:00:08. > :00:12.The first major strike in Britain under the coalition, who will blink
:00:13. > :00:17.first? The stakes could hardly be higher for the Government, the
:00:17. > :00:24.unions and for Labour. As all sides dispute the impact of the walkout,
:00:24. > :00:28.is this the beginning of a new era of industrial action? These days
:00:28. > :00:32.protestors seem to have croissants for breakfast, but the anger of
:00:32. > :00:36.what the Government is doing seems as strong as ever. Unions are
:00:36. > :00:39.taking action. It isn't just as probably many of them think, us and
:00:39. > :00:45.our own self-interests at all, it is about the defence of the
:00:46. > :00:50.education system as a whole, that is what we are about. We argue it
:00:50. > :00:55.out in the studio with major protaganist. They know they are
:00:55. > :00:59.paid and have pensions and they are lucky to have a job at this time.
:00:59. > :01:04.We have been in one community affected, here we will speak to the
:01:04. > :01:09.headteacher who worked, and his teacher who didn't. Plus lessons
:01:09. > :01:12.from history. Our group of political insiders game play the
:01:12. > :01:18.future. Also tonight, could the opposition
:01:18. > :01:27.be gaining the upper hand in Syria. Another exclusive undercover report
:01:27. > :01:31.Good evening, today's strike action by a variety of public sector
:01:31. > :01:36.unions, in England and Wales, and including the PCS in Scotland, over
:01:36. > :01:40.pensions reform, involved a series of personal and political judgments
:01:40. > :01:47.by union members, particularly teachers. It also tested the metal
:01:47. > :01:50.of David Cameron and Ed Miliband. The Labour leader exoration to
:01:50. > :01:54.teachers not to take action has brought the wrath of union leaders
:01:54. > :01:56.on his head, while the Prime Minister has to decide whether to
:01:57. > :02:03.stand his ground or make concessions. As for the strikers,
:02:03. > :02:12.it is not clear where the public sympathy lies, the argument about
:02:12. > :02:15.fairness are still being played out. Plenty has changed since the anti-
:02:15. > :02:21.Government protests of the 1980s. At Lambeth Town Hall in south
:02:21. > :02:24.London, the red flag no longer flies. These days protestors seemed
:02:24. > :02:31.to have croissants for breakfast. But the anger at what the
:02:31. > :02:34.Government is doing is just the same as it was in the 80s. Thus
:02:34. > :02:38.fortified by French pastry and English rhetoric, this group of
:02:38. > :02:43.protestors moves off to join the many others converging on
:02:43. > :02:52.Westminster. Many of the marchers are teachers, judging by the number
:02:52. > :02:56.of whistles, PE teachers. Can I walk with you a second. You two or
:02:56. > :03:01.three don't look like dangerous radicals? No we are not. Are you
:03:01. > :03:05.teachers? Yes we are. Why have you come out today? Everything else is
:03:05. > :03:09.going up in price, we haven't had pay rise for two years, how are we
:03:09. > :03:12.supposed to survive. Some people in the private sector say they have
:03:12. > :03:16.the same problem with their passion and they don't have a pension
:03:16. > :03:20.anything like as good? We pay for our pension, it is not like
:03:20. > :03:23.somebody is giving it to us. But, goes the complaint of public sector
:03:23. > :03:26.workers, they are being asked to pay more and take reduced pensions
:03:26. > :03:30.even later. We are all independent school
:03:30. > :03:33.teachers, we are not in the Vanguard of the country's
:03:33. > :03:37.revolutionaries. You are not dressed as a revolutionary? I don't
:03:37. > :03:41.feel like one. You are angry? are angry, we feel let down,
:03:41. > :03:45.because, there has always been an understanding in teaching, that
:03:45. > :03:49.teachers are not paid an enormous amount, but they have a reasonable
:03:49. > :03:52.pension, it is a pension based on what you earn any way, it is never
:03:52. > :03:55.going to be huge. Other marchers clearly haven't come straight from
:03:56. > :03:58.the staff room. The police searched this group, perhaps they have had a
:03:58. > :04:03.tip-off, perhaps it is just because one of them looks like Colonel
:04:03. > :04:10.Gaddafi. Whatever the reason, they were all
:04:10. > :04:16.let go. This is one of the features of modern protests, everyone has a
:04:16. > :04:20.camera, we have got one, then they are filming the police, and over
:04:20. > :04:24.there, the police are filming everyone else.
:04:24. > :04:28.As much as it angers these people, the Government has said there is no
:04:28. > :04:33.alternative but to cut pensions. On Tuesday the Prime Minister made the
:04:33. > :04:39.case again, he said they were unaffordable. First, reform is
:04:39. > :04:44.essential, because we just cannot go on as we are. That's not because
:04:44. > :04:47.as some people say, public service pensions are ridiculously generous.
:04:47. > :04:53.In fact, around half of public service pensioners receive less
:04:53. > :04:58.than �6,000 a year. No, the reason we can't go on as we are, is
:04:58. > :05:06.because as the babyboomers retire, and thankfully, live longer, the
:05:06. > :05:09.pensions system is in danger of going broke. But is this true? Well
:05:09. > :05:18.according to Lord Hutton's public review, the cost of public sector
:05:18. > :05:23.pensions as a proportion of GDP is falling from 1.9% to 1.4% by 2060.
:05:23. > :05:27.This fall is partly only achieved by adapting one of the measures
:05:27. > :05:30.that these people are protesting about, but the other one, the
:05:30. > :05:34.increase in contributions they are being asking to make will cause the
:05:34. > :05:38.graph to fall even more. Why is the Government reforming pensions? One
:05:38. > :05:43.reason is fairness. Another is suggested by the terms of reference
:05:43. > :05:53.that the Government gave the independent pensions commission. It
:05:53. > :05:57.
:05:57. > :06:01.In other words, it sees the relative generosity of public
:06:01. > :06:05.sector pensions as a problem in encouraging private sector
:06:05. > :06:09.providers in health and education. Meanwhile, for the Labour leader,
:06:09. > :06:14.Ed Miliband, there is a big problem. He can't openly disown the unions,
:06:14. > :06:18.nor can he fully support the strikes. Instead, he attacks the
:06:18. > :06:22.Government. These strikes are wrong, at a time when negotiations are
:06:22. > :06:25.still going on. But parents and the public have been let down by both
:06:25. > :06:29.sides because the Government has acted in a reckless and provocative
:06:29. > :06:34.manner. He was obviously very pleased with that line, either that
:06:34. > :06:38.or he didn't want to risk saying anything else. The Government has
:06:38. > :06:44.acted in a reckless and provocative manner. The Government has acted in
:06:44. > :06:49.a reckless and provocative manner. Parents and governors have been let
:06:49. > :06:53.down by both sides because the Government has acted in a reckless
:06:53. > :06:56.and provocative manner! Other public sector unions were on strike
:06:56. > :07:01.today, it is the teachers' action that the Government knows will have
:07:01. > :07:05.the most impact on family life. Ministers were desperate to keep
:07:05. > :07:08.schools open. The question is, of course, how many teachers have gone
:07:08. > :07:11.to work as normal today. As of lunchtime the Department for
:07:11. > :07:16.Education has given us these statistics, about quarter of
:07:16. > :07:19.schools, they say, are closed. Another quarter partially open,-
:07:19. > :07:23.and-a-quarter open. The remainder, they don't know about yet. We have
:07:23. > :07:27.to remember, of course, that one of the really big teachers' unions
:07:27. > :07:31.isn't taking industrial action today.
:07:31. > :07:39.The Education Secretary, Michael Gove, was in one open school, if
:07:39. > :07:45.the kids there had missed out on day off, at least they could share
:07:45. > :07:50.an anecdote about his breakfast. had Cherrios for breakfast with my
:07:50. > :07:55.children, normally I have toast, but I needed extra energy today, so
:07:55. > :07:58.I had two bowls. Two bowls but one message? I feel disappointed people
:07:58. > :08:01.have decided to go out on strike today. I understand there are
:08:01. > :08:05.strong feelings about pensions, we want to ensure that everyone in the
:08:05. > :08:10.public sector, especially teachers, have decent pension, but I don't
:08:11. > :08:14.think it is a good idea to have gone out on strike today. With an
:08:14. > :08:18.aftermarch pint and a quick scrub for the streets, London gets back
:08:18. > :08:21.to normal. The question of public sector pensions is still far from
:08:21. > :08:27.tidy. I'm joined by the Treasury minister,
:08:27. > :08:32.Justine Greening, Labour would not put up a single frontbencher or
:08:32. > :08:41.backbencher, make what that - of that what you will. We are
:08:41. > :08:44.delighted to have Kitty Usher, from formally from the think-tank dem
:08:44. > :08:51.moss. David Cameron says pension teams
:08:51. > :08:55.are in danger of going bust, there is no evidence for that? Lord
:08:55. > :09:00.Hutton did report over this year and last year. His analysis is the
:09:00. > :09:02.current system is untenable. The reason he said that was when he
:09:02. > :09:06.looked at how public sector pensions were going to be
:09:06. > :09:10.affordable and sustainable over the next 50 years, he said there was a
:09:10. > :09:13.real risk they wouldn't be. That is why we needed to reform them. That
:09:13. > :09:17.is why we are talking with the unions about doing that now. David
:09:17. > :09:21.Cameron, let's be clear, was wrong to say the pension schemes are in
:09:21. > :09:25.danger of going broke. Nobody said that. I read the Hutton Report,
:09:25. > :09:29.nothing there suggests that? look at what has happened with
:09:29. > :09:33.public sector pensions in terms of what they cost the taxpayer in the
:09:33. > :09:39.last decade, they have risen by a third. It is percentage terms in
:09:39. > :09:45.terms of GDP, they would be falling from 1.9 to 1.4, in real terms,
:09:45. > :09:48.pensions in the future will cost less? As your earlier package
:09:48. > :09:52.pointed out, one of the reasons that is happening is the current
:09:52. > :09:57.reforms that we are talking about unions about how to implement now.
:09:57. > :10:01.These are very, difficult issues we have to sort out. For many people
:10:01. > :10:04.watching this in the private sector and had to go through it with their
:10:04. > :10:08.own companies, they know it is difficult too. We need to find a
:10:08. > :10:13.route that is fair by public sector workers, in making sure they have
:10:13. > :10:17.extremely good pension, but it is also fair by the taxpayer who is
:10:17. > :10:21.paying it. We will come on to the private-public sector split in a
:10:21. > :10:24.moment. Let's unpick what you said there. In terms of reform, what you
:10:24. > :10:29.are saying is what the Hutton Report recommended was based on,
:10:29. > :10:32.for example, CPI, but actually pensions would rise in line with
:10:32. > :10:37.the consumer price index, rather than the retail price index. He
:10:37. > :10:42.went on to say that, given that, these pensions, as they stand,
:10:42. > :10:46.would be affordable. Nowhere in the Hutton Report, at all, does he talk
:10:46. > :10:51.about the need for increased contributions to make it affordable.
:10:51. > :10:56.If the CPI is carried out, as a measure, that will be enough,
:10:56. > :10:59.nowhere at all does he talk about having to increase pension
:10:59. > :11:04.contributions, in order to reach the scheme that you want to reach?
:11:04. > :11:08.That is not actually correct, cirsity. In fact f you look at -
:11:08. > :11:12.Kirsty, in fact, if you look at what analysis went into the graph
:11:12. > :11:18.you showed earlier. No big increase in public sector contributions?
:11:18. > :11:24.you let me finish. It did have two element, one was the CPI and RPI
:11:24. > :11:28.shift, the other was also another piece that was going to be
:11:28. > :11:31.delivered by public sector pension reform. In fact, it was something
:11:31. > :11:36.the previous Government had also started looking at, prior to
:11:36. > :11:39.leaving office. That was all about trying to tackle this issue that
:11:39. > :11:46.the taxpayer couldn't be simply expected to keep on funding extra
:11:46. > :11:50.and extra requirements as people live longer. His graphs do not show
:11:50. > :11:53.that any big increase in public sector contributions to pensions
:11:53. > :11:58.are necessary, to reach affordability in the new scheme.
:11:58. > :12:02.The CPI, yes. And some increase, but not the big increases you are
:12:02. > :12:06.asking for at the moment? I think families who are paying an awful
:12:06. > :12:10.lot more to fund public sector pensions already will say actually
:12:10. > :12:13.there is issue...This Is really important? If I can finish
:12:13. > :12:18.answering one of your questions. You have answered that point, but
:12:18. > :12:21.what you are really talking about, isn't t you are dressing it up by
:12:21. > :12:25.saying that actually the Hutton independent commission really did
:12:25. > :12:29.want large increases, though it didn't say so. What you are
:12:29. > :12:32.actually talking about is not affordability, what you are talking
:12:32. > :12:35.about, and reasonably, is fairness? We're talking about a number of
:12:35. > :12:40.things. We are talking about making sure public sector pensions in the
:12:40. > :12:44.long-term are sustainable. That means, having public sector
:12:44. > :12:48.pensions that are fair by public sector workers, and will still be
:12:48. > :12:53.incredible strong pensions for them. But are also fair by tax-payers.
:12:53. > :12:57.There will be many people in their 30-somethings, watching this, this
:12:57. > :13:01.evening, who are problems even paying for their own pension, let
:13:01. > :13:04.alone anybody elses. What we have been doing with the unions is
:13:04. > :13:08.sitting down and talking to them about how we can strike the right
:13:08. > :13:11.balance by public sector workers and the rest of the tax-payers. The
:13:11. > :13:15.other point that Lord Hutton made, of course, he looked at that graph,
:13:15. > :13:19.what he said, first of all he said let's bear in mind we are
:13:19. > :13:23.projecting out 50 years here, there is some unreliability around the
:13:23. > :13:26.figures. Also, is it right to make a 50-year bet on whether these
:13:26. > :13:31.pension schemes are going to be sustainable. That is what he said,
:13:31. > :13:34.I think he's right. That is why we are better off, not putting our
:13:34. > :13:36.heads in the sand and pretending it will be fine. It is better to be
:13:36. > :13:41.responsible as a Government and working with the unions to find a
:13:41. > :13:47.real solution to this now. You may say that you have to have these
:13:47. > :13:51.large increase, but actually, nowhere, in Hutton, in the
:13:51. > :13:54.independent commission, did it say we needed large increases. Is it
:13:54. > :13:58.not the case in the terms of reference of the whole commission
:13:58. > :14:02.is the truth of it. Ideolgically, perfectly reason for the
:14:02. > :14:07.Conservatives to say that what he they want is to reduce the barrier
:14:07. > :14:12.for public sector work, going into private sector provision, because
:14:12. > :14:15.if pensions rise the increase will not be afforded if these jobs went
:14:15. > :14:20.to the private sector providers. That is what it is about? I don't
:14:20. > :14:24.think you are right. If that was the case...Why Not, it says clearly
:14:24. > :14:30.that is one of the aims that you had for the commission, perfectly
:14:30. > :14:33.reasonably? And one of the reasons that was one of our parts of what
:14:33. > :14:37.we wanted Lord Hutton to look at, because that was common sense. The
:14:37. > :14:40.point was about to make before you went into your next question was
:14:40. > :14:44.this cross-party consensus, really, that we need public sector reform
:14:44. > :14:47.and the question is making sure we can do it in fair way for everybody.
:14:47. > :14:51.That is what we want to sit down with the unions and sort out. What
:14:51. > :14:54.I would say is let's distinguish between that genuine problem, and
:14:54. > :14:58.then the second issue, which is whether the strikes we have had
:14:58. > :15:02.today will help us sort that out, and the answer is they are not.
:15:02. > :15:06.Let's raise that last point by Justine Greening, what you have
:15:06. > :15:09.done today helps not one jot? have been driven to what we have
:15:09. > :15:14.done today. We have never taken strike action for 127 years. I just
:15:14. > :15:17.have to comment on three things that Justine has said. What she has
:15:17. > :15:20.really laid bare and you have laid bare in the questioning is the
:15:20. > :15:23.complete dogs dinner of the Government's approach to this
:15:23. > :15:26.problem. We have David Cameron saying, and he did say, public
:15:26. > :15:31.service pensions are in danger of going broke, it is clear they are
:15:31. > :15:34.not. Then we had Michael Gove in the House on the same day saying,
:15:34. > :15:41.we need to reform public sector pensions because of the deficit,
:15:41. > :15:44.and the mess that Labour left the country in. Then we have the other
:15:44. > :15:49.ministers saying it has to be about longevity. They haven't got their
:15:49. > :15:56.ducks in a row about this. Let's be clear what Justine Greening is also
:15:56. > :16:01.saying, is you could have a private sector job, and a public sector job
:16:01. > :16:06.of roughly comparable salaries. Let's have an example, your driving
:16:06. > :16:11.instructor is a private sector, he has his own company, he earns a
:16:11. > :16:18.salary, your public sector workers earns the same, why should the
:16:18. > :16:24.examiner have 14% greater pension pot than - why should the examiner
:16:24. > :16:28.have the 14% greater pension pot than the private workers. Public
:16:28. > :16:33.sector work remembers paying contributions to their pensions.
:16:33. > :16:37.pays through his taxation? Public sector workers also pay taxes and
:16:37. > :16:41.contributions. We pay our taxes and contributions. Just let's deal with
:16:41. > :16:45.the issue of longevity, I have heard so much nonsense about this
:16:45. > :16:49.for so long. If teachers live longer then we have agreed, in the
:16:49. > :16:53.changes we made in 2007, that if there is extra contributions to be
:16:53. > :17:02.made for us living longer, we will pay them out of our wages. Kitty
:17:02. > :17:07.Usher, I'm not expecting you to be an apologyist for the Labour party
:17:07. > :17:10.who haven't got their ducks in a row either. What is the dilemma,
:17:10. > :17:13.unions striking today weren't affiliated, which is why Ed
:17:13. > :17:17.Miliband felt safer in making the criticism about it. What is Labour
:17:17. > :17:21.to do? I think the issue here is trade unions are fantastic, they
:17:22. > :17:24.have a really strong role to play in 21st century Britain, and
:17:25. > :17:29.everyone should join a trade union. There is nothing about being a
:17:29. > :17:32.trade unionist that means you necessarily have to be part of the
:17:32. > :17:37.Labour movement. Although I welcome the fact that they are part of the
:17:37. > :17:41.family. Was Ed Miliband right to criticise them for coming out on
:17:41. > :17:47.strike today? In the place he was in he had a choice of either
:17:47. > :17:52.looking like Red Ed, or being slightly more pragmatic.
:17:52. > :17:56.I think he did exactly the right thing. Do you think he was between
:17:56. > :18:00.a rock and hard place. The problem the Labour opposition don't oppose,
:18:00. > :18:04.they are mourning from being in Government. You say his remarks
:18:05. > :18:07.were disgraceful? To say nothing about public sector pensions and
:18:08. > :18:12.the negotiations up until about three days ago, and then to say the
:18:12. > :18:16.strike is a mistake. Then to invite a Labour leader of the opposition
:18:16. > :18:20.to advise people to go across picket lines, that is a disgrace.
:18:20. > :18:23.Trade unionism shouldn't just be about the labour Government, at
:18:23. > :18:27.Demos we are doing a Conservative project, looking at the role trade
:18:28. > :18:31.unions can play in supporting the Big Society, we need to understand
:18:31. > :18:35.they have a wider role, it doesn't need to be party political. The
:18:35. > :18:39.reason why Ed was right is that the real negotiating power that the
:18:39. > :18:43.unions have is over the timing of all of this. It is quite possible
:18:43. > :18:47.to have a long-term settlement about reforminging public sector
:18:47. > :18:52.pensions, that remove the break with final salary schemes, which is
:18:52. > :18:58.a good idea, having an average salary scheme, which supports lower
:18:58. > :19:02.paid people, and making sure we are able to get a better return for the
:19:02. > :19:06.taxpayer. It is an unfunded scheme, future generations pay. The problem
:19:06. > :19:10.is the Government is trying to score it in the next couple of
:19:10. > :19:14.years on the fiscal books to meet the cuts agenda. That is what you
:19:14. > :19:18.should be negotiated. That message hasn't come through with the strike.
:19:18. > :19:22.Part of the reason Ed Miliband said he wasn't supporting action is
:19:22. > :19:25.because negotiations are continuing. Here you both are, I'm not
:19:25. > :19:29.expecting a resolution on Newsnight, are you prepared to move on the
:19:29. > :19:34.level of increase and indeed the principle of increase? We have been
:19:34. > :19:37.in discussions with the unions for some time now, I think it is worth
:19:37. > :19:45.pointing out that although some unions were on strike today, there
:19:45. > :19:52.were an awful lot, including major ones like GMB, in fact, under half
:19:52. > :19:55.of the PCS unions were on strike too. We are prepared to continue
:19:55. > :20:00.having constructive talks with the unions, difficult issues, but we
:20:00. > :20:06.are convinced we can sit down and work together. I would say, at the
:20:06. > :20:10.end of the day, the strikes don't change what we have to do, what
:20:10. > :20:13.they Diamonds Will Do is make it harder for parents - do do is make
:20:13. > :20:18.it harder for parents to go out to work when they are looking after
:20:18. > :20:21.their children. We need to focus our energy and efforts on trying to
:20:21. > :20:25.find a solution to a difficult problem. I'm happy to negotiate,
:20:25. > :20:28.let me negotiate on these things, let me negotiate about the pension
:20:28. > :20:31.contribution increase, let me negotiate about the rise in the
:20:31. > :20:35.retirement age, let me negotiate about the move from final salary to
:20:35. > :20:39.career average, first of all, give me information. Give me the
:20:39. > :20:43.information, and give us the time to negotiate properly, don't say on
:20:44. > :20:48.all the key issues we are not going to negotiate.
:20:48. > :20:52.The Department of Education said that the strike action affected
:20:53. > :20:58.11,000 of the schools in England and Wales, of that number nearly
:20:58. > :21:04.6,000 shut entirely. And in a knock-on effect as parents
:21:04. > :21:08.scrambled to find childcare or had to take a day off work. There was
:21:08. > :21:13.schools where some teachers worked and some didn't. We went to
:21:13. > :21:18.Dartford to see how one school was affected. In a moment we will speak
:21:18. > :21:22.to a headteacher who worked and his too mucher who went on strike.
:21:22. > :21:25.- teacher who went on strike. While thousands of children are off
:21:25. > :21:31.school, these ones are having toast and jam at the school breakfast
:21:31. > :21:34.club, just like they always. Do only one teacher is striking here
:21:34. > :21:38.at OKfield Primary School, which is great news for these kids, they
:21:38. > :21:42.claimed they didn't want to have a day off any way. The teachers
:21:42. > :21:47.decided to come in and get us education. What do you think?
:21:47. > :21:52.Brilliant, excellent. My nan is always frustrated about it on the
:21:52. > :21:55.news, shouting on the telly about the cuts, she says it is bad for
:21:55. > :21:59.children, it should be kept open because of their education. They
:21:59. > :22:02.need it when they are older. This is not one of Kent's very best
:22:02. > :22:09.performing schools, they have had their fair share of problems in the
:22:09. > :22:14.past. They say they are improving year-on-year, the headteacher says
:22:14. > :22:19.to strike here at OKfield would fly in the face of everything they have
:22:19. > :22:24.achieved. Garry Ratcliffe is trying hard to turn around his school's
:22:24. > :22:30.fortunes, attendance is a huge issue here. This week alone he
:22:30. > :22:34.issued fines to six parents who kept their children out of school.
:22:34. > :22:36.To close the school for Daewoo send the wrong message to parents and
:22:36. > :22:42.children. At the same time I have to be clear that I would support
:22:42. > :22:46.any member of staff, any teacher in the unions that are striking.
:22:46. > :22:50.It is a very young work force here, which could explain the general
:22:50. > :22:53.apathy towards industrial action. This is a generation that hasn't
:22:53. > :22:59.grown up with a powerful trade union movement, and a generation
:22:59. > :23:02.that can ill afford to lose a day's wages. I look at the students,
:23:02. > :23:06.everything that happened there, that was chaos, have they changed
:23:06. > :23:14.the decision, no they haven't. We could go in our masses, and we
:23:14. > :23:19.could strike, and scream and shout, but, you know, it doesn't matter
:23:19. > :23:22.what we are going to do, they will make the decisions. What will make
:23:22. > :23:26.the Government listen? If every teacher would go on strike, perhaps
:23:26. > :23:34.they would start to listen, who knows. What made one teacher break
:23:34. > :23:36.rank and go on strike the? It goes towards proect iting the
:23:36. > :23:41.integrity of the teaching profession. We want to traict the
:23:41. > :23:45.best people to teaching. We want to - attract the best people to
:23:45. > :23:49.teaching and keep experienced teachers in the profession. I know
:23:49. > :23:54.it is hard for parents and I do feel sympathy for them, I hope they
:23:54. > :23:58.understand. He might be a lone voice at the school. But across the
:23:58. > :24:04.rest of Kent 200 schools were caught up in the strikes. This is
:24:04. > :24:07.Chatham, the teachers here aren't quite as resigned to the status quo
:24:07. > :24:12.as in Dartford, they are undeterred by colleagues who aren't on strike,
:24:12. > :24:16.they say it is just the beginning. The lesson I'm giving my students
:24:16. > :24:19.today is the best I could give this year, I don't have to be there.
:24:19. > :24:22.About 100 people came to the Hustings, this man says it is a
:24:22. > :24:26.good turnout. What about the thousand who is chose to stay in
:24:26. > :24:29.the classroom. We have a lot of young teachers in the profession
:24:29. > :24:31.these days, for them this is something entirely new, they are
:24:31. > :24:36.not familiar with this kind of thing. They are not familiar with
:24:36. > :24:44.the arguments we are making, they are very dedkaited, often their
:24:44. > :24:48.heads are down, - dedicated, they have heads down and into their work.
:24:48. > :24:51.Hopefully we can convince them of the merits of the case and we will
:24:51. > :24:55.see more people supporting the strike next time. They haven't
:24:55. > :24:58.convinced all the parents. I have two children at school, one at
:24:58. > :25:02.secondary and one at junior, both schools have closed, I have had to
:25:02. > :25:06.take the day off. It is annoying, I won't get paid. It is wrong, they
:25:06. > :25:10.know their pay and pensions and really they are lucky to have work
:25:10. > :25:15.at the moment. Although it has inconvienced me for the day, I
:25:15. > :25:19.fully accept it, I fully agree with what they are doing. There is
:25:19. > :25:23.definitely sympathy out there for the teachers, but this is, afterall,
:25:23. > :25:29.a one-day strike, if there are many more like it, the question remains,
:25:29. > :25:33.how long will the sympathy last. Joining me now are two of the
:25:33. > :25:37.teachers from OKfield Primary School, the headteacher, Garry
:25:37. > :25:41.Ratcliffe, who didn't strike, and the year three teacher, Richard
:25:41. > :25:47.Moore, who did. Garry Ratcliffe, was there any doubt in your mind as
:25:47. > :25:50.to whether you should strike? doubt. I'm a member of the NAHT,
:25:50. > :25:56.that wasn't striking today any way. When I joined the profession and
:25:56. > :25:59.when I became a head, I made assurances to my governors and my
:25:59. > :26:03.parent body, and my colleagues, my teachers that the children would
:26:03. > :26:08.always come first. There are plenty of reasons for being in a union, so
:26:08. > :26:13.right at the very beginning, when you joined the union, it was on the
:26:13. > :26:18.basis that you would never take strike action? Absolutely, for me I
:26:18. > :26:21.really feel passionate that we should keep the school open for the
:26:21. > :26:25.children and our community. Doesn't that let down some of your
:26:25. > :26:30.colleagues, who are perhaps not in the position of headteacher, whose
:26:30. > :26:33.salaries are much lower than your's, and who face, as it stands, the
:26:33. > :26:39.possibility that they will be paying much higher pension
:26:39. > :26:42.contributions and having a stand still pay? I do sympathise with all
:26:42. > :26:46.teachers, as I discussed with my colleagues today, I'm paying a
:26:46. > :26:50.pension as well, my contributions would be going up as well. I would
:26:50. > :26:54.support any teacher in my school going out on strike. In the end you
:26:54. > :26:57.were the only teacher in the school that went out on strike, what was
:26:57. > :27:00.the conversation with your colleagues like? I spoke to a lot
:27:00. > :27:04.of colleagues about going on strike and gave my reasons for them. We
:27:04. > :27:07.have a friendly staff in the school, and there was no animosity or any
:27:07. > :27:10.debate about whether we should go on strike. I firmly believe the
:27:10. > :27:14.people who work at the school are educated people themselves, they
:27:14. > :27:17.have read all about it, they know the issues, it was their choice to
:27:17. > :27:22.go on strike or not. It was my choice to go on strike. What was
:27:22. > :27:25.the tipping point for you? tipping point was generally the
:27:25. > :27:28.Government's intransigence, they didn't seem to want to negotiate on
:27:28. > :27:31.any of the key issues, I feel a little bit let down by a Government,
:27:31. > :27:35.an elected Government that doesn't seem to want to negotiate. I
:27:35. > :27:38.believe they have made the decisions as to what's going to
:27:38. > :27:42.happen with the teachers' pensions, there is no negotiation with it.
:27:42. > :27:46.From what I have been reading and have heard, the only discussion is
:27:46. > :27:49.how it will be implemented, I don't think that is fair. You are coming
:27:50. > :27:53.towards the end of term, it is possible strike action if there
:27:53. > :27:55.isn't a resolution might continue in autumn, would you come out
:27:55. > :28:01.again? That depends heavily on the Government's position. I think
:28:01. > :28:04.between now and then, I do think there are issues with the pension
:28:04. > :28:08.scheme that need to be resolved, I think the Government need to talk
:28:08. > :28:12.to the teaching body about those things. If there was action in the
:28:12. > :28:16.autumn and the Government positions hadn't changed and they were still
:28:16. > :28:20.in this position of not changing, I would vote for a strike, yes. Again,
:28:20. > :28:24.it is a very, very difficult decision to go on strike. You are
:28:24. > :28:27.now in a school which has been turned round, I think, by your own
:28:27. > :28:32.endeavours and the endeavours of your teachers, you are presumably
:28:32. > :28:36.held in higher regard by the parents, do you think more broadly
:28:36. > :28:41.there will be an issue if striking teachers are seen out on the
:28:41. > :28:45.streets? Our parents are very supportive of the whole teaching
:28:45. > :28:51.body, and I think they would listen to the teachers, I think they would
:28:51. > :28:56.sympathise, I think even within our own parent body there is a wide
:28:56. > :28:59.variety of opinion already, some fully supportive of teachers going
:28:59. > :29:04.on strike, and some saying thank you for keeping the school open.
:29:04. > :29:10.More broadly, the profession itself, if it was prolonged action, might
:29:10. > :29:18.be called into disrepute? No. is interesting, if it don't be and
:29:18. > :29:22.if you see as intransigence in the Government, as you would see it,
:29:22. > :29:24.coming towards the autumn and teachers becoming more
:29:24. > :29:28.disillusioned, would you see it as something you would support?
:29:28. > :29:31.support it already. But not take part in it? I won't take part in it.
:29:31. > :29:37.Is there a danger you are undermining your position? I'm not
:29:37. > :29:41.undermining their position, I will support Richard and any other
:29:41. > :29:44.teacher that decides to strike, we have a fantastic teaching staff
:29:44. > :29:48.working together for the good of the community, if three, five, ten
:29:48. > :29:52.of them want to strike. I will examine the position of the school
:29:52. > :29:55.each time there is industrial action.
:29:55. > :30:00.We discussed the political implications of the strike in a few
:30:01. > :30:06.minutes with our political panel. First, in Syria, opposition leaders
:30:06. > :30:13.have set up a National Coordination Committee, uniting figures inside
:30:13. > :30:19.the country and those outside. The unrest is entering the next four
:30:19. > :30:23.months, the opposition looks like it is being successful in
:30:23. > :30:27.controlling four cities. Sue Lloyd Roberts, has been undercover, and
:30:27. > :30:33.explains how co-operation between activists inside and outside the
:30:33. > :30:39.country have helped keep the revolution alive. This report
:30:39. > :30:43.contains graphic images. Pictures show clashes between
:30:43. > :30:49.protestors and security forces and there have been more deaths. This
:30:49. > :30:52.is going on in Syria for weeks now. We received these pictures on
:30:52. > :30:56.YouTube within hours of it taking place. It is a sign the opposition
:30:56. > :31:01.is getting better organised, and the skill of those who are
:31:01. > :31:08.literally advertising this uprising. TRANSLATION: Demonstrations started
:31:08. > :31:14.when people saw what happened in Deraa and ban yos. People saw the
:31:14. > :31:20.videos that were uploaded, this is just a small part. Perhaps 5% of
:31:20. > :31:25.what is really happening in Syria. What's happening in Syria is much
:31:25. > :31:30.more terrifying. The first time they responded by firing at us. The
:31:30. > :31:36.security forces provoked the protestors, they took up firing
:31:36. > :31:43.positions, they pointed their guns at the protestors. Some of the
:31:43. > :31:46.young men bared their chests and said if you are a man, fire.
:31:46. > :31:52.They faced them with their chests bared, they are not worth more than
:31:52. > :31:57.the people of Tehran. We shall die as they died. We are seekers of
:31:57. > :32:03.freedom. The protest and the coverage
:32:03. > :32:11.require co-ordination. In the capital, Damascus, must taf FA
:32:11. > :32:14.shows how they - Mustafa shows how they share it between the
:32:14. > :32:18.protestors. They are the co- ordinators and advocates who
:32:18. > :32:21.promote what they are doing on the ground. Sometimes I go and monitor
:32:21. > :32:29.the protests, for example, driving my car to go there, and I just
:32:29. > :32:33.watch myself what is going on there. Then I report this to some of the
:32:33. > :32:39.news agencies or channels, I would publish everything I see,
:32:39. > :32:43.everything I get on a page I'm running on Facebook, it is called
:32:43. > :32:47."monitoring protests in Syria". Many of the early activists were
:32:47. > :32:53.known to the authorities. They had to flee to neighbouring Lebanon, to
:32:53. > :32:58.join a growing number of Syrian exiles who work as advocates abroad.
:32:58. > :33:08.Like these two, who now upload the material as it arrives from Syria,
:33:08. > :33:34.
:33:34. > :33:39.check it, and vitally, distribute He then contacts journalists and
:33:39. > :33:49.human rights organisations with the latest news on fatalities, and who
:33:49. > :34:28.
:34:28. > :34:37.From shaky beginnings, the pictures and the coverage have become faster,
:34:37. > :34:42.and more daring. Spreading the information, and the uprising. In
:34:42. > :34:46.the beginning, in Deraa, people were only asking for reform. The
:34:46. > :34:49.brutal response to modest demands, and the images, widely distributed,
:34:49. > :34:55.has seen the uprising spread throughout the country, with the
:34:55. > :34:59.call for the end of the regime. Media watchers of an older
:34:59. > :35:06.generation in Syria called it nothing less than a political and
:35:06. > :35:12.reporting revolution. TRANSLATION: Professional journalists who work
:35:12. > :35:17.in the field here, suffer huge restrictions and an inability to
:35:17. > :35:21.move and communicate freely. We believe these young people, who I
:35:21. > :35:25.call citizen journalist, have changed that fact. They have set
:35:25. > :35:35.information free, they have spread it and erased the silence imposed
:35:35. > :35:37.
:35:37. > :35:43.Recently there has been a discernable change in the pictures
:35:43. > :35:47.coming out. It shows demonstrators gaining in confidence, an almost
:35:48. > :35:52.carnival atmosphere. It is too early to conclude that the tide is
:35:52. > :35:56.turning in favour of the protestors. But it does appear that Government
:35:57. > :36:00.troops are overstretched. It could be that there are now so many
:36:00. > :36:06.demonstrations, that they haven't got the means to respond to them
:36:06. > :36:10.all with guns. Sue Lloyd Roberts. We return to
:36:10. > :36:14.today's strike action, discussed with our regular panel of political
:36:14. > :36:18.insiders how they think it will all play out. First, banner-waving
:36:18. > :36:26.strikers, marching in the streets, chants, rallies, all of an echo of
:36:26. > :36:36.a not so distant time, when struggle and strive were part -
:36:36. > :36:39.
:36:39. > :36:43.strike were part of a not too Back in 1974, strikes by dockers
:36:43. > :36:47.and miners had an impact on the whole population. There were power
:36:47. > :36:50.cuts and a three-day week. It also brought down the Conservative
:36:50. > :36:54.Government. Perhaps it wasn't such a great idea for Edward Heath to go
:36:54. > :36:56.to the country asking who governs Britain. The answer came back, not
:36:56. > :37:01.you. Labour claimed to have a better
:37:01. > :37:07.relationship with the unions, but attempts to strike a deal over pay
:37:07. > :37:13.collapsed, leading to the "Winter of Discontent" in 1978. Waves of
:37:13. > :37:17.strikes by lorry drivers, refuse collectors and grave diggers, left
:37:17. > :37:20.rubbish on the streets and bodies unburied, and led to the defeat of
:37:20. > :37:25.the Callaghan Government the next year. Don't run down your country
:37:25. > :37:29.by talking about mounting chaos. Margaret Thatcher promised a fresh
:37:29. > :37:34.start, and union reform. Where there is discord, may we bring
:37:34. > :37:38.harmony. But five years later another strike
:37:38. > :37:43.by miners pitched the Government into a year-long battle with the
:37:43. > :37:46.union. This time Arthur Scargill was the loser.
:37:46. > :37:52.Industrial action after Tony Blair came to power returned, but it
:37:52. > :37:57.caused little disruption compared with the disputes of the 70s and
:37:57. > :38:03.80s. Union membership has halved since 1979, it is doubtful the
:38:03. > :38:08.disruption could ever rocket to 70s' levels again, but how high are
:38:08. > :38:14.the stakes as Britain faces the prospect of large scale disruption
:38:14. > :38:20.and unrest for the first time in years. I'm joined by Finkelstein,
:38:20. > :38:22.from the Times, formerly an aide, and Deborah Mattinson from Britain
:38:22. > :38:27.Thinks, almost a former pollster to Gordon Brown.
:38:28. > :38:31.First of all, let's quickly deal with Ed Miliband's position today?
:38:31. > :38:36.It's a nightmare for an opposition, an unpredictable issue. I really
:38:37. > :38:41.feel for him. If he goes against it, and then the strikes turn out to be
:38:41. > :38:44.a real success, he has obviously opposed his own members in their
:38:45. > :38:52.successful action. If he goes with it and the Government don't go with
:38:52. > :38:58.him, he will end up looking like someone who request run the country.
:38:58. > :39:01.The one thing he can't do, and I'm afraid he has done, is not choose.
:39:01. > :39:04.You can't say strikes are wrong because they are still negotiating,
:39:04. > :39:07.you either think they are right because of the issue or they are
:39:07. > :39:11.wrong. He has to choose. Even though I'm sympathetic to him
:39:11. > :39:17.because it is difficult to choose and correctly, politically that is.
:39:17. > :39:20.Do you agree? I certainly agree, if there is one job that is worse
:39:20. > :39:23.being a leader of the opposition, is a Labour leader of the
:39:24. > :39:30.opposition with an industrial dispute. Especially if you are one
:39:30. > :39:35.criticised for being in the pockets of the union. None of these are
:39:35. > :39:40.affiliated? Absolutely, I think he was very mindful of the Red Ed
:39:40. > :39:44.tag's crafted his words. I agree with Danny, he ended up dancing on
:39:44. > :39:48.the head of a pin. And not, actually, putting out a clear
:39:48. > :39:53.position, not really saying where he stood. I think you have to be
:39:53. > :39:58.very true at this point to what you fundamentally believe. My suspicion
:39:58. > :40:01.is that he supports the strikes, but he feels that it's politically
:40:01. > :40:06.untenable. Whether or not that is the case, that is what people will
:40:06. > :40:10.think. That is what people will think. Therefore, it smax of a kind
:40:10. > :40:13.of slight - smacks of a kind of slight lack of truthfulness. But he
:40:13. > :40:16.is in an incredibly difficult position. For once what we are
:40:16. > :40:19.having from the Labour Party is a sense that it is complex and there
:40:19. > :40:23.is no simple answer. For the last seven months what we have heard
:40:23. > :40:27.from the Labour Party is it is incredibly simple, don't do this,
:40:27. > :40:30.don't do that. This, at least, is the Labour Party saying this issue
:40:30. > :40:35.is complicated. The Labour Party might be saying this issue is
:40:35. > :40:38.complicated, but nobody is actually prepared to come and say, this is a
:40:38. > :40:42.complicated issue? Having said that, this is also an opportunity, he
:40:42. > :40:45.could say I'm my own man, not guided by the trade union, I will
:40:45. > :40:50.be clear, independent and decisive, and come out against the strikes,
:40:50. > :40:53.and come out against the demand, which are, effectively, a sectional
:40:53. > :40:58.demand against the community interest. There is a sense at the
:40:58. > :41:01.moment he's sitting on the fence, he with do that or the other way.
:41:01. > :41:05.What would Tony Blair have done? think Tony Blair would have handled
:41:05. > :41:09.it very differently. I think Tony Blair probably would have been
:41:09. > :41:12.critical of the unions, and possibly been able to do that with
:41:12. > :41:16.more conviction. I think there is a slightly different point to make
:41:16. > :41:20.here, actually. I think the missed opportunity, I don't know if it
:41:20. > :41:24.will be missed forever, but at the moment, is the opportunity for Ed
:41:24. > :41:29.Miliband to present Labour as the party that stands up for great
:41:29. > :41:34.public services, and to frame what's happening now in this that
:41:34. > :41:39.context, that is not happening. you have written today, that this
:41:39. > :41:42.is actually a possible disaster, really, for the coalition? I just
:41:42. > :41:46.objected to the idea, that because Margaret Thatcher defeated the
:41:46. > :41:50.miners, that all Government also now defeat unions. Historically
:41:50. > :41:53.that hasn't been the case. There is every reason to think that if the
:41:53. > :41:57.teachers manage to go out over and over again, people will decide that
:41:57. > :42:01.they can't put up with the nuisance and wonder why the Government
:42:01. > :42:04.hasn't settled. Apart from my own view, I robustly think the
:42:04. > :42:09.Government is correct on this. Looking at it politically it could
:42:09. > :42:15.happen like that. It ends up being a battle for the survival between
:42:15. > :42:19.the unions and the coalition. It is pretty apocalyptic? The unions will
:42:19. > :42:23.behave in a national cirriculum will make people say why are they
:42:23. > :42:27.behave - in a fashion that will make people say they are behaving
:42:27. > :42:31.that way they must have a point. With trade unions, in terms of the
:42:31. > :42:36.pensions issue, right now, people are broadly on the unions' side,
:42:36. > :42:41.rather than the Government's side. The language that this has been
:42:41. > :42:44.couched in today, and we should just talk about this for a minute.
:42:44. > :42:50.This language, this reluctance of Justine Greening to say, yes it is
:42:50. > :42:54.about fairness, we want to be able to put public sector work out to
:42:54. > :42:58.multiple providers because the danger of the pension hikes, that
:42:58. > :43:01.is perfectly reasonable position to take, they keep going on about
:43:01. > :43:05.affordability, going broke? There is an issue of affordability, David
:43:05. > :43:09.Cameron talked about the risk of going broke. That is exactly the
:43:09. > :43:13.right word "the risk" is the critical thing, the Government will
:43:13. > :43:17.pick up the downside risk. There are complicated argument about the
:43:17. > :43:19.future of pensions you could get lost in. People do understand
:43:20. > :43:23.public expenditure is too high, we have to get it down. This is part
:43:23. > :43:29.of the reason why it is too high. This is the position of the Liberal
:43:29. > :43:33.Democrats, which is last zooed to the Conservatives over this, -
:43:34. > :43:38.lasooed to the Conservatives. there is a critical danger at the
:43:38. > :43:42.moment, we have seen this with Ed Miliband's position, where there is
:43:42. > :43:45.a chasam being created between the private and public sector, what was
:43:45. > :43:49.amazing over the last two or three years, is everyone in the private
:43:49. > :43:52.sector, especially in consultancy, pursued the public opinion, because
:43:52. > :43:56.that is the way of making it through the recession. Now there
:43:57. > :44:01.are chasams opening up, they are dangerous. In a funny sort of way
:44:01. > :44:04.the coalition does well by voicing that chasam, but I think there are
:44:04. > :44:09.long-term consequences to that. Liberal Democrats, presumably have
:44:09. > :44:11.lost the public sector vote? It is very serious, who knows about it,
:44:12. > :44:15.we speculate on every programme at work, how many votes the Liberal
:44:15. > :44:17.Democrats have lost, I'm sure we will go on doing that for the next
:44:17. > :44:21.four years, within a stable coalition, which will continue for
:44:21. > :44:25.the next four years. There is a much bigger problem for the
:44:25. > :44:29.Government, made much worse by this, that people don't know what it is
:44:29. > :44:32.for, there is no overarching positive narrative, if you say to
:44:32. > :44:36.people in focus groups, what the Government is about, they say it is
:44:36. > :44:40.just about cuts, that is all they know? I think that what is
:44:40. > :44:46.happening at the moment will just reinforce that. It is a real
:44:46. > :44:50.problem. I think they do think that, agree it is a problem. On the other
:44:50. > :44:53.hand that is itself a narrative, it is a narrative lots of people can
:44:53. > :44:58.support f the Government sticks to it and doesn't move from it can win
:44:58. > :45:02.a lot of support behind it. Do you think there will also be an impact
:45:02. > :45:06.with the high street almost shutting up. Thorntons Jane Norman,
:45:06. > :45:14.shop after shop, the physical impact of the recession hitting
:45:14. > :45:17.them, thinking we have to be careful here. Thornton's isn't the
:45:17. > :45:20.only shop on the high street, but of course this is a rough period,
:45:20. > :45:26.we have discussed this a lot. You have a combination of inflation,
:45:26. > :45:30.you are keeping wages low. Of course, there is also a particular
:45:30. > :45:34.squeeze on public sector workers. lot of stuff has been taken out of
:45:34. > :45:37.the long grass, lots of issues you have to look at if you are going to
:45:37. > :45:41.set the finances in m the right direction. If it is tuition fees
:45:41. > :45:44.and long-term care for the elderly, if it is not public sector pensions,
:45:44. > :45:48.all of these have to be considered in the whole. Where is this going,
:45:48. > :45:52.do you think, will it head into the autumn, or do you think there will
:45:52. > :45:57.be a bigger stage in negotiation between now and the autumn?
:45:57. > :46:02.knows? I think that's, at the moment, the public opinion is
:46:02. > :46:07.broadly on the unions side, but unions are not great at making
:46:07. > :46:11.their case. I don't agree with that, I really don't. It does, in terms,
:46:11. > :46:16.if you ask people do they support changes to public sector pension
:46:16. > :46:19.that is are being proposed, there is a 10% lead for people saying, no,
:46:19. > :46:28.rather than yes. In terms of whether or not the union should
:46:28. > :46:31.strike then it is 50-50. She's right. If the unions don't present
:46:31. > :46:35.themselves well it may change. Negotiation is more real than some
:46:35. > :46:39.of the starker opinions on either side of the argument are making out
:46:39. > :46:44.at the moment. That's all from Newsnight tonight.
:46:44. > :46:49.There is royal fever in Canada where the Duke and Duchess of
:46:49. > :46:55.Cambridge have arrived for their overseas tour. There are will you