:00:10. > :00:14.A year ago they knew exactly how to mend the health service, today they
:00:14. > :00:21.accepted a better idea. Their photocall got up the nose of
:00:21. > :00:26.one part of the medical profession. Why are we told to walk about like
:00:26. > :00:30.this, I'm not having it, get out. Today Cameron and Clegg each
:00:30. > :00:33.claimed credit for listening and backing off. I have been asking the
:00:33. > :00:37.Health Secretary whether he hasn't made an awful mess of the
:00:37. > :00:41.legislation. We get a second opinion or several from our
:00:41. > :00:45.political panel. Following a postal ballot, the unions vote for the
:00:45. > :00:49.biggest national teachers' strike in 25 years. Is this the opening
:00:49. > :00:53.engagement in a protracted war in the public services. Citizen Smith
:00:53. > :00:57.wakes up in a country without a Government. Welcome to Belgium. But
:00:57. > :01:07.what's the President of Europe doing with a Rubik's cube. I hope
:01:07. > :01:10.
:01:10. > :01:14.you enjoy your cube, many hours of private fiddling there.
:01:14. > :01:17.Shrugering the pill, watering down the dose, choose your own metaphor
:01:17. > :01:20.to describe what the Government did to its plans to reform the health
:01:20. > :01:25.service in England today. The Health Secretary, of course,
:01:25. > :01:28.maintains that the course of treatment he prescribed, remains
:01:28. > :01:32.largely unchanged, but it is certainly a new approach to
:01:32. > :01:35.introduce a bill in parliament and then rewrite it when you see how
:01:35. > :01:38.much opposition there is. Labour called it a humiliation, and the
:01:38. > :01:46.Liberal Democrats immediately took credit, they said, for improving
:01:46. > :01:55.the bill. # The road is long
:01:55. > :02:00.# With many a winding turn It has been quite a journey, since
:02:00. > :02:04.these three ministers first agreed the health wide paper almost a year
:02:04. > :02:07.ago. Andrew Lansley's NHS reforms were stress tested twice within
:02:07. > :02:12.Whitehall, then presented to parliament. Then suddenly put on
:02:12. > :02:17.hold last April. When Mr Cameron's coalition brothers, the Liberal
:02:17. > :02:24.Democrats, publicly, and George Osborne privately, expressed strong
:02:24. > :02:30.doubts. Today, after the wide ranging Field
:02:30. > :02:33.Review, ministers announced big reforms to their reforms.
:02:33. > :02:39.You wanted us to make clear that competition is not there for its
:02:39. > :02:43.own sake, but to make life better for patients, done. You wanted us
:02:43. > :02:48.to get specialists and nurse, not just GPs, on to commissioning
:02:48. > :02:56.groups, done. You wanted us to join up the different parts of the NHS,
:02:56. > :03:00.to put integration right at the heart of our reforms, again, done.
:03:00. > :03:05.The first big change is that GPs will no longer be solely in charge
:03:05. > :03:10.of the new groups that will commission most NHS health care.
:03:10. > :03:14.The renamed Clinical Commissioning Groups, will now include other
:03:14. > :03:18.experts, such as hospital doctors and nurses and lay people. Though
:03:18. > :03:24.GPs will still dominate their make up. The significance of clinical
:03:24. > :03:27.commissioning is the Government's response to the concern by hospital
:03:27. > :03:31.doctors and nurses that they were being excluded and GPs were having
:03:31. > :03:33.their place in the sunlight at the expense of other medical groups.
:03:33. > :03:37.That has changed and also there will be patient and public
:03:37. > :03:41.involvement, so a real move towards proper governance of the
:03:41. > :03:46.arrangements. Will it make a huge amount of difference in practice?
:03:47. > :03:49.It won't, devolution of budgets away from the Primary Care Trusts
:03:49. > :03:53.to clinicians at the frontline of care. The second big change is in
:03:53. > :03:57.the speed of the reforms. The new commissioning groups will now
:03:57. > :04:04.assume their role, when they are ready, instead of the original
:04:04. > :04:07.deadline of April 2013. Also relaxed, is the April 2014 deadline
:04:07. > :04:11.for all hospitals to achieve greater independence as foundation
:04:11. > :04:18.Trusts. That is a good thing in many ways, we don't want to see
:04:18. > :04:20.that rushed or bad decisions taken, at the moment we have the problem
:04:20. > :04:24.of Primary Care Trusts and Strategic Health Authorities,
:04:24. > :04:28.tending to almost implode, and we don't want a vacuum there, we don't
:04:28. > :04:33.want to lose all the good-quality managers we will still need to help
:04:33. > :04:38.run the NHS in the future. Perhaps the most controversial change
:04:38. > :04:43.concerns competition. Competition will still be extended, but firmly
:04:43. > :04:48.on quality, not price, and not as an end in itself. There will be
:04:48. > :04:52.stricter rules against a market free-for-all, and cherry-picking by
:04:52. > :04:56.private providers. And the new health regulator, Monitor, won't be
:04:56. > :05:01.able to push competition so much. Such as compelling hospitals to
:05:01. > :05:05.make operating theatres available to private firms. We need to be a
:05:05. > :05:09.little more robust in arguing the case for competition, I think it is
:05:09. > :05:17.a respectable case, and it is about providing more choice and more
:05:17. > :05:20.effective use of resources. I think we do need to be a less on the
:05:20. > :05:24.fence, competition is not a disease. There will be more competition as a
:05:24. > :05:28.result of this bill amended? Eventually, yes. Significantly
:05:28. > :05:32.there were hardly any complaints from the coalition benches in the
:05:32. > :05:35.Commons today. Frankly, the politics of this bill now,
:05:35. > :05:40.reasonably settled, the big question is whether it will make a
:05:40. > :05:45.difference. Perhaps the only real note of dissent from the
:05:45. > :05:49.Conservative side came from Edward Leigh, who asked how watering down
:05:49. > :05:53.competition would help the NHS deliver efficiency savings of 4% a
:05:53. > :05:59.year, in order to stick within its budget and cope with growing
:06:00. > :06:02.demands. We would be surprised if it is possible to achieve a - an
:06:02. > :06:06.improvement in the health service and financial control over a
:06:06. > :06:09.difficult period, and implement the reforms at the same time. That is
:06:09. > :06:13.massive ask when the organisation has been turned upside down and
:06:13. > :06:19.management costs are being put back, the health service will do
:06:19. > :06:23.incredibly well to get anywhere near that.
:06:23. > :06:29.So now ministers and Treasury ministers especially, will be
:06:29. > :06:34.waiting anxiously to see if this bill makes any difference. Whether
:06:34. > :06:40.it achieves the substantial gains which Cameron, Clegg and Lansley
:06:40. > :06:47.originally trumpets. Earlier I went to the Department of Health to
:06:47. > :06:51.speak to its Secretary of State. Andrew Lansley, after these changes
:06:51. > :06:54.take effect, will there be more or less competition in the NHS than
:06:54. > :06:57.previously? The decision about that essentially will be for the NHS
:06:57. > :07:01.commissioners, the local commissioning groups and so on.
:07:02. > :07:07.What drives it is, in order to deliver the best care for patients,
:07:07. > :07:11.how much patient choice they want. That is the essence of this. The
:07:11. > :07:15.competition, the extent of competition is directly the result
:07:15. > :07:19.of how much patient choice you want to give in the service. That's an
:07:19. > :07:24.opaque answer to a pretty straight forward question. You said
:07:24. > :07:28.previously that competition was the way to improve efficiency, correct?
:07:28. > :07:32.Competition is way to increase quality. I think there are various
:07:32. > :07:37.ways of delivering greater efficiency, through redesign of
:07:37. > :07:41.services and developing the pricing system in the NHS. There may be
:07:41. > :07:48.more competition after this rewrite? It is fair to say that we
:07:48. > :07:51.are clear that patients, over time, will get access to more choice than
:07:51. > :07:55.they have at the moment, for example choice for when they go for
:07:55. > :08:01.planned surgery. We are looking for that. It will be phased over time.
:08:01. > :08:04.By comparison in the draft of the legislation, will there be more or
:08:04. > :08:07.less choice? The result of the changes we are making will actually
:08:07. > :08:11.mean that competition and choice will be extended, but will be
:08:11. > :08:17.extended probably over a more phased timetable. What about the
:08:17. > :08:21.involvement of the private sector, it is about what one pound in
:08:21. > :08:26.twenty NHS money spent in the private sector. What do you think
:08:26. > :08:30.it ought to be in ten years time? have no plan for that. What about
:08:30. > :08:33.an ambition? I have no ambition. Would you like it above a pound?
:08:33. > :08:36.ambition is to deliver the best possible care for patients. If that
:08:36. > :08:40.involves the NHS having an opportunity to provide services
:08:40. > :08:47.rather than the private sector, that is fine too. You really
:08:47. > :08:51.literally, honestly do not have a view? I have no plan. It could be
:08:51. > :08:55.less than one pound in twenty? or more. It won't be decisions made
:08:55. > :09:00.by me. Why would I want to have an ambition of a kind like that, if
:09:00. > :09:03.I'm not intending to make the decisions that will result in that
:09:03. > :09:07.outcome. Because you presumably have a vision for how the NHS can
:09:07. > :09:11.be made to work better? Absolutely, it is not about transfering
:09:11. > :09:14.services to the private sector, it is about giving everybody in the
:09:14. > :09:19.NHS, through reform, the opportunity to deliver improving
:09:19. > :09:22.services for patients. What about these commissioning groups of GPs,
:09:22. > :09:28.they were supposed to be formed by 2013, by when do you hope
:09:28. > :09:33.commissioning groups now to be formed? They will be established in
:09:33. > :09:36.2013, but they will only take on the commissioning responsibility,
:09:36. > :09:39.the actual bugetry responsibility when they are ready to do so.
:09:39. > :09:43.is that? Some may want to do so before then, we will help and
:09:44. > :09:47.support them to do. That many will be ready in 2013, if they are not
:09:48. > :09:52.ready and not willing and able to do that job at that point. The NHS
:09:52. > :09:56.comiinging board will step in and take the - Commissiong Board will
:09:56. > :10:00.step in and take the responsibility. Why did you previously have a
:10:00. > :10:05.deadline? We had deadline on the basis we knew we had to transfer
:10:05. > :10:09.the responsibility into the hands of clinicians. We were always clear
:10:09. > :10:13.if they weren't actually able to do so we wouldn't authorise them to do
:10:13. > :10:18.so. Why didn't you ask them before the White Paper? We did. The
:10:18. > :10:22.messages that came back is they did want to set up the GP commissioning
:10:22. > :10:25.groups, but one of the message that is came back, once the Pathfinders
:10:25. > :10:31.started to establish themselves this year, one of the message some
:10:31. > :10:35.of them sent was we want to do this, but we don't think we will be ready
:10:35. > :10:39.in 2013. Is this pat rn of producing White Papers and
:10:39. > :10:44.legislations and then withdrawing and rewriting it one you will
:10:44. > :10:48.continue with? I personally don't intend to. Of course you're not
:10:48. > :10:51.really the one who counts in this, this is David Cameron who says he
:10:51. > :10:55.can be held personally responsible, where does that leave you?
:10:55. > :10:58.issue is, you asked the question, setting out in the White Paper what
:10:58. > :11:01.the principles are, is what you do in a White Paper, the vision and
:11:01. > :11:04.principle also support it. When we have introduced the legislation
:11:04. > :11:07.this year, when you actually produce the legislation t actually
:11:07. > :11:11.brings forward a lot of questions and concerns. What would you do,
:11:11. > :11:14.would you say under those circumstances, well, look, the
:11:14. > :11:17.implementation of this, people have concerns about this, we will just
:11:17. > :11:23.ignore those, or do you say, well, OK f people have concerns, let's
:11:23. > :11:27.stop, let's listen, and if we k let as improve. Some people might say,
:11:27. > :11:30.if the rewriting, the redrafting, the recommendation, the
:11:30. > :11:34.consultation can be accomplished in two months, what on earth were you
:11:34. > :11:37.doing during the seven years you have held this brief? I have been
:11:37. > :11:42.actually arriving at the point where we know we can reform the NHS
:11:42. > :11:46.and make it much better. brought this duff piece of
:11:46. > :11:50.legislation? To be fair the NHS Future Forum didn't say that, they
:11:50. > :11:55.said they can improve it. didn't get it right first time, you
:11:55. > :11:58.had seven years? Even you Jeremy are capable of improvement. We are
:11:58. > :12:02.all capable of improvement? Legislation is capable of
:12:02. > :12:06.improvement. The improvement takes place before you introduce it into
:12:06. > :12:10.parliament? It doesn't actually there are many, most pieces of
:12:10. > :12:15.legislation are improved in the process of scrutiny in parliament.
:12:15. > :12:18.What I think was particularly important here, however, is it
:12:18. > :12:21.wasn't parliamentarians that simply should engage, many of them did
:12:21. > :12:29.with the legislation. There was an awful lot in the legislation that I
:12:29. > :12:33.know, to be frank, was to basically to create a permissive structure,
:12:33. > :12:37.saying to the GP Consortia, you will have to set out how you will
:12:37. > :12:40.structure your patient-public involvement, and how you will
:12:40. > :12:43.structure your relationship with other professionals locally, how
:12:43. > :12:47.you will do these things A lot of people said we don't want to leave
:12:47. > :12:50.it until then but want it set out now. Are you saying you took a
:12:50. > :12:53.piece of legislation through parliament that you knew to be
:12:53. > :12:57.defective? I'm not saying that. Thank heaven force the Liberal
:12:57. > :13:02.Democrats then? I'm not saying that. I'm saying, what is clear is people
:13:02. > :13:05.had concerns, some of them were on the basis of people who were makes
:13:06. > :13:10.misrepresentations or misunderstanding. Some of them were
:13:10. > :13:15.genuine. People who were come together, Pathfinder consortia,
:13:15. > :13:18.around the country, local authorities, people who in
:13:18. > :13:22.foundation trusts saying actually we think we can improve the
:13:22. > :13:26.legislation, and put more clarity into how we will do these things in
:13:26. > :13:32.future, if you engage with us now and spoened respond to this, and we
:13:32. > :13:35.did. - and respond to this, and we did. If there was this was a
:13:35. > :13:38.majority Conservative Government this would not have been changed?
:13:39. > :13:42.We are not in that position. This was a good process Government. I
:13:42. > :13:45.happen to think good Government is about listening to people and
:13:45. > :13:50.coming together. When Paddy Ashdown says this is an occasion for the
:13:50. > :13:54.Liberal Democrats to celebrate, an achievement in getting this
:13:54. > :13:57.legislation rewritten, he's right, isn't he? It is not about anybody
:13:57. > :14:01.winning or losing or celebrating or otherwise, it is about the
:14:01. > :14:04.Government, the coalition Government, getting plans for the
:14:04. > :14:08.NHS, modernisation of the NHS that delivers improving services for
:14:08. > :14:12.patients. It is all about delivering quality for patients.
:14:12. > :14:17.wonder why you didn't plan like that in the first place? If I can
:14:17. > :14:22.do anything to deliver better care for patients I will do it. I will
:14:22. > :14:25.take on my shoulders Mr Were things we could have done and changed
:14:25. > :14:30.earlier. - there were things we could have done and changed earlier.
:14:30. > :14:35.But what is important is getting the strategy ready for
:14:35. > :14:39.implementation for the NHS. That moves us from the place where the
:14:39. > :14:44.NHS was at risk for the future. Everyone knows the pressure ones
:14:45. > :14:49.the NHS, to do nothing was not an option. To modernise the NHS in
:14:49. > :14:52.this way, by engaging the staff and increasing the effectiveness of
:14:53. > :14:57.their work, and putting them at the heart of the decision making, that
:14:57. > :14:59.is critical to make that happen. Thank you.
:14:59. > :15:02.This appetite for getting the Government to change its mind,
:15:02. > :15:05.seems to be growing. Many of the men and women who teach our
:15:06. > :15:09.children in England and Wales, won't be turning up for work in a
:15:09. > :15:13.couple of weeks time. They are angry, or most of the minority of
:15:14. > :15:20.them who bothered to vote in the ballot are angry about changes to
:15:20. > :15:24.their pensions. Remarkably the normally easy going Association of
:15:24. > :15:29.Teachers and Lecturers are striking for the first time in their history.
:15:29. > :15:33.Other union leaders say it presses a summer of discontent. Why are
:15:33. > :15:38.they striking? It is, as you say, all about pensions. The
:15:38. > :15:42.Government's plans to reform public sector pensions generally, means
:15:42. > :15:46.that teachers specifically argue that they are going to be seeing a
:15:46. > :15:51.huge rise in, or drop in their retirement income. They will need
:15:51. > :15:54.to work an awful lot longer to get t they say they will have to pay
:15:54. > :15:58.for more the privilege. Teachers already in the second year of a pay
:15:58. > :16:02.freeze, they say that higher contributions are not affordable,
:16:02. > :16:05.and the Government is about to announce what those increases are.
:16:05. > :16:10.I think what you are seeing is the teachers, if you like, get anything
:16:10. > :16:13.their retaliation early. One leader says it is a shot across the
:16:13. > :16:18.Government bough, they say they have already got a pension
:16:18. > :16:21.agreement that insurance them against greater longevity, what the
:16:21. > :16:25.Government's proposing amounts to nothing more than a tax on teachers.
:16:25. > :16:31.What happened in the ballot? It was interesting, it involved the NUT,
:16:31. > :16:37.and the normal low, moderate, mild- mannered ATL, who have never ever
:16:37. > :16:41.voted for a strike before. They balloted between them 300,000
:16:41. > :16:45.people, the overwhelming majority of those voted to strike, but, and
:16:45. > :16:55.the Government will make something of this, on a very low turnout.
:16:55. > :17:03.
:17:03. > :17:08.The strikes are pencilled in for June 30th. They are going to
:17:08. > :17:12.involve independent schools as well. As things stand, if they go ahead,
:17:12. > :17:15.thousands of schools will be hit across England and Wales, endless
:17:15. > :17:18.parents as well. The Government tonight, someone in the education
:17:19. > :17:22.department told me there is no silver bullet, they do not have
:17:22. > :17:26.contingency plans to keep schools open, it will all come down to
:17:26. > :17:31.individual head teachers on the day, thinking have they got enough staff
:17:31. > :17:35.to teach the kids. Is the feeling this is an outrider
:17:35. > :17:41.for a series of public sector strikes? It has all come about
:17:41. > :17:45.because of the review by Lord Hutton, already reported,
:17:45. > :17:49.recommending sweeping changes to public sector pension arrangements
:17:49. > :17:53.to make them more affordable going forward. Talks are on going between
:17:53. > :17:56.the Cabinet Office, the Treasury and public sector unions. Even
:17:56. > :18:01.before they resume later on this month, just before the teachers go
:18:01. > :18:04.on strike, already unions are talking about further ballots, more
:18:04. > :18:09.strike action possibly affecting much of the six million members of
:18:09. > :18:13.the public sector work force. the Government doesn't change
:18:13. > :18:19.course the risk is that the whole of the public sector, all of the
:18:20. > :18:24.unions in the public sector, will be engaged in co-ordinated strike
:18:24. > :18:31.action. Which nobody wants, and which really won't do anybody any
:18:31. > :18:34.good in the short-term. What's the Government planning?
:18:34. > :18:36.Francis Maude, the Cabinet Office minister says the strike by
:18:37. > :18:40.teachers is completely irresponsible, given that talks in
:18:40. > :18:43.theory are still in play. But you can expect to hear a lot more about
:18:43. > :18:49.legislation to stop the country grind to go a halt.
:18:49. > :18:53.With us now, the general secretary of the Association of Teachers and
:18:53. > :18:57.Lecturers, who you have just heard voted to strike today, Bousted bou,
:18:57. > :19:01.the Conservative chairman of the Education Select Committee, Graham
:19:01. > :19:04.Stuart. How does harming children's education do any good for your
:19:04. > :19:08.members? I have met hundreds of members up and down the country
:19:08. > :19:11.over the last four week, and they don't want to strike, the last
:19:11. > :19:14.thing they want to do is take this action. They believe, and I have
:19:14. > :19:18.heard this from teachers who have been in the profession for years
:19:18. > :19:21.and years. Who joined ATL because they didn't want a strike. They
:19:21. > :19:25.believe the current proposals will be so damaging to the profession,
:19:25. > :19:31.that they are far more damage to go children's education than a one-day
:19:31. > :19:37.strike. So children's education will be damaged if they don't
:19:38. > :19:40.strike? Absolutely. It will be less damaged if they do strike? We have
:19:40. > :19:44.tried everything to get our case across to the Government without a
:19:44. > :19:47.strike. Yes, what our members are saying, yes, if if we don't strike
:19:47. > :19:51.there will be more damage. This has nothing to do with education, it is
:19:51. > :19:57.all about money? Money is important to teachers. What this is about is
:19:57. > :20:04.the future of the profession. Let's just go three years in advance. We
:20:04. > :20:07.have new teachers starting to teach, who have debts of �40,000 or over,
:20:07. > :20:12.who will be expected pay 10% of their salary into a pension, they
:20:12. > :20:19.won't be able to afford to do so. You accept the public finances are
:20:19. > :20:23.in a real mess? Yes they are. Clearly it is as plain as a pike
:20:23. > :20:27.staff, what are you suggesting, teachers lose jobs? This isn't
:20:27. > :20:32.about the public finances. It is? The Teachers' Pension Scheme, at
:20:32. > :20:36.the last valuation was not in deficit. And in 2007, we negotiated
:20:36. > :20:39.changes which meant that new teachers worked longer and we paid
:20:39. > :20:44.more. If the teachers' scheme was in deficit, the only people who
:20:44. > :20:48.would pay would be the teachers. These reforms are not about the
:20:48. > :20:51.public deficit. The reason that unions like this are emboldened,
:20:51. > :20:55.because they have seen the Government bend the knee already to
:20:55. > :21:00.the BMA and other vests interests in the health service, that was a
:21:00. > :21:05.mistake, wasn't it? I wouldn't necessarily say that. The key point
:21:05. > :21:09.here is the one you put to Mary at first, who will we look after, the
:21:09. > :21:15.interests of teachers and their pensions, or the children. I think
:21:15. > :21:19.many of your viewers tonight will wonder why formerly moderate unions,
:21:19. > :21:23.why the negotiations are still going on, it hasn't ended. Why
:21:23. > :21:28.aren't they sitting down with Government looking for solution,
:21:28. > :21:34.not putting shots across the Government's bough in this
:21:34. > :21:38.situation. I know Mary and my goals are to do the best for the children
:21:38. > :21:44.of this country, do you set the example of throwing your toys out
:21:44. > :21:50.of the pram and march out of the classroom for stay and sort this
:21:50. > :21:53.out. People know the Government is in a mess because of what we have
:21:53. > :21:59.inherited. Is public opinion on their side? I think the public will
:21:59. > :22:03.have a lot of sympathy. People are being asked to pay for more less
:22:03. > :22:08.for longer. That is pretty tough, except the big picture is a quarter
:22:08. > :22:14.of us will live to be 100, most of us will live into our 80s. The
:22:14. > :22:19.numbers don't add up. Mary knows that. We negotiated in 2007, as a
:22:19. > :22:22.result of those negotiations teachers will work to 65, our
:22:22. > :22:28.pension contributions increased, if there is any more to pay for
:22:28. > :22:31.longevity, we have agreed to pay it, not the employers, out of teachers'
:22:31. > :22:35.salaries, the Government hasn't done an evaluation of the scheme,
:22:35. > :22:37.it is overdue by a year. This business of walking out of
:22:37. > :22:41.negotiations. We have been in negotiations with the Treasury
:22:41. > :22:47.since February, it took five months to cup up with a paper. We have
:22:47. > :22:50.asked eight questions about the paper and how they have done the
:22:50. > :22:56.calculations and they can't tell us that. The reason is it is badly
:22:56. > :23:02.written and worked out. Any expert will tell you that. We want actual
:23:02. > :23:07.figure about where the fund is, in deficit. You sound angry? We have
:23:07. > :23:11.never voted for strike action in 127 years, with 83% yes in state
:23:12. > :23:17.sector and 83% in the independent sector. Remind us what proportion
:23:17. > :23:21.of your members voted at all? voted. Many MPs will be glad for
:23:21. > :23:26.the 36%. They are not that angry? Many of those didn't vote really
:23:26. > :23:30.don't want to take action, but they are angry. 64%, two-thirds of them,
:23:30. > :23:34.effectively, didn't even bother to vote? The ballot laws in this
:23:34. > :23:38.country say it is a majority, it is a big majority, many Members of
:23:38. > :23:42.Parliament will be very glad stkwhr. It is a big majority of a maul
:23:42. > :23:46.amount of your numbers? For ATL that is a significant result.
:23:46. > :23:51.is an obvious solution to this, change the law as proposed by some
:23:51. > :23:55.of your own members? I hope we don't go down that line. I believe
:23:55. > :24:01.in the professionalism of teachers. I believe it is a fantastic
:24:01. > :24:04.profession, the impact of teaching has reprecussions on the lives of
:24:04. > :24:08.children. You don't see doctors, lawyers and professionals going out
:24:08. > :24:13.on strike, and Mary's union has never done it before, to do it now
:24:13. > :24:18.when we are in the state we are, rather than sitting down, as
:24:18. > :24:22.passionately as Mary does, with the Government, arguing the points, in
:24:22. > :24:26.the studio like this. We have either got to put the pensions of
:24:26. > :24:33.teachers first or the education of children, I hope Mary would join me
:24:33. > :24:37.in always putting the education of children first, not the individual
:24:37. > :24:42.pensioner. I have offered Michael Gove any time. This can be solved
:24:42. > :24:46.simply, take the 3% pensions' tax, which won't be going into the
:24:46. > :24:50.pension. It is a tax on public sector workers, beyond a two-year
:24:50. > :24:55.pay freeze, at a time when the wages haven't gone up at all. Take
:24:55. > :24:58.it off the table and we will go to the proper negotiations Ts not our
:24:58. > :25:02.position there needs to be no changes. We want to know is the
:25:02. > :25:06.scheme in deficit, and a paper about the rational of the changes.
:25:06. > :25:11.We don't want to wait five months for it. We want the figures and
:25:11. > :25:14.facts, if you won't give them to us. She's arguing sympathetically,
:25:14. > :25:18.these are reasonable requests? are, and they need to be made over
:25:19. > :25:23.the table and publicly. We don't want to see professionals going out
:25:23. > :25:26.on strike and putting at risk the welfare of our children.
:25:26. > :25:32.To forecast how heavy the political weather is going to be after
:25:32. > :25:42.today's news of strikes, and desperate NHS reassurances, we turn
:25:42. > :25:49.to our sun lit panel of Danny "wrap up warm" Finkelstein of the Times.
:25:49. > :25:59.And Peter Hyman. Time for what the anyoney's in the Met Office call a
:25:59. > :25:59.
:25:59. > :26:03.significant weather moment. It almost dig fis to say the
:26:03. > :26:07.Liberal Democrats stepped in. Both parties were involved in reversing
:26:07. > :26:11.it in the House of Commons. It was a good thing to do. There is a
:26:11. > :26:19.general view never do a u-turn, because that is what Margaret
:26:19. > :26:24.Thatcher said. That is she didn't want to turn from a bad policy to a
:26:24. > :26:28.worse one. This is a good policy. You are saying come back the way
:26:28. > :26:32.you came, a slight deviation as from Lansley later? To put
:26:32. > :26:36.legislation to the House of Commons and then realise you have to change
:26:36. > :26:43.it is inevitably a u-turn and not dignified. It is still the right
:26:43. > :26:49.thing to do. The Tories have come into line with your policy.
:26:49. > :26:54.neutralised the NHS to have a "hug a nurse" policy. I think this is a
:26:54. > :26:59.question of Cameron's judgment, why did Cameron let Lansley run away
:26:59. > :27:02.with a policy that no-one thought was the correct strategy. What has
:27:02. > :27:08.happened now, which I think is very damaging for the health service, is
:27:08. > :27:15.the politics have caught up with the policy. People have realise
:27:15. > :27:21.thasd no-win policy, and have - realised that it is a no-win policy.
:27:21. > :27:25.The commissioning idea they have doesn't work. Before we go on with
:27:25. > :27:29.the legacy, Olly Grender, marvellous achievement for the
:27:29. > :27:32.Liberal Democrats you would say! That is the line you would like me
:27:32. > :27:37.to pursue. That is the line of Paddy Ashdown and various other
:27:37. > :27:42.Liberal Democrats. Bearing in mind they voted for this legislation?
:27:42. > :27:46.And kicked up a big force in March. Why did they do, that didn't they
:27:46. > :27:50.know what they were doing? As you know a lot of people tend to go
:27:50. > :27:55.through the lobbies not having seen the detail. They agreed with the
:27:55. > :27:59.broad principle but didn't read the detail. They vote for things they
:27:59. > :28:05.don't know about about? They agreed with the principle of what it was
:28:05. > :28:10.about, when it came to the detail, particularly about competition in
:28:10. > :28:13.the NHS they listened to the party conference in March. The biggest
:28:13. > :28:16.problem we have not discussed, there is �20 billion of savings in
:28:16. > :28:23.the National Health Service, and now that these have been so
:28:23. > :28:27.publicly discussed, the reforms so publicly discussed, people will
:28:27. > :28:34.attribute closure that is will happen, happening for savings
:28:34. > :28:38.reasons for these reforms. That is really bad news for the coalition
:28:38. > :28:42.Government. The NHS is a serious problem for the Government.
:28:42. > :28:51.Certainly for the Conservative Party, because it is linked so much
:28:51. > :28:54.to the changed image. There is more political fall-out, I thought he
:28:54. > :28:57.was broken, nah an unsustainable position? A golden opportunity for
:28:57. > :29:02.the Labour Party. It should be a golden opportunity for the Labour
:29:02. > :29:05.Party. I fear as yet they haven't been in the health service debate
:29:05. > :29:09.at the moment? It has been an extraordinary week, last week the
:29:10. > :29:13.Conservative Party, they did fear what would happen when they did
:29:13. > :29:20.this pause. Really the Labour Party managed to drown it out with a
:29:20. > :29:22.story about Ed Balls's new box and Ed Miliband's speech, it was an
:29:22. > :29:27.extraordinary performance. I agree. They have had a lot of open goals
:29:27. > :29:31.this week. It does back to the sense of Ed's strategy and
:29:31. > :29:35.performance. I think they are the fundamental question is what is
:29:36. > :29:39.this leadership for. At the moment we can say he's not hitting hard
:29:39. > :29:44.enough as opposition leader. He would be on the front foot for if
:29:44. > :29:48.he was on the other stuff as well. To be fair for Ed Miliband,
:29:48. > :29:54.allowing him a certain period of being leader, it is typical of the
:29:54. > :29:58.Labour Party, to kick so quickly after they have elected. No-one is
:29:58. > :30:03.kicking, they are asking what he's doing. They have set an exemplary
:30:03. > :30:06.record in looking after useless leaders? The difficulty is there is
:30:07. > :30:11.an expectation of him. Being the third party in terms of interest to
:30:11. > :30:15.people is a very difficult position to be in. What is your reading
:30:15. > :30:19.collectively, we were talking earlier about teachers' strikes.
:30:19. > :30:26.There is a whole wave of public sector strikes, threatened, in one
:30:26. > :30:30.way or another. What is your reading of the public mood on these.
:30:30. > :30:35.Teachers do vote, and those being asked to pay more money into the
:30:35. > :30:39.pensions won't be very happy. You start losing, however people are
:30:39. > :30:44.not very sympathetic to other people's pension rights to start
:30:44. > :30:48.off with. Particularly when they are paid through tax-payers' money
:30:48. > :30:53.and they don't like strikes. I suspect the politics won't work out
:30:53. > :30:58.for the public sector unions who go on strike. We will work out
:30:58. > :31:06.actually, Governments are always lucky if they get to fight fights
:31:06. > :31:10.rather than the other side. It is not a fight the Government want at
:31:10. > :31:16.the moment but it could end up better. What goes on in some
:31:16. > :31:20.aspects of the private rather than public sector, I'm sympathetic
:31:20. > :31:24.enough as a teacher saying we didn't cause the financial mess,
:31:24. > :31:29.why are the public sector taking the pain of that. It was left to
:31:29. > :31:34.this Government when they came into office. It is the fault of the
:31:34. > :31:37.banking industry and then the crash. It is obviously ridiculous to say
:31:37. > :31:41.public servants created the mess, it is certainly the case that
:31:41. > :31:49.increased public spending on things we ultimately turned out not to be
:31:49. > :31:53.able to afford. Something has to be done about it. It is a bit of a red
:31:53. > :31:58.herring to links this to the long- term deficit. Lord Hutton was
:31:58. > :32:03.brought in to solve it, it was identified as a problem by Labour
:32:03. > :32:06.well before the structural deficit. Your reading of the public mood is
:32:06. > :32:12.what? Of course this will be issues, particularly when you look at
:32:12. > :32:17.inflation and cost of living for key workers, thats where it comes
:32:17. > :32:25.into play. That is why it is critically important that the
:32:25. > :32:28.coalition Government looks at ways of taxing people looking at tax
:32:28. > :32:32.threshold. Solving long-term public sector pensions is something that
:32:32. > :32:37.the last Government was attempting to do. It has to be done, doesn't
:32:37. > :32:44.it. Which way do you think Labour will go on the strikes, Lord Hutton
:32:44. > :32:48.is proet moing the reforms, Labour can't really oppose promoting the
:32:48. > :32:54.reforms, Labour didn't oppose them or support them. Again I go back to
:32:54. > :32:58.the big picture, the trouble is there is a picking at overall
:32:58. > :33:02.rather than a specific strategy. Labour's credibility on the economy
:33:02. > :33:06.is the fundamental task over the next four or five years. The Tories
:33:06. > :33:11.have successfully rubbished them, they have to rebuild. That isn't
:33:12. > :33:16.having individual policies. It was the fact that is rubbished them, to
:33:16. > :33:21.be honest. We can debate that, they haven't a strategy on this. We saw
:33:21. > :33:25.in the David Miliband's speech, the beginnings of a strategy emerging,
:33:25. > :33:28.which I think Ed Balls would do well to learn from. If you have
:33:28. > :33:32.that overarching framework, then these other things fit into it,
:33:32. > :33:35.otherwise you don't have the credibility. I think from
:33:35. > :33:42.yesterday's speech, you get a sense that Ed Miliband has the potential
:33:42. > :33:48.to recognise that, but held to hostage by Ed Balls. He's still
:33:49. > :33:52.carrying a torch over there! Are we in for a summer of
:33:52. > :33:57.discontent? When you are reducing real incomes of real people, there
:33:57. > :34:02.will be industrial action I don't think the Government can win that
:34:02. > :34:06.battle, and I think they - I think the Government can win the battle
:34:06. > :34:09.and win the argument, people see the need for reform for pensions.
:34:09. > :34:13.Prior to the general election, all three of us said, very tough times
:34:13. > :34:17.ahead, for whoever gets into power. That would have involved industrial
:34:17. > :34:22.action, and I think that would have been the case whether it had been
:34:22. > :34:25.Labour, majority, Conservative majority whatever. I would make a
:34:25. > :34:30.different point, there is a whole series of issues where the quality
:34:30. > :34:33.of policy making and decision making in this Government is under
:34:33. > :34:37.question. Cameron, partly because of the weakness of the opposition
:34:37. > :34:41.is getting away with murder, he's floating above the Government,
:34:41. > :34:45.letting others like Lansley and Ken Clarke get into trouble with this.
:34:45. > :34:48.Cameron isn't abreast with the detail. Law and order and
:34:48. > :34:53.immigration they are running into trouble on that? They need to get a
:34:53. > :34:56.grip on how policies are made and Cameron's involvement. A lot of the
:34:56. > :35:00.u-turns are having got a grip realising they didn't have a strong
:35:00. > :35:05.enough centre and getting a stronger centre. These produce u
:35:05. > :35:09.turns, but better outcomes. I like a scenario, where even mistakes are
:35:10. > :35:13.made and people are left in their job to put those mistakes right. I
:35:13. > :35:17.think that is very different, that is good thing, that is something we
:35:17. > :35:22.would do in normal working practice, we would make somebody put it right.
:35:22. > :35:26.Come back again soon. In a better world, the clearing up
:35:26. > :35:31.of rubbish wouldn't be something we expected councils to do, because
:35:31. > :35:37.the citizens wouldn't leave rubbish lying about. In David Cameron's Big
:35:37. > :35:43.Society, we would all organise ourselves to such task. We have
:35:43. > :35:49.delegate the it to Stephen Smith, who is supposed to be investigating
:35:49. > :35:52.how other countries do it. To Belgium, if you can look at that
:35:52. > :35:58.country where they have managed well without a Government, they
:35:58. > :36:03.have just had volunteering day. Previously on Citizen Smith:
:36:03. > :36:08.In Gloucester we had a royal weteding street party, I helped
:36:08. > :36:16.arranged, or didn't prevent. Thanks to a course on organising in David
:36:16. > :36:22.Cameron's Big Society. What a swell party it was.
:36:22. > :36:32.I said there was too much eggnog in that punch. WTF, hang about, I know
:36:32. > :36:37.
:36:37. > :36:47.where this is, I'm at mini-Europe in BEEP Belgium.
:36:47. > :37:21.
:37:21. > :37:25.# We must all stick together It's a special day in Brussels. A
:37:25. > :37:31.day when people are encouraged to volunteer to cloon up their city.
:37:31. > :37:37.Now that sounds like the big "big society", some say - the Big
:37:37. > :37:42.Society, some say Grandad, I wanted to find out, - La Grande Societe, I
:37:42. > :37:49.wanted to find out are they on to something, and would a day like
:37:49. > :37:53.this work back home. The Mannequin Pis wears the proud uniform of the
:37:53. > :37:58.city sweepers, how do we know? There was a leak!
:37:58. > :38:03.Shiny new stop cocks are curtesy of the city fathers. Soiled frontages
:38:03. > :38:06.are a thing of the past. If you look at our pavement, we have
:38:06. > :38:10.cobble stones, they are very beautiful but not very smooth. They
:38:10. > :38:16.are difficult to clean just with the broom. You need to have water
:38:16. > :38:24.under pressure to make sure you can take the cigarette butts away.
:38:24. > :38:27.Unfortunately a lot of the dog owners let their dogs pee on the
:38:27. > :38:31.flower spots. Even human doss that from time to time. It is your own
:38:31. > :38:36.fault, you have a statue of a young boy relieving himself? That's right,
:38:36. > :38:43.that is what my Russian guests said yesterday. He said when he saw
:38:43. > :38:52.someone doing, that he said he must imitate your most famous site.
:38:52. > :38:59.Citizen Smith, moderate or good, becoming poor.
:38:59. > :39:05.On Volunteer Day in Brussels, all types take part. Lending a full
:39:05. > :39:10.majesty of the Belgian crown to the occasion is Princess Astrid, she's
:39:10. > :39:17.meeting charity workers at these stalls, but not meeting journalists.
:39:17. > :39:21.You probably thought like me they had bicycling royalty here or
:39:21. > :39:25.segwaying, but we can't interview Princess Astrid to get her views on
:39:25. > :39:32.litter collecting and that kind of thing, it is shame, I have been
:39:32. > :39:36.working hard on my conversational waloon. Would they have treated
:39:36. > :39:42.Belgium's favourite soon, Tintin in the same way, he was a reporter you
:39:42. > :39:50.know. There is plenty to see and do in Brussels, still.
:39:50. > :39:53.It also happens to be open day at the European Council building.
:39:53. > :40:00.Isn't that monsieur Monsieur Van Rompuy, do you like interesting
:40:00. > :40:05.facts about TV, he has never given an interview to Newsnight, up until
:40:05. > :40:11.now. What is your best time on that Mr President, your best time for
:40:11. > :40:16.the Rubik's cub? It is as complicated as the eurozone. It is,
:40:16. > :40:21.we're from BBC television. That's nice, lovely, could we have
:40:21. > :40:25.a quick word for the BBC? Not on the news. Not on the news, just
:40:25. > :40:28.about Volunteer Day, Volunteer Day here in Brussels? Yeah, yeah.
:40:28. > :40:33.is all I wanted to ask you about, is it a good thing, everybody
:40:33. > :40:39.voched in picking up litter, keep - involved in picking up litter and
:40:39. > :40:42.keeping the streets clear. can't have a society without
:40:42. > :40:46.volunteers, people depend only on the public authorities. The free
:40:46. > :40:50.choice and engagement and enthusiasm of people is key for
:40:50. > :40:54.having a sound society. Do you think you have the Big Society in
:40:54. > :40:59.Europe, I don't know if you have heard of the phrase of Mr
:40:59. > :41:05.Cameron's? It is a long-term project. I hope you enjoy your cube,
:41:05. > :41:15.many eyes of private fiddling there. Thank you.
:41:15. > :41:22.There is even a build-your-own- scare crow competition. We toured
:41:22. > :41:26.the tattered termillions with MP Emma McClarkin. Are Belgians better
:41:26. > :41:30.at being citizens than we are, or the same? It is not for me to cast
:41:30. > :41:36.about saying who is the best citizen in the European Union,
:41:36. > :41:41.whether Belgian or Britain. We as British people like to take
:41:41. > :41:44.responsibility for our actions and we foster that spirit. We are
:41:44. > :41:48.better? I would say we are fantastic. There is nothing we can
:41:48. > :41:52.learn from our friends over here? There is lots we can learn in lots
:41:52. > :41:56.of different areas, the Big Society is one of those areas to grow and
:41:56. > :42:00.learn from other people. They have a secret weapon here, reserved for
:42:00. > :42:07.people who make a mess of the place, or allow their pets to. Here he
:42:07. > :42:14.comes now. Any second now. # Like a bat out of hell
:42:14. > :42:18.# When the morning comesle It is a motorbike with a vacuum
:42:18. > :42:26.cleaner attached. This baby can go from nought to slurry in the blink
:42:26. > :42:32.of an eye. Have you any special power can you use a Taser on dog
:42:32. > :42:34.owners if they foul the streets? TRANSLATION: Absolutely no power.
:42:34. > :42:44.People are sometimes gobsmacked, some of them think about what they
:42:44. > :42:49.are doing. Others not at all. But I have no power to apprehend people.
:42:49. > :42:55.You're like the Mad Max of dog poo in this country, there is no other
:42:55. > :43:05.way of putling it? Not really, in a certain way I suppose so. My
:43:05. > :43:07.
:43:07. > :43:12.friends respect me too much to give me a nickname.
:43:12. > :43:16.It's all very well laying on an anti-litter train, what if people
:43:16. > :43:21.don't want to get on board. I can't say I have seen too many volunteers
:43:21. > :43:27.cleaning the streets today. I expected to see people picking up
:43:27. > :43:34.rubbish, but I haven't seen that much? TRANSLATION: In some parts of
:43:34. > :43:37.town, there were locals, along with 300 of our cleanliness ambassadors
:43:37. > :43:41.cleaning pavements. Not so much in the centre of town, but lots of
:43:41. > :43:46.shopkeepers joined in, it was a success. Do you think people in
:43:46. > :43:54.this country are more interested in helping the society than perhaps
:43:54. > :43:58.British people? No. I don't think so. Really? TRANSLATION: It is very
:43:58. > :44:02.difficult to change people's mentalties, Belgians and people
:44:02. > :44:06.living in Brussels often have anti- social reflexes, what we are trying
:44:06. > :44:15.to do with this day is change people's mentalties to respect
:44:15. > :44:20.their environment. David Cameron may be tempted to try
:44:20. > :44:30.a Volunteer Day at home, if so he might also like to borrow an old
:44:30. > :44:36.
:44:36. > :44:46.Belgian adage about making a A movie by Newsnight.
:44:46. > :45:17.
:45:17. > :45:21.The end. That's all tonight. We have had
:45:21. > :45:24.enough cautionary tales about the perils of who you can trust in
:45:24. > :45:27.cyberspace. But now the Ministry of Defence is warning its servicemen
:45:27. > :45:31.and women to be careful what they disclose to their friends and
:45:32. > :45:38.family when they whroing or tweet. In the war on terror d when they
:45:38. > :45:48.blog or tweet, in the war on terror, careless talk can cost lives.
:45:48. > :46:15.
:46:15. > :46:19.careless talk can cost lives. we are.
:46:19. > :46:23.I hope you enjoy Tuesday's sunshine, the weather is on the slide. A
:46:23. > :46:27.scattering of showers moving in from the west during the course of
:46:27. > :46:30.the day. Pretty hit and miss, brighter spells inbetween. The
:46:30. > :46:34.ever-present risk of the odd shower. A lot of cloud around, certainly
:46:34. > :46:38.more than there was on Tuesday. Any brighter spells, temperatures doing
:46:39. > :46:43.pretty well. High teens, possibly low 20s, to be aware that the rain
:46:43. > :46:47.will never be too far away. A few brighter glimpses, difficult to
:46:47. > :46:50.nail down exactly where, the hope that most of us will see as useful
:46:50. > :46:53.dryer and brighter spells, the cloud will thicken again and bring
:46:53. > :46:57.the threat of further showers. For Northern Ireland, after a rather
:46:57. > :47:01.cloudy start, things should improve here, with some of the best of the
:47:01. > :47:04.sunshine through the afternoon, lifting those temperatures up to 16
:47:04. > :47:09.or 17. For Scotland most of the showers staying to the west of the
:47:09. > :47:13.hills have had a chance of saying largely dry further east. Looking
:47:13. > :47:17.into Thursday, more of the same, a scattering of showers, decent
:47:17. > :47:21.brighter spells across the more northern parts of the UK, perhaps
:47:21. > :47:24.some heavier showers for a time further south. Temperatures easing
:47:24. > :47:29.down, that is trend continuing through to the end of the week.
:47:29. > :47:33.Thursday's picture again is a messy one, isn't it, one area of shower