:00:10. > :00:15.That documentary seems set to trigger a new debate about assisted
:00:15. > :00:19.dying. Is it a human right to decide how and when we die? Is it
:00:19. > :00:24.moral to help someone? Should it be legal in this country? We are going
:00:24. > :00:29.to sue over all of that in the next half hour. Our six guests all have
:00:29. > :00:33.The Bishop of Exeter has a daughter with Down's syndrome and opposes
:00:33. > :00:36.assisted dying because we should protect the vulnerable. The
:00:36. > :00:39.disability rights campaigner Liz Carr tried on camera to persuade a
:00:39. > :00:43.quadriplegic man not to kill and staff. David Aaronovitch has
:00:43. > :00:46.written of his desire to end his own life when the time comes.
:00:46. > :00:50.Debbie Purdy went to court to protect her husband from
:00:50. > :00:55.prosecution if he accompanies her to Switzerland so she can die.
:00:55. > :01:00.Dinah Rose QC represented the Director of Public Prosecutions,
:01:00. > :01:04.the other side of the argument in that case. Also with us is Dr Erika
:01:04. > :01:07.Preisig, who works for Dignitas, and whom you saw in the film.
:01:07. > :01:12.Talking briefly about the film before we consider the broader
:01:12. > :01:17.issues, did any of you change your mind as a consequence of what you
:01:17. > :01:21.saw? It was remarkable, what one saw in that film. Did anybody
:01:21. > :01:27.change your mind? I did not change my mind, but my expectations
:01:27. > :01:31.changed. I expected I would they be able to welcome the film as a
:01:31. > :01:36.contribution to an important debate, but I became concerned and
:01:36. > :01:40.disturbed by. It was very one-sided. There was a nod to a hospice care
:01:40. > :01:44.but no showing the alternative ending. There was no indication
:01:44. > :01:48.that the two principles, Peter and Andrew, need not have been living
:01:48. > :01:53.the life they were leading. I questioned the whole ethical basis
:01:53. > :01:57.of the programme at the end. I felt that Peter and indeed his wife and
:01:57. > :02:01.indeed Terry Pratchett had been caught up and become trapped in the
:02:01. > :02:04.storyline of the programme. I felt there was a deeply coercive
:02:04. > :02:13.atmosphere in that room at the end, and I felt emotionally blackmailed
:02:13. > :02:17.by it. What did you think, Debbie Purdy? I thought the arguments were
:02:17. > :02:22.really important. There was nothing that made me change my mind, as you
:02:22. > :02:28.would imagine. But I think it raised some very important
:02:28. > :02:37.questions. For instance, the cost of not talking in this country, of
:02:37. > :02:42.not being able to have the protection... This country, we
:02:42. > :02:49.decide what people need as protection. We should not have to
:02:49. > :02:52.be relying on these was or anybody else. -- the Swiss. We should be
:02:52. > :02:57.able to confirm that in our country. Did you rethink any of your
:02:57. > :03:01.assumptions? It is quite interesting, because the bishop
:03:01. > :03:05.felt great emphasis on his pre- existing beliefs, and so did I,
:03:05. > :03:09.from the other direction. Although I do think that the trend and the
:03:09. > :03:13.way in which people are moving is very much towards a much greater
:03:13. > :03:18.degree of autonomy and self- decision about matters of debt, as
:03:18. > :03:23.in other things, what I think the film did for me was give absolute
:03:23. > :03:26.and real emphasis to what this decision actually meant. To see
:03:26. > :03:32.people, sentient people making that kind of decision in the
:03:33. > :03:37.circumstances they did, it was not just moving. It was deeply human. I
:03:37. > :03:40.think the way in which the bishop has to characterise it is necessary
:03:40. > :03:44.for him to maintain his own position, because actually what you
:03:44. > :03:49.really had was people making a decision they were qualified and
:03:49. > :03:54.only they were qualified to do. the people we saw were articulate,
:03:54. > :03:58.they were people of means. There was no reference whatsoever to the
:03:58. > :04:03.week, the vulnerable, the poor. are talking about the film. We will
:04:03. > :04:08.come to those issues in a moment. Ms Kama did you can take your
:04:08. > :04:13.views? -- reconsider. Well, like everyone here, I'm not going to say,
:04:13. > :04:18.I have seen the light, I am going to Dignitas! I know, it is strange!
:04:18. > :04:22.But I do think that it was yet again broke assisted suicide. I
:04:23. > :04:26.think that is what it is, propaganda. Actually, I'm very
:04:26. > :04:32.upset at the BBC. I know they have been called the cheerleaders of
:04:32. > :04:37.assisted suicide, and I think that is right. I and many other disabled,
:04:37. > :04:41.older and terminally ill people are quite fearful of what legalising
:04:41. > :04:45.assisted suicide would do and would mean. Those arguments are not being
:04:45. > :04:49.debated, teased out, the safeguards are not being looked at. Until we
:04:49. > :04:54.have a programme that does that, I will not be happy to move on to the
:04:54. > :05:00.wider debate. Did you feel the case was fairly presented? It was fairly
:05:00. > :05:08.presented, but a lot of important things were missing, for me. Depart
:05:08. > :05:12.that Liz said, we should see the legal side, what has to be done to
:05:12. > :05:21.protect other people, to protect people who do not want to go. This
:05:21. > :05:25.is very, very important. We have exact regulations in Switzerland to
:05:25. > :05:28.assist some of them. We will explore them late in the programme,
:05:28. > :05:32.but first a little more from Terry Pratchett, made his film to help
:05:32. > :05:36.establish whether he would be able to die in a manner and that a point
:05:36. > :05:40.of his own choosing. I asked him whether the experience of watching
:05:40. > :05:46.others do what he wants to be able to do had clarified things. Terry
:05:47. > :05:50.Pratchett, having seen what Dignitas is about and assisted
:05:50. > :05:59.dying is about, have you changed your views at all? I believe it
:05:59. > :06:06.should be possible for someone stricken with a serious and
:06:07. > :06:15.ultimately fatal illness to choose to die peacefully, with medical
:06:15. > :06:21.help, rather than suffer. And your views did not change. No. Do you
:06:21. > :06:29.think the same freedom applies to somebody who has an unendurable, in
:06:29. > :06:37.their judgment, condition? There is a human right to die. You think
:06:37. > :06:47.there is? All rights are contingent on all other rights. I would have
:06:47. > :06:51.
:06:51. > :06:58.been shocked if Peter Smedley was determined to die with his wife
:06:58. > :07:04.absolutely in tears and begging him. I think the mind of the marriage
:07:04. > :07:08.had made up its mind, and Peter was going to go to Dignitas. He did not
:07:08. > :07:13.want to go to Dignitas. His wife did not want him to go to Dignitas.
:07:13. > :07:19.But he went to Dignitas because that was the only game in town.
:07:19. > :07:24.Almost the same sort of thing was said by Andrew, the young man. I
:07:24. > :07:27.think, in his case, is there is a real tragedy. You have mentioned
:07:27. > :07:31.the two guys who decided to end their lives. You have not mentioned
:07:31. > :07:39.the cabbie in the hospice who were users is very memorable phrase, he
:07:39. > :07:43.says to you, let's try another role of the dice. Yes. Anybody might
:07:43. > :07:49.come to that conclusion, having been in a suicidal frame of mind
:07:49. > :07:56.previously. Yes. And what is your question? Which judgment the
:07:56. > :08:04.respect? I respect Peter's judgment. Killing yourself is not something
:08:04. > :08:10.to be encouraged, is it? Good heavens, no. No. We do not
:08:10. > :08:19.encourage it because... Because of all sorts of ideas about the
:08:19. > :08:22.sanctity of life. What about the dignity of life? His lack of
:08:23. > :08:28.dignity a sufficient reason to kill yourself? I am sure, for some
:08:28. > :08:33.people, it would be. We have been talking predominantly about debts
:08:33. > :08:37.of older people, or very old people. If the law were to change, to be
:08:37. > :08:41.changed to allow assisted suicide, should there the something in the
:08:41. > :08:47.law that says that there is a cut- off point, in age below which you
:08:47. > :08:51.are not allowed to make this judgment? Let's call at the age of
:08:51. > :08:56.consent, I think. I think we have to do it like that. At the age of
:08:56. > :09:02.consent... Who do not really mean the age of consent, do you? A
:09:02. > :09:08.teenager thing? I think we have to say that. You could pick it. I
:09:08. > :09:14.personally would be very upset if someone I thought of as a child was
:09:14. > :09:17.assistant to die. Thank you very much.
:09:17. > :09:22.Right, David Aaronovitch, this question of conflicting rights. A
:09:22. > :09:29.right to dignity and life and death, and a right to live, they conflict
:09:29. > :09:33.at times, clearly. Yes, they can conflict. You can decide that your
:09:33. > :09:37.life is intolerable. Now, you may make the argument that he might
:09:37. > :09:42.change your mind. You can make all kinds of speculative arguments
:09:42. > :09:45.about what would, May, could happen under different circumstances, but
:09:45. > :09:50.it seems to me that, by and large, speaking to America about this
:09:50. > :09:54.before the programme, about the actual number of assisted suicides
:09:54. > :09:58.way it is legal, 200 in the entire population. There really is not any
:09:58. > :10:03.evidence that people, given this capacity, rush out en masse in
:10:03. > :10:06.order to be able to take it. You have the most deliberative... It
:10:06. > :10:10.may be that for other people who do not go through the process, knowing
:10:10. > :10:14.that it is available gives them some form of consolation.
:10:14. > :10:19.indeed that was admitted in the film, the doctor at the Dignitas
:10:19. > :10:23.Clinic said, lots of people come here and then never come back.
:10:23. > :10:29.think Terry makes a very important distinction. Talking about the
:10:29. > :10:33.dignity of life, I prefer dignity to Saturday. Dignity is about
:10:33. > :10:36.what's giving work to every human life. It has to bear on every human
:10:36. > :10:42.life, and my problem with the emphasis on choice is that it is
:10:42. > :10:45.all right for us here, who are fat choice, but takes someone like my
:10:45. > :10:49.daughter, whose experience of life is having somebody else making
:10:49. > :10:53.choices for her. She has just had her house sold around her with very
:10:53. > :10:57.little choice. It leaves you with a poor sense of self-esteem and self-
:10:57. > :11:06.worth. What pommie gives dignity of life is to say that each of us has
:11:06. > :11:09.a value. -- what for me. It is not an instrument of thing. It is part
:11:09. > :11:14.of community and social relationships. I want to see more
:11:14. > :11:18.emphasis on supporting people in living than assisting them in dying.
:11:18. > :11:27.Erica, you are a religious person. Yes. How do you reconcile what you
:11:27. > :11:30.do with your religious conscience? I had a lot of different
:11:31. > :11:36.experiences, very positive experiences with religion. When my
:11:36. > :11:45.father died, he was very religious, he had a stroke and could not talk,
:11:45. > :11:51.so I could not talk to him and ask him, how can you do this? You have
:11:51. > :11:56.no conflicts? And I had a priests, as I just told you, I had a priest
:11:56. > :12:01.who came for an assisted suicide, a priest from England, Catholic. I
:12:01. > :12:09.was talking with him for a long time about how he could do this,
:12:09. > :12:13.being a priest. He was there for the first talk with me, he was
:12:13. > :12:20.convinced that he would do it. We talked to let go there again after
:12:20. > :12:24.two days, and he said, he said he had an inspiration, and his duty to
:12:24. > :12:27.come here was not to go into an assisted suicide yet, it was to
:12:27. > :12:33.come and tell me that I am doing the right thing, that I should go
:12:33. > :12:37.on with my work. And he went home after the second talk. He did not
:12:37. > :12:41.go to the assisted suicide. He did come back a few months later and
:12:41. > :12:45.went into the assisted suicide. Things like this happen to me and
:12:46. > :12:51.give me a lot of strength and a lot of knowledge that it might be OK,
:12:51. > :12:55.what I am doing. We commissioned an opinion poll, and there is a clear
:12:55. > :13:01.difference between those people who think that this is a legitimate
:13:01. > :13:07.thing for somebody to decide to do if they have a terminal illness and
:13:07. > :13:12.those who have an incurable illness. Where, for you, lies the
:13:12. > :13:15.difference? What I was going to see -- say is actually ask you, if
:13:16. > :13:23.somebody is terminally ill, they have started the process of dying.
:13:23. > :13:29.They are not going to be cured. They can potentially be suffering
:13:29. > :13:33.enormously, and for an assisted death, it is not life-or-death. It
:13:33. > :13:38.is a horrible death for a good death, and that is something that I
:13:38. > :13:44.know the main campaigner in this country, dignity and dying, is only
:13:44. > :13:48.in favour of changing the law to allow terminally ill people to be
:13:48. > :13:52.able to request an assisted death. That is really interesting, because
:13:52. > :14:00.on the Terry Pratchett documentary, not one of those people were
:14:01. > :14:06.terminally ill. He is not. M&S is not terminal. But nobody was going
:14:06. > :14:14.to die within the next... Peter, I am sorry, his last name has gone
:14:14. > :14:18.from me. He just wanted to die at He to go to swilts land. He not
:14:18. > :14:23.only had to know he was going to die in a way he wasn't prepared to,
:14:23. > :14:29.also, maybe he would have chosen not to die at that point if he was
:14:29. > :14:35.able to die in this country. So he changed the law for people. We
:14:35. > :14:40.change the law for those few. This is a minority incidence, people who
:14:40. > :14:46.want to be assisted to die. Absolutely. Why change the law,
:14:46. > :14:54.unless it can be fully safeguarded? What is it you're worried about if
:14:54. > :14:58.the law is change snd If we legalise euthanasia or assisted
:14:58. > :15:03.suicide, I worry the ultimate punishment of prison will be taken
:15:03. > :15:09.away. For the majority of people, for families, this is a hugely
:15:09. > :15:15.emotive issue. I don't want people to die painfully. I'm worried about
:15:15. > :15:20.the coercion that goes on in old people's homes, places like
:15:20. > :15:24.Winterborne. That is a real anxiety if we change the law. One of the
:15:24. > :15:30.things I find interesting is the way this argument plays out on both
:15:30. > :15:36.sides of line. On the one hand it is said there may be pressure put
:15:36. > :15:41.upon people to kill themselves. From what Erika says, it would be
:15:41. > :15:45.difficult to get away with that?. Right at the end, it really worried
:15:45. > :15:52.me, I realise we saw probably an edited version. Peter lifted a
:15:52. > :15:55.glass of poison and said "when do I take it?" many doctors are pre-
:15:55. > :16:04.counsellors present at that point would have thought, hang on, there
:16:04. > :16:08.is a moment of hesitation here. The answer was "do whatever you want."
:16:08. > :16:12.I think you're Reading into something that isn't there. Erika,
:16:12. > :16:16.you talk to people who come. Have you ever talked to them and felt,
:16:16. > :16:24.perhaps you do want this but you're too early and nonetheless been
:16:24. > :16:28.willing to help? I send quite a few home. It is not right people who
:16:28. > :16:33.come to Switzerland never go home again. 10% of the people who come
:16:33. > :16:40.to Switzerland are sent back home. Quite a lot never ever get the
:16:40. > :16:47.green light. I can't accept it. who are you to decide? I'm not God.
:16:47. > :16:52.No. The big problem is, with Peter, he went too early. For me he went
:16:52. > :16:58.too early. Then why did you help him? If he wasn't British I would
:16:58. > :17:02.have sent him home. At least for Christmas and his birthday. He had
:17:02. > :17:07.not a terminal illness but an illness which cannot be cured. He
:17:07. > :17:10.was getting very much worse with symptoms that you can't see from
:17:10. > :17:17.the outside. He was getting worse with swallowing, breathing and
:17:17. > :17:21.speaking which shows that the illness is starting to get worse. I
:17:21. > :17:29.couldn't send him home because he was so much afraid of not being
:17:29. > :17:36.able to come again without help. That is the problem. Let me hear
:17:36. > :17:40.from you, Liz. I'm quite frightened as a lot of disabled people are, in
:17:40. > :17:44.the current climate, assisted suicide should never have an
:17:44. > :17:49.economic situation. In the current climate it can't help but be
:17:49. > :17:53.economic. The cost of social care, the cuts in terms of the NHS. What
:17:53. > :17:58.concerns me, there's more and more pressure. You can ask somebody, do
:17:58. > :18:03.you want to die, they'll say, yes, they do. Is that to protect their
:18:03. > :18:06.family where they worry about being a burden or not having the right
:18:06. > :18:12.palliative care. We debate again and again the right to die. But
:18:12. > :18:15.what about the right to live and support those people? That's very
:18:15. > :18:19.important. There could be an economic problem. That is for
:18:19. > :18:24.instance, everybody we seagoing to Switzerland, there is a financial
:18:24. > :18:29.implication. Personally, going to Switzerland, I have a credit card I
:18:29. > :18:34.keep blank in order to make sure I can. If I had children I'm not sure
:18:34. > :18:39.I could do that. But there is a massive difference between... I
:18:39. > :18:45.think we need to suss further people who are not terminally-ill.
:18:45. > :18:50.I think it is so immediate that people who are terminally-ill do
:18:50. > :18:56.not want to travel to Switzerland. They have to go earlier, it might
:18:56. > :18:59.be a week, a month, a year earlier than they would have to if it was
:18:59. > :19:03.in Britain. Nobody in that programme seemed to be terminally-
:19:03. > :19:12.ill. They could lift the cup. They could do it them elves. But they
:19:12. > :19:22.have to be able to do it themselves. Lifting a cup isn't terminally ill.
:19:22. > :19:23.
:19:23. > :19:27.You and I are disabled. Terminally- ill people are lifpb... Dignity in
:19:27. > :19:34.dying are confusing the issue around disabled peopleland...
:19:34. > :19:40.want to move on to the law. People often talk about committing suicide
:19:40. > :19:46.as if it is committing an offence. But it is illegal to help someone
:19:46. > :19:54.kill themselves. No-one has been prosecuted for doing that. Quite
:19:54. > :19:57.lines were issued intending to clarify the law in this area. Did
:19:57. > :20:00.the Director of Public Prosecutions succeed? In the past nine years, it
:20:00. > :20:05.is believed over 150 people have travelled from Britain to
:20:05. > :20:11.Switzerland to end their lives at Dignitas. So far, no-one who's
:20:11. > :20:15.helped, who's assisted in suicide has been prosecuted. Yet England's
:20:15. > :20:24.1961 Suicide Act clearly states any assistance is illegal. So, what the
:20:24. > :20:28.law forbids, the interpretation, up to now, has permitted. On some
:20:28. > :20:32.readings, the legal regime in England and Wales prohibits
:20:32. > :20:36.assisted suicide while allowing more scope for it to happen without
:20:37. > :20:46.prosecution than almost anywhere else. On what's truly and starkly a
:20:46. > :20:53.matter of life and death, nothing is simple. Back in 2002, Newsnight
:20:53. > :20:58.were the first journalists to reveal what Dignitas was about. We
:20:58. > :21:04.sawed Ludwig Minnelli and his assistant. She was still coming to
:21:04. > :21:09.terms with her job back then. Somebody has to do it. Since then,
:21:09. > :21:15.Britain's going to Dignitas have risked prosecution. So Debbie Purdy,
:21:15. > :21:18.who wanted to know if her husband could be in jeopardy, was delighted
:21:18. > :21:27.when the Law Lords said the Director of Public Prosecutions
:21:27. > :21:34.needed to clarify the position. The Director of Public Prosecutions
:21:34. > :21:38.was said people would be less likely to be prosecuted if they
:21:38. > :21:43.only gave reluctant encouragement or assistance. The law says the
:21:43. > :21:49.Director of Public Prosecutions could have restricted the criteria
:21:49. > :21:52.to only those going to Switzerland. He's depaelt with suicides in
:21:52. > :21:56.England and Wales. He's dealing with proximate assistance, much
:21:56. > :22:02.closer to the final act which causes death. Forks, we could be
:22:02. > :22:05.talking about providing medication, say you have some leftover pills
:22:06. > :22:12.from another illness and you provide that medication to your
:22:12. > :22:14.friend or relative. And that's OK? Well, that's the sort of assistance
:22:15. > :22:18.covered by President policy. seems the Director of Public
:22:18. > :22:22.Prosecutions opened the door far wider than originally intended. He
:22:22. > :22:27.planned to restrict assisted suicides only to those with
:22:27. > :22:33.terminal illness or with a degenerative physical disability.
:22:33. > :22:37.But disability groups protested saying they were being picked out,
:22:37. > :22:40.discriminated against. It was to stem fierce the disabled would be
:22:40. > :22:45.targeted for euthanasia that restrictions based on physical
:22:45. > :22:48.condition were dropped. Almost by accident, it's left a policy which
:22:48. > :22:53.is arguably more liberal than anywhere else. The I canesting laws
:22:53. > :22:58.are most liberal in northern Europe. In Belgium and the Netherlands
:22:58. > :23:05.assisted dying and euthanasia where doctors administer the poison are
:23:06. > :23:13.legal. The patient has to be facing unbearable suffering with no hope
:23:13. > :23:21.of improvement. Luxembourg also legal ieszed euthanasia and asaysed
:23:21. > :23:25.suicide. In Switzerland, those say cysted must not be making a profit.
:23:25. > :23:30.Only Washington and Oregon allow assisted dying. The patient has to
:23:30. > :23:36.be suffering an incurable disease expected to kill them within six
:23:36. > :23:42.months. In the House of Lords, Lord Joffe's tried and failed to
:23:42. > :23:47.introduce bills legalising assisted dying. It should limited to a
:23:47. > :23:53.restrictive group of terminally-ill patients who are suffering and have
:23:53. > :24:00.made an informed decision that they want to end their lives.
:24:00. > :24:07.Baroness Campbell says that's dangerous. An atheist, since birth
:24:07. > :24:14.she's had terminal muscular atrophy. She was labelled in hospital a few
:24:14. > :24:19.years ago do not resuscitate. they say to me now thanks God there
:24:19. > :24:24.wasn't a law in this country because I'd be dead now. You say
:24:24. > :24:28.people come out of that despair? Absolutely, yes. What of the man
:24:28. > :24:32.who interprets the current law? You're getting Chris sighsed by
:24:32. > :24:37.both sides at the moment? Most people think given the framework
:24:37. > :24:41.within which we operated, we arrived at a very good set of
:24:41. > :24:45.guidelines. They have been welcomed by many people. I think they are in
:24:45. > :24:51.the right place. Most people agree with that, I think. It was a very
:24:51. > :24:56.difficult taste can. There's no immediate prospect of the law
:24:56. > :25:02.changing. But are the guidelines a kofrp pies that works? --
:25:02. > :25:08.compromise that works. Dinah Rose, do you think these guidelines work?
:25:08. > :25:11.I think it depends on what you mean by work. There is a problem with
:25:11. > :25:16.the approach the House of Lords adopted. We have a situation where
:25:16. > :25:19.on the statute book there's legislation which says it is a
:25:19. > :25:23.criminal offence to assist in suicide. Where it is accepted the
:25:23. > :25:27.Director of Public Prosecutions cannot give you immunity from
:25:27. > :25:32.prosecution and you simply have a list the factors which will be
:25:32. > :25:36.taken into account whether or not there will be prosecution. Debbie
:25:36. > :25:40.periody didn't really get what she wanted. There's no guarantee but on
:25:40. > :25:44.the other hand, you have a questionable result in terms of the
:25:44. > :25:49.rule of law. Is it really for judges or for the Director of
:25:49. > :25:53.Public Prosecutions to decide to amend primary legislation. It is
:25:53. > :25:58.not satisfactory at all. One thing is clear under these guidelines,
:25:58. > :26:05.the one group of people who cannot be involved in assisting suicides
:26:05. > :26:13.are doctors? On the whole, the law as it stapbts are clear and the --
:26:13. > :26:18.stands are clear. You think they work? At present, suicide is not a
:26:18. > :26:22.crime but the law ultimately is not there to constrain individual
:26:22. > :26:29.choice. It is there to constrain third party action and complicity
:26:29. > :26:34.in another person's death. That remains illegal. There may be
:26:34. > :26:39.circumstances which can be taken into account. But the law remains
:26:39. > :26:44.clear and is there to protect the vulnerable. It seemed to me, the
:26:44. > :26:50.very basis of English law, it should protect the most vulnerable
:26:50. > :26:54.expression to the deepest values our society holds. What do you
:26:54. > :27:01.think of it? Particularly this aspect of doctors not being allowed
:27:01. > :27:07.to be involved. Makes a botcheded job more likely? Yes. I agree
:27:08. > :27:12.entirely that the lawyers who are not elected, who are appointed or...
:27:12. > :27:17.The thing is they are the only people who've had the courage to
:27:17. > :27:25.stand up and say this law is older than me and I would take a guess it
:27:25. > :27:31.is older than most of us. What we are going to do is make it relevant
:27:31. > :27:36.in today's society with today's countries like Switzerland,
:27:36. > :27:41.Luxembourg. Making it legal for assisted dying. Politicians haven't
:27:41. > :27:49.kept up. Lawyers and judges have been the only people who have been
:27:49. > :27:55.prepared to defend my rights and the thing is, what you said about
:27:55. > :28:02.the rights of individuals... My right to life and the quality of my
:28:02. > :28:09.life is the most important thing to me. And who else but you can
:28:09. > :28:13.decide? I would hope we can agree on that but this is based on the Si
:28:13. > :28:19.sichings of assisted dying. I'd like to talk about good dying. I
:28:19. > :28:29.challenge the BBC to do a similar documentary tracking somebody like
:28:29. > :28:38.the cabbie through to a good death. We've done documentries about the
:28:38. > :28:43.good dying. You say with the cabbie, I'm with him but... It is not
:28:43. > :28:47.expressing his personal choice. is The cabbie even said, it is your
:28:47. > :28:50.decision to make. It becomes difficult to police. Ultimately,
:28:50. > :28:56.law has to be concerned with the most vulnerable. Within that, I'm
:28:56. > :29:00.sure it is possible to work for a good death for us all. Assisted
:29:00. > :29:09.dying is not... We don't have it at the moment of the under your system
:29:09. > :29:13.we don't have good deaths now. think we can work more for it.
:29:13. > :29:18.Dying, terminally-ill is painful stuff. It is emotional and emotive.
:29:18. > :29:22.It is hard to come to reconciliation. It is not about an
:29:22. > :29:26.issue about personal morality. It is about public safety and security.
:29:26. > :29:33.Unless there can be a law on the statute books that can protect
:29:33. > :29:37.everybody who is vulnerable... there's no such thing. We don't
:29:37. > :29:42.have capital punishment for that very point. Erika, earlier you say
:29:42. > :29:46.there's something about the way the law operates in this country that
:29:46. > :29:52.is really unsatisfactory?. Switzerland, there are guidelines.
:29:52. > :29:57.I have listed them here. I would like to give them to you. Thank you.
:29:57. > :30:03.It is very important we have guidelines. Why can't you respect
:30:03. > :30:09.Debbie? Give her the way of death she wants. And we respect you.
:30:09. > :30:15.think Debbie can have that death. We try to put as much money in
:30:15. > :30:21.hospices and palliative care as we can. Palliative care is very
:30:21. > :30:26.important. Most people imagine 200 people go into assisteded suicide
:30:26. > :30:36.in Switzerland. Most go into death with palliative care. And that's it.
:30:36. > :30:36.
:30:36. > :30:41.It is a minority issue. Very 45ly suffering people... Can I say
:30:41. > :30:49.something about your argument about the weak people? Your daughter
:30:49. > :30:55.wouldn't be able to defend herself. She wouldn't be able to go in
:30:55. > :31:00.assisted suicide. She must be of sound mind. But Terry Pratchett
:31:00. > :31:06.himself said although he's clear where he's going, developing a code
:31:06. > :31:15.of safeguards is extraordinarily difficult. This won't stop as an
:31:16. > :31:20.issue. There will be a need to change the law. I remember
:31:20. > :31:25.homosexuality was the age of consent was standardised from 21 to
:31:25. > :31:30.16, same as for heterosexuals. So many people often the same teem
:31:30. > :31:35.that I hear now are saying, there's going to be all sorts of men
:31:35. > :31:39.waiting round corners waiting to corrupt our young people. What
:31:39. > :31:45.about the vulnerable and weak? It hasn't happened. The point is we
:31:45. > :31:49.are old enough, we are intelligent enough and we have politicians who
:31:50. > :31:56.are bright enough to make sure that the guidelines that the protections
:31:57. > :32:06.that are put in place in a proper, thought-outlaw, are good enough to
:32:07. > :32:07.