:00:08. > :00:12.Tonight we report from inside Syria, the Government there has banned
:00:12. > :00:16.independent foreign reporting. So Sue Lloyd Roberts has been there
:00:16. > :00:19.undercover. On the road to Damascus, she meets
:00:19. > :00:23.the ordinary Syrians whose stories have not been heard before.
:00:24. > :00:27.TRANSLATION: They gave us the orders to fire heavily at unarmed
:00:27. > :00:31.people, we were surprised to be told to shoot randomly, no
:00:31. > :00:34.distinction between women, children, armed or unarmed men, many, many
:00:34. > :00:39.were killed. What lies behind the demonstrations which the Government
:00:39. > :00:42.says are the work merely of saboteur, and how has the regime
:00:42. > :00:45.reacted? TRANSLATION: After they tortured me, they put me in
:00:45. > :00:50.solitary, it was so small, I was made to stand, I couldn't sit down
:00:50. > :00:54.of the they beat me with electric batons.
:00:54. > :01:00.Also tonight, as the Greek parliament faces a critical vote in
:01:00. > :01:05.the next few minutes and the mob outside watches and waits, will
:01:05. > :01:09.Helenic shivers lead to a second global crash. The issue is simple,
:01:09. > :01:19.will tax-payers end up bailing out the bankers yet again?
:01:19. > :01:20.
:01:20. > :01:23.We're joined by guests who know to beware of Greeks bearing gilts. Is
:01:23. > :01:26.the Justice Secretary now the prisoner of Downing Street.
:01:26. > :01:31.Ever wondered why sometimes Google seems to deliver exactly what you
:01:32. > :01:41.wanted to hear? Instead of cyberspace widening our horizon, is
:01:42. > :01:44.
:01:44. > :01:48.it trapping us in our own little bubbles.
:01:48. > :01:52.State television in Syria broadcast news of the uprising in the country
:01:52. > :01:56.today. Or else it broadcast pictures that it said proved
:01:56. > :02:00.foreign troublemakers were misrepresenting the Syrian people's
:02:00. > :02:05.fanatical devotion to President Assad. According to activist, his
:02:05. > :02:08.troops opened fire on demonstrators in various cities, killing perhaps
:02:08. > :02:12.seven people, including another 13- year-old boy. We know none of this
:02:12. > :02:17.for certain, of course, because the regime refuses to allow foreign
:02:17. > :02:27.journalists free access. So Sue Lloyd Roberts has been in Damascus
:02:27. > :02:30.
:02:31. > :02:36.on news Newsnight's behalf, It was surprisingly easy to get
:02:36. > :02:40.into the country. Posing as a tourist, with a small camera. But
:02:40. > :02:47.once here in Damascus, the difficulties began. If I booked
:02:47. > :02:52.into an hotel, I was told I would be followed. My contacts took me to
:02:52. > :02:56.an empty flat in a suburb of the city. To accommodate a journalist
:02:56. > :03:03.at home would put them in jail, they explained. I had to lock the
:03:03. > :03:06.doors and keep the blinds drawn. I have to sit here in hiding for
:03:06. > :03:10.hours at a time, waiting to get a message from one of the activists
:03:10. > :03:14.I'm working with here, to tell me when it is safe enough to go into
:03:14. > :03:18.Damascus to meet with them. It is a frustrating way to report on the
:03:18. > :03:22.uprising here in Syria, but not as difficult as it is for those who
:03:22. > :03:27.are trying to bring about change in this country.
:03:27. > :03:31.I soon found I wasn't alone in my predicament, nearly everyone I met
:03:31. > :03:35.was on the run or in hiding, from Syria's Mukhabarat, the secret
:03:35. > :03:44.police. Political activists are now
:03:45. > :03:48.scattered around the city, in borrowed rooms and flats. I found
:03:48. > :03:54.this 26-year-old journalists hide anything a friend's apartment, he
:03:54. > :03:59.had just written his will. TRANSLATION: Prison was terrifying,
:03:59. > :04:04.they tortured me, they put me in solitary confinement, they beat me
:04:04. > :04:09.with electric baton, they spat at me said my career was over.
:04:09. > :04:15.His crime was to cast doubt on the President's promise of reform. What
:04:15. > :04:18.does he think real reform is? TRANSLATION: The people of Syria
:04:19. > :04:22.dream of living in a country that is free, where there was a rule of
:04:22. > :04:28.law without a dictatorship, and where our lives are not ruled by
:04:28. > :04:32.the security forces. Aliya, the mother of a young
:04:32. > :04:37.daughter, had to go into hiding after leading a group of women
:04:37. > :04:40.demonstrators. Why did she do it? TRANSLATION: I don't want my
:04:40. > :04:44.daughter to grow up like I did, having always to say something in
:04:44. > :04:54.one place, and something else in another. I want her to be free. I
:04:54. > :05:04.want her to say what she wants, where she wants, when she wants. My
:05:04. > :05:04.
:05:04. > :05:07.daughter watches the TV, and she hears us chanting, "people want the
:05:07. > :05:11.downfall of the regime". In her innocence she repeated this in
:05:11. > :05:20.school, and the teacher got really angry, and shouted at her, and told
:05:20. > :05:24.her she had to praise the President. Life in Syria is dominated by the
:05:24. > :05:28.weekly protests after Friday prayers. Who will go? Who will risk
:05:29. > :05:34.being killed by army snipers. Will they survive to return home
:05:34. > :05:39.afterwards. It's Thursday evening, the eve of what's become protest
:05:39. > :05:45.day here in Syria, and people are dashing home before the roadblocks
:05:45. > :05:51.are set up between the suburbs of Damascus and the city itself. The
:05:51. > :05:56.last thing authorities want is for people to converge on the city,
:05:56. > :06:00.recreating the Damascus equivalent of Cairo's Tahrir Square. Even here
:06:00. > :06:03.in the prosperous middle-class suburb, you can tell how many
:06:03. > :06:08.security guards patrol the streets, by the number of times I'm told to
:06:08. > :06:13.hide my camera. People here tell you a mass demonstration in
:06:13. > :06:16.Damascus would not be like Egypt, it would be massacre. But for
:06:16. > :06:23.opposition leader, Riad Seif, the weekly protests are the highlight
:06:23. > :06:27.of his week. I am 65 years old now, and I have cancer, but I enjoy so
:06:27. > :06:35.much going to demonstrate every Friday with these youth, which I
:06:35. > :06:39.see in them the future of Syria. Once I was caught and I was beaten
:06:39. > :06:43.very, very hard. When Bashar al-Assad first came to
:06:43. > :06:48.power ten years ago, he asked opposition leaders, like Seif, to
:06:48. > :06:55.help him introduce reform. When Seif suggested a genuine democracy
:06:55. > :07:00.he was imprisoned. Syria belongs to the Syrians, it
:07:00. > :07:04.doesn't belong to the Al-Assad family. This, let's say, Al-Assad
:07:04. > :07:09.family forever, should have been stopped, it is enough.
:07:09. > :07:12.While I was in Damascus, there were pro-regime demonstration, and they
:07:12. > :07:18.are happening with increasing regularity. Attended by thousands
:07:18. > :07:25.of ordinary people, and not just those from the ruling Shia minority.
:07:25. > :07:31.I went back to the hideout, the journalist, and asked him who the
:07:31. > :07:35.President's supporters are? TRANSLATION: Like every country
:07:35. > :07:39.there are people who benefit from the regime. There are two million
:07:39. > :07:44.security personnel in Syria, if they alone came out, that would be
:07:45. > :07:49.the biggest pro-regime rally ever. Yesterday President Assad repeated
:07:50. > :07:54.that his country was bedevilled by saboteurs. The regime alternate in
:07:54. > :07:57.accusing the protestors of being inspired by Israel, and at other
:07:57. > :08:03.times, they are accused of being part of an Islamic fundamentalist
:08:03. > :08:09.plot. Is there any truth in that? TRANSLATION: When I went out to
:08:09. > :08:14.protest, I did not hear any purely Islamic chants. Everyone was
:08:14. > :08:18.chanting, "Allah, Syria, freedom", that is what we want. Everyone was
:08:18. > :08:25.chanting for freedom. There are Syrian who is are quite religious,
:08:25. > :08:30.but they do not impose religious beliefs on you.
:08:30. > :08:34.So far the biggest demonstrations have taken place outside the
:08:34. > :08:41.capital city. In cities like Homs and ham matter, where thousands
:08:41. > :08:45.have attended rallies, despite the risks. Army brutality has been
:08:45. > :08:49.bravely documented by those wielding the weapon of this
:08:49. > :08:54.revolution, the mobile phone. The beatings and the killings have
:08:54. > :08:58.been indiscriminate. Methed out to adults and children
:08:58. > :09:04.alike. - meted out to adults and churn
:09:04. > :09:09.alike. The most painful image of which is the abduction, torture and
:09:09. > :09:13.murder of a 13-year-old. Occasionally it has become too much
:09:13. > :09:19.for soldiers. This man could no longer take orders from his
:09:19. > :09:22.commanding officer and fled to neighbouring Lebanon. All Syrians
:09:22. > :09:25.taking refuge here asked not to be identified, they hope to return one
:09:25. > :09:29.day. TRANSLATION: They gave us the
:09:29. > :09:34.orders to fire heavily at unwarmed people. We were surprised to be
:09:34. > :09:40.told to shoot randomly, no distinction between women, children,
:09:40. > :09:43.armed and unarmed men. Many, many were killed, all unarmed civilians.
:09:43. > :09:46.Our commanding officers said there is so much ammunition, keep
:09:46. > :09:50.shooting, there is so much no-one will ask where it went. I would
:09:50. > :09:54.fire in the air or at empty buildings, because I knew if they
:09:54. > :09:58.found out I wasn't firing at people, they would detain me in a secret
:09:58. > :10:01.location or kill me. The refugees in eastern Lebanon can see the
:10:01. > :10:09.Syrian troops across the border, it was the threat that these men now
:10:09. > :10:13.pose to the women of Syria, which forced him to leave the country.
:10:13. > :10:20.TRANSLATION: I left my home to protect my honour. The men will
:10:20. > :10:24.defend the land, but I have to defend my honour. When we talk to
:10:24. > :10:29.our relatives in neighbouring town, they tell us horrifying stories,
:10:29. > :10:33.they told us that so many women were raped, those who can't escape
:10:33. > :10:43.are trapped. The soldiers don't fear God.
:10:43. > :10:44.
:10:44. > :10:48.In Syria, the violence continues. Latest pictures from the city of
:10:48. > :10:55.Homs, show soldiers in an armoured personnel carrier, firing on
:10:55. > :11:01.apparently unarmed demonstrators. Activists say there were seven
:11:01. > :11:05.deaths in all. Three months on and hundreds dead, who is winning here?
:11:05. > :11:11.TRANSLATION: The people are winning every day. Every day the regime
:11:11. > :11:18.loses another city. TRANSLATION: We're paying a very high pri, but
:11:18. > :11:22.we are winning. - Price, but we are winning. My main wish is seeing
:11:22. > :11:28.Syria free before I die. I was struggling for years for that. I'm
:11:28. > :11:34.sure it will not be so long that I'm very optimistic I will see it.
:11:34. > :11:38.You don't see groups of people in Syria, because if more than ten or
:11:39. > :11:43.twelve gather, they are likely to be arrested.
:11:44. > :11:47.In August it will be Ramadan, when thousands will come together to
:11:47. > :11:54.attend daily prayer. This, people here tell you, is when the real
:11:54. > :11:58.revolution will begin. The Foreign Office minister, John
:11:58. > :12:02.Birt, is in our Westminster - Alistair Burt, is in our
:12:02. > :12:07.Westminster studio. We are already taking military action in Libya to
:12:07. > :12:10.protect civilians, is there any danger of doing something similar
:12:10. > :12:13.in Syria? I don't think so, at the moment it is difficult to get the
:12:13. > :12:17.UN Security Council to issue a resolution on condemnation on what
:12:17. > :12:20.is happening. We are working with France, with Germany, with Portugal,
:12:20. > :12:24.to put forward a resolution to condemn the action. But the truth
:12:24. > :12:28.is, unlike Libya, there is not the same international consensus. The
:12:28. > :12:32.Arab League is more conflicted in its response, the Russians and the
:12:32. > :12:37.Chinese have already said they would veto. Unfortunately we cannot
:12:37. > :12:39.get the sort of condemnation we need for what you have seen. Which
:12:40. > :12:45.gives the lie to what President Assad has said about what he claims
:12:46. > :12:50.is happening in Syria. Effectively our foreign policy is made in
:12:50. > :12:53.Moscow or various capitals signed up to the Arab League? That is a
:12:53. > :12:57.misinterpretation, you know that full well. We are pushing as hard
:12:57. > :13:01.as we can through the EU for the various sanctions. Why are we
:13:01. > :13:06.failing so conspicuously? We are not failing. We haven't done
:13:06. > :13:11.anything yet? We can't on our own get a UN resolution through
:13:11. > :13:14.countries who don't want it. Demonstrablely we can't do it
:13:15. > :13:17.through the French? The French support what we do, a range of
:13:17. > :13:22.countries support a UN resolution, some things are not within our
:13:22. > :13:25.control. We are pressing as hard as we can at the UN. I don't think
:13:25. > :13:29.anyone will watch the report that you have seen and say some how this
:13:29. > :13:34.is all the UK's fault, that is willful misinterpretation of what
:13:34. > :13:38.we have seen. No-one is suggesting that. Let me ask a simple question,
:13:38. > :13:45.should President Assad go? should either reform or get out of
:13:45. > :13:49.the way. Whren you judge that he is genuine - when will you judge he's
:13:49. > :13:52.genuine about reforming, yesterday he said he would reform? The speech
:13:52. > :13:56.yesterday is disappointing. There is no sense at the moment he is
:13:56. > :14:00.about reform. What he needed to do yesterday was release the political
:14:00. > :14:03.prisoners, the access to the country to foreign media, to
:14:03. > :14:06.humanitarian relief. How many chances are you going to give this
:14:06. > :14:09.man before saying you have to go? don't think we're in the position
:14:10. > :14:13.of giving chances. We have already taken action, targeted sanctions
:14:13. > :14:16.against him and other members of the regime. We are press to go get
:14:16. > :14:19.more sanctions at European Council this week, we are working with
:14:19. > :14:24.others to do things at the United Nations. This is not something we
:14:24. > :14:26.have entirely within our own gift. We are doing everything we can.
:14:26. > :14:31.me ask you specifically about something happening on the streets
:14:31. > :14:35.of this capital city right now. We have been approached by various
:14:35. > :14:39.members of Syrian society, who are in London, who have taken part in
:14:39. > :14:42.protests against the Al-Assad regime, who have found that the
:14:42. > :14:46.Syrian embassy have been sending people to take their photographs
:14:46. > :14:49.and those photographs have then been shown to their families in
:14:49. > :14:53.Syria, with a clear intent of intimidating them. Will you call
:14:53. > :14:56.the ambassador in and tell him to stop doing it? This is quite wrong.
:14:56. > :15:00.We have taken action in the past against diplomats who threatened
:15:00. > :15:03.people in this country, and we would do so again. I have heard of
:15:03. > :15:06.these allegations during the course of this evening, we will be
:15:06. > :15:09.investigating, they must be investigated by the police. If we
:15:09. > :15:12.had evidence that people were being intimidated in this country by
:15:12. > :15:16.diplomats working for another country, we have taken action
:15:16. > :15:21.before and we will do so again. Will you call the ambassador in and
:15:21. > :15:24.tell him so? We have regular ambassador to pass various messages
:15:24. > :15:27.about what is happening in Syria. Once we have had an opportunity to
:15:27. > :15:31.investigate these allegations, he might well be coming in again.
:15:31. > :15:34.Thank you. Now the Greek Government is still
:15:34. > :15:36.waiting for the result was a crucial confidence vote in
:15:36. > :15:42.parliament which is taking place about now. Even if the vote pass,
:15:42. > :15:45.that won't mean an end to the crisis. - passes that won't mean an
:15:45. > :15:49.end to the crisis. They have to get through public spending cuts, tax
:15:49. > :15:52.hikes and privatisations, with plenty of Greeks saying they should
:15:52. > :15:55.refuse and refault on their debt. The European Union is desperately
:15:55. > :15:58.trying to find out how much damage that would do to banks in the rest
:15:58. > :16:03.of the continent. With some people saying it could spark another
:16:03. > :16:08.crisis in capitalism. Let's figure out how the dominos could go down
:16:08. > :16:11.with Paul Mason now. The Greeks defaulting on the debt? We are
:16:11. > :16:14.hoping by the time we have finished the programme they will have a
:16:14. > :16:18.Government. Which they didn't have over the weekend, that would put
:16:18. > :16:21.them one step ahead of Belgium. It is not the Government they need. It
:16:21. > :16:28.is an austerity plan that the European Union agrees with enough
:16:28. > :16:31.to give them money. Now they are trying to pass the austerity plan
:16:31. > :16:35.through parliament next Tuesday. Since the parliament will be at
:16:35. > :16:39.that point thronged with tens of thousands of demonstrators, many of
:16:39. > :16:44.them will be intent on violence, it is highly likely that will be a
:16:44. > :16:47.much tighter vote. If they don't pass the austerity plan the
:16:47. > :16:52.European Union demands, and even if they pass it and don't execute it,
:16:52. > :16:55.this is what raises the issue of default.
:16:56. > :17:00.Tonight's vote is not the main event. The main event comes when
:17:00. > :17:07.the Greek parliament has to vote on the austerity package already
:17:07. > :17:13.agreed with the EU. That slashs 278 billion euro office Greece's budget
:17:13. > :17:18.over four years. The public sector will shrink from 53% of GDP to 44%
:17:18. > :17:23.n just six years, it still leaves the country with debts 150% of its
:17:23. > :17:28.national output. Greek ministers are determined to
:17:28. > :17:32.push it through. The unions and protestors determined to oppose it,
:17:32. > :17:37.a centre right opposition determined to change it. And
:17:37. > :17:42.default, quite simply, is what happens if the protestors win.
:17:42. > :17:47.with this second Greek bailout, Greece will run out of money in a
:17:47. > :17:51.few year's time. The economy simply isn't growing, they will not have
:17:51. > :17:55.enough cash to fund themselves post 2014, meaning they will default any
:17:55. > :17:58.way, it is better to do it now in an orderly fashion. In Brussels,
:17:58. > :18:05.the battle is between those who insist that the banks should lose
:18:05. > :18:10.money if Greece defaults and those, like this man, from the ECB who say
:18:10. > :18:14.this is impossible. For now the ECB is winning, but critics believe the
:18:14. > :18:17.authorities have lost the plot. They are very clever people, they
:18:17. > :18:21.are being faced with an almost intractable problem, I don't think
:18:21. > :18:25.there is an easy solution to this. Every possible solution has massive
:18:25. > :18:29.drawbacks and costs. A default, controlled or chaotic, imposes
:18:29. > :18:34.losses on someone, those asking whether we now face a second Lehman
:18:34. > :18:39.Brothers, may be asking the wrong question. I would question the use
:18:39. > :18:44.of the word "second", I would argue it is the same. All we managed to
:18:44. > :18:47.do from Lehman Brothers is move it from one balance sheet, being
:18:47. > :18:51.unrecognised loss, from one balance sheet to other, we have ended up on
:18:51. > :18:57.the largest balance sheet available, the tax-payers' balance sheet,
:18:57. > :19:00.there is nowhere to go. Is the British taxpayer going to get
:19:00. > :19:04.zapped too? Somebody has to pay in a default. George Osborne and David
:19:04. > :19:08.Cameron have said they will not bail out Greece again and not take
:19:08. > :19:12.part in that. Large parts of the macro-economics profession and
:19:12. > :19:19.journalism have spent the last 72 hours pouring over the root maps
:19:19. > :19:22.between a busted bond in the Greek Treasury and a lost job on Tyneside.
:19:22. > :19:28.Or elsewhere in Europe, and these roots exist. It is entirely
:19:28. > :19:33.possible to see now, not just one root from crisis in Greece to
:19:33. > :19:37.megacrisis in Europe, and several, and some of them do involve the
:19:38. > :19:41.European taxpayer as a whole having to put its hand in its pocket.
:19:41. > :19:45.Almost half of all Greek debt is held by Greek banks and pension
:19:45. > :19:52.fund, they would go bust if Greece defaults, why should we care?
:19:52. > :19:56.Because of what would happen next? You get the biggest banks' exposure
:19:56. > :20:00.to Greece are in Germany, France and the UK. We have already seen
:20:00. > :20:04.reports that banks are becoming increasingly wary of lend to go one
:20:04. > :20:08.another, in case the exposure goes wrong, in turn it will hurt
:20:08. > :20:12.business confidence and consumer confidence, it leads to an
:20:12. > :20:16.unpleasant downward spiral and back into recession maybe. The contagion
:20:16. > :20:20.doesn't end there, the European Central Bank, the body that runs
:20:20. > :20:24.the eurozone, has lent Greece so much money, that its solvency too
:20:24. > :20:28.could be in doubt. The real problem comes with the derivatives market,
:20:28. > :20:34.in London and New York, banks have insured themselves against a
:20:34. > :20:38.default, through called CDS, who pays out? A default is inevitable
:20:38. > :20:41.in the sense that Greece cannot pay off its debt. Nor can it achieve
:20:41. > :20:45.the kind of restructuring it has been asked to do in the time frame
:20:45. > :20:49.it is asked to do to pay off the debt. Couldn't sequences of that
:20:49. > :20:53.debt will reverberate far beyond Greece and hit London and New York,
:20:53. > :20:57.not just French and German banks who lent to the Greek, but also the
:20:57. > :21:01.markets in London and New York, which specialise in derivatives and
:21:01. > :21:05.CDS contracts that insured against the default. The nightmare scenario
:21:05. > :21:10.is a second version of Lehman Brothers, Greece draws Portugal and
:21:10. > :21:14.Ireland into the crisis, raising the cost of borrowing for all Euro-
:21:14. > :21:18.countries, then banks refuse to lend to each other, this is a
:21:18. > :21:22.second credit crunch, that stifles the world economy.
:21:22. > :21:25.The real risk for us in Britain is the Greek crisis, in this the end,
:21:25. > :21:29.cause as significant banking and economic crisis across the whole of
:21:29. > :21:33.Europe. And that's going to cause big problems for us, around about
:21:33. > :21:36.50% of our exports go to the eurozone. If the eurozone is in
:21:36. > :21:40.trouble, Britain is in trouble. Just before we explore that
:21:40. > :21:45.question of what happens to the eurozone, they are still voting in
:21:45. > :21:49.the Greek parliament, but the Government has survived. Let's go
:21:49. > :21:53.back to what happened to the euro, the euro is bust by this, or the
:21:53. > :21:58.Greeks can't stay in the euro, what happens then? We have often
:21:58. > :22:02.wondered what it might look like, a terminal crisis of the eurozone. I
:22:02. > :22:05.think for several months, again, on programmes like this, in the
:22:05. > :22:11.broadsheet press, we have been looking at arguments between the
:22:11. > :22:14.European Central Bank and this politician, or that actor in some
:22:14. > :22:20.bureaucratic hole in Brussels. But the really stunning thing that has
:22:20. > :22:24.happened, in the last month, is the entry of the Greek people into the
:22:24. > :22:32.debate. The whole reason we are here now is because Papandreou's
:22:32. > :22:36.Government almost collapsed last Wednesday, when mayhem broke out in
:22:36. > :22:39.central Athens. This wild card of mass action, mass discontent, and a
:22:39. > :22:43.mass switch-off from the European project that we are seeing also in
:22:43. > :22:47.southern Europe, also in parts of northern Europe. This empty that
:22:47. > :22:51.makes the whole outcome, I think, much hard Tory predict than if you
:22:51. > :22:58.were simply trying to - harder to predict than if you were trying to
:22:58. > :23:05.predict it through pure economics. The eurozone is a single interest
:23:05. > :23:12.rate and currency but 16 different tax and spend rules. The aim at
:23:12. > :23:17.harmonising the policies were systematically rejected.
:23:17. > :23:25.YuriGagarino50 Euro-can't sur rife, without - euro can't survive,
:23:25. > :23:31.unless it has measures to make it up to a grown-up kurn circumstance
:23:31. > :23:35.or pushing out countries that cannot meet the criteria. Some see
:23:35. > :23:40.a redrawn map of Europe, with the north separate from the south, as
:23:40. > :23:46.the euro's only chance. I think Germany should leave. Taking with
:23:46. > :23:51.her other like-minded countries, Austria, Luxembourg and Finland,
:23:52. > :23:56.and leaving the euro as the currency of the weaker peripheral
:23:56. > :23:59.countries. But electorates in northern Europe are rejecting this,
:23:59. > :24:03.right-wing parties that oppose the euro on principle are gaining
:24:03. > :24:09.ground. The old centralist politicians are looking to lose the
:24:09. > :24:12.argument. Tax-payers in northern Europe feel they underwrite
:24:12. > :24:17.Governments in foreign countries, and citizens in poorer regions and
:24:17. > :24:20.countries feel they are being pushed into these kind of austerity
:24:20. > :24:24.measures by bureaucrats, officials and politicians they can't vote out
:24:24. > :24:28.of office, something has to give. But the Greek people have now
:24:28. > :24:33.forced their way into the argument. They are rejecting austerity in
:24:33. > :24:37.large numbers. This footage, they height of last week's rioting,
:24:37. > :24:42.shows a major European city, temporarily absent of the rule of
:24:42. > :24:47.law. That is what has focused minds, what the Greek people do remains
:24:47. > :24:53.the wild card that could yet decide the euro's fate. To get an idea of
:24:53. > :24:59.what might happen if Greece does default, I'm joined by a Greek
:24:59. > :25:04.economist, Costas Lapavitsas, and the German chief economist of
:25:04. > :25:07.Berenberg Bank, and the assistant editor of the Financial Times. I
:25:07. > :25:11.better remind anyone that is watching that the Greek Government
:25:11. > :25:14.has survived the confidence vote. What is your bet, will they
:25:14. > :25:18.default? People in America are certainly watching this with great
:25:18. > :25:23.concern. Both in Washington and New York, in the policy-making circles,
:25:23. > :25:30.there is real concern. I think the issue is right now Europe is at a
:25:30. > :25:35.crossroads, French bankers were spoken to in New York, and it was
:25:35. > :25:40.said now is the time Europe needs it look at corporate governance,
:25:40. > :25:43.will it pull together and create quasi-federal structures or fall
:25:43. > :25:49.apart. Right now we don't know. That is why so many people are so
:25:49. > :25:51.nervous. Do you think the Greek also default? As long as the Greeks
:25:51. > :25:56.swallow the bitter medicine of austerity, Europe would see the
:25:56. > :25:59.Greeks paid their bills. There is no sign they have any appetite to
:25:59. > :26:02.swallow the medicine? They may not have the appetite, we have just had
:26:02. > :26:06.the first of the three crucial votes in the Greek parliament,
:26:06. > :26:10.apparently giving a majority for that programme. So far we have to
:26:10. > :26:15.keep our fingers crossed, but we are still on track. What is your
:26:15. > :26:19.feeling, as a patriotic Greek? would not comment as a patriotic
:26:20. > :26:23.Greek, but as an economist I can say that the Greeks have swallowed
:26:23. > :26:28.plenty of medicine since May 2010, and the result has been utter
:26:28. > :26:31.failure. They know that this has been the case. So they are most
:26:31. > :26:35.reluctant to swallow more medicine which they have worked out will
:26:35. > :26:39.lead nowhere. Let as say for the sake of argument, the Greeks do
:26:39. > :26:45.then decide that's it, it is game over, they are not going to play
:26:45. > :26:49.along with this any more, what happens then? I think default will
:26:49. > :26:53.happen then. What are the consequences of default?
:26:53. > :26:59.consequences of default would be serious, serious for Greece and for
:26:59. > :27:03.Europe. But I stress, Greece has no choice, the choice is gone, there
:27:03. > :27:09.is no choice at all. If it goes for default, if through popular unrest
:27:09. > :27:12.and the groundswell of anger it goes for default, it will have to
:27:12. > :27:16.take drastic action to restructure the economy, put different footing
:27:16. > :27:21.and create jobs and growth and prosperity for its people. What do
:27:21. > :27:24.you think would be the consequences of a Greek decision to default?
:27:24. > :27:28.think probably it would cast the eurozone banking system into a lot
:27:28. > :27:33.more uncertainty, because, of course, you do have a chunk of this
:27:33. > :27:37.debt held been the eurozone banking system. It would tip the financial
:27:37. > :27:41.markets into a certain degree of turmoil as well. As you heard from
:27:41. > :27:46.the earlier segment, there are a number of derivative contracts tied
:27:46. > :27:50.to Greek bond, whose value would be uncertain if there is a default.
:27:51. > :27:54.You have a very entwined banking system, it is the unforeseen
:27:54. > :27:59.consequences, as with the Lehman Brothers episode, really worrying
:27:59. > :28:03.policy makers right now. Could it lead to something as serious as the
:28:03. > :28:08.banking crisis which followed the collapse of Lehman Brothers?
:28:08. > :28:12.good news is this time round, unlike in the Lehman Brothers case,
:28:12. > :28:17.policy makers, investors and bankers have had several months to
:28:17. > :28:21.think about the "what if" scenarios. There are plenty of people inside
:28:21. > :28:25.central banks and banks who have gone through the worse case
:28:25. > :28:28.scenario, and they are trying to put measures in place to offset any
:28:28. > :28:31.big risks. However, as we have learned so clearly in the last
:28:31. > :28:40.couple of years, it is the unforeseen consequences that tend
:28:40. > :28:45.to trip people up. Right now there are very high unfor seen
:28:45. > :28:49.consequences. In Greece these big damables are going hand in hand
:28:49. > :28:54.with the future of the US debt situation as well. It is the
:28:54. > :28:58.uncertainties that make it so risky. Will northern European tax-payers
:28:58. > :29:02.bail out southern European economies? Northern European tax-
:29:02. > :29:06.payers are putting significant amounts of money at risk, so far
:29:06. > :29:10.with doing that they have managed to contain the risks. We should not
:29:10. > :29:16.forget that much of continental Europe is having its best economic
:29:16. > :29:20.time in 20 years. So far the European approach, of offering
:29:20. > :29:25.tough love to Greece and other southern European, namely, money,
:29:25. > :29:30.if you change your ways, so far it is working, it is a tough test. If
:29:30. > :29:35.Greece decides it doesn't want the tough love, because it is too tough,
:29:35. > :29:39.Europe would switch tack, it would start to contain the constage I
:29:39. > :29:45.don't know risk, prop up Spain and let Greece do what Greece decides
:29:45. > :29:49.to do. Is he being a get sanguine there? This is a political problem,
:29:49. > :29:53.it is not an economic problem. If the eurozone was a single unit, the
:29:53. > :29:57.eurozone has enough resources to solve it. The question is does the
:29:57. > :30:04.eurozone want to come together more closely as a single political unit?
:30:04. > :30:09.If you like, as someone who trained as an an throp polygamist, it is
:30:09. > :30:14.the revenge of the anthropologists and the sociolologists against the
:30:14. > :30:17.number crunchers, you can't put the numbers in and predict what is
:30:17. > :30:21.coming next, it is uncertain but very worrying.
:30:21. > :30:25.What is your worrying? It is not just the Greeks, it is the Irish
:30:25. > :30:29.and Portuguese who are bankrupt, the big one is Spain, which is not
:30:29. > :30:34.far off. And there are plenty of other northern Europeans pretty fed
:30:34. > :30:39.up with the euro too? The periphery is effectively bankrupt, it is not
:30:39. > :30:43.a problem of feckless Greeks, or Greeks who have mishandled their
:30:43. > :30:48.financial affairs. Although that is also true? Possibly, but it is to
:30:49. > :30:53.do with the eurozone itself and the structures. The fact that the whole
:30:53. > :30:59.of the periphery is basically bankrupt indicates that. Now, if
:31:00. > :31:03.Greece were to default, clearly its banks would have a major problem
:31:03. > :31:07.and would have to be put under public ownership or they would go
:31:07. > :31:12.bankrupt. It would be a major hit for the ECB, exposed to Greek bonds,
:31:12. > :31:17.and also to liquidity given to Greek banks. It will be a major
:31:17. > :31:20.blow for continental banks. It will also be a major blow for the
:31:20. > :31:24.secondary bond market. Obviously the bonds of other peripheral
:31:24. > :31:29.countries would collapse in value, because it would become clear that
:31:29. > :31:31.default is possible. Angela Merkel knows the Germans will not be at
:31:32. > :31:36.all enthusiastic about the sort of action that is required? They are
:31:36. > :31:43.not enthusiastic about it. But if you look at Germany, Germany has so
:31:43. > :31:50.far always risen to the challenge, doesn't forget, as Ian Tett was
:31:50. > :31:55.pointed out, this is politics. The post-war rationality of German is
:31:55. > :32:00.to keep Europe together. Germany will not let the euro break apart,
:32:00. > :32:03.Greece will do what it has to do, but Germany will see it, with
:32:03. > :32:06.taxpayer money if expected, that the major parts of Europe stays
:32:06. > :32:12.together. Germany has the means and will to do it.
:32:12. > :32:15.Thank you both and all very much. We absolutely must not accuse the
:32:15. > :32:20.Government of another collapse in the face of hostile opinion: the
:32:20. > :32:24.fact they have abandoned ideas about halving prison sentences for
:32:24. > :32:27.those pleading guilty, means it reflects the fact they are
:32:27. > :32:31.thoughtful of public opinion. It raises the tricky question where
:32:31. > :32:35.they will find the money they thought they were going to save.
:32:35. > :32:42.We feel constrained to commit to you the maximum term allowed for
:32:42. > :32:46.these offences, you will go to prison for five years. Mind you, it
:32:46. > :32:50.would only be two-and-a-half years if Fletcher had pleaded guilty and
:32:50. > :32:54.Ken Clarke had had his way. Today David Cameron announced new
:32:54. > :32:59.mandatory jail terms for brandishing a knife, and moves to
:32:59. > :33:03.help people defend their homes, and against squatting. But that was
:33:03. > :33:08.overshadowed by the decision to scrap Mr Clarke's controversial
:33:08. > :33:13.plans to give criminals 50% off their jail terms if they plead
:33:13. > :33:19.guilty. Saving the trouble of a long trial,
:33:19. > :33:23.rather than the quurnt third they get in such circumstances. For the
:33:23. > :33:27.most serious crimes we have concluded this certainly would not
:33:27. > :33:31.be right. The sentence served would depart far too much from the
:33:31. > :33:35.sentence handed down by the judge, this is not acceptable. We looked
:33:35. > :33:38.at whether a 50% discount could be applied to less serious crime, we
:33:38. > :33:42.reached the same conclusion. Michael Crick, from Newsnight?
:33:42. > :33:45.Several of the things you have announced tonight, Prime Minister,
:33:45. > :33:50.will add to the Ministry of Justice's cost, isn't this a huge
:33:50. > :33:54.kick in the teeth for a minister, who came along, gave you a very
:33:54. > :34:00.generous settlement, at an early stage in the spending round, now
:34:00. > :34:04.you have made him find more savings? Ken is happy with the
:34:04. > :34:10.proposals we are both publishing this morning, and he will explain
:34:11. > :34:14.to the House this afternoon, as we go forward. It is able to make the
:34:14. > :34:22.savings without cutting the sentences for the most dangerous
:34:22. > :34:27.offenders. The plans for 50% jail terms for serious offence, such as
:34:27. > :34:31.rape and murder, from effectively killed off in Whitehall a couple 6
:34:31. > :34:35.months ago. But they were still being - a couple of months ago, but
:34:35. > :34:39.they were still being considered a fortnight ago for lesser crimes.
:34:39. > :34:49.Ken Clarke had powerful support from the Treasury, who hoped to
:34:49. > :34:49.
:34:49. > :34:55.save money from the scheme. Then George Osborne, as much the
:34:55. > :34:58.political strategist as penny penching Chancellor, changed his
:34:58. > :35:03.mind, and Ken Clarke was told to drop the plans all together. The
:35:03. > :35:07.Treasury has given Ken Clarke four years to find other savings to meet
:35:07. > :35:13.the �130 million that the 50% plan was meant to save in last year's
:35:13. > :35:17.Spending Review. Though, justice officials admit that figure was far
:35:17. > :35:22.too ambitious any way. Today's climb-down also means the planned
:35:22. > :35:26.3,000 drop in jail numbers, will be abandoned too. Numbers could rise,
:35:27. > :35:31.instead. There are two big problems for Ken Clarke, one is the cost of
:35:32. > :35:35.running crowded prisons, the other is crowded prisons themselves
:35:35. > :35:39.running out-of-spaces, the specter of prisoners detained in police
:35:39. > :35:43.cells and so on. One wonders whether it maybe the Government has
:35:43. > :35:46.to turn to the back door. In other words, given that the Government
:35:46. > :35:50.has the discretion to allow offenders to go from prison on
:35:51. > :35:55.early rely might be seen in the coming months or years, a lot going
:35:55. > :35:59.out the back door, as a way of compensating for the fact that Ken
:35:59. > :36:05.Clarke has failed to get through his policy to reduce sentences by
:36:05. > :36:10.50%. As for Cameron's eye-catching moves
:36:10. > :36:14.today on knives, Tony Martin-style burglary cases and squatters, one
:36:14. > :36:21.Ministry of Justice source told me they were dreamt up, not by them,
:36:21. > :36:25.but by Downing Street, to keep the Sun and the Daily Mail happy.
:36:25. > :36:28.is a bit of headline-grabbing going on, when those clauses go in front
:36:28. > :36:32.of parliament there will be pretty detailed discussion about them. We
:36:32. > :36:36.have two processes going on here. We have some people in the
:36:36. > :36:39.Government want to go look tough, and occasionally producing sensible
:36:39. > :36:44.measures but often not, we have a whole process of trying to make
:36:44. > :36:47.sure we spend our money in ways that do stop crime rather than
:36:47. > :36:52.grabbing headlines. For Labour another Government reverse should
:36:52. > :36:55.present an open goal. I have got no problem with the Prime Minister, or
:36:55. > :36:58.members of the cabinet seeing good sense, especially after the
:36:58. > :37:04.campaign, not just for politicians but members of the public. What I
:37:04. > :37:07.think is unwise s that the 11th hour, because the media is not
:37:07. > :37:11.backing down, because you have a particular lobby group you are
:37:11. > :37:14.worried about, changing policy on the hoof without thinking through
:37:14. > :37:19.the consequences. Today's sentencing, before that health,
:37:19. > :37:26.David Cameron has endured a June of taunts of U-turn, to stave off too
:37:26. > :37:31.big political problems, long-term. As with health, though, the risk is
:37:32. > :37:36.that criminal justice becomes less coherent and more expensive.
:37:36. > :37:40.The Internet, we're repeatedly told, has democratised knowledge, if we
:37:40. > :37:43.want to we can find out almost anything. Supposing that's not
:37:43. > :37:49.quite true. Supposing we're just been told what someone believes we
:37:49. > :37:54.want to hear, or worse than that, that some vast corporation's
:37:54. > :37:58.algorithm has decided to feed us. What if some commercial Ministry of
:37:58. > :38:03.Truth was ensuring we were only told what we wanted to hear. That
:38:03. > :38:08.is the scare theory put forward by Eli Pariser, believing we all live
:38:08. > :38:12.in filter bubbles. We asked our reporter to test the theory.
:38:12. > :38:19.Looked in the mirror lately, if so you will know what the future of
:38:19. > :38:23.the internet looks like, aparting to Eli Pariser, he says we're
:38:23. > :38:26.entering into the era of personalisation, where web
:38:26. > :38:30.companies know everything about us and serving up a world that looks
:38:30. > :38:34.like home. The idea is increase league we are in our own little
:38:34. > :38:39.bubble, experiencing a personalised and limited internet, which filters
:38:39. > :38:43.out stuff that doesn't match our own likes and prejudices. Let's see
:38:43. > :38:46.what this means in practice, with a look inside my bubble. You have
:38:46. > :38:52.looked for Citroen, it is now pinpointing where you are, because
:38:52. > :38:58.it has picked up where we are searching from. It is finding local
:38:58. > :39:01.Citroen dealerships for you, that is a simple example of
:39:01. > :39:07.personalisation using geographical information.
:39:07. > :39:13.I'm a big user of Gmail, alongside it are adverts for China. My wife
:39:13. > :39:18.has just been in China, and we have been e-mailing each other using G-
:39:18. > :39:22.mail, has it picked up something there? Google can pick up a lot of
:39:22. > :39:26.stuff when you are logged into Google, it can pick up the subject
:39:26. > :39:31.matter you are e-mailing about, all sorts of things like that, then you
:39:31. > :39:35.end up with China being advertised to you. I find it a bit creepy?
:39:35. > :39:40.lot of people do. One example of personalisation,
:39:40. > :39:46.according to Persson, is that the same Google searches could provide
:39:46. > :39:51.very different results for very different people, I'm going on a
:39:51. > :39:54.journey to test the theory. Well, next door at least.
:39:55. > :40:00.OK Jilly, what we will do is get you to type in the same things that
:40:00. > :40:07.I have searched for, so we will start with banana bread.
:40:07. > :40:13.What have you got, you have got as far as I can see, just about
:40:13. > :40:23.identical results to me. You have the BBC One, two BBC recipe, can
:40:23. > :40:24.
:40:24. > :40:32.you type into this one, "is wind power economic?". Yet again you
:40:32. > :40:38.have got identical results to me. Not much evidence of
:40:38. > :40:48.personalisation there, let's go further afield to another neighbour.
:40:48. > :40:53.
:40:53. > :40:56."is wind power economic? ". Yes, yes, yes, looks like you have the
:40:56. > :41:00.same results again. That didn't work very well with general
:41:00. > :41:04.searches, did it, you can see personalisation in action when it
:41:04. > :41:07.comes to on-line advertising. Previous searches and general web
:41:07. > :41:11.habits get remembered, and trigger ad that is may or may not be
:41:11. > :41:15.relevant to you on various sites. It is particularly noticable if you
:41:15. > :41:19.have a web-based e-mail account such as G-mail which spots words in
:41:19. > :41:26.your messages and throws up advert it is thinks you might want to look
:41:26. > :41:31.Some people are making serious money from personalisation. I'm
:41:31. > :41:36.here to see one of them. Sam Barnett's young company uses
:41:36. > :41:40.technology to show advertisers how to reach you even when you have
:41:40. > :41:45.left them. A user goes to a retail site and leaves without buying a
:41:45. > :41:50.product and surfs the interin the. We will refined the user and send
:41:50. > :41:54.them banner ad that service products they are interested in,
:41:54. > :41:58.the ad is completely personalised so they are likely to click and buy
:41:58. > :42:01.that item from an advertiser. One of the key things is it makes
:42:01. > :42:05.advertising work, so the web continues to be free, so you and I
:42:05. > :42:08.can continue to use all the things we love about the Internet for free.
:42:08. > :42:17.Maybe we will find ourselves trapped in our own web bubbles,
:42:17. > :42:24.easy meat for advertisers. Here's a thought, maybe we will like that!
:42:24. > :42:28.With us now is Eli Pariser, author of the filter bubble, and Jacob
:42:28. > :42:32.Wiseberg from Slate magazine, and joins us by satellite. Actually,
:42:32. > :42:36.lots of people will be grateful to have the rubbish filtered out?
:42:36. > :42:42.know, the challenge here is this is happening invisibly, we don't see
:42:42. > :42:46.it at work, we don't know who dooing google thinks we are and on
:42:46. > :42:51.what basis - Google thinks we are and on what basis it is editing our
:42:51. > :42:58.results, and why fates book is showing us some stories - Facebook
:42:58. > :43:02.is showing us some stories and not others. As it shifts from human
:43:02. > :43:08.people to algorithms, you are more likely to see more things and you
:43:08. > :43:15.may not know why you are clicking. What do you make of the news?
:43:16. > :43:18.hate to reduce it to an empirical reference, I read the book and was
:43:18. > :43:23.sceptical that this degree of filtering was happening on Google.
:43:23. > :43:27.Like your reporter I tested it out, I found some people I gathered for
:43:27. > :43:29.a test on Twitter, different politicians from different parts of
:43:30. > :43:34.the country were receiving virtually the same results. More to
:43:34. > :43:43.the point, there is really no evidence to say that we are
:43:43. > :43:47.becoming a narrower parochial, more bubbly people, as a result of the
:43:47. > :43:52.the stuff going on at the internet. We are being exposed to a wider
:43:52. > :43:56.range of viewpoints, sources of information. I think that we have
:43:56. > :43:59.enough real things to worry about in terms of the supression of
:43:59. > :44:03.internet freedom, the risks to democracy that come with technology,
:44:03. > :44:07.not to focus too much on something that could happen but isn't
:44:07. > :44:13.happening. Let us continue with this fictional worry for a moment
:44:13. > :44:16.or two? Can we talk about evidence for a second or two. We could trade
:44:16. > :44:21.anecdotes and you could find evidence of searches that are
:44:21. > :44:28.different. There has been some empirical evidence on this with
:44:28. > :44:32.Google personalisation. The journal First Monday published a paper that
:44:32. > :44:37.says 64% of the search results differed between people because of
:44:37. > :44:41.the personalisation at work. are taking people for idiots aren't
:44:41. > :44:45.you? David Cameron had a news conference today. If I want to find
:44:45. > :44:49.out what happened at that news conference, I could go to the Ten
:44:49. > :44:53.Downing Street website and get a transcript of it. I could go to
:44:53. > :44:57.something that consorted with my political prejudices and a
:44:57. > :45:00.newspaper site that was left or right-wing. I know what I'm doing,
:45:01. > :45:04.you are assuming people don't know what they are doing? It is the
:45:04. > :45:09.contrary, Google and Facebook are the ones that are assuming that
:45:09. > :45:16.people only want to hear from people like them. They are feeding
:45:16. > :45:21.them stuff 0 it may produce more page views or ad reviews.
:45:21. > :45:26.sampling we did was there both here and in New York? Google, I have
:45:26. > :45:29.talked to them, they don't prevend there are differences in search
:45:29. > :45:33.results, they are clear that in some cases it could have a
:45:33. > :45:36.political bias to that. I don't think they acknowledge. That
:45:36. > :45:41.Come on Mr Wiseberg? I don't think they do acknowledge that. More
:45:41. > :45:44.ton't point if you take a little bit of historical perspective on
:45:44. > :45:48.this, for nearly all of human history, all people lived in
:45:48. > :45:52.bubbles and had no choice. Either they had no outside information or
:45:52. > :45:57.limited access to a very limited range of sources of information,
:45:57. > :46:02.and now for the first time we all have access to an unlimited range
:46:02. > :46:07.of human information. It is possible, that people won't take
:46:07. > :46:12.advantage of that and they will burrow deeper into their rabbit
:46:12. > :46:16.Warrens, and associate with people who agree, and find out about
:46:16. > :46:21.specific things they are interested in. I don't think it is happening
:46:21. > :46:24.and I think the opposite is happening. I think in social
:46:24. > :46:29.networks like Facebook, where people receive information
:46:29. > :46:34.mediateed through people they have identified as kindred spirits, it
:46:34. > :46:38.is certainly happening there, isn't it? If you don't read a newspaper
:46:38. > :46:43.and watch Newsnight and you didn't get any news, now you are getting
:46:43. > :46:47.news exclusively through Facebook. You have replaced no with limited
:46:47. > :46:53.information. Facebook is not a news organisation. How much of Slate's
:46:53. > :46:58.traffic comes from Google? Not very much. I wish we got more traffic.
:46:58. > :47:02.Most news websites it is 50% or more Google and Facebook combined,
:47:02. > :47:06.that is the New York Times and a bunch of other news websites. The
:47:07. > :47:11.point is, some stories, I have seen it on Slate, will do very well,
:47:11. > :47:15.others won't. In part, based on whether you can click "like" easily
:47:15. > :47:20.on the headline or not. That means the story earlier on the programme
:47:21. > :47:25.about Syria and the prokblems there, doesn't make it as far on Facebook
:47:25. > :47:28.as a more trivial story that is entertaining and makes you like it.
:47:28. > :47:32.It has serious consequences for journalism, and some stories make
:47:32. > :47:36.it to the public and others don't. That is not necessarily true.
:47:36. > :47:39.I'm so sorry, we have run out of time. Thank you very much both of
:47:39. > :47:49.you. That is all from Newsnight tonight, more tomorrow, until then
:47:49. > :47:53.
:47:53. > :47:57.Warming up through the weekend, that is a long way off. For the
:47:57. > :48:02.time being it remains cool and showery across the UK. A wide
:48:02. > :48:07.distribution of showers, as you can see, with very few places staying
:48:07. > :48:13.dry during the course of Wednesday. Some hours heavy and thundery. A
:48:13. > :48:20.cool one, temperatures mid-to high teens. Wimbledon could be affected
:48:20. > :48:24.by lively downpour, I'm expecting some disruptions. A broz that will
:48:24. > :48:27.move the showers through. Dryer and bright spells mixed in. That is the
:48:27. > :48:32.story across Wales. Temperatures not as high as they should be at
:48:32. > :48:38.this time of year. Mid-teens will be typical. Further north the winds
:48:38. > :48:42.will be lighter, which means the showers could last longer. A
:48:42. > :48:46.showery scene across Northern Ireland. Not the persistent heavy
:48:47. > :48:50.rain which some parts of eastern Scotland had on Tuesday. More
:48:50. > :48:54.showers to come across northern areas on Thursday, they could be
:48:54. > :48:57.heavy, and temperatures disappointingly low. A similar
:48:57. > :49:02.story further south. Dryer and brighter spells, but showers never
:49:02. > :49:04.too far away. The main emphasis on showers on Thursday will be across
:49:05. > :49:09.the more central and eastern parts of the UK. Gradually drying out