:00:13. > :00:18.There $25 million on his head. Zairzairzair is the new Al-Qaeda
:00:18. > :00:22.leader. Tonight, exclusively we hear from his sister, who says he's
:00:22. > :00:29.not the savage men he is portrayed to be. He knows not that style at
:00:29. > :00:34.all, he's not that style at all, even now.
:00:34. > :00:40.Also tonight, Greece on the brink, the epicentre of a Euro-crisis how
:00:40. > :00:43.close are they to defaulting on their ever-increasing debt.
:00:43. > :00:51.Greek people have made many sacrifice, they have a limit, that
:00:51. > :00:54.beneath this limit we can't live. Here in the studio, the Greer
:00:54. > :00:59.perspective on the crisis, should they ditch the euro.
:00:59. > :01:04.Is the heat going out of the battle on climate change, our science
:01:04. > :01:11.editor is here. Some scientists think a less active sun may buy the
:01:11. > :01:21.time we need to engineer our way to a cooler planet. Collier and
:01:21. > :01:28.
:01:28. > :01:33.Campbell celebrating 50 years of dazzling design.
:01:33. > :01:37.Al-Qaeda, now we have a face on the monster. The man to be the
:01:38. > :01:44.strategic brains behind Al-Qaeda, Ayman Al-Zawahiri has been given
:01:44. > :01:48.command according to jal jas year and, Al-Jazeera, he trained as a
:01:48. > :01:51.doctor and surgeon, and thought to be in hiding along the border
:01:51. > :01:56.between Afghanistan and Pakistan. Middle East experts are divideds
:01:56. > :02:01.too whether he has the ability to unite the different faction that is
:02:01. > :02:11.make up Al-Qaeda. We have had exclusive access to Al-Zawahiri's
:02:11. > :02:12.
:02:12. > :02:18.sister. For years the chief idealist and
:02:18. > :02:20.tactition of Al-Qaeda, righthand man of Osama Bin Laden, and the
:02:20. > :02:24.operational brains behind the deadliest attacks. Ayman Al-
:02:24. > :02:29.Zawahiri is now confirmed as its commander.
:02:29. > :02:34.I believe, from my own experience is Al-Zawahiri is more extreme than
:02:34. > :02:42.Bin Laden. The man so skilled at getting
:02:42. > :02:48.people blown up used to be a doctor in Cairo. He opened a clinic, a
:02:48. > :02:55.private clinic and because he's very nice and he's supports the
:02:55. > :03:01.poor people, a lot of poor people and poor families gathered in his
:03:01. > :03:08.clinic. They started to talk about how far the Muslim people are
:03:08. > :03:15.depressed and suppressed in this country. In 1981, after the
:03:15. > :03:20.assassination of President El-Sadat, hundreds of Islamist suspect,
:03:20. > :03:25.including Ayman Al-Zawahiri were arrested. We believe in our
:03:25. > :03:30.religion, in m the practice and we tried our best to establish this
:03:30. > :03:36.Islamic state and Islamic society. He was cleared of plotting El-
:03:36. > :03:40.Sadat's assassination, but jailed for holding arms and tortured.
:03:40. > :03:46.state security used to take people, just to show them, Ayman Al-
:03:46. > :03:52.Zawahiri, in the prison, they used to hang him and beat him and expose
:03:52. > :03:57.him to everything that can give him pain, using electricity, water,
:03:57. > :04:01.whatever. On the surface you would not expect Al-Zawahiri to become a
:04:01. > :04:06.radical. Certainly not committed to violence. He came from the upper-
:04:06. > :04:10.classs of Egyptian society. We want to speak to the whole world. What
:04:10. > :04:14.really radicalised him was the court experience, you can see from
:04:14. > :04:18.the court experience that he's becoming a leader of men. Then the
:04:18. > :04:22.vicious treatment that was methed out to him by the large - meted out
:04:22. > :04:27.to him by the large Egyptian Security Service who is would
:04:27. > :04:32.torture him in his cell. After his release, Ayman Al-
:04:32. > :04:36.Zawahiri moved to Afghanistan where the mujahideen were fighting the
:04:36. > :04:41.Soviet occupation. Years later, his Egyptian-Islamic Jihad group,
:04:41. > :04:47.joined forces with Al-Qaeda. He lacked Bin Laden's charisma, but
:04:47. > :04:51.his anti-western vision was wider, and his organisational skills
:04:51. > :04:55.greater. Al-Zawahiri he is one of the few people who deal with
:04:55. > :04:59.organisation as a weapon, not just a structure. From my own experience
:04:59. > :05:06.I met with just a few people, they understand the difference between
:05:06. > :05:09.organisation as a structure or organisation as a lethal weapon.
:05:09. > :05:15.Many intelligence sources believe Ayman Al-Zawahiri was the main
:05:15. > :05:20.tactical planner of the 9/11 attacks.
:05:20. > :05:25.But now, ten years into America's war on terror, the organisation
:05:25. > :05:34.he's taking over is a different, less centralised one, autonomous
:05:34. > :05:39.branches of Al-Qaeda have sprung up in Iraq, North Africa and Yemen.
:05:39. > :05:43.He is the best known figure in Yemen now appears to have more
:05:43. > :05:47.influence among potential Jihadi, particularly in the best than Ayman
:05:47. > :05:51.Al-Zawahiri. In many ways Al-Zawahiri is the
:05:51. > :05:56.wrong man at the wrong time. Because what Al-Qaeda needs right
:05:56. > :06:00.now is an inspirational leader, who, through his words and charisma can
:06:00. > :06:05.inspire attacks abroad. They don't need a general at a time when they
:06:05. > :06:09.don't have an army. They don't need a manager at a time when there is
:06:09. > :06:13.nothing to manage for Al-Qaeda central, because they do not have
:06:13. > :06:19.troops that would necessarily be able to orchestrate another 9/11.
:06:19. > :06:25.So what I anticipate will happen is that there will be a competition,
:06:25. > :06:30.almost an interfactional war between the affiliate, especially
:06:30. > :06:36.Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, and the central leadership of Al-
:06:36. > :06:39.Qaeda in Pakistan. My hunch, at this point is, is Al-Qaeda in the
:06:39. > :06:41.Arabian Peninsula will be more successful. But others think Ayman
:06:41. > :06:45.Al-Zawahiri can still command discipline throughout the
:06:45. > :06:49.organisation. According to man who once knew him
:06:49. > :06:56.well, he may be planning an operation in North Africa this
:06:56. > :07:00.autumn, involving the possible execution of French hostages to
:07:00. > :07:04.embarrass Nicolas Sarkozy. Qaeda's next move, I have very
:07:04. > :07:09.strong information, it's very solid, without a doubt. The next move is
:07:09. > :07:19.going to be like, it starts from North Africa. They will use the
:07:19. > :07:19.
:07:19. > :07:26.AQIM, they will utilise the French hostages. They are already under
:07:26. > :07:31.their control. The AQIM, they will make sure President Sarkozy he will
:07:31. > :07:34.never ever make it for the second term as President of France. It's
:07:35. > :07:39.going to be a very good chance for Al-Zawahiri to express his
:07:39. > :07:46.authority as a real leader of Al- Qaeda, dealing at the international
:07:46. > :07:49.stage. Whether or not that's true, it is clear Al-Zawahiri wants to
:07:49. > :07:56.regain momentum in Al-Qaeda's struggle with the west. But his
:07:56. > :08:02.ability to do so may be gradually slipping away. Joining me now is
:08:02. > :08:06.our diplomatic editor Mark Urban. You heard the view there would be
:08:06. > :08:11.competition in the film. How do you think Al-Zawahiri will be received
:08:11. > :08:17.among the faithful? There was some time between the death of Osama Bin
:08:17. > :08:20.Laden and this announcement, a lot of people in the agencies that
:08:20. > :08:24.follow the counter terrorist scene was saying there was division in
:08:24. > :08:30.the organisation. It is true to say that Al-Qaeda, in its form that we
:08:30. > :08:35.know it, is partially its creation. It is the folding in of the
:08:35. > :08:39.Egyptian Jihad into the organisation that made it what it
:08:39. > :08:43.is. At this point the thing could explode in a sense, the factional
:08:43. > :08:49.tensions in it could come to the fore. The main threat to him, I
:08:49. > :08:53.think, is the so-called Libyan group, three particular Jihadist
:08:53. > :08:57.leaders who are said to doubt his direction and to be restive. The
:08:57. > :09:01.truth is, in situation like this, where the organisation is being
:09:01. > :09:06.pursued, hunted by the Americans in the way it is, pursued in many Arab
:09:06. > :09:11.countries too, the fact that he has such a long history at the top of
:09:11. > :09:14.the organisation, knows where individuals are, bank accounts,
:09:14. > :09:18.means of organising and communication channels did give him
:09:18. > :09:21.a decided advantage. How will he be viewed and what tactics will be
:09:21. > :09:25.employed by the western intelligence agencies? There is
:09:25. > :09:29.undoubtedly this line of analysis that goes, he will try to impress
:09:29. > :09:34.the organisation with a spectacular, that line could have been applied
:09:34. > :09:37.to anybody who would have taken over at this jucture in the wake of
:09:37. > :09:42.the killing of Osama Bin Laden. I think there will be quiet faction
:09:42. > :09:45.in the agencies, because he has some name recognition, and for
:09:45. > :09:49.agencies that are looking to defend their budgets and their efforts in
:09:49. > :09:55.the wake of the killing of Bin Laden, for someone like Al-Zawahiri,
:09:55. > :10:00.who is a Jihadist heavyweight, to have taken over, is, in that sense,
:10:00. > :10:06.useful. While his very devisiveness as a character within the militant
:10:06. > :10:12.underground, is also useful if that tips off some inside struggle or
:10:12. > :10:18.increasingly disobedient action, if you like, from Jihadist leaders in
:10:18. > :10:22.the other parts of the Arab world, supposed to owe him loyalty.
:10:22. > :10:25.Tomorrow the German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, and the French
:10:26. > :10:30.President, Nicolas Sarkozy, will meet in Berlin to try to find a way
:10:30. > :10:35.out of the Greek crisis threatening to engulf the euro. A new bailout
:10:35. > :10:39.is still being negotiated. Tonight n at then, the Government still
:10:39. > :10:46.seems in danger of unravelling, a cabinet reshuffle is under way with
:10:46. > :10:50.a vote of confidence to come. We are in the capital witnessing this
:10:50. > :10:56.vicarious moment. In the morning after the riot there
:10:56. > :11:01.is still tear gas in the square. The battle signs around St Agnes
:11:01. > :11:04.Square are all too evident and so is the political tension. Here is a
:11:04. > :11:11.building covered in graffiti, splattered with missile, fire
:11:11. > :11:15.damage around the back, the graffiti says "police murderers
:11:15. > :11:18.German collaborators", the problem is, this is the Greek finance
:11:18. > :11:24.ministry. This is the place that lost control of Greece's debt, and
:11:24. > :11:29.is now struggling to put things right. And just on its doorstep, a
:11:29. > :11:33.story in microcosim of what has gone wrong. These women have been
:11:33. > :11:37.camped here for 16 days. They are hardly anti-capitalist, they are
:11:37. > :11:43.lawyers and accountants, who have passed exams to become tax
:11:43. > :11:50.collectors in the ministry. But there is no money to find them jobs.
:11:50. > :11:53.It is unpredictable right now. Our future, even our close future is
:11:53. > :11:57.unpredictable, in three months or six months we don't know what will
:11:57. > :12:02.happen. We hope, of course, that's the best we can do. The irony is,
:12:02. > :12:07.Greece needs more tax collectors, its tax revenues have fallen this
:12:07. > :12:16.year, even after it pledged to increase them. Her message to the
:12:16. > :12:24.Finance Minister, stark. He has to take some measure, of course, but
:12:24. > :12:30.he has also to know that the Greek people have made many sacrifices,
:12:30. > :12:35.and that they have a limit that beneath this limit we can't live.
:12:35. > :12:40.He has to respect us. Meanwhile, in parliament, the
:12:40. > :12:44.comings and goings of politicians signalled drama.
:12:44. > :12:48.Rocked by yesterday's riots, and with his parliamentary majority
:12:48. > :12:54.evaporating, the Greek Prime Minister, began a reshuffle, and
:12:54. > :12:56.tried to stiffen his MPs. TRANSLATION: Now is the time when
:12:56. > :13:01.we cannot shirk our responsibilities. Now is the time
:13:01. > :13:06.when we must get to work. Now is the time when we must send a
:13:06. > :13:11.message to our society: now is the time when we must say yes to facing
:13:11. > :13:15.up to major decisions, here and now, all of us.
:13:16. > :13:21.International leaders rallied round. The IMF lift add deadline that
:13:21. > :13:27.would have forced Greece into a debt default as early as next week.
:13:27. > :13:31.President Sarkozy made this plea. TRANSLATION: I am calling on
:13:31. > :13:35.everybody to demonstrate their spirit of responsibility, and a
:13:35. > :13:39.sense of necessary compromise on which the euro is created. We need
:13:39. > :13:42.to defend our single currency, we need to defend our European
:13:42. > :13:46.institutions. This is our task, to do everything to preserve the
:13:46. > :13:48.stability of the eurozone, because without stability, no growth is
:13:48. > :13:55.possible, and we are all affected and we must take these decisions
:13:55. > :13:59.now. But the fundamental problem remain,
:13:59. > :14:04.the new Greek austerity plan, the people are hostile to it, and the
:14:04. > :14:10.centre right opposition party has rejected it. Today, its economics
:14:10. > :14:17.chief told me why? It needs to be a new way of thinking, that has three
:14:17. > :14:23.key elements, measures to restart the economy we suggested seven key
:14:23. > :14:28.pillars, we made significant suggestions in an aggressive growth
:14:28. > :14:32.plan. Without measures to restart the economy, we believe the
:14:32. > :14:36.privatisation will not in themselves produce the result they
:14:36. > :14:41.need in order to restart the economy. That is one side of the
:14:41. > :14:45.problem, here is the other, in St Agnes Square, where the protest
:14:45. > :14:48.camp has survived the street battle, they are holding out for much more
:14:48. > :14:52.than a reshuffle or coalition Government. They want the IMF to
:14:52. > :14:57.leave. If we get national Government, is that enough for
:14:57. > :15:00.people here to just disperse and go back to normal? Absolutely no. The
:15:00. > :15:05.thing is, and the thing that George Papandreou and the rest of the
:15:05. > :15:12.people in the system of governance don't seem to realise, this is not
:15:12. > :15:16.about a single person standing as an MP, people have had enough with
:15:16. > :15:20.the entire system of Government, this would include the others, the
:15:20. > :15:24.journalists and the businessmen all supporting them. What today has
:15:24. > :15:28.been about, essentially, is the politicians trying to regain the
:15:28. > :15:36.initiative from the protestors, but because the economic pain just will
:15:36. > :15:40.not go away, neither will this. George Papandreou, a man on the
:15:40. > :15:48.receiving end of an entire nation's anger and discontent, will have to
:15:48. > :15:52.endure some more. Paul stayed up for us to be live in
:15:52. > :15:56.Athens tonight. Any closer Paul to a proper Government or even an
:15:56. > :16:00.austerity plan. Mr Papandreou's problems started
:16:00. > :16:04.today when he tried to reshuffle the Government, as I understand it,
:16:05. > :16:08.various ministers weren't picking up the phone quickly enough. The
:16:08. > :16:12.problems increased as one member of his party tried then to call a
:16:12. > :16:16.meeting to unseat him. That speech you saw there was Papandreou seeing
:16:16. > :16:20.that challenge off. He's now stablising his own party in
:16:20. > :16:24.parliament, although with a much reduced majority. What will now
:16:24. > :16:28.happen, he will get through the weekend, appoint a cabinet that
:16:28. > :16:32.agrees with him, but then the fun begins. The austerity package is
:16:32. > :16:36.not really acceptable, either to the Greek people, or to the
:16:36. > :16:41.opposition, or to many of his own MPs. And what this IMF pullback
:16:41. > :16:45.from the brink has done today is really give everybody time to ask
:16:45. > :16:49.themselves the question, could they re-think the austerity package.
:16:49. > :16:52.What the centre right's objection to it is, is it does the cuts, it
:16:52. > :16:56.does the privatisation, but it has nothing to stimulate growth. What
:16:56. > :16:59.they are suggesting, which will not be music to the ears of the
:16:59. > :17:02.European Central Bank, nor to German voters, is tax cuts to
:17:02. > :17:05.stimulate growth. It is straight out of the right-wing economics
:17:05. > :17:10.play book, and it makes sense to them. But it is something that Mr
:17:10. > :17:14.Papandreou has written out of the picture, in his negotiations with
:17:14. > :17:20.the European Union and the IMF. Tell me, what do you think
:17:20. > :17:22.President Sarkozy, and indeed the IMF, what is the key thing they are
:17:22. > :17:26.concentrating on? What's concentrated their minds is what
:17:26. > :17:32.went on right behind me, that is the Greek parliament, and St Agnes
:17:32. > :17:36.Square in front of it, yesterday. And the international community are
:17:36. > :17:40.kind of convinced that the Greeks were prone to rioting and striking
:17:40. > :17:44.and these were basically left-wing protests, organised in a quite
:17:44. > :17:48.tokenistic manner. What has happened in the last month, is this
:17:48. > :17:51.so-called indignant movement, where up to 20 or 30 towns across the
:17:52. > :17:56.country, they have seen their town squares occupied, not by leftist,
:17:56. > :17:59.but by people, such as you saw in my report. Ordinary middle-class
:17:59. > :18:04.and working-class people, who just don't want this. When you see that
:18:04. > :18:09.depth of anger, that depth of opposition to austerity, and then
:18:09. > :18:12.you see it break out on to the streets, utterly violently as it
:18:12. > :18:17.did, with all the international media here, it has changed the mind
:18:17. > :18:21.of the international community. The IMF just said why are we pushing
:18:21. > :18:25.Greece towards a default when its own people are prepared to push it
:18:26. > :18:29.far more vigorously towards the same solution, I would still say we
:18:29. > :18:34.are nowhere near a solution here that is acceptable to the Greek
:18:35. > :18:38.people. And the Greek people are, I think, going to push this to a
:18:38. > :18:44.default scenario, whether the politicians want it or not.
:18:44. > :18:48.Joining me now is Pryce, the Greek- born former head of the UK's
:18:48. > :18:54.Government's economic service. Matina Stavis, a former editor of a
:18:54. > :18:59.Greek newspaper based in London, and Sajjan Gohel, member of the at
:18:59. > :19:03.this tank for European policies. Are your heads in your hands, where
:19:03. > :19:06.is the real world in Greece, there has to be an austerity package?
:19:06. > :19:11.There has to be, but with an end game. If you are a politician
:19:11. > :19:14.trying to make people take so much main for such a long time, you must
:19:14. > :19:17.explain to them what exactly it is you are doing, this Government has
:19:17. > :19:22.failed to do that. These people on the streets aren't stupid, they
:19:22. > :19:25.know what is going on, will there be a functioning Government to
:19:25. > :19:27.deliver the austerity package? is a good question, there may not
:19:27. > :19:31.be. We will see what happens with the vote of confidence, happening
:19:31. > :19:36.at the beginning of next week, there will be a debate about this,
:19:36. > :19:39.we will still end up with serious change, where possibly a Government
:19:39. > :19:42.of National Unity may materialise. That Government of National Unity
:19:42. > :19:46.will fare no better if that scenario is one that could happen
:19:46. > :19:55.now, people in the studio saying they don't want that, we want to
:19:55. > :20:00.push forward to default? I'm not sure they are saying default, the
:20:00. > :20:03.reprecussions would be horrendous, people would lose their money it
:20:03. > :20:06.would be terrible. Is Greece governable at the moment? Anything
:20:06. > :20:09.is governable, you need to be serious, you need to have experts
:20:09. > :20:13.and to be able to communicate and negotiate, and unfortunately this
:20:13. > :20:19.particular Government has been failing on these fronts. The Greek
:20:19. > :20:23.people are perreceiving them as just being the yes - certificate
:20:23. > :20:30.receiving them as being the question men.
:20:30. > :20:36.- perceiveing them as being the yes men.
:20:36. > :20:41.The Greeks know they don't have to deliver the austerity package
:20:41. > :20:46.because the IMF will bail them out? They hold the thump cards, they
:20:46. > :20:53.have realised what is at stake is the euro. The whole project might
:20:53. > :20:57.collapse. It is right, isn't t the Greeks hold the trmp card, the
:20:57. > :21:02.Germans - trump card, the Germans won't force this? Only in the short
:21:02. > :21:07.run, they can force the Germans and others to pay up once now, a second
:21:07. > :21:13.time next year, sooner or later the German tax-payers and others will
:21:13. > :21:20.revolt, that will put the euro into jeopardy. The euro can live without
:21:20. > :21:23.Greece, but not without Germany. will be tougher for exports without
:21:23. > :21:31.countries like Greece and Ireland. There is some kind of Machiavellian
:21:31. > :21:35.reason for keeping Greece there. the exports of Germany to Greece
:21:35. > :21:41.are a small proportion of our exports. German exports are booming
:21:41. > :21:49.going to China and India and the emerging markets. The peripheral
:21:49. > :21:54.Euro-areas is not a growth area for Germany, that is not the key
:21:54. > :21:59.problem blem. - problem. It may not be now, but it was a few years ago.
:21:59. > :22:03.With the creation of the euro, the Greeks, Portuguese and the Irish
:22:03. > :22:08.have been buying German goods, and they have kept the euro rather low,
:22:08. > :22:11.without that we will end up with a strong euro that will kill the
:22:11. > :22:17.locomotive that is Germany right now. Do you think Germany will
:22:17. > :22:21.eventually give up on Greece? immediately, but if it goes on like
:22:21. > :22:24.this if the Greeks say they don't like austerity, they want more
:22:25. > :22:29.growth and to be able to consume more, that cannot be paid by the
:22:29. > :22:33.Germans and the other northern Europeans. There may be a push by
:22:33. > :22:37.the politicians to pay now, but not tomorrow or the day after tomorrow.
:22:38. > :22:40.This is a highly one dimensional view of things, apart from the
:22:40. > :22:45.weakness or strength of the euro, apart from the matter of exports,
:22:45. > :22:54.we have to consider the exposure of German banks and other European
:22:54. > :22:58.banks to Greek and other peripheral debt. Commerce bank has failed to
:22:58. > :23:04.offload Greek debt it has on the book, that is a serious liquidity
:23:04. > :23:09.problems, how will the banks deal with that? The German Government is
:23:09. > :23:13.certainly able to bail out the banks and Germany banks. Another
:23:13. > :23:19.bailout, you don't like bailing out Greeks or Irish or Portuguese s
:23:19. > :23:23.that not a moral hazard problem. There is certainly a moral problem,
:23:23. > :23:26.just as every country bailing out your own banks is one thing,
:23:26. > :23:30.bailing out somebody else abroad is a different thing. That would be in
:23:30. > :23:34.any country in the world no different. Vicky Pryce, there is
:23:34. > :23:37.surely also a problem with simply flight of capital from Greek banks
:23:37. > :23:40.at the moment, Greeks are removing their money? We have seen that, it
:23:40. > :23:45.is a rational thing to do. I don't think we will have a solution in
:23:45. > :23:48.Greece unless there is a bailout of the banks. The Greek banks need to
:23:48. > :23:52.be recapitalised and the German banks. It needs to be accepted that
:23:52. > :23:56.there has to be a solution to the whole issue, that will include,
:23:56. > :23:59.Greece, Ireland, Portugal, that will require loss, and I'm afraid
:23:59. > :24:03.the Governments will have to step in and make sure the banks remain
:24:03. > :24:07.safe, otherwise it will be a serious issues everywhere,
:24:07. > :24:12.including Germany. Isn't there a problem that if there is political
:24:12. > :24:16.instability in Greece, and that carries on, there is much less
:24:16. > :24:21.likelihood of Germany taking a softer line, even of President
:24:21. > :24:25.Sarkozy pushing this softly line? do believe that sooner or later the
:24:25. > :24:29.Greeks will have to come up with a credible Government to go on, this
:24:29. > :24:32.Government has been credible to the eyes of the Europeans and the IMF,
:24:32. > :24:38.let's make that clear. They have not been credible to the eyes of
:24:38. > :24:42.the Greek population. We should not be fixating on Greece. It has
:24:42. > :24:48.already been made clear the systemic nature of the problem,
:24:48. > :24:53.such a systemic problem must have a systemic solution. One solution is
:24:53. > :24:56.there has to be rescheduling of some sort, a voluntary, orderly
:24:56. > :25:00.reprofiling. Again and again? and for all, it has to happen with
:25:00. > :25:04.a number of other countries. What also needs to happen is the IMF
:25:04. > :25:07.needs to come up with a long-term, sustainable recovery plan, not a
:25:07. > :25:13.short-term austerity package, the Greeks then will accept what the
:25:13. > :25:16.Government is doing and it will be governable. A once and for all
:25:16. > :25:21.restructuring, would you accept that? What do you mean by that,
:25:21. > :25:24.cutting the Greek debt, that I think is really what is needed. You
:25:24. > :25:27.have to realise there is a fundamental difference between
:25:27. > :25:33.Greece and Ireland and Portugal, Ireland has done everything it has
:25:33. > :25:36.been asked for, there is no revolution, and it is going well
:25:36. > :25:40.there. Greece is the only country that hasn't. It is different in
:25:40. > :25:44.each country, we have the same problem, it doesn't matter where it
:25:44. > :25:47.is originated. One final thought, is anyone actually in charge in
:25:48. > :25:51.Europe, is that a major problem? That is spot on, actually. What's
:25:51. > :25:54.happening in Greece and we are talking about Greece being
:25:54. > :25:59.ungovernable and thrown in a political crisis a mere reflection
:25:59. > :26:03.of what is happening in Brussels, I would argue it is Miss Merkel's
:26:04. > :26:09.position that it is she who should step up and provide that
:26:09. > :26:14.sleedership, because Germany has reaped the benefits of the euro and
:26:14. > :26:19.been a regional leader. Angela Merkel has to step up to the plate?
:26:19. > :26:23.She has her failings, but in Greece we had a precise programme a year
:26:23. > :26:27.ago that has not been fulfilled. They tried but they couldn't get
:26:27. > :26:30.the administration to implement it, as was said earlier, Government
:26:30. > :26:34.revenues were supposed to be up, they are down, expenditure is up,
:26:34. > :26:40.not a down. With such a Government and such a society you can't deal
:26:40. > :26:44.with them. Just to confirm that, you alluded to it earlier, you
:26:44. > :26:49.think Germany will just give up on Greece? They will have no choice,
:26:49. > :26:54.if Greece continues not to keep its promises. Thank you very much.
:26:54. > :26:57.Now, we think of the sun as a constant sizzling star. But rather
:26:57. > :27:01.like most teenagers, the sun gets spots from time to time, and those
:27:01. > :27:05.spots increase the amount of energy its firing at the earth, apparently
:27:05. > :27:10.we're going through a particularly unspotty stage, which you might
:27:10. > :27:15.think would be good news for global warming, that in itself brings more
:27:15. > :27:20.problems and ones that can't be solved, even with Clearasil. What
:27:20. > :27:25.is the problem at the moment with all these sunspots, what do they
:27:25. > :27:30.mean? The first thing you need to know, is the sun has active and
:27:30. > :27:34.quiet phase, this go in an 11-year cycle. It co-relates with the
:27:34. > :27:39.appearance of sunspots. That is the dark patches we see here. They are
:27:39. > :27:43.areas of intense magnetk activity, the more sunspots you have, the
:27:43. > :27:49.more energy radiated towards the earth and the warmer planet we have.
:27:49. > :27:53.The fewer sunspots the less energy radiated and a cooler planet. Some
:27:53. > :27:58.scientists have been reporting that the sun is behaving oddly, it is
:27:58. > :28:03.unexpectedly quiet at the moment. The quiet nature of the sun isn't a
:28:03. > :28:06.surprise as such, the sun always goes through this minimum in
:28:06. > :28:10.activities, what is surprising is how quiet it is. It has been
:28:10. > :28:14.extremely quiet, at its quietest for 100 years now. The he can peck
:28:14. > :28:19.station is, looking at the current data, is it will probably continue
:28:19. > :28:24.to get quieter. The sunspot number will drop and drop. How far it
:28:24. > :28:31.drops that's still open to debate. This has happened before, most
:28:31. > :28:36.memorably in the 17th century, when we saw frost fairs on the River
:28:36. > :28:40.Thames, rivers normally frost-free frozen over. Scientists are saying
:28:40. > :28:44.that is the most we can expect, much cooler regions of the planet.
:28:44. > :28:48.The idea that we are entering a global Ice Age is quite far wide of
:28:48. > :28:51.the mark. But can we think of all of this now, this cooling
:28:51. > :28:55.cancelling some of the global warming? Not really. Because we
:28:55. > :28:58.still have the issue of rising greenhouse gas, and if we look at
:28:58. > :29:03.some of the predictions and modelling into the future, the
:29:03. > :29:07.suggestion is we could see our planet warm by the end of the
:29:07. > :29:10.century to anything between 1.5-4.5 degrees. Whatever the sun does
:29:11. > :29:15.isn't going to be enough to counter that and save from us global
:29:15. > :29:19.warming. We do need to worry about climate
:29:19. > :29:22.change, even if the sun was going to compensate over periods of
:29:22. > :29:26.perhaps decades, then of course what will happen is eventually the
:29:26. > :29:30.sun will turn round, starting to more active, and then we would be
:29:30. > :29:34.in a situation with a more active sun and hygiene house gas, that
:29:35. > :29:39.would be even worse. Some scientists are worried about the
:29:39. > :29:43.worse, they say we don't have time to persuade people to use energy
:29:43. > :29:49.more efficiently, or reduce emissions, and what we need to do
:29:49. > :29:53.now is geoengineer our way out of this. What is geoengineeringing?
:29:53. > :29:56.This is large scale, sometimes whacky science fiction-sounding
:29:56. > :30:02.project, very ambitious. We will have a look at the top three.
:30:02. > :30:06.Number three we have the idea of shielding the earth which firing
:30:06. > :30:10.giant mirrors into space, basically the idea being that these mirrors
:30:10. > :30:15.reflect back the sun's radiation into space. We would need many
:30:15. > :30:23.thousands of these. Millions? Possibly. Number two we have a plan
:30:23. > :30:29.to deal with the oceans to try to make them more fertile, chucking
:30:29. > :30:34.human wee into the oceans to make it more fertile to encourage the
:30:34. > :30:40.growth of plankton, they would absorb CO2 and sink to the ocean
:30:40. > :30:44.floor when they are dead. We have schemes to suck carbon dioxide out
:30:44. > :30:50.of the at moss stpee, artificial tree, they would take - atmosphere,
:30:50. > :30:56.art fix tree, they would take it - artificial trees and they would
:30:56. > :31:00.take it in and bury T it is called carbon scrubbing, it is used by
:31:01. > :31:04.divers, that explains the contraption in the studio. It looks
:31:04. > :31:09.complicated but it is a simple advice to allow dive Tories
:31:09. > :31:15.rebreathe their own breath. Inside - drivers to rebreathe their own
:31:15. > :31:22.breath. Inside is soda lime, it is calcium hide drok side, what
:31:22. > :31:27.happens is the breath is scrubbed clean of carbon dioxide so they can
:31:27. > :31:32.rebreathe for many hours. Even some of the whacky one there is some
:31:33. > :31:37.have been tested to an experimental level. Next week the United Nations
:31:37. > :31:43.IPCC panel on climate change will look at the potential and risks of
:31:43. > :31:49.the geoengineering ideas. I will expend more energy, I will cross
:31:49. > :31:54.the studio to be joined from San Francisco by a member of the
:31:54. > :31:57.steering group of the International Panel on Climate Change and the
:31:58. > :32:05.chief scientist in from Greenpeace. These ideas of geoengineering, it
:32:05. > :32:09.is kind of whacky, isn't it? Many of them sound whacky, at first, and
:32:09. > :32:13.many of them are whacky. I would just like to separate myself from
:32:13. > :32:16.one comment that was made in the introduction, in that most people
:32:16. > :32:23.who propose these kinds of options are proposing them because they
:32:23. > :32:27.feel it is very important to cut emissions deeply, and soon. But
:32:27. > :32:31.we're afraid these emission, reductions are not coming fast
:32:31. > :32:35.enough to avoid the risk of catastrophic climate change, so we
:32:35. > :32:39.need to start looking into other mechanisms that could reduce risk.
:32:39. > :32:44.What about the idea that you are putting sulphur into the air, you
:32:44. > :32:52.are jetting up thousands, millions of aerosol, how on earth can that
:32:52. > :32:56.be good for the atmosphere? In 1991 there was a huge volcano in the
:32:56. > :33:00.Philippine that is put a lot of material into the stratosphere, and
:33:01. > :33:07.the next year the earth cooled. And had that amount of material stayed
:33:07. > :33:12.in the stratosphere, it would have been enough to offset on a global
:33:12. > :33:16.average basis all of the warming expected for this century, we know
:33:16. > :33:20.these things can basically work, what are the unintended adverse
:33:20. > :33:27.effects to investigate. I will talk about that in a minute,
:33:27. > :33:32.let's talk about firing giant mirrors into space, is that a
:33:32. > :33:36.realistic option? I think the scale of that makes it a little
:33:36. > :33:42.unfeasible, you would need to build more than a square kilometer of
:33:42. > :33:48.satellite every half hour, which I think renders it unfeasible.
:33:48. > :33:53.The IPCC will be discussing this Weekend, does that worry you, is it
:33:53. > :33:57.- this week, does that worry you? It is an expression of failure to
:33:57. > :34:01.talk about tinkering with the earth's climate because we can't
:34:01. > :34:05.get loft lagging right, it is the position we are in. We are in a
:34:05. > :34:09.very serious situation, but some of the things we need to do to tackle
:34:09. > :34:15.climate change are fairly straight forward, and we don't needing to
:34:15. > :34:19.down this route. Let's talk about them, we raised the possibility of
:34:19. > :34:24.unintended consequence, what might they be? Geoengineering comes at
:34:24. > :34:28.range of different possiblities, but quite a few of them involve
:34:28. > :34:34.impacting on the earth's climate in ways we don't fully understand.
:34:34. > :34:39.They will almost certainly be differentiating impact, some will
:34:39. > :34:43.win and some will lose. We could impact rainfall, and cause some of
:34:43. > :34:47.the problems we are trying to stop in climate change. Even if they
:34:47. > :34:53.work, even if they can be agreed, we have still got this problem that
:34:53. > :34:56.we have to keep doing them just to keep the planet stable.
:34:56. > :35:01.principle is, if human beings contributed to climate change, and
:35:01. > :35:07.climate change is man made, you think there should be a man made
:35:07. > :35:13.solution to rectify it? I think dough and I are both in agreement
:35:13. > :35:16.that the best solution to transform the energy solution into one that
:35:16. > :35:25.doesn't use the atmosphere as a waste dump. That transition is not
:35:25. > :35:31.coming rapidly enough to make me feel comfortable. You think
:35:31. > :35:38.geoengineering will happen? I'm not about to predict the future, I
:35:38. > :35:42.think that these geoengineering options in a situation where we
:35:42. > :35:44.have catastrophic climate change might be able to save lives, so we
:35:45. > :35:50.should investigate whether our well-being could be improved
:35:50. > :35:55.through these approach, but I do not think these approachs are a
:35:55. > :36:01.substitute for emissions reduction. Do you let the culprits off the
:36:01. > :36:06.hook by saying things aren't moving fast enough so we have to up the
:36:06. > :36:11.ante? This is a danger. For me the most important thing is for people
:36:11. > :36:16.to think there is an easy technical solution so we don't need to
:36:16. > :36:20.transform our energy solution, there are risks that these things
:36:20. > :36:24.could produce the kind of add vrs outcomes we have just spoken -
:36:24. > :36:28.adverse outcomes we have just spoken about. There is the
:36:29. > :36:34.potential that famines can be averted if an ice sheet slips into
:36:34. > :36:38.the ocean or methane comes out of Siberia. We want to know the
:36:38. > :36:41.options and some may involve drastic things. My worry about the
:36:42. > :36:45.immediate discussion is we can already see, you tour the websites
:36:45. > :36:50.you can already see people talking about climate, saying let's not do
:36:50. > :36:56.any of that difficult stuff, let's do the cheap and easy stuff. Do you
:36:56. > :37:00.sense the political will is going out of the argument? The political
:37:00. > :37:04.will can be reignited there are a whole range of things that can
:37:04. > :37:07.reignite emphasis on political capital around climate change,
:37:07. > :37:11.including the domestic benefit, when you look at Fukushmia, Libya,
:37:11. > :37:14.the Middle East, you look at rising gas price, you think maybe there is
:37:14. > :37:16.a better option, those are the kinds of things we are often
:37:16. > :37:21.pushing. Thank you very much. You probably
:37:21. > :37:27.never heard of them, but you have almost certainly slept beneath a
:37:28. > :37:33.duvet cover bearing one of their designs, or worn a dress featuring
:37:34. > :37:40.one of their bold patterns. One of the most prolific partnerships ever
:37:40. > :37:46.produced, the sisters Collier and Campbell, will be celebrated at the
:37:46. > :37:50.museum. Their designs will be produced for stores such as habitat,
:37:50. > :37:53.and worn by Yves Saint Laurent. Sadly, Susan Collier, the older of
:37:53. > :38:01.the sisters, died just as the exhibition was being put together.
:38:01. > :38:07.I spent the day with the other half of the colourful duo.
:38:07. > :38:10.It is about life itself, not really a copy of anything, or an idea.
:38:10. > :38:16.is also about tell ago story. I think that each of these designs
:38:16. > :38:20.has its own story, and it is part of a narrative. Susan Collier was
:38:20. > :38:23.just 22, and Sarah Campbell, a teenager, when they began designing
:38:24. > :38:27.textiles. We grew up in a house where there was just colour on
:38:27. > :38:33.everything. There was patterns. were completely surrounded by print
:38:33. > :38:37.of all kinds and weaving, and colour, and cloth, and that was all
:38:37. > :38:42.just normal. Wielding their paint brushes, they created everything
:38:42. > :38:47.from curtain material, to cushions, from high treat fashion to couture.
:38:47. > :38:54.It is something you would want to be with, isn't it, it is beautiful.
:38:54. > :38:56.Exsub rent. So many of the design - Exuberant. So many of the designs
:38:57. > :39:02.look pressure, it is hard to believe they were 30 or 40 years
:39:02. > :39:08.ago. This is where we paint. In the beginning they worked exclusively
:39:08. > :39:12.for the iconic store Liberty of London, with their front rooms as
:39:12. > :39:15.the workshops. Even now this tiny artisan space be lies a success
:39:15. > :39:19.that travels the world. This is the little key that tells us what
:39:19. > :39:23.colours goes on what screens, these are the colour tabs. Colour is
:39:23. > :39:27.always very important to us. Our mum used to give us bits of fabric
:39:27. > :39:33.and paint and ask us to match it, which we were good at. I don't know
:39:33. > :39:37.how we learned to do it but we did. Was art important, so the most
:39:37. > :39:42.obvious influence has always been Matisse. I know Susan speaks often
:39:42. > :39:47.of the Matisse book that my parents had. I remember them coming home,
:39:47. > :39:52.they had bought a little Ivan Hitchings painting, it was the high
:39:52. > :39:56.spot of my childhood. We came from a very left-wing family, our
:39:56. > :40:01.parents' work was very much, I think both of them, in their very,
:40:01. > :40:05.very different ways, were very creative, very investigative, and
:40:05. > :40:10.there was never any question Take That's sort of work one does, and
:40:10. > :40:13.it is perfectly OKment we never had to prove anything to them. Is there
:40:13. > :40:18.a political overtone to how you think about your work? There is a
:40:18. > :40:21.view that good design should be available for everyone, if that is
:40:21. > :40:27.political or just common decency I don't know. I don't know if those
:40:27. > :40:32.two words go together. They are amazing, they are textile designers
:40:32. > :40:36.in a true tradition, some how. They haven't succumbed to all the sort
:40:36. > :40:44.of machinery and the digital things, and photo copiers and this and that,
:40:44. > :40:48.it is so easy to do on a computer now. Their work is so kind of
:40:48. > :40:55.really joyous. When you worked with your sister, how did you work
:40:55. > :40:58.together, how did you do it? was much more the voice of Collier-
:40:58. > :41:04.Campbell and the public side of us. She was brilliant at managing the
:41:04. > :41:11.work and getting work and all of that. I suppose I suppose more of
:41:11. > :41:17.my time was spent painting and drawing. Traditionally. We would
:41:17. > :41:21.discuss the my nugsia of think of these - the minuscule of any of
:41:21. > :41:26.these things, the rhythm, the pattern and the harmony. Throughout
:41:26. > :41:31.the years the sisters designed clothes for themselves, in 1971
:41:31. > :41:36.Yves Saint Laurent expressed an interest in using their fabric for
:41:36. > :41:40.his haute couture collection. How much of a step change was it when
:41:40. > :41:44.Yves Saint Laurent came calling? was a terrific opportunity. He
:41:44. > :41:49.didn't call to us direct, he was calling through Liberty, we were
:41:49. > :41:53.working with Al-Libbi of London Prints. It gave us I suppose two
:41:53. > :42:00.things, one is that he recognised the fun of it and the lovely
:42:00. > :42:04.painting, and to see what he made of what we did was so full of
:42:04. > :42:08.energy, so pretty, and it gave us the marvellous opportunity to do a
:42:08. > :42:16.lot of work around the theme that is he loved. Was he complimentry?
:42:17. > :42:21.think in the use it was a compliment, yes. I think the
:42:21. > :42:26.signature of Collier-Campbell has to be colour, the wonderful way in
:42:26. > :42:32.which the fabrics move, their richness, the heat that comes out
:42:32. > :42:35.of many of their works, it's so unEnglish, and yet they are
:42:35. > :42:40.quintessentially English in the way which they build on the traditions
:42:40. > :42:44.of Morris and others. We are being told that manufacturing in the UK
:42:44. > :42:49.is on the decline, what do you think about that? I think it is
:42:49. > :42:52.very sad, I wish it wasn't so, maybe it will grow again. To see
:42:52. > :42:56.the printing industry, which was such a huge and wonderful industry
:42:56. > :43:00.in Britain gone, and to think that we live on island made of coal and
:43:00. > :43:05.surrounded by sea which is full of fish, is pretty sad when we can't
:43:05. > :43:11.seem to use any of that. I'm sad for it. I think back, even to when
:43:11. > :43:17.we started and Liberty of London Prints were printing down on the
:43:17. > :43:20.river Wandall in Merton were William Morris printed, and the
:43:20. > :43:25.printing sheds were so vibrant and lovely, and the people were hand
:43:25. > :43:28.printing, and hanging up the cloth in the ceiling of the sheds, it was
:43:28. > :43:34.a wonderful atmosphere and a lovely place, that is what the printing
:43:34. > :43:40.was about. On May 7th this year, Susan Collier died. We did decide
:43:40. > :43:46.to paint her coffin, when I say "we", I painted with her two
:43:46. > :43:51.drawers, and their two daughters, it was - two daughters, and their
:43:51. > :43:54.two daughters, it was in the studio, we had to bring it in so it didn't
:43:54. > :43:59.alarm the neighbours, it was quite a laugh to do it. There was a lot
:43:59. > :44:03.of fun and a lot of crying at the same time. It was great thing to do.
:44:03. > :44:07.How does Sarah Campbell see the future of Collier-Campbell without
:44:07. > :44:11.her sister and working partner of over 50 years? It will be very
:44:11. > :44:15.different, I can't imagine not having my working partner, who I
:44:15. > :44:19.have worked with pretty well every day of my life, all my working life,
:44:19. > :44:22.with me. And yes it will change, because we have other people here
:44:22. > :44:28.helping us, but we will still be painting, painting, painting, that
:44:28. > :44:38.is what I love, and that's what I'm good at.
:44:38. > :44:38.
:44:38. > :45:20.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 41 seconds
:45:20. > :45:24.Tomorrow morning's front pages That's all from Newsnight tonight,
:45:24. > :45:27.we return to the problems in Greece for just a moment. We have obtained
:45:27. > :45:31.footage of one of the most committed protestors who hasn't
:45:31. > :45:41.missed a riot for the last three years and always on the frontline,
:45:41. > :45:45.
:45:45. > :45:48.we think his name is Fido! # There's a voice that keeps on
:45:48. > :45:52.calling me # Down the road
:45:52. > :45:56.# It's where I'll always be # Every stop I make
:45:56. > :45:59.# I'll make a new friend # Can't stay for long
:45:59. > :46:03.# Just turn around # I'm gone again
:46:03. > :46:07.# Maybe tomorrow I'll want to settle down
:46:07. > :46:17.# Until tomorrow # I'll just keep moving on
:46:17. > :46:19.
:46:19. > :46:24.# Down this road Today's heavy showers are fading
:46:24. > :46:27.But there's no cloud and rain to come tomorrow. Initially the wetter
:46:27. > :46:30.weather drives northwards up the western side of the UK, then we
:46:30. > :46:35.push rain into eastern areas during the afternoon. I don't think there
:46:35. > :46:39.will be much rain to the east of the Pennine, always wetter in North
:46:39. > :46:43.West England. Later in the day through the Midland, East Anglia
:46:43. > :46:47.and the south-east Midlands, the rain will push back the
:46:47. > :46:51.temperatures, a cool southerly breeze picking up along the south
:46:51. > :46:55.of England, in the south west there could be evening sunshine in
:46:55. > :47:00.Cornwall and Devon in the rain. Sunshine in Wales, clouding over
:47:00. > :47:03.quickly, rain becoming steader and heavier across the Brecon beacon,
:47:03. > :47:06.heavier rain will clear away from eastern parts of Northern Ireland,
:47:06. > :47:11.then back into the bog standard sunshine and showers you might say,
:47:11. > :47:14.it will turn wetter in Scotland as main pushing northward, the far
:47:14. > :47:18.north not doing too bad. In Inverness, very little rain here,
:47:18. > :47:22.there will be rain moving into Edinburgh, that rain will continue
:47:22. > :47:27.on Friday as well. Looking further south the wet weather doesn't
:47:27. > :47:32.really go away, temperatures 14-15, less cold on Saturday, but there