:00:08. > :00:11.The attempt to bring free market values to health didn't go exactly
:00:11. > :00:15.as planned, will it be any better with higher education. Today the
:00:15. > :00:19.Government promised value for money tables and universities fighting
:00:19. > :00:24.like rats in sack to get hold of the best students. Is this a
:00:24. > :00:27.visionary plan for the future or ideolgical incoherence, we will
:00:28. > :00:32.hear from the universities minister. We will ask two people with very
:00:32. > :00:36.different view points how they see the landscape evolving. The Greek
:00:36. > :00:40.public don't seem awfully keen to be plunged into austerity to keep
:00:40. > :00:44.the euro afloat, the day before the vote they are making their feelings
:00:44. > :00:49.known. Paul Mason is there. We will know in 48 hours whether
:00:49. > :00:52.Greece's parliament has voted for austerity, or, as the people here
:00:52. > :00:57.want, rejected it, and plunged Europe, possibly the world's
:00:57. > :01:02.economy into chaos. In Afghanistan, the British army
:01:02. > :01:09.hauled this 200 tonne turbine for a new dam over 100 miles, in the
:01:09. > :01:13.teeth of vicious Taliban resistance. Mark Urban finds it has never been
:01:13. > :01:18.installed. Instead of a visionary scheme to bring electricity to 2.5
:01:18. > :01:22.million Afghans, this has turned into an epic of mismanagement and
:01:22. > :01:28.miscommunication. Should a journalist quote people saying what
:01:28. > :01:35.he think they meant to say. Two of print journalism's finest are here
:01:35. > :01:39.to pass judgment. What's not to like about allowing
:01:39. > :01:42.students and potential students to see what they might again from a
:01:42. > :01:45.university degree. Rather a lot apparently, to judge from the
:01:45. > :01:48.resounding chorus of disapproval that met the Government's
:01:48. > :01:52.announcement on the future of higher education today.
:01:52. > :01:55.Universities will be allowed to expand to take more, better-
:01:55. > :02:01.qualified students, and in return, will have to explain what one of
:02:01. > :02:05.their degrees might be worth. There being no-one more Conservative than
:02:05. > :02:09.a liberal, both university teachers and students say it is wholesale
:02:09. > :02:14.vandalism. Before we talk about what university is for, we report.
:02:14. > :02:19.Today's exam question, what on earth can the Government do to sort
:02:19. > :02:24.out higher education? We have got about 4.5 minutes to answer this
:02:24. > :02:29.one. We better crack on. In the Commons today, the top class
:02:29. > :02:39.educations were so much on display. Labour's spokesman, Gareth Thomas,
:02:39. > :02:40.
:02:40. > :02:48.be a rite whist university. It is Carry On Up The Khyber, it is the
:02:48. > :02:54.minister doing the Hattie Jakes. I'm reliably informed that she
:02:54. > :03:00.wasn't in that film. Aside from arguing comedy, he had plenty to
:03:00. > :03:04.say about the plans for England's universities. Above all our plans
:03:04. > :03:06.benefit students, by focusing universities to focus on the
:03:06. > :03:11.student experience. They will have real choice, with better
:03:11. > :03:15.information, with a wider range of institutions to choose from, I
:03:15. > :03:21.commend the White Paper to the House. We already knew in the
:03:21. > :03:25.future universities could charge up to �9,000 a year for students.
:03:25. > :03:35.Subject to satisfying the Office for Fair Access they will help
:03:35. > :03:35.
:03:35. > :03:41.those with poor backgrounds. Today They will know how much teaching
:03:41. > :03:48.they will get and how employable they will be at the end of it. The
:03:48. > :03:51.Government will have 20,000 places for students to complete good
:03:51. > :03:56.quality sources for �7,000 a year or less. And universities will be
:03:56. > :04:01.able to take as many top student, that is with two As and a B at A-
:04:01. > :04:04.level, irrespective of their quota. For the opposition, these changes
:04:04. > :04:09.are driven by saving money. Government didn't have to cut
:04:09. > :04:13.university funding by as much as it did, 80% cuts. That is the reason
:04:13. > :04:16.why so many universities have tripled their tuition fees. That is
:04:16. > :04:20.why the Government has major funding hole in its higher
:04:20. > :04:24.education reforms, and why then today it has sought to drive fees
:04:24. > :04:27.down by threatening the quality of higher education, to help them sort
:04:27. > :04:33.out that funding hole. Fundamentally, the Government wants
:04:33. > :04:37.to change the way that university education is provided, bringing new
:04:37. > :04:41.institutions in, alongside established universities. This
:04:41. > :04:46.might look like a normal university library, it might even sound like
:04:46. > :04:52.one, but it is not. It is actually something that ministers think
:04:52. > :04:58.could be the future. BPP is not like a traditional university, we
:04:58. > :05:02.are so much more. BPP is a private organisation which has 6,500
:05:02. > :05:06.students studying business and law, and another 30,000 studying
:05:06. > :05:11.accountany. Courses are tailored to what students and their employers
:05:11. > :05:15.want. For example, they can offer three years study crammed into two.
:05:15. > :05:19.Or regional study centres, meaning students don't have the cost of
:05:19. > :05:24.staying away from home. We don't have a God-given right to exist, we
:05:24. > :05:27.exist because students want to come to us, and employers want to
:05:27. > :05:30.sponsor their employees with us. And you have to have that focus.
:05:30. > :05:34.You have to be focused on what is relevant, and the niche we have
:05:34. > :05:38.created in law and finance and accounting, is because employers
:05:39. > :05:44.want it. Their employees want it. There is only really room for a
:05:44. > :05:49.high-quality provision in the UK for the private sector. If you
:05:49. > :05:53.operate at that high-quality level, you will be successful. But the
:05:53. > :05:56.worry for some is the Government's proposal will trigger what is
:05:56. > :06:02.called race to the bottom, with cut price universities offering cheaper
:06:02. > :06:06.and cheaper courses of little value to students or the country. I worry
:06:06. > :06:11.about private providers coming in, the regulation that will control
:06:11. > :06:16.the way in which they operate, if that is striped away, or if that is
:06:16. > :06:21.reduced in any sense, then we're vulnerable then to the fly-by-night,
:06:21. > :06:25.cheap, cut-cost institutions, that will come in purely to make money.
:06:25. > :06:28.The students, I think, will end up suffering as a result of that, and
:06:28. > :06:32.indeed n some case f those companies go bankrupt, it is the
:06:32. > :06:36.taxpayer that will probably have to pick up the bill at the end of the
:06:36. > :06:39.day. There is also another concern, critics worry concentrating too
:06:40. > :06:44.much on the employment prospects of graduates, could damage the ability
:06:44. > :06:47.of universities to produce the creative, original thinkers, who
:06:47. > :06:56.innovate and generate the jobs and wealth. Any way, time's up, time to
:06:56. > :06:59.put down our pens and hand back to the invigilator.
:06:59. > :07:04.The universities' minister, David Willetts is with us now. This is a
:07:04. > :07:07.long-term plan, in 20 years time, what proportion of the school-
:07:07. > :07:12.leaving population do you expect will be at university? We don't
:07:12. > :07:15.have a target, or a central plan to that, I think it should be the
:07:15. > :07:20.result of the decisions of individual young people informed by
:07:20. > :07:23.the knowledge of all the options. More or less than now? I do think
:07:23. > :07:28.there is an underlying trend in advanced can economies for more
:07:28. > :07:31.people to go to university, yes. Probably more at university, and
:07:31. > :07:35.universities themselves, will there be more universities than there are
:07:35. > :07:39.now? Who knows l universities be bigger individually, or more
:07:39. > :07:45.smaller universities. I think well...More, Presumably some will
:07:45. > :07:48.go to the wall? No Government has guaranteed universities' right to
:07:48. > :07:52.carry on. You would be prepared to countenance some universities going
:07:52. > :07:55.to the wall? It has always been the case for successive Government that
:07:55. > :08:00.is could happen. When you are talking about big and small
:08:00. > :08:03.universities, that is a good example of the decision that is a
:08:03. > :08:07.minister doesn't have to make. The size of universities should be the
:08:07. > :08:10.results of student choices and university managers deciding how to
:08:11. > :08:14.run the universities. You are prepared to see some go to the
:08:14. > :08:18.wall? If there is a university, that has not got any student who is
:08:18. > :08:22.wish to go there, there is no basis on which any Government has said
:08:22. > :08:25.that should carry on in existence. In that respect we are sticking
:08:25. > :08:29.with the same view as the previous Government took. What I will say,
:08:29. > :08:32.is universities are going to have to satisfy students if they want to
:08:32. > :08:38.thrive and expand and grow. Isn't the fact of the matter, you
:08:38. > :08:41.have got this all the wrong way round, this is a long-term strategy,
:08:41. > :08:45.devised after you have implemented all the short-term questions, like
:08:45. > :08:48.funding of universities, had you done it the other way round, it
:08:48. > :08:52.would have been more sensible to say there will be these categories
:08:52. > :08:56.of universities, charging these sorts of fees, and they will be
:08:56. > :09:00.entitled to that, and another category who charge fees lower than
:09:01. > :09:06.�7,500 a year, and they are entitled to do something else, why
:09:06. > :09:09.didn't you say that before setting the fees? I have no intention of
:09:09. > :09:13.saying some categories and groups can do this. We are giving more
:09:13. > :09:18.freedom to universities in the first year. We are saying one in
:09:18. > :09:22.four places at university in the year 2012/13, they will be
:09:22. > :09:26.contestable, the money will go with the student. If in future years we
:09:26. > :09:28.wish to see that grow greater and greater. I suggest to you you
:09:29. > :09:35.haven't the faintest idea what is going on. When you said when it
:09:35. > :09:42.came to university fees that in exceptional circumstances fees of
:09:42. > :09:45.�9,000 might be charged, did you imagine that 95% of the
:09:45. > :09:50.universities would be at that level? We believe the average fees
:09:50. > :09:54.of university will be lower. What is exceptional? On this question of
:09:54. > :09:58.our strategy. Let me say, in the White Paper, there is a very clear
:09:58. > :10:02.strategy, which is the money goes to the student, the money then
:10:02. > :10:06.follows to the student to the university they choose, there is
:10:06. > :10:10.far more information than there ever was before, that in addition,
:10:10. > :10:13.universities will therefore be able to focus on the quality of the
:10:13. > :10:17.teaching experience, we think that is a coherent programme which
:10:17. > :10:19.offers a far better deal for students. That is what we believe
:10:20. > :10:23.in. You say it is a long-term strategy, but the fact of the
:10:23. > :10:27.matter is, we see from what's happened with fees, you can't even
:10:27. > :10:31.make a strategy that last trees or four months? What we are proposing
:10:31. > :10:35.today is consistent with what we said last October. These are the
:10:35. > :10:39.long-term consequences of the shift to money going through students'
:10:40. > :10:43.choice, via fees and loans. Of course the students don't pay the
:10:43. > :10:48.money up front, it is only paid back when they are graduates
:10:48. > :10:52.earning more than �2 1,000 a year. It is a liberalisation of the fees'
:10:52. > :10:58.regime, it is more information for student, greater diversity of
:10:58. > :11:00.universities, all that with the aim of offering a better deal for
:11:00. > :11:05.students, because universities focus on higher quality of teaching.
:11:05. > :11:09.I think it is a strategy in the best interest of students. It will
:11:09. > :11:13.be a two-teir system? I think there will be a whole range of different
:11:13. > :11:16.types of universities. It is not going to be two-teir. There will be
:11:16. > :11:20.some people who want part-time education, some people who want to
:11:20. > :11:23.do their course intensively in two years. There will be mature
:11:23. > :11:26.students, three-year campus universities you leave home to
:11:26. > :11:30.study at, a whole range of different types. Different student
:11:30. > :11:35.also want a different type of higher education. When you say in
:11:35. > :11:43.the White Paper, higher education has a fundamental value in itself,
:11:43. > :11:47.that is entirely at odds with the rather mechanistic, functional
:11:47. > :11:52.attitude you seem to take to the future of universities? I know just
:11:52. > :11:59.what you mean. When you are sitting in had daept doing public policy,
:11:59. > :12:04.you think about - a department doing public policy, you think
:12:04. > :12:07.about what is it about, I think every day the purpose of a
:12:07. > :12:11.university is more worthwhile than what you can catch in those
:12:11. > :12:14.decisions. We are trying to ensure these incredibly valuable
:12:14. > :12:17.institutions thrive, are autonomous, people go and study at them because
:12:18. > :12:21.what they study is worthwhile in itself. That is the fundamental
:12:21. > :12:25.truth, I try not to lose sight of it, even when you are having to
:12:25. > :12:29.take decisions on the level of fees and loans, and the level of
:12:29. > :12:34.maintenance support. Minister, thank you.
:12:34. > :12:39.With us now are Howard Hotson, professor of modern intellectual
:12:39. > :12:44.history at Oxford University. And a manager of one of the private
:12:44. > :12:52.providers in the world, the London College of Accountany. What are the
:12:52. > :12:56.fees at your college? From 2012 they are �4,500. That is about half
:12:57. > :13:01.a London University's fee, how do you do it? The students won't get a
:13:01. > :13:06.full university experience, in a sense, we will provide a first-
:13:06. > :13:10.class, we believe education but they don't have all the sports
:13:10. > :13:16.clubs and social facilities and a large campus environment that you
:13:16. > :13:19.get in traditional university. Our aim is, in fact, to provide a good
:13:19. > :13:25.undergraduate education for UK students where they can exit at the
:13:25. > :13:30.end of three years without any debt at all. We teach over two complete
:13:30. > :13:33.days in the week, which allows students to then get a decent part-
:13:33. > :13:38.time job, get some good work experience, earn some money. What
:13:38. > :13:42.is there to object to in that sort of institution being part of the
:13:42. > :13:46.mix of higher education? Well a traditional university is something
:13:46. > :13:50.which combines teaching and research. The reason is combines
:13:50. > :13:54.teaching and research is to foster critical thinking, that is supposed
:13:54. > :13:57.to be fundamental. He has explained it is not a traditional university?
:13:57. > :14:02.Why should they be called university, that is fundamental to
:14:02. > :14:05.the definition of a university. do you call yourself that? We call
:14:05. > :14:08.ourselves a business school. I would call ourselves a working
:14:09. > :14:13.university. You don't surely think there is
:14:13. > :14:17.only one model of university, do you? In law, in this country, this
:14:17. > :14:20.has been the definition of the university, and as I understand it,
:14:21. > :14:24.will continue to be the definition of the university in Scotland. The
:14:24. > :14:29.reason being, what is absolutely fundamental and intergral to a
:14:29. > :14:32.university education, is education and critical thinking, and if you
:14:32. > :14:35.abstract critical thinking from the equation, for certain subjects,
:14:35. > :14:39.like accountany, for instance, which should not be about creative
:14:39. > :14:42.accountany, but about following the rules, textbook learning is
:14:42. > :14:45.perfectly adequate. For most of the traditional curriculum of a
:14:45. > :14:49.university, the fundamental objective is to teach students to
:14:49. > :14:53.think critically, you do that by engaging with people who are at the
:14:53. > :14:57.forefront of their discipline constantly. That extends to
:14:57. > :15:01.disciplines like engineering as well? It certainly does. Every
:15:01. > :15:04.discipline at the university of Oxford falls into that category,
:15:04. > :15:08.does it? Every discipline in the university of Oxford combines
:15:08. > :15:15.teaching and research, absolutely. In the traditional university that
:15:15. > :15:19.is fundamentally a part of the equation. I'm just surprised, are
:15:19. > :15:24.we saying it doesn't apply to accounting, finance and business
:15:24. > :15:27.and management. It does as taught at university. These two are
:15:27. > :15:30.disciplines which are constantly evolving, in response to new
:15:30. > :15:34.challenges, that requires people at the forefront of their discipline
:15:34. > :15:38.engaging in research and re- thinking the fundamentals of their
:15:38. > :15:42.discipline. There is a real reek of class prejudice about this? I don't
:15:42. > :15:48.think so. Next time you will be insisting that dons have the right
:15:48. > :15:51.to sit around and drink port after dinner? I'm not suggesting that for
:15:51. > :15:56.certain disciplines textbook learning is not a perfectly
:15:56. > :16:00.valuable thing to be done. I am saying, for the vast majority of
:16:00. > :16:04.the traditional university curriculum, the whole purpose is
:16:04. > :16:08.undermined if what is not being taught is independent of thought.
:16:08. > :16:12.Independence of thought means a different style of teaching than
:16:12. > :16:15.simply textbook learning. What is your real objection to David
:16:15. > :16:19.Willetts reorganising principle in all this? My personal fundamental
:16:19. > :16:22.objection is the opening up of universities to market forces. My
:16:22. > :16:31.view would be that universities have traditionally been funded,
:16:31. > :16:35.whether by the state, or as private begin factions, like the Ivy League
:16:35. > :16:39.systems in the United States, to nuture an environment that allows
:16:39. > :16:44.values to be passed from one generation to the next, without
:16:44. > :16:48.those values being undermined and marketised and monitorised by the
:16:48. > :16:53.market. The most dangerous thing which this new radical,
:16:53. > :16:58.unprecedented experiment in university funding implies, is
:16:58. > :17:02.deliberately engineering the marketisation and monitorisation of
:17:02. > :17:08.the university system, when the whole purpose of universities has
:17:08. > :17:11.been to keep that one removed. is your thoughts on that analysis
:17:11. > :17:16.of a university? I would say we have the same purpose, what we are
:17:16. > :17:22.trying to do is change how people think, and to get them to think in
:17:22. > :17:28.a more analytical way. We are trying to achieve exactly the same
:17:28. > :17:33.ends. At my business school as you are trying at Oxford university.
:17:33. > :17:38.I'm slightly taken aback that you think something else is going on, I
:17:38. > :17:47.hear this textbook learning reference. Do you think accountany
:17:47. > :17:51.is a paradigmatic with the disciplines across education.
:17:51. > :17:55.has been within university education since the 1930s. It is
:17:55. > :18:00.deliberately and directly related to managing accounts, and to making
:18:00. > :18:03.money, where as the traditional university education is not. Is the
:18:04. > :18:08.traditional resentment of people who have to learn a living? I don't
:18:08. > :18:11.think so at all. I'm saying that is one thing universities need to
:18:11. > :18:16.accommodate, and therefore, we study economics, we study business
:18:16. > :18:19.and finance, there is a business school at Oxford University, it is
:18:19. > :18:25.one of the most recent major developments. That is fine as part
:18:25. > :18:30.of a university, but accountany some how isn't? I'm not suggesting
:18:30. > :18:40.accountany isn't, I'm suggesting the marketisation of the system
:18:40. > :18:41.
:18:41. > :18:45.which may work perfectly fine and provide social benefits in a small,
:18:45. > :18:48.private business college such as your's, is not the appropriate
:18:48. > :18:52.model for university. You think that people who have never had the
:18:52. > :18:56.chance of university education should be taxed in order that this
:18:56. > :19:01.style of education can be perpetuated intestify infinitely?
:19:01. > :19:04.Most of the funding for universities should come from a
:19:04. > :19:08.combination of students paying tuition fees, which they do at the
:19:08. > :19:12.moment, and possibly need to be increased, I don't think anyone is
:19:12. > :19:17.disputing that, and the taxes, which they pay, because a
:19:17. > :19:22.university education, amongst many other things, is very often a way
:19:22. > :19:30.of increasing your contribution to the public purse as you work your
:19:30. > :19:34.way up the 40% tax bracket. That is a sum which an accountant should
:19:34. > :19:39.easily be able to work out. If indeed a traditional university
:19:39. > :19:42.education increases your earning power, it also increases your
:19:42. > :19:48.public contribution to the public purse.
:19:48. > :19:52.The birth place of European democracy resounded to the sound of
:19:52. > :19:56.chants, shattering glass and tear gas, as they tried to persuade
:19:56. > :20:03.their political leaders not to accept the terms of the loan they
:20:03. > :20:11.talk. Greece's state is a direct result of its banality and
:20:11. > :20:21.incompetence, and a refusal to agree will timey the further funds.
:20:21. > :20:25.A quiet - timey the further funds. Something has changed, two weeks
:20:25. > :20:29.ago it was a right that more or less brought the Government down,
:20:29. > :20:34.forced the Government to reshuffle, and left Athens lawless for a few
:20:34. > :20:41.hours. None of that has happened today, for two reasons, first, we
:20:41. > :20:44.are seeing the beginnings of a response by the financial community,
:20:44. > :20:54.a coherent response. The second thing is, we are seeing the
:20:54. > :20:58.
:20:58. > :21:05.beginnings, maybe, of competent governance. The beleaguered cops,
:21:05. > :21:10.the angry youth, the tear gas, and the stun grenades.
:21:10. > :21:17.This is Greece, again, on the eve of a parliamentary vote, on which
:21:17. > :21:25.the fate of the euro hangs. For the international finance system, this
:21:25. > :21:29.is the real frontline. MPs from the ruling centre left PASOK Party,
:21:29. > :21:33.asked to stomach austerity on a scale never before inflicted. They
:21:33. > :21:40.voted it through in principle today, at a key committee, but for the
:21:40. > :21:44.European Union, and IMF, in principle is not enough.
:21:44. > :21:52.The new Greek austerity plan will slash pensions, slash the wages of
:21:52. > :21:58.public sector workers, and impose a crisis tax on nearly everyone. So
:21:58. > :22:03.today, a 48-hour general strike, and the union delegations limbering
:22:03. > :22:07.up for a long battle of attrition. But white collar workers have been
:22:07. > :22:11.the bedrock of PASOK's vote, and the pressure on the politicians is
:22:11. > :22:17.huge. The people behind me are a movement not to pay your road toll
:22:17. > :22:21.or your tax, or your electricity bill, what they are chanting is,
:22:21. > :22:27."remember 1973, remember the revolution".
:22:27. > :22:34.We see people losing their homes from the banks, so this makes
:22:34. > :22:40.people feel, I mean, very, it is a disaster, a social disaster. What
:22:40. > :22:44.do you do, and what has brought you here? I'm an unemployed civil
:22:44. > :22:50.engineer, I'm here because the unemployment of youth is rising up
:22:50. > :22:56.to very high limits, and we don't find any job, you don't have any
:22:56. > :23:04.money, life is very difficult for It is this woman's job to face them
:23:04. > :23:10.down. She's a rising star among PASOK as
:23:10. > :23:17.seats. There is lack of an alternative, it is believed.
:23:17. > :23:21.people, they are people that are fed up, they don't say they want a
:23:21. > :23:29.different Government, they are just fed up. They are fed up with all
:23:29. > :23:33.the measures, they are fed up with the lack of ...They Have pictures
:23:33. > :23:38.of Mr Papandreou with a noose around his neck? They are angry
:23:38. > :23:42.people, but they don't have a solution. They don't provide an
:23:42. > :23:47.alternative. As these pictures beam into the homes of Dutch and German
:23:47. > :23:52.tax-payers, the hand Greece has to play is getting stronger. To those
:23:52. > :23:55.opposed to further bailouts, PASOK says this: Do you think it is only
:23:55. > :23:59.Greek people that will take the pain, what will happen to the euro,
:23:59. > :24:03.what will happen to the eurozone, do you think it will be operating
:24:03. > :24:09.perfectly fine? We are talking in the case of what, a default? We are
:24:09. > :24:14.talking in the case of a default. The threat of default, and images
:24:14. > :24:18.like these of social crisis, have produced, in the last few days, the
:24:18. > :24:21.beginnings of a deal. French banks will bury Greece's debts for 30
:24:21. > :24:30.years, in return Greece will force the austerity plan through
:24:30. > :24:36.parliament, but will it be the end. Will it be cathartic. It will not
:24:36. > :24:41.be cathartic, or it is not sold to be cathartic, we need to deliver a
:24:41. > :24:46.country that is productive and entreprenurial, that exports. What
:24:46. > :24:52.does Europe need to do? Europe needs to have a quick reactionry
:24:52. > :24:57.system. It doesn't have one? needs to create one then. Clashes
:24:57. > :25:03.like those today have fed off that uncertainty and reached a new
:25:03. > :25:05.intensity. A media van torched, serious injuries, damage on an epic
:25:05. > :25:09.scale. Tomorrow's protest promises to be
:25:10. > :25:17.huge, and with the slimmest of parliamentary majorities, those on
:25:17. > :25:24.the streets still hope to stop the Euro-deal. And so, another day of
:25:24. > :25:28.fire, gas and mayhem in the square. We will know in 48 hours whether
:25:28. > :25:31.Greece's parliament has voted for austerity, or as the people here
:25:31. > :25:36.want, rejected it, and plunged Europe, possibly the world's
:25:36. > :25:44.economy into chaos. By this time tomorrow night, we should know the
:25:44. > :25:47.outcome. We already know the cost. Obviously there has been a lot of
:25:47. > :25:54.trouble in Athens, what has been going on elsewhere in Europe to try
:25:54. > :25:58.to sort this out? Well, look, the European Union and the IMF seem to
:25:58. > :26:06.be getting their act together. The French have been working over the
:26:06. > :26:09.weekend on the idea of French banks taking the lead, as I say, burying
:26:09. > :26:13.Greece's debt. You take it for 30 years, you roll it over, that more
:26:13. > :26:17.or less means it is a non-issue for the rest of my career as an
:26:17. > :26:20.economics journalist. That is a quarter of Greece's debt, the other
:26:20. > :26:24.three quarters are being gently finessed on to the balance sheets
:26:24. > :26:28.of what, states, the IMF, the European Central Bank, there to be,
:26:28. > :26:33.again, managed. Why is this important? Behind me, over the hill,
:26:33. > :26:37.the riot is still going on. There is the Greek parliament, just over
:26:37. > :26:42.the hill. Now the parliamentary arithmetic there is quite tight for
:26:42. > :26:46.Papandreou, maybe four, five votes in it tomorrow. Normally you would
:26:46. > :26:50.be saying look that is quite a problem, even if he wins, how does
:26:50. > :26:55.he implement the austerity, and stop local Governments and unions
:26:55. > :26:58.getting in the way of the austerity. Now, if the European Union and IMF
:26:58. > :27:03.can sort this long-term, Greece gets, and the Greek politicians,
:27:03. > :27:08.like you heard there, get what they want, they get the opportunity to
:27:08. > :27:12.make a major change in this country's economy, and 1989-style,
:27:12. > :27:17.east European change, that just completely reverses the patterns of
:27:17. > :27:22.development for decades. They need space to do that, and to deliver.
:27:22. > :27:26.They resent the fact that they are being rushed along on the timetable
:27:26. > :27:30.of sovereign debt crisis. They need basically some breathing space so
:27:30. > :27:33.they can convince the Greek people, take them with them, and actually
:27:33. > :27:36.go somewhere with this country. We might actually, although tomorrow
:27:36. > :27:39.will be very torrid for the demonstrators and all the
:27:39. > :27:43.journalists here covering it. You saw there what happened to one of
:27:43. > :27:48.our vans. It will be torrid, but it might just be the beginning of
:27:48. > :27:54.something new. Now, gang of suicide bombers
:27:54. > :27:58.attacked an interNational Hotel in the Afghan capital, Kabul, tonight,
:27:58. > :28:03.at least ten time are thought dead. A week after President Obama's
:28:03. > :28:05.gamble to pull thousands of troops out of Afghanistan sooner than
:28:05. > :28:11.expected. We have been investigating the military campaign
:28:11. > :28:16.as a whole, and taking stock of key moments in the bitter battle for
:28:16. > :28:20.Helmand Province, for a BBC documentary going out tonight.
:28:20. > :28:25.All the attention is on the withdrawal. Did the British have
:28:25. > :28:27.any idea what they were getting into? I think it is extraordinary
:28:27. > :28:32.how little thought had gone into it. Talking to all of the people
:28:32. > :28:37.involved, many of them, we found, extraordinary impressions of what
:28:37. > :28:43.they thought awaited them, and what actually came. Now, the current
:28:43. > :28:49.Government is actually quite ready to begin the reckoning of the
:28:49. > :28:54.decision-making, to go into Helmand in 2005/2006, and the extent to
:28:54. > :28:56.which that prejudices the campaign, the House of Commons Defence
:28:56. > :28:59.Committee is also investigating these issues. We are already
:28:59. > :29:03.beginning to pick over what happened. When barely more than
:29:03. > :29:07.1,000 combat troops were sent into an area half the size of England,
:29:07. > :29:15.and told to get on with it, amidst thousands of insurgents, this gives
:29:15. > :29:19.a flavour. We spoke add hornet's nest and they
:29:19. > :29:22.came out biting. We didn't have enough people on the ground.
:29:22. > :29:28.were massively trenched at the time. There was one battle group, pretty
:29:28. > :29:36.much to cover the whole of Helmand. I asked on a daily, weekly basis,
:29:36. > :29:41.for more troops, more capability, more helicopters. I remember saying
:29:41. > :29:48.to the Chief of Defence Staff in 2006 one of his visits, that we
:29:48. > :29:52.needed 10,000 troops to achieve what we set out to do. At what
:29:52. > :29:58.point did NATO realise that the British couldn't cope? Some people
:29:58. > :30:02.were talking about this from as early as 2007/2008. Iraq was a big
:30:02. > :30:05.priority for the UK and the US. The decision hadn't been made to surge
:30:05. > :30:09.in the final months, President Bush sent more troops then President
:30:09. > :30:12.Obama, the very people who last week he announced was pulling back.
:30:12. > :30:18.And so it wasn't really until those decisions were taken that they
:30:18. > :30:20.could really get to grips, and far from the 10,000 troops that Ed
:30:20. > :30:26.Butler, that first British commander was talking about there,
:30:26. > :30:29.we have ended up today with 30,000 troops in Helmand, two third of
:30:29. > :30:34.them American. What we found talking to people involved in this
:30:34. > :30:39.decision making s that the American senior officers are now ready to
:30:39. > :30:44.talk about how they decided the British couldn't cope, and they are
:30:44. > :30:48.being increasingly frank. Let's make no mistake about it, the
:30:48. > :30:55.Taliban had the momentum, broadly speaking in Afghanistan, until
:30:55. > :30:59.probably some time last fall. British forces in he will mand was
:30:59. > :31:05.under- Helmand was underresourced make no mistake, I will leave that
:31:05. > :31:08.to the British leadership to decide how much that was underresourced.
:31:08. > :31:14.American generals decided a major reinforcement was needed in Helmand,
:31:14. > :31:18.putting the Brits in the back seat. Some had been saying it for years.
:31:18. > :31:23.It actually began with me. I began to express to the leadership of the
:31:23. > :31:26.United States of America that this was an underresourced force.
:31:26. > :31:36.Manoeuvre forces, flying machines and intelligence. That did not
:31:36. > :31:37.
:31:37. > :31:41.change until I would say 2010. Of course, when he refers to 2010
:31:41. > :31:46.he's talking about the surge force that is are now being withdrawn
:31:46. > :31:50.over the next 15 months following that announcement from President
:31:50. > :31:54.Obama last week. In the time remaining for NATO troops in
:31:54. > :31:58.Afghanistan they are desperate to show effect. They are still
:31:58. > :32:06.struggling to do the non-military stuff. And we have been looking at
:32:06. > :32:16.one particular place where their failure to do so has been epic in
:32:16. > :32:21.
:32:21. > :32:31.its scale. High at the northern end of Helmand Province, man and nature
:32:31. > :32:34.
:32:34. > :32:38.have combined to produce this. The Kajki lake and dam came about from
:32:38. > :32:48.an American aid project during the 1950s, NATO wanted to double the
:32:48. > :32:52.
:32:52. > :32:56.power produced by the dam, so far its grand designs have failed.
:32:56. > :33:00.This village just below the dam used to be a bustling market and
:33:00. > :33:06.home to thousands. The people left just before the British came in
:33:06. > :33:13.2006, and have never come back. The US Marines now patrol. It used to
:33:13. > :33:16.be a thriving bazzar, but due to the fighting between the Taliban
:33:16. > :33:20.and the British, because of the intensity of it, all the people who
:33:20. > :33:25.lived and worked in the bazzar moved out. Is it right that there
:33:25. > :33:32.is one person who still lives in this? They have bread maker that
:33:32. > :33:40.supplies bread for the local security, and the marines.
:33:40. > :33:44.Holding on to Kijak, has cost many lives. Soldiers here have to resort
:33:44. > :33:53.to artillery, and even air power to maintain their hold. The Americans
:33:53. > :33:58.inherited the dam and its problems from the British, who held Kij k
:33:58. > :34:02.aki for four years. Now they want to upgrade the dam, install a new
:34:02. > :34:08.turbine and provide two million more Afghans with electricity.
:34:08. > :34:13.will add the third turbine, vacant for two years, the parts of which
:34:13. > :34:17.have been sitting up there since 2008. We will get it in and add to
:34:17. > :34:21.50% the production of the site. It will make it one of the larger
:34:21. > :34:28.facilities in Afghanistan. Was it the British who originally spoke
:34:28. > :34:32.about installing the new turbine by the end of 2007. Today, with this
:34:32. > :34:39.key project still languishing, NATO's chander has told us that
:34:39. > :34:46.this is an object lesson in how not to do things.
:34:46. > :34:51.With respect, I would be careful not to overgeneralise on the basis
:34:51. > :34:56.of one very tough mission, that may have included overpromising and
:34:56. > :35:01.underdelivering in the past. One of the other mandates I brought in, as
:35:01. > :35:07.part of my staff, is we would try to the best of our ability, we
:35:07. > :35:13.can't always help ourselves, we try to under-promise and over-deliver,
:35:13. > :35:17.to avoid the triumphant rhetoric that has occasionally followed some
:35:18. > :35:23.small tactical successes, only to find out they weren't as enduring
:35:23. > :35:28.as perhaps we thought they were at that time.
:35:28. > :35:38.In 2008, the British mounted an operation, one of their biggest in
:35:38. > :35:41.
:35:41. > :35:48.Helmand, in fact, to move a 210 tonne turbine up to Kijaki.
:35:48. > :35:54.It involved more than 3,000 troops. The turbine was broken down and put
:35:54. > :35:58.on low loaders, they crawled up towards the dam at an average speed
:35:58. > :36:03.of barely one mile per hour. The British knew there would be heavy
:36:03. > :36:07.resistance if they tried to fight their way through Kijaki, the
:36:07. > :36:12.village down below me, and bring the village up that road, the 611.
:36:12. > :36:17.They did try to negotiate an agreement whereby it could come
:36:17. > :36:23.peacefully up to the dam. After leaving Kandahar, the convoy
:36:23. > :36:31.travelled through the desert, avoiding the enemy stronghold of
:36:31. > :36:35.sanguine. Around 100 miles into its don Sangin, and around 100 miles
:36:35. > :36:39.into the journey, there was fierce fighting. The Taliban leadership
:36:39. > :36:47.rejected the British offer of a deal to get the turbine through.
:36:47. > :36:54.That produced a battle. The British hailed the turbine's
:36:54. > :37:00.arrival as a triumph. Although they had lost no troops and estimated
:37:00. > :37:04.200 Afghan insurgents had been killed getting there. The military
:37:04. > :37:09.were proud of their achievement and flew in the press. The turbines
:37:09. > :37:13.arrived in Kijaki in these different lorries. They are being
:37:13. > :37:21.unloaded. Although fighting continued around
:37:21. > :37:25.the dam, the Defence Secretary argued it was right to push on.
:37:25. > :37:28.But even today, the turbine parts are sitting unmoved where the
:37:29. > :37:33.British army dropped them three years ago.
:37:34. > :37:42.All of the blood, sweat and tears expended bringing this plant here,
:37:42. > :37:45.have so far proven to be in vain. Instead of proving to be a
:37:46. > :37:49.visionary scheme to bring electricity to two-and-a-half
:37:49. > :37:54.million Afghans, this has turned into an epic of mismanagement and
:37:54. > :37:59.miscommunication between aid organisations and military. So why
:37:59. > :38:05.has the turbine carried up at such cost remained unassembled. New
:38:05. > :38:10.foundations need to be built for it, requiring 500 tonnes of cement.
:38:11. > :38:14.Chinese workers, who were meant to do the work, fled.
:38:14. > :38:18.Since the US Marines took over in Kijaki last year, American
:38:18. > :38:23.commanders have been trying to get the turbine project going again.
:38:23. > :38:26.When did the Americans think they might have it completed? It is our
:38:27. > :38:33.hope that most of the material that is up at the site is reusable. If
:38:33. > :38:38.it is, and we don't have any long lead time items, like transformers,
:38:38. > :38:42.to procure, we should be able to get the turbine installed in 24
:38:42. > :38:48.months after that assessment is done, some time between 24-30
:38:48. > :38:51.months from today. Even if that timetable is met,
:38:51. > :38:57.electricity will not reach the Afghans until seven years after it
:38:57. > :39:02.was first promised. But given that Helmand has proven
:39:02. > :39:10.to be a graveyard of optimisim, it may well be, that the project won't
:39:10. > :39:14.even be finished by the time NATO withdraws.
:39:14. > :39:17.When you see words in quotation marks in a newspaper or magazine,
:39:17. > :39:24.what can you assume. An interview is a conversation between a
:39:24. > :39:29.journalist and his or her subject. There is a minor storm in media
:39:29. > :39:35.line - medialand, when a columnist said he sometimes took words
:39:35. > :39:38.uttered by a subject in one context and inserted them into his form of
:39:38. > :39:42.the conversation. He claims other people do the same thing. Nobody in
:39:42. > :39:49.our trade is under the misapprehension of how trusts we
:39:49. > :39:55.are, but what are readers entitled to expect? What is the line between
:39:55. > :39:58.playingism and slieth of hand in journalism. It is a question that
:39:58. > :40:03.Johann Hari, columnist for the Independent is being forced to
:40:03. > :40:09.consider. He was accused on a blog last week of taking quotes from
:40:09. > :40:19.interviewee, and passing them off as being said during interviews. He
:40:19. > :40:23.
:40:23. > :40:29.admitted it was the case. He wrote The admission has provoked much
:40:29. > :40:35.huffing and puffing in the Twitter sphere, over what are, amusingly
:40:35. > :40:40.called, journalistic ethics, those who attack the issue calling it
:40:40. > :40:44.playingism and those who have a more lenient view. Johann Hari's
:40:44. > :40:47.blog has opened an interesting conversation. He said what he did
:40:47. > :40:52.was normal practice, he said ultimately the test he used was
:40:52. > :41:02.this, would the readers mind you did this or prefer it?
:41:02. > :41:07.
:41:07. > :41:11.With us now are two esteemed hacks, Jean Alesi of the Daily - Anne
:41:12. > :41:18.Lesley .r. How serious is this - how serious is this? Deborah and I
:41:18. > :41:22.are friend of Johann's, we admire and like him. But he's been an
:41:22. > :41:27.idiot doing this, it used to happen a lot in my youth, which as you
:41:27. > :41:37.know is a very long time ago. There wasn't an internet, there was no
:41:37. > :41:42.way anyone could check. Now, of course, why the Twitterrerati are
:41:42. > :41:46.up in it. There have been some very funny jokes on it. They can do it,
:41:46. > :41:50.poor Hari is sobbing in a dark corner, he has made an idiot of
:41:50. > :41:55.himself and been caught. In my youth you were never caught.
:41:55. > :42:00.you do it? No, I tell you why I didn't. Actually I was a proper
:42:00. > :42:07.journalist. I used to loathe the people, I would be say in rode
:42:07. > :42:11.deegsia, as it then dRohdesia, as it then was. I would go into the
:42:11. > :42:15.bush with the freedom fighters, I would struggle to get to the facts,
:42:15. > :42:20.and get back to the hotel, I would find my colleagues had never left
:42:20. > :42:25.the bar. We called them the Avon ladies, they were all very
:42:25. > :42:30.interested in make-up, for example, making up stories! I had to do very
:42:30. > :42:36.hard work, I get very annoyed when people do that. The axe you are
:42:37. > :42:44.grinding is pretty rusty now. Have you ever done it? Yes, I have.
:42:44. > :42:50.Was it a serious offence? I did it early in my career, at a point
:42:50. > :42:54.before I realised I shouldn't do it now, I wouldn't do it now. He
:42:54. > :42:58.became a top class newspaper at 23 years old, he didn't spend loot of
:42:58. > :43:03.time on trade papers and local papers. He has learned on the job.
:43:03. > :43:11.He has learned this thing, at not an old age. In full public view,
:43:11. > :43:18.he's not a playingerist, he is not - playingist, he's not pretending
:43:18. > :43:20.to have interview people. It is misrepresentation if they are not
:43:21. > :43:26.the words uttered. There is a interest rate between
:43:26. > :43:29.the viewer and the audience and the interviewer that contravenes?
:43:30. > :43:35.should have attributed his quotes. You really should, this was what I
:43:35. > :43:44.would do. If somebody I was interviewing, who had opineed
:43:44. > :43:49.endlessly in his own books, or her books, And they were actually
:43:49. > :43:54.opining better when they wrote it down or talking to me, I would
:43:54. > :44:04.select the quote, as he once said, not that he said it to me.
:44:04. > :44:04.
:44:04. > :44:07.could call the person and say you prexed this much more clearly?
:44:07. > :44:11.importantly Johann has done over 50 interviews and nobody has
:44:11. > :44:16.complained. It is not the point. However, Jeremy, this would have
:44:16. > :44:19.come to light a lot more quickly, that he was doing something he
:44:19. > :44:23.shouldn't have been, if the subjects of the interviews had been
:44:23. > :44:29.unhappy in the first place. It is material to how it has taken so
:44:29. > :44:33.long for him to learn this lesson. Those interviewees, don't
:44:33. > :44:37.necessarily know anything about the Independent, so they wouldn't have
:44:37. > :44:41.read it, a lot of people wouldn't have read it. We have agreed this
:44:41. > :44:45.is irrelevant, the crucial thing is the relationship between the writer
:44:45. > :44:50.and reader, can they trust it. Is there a difference between what a
:44:50. > :45:00.news reporter is expected to do, and what a columnist, or an
:45:00. > :45:00.
:45:00. > :45:10.essayist is gettinged? I absolutely disagree, totally. What enrages me
:45:10. > :45:13.is you have people like Bruce Chapwin, and that guy who made
:45:13. > :45:16.travel book, who pretended these were accurate reports of the people
:45:16. > :45:21.they met, they weren't, they were made up, we are supposed to deal
:45:21. > :45:31.with in facts. I think there is a difference between an interview and
:45:31. > :45:31.
:45:31. > :45:39.a profile, in a profile, in the case of Gideon Levy, he quoted
:45:39. > :45:44.books he quote - quotes those books. I think that is one of the ways
:45:44. > :45:49.there has been a confusion. He hasn't deliberately behaved
:45:49. > :45:54.unethically, he hasn't tried to trick people or pull the wool over
:45:54. > :45:58.people's eyes, he has just learned a hard lesson in public. Many, many
:45:58. > :46:02.years ago, there was a showbiz editor, who did an interview with
:46:02. > :46:07.some dim American starlet, she complained to the paper saying I
:46:07. > :46:13.never said any of that. He said to me, what is the young hussy
:46:13. > :46:18.complaining about, you gave her my best quotes. That's fair enough
:46:18. > :46:28.point to end. That's it for now. Back tomorrow at
:46:28. > :46:38.10.30, Wimbledon permitting, until 10.30, Wimbledon permitting, until
:46:38. > :46:55.
:46:55. > :46:58.The hot and humid weather finally left our hours, the thunderstorms
:46:58. > :47:01.that resulted are off into the near continent. A dryer start to
:47:01. > :47:05.Wednesday, sunshine around as well, a little on the cool side, compared
:47:05. > :47:08.with recent days. Refreshingly cool for some of you. Through the day
:47:08. > :47:11.shower clouds brewing up, the heavier showers will transfer from
:47:11. > :47:15.North West England to north-east. Sunshine between them. Bigger gaps
:47:15. > :47:20.between the showers further south, many of you staying dry,
:47:20. > :47:24.temperatures near normal for the time of year, it lasts 21-22. Mid-
:47:24. > :47:30.to high teens across South-West England and through Wales, shower
:47:30. > :47:33.clouds breaking in the morning. Even here we will see decent dry
:47:33. > :47:37.and sunny weather a bit of a westerly breeze. Northern Ireland
:47:37. > :47:42.will see the showers heaviest in the morning, in the afternoon fewer,
:47:42. > :47:45.lighter showers expected. Even here showers will be expected 17-18, a
:47:45. > :47:48.good scattering of showers across Scotland into the afternoon,
:47:48. > :47:52.heaviest by the end of the day. Looking at the differences between
:47:52. > :47:56.Wednesday and Thursday, not a huge amount on the face of it.
:47:56. > :48:00.Temperatures roughly the same values, still showers continuing
:48:00. > :48:04.into Thursday, they will become lighter and much well scattered.
:48:04. > :48:08.More in the way of dry weather from Thursday. A ridge of high pressure