:00:11. > :00:15.The President of Syria claims he's open to reform, and no-one but his
:00:15. > :00:20.supporters believes him. With independent foreign reporters
:00:20. > :00:24.banned, we go inside Syria undercover, and find a protest
:00:25. > :00:29.movement that believes there is no going back, the dictatorship has to
:00:29. > :00:34.fall. We find out what life is like inside the country. We talk to one
:00:34. > :00:38.of Al-Assad's ministers about how he's a much misunderstood man. Also
:00:38. > :00:43.tonight: Lots of different bikini waxing and
:00:43. > :00:47.intimate waxing that cover all sorts of styles that cover hair or
:00:47. > :00:52.diamantes. What makes a woman decide her
:00:52. > :00:59.natural body hair is something to get rid of. How do you become a
:00:59. > :01:02.feminist in a highly sexual ised society. Our guests talk porn,
:01:02. > :01:06.butic about hair and who's exploiting who.
:01:06. > :01:10.Facing another four years in the wilderness, the Labour Party casts
:01:10. > :01:13.about for a big idea and comes up with something called Blue Labour,
:01:14. > :01:23.the man behind the philosophy face as critic from the Labour front
:01:24. > :01:24.
:01:24. > :01:29.bench. If the President of Syria thought a
:01:29. > :01:33.few words about his regime, being mother and father to the people,
:01:33. > :01:37.would persuade the world he's not a tyrant, he was wrong. The European
:01:37. > :01:40.Union said vague talk about possible reform wasn't enough, and
:01:40. > :01:44.plans more sanctions. There is noticably no talk of military
:01:45. > :01:50.action. In a minute we will talk to Sue Lloyd Robert who is has just
:01:50. > :01:54.come back from Syria where she was undercover. First our diplomatic
:01:54. > :01:59.editor? What did he say? This is the third speech he has made since
:01:59. > :02:04.the crisis started. To our eyes his performance in the speech ace peers
:02:04. > :02:09.a little surreal. He wants - appears a little surreal. He wants
:02:09. > :02:16.to radiate the man in control, he smiles and makes an effort to looks
:02:17. > :02:20.a possible - to looks a calm as possible. He referred to the
:02:20. > :02:25.opponents of the regime as saboteurs, he said he wasn't going
:02:25. > :02:30.to dwell on. That he added this thought. TRANSLATION: What do we
:02:30. > :02:34.say about this media and political pressure, what about the advanced
:02:34. > :02:38.phone West see spread across Syria, what do we say about all the
:02:39. > :02:43.falsification we have seen. We can't say it is a charitable cause,
:02:43. > :02:49.that is conspiracy, and we won't waste our time on it.
:02:49. > :02:58.So, he sketched out the conspiracy he has mentioned before "new
:02:59. > :03:03.technology", "new media" all of. That he went on to open a new
:03:03. > :03:09.nuanced idea, he appeared to extend a hand to the Muslim Brotherhood,
:03:09. > :03:13.he talked about when we were violently suppressed in the past,
:03:13. > :03:18.very rare to hear that from a leader like this. There seems to be
:03:18. > :03:22.a reaction to pressure from Turkey in particular, he seemed to be
:03:22. > :03:25.trying to create the impression that he had been involved in a
:03:25. > :03:30.wide-ranging consultation with the Syrian people and he had learned a
:03:30. > :03:34.lot along the way. TRANSLATION: covered many topic, some were local
:03:34. > :03:39.issues, some national, my priorities are topics that affect
:03:39. > :03:42.the vast majority of people. The people have expressed, in their
:03:42. > :03:49.meetings, their anger, mixed with love, because they felt their
:03:49. > :03:52.country had strayed away from them. Either through some policy, or some
:03:52. > :04:00.practices. I have seen much suffering, some to do with income,
:04:00. > :04:06.and standards of living, and some to do with dignity of citizens.
:04:06. > :04:09.have the people of Syria reacted to this speech? We have got used to
:04:09. > :04:12.the fact that Friday is the main day for demonstration, because
:04:12. > :04:16.people naturally congregate in mosques throughout this trouble in
:04:16. > :04:20.Siria. But the President's speech actually managed to create massive
:04:20. > :04:26.demonstrations on a Monday. There were extensive demonstrations in
:04:26. > :04:32.Damascus, as we can see from the Vic tures, and also in the - the
:04:32. > :04:35.picture, also in the port cities. People seemed angered at the term
:04:35. > :04:38."somebodyures" to describe the opposition. What about
:04:38. > :04:43.international reaction to the speech? The international community
:04:43. > :04:47.is in a difficult and interesting position, we know attempted to get
:04:47. > :04:53.a new UN Security Council measure through have faltered because of
:04:53. > :04:56.China and Russia. The EU is looking at new sanctions against Syria, we
:04:56. > :05:00.have been talking about that today. They would aim to wind up the
:05:00. > :05:06.economic pain. We also know that Turkey, that considers itself to
:05:06. > :05:10.have given President Assad quite a few chances is considering more
:05:10. > :05:14.robust action. The conservative interpretation is they want to send
:05:14. > :05:18.troops to seal the border with Syria to stop the refugees coming
:05:18. > :05:22.across. Syria has said it will use its troops to seal the border.
:05:22. > :05:27.There are also rumours flying about the Middle East that Turkey would
:05:27. > :05:31.like to enter Syria and create some sort of safe haven or buffer zone
:05:31. > :05:35.there. Finding out what's happening in Syria is no easy matter, western
:05:35. > :05:42.journalist business and large have been prevented from openly
:05:42. > :05:46.reporting from Syria, Sue Lloyd Roberts has been in Damascus
:05:46. > :05:52.undercover, what is it like? Very tense, there is paranoia among the
:05:52. > :05:56.security force, that makes it very difficult for ordinary people,
:05:56. > :06:00.doubly difficult for a foreigner, we are all considered a spy. Anyone
:06:00. > :06:06.found carrying a camera, it is similar to carrying hard drugs or a
:06:06. > :06:10.gun in this country, it could end you up in prison. It is difficult.
:06:10. > :06:13.How representative were the people you met? I met a good
:06:13. > :06:18.representation of people, from opposition MPs, to students and
:06:18. > :06:22.young people out on the streets. The first clip we will show is of
:06:22. > :06:30.the grand old man of the Syrian opposition.
:06:30. > :06:37.After all that happened, after 1,300 at least, lost their lives,
:06:37. > :06:46.for the revolution, and after 1,000 injured, and tens of thousands
:06:46. > :06:51.arrested, and now we say there is no way to go back to the old
:06:51. > :06:56.situation. Syria is belonging to the Syrians, Syria does not belong
:06:56. > :07:00.to the Al-Assad family. This, let's say, the Al-Assad family, forever,
:07:00. > :07:05.should have been stopped. It is enough. The Syrians would never
:07:05. > :07:09.accept it any more. Riad Seif, who has been campaigning for a
:07:09. > :07:14.democratic Syria for decades. But as he points out, after all the
:07:14. > :07:18.sacrifice, he's saying now there is really no going back. I spoke to
:07:18. > :07:23.very ordinary people, our next clip is from a mother who simply is
:07:23. > :07:26.fighting for a Syria in which she wants her daughter to grow up.
:07:26. > :07:30.TRANSLATION: I don't want my daughter to grow up like I did,
:07:30. > :07:34.having always to say something in one place, something else in
:07:34. > :07:44.another. I want her to be free. I want her to say what she wants,
:07:44. > :07:44.
:07:45. > :07:53.where she wants, when she wants. My daughter watches the TV, and she
:07:53. > :07:56.hears us chanting, "people want the downfall of the regime ". In her
:07:56. > :08:02.innocence, she repeated this in school, and the teacher got really
:08:02. > :08:08.angry, and shouted at her, and told her she had to praise the President.
:08:08. > :08:13.She was upset and confused. That woman, like many people I
:08:13. > :08:17.interviewed had her back to the camera. She was one of the street
:08:17. > :08:21.protestor, she says all she would like to do is to be able to talk to
:08:21. > :08:26.people, in front of cameras, to talk to the world. She was in
:08:26. > :08:31.hiding like many of the people I spoke to. From what you saw of
:08:31. > :08:35.people in Damascus, is Al-Assad's speech going to be enough? They
:08:35. > :08:39.won't be at all impressed. He has made such promised before, they
:08:39. > :08:43.come to nothing. People say they will fight to the end now. When I
:08:43. > :08:46.said who is winning, without a moment's hesitation the people said
:08:46. > :08:48.the people are. There is no going back, they are going to bring this
:08:48. > :08:54.regime back down. Thank you very much.
:08:54. > :08:59.Tomorrow, you will see Sue's full report from inside Al-Assad's Syria.
:08:59. > :09:06.A short while ago I spoke to President Assad's political adviser
:09:06. > :09:12.from Damascus. Why are there so many unhappy
:09:12. > :09:19.people in Syria? Well, to my view today, many people were very happy
:09:19. > :09:25.with the speech of the President. It laid down a vision for a new
:09:25. > :09:29.Syria, for political participation, for national dialogue, for
:09:29. > :09:34.reviewing or reviewing the constitutions. I think it depends
:09:34. > :09:39.who you are covering, if you cover the whole people of Syria, or the
:09:39. > :09:43.two sides of the spectrum, you will see that many people are happy.
:09:43. > :09:48.you saying there are no demonstrations taking place, no
:09:48. > :09:51.killings taking place, no refugeesing fleeing the country?
:09:51. > :09:56.I'm not saying - refugees fleeing the country? I'm not saying there
:09:56. > :09:59.is nothing like that. But I'm saying the President distinguished
:09:59. > :10:04.very clearly between demonstrators who have legitimate rights and
:10:04. > :10:09.groveances on the one hand, and between armed people, who are
:10:09. > :10:16.killing, not only ordinary citizen, but even military and police
:10:16. > :10:26.personnel. We have lost so far over 4 Hun military and police personnel
:10:26. > :10:33.
:10:33. > :10:39.due - 4 Hun military and police personal. There seems to have about
:10:39. > :10:45.the lost of 1,400 people, who did most of the killing? The President
:10:46. > :10:50.has said today the loss of one soul is too much, and no person is
:10:50. > :10:53.guilty of killing Syrian, we discovered a huge amount of
:10:53. > :10:58.armments, we discovered terrorist and armed groups in the country. By
:10:58. > :11:02.the way, this has nothing to do with the demonstrators and with the
:11:02. > :11:12.legitimate rights of the Syrian people, which are acknowledged and
:11:12. > :11:13.
:11:13. > :11:19.which have become the guideline for the movement ahead. Can we continue
:11:19. > :11:24.the question of who killed all the people, 1,400 people dead, how many
:11:24. > :11:29.people have been arrested for the murders? Tens of people have been
:11:29. > :11:33.arrested, some people have been brought to court, some people are
:11:33. > :11:39.still being investigated. We are trying to get all the help we can
:11:39. > :11:48.from the Syrian people to bring everybody to task. It is our
:11:48. > :11:52.interest, it is again our values to have people killed in such numbers.
:11:52. > :11:58.In the particularly well known case of the 13-year-old boy, from the
:11:58. > :12:03.village of Sidon, this is a boy abducted whose body was returned to
:12:03. > :12:07.his family about two weeks, it was covered in burns, it was shot in
:12:07. > :12:13.each arm and his penis had been cut off, who do you suspect was
:12:13. > :12:18.responsible for that? I'm sorry to say that the legal doctor in Syria
:12:18. > :12:23.and all the investigations proved that the stories promoted by
:12:23. > :12:29.multinational media was very far from the truth. The boy was killed
:12:29. > :12:37.on a demonstration, he was not abducted, he was collateral damage
:12:37. > :12:41.on the street, and the story that the international media marketed
:12:41. > :12:46.has absolutely nothing to do with the truth of what happened, and we
:12:46. > :12:51.have a DVD, if you are interested, to send to the BBC about the true
:12:51. > :12:55.story of the child. We put it on our national television five times
:12:55. > :12:59.at least. As you know, the family have posted
:12:59. > :13:04.a video of the body, and it shows a body that clearly had been
:13:04. > :13:09.subjected to torture, are you saying that was fictional was it?
:13:09. > :13:14.No, it wasn't the family who posted that video, the family met with
:13:14. > :13:17.President Assad, and met with the Syrian authorities, and they be a
:13:17. > :13:21.solved themselves from all the stories that were fabricated about
:13:21. > :13:29.the boy. Now going back to the President's speech today, in which
:13:29. > :13:36.he promised reform, how will we know this reform has happened?
:13:36. > :13:40.you would be kind enough to read the entire speech. I have done so
:13:41. > :13:45.I'm asking you how we will know the reform has happened? Well, because
:13:45. > :13:53.the President has laid down what are the things that should be done.
:13:53. > :13:58.He has said that national dialogue is the title of the stage, and we
:13:58. > :14:02.will have the law for political parties, electoral law, new media
:14:02. > :14:07.law, we will review and rewrite the constitution, if needed, all this
:14:07. > :14:10.will be done by the national dialogue, with the time frame, that
:14:10. > :14:15.President Assad said all it should be achieved by the end of the year.
:14:15. > :14:19.By the end of the year you would know that all these things had been
:14:19. > :14:26.achieved. Can you imagine a Syria whose President is not a member of
:14:26. > :14:32.the Al-Assad family? Of course I can. Not a member of the Ba'ath
:14:32. > :14:36.Party? Of course I can. When we are heading for multipolitical party
:14:36. > :14:39.system, we are heading for democracy, we're heading for
:14:39. > :14:43.political participation, anyone who is elected by the Syrian people
:14:43. > :14:48.could be the President of Syria. despite the fact that in the past
:14:48. > :14:54.he has promised reform and it hasn't happened, this time he's
:14:54. > :15:01.serious, is he? In the past he was serious too, but the steps that
:15:01. > :15:04.were taken were not noticed or were not seen to be effective. This time
:15:04. > :15:08.the President, if you read his speech, he has spoken about his
:15:08. > :15:13.meeting with thousands of Syrian people. The President said this has
:15:13. > :15:17.been the most important experience, because we know now the weaknesses
:15:17. > :15:24.and the loopholes in our political, economic and social system, it is
:15:24. > :15:27.certainly in our interests and our desire to address these weaknesses
:15:27. > :15:32.and loophole, this is what we are going to do. Would you say your
:15:32. > :15:38.President was loved by the people? I would. I mean, you don't have to
:15:38. > :15:45.have 100%, you know, all Presidents in all democracies are elected by
:15:45. > :15:52.50 or 60%. I would say our President has a larger margin than
:15:52. > :15:54.this. Loved by about 90% of the people perhaps? Let's say 51,
:15:55. > :16:01.that's enough to be elected! Thank you very much indeed.
:16:01. > :16:04.Thank you. Now, if it was ever true, as Tammy
:16:04. > :16:07.Wynette sang, that sometimes it is hard to be a woman, it is true no
:16:07. > :16:12.longer. Difficulty seems to be a permanent condition. Expected to
:16:12. > :16:16.work like men, but to present themselves for sex as hairless as a
:16:16. > :16:22.child, to see their children brought up in a highly sexualised
:16:22. > :16:26.environment, some how to be mother, breadwinner and porn star, it may
:16:26. > :16:33.not be as oppressive before the days of gender equality, it is
:16:33. > :16:38.certainly more confusing. # Got to do my best to please her
:16:38. > :16:44.# Just because she's a living doll When TV images first invaded our
:16:44. > :16:49.living rooms, it was all so nice. There had been mixed reviews ever
:16:49. > :16:53.since. Last Thursday evening we sat as a family and we saw a programme
:16:53. > :17:03.that started at 6.35, it was the dirtiest programme that I have seen
:17:03. > :17:05.
:17:05. > :17:11.for a very long time. # Ladies here we go
:17:11. > :17:15.We can guess what steely and shockable Mary Whitehouse would
:17:16. > :17:21.have made of all this, a wallpaper of sexual images that surround
:17:21. > :17:26.children, said the latest report, hopefully suggesting ways to turn
:17:26. > :17:31.off the perceived tide of filth. Although he's fighting wars abroad,
:17:31. > :17:35.on this point the Prime Minister is doing battle at home.
:17:35. > :17:38.You can't cut kids off from the modern world, no-one should try, we
:17:38. > :17:46.can help parents to stop their children having inappropriate
:17:46. > :17:53.things put in front of them at too early an age.
:17:53. > :17:57.Sex has always sold. Spare rib feminists railed at male advertiser
:17:57. > :18:02.who is use such images to flog all and Sunday dree item, but who
:18:02. > :18:07.should they target now, when women themselves embrace the look once
:18:07. > :18:11.confined to the top shelf, but now for sale on the high street. It has
:18:11. > :18:17.always been there, and started to filter into every day life probably
:18:17. > :18:22.more and more. As one thing becomes more acceptable, then it is
:18:22. > :18:28.skreeping up to the next level without - creeping up to the next
:18:28. > :18:31.level without people notice - noticing it happening. It is like
:18:31. > :18:35.films and special effects, it is not shocking because we are used to
:18:35. > :18:40.seeing it, it is like the sexual imagery being portrayed in the
:18:40. > :18:47.media today. There was no need for the watershed when the Palladium
:18:47. > :18:53.starred in Sunday schedules. The modern day equivalent looks and
:18:53. > :18:58.sounds very different. Has the media changed, or have women? There
:18:58. > :19:02.is a new trend, rapidly growing in popularity, which I had not heard
:19:02. > :19:12.of until this morning. But I'm going to get to the heart of it.
:19:12. > :19:17.Make that the bottom. This is the world of intimate
:19:17. > :19:27.waxing, where boring old butic about hair is replaced with sparkly
:19:27. > :19:28.
:19:28. > :19:32.- butic about hair is replaced with sparklely jewels.
:19:32. > :19:39.If I walked through the door and asked to be have a jazzled, what
:19:39. > :19:43.would happen? You would - vajazzled, what would happen? You would go
:19:43. > :19:47.into the treatment rooms and you would be given a black book which
:19:47. > :19:52.has a number of descriptive types of waxing with pictures, that shows
:19:52. > :19:59.you all types of styles. You would pick out the style that suits the
:19:59. > :20:09.way you feel and your mood for the day, really. This intimate wax is
:20:09. > :20:14.this about women being strong or weak? I don't think you can depict
:20:14. > :20:20.it either or, it is a grooming regime women have undertaken over
:20:20. > :20:27.the years. Who is it for? It is for mums, grandma, powerful women in
:20:27. > :20:32.the boardroom. Is it for men? for men. Is it to please men?
:20:32. > :20:39.certainly in some instances, women feel they prefer to be more well
:20:39. > :20:47.groomed if they are going on their hot date. Let's see the
:20:47. > :20:53.vaingjazling in action, Fiona is - vagjazzilng in action, Fiona is
:20:53. > :21:00.giving it a go. We can't show you it, this is BBC Two! What brings
:21:00. > :21:05.you here? It is a pain-free wax, it is nice for myself, clean and
:21:05. > :21:09.hygienic, keeping clean for the beach and summer. Nice for your
:21:09. > :21:13.husband? It is nice, but I do it for myself. One woman's treat is
:21:13. > :21:16.another woman's cause for alarm? Control is the problem. Women are
:21:16. > :21:23.always expected to be in control of their sexuality, some how present
:21:23. > :21:31.themselves as sexually continent, actually, vaingjazling which is
:21:31. > :21:35.what it has - vajazzling, is like a castration, you make it look like a
:21:35. > :21:40.child's genitals and you put crystals on, it looks like you have
:21:40. > :21:44.been prepped for surgery by Dr Bling. Assaulted by highly
:21:44. > :21:49.sexualised images whilst beset by the same old issues, modern
:21:49. > :21:53.feminism has been dismissed as paradoxical, perhaps that is why
:21:53. > :21:56.the Slut Walks, marching across cities everywhere are getting
:21:56. > :22:06.attention. They have given women a rallying cry.
:22:06. > :22:14.
:22:14. > :22:20.With us in the studio to discuss she is issues are my guests.
:22:20. > :22:24.Why are women doing this? Can I say first of all I'm happy that he have
:22:24. > :22:28.an episode of Newsnight where we are talking about women's John
:22:28. > :22:32.Lewises with tiny jewel ones it, it is my favourite episode of
:22:33. > :22:40.Newsnight already. That is saying something I bet! There is variety
:22:40. > :22:45.of women doing this for different reasons, firstly fashion, if you're
:22:45. > :22:51.bored, you see celebrities doing it. I find it odd you would remove your
:22:51. > :22:54.pubic hair and carry a dog that looks like the pubic hair. My
:22:55. > :22:57.personal idea is it is pornography, it is done for considerations of
:22:57. > :23:02.lighting. If you have your pubic hair removed you can see things
:23:02. > :23:08.better and it makes other things look bigger. Who is doing the
:23:08. > :23:14.looking? The person who is viewing the pornography, it makes
:23:14. > :23:18.everything clearer. This has come from pornography? The mainstreaming
:23:18. > :23:23.of pornography over the last two decades has infiltrated almost
:23:23. > :23:28.every aspect of our lives. From the way we keep fit through pole
:23:28. > :23:35.dancing and the beauty regime that is women undertake. So removing
:23:35. > :23:39.body hair and Jag jazzling, it is coming are from a porn - vajazzling
:23:39. > :23:44.are coming from that place. Do you think it is wrong women choose to
:23:44. > :23:49.shave off their pubic hair? It is wrong women live in a society where
:23:49. > :23:52.we are compelled to do it. Are they compelled to do it? Speaking with
:23:52. > :23:57.someone who has been with more an the average of men, I would say men
:23:57. > :24:00.prefer a bit of hair. It is a lot of pressure that women are putting
:24:00. > :24:05.on themselves rather than the men saying I want you to look porn
:24:05. > :24:11.perfect. Even when I was working as a call girl, that was by no means
:24:11. > :24:14.what everybody was doing. You would accept this is a practice which has
:24:14. > :24:21.come from the pornography industry? That is where people see it for the
:24:21. > :24:24.first time. But then, the sort of it creeping in other ways, you see
:24:24. > :24:28.somebody after showers after sport, she has had it done, you think that
:24:28. > :24:32.looks all right, I kind of like that. There also might be a status
:24:32. > :24:36.thing, if you have the time and money to do that, it is like being
:24:36. > :24:40.able to wear a very expensive car, you are walking around Virgin
:24:40. > :24:44.Active saying I have the time and money to do that. Cars are
:24:44. > :24:49.generally on display? It is a way of showing off. Who are you showing
:24:49. > :24:53.off to? In a gym, if you are in a changing room and you see other
:24:53. > :24:57.women have done it with that time. This isn't necessarily done for
:24:57. > :25:01.men? For anyone going to see it. Double bubble or show off to ladies
:25:01. > :25:06.that you have the time and money to this, and for men I watch
:25:06. > :25:11.pornography. You find it impressive women do it? No it is a terrible
:25:11. > :25:18.wast of time. Over the years from not waxs I have been able to save
:25:18. > :25:24.up for a giant 3-DTV which gives me and my family pleasure. Is it
:25:24. > :25:29.something women shouldn't do? don't believe anyone should not do
:25:29. > :25:35.anything, I think the fact it is so common and so asthetically common,
:25:35. > :25:38.they think they look lovely. object culture has had an effect on
:25:38. > :25:41.women's self-esteem and how they value themselves. The effects are
:25:41. > :25:45.felt across society, it is not just how women see themselves but how
:25:45. > :25:49.boys see themselves. Boys are starting to treat, or expect them
:25:49. > :25:53.to act like porn stars themselves, the expectation is there, that
:25:53. > :25:57.women are all too aware of. There is a certain amount of boys are
:25:57. > :26:01.very easily disabused of that notion once they start having
:26:01. > :26:06.relationships with actual women. There is a certain amount of the
:26:06. > :26:10.porn aesthetic we think of from the 80s and 90 of lollipop women with
:26:10. > :26:15.the giant implants and fake tan. That is fantasy a boy has between
:26:15. > :26:21.the ages of 12-15. When they get with real women, they want real
:26:21. > :26:26.women. Can you give us examples of the way this sexualisation of
:26:26. > :26:29.society can conditions how people behave? I actually think
:26:29. > :26:35.sexualisation is the wrong word. That implies a broad term that
:26:35. > :26:39.applies to both women and men. If we actually look closely, it is
:26:39. > :26:44.dehumanised images of women and girls being treated as sex objects.
:26:44. > :26:49.When you actually look at pornography itself, the ones that
:26:49. > :26:52.are being dehumanised are the men as much as women. You don't see the
:26:52. > :26:56.men's faces, they are a part for hire, you see the whole women, it
:26:56. > :27:00.is not necessarily the way you want to see her, but the man really is
:27:00. > :27:06.just the stunt part? Pornography is not nice, it doesn't portray anyone
:27:06. > :27:12.in a nice way, we have to remember the pornography which plugs up the
:27:13. > :27:18.Internet is relentlessly violent, relentlessly brutalised towards
:27:19. > :27:28.women. There is a real danger of tarring all erotica with all porn.
:27:28. > :27:32.So many poor arguments with "you Google the word X and therefore Y",
:27:32. > :27:37.why not Google feminist porn. don't think that is the case.
:27:37. > :27:41.Showing real women with real orgasams.
:27:41. > :27:48.I don't have a problem with an overly sexualised society, it is
:27:48. > :27:56.always the same kind of sex you see, very aggressive, American, west
:27:56. > :28:00.coast skimpy dresses, if we had a widely oversexualised cardigan
:28:00. > :28:05.culture it doesn't fit in with our country or broader notions.
:28:05. > :28:11.don't have a problem with pornography per se? I think most of
:28:11. > :28:15.it is boring. Do you worry about the way in which beyond strict
:28:15. > :28:19.pornography, everything is, not everything, but there is so much
:28:19. > :28:24.sexualisation in broader society? mean, I come from a rock and pop
:28:24. > :28:33.background, it is very noticable that all the way through the 80s up
:28:33. > :28:37.until the mid-90s women wore clothes. The fact is now Adele is
:28:37. > :28:41.the only person wearing a sleeved dress in the 21st century.
:28:41. > :28:45.making a very conscious statement? It is all that one kind of
:28:45. > :28:48.sexuality, I sit down with my daughters I make them feel sorry
:28:48. > :28:54.for them. We are sorry for them having to do their dances.
:28:54. > :28:58.Where does this leave feminism in it this very much more sexualised,
:28:58. > :29:04.apparently overtly sexualised society? Over the last five years
:29:04. > :29:08.there has been a real resurge begins in feminist actism at a
:29:08. > :29:12.grassroots levelment for many of the women coming on to the streets,
:29:12. > :29:17.coming on to the street, it is the sex object culture being pushed in
:29:17. > :29:21.their face, from the lads mags they can't avoid going into the local
:29:21. > :29:27.shop. It really is hitting women extremely hard, and it is from that
:29:27. > :29:34.we are seeing a real growth in actism. We have activist groups
:29:34. > :29:40.spreading across the country. it something like a Slut Walk, you
:29:40. > :29:49.can dress any way you like and be a feminist and still expect respect?
:29:49. > :29:52.They are making a statement that no-one takes the fault if they are
:29:52. > :29:59.raped. That is the fundamental message that women are sending out
:29:59. > :30:03.when they go on the Marches. think it is the vajazzling is that
:30:03. > :30:07.thing of one kind of sex, I'm going to straddle you and lap dance about
:30:07. > :30:11.you, nobody will laugh about it, it will be serious and it will cost
:30:11. > :30:14.money. If feminism is going to do anything t should bring the
:30:14. > :30:17.humanity back into sex and the relationships of women. That is
:30:17. > :30:21.where the current economic situation is an opportunity. All of
:30:21. > :30:27.these big producers, the Playboys of the world, which everyone talks
:30:27. > :30:30.about as if it is a giant industry, it is worth less than a tenth of
:30:30. > :30:35.what Facebook is worth. It is dying a death, people don't want to pay
:30:35. > :30:39.the money any more, for the small producer, those at home producing
:30:39. > :30:41.their own porn. That's where it is really going to gain. That is what
:30:41. > :30:45.people want, they don't want anonymous any more, they haven't
:30:45. > :30:49.the cash to spend on it. I don't think that is the case, I think the
:30:49. > :30:53.argument, the solution to the degrading body punishing
:30:53. > :30:58.pornography we see on the internet is the so-called feminist porn,
:30:58. > :31:03.that is a red herring, let's look at where the demand is, the demand
:31:03. > :31:07.is for relentlessly aggressive and woman-hating pornography. I want
:31:07. > :31:10.the statistics on this. On where the majority numbers are. That is
:31:10. > :31:16.fine and a number of women's organisations would be happy to
:31:16. > :31:20.that. Leaving aside whether it is female-
:31:20. > :31:24.exploiting porn or what you call feminist porn, if you dislike it so
:31:25. > :31:28.much what can you do about it? need to start challenging attitudes,
:31:28. > :31:31.challenging young men and boys. Would you try to ban it? I think
:31:31. > :31:37.what we don't know at the moment, we haven't had an open and honest
:31:37. > :31:42.discussion about how you do actually regulate or anything to do
:31:42. > :31:48.with pornography? The women is deciding this behind our backs.
:31:48. > :31:52.have to talk to men and boys who themselves have said in a BBC that
:31:52. > :31:56.they are worried about the pornography they are watching and
:31:56. > :31:59.the images they are seeing, and they would like action around it.
:31:59. > :32:02.It is coming from men and boys themselves. That is something
:32:03. > :32:08.really important to remember in all of this and something on which we
:32:08. > :32:13.probably all agree, men and boys are victimised by a lot of the same
:32:13. > :32:20.imagery as people see as victimising women, it reduces human
:32:20. > :32:23.desire down to a small thing, it is very orgasam focused, and finish
:32:23. > :32:29.focused. It isn't just about the girls, it isn't just are girls
:32:29. > :32:32.going out in sexy skirts r they asking for it. Them and their
:32:32. > :32:37.vajazzling, boys feel a lot of pressure too, we have to consider
:32:37. > :32:42.the wider picture. I can't believe sex ended up costing so much money.
:32:42. > :32:47.Very often when I'm with my husband afterwards we can't believe how it
:32:47. > :32:51.is free. You can't believe the massive industry about it, in the
:32:51. > :33:00.book I have put it is like paying VAT on your vagina, boys aren't
:33:00. > :33:04.having to do this, this seems unfair. We manage to make something
:33:04. > :33:12.and money out of something that is free. Boys have the pressure to
:33:12. > :33:15.look gym buffed and tanned. The Only Way Is Essex is not only about
:33:15. > :33:19.women's body it is men. The industry got in the way, suddenly
:33:19. > :33:22.this huge industry is in the way, you must dress like this and this
:33:23. > :33:28.is how you have sex and how you will look at each and say these
:33:28. > :33:34.things while having sex. People have forgotten how to natural low
:33:34. > :33:39.have sex and copying it from pornography. I feel like that about
:33:39. > :33:42.restaurant review, they have forgotten the pleasure of food.
:33:42. > :33:45.are told the market brings options around sex, it gives us a really
:33:45. > :33:50.restricted and demeaning view of sexuality, which is demeaning to
:33:50. > :33:58.both women and men. What we really need to do is take sex back from
:33:58. > :34:05.the pornographers and reclaim it from ourselves. And make it freaky,
:34:05. > :34:10.and clown porn. I need to find better clown porn.
:34:10. > :34:14.Thank you all very much. It is over a year since the Labour
:34:15. > :34:18.Party lost power, years to go to the next shot at Government, but
:34:18. > :34:22.despite the bad news the Government keeps laying on us, today it was a
:34:22. > :34:27.raft of reforms to pensions, the Labour Party refuses to get any
:34:27. > :34:32.more popular. How to turn things around? The fashionable idea at the
:34:32. > :34:41.moment is Blue Labour, in a minute, Annabel Goldie, the man behind the
:34:41. > :34:46.idea will face - the man behind the idea will face a Labour critic.
:34:46. > :34:56.There is a sense of bravery and tragedy in our position, and that
:34:56. > :34:58.
:34:58. > :35:02.is one meaning of the word "blue", that links Davies with Picasso.
:35:02. > :35:08.Maurice Glasman on Blue Labour. Ever since Ed Miliband's election
:35:09. > :35:13.as lab leader, his party has been grappling with a distinctive
:35:13. > :35:18.philosophy. Blue Labour is the most notable contribution to the debate,
:35:18. > :35:25.causing controversy within the ranks. Maurice Glasman coined the
:35:25. > :35:31.term as an obvious rejoinederism by Red Toryism brought in by Philip
:35:31. > :35:36.Blond, and also in response to Cameron's Big Society. Glasman is
:35:36. > :35:43.described as a Conservative with a small "c "style of Conservatism,
:35:43. > :35:47.that aims to return the party to traditional roots in 1945 the year
:35:47. > :35:53.before Labour's great election victory. He wants to get away from
:35:53. > :35:58.Labour's old style of success. Glasman is highly regarded by the
:35:58. > :36:01.Labour leader, and illustrate bid the fact that last autumn, to some
:36:01. > :36:05.surprise, Ed Miliband made him a Labour peer. Blue Labour's ideas
:36:05. > :36:15.are set out in this book, which is available only on the Internet, and
:36:15. > :36:17.
:36:17. > :36:23.called The Labour Tradition and The Politics Of Parodox.
:36:23. > :36:27.A couple of other former cabinet ministers are quoted, along with
:36:28. > :36:33.Tony Blair's former speech write. But there is also a contribution
:36:33. > :36:38.from the left-wing Labour MP John Crudass. Ed Miliband endorsed the
:36:38. > :36:43.book by writing a forward for it. In a speech last month, backed Blue
:36:43. > :36:47.Labour even further. It goes to the heart of what Maurice Glasman calls
:36:47. > :36:57.Blue Labour, some people have presented this as a nostalgic
:36:57. > :36:57.
:36:57. > :37:01.vision of the past, the Labour equivalent of warm beer, bicycling
:37:01. > :37:09.maidens and for those who don't remember it was something John
:37:09. > :37:12.Major said in the 1990s. It isn't, it is a sense of what we see in our
:37:12. > :37:16.country, people being buffeted by the storm winds blowing through
:37:16. > :37:19.their lives. As his new bride might have said, something old, something
:37:19. > :37:25.new, something borrowed, something blue.
:37:25. > :37:29.But many in the party are deeply suspicious of Maurice Glasman's
:37:30. > :37:34.influence. With us now is the Shadow Minister
:37:34. > :37:37.for prisons, Helen Goodman, who has written an essay attacking Blue
:37:37. > :37:43.Labour, and the man behind it all, Maurice Glasman.
:37:43. > :37:47.How would you describe it? It is traditional Labour, it puts
:37:47. > :37:50.friendship, neighbourliness, hard work, a real commit to the care for
:37:50. > :37:54.your family at the heart of the political agenda. What is your
:37:54. > :37:58.problem with it? I think it is OK as far as it goes, but I think we
:37:58. > :38:06.know that we need a lot more than neighbourliness and commitment
:38:06. > :38:09.between our family. I think the rejection of 1945 is a really big
:38:09. > :38:13.mistake. We better explain that. You are saying the fact that the
:38:13. > :38:16.1945 Labour Government, which many in the movement consider to be the
:38:17. > :38:23.greatest Labour Government of all time, actually wasn't a Blue Labour
:38:23. > :38:29.thing at all? No that's the point. He's going right back to the
:38:29. > :38:33.beginning, the 1890s, there were some valuable things, the Co-op
:38:33. > :38:38.movement, very strong, there was a lot of really positive things in
:38:38. > :38:42.1945. I think most people in Britain have family stories that
:38:42. > :38:47.reinforce that. What was wrong with 1945? There were great things about
:38:47. > :38:51.1945, I haven't said another thing. The problem was in the
:38:51. > :38:57.nationalisation model, the workers were completely subordinate, no
:38:57. > :39:02.role for trade unions or workers in nationalised industries, very
:39:02. > :39:06.administrative. The Government that created the NHS, that was mistake?
:39:06. > :39:10.That was the wonderful thing in medicine. I'm saying by moving
:39:10. > :39:14.exclusively to the state as the provider, very central things about
:39:14. > :39:19.responsibility, about the movement and particularly about the role of
:39:19. > :39:25.workers and work in the economy, were neglected, we just need to
:39:25. > :39:34.reenstate that. You also suggest it is sort of anti-women? It is quite
:39:34. > :39:39.anti-women. There are essays in the policies of paradox that blame the
:39:39. > :39:45.breakdown of social order on women. You also suggest it is jingositic?
:39:45. > :39:50.It is. There is a sentence that says, not Maurice but another
:39:50. > :39:54.author, that says the social disorder is caused by the loss of
:39:54. > :39:59.men's entitlement. As if white men were entitled to the fruits of
:39:59. > :40:03.black people in the colonies, and the exploitation that went on in
:40:03. > :40:06.the colonies, it is an extraordinary document? This is a
:40:06. > :40:12.little ungenerous. Obviously there is a variety of voices in the book.
:40:12. > :40:15.I think that the idea that this is anti-women is just wrong, straight
:40:15. > :40:20.forwardly. You will I'm sure agree it is sometimes hard to work out
:40:20. > :40:24.precisely what it is, this interview you gave to this Italian
:40:24. > :40:28.magazine? Which I wrote in Italian, by the way. That explains something,
:40:28. > :40:34.there is a sense of bravery and tragedy in our position, that is
:40:34. > :40:41.one meaning of the word "blue" that links Myles Davies with Picasso,
:40:41. > :40:46.what is this about? Many meanings to the word "blue", one with the
:40:46. > :40:50.blue, the others is Myles Davies kind of blue, it is to get away
:40:50. > :40:55.from this optimisim that things can only get better, all you do is vote
:40:55. > :40:59.Labour and the world gets a better place, people have to take
:40:59. > :41:04.responsibility, there is struggles ahead and defeat, we have to be
:41:04. > :41:07.durable in the good, and transform to get the Labour Government we
:41:07. > :41:13.want. Wouldn't it be better to go into the next election saying
:41:13. > :41:16.things will only get worst? That is the dualistic things that the media
:41:16. > :41:21.thrives on, things can get worse and better and a lot depends on us.
:41:21. > :41:24.I would say things have got better with Labour Governments, there is
:41:24. > :41:28.criticism of the nationalisation, my mother-in-law came from a mining
:41:28. > :41:31.village, during her childhood she would frequently go to the pit when
:41:31. > :41:36.there was an accident, how many people were being killed in the
:41:36. > :41:38.pits, horrible things happened, once you got nationalisation, you
:41:39. > :41:43.got massive improvements in health and safety standard, massive
:41:43. > :41:47.improvements in people's standards of living. In my own grandmother's
:41:47. > :41:50.life, between the wars she collected subs for voluntary
:41:50. > :41:56.ambulance scheme, great for community building, but actually
:41:56. > :41:58.people preferred to dial 999. you look at the German social
:41:59. > :42:05.market that didn't go to nationalisation but determination,
:42:05. > :42:10.a representation of workers on the board, a strong apprenticeship and
:42:10. > :42:15.workers in the management firms, they had a far more durable model,
:42:15. > :42:19.far less inequality and a high modern economy. I'm talking about
:42:19. > :42:23.the sovereignty of those who did PPE in Oxford who governed the
:42:23. > :42:27.Treasury and pulled the right lever, we have to have democratic
:42:27. > :42:31.engagement in the economy. We will leave aside the reference to Ed
:42:32. > :42:39.Miliband. The new Labour world, would the state be smaller? In the
:42:39. > :42:42.Blue Labour, it wouldn't be smaller, but it would be imbeded in a set of
:42:42. > :42:46.relationships. I'm arguing that there should be a split in schools.
:42:46. > :42:50.There should be a split between parents, teachers and state in the
:42:50. > :42:55.governance of the school, that should characterise the economy.
:42:55. > :43:00.You have an anxiety about immigration? What b what is said. I
:43:00. > :43:06.have an anxiety that the white working class, some how, is
:43:06. > :43:10.privileged, in maur ris's picture of British history, that seems to
:43:10. > :43:15.me to actually misunderstand British history, it is about empire,
:43:15. > :43:19.we are a multicultural country because we had a big empire. One of
:43:19. > :43:22.the successful things we have done, more than other European countries,
:43:22. > :43:27.is build those multicultural communities so we have higher
:43:27. > :43:30.levels of tolerance in our country. I would argue the great
:43:30. > :43:34.beneficiaries of imperialism are the City of London, we are the
:43:34. > :43:37.owner and the Labour Government was a massive effort to get recognition
:43:37. > :43:41.for local workers who were dispossessed through the enclosure
:43:41. > :43:45.movement and had to fight to achieve recognition within the
:43:45. > :43:50.political system, the right to vote, democratic entitlements. This idea
:43:50. > :43:53.there is a privilege for that is not so. We have lived through an
:43:53. > :43:58.unprecedented period of immigration. I work with London citizens on
:43:58. > :44:02.living wage where I saw just how the race to the bottom look effect.
:44:02. > :44:06.There was competition between local workers and new workers and it is
:44:06. > :44:10.necessary to reengage with the common good, with the politics of
:44:10. > :44:16.the common good, doing what the Labour movement always did, bring
:44:16. > :44:20.together immigrants and locals, working-class and middle-class and
:44:20. > :44:24.engage in a general politics that can make the country better. What
:44:24. > :44:30.is your anxiety if Blue Labour continues to gain ground in the
:44:30. > :44:35.leadership of the party? I have two anxieties. One is that it ignores
:44:35. > :44:40.the internationalisation agenda, and the world, so it is all very
:44:40. > :44:43.well to have the things that he was talking about, Co-ops and
:44:43. > :44:46.industrial democracy, I'm in favour of those things, we have to attract
:44:46. > :44:51.foreign investment from abroad, you have to have Government taking a
:44:51. > :44:57.role on that. Back to the issue of the welfare state, it may be
:44:57. > :45:01.inefficient, it may be that we need to address the bureaucracy, but it
:45:01. > :45:11.gives people security and equal opportunity.
:45:11. > :45:11.
:45:11. > :46:12.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 61 seconds
:46:12. > :46:17.Pretty showery for the rest of the week. Positively wet across some
:46:17. > :46:20.week. Positively wet across some northern parts of the UK. Parts of
:46:20. > :46:25.Scotland will have persistent rain, keeping things cool. Further south,
:46:25. > :46:30.there will be some sunshine, pretty heavy and possibly thundery showers
:46:30. > :46:34.across parts of northern England by the afternoon. Wimbledon will
:46:34. > :46:39.probably get away with it, with largely dry day with sunshine. One
:46:39. > :46:44.or two showers blowing in across parts of South-West England and
:46:44. > :46:50.Wales. The showers shouldn't last for too long because of the breeze.
:46:50. > :46:59.Lengthy dry and bright spells inbetween. Not too warm, 14-15. Not
:46:59. > :47:06.much warmer for Northern Ireland. Dryer spells but further heavy
:47:06. > :47:10.downpours possible. Slow-moving too. No prospect for things drying out
:47:10. > :47:13.dramatically in the next few days. Wednesday looks every bit as
:47:13. > :47:17.showery across the UK. Further south there will be more showers
:47:17. > :47:20.than there were on Tuesday, rather more chance of some interruptions
:47:20. > :47:23.at Wimbledon, by the middle of the week. This is the picture on
:47:23. > :47:27.Wednesday. Starting off bright across south eastern areas, clumps