he is saying is there will probably be some delay
:40:59. > :41:03.in certain places to the implementation of the GP-led
:41:03. > :41:07.consortia, that will be commissions health care in future. Perhaps the
:41:07. > :41:11.most fundamental change that he's recommending is there should be a
:41:11. > :41:16.lot less emphasis on competition in the health service in future, and
:41:16. > :41:23.in the health and social care Bill and in particular, that it should
:41:23. > :41:28.not be the primary purpose of the new Healthwatch dog, Monitor, to
:41:28. > :41:34.consider competition, competition is important, but it shunting of
:41:34. > :41:43.overriding importance. Has this done the trick? It has, there is
:41:43. > :41:46.nothing like the huge rift within the coalition we had a month ago.
:41:46. > :41:49.The Liberal Democrats have had a successful neating with Nick Clegg,
:41:49. > :41:53.they believe there is a Vic auto- meeting with Nick Clegg, they
:41:53. > :41:57.believe there is a victory here. The Health Secretary is
:41:57. > :42:00.sufficiently happy not to resign. He will play a role in explaining
:42:00. > :42:04.what the Government will do. Tomorrow we will also be hearing
:42:04. > :42:07.from groups of health service professionals, some of whom will be
:42:07. > :42:13.expressing their satisfaction. Where David Cameron has so far
:42:13. > :42:16.failed, though, politically, is in public opinion, an opinion poll for
:42:16. > :42:21.ITN tonight shows more than half the British public don't trust
:42:21. > :42:25.Cameron on the NHS. Was this ever a real issue, is it about substantive
:42:26. > :42:30.matters in the NHS, or is there some tension between the Liberal
:42:30. > :42:34.Democrats and the Tories? There are substantive matters in the NHS. My
:42:34. > :42:36.own view of the proposal that is have come up from Steve Field today,
:42:36. > :42:40.I was at the briefing s basically where the Government went wrong on
:42:40. > :42:45.the bill is in presentation and communication, that indeed was a
:42:45. > :42:49.lot of what Professor Field was saying. In the language they used,
:42:49. > :42:53.he argues that actually they frightened them who didn't need to
:42:53. > :42:57.be frightened. A lot of what he's recommending is the language should
:42:57. > :43:01.be changed, that certain emphasis should be applied here and less
:43:01. > :43:06.there, and that was much more likely to satisfy the people in the
:43:06. > :43:10.health service who were deeply worried about all these proposals.
:43:10. > :43:15.That sounds like ineptness? To a degree. Some people in Downing
:43:15. > :43:19.Street would argue in terms of presenting this bill, Andrew
:43:19. > :43:22.Lansley has shown a certain ineptness in terms of communicating
:43:22. > :43:26.it. Interestingly, where the Liberal Democrats won't be able to
:43:26. > :43:30.claim a victory is what happens to the bill next. Nick Clegg was
:43:30. > :43:34.arguing it ought now to go back to the Commons committee, where it was
:43:34. > :43:38.before, the Government is not going to do that, it is going to say, no,
:43:38. > :43:44.proceed as before, to report stage, even though that report stage may
:43:44. > :43:54.take up to a couple of weeks. have lost the public now! Tomorrow
:43:54. > :44:17.
:44:17. > :44:27.That's all from Newsnight tonight. That's all from Newsnight tonight.
:44:27. > :44:50.
:44:50. > :44:54.Goodnight. More rain coming in for the week.
:44:54. > :45:02.Tomorrow is said to be a belter after a chilty start, a lot of
:45:02. > :45:08.sunshine to look forward to. There will be sudden cloud building
:45:08. > :45:14.up. It won't threaten rain for the most part.
:45:14. > :45:19.The low 20s widely and the winds light. A feel-good day. Down across
:45:19. > :45:22.the far South-West of England, it will cloud up with drizzle by the
:45:22. > :45:27.end of the afternoon, principally across Cornwall. Elsewhere across
:45:28. > :45:30.the UK, no such threat. Dry across Wales, with well-broken cloud and
:45:30. > :45:35.sunny spells, and for Northern Ireland as well. Temperatures here
:45:35. > :45:38.up to 16-17. Up across Scotland, the north of Scotland, winds will
:45:38. > :45:41.be lighter than they were today. And the worst of the wet weather
:45:41. > :45:46.will have cleared away from the Northern Isles, things settling
:45:47. > :45:50.down across the northern parts. A fine prospect then, for most of us
:45:50. > :45:55.across northern areas fine. More cloud across the west of the UK,
:45:55. > :45:59.maybe the odd shower, the theme is for it to stay predominantly dry on
:45:59. > :46:03.Wednesday, although cloudier than Tuesday. Wednesday's probably the