:00:07. > :00:09.Tonight: They hacked into the mobile phone of an abducted
:00:09. > :00:14.teenager. They deleted messages from the same phone, letting the
:00:14. > :00:16.parents hope their daughter was still alive. And then they ran an
:00:16. > :00:21.interview with those same parents, begging their dead child to come
:00:21. > :00:29.home. Tonight the News of the World is accused of some of the most
:00:29. > :00:32.odious antics in the long history of British tabloid journalism. What
:00:32. > :00:35.is the fit punishment for commoditising the death of Milly
:00:35. > :00:38.Dowler in a manner that could have interfered with a police murder
:00:38. > :00:41.investigation? We're joined by the Dowler family lawyer and the MP
:00:41. > :00:44.campaigning against News International. Also tonight, it's
:00:44. > :00:47.lasted us 300 years but what chance is there of the union between
:00:47. > :00:52.England and Scotland surviving? In Scotland they've a nationalist
:00:52. > :00:55.government promising a referendum on independence. Here we have a
:00:55. > :01:01.studio full of opinions and a poll suggesting half the English would
:01:02. > :01:06.also like a vote on staying together. A Scotsman returns to his
:01:06. > :01:08.roots to find out how strong is the appetite for divorce. And an
:01:08. > :01:18.Irishman asks if an ascending English identity will soon replace
:01:18. > :01:21.
:01:21. > :01:24.a more complex British sense of who we are. That broughtal
:01:24. > :01:27.assertiveness, people saying we have to claim a better Englishness.
:01:27. > :01:30.Reclaim that, but there is no answer to what it may mean. We'll
:01:30. > :01:40.hear from an Englishman, a Scotswoman and a British man, among
:01:40. > :01:49.For once that overworked word 'scandal' is the only appropriate
:01:49. > :01:55.one. It's one thing to break into the private phone messages of
:01:55. > :01:59.actors and celebrities, but another to allegedly interfere into the
:01:59. > :02:02.police investigation into the abduction and murder of a child.
:02:02. > :02:06.The private investigator employed by the News of the World, hacked
:02:06. > :02:11.into the mobile phone of the schoolgirl Milly Dowler while the
:02:11. > :02:16.police were searching for her. It was alleged that he deleted
:02:16. > :02:22.messages, giving the parents' hope that she was still alive. The
:02:22. > :02:26.editor of the paper was rebreb ereb, the man appointed as the Prime
:02:27. > :02:33.Minister's spin was Andy Coulson. It is hard to imagine a more
:02:33. > :02:39.serious case. 13-year-old Milly Dowler disappeared from her home in
:02:39. > :02:42.Walton on Thames in March, 2002. Her plight prompted saturation news
:02:42. > :02:45.coverage and anguished appeals from her family.
:02:45. > :02:50.Someone, somewhere, must know something.
:02:50. > :02:55.She is staying with a friend or someone that she must know, if she
:02:55. > :03:01.is please phone us and let us know. Let the police know. Any
:03:01. > :03:05.information, however small it may seem must be given to us.
:03:05. > :03:10.We need your help. There was a glimmer of hope, it
:03:10. > :03:15.seemed that Milly could have been alive as the contents of her mobile
:03:15. > :03:20.phone was changing, some messages were being deleted.
:03:20. > :03:24.Milly, darling if you are watching or listening to this, mum, dad,
:03:24. > :03:29.Gemma, granny, all of the family want you to know that we all love
:03:29. > :03:34.you and really miss you. We can't wait to have you back home with us.
:03:34. > :03:37.But the hope was misplaced. The Guardian newspaper reported this
:03:37. > :03:42.afternoon, that the News of the World had hacked Milly Dowler's
:03:43. > :03:45.phone, deleting messages to make room for new ones to obtain
:03:45. > :03:51.different quotes for stories, it seems.
:03:51. > :03:55.We at the Guardian have spoken to two separate sources who have told
:03:55. > :03:58.us independently that Scotland Yard have obtained evidence that Milly
:03:58. > :04:02.Dowler's phone was hacked by the News of the World and they are
:04:02. > :04:06.currently investigating that. They've been in touch with Surrey
:04:06. > :04:09.Police, they have taken statements from them recently, filling out the
:04:09. > :04:12.detail and that investigation continues.
:04:12. > :04:17.The police declined to comment, but if the Guardian is right, the
:04:17. > :04:21.timing is shockingly cynical. The paper went on to irview the family
:04:21. > :04:25.about their hopes and fears without mentioning the phone hacking and
:04:25. > :04:28.tampering. The editor at the News of the World
:04:28. > :04:32.of at the time that this particular episode took place is Rebekkah
:04:32. > :04:37.Brooks, who is now Rupert Murdoch's Chief Executive in the United
:04:37. > :04:39.Kingdom. News International said that this case is clearly a
:04:39. > :04:45.development of great concern and they will be conducting their own
:04:45. > :04:49.inquiries as a result. They will obviously co-operate fully -- fully
:04:49. > :04:55.with any police request. News International is close to
:04:55. > :04:58.securing final Government approval for the full takeover of BSkyB.
:04:58. > :05:02.Rebekkah Brooks is now the Chief Executive of News International.
:05:02. > :05:07.She is also a friend of the Camerons. We don't know if she knew
:05:07. > :05:12.about the Milly Dowler case, but the political dimensions to the
:05:12. > :05:16.story will add fuel to the fire. Richard Watson is with us. What
:05:16. > :05:21.have you learn bad who was in charge of this, who authorised it?
:05:21. > :05:25.This case is shocking, but it does not tell us about who knew what at
:05:25. > :05:29.News International or the News of the World. We don't know if
:05:29. > :05:33.Rebekkah Brooks knew about this Milly Dowler case, specifically,
:05:33. > :05:37.although she was the editor. I suspect that she will be under
:05:37. > :05:42.pressure to speak publicly, but it is time to look at the history of
:05:42. > :05:45.the changing sands of News International. Back in 2009, a
:05:45. > :05:49.senior Chief Executive told MPs, that it was just the Royal
:05:49. > :05:53.Correspondent who knew about the hacking and the liaisons of the
:05:53. > :05:57.private detective, but in April of this year, they were forced to
:05:57. > :06:01.mount a remarkable U-turn, issuing this rather embarrassing statement,
:06:01. > :06:06.saying: It is apparent that the inquiries have failed to uncover
:06:06. > :06:10.important evidence and acknowledged that the actions then were not
:06:10. > :06:15.sufficiently robust. I have been speaking to a source who has given
:06:15. > :06:21.a fascinating insight around the culture of phone hacking with is
:06:21. > :06:25.constructive if true. He says that some senior journalists and junior
:06:25. > :06:29.managers revelled in the title Princes of Darkness. So that all
:06:29. > :06:33.journalists who wanted to get phone hacking commissioned would have to
:06:33. > :06:36.get approval from the so-called Princes of Darkness. It is
:06:36. > :06:41.important to say that all the senior managers have denied
:06:41. > :06:45.approving this action, but if the source is correct it suggests a
:06:45. > :06:50.wider circle of knowledge than previously admitted.
:06:50. > :06:54.With us now are Mark Lewis, the solicitor for the Dowler family and
:06:54. > :06:59.a Labour MP, Tom Watson. You have spoken to the family tonight, how
:06:59. > :07:03.are they efeeling? They are obviously devastated and were
:07:03. > :07:07.devastated. They have just gone through an ordeal, a criminal trial,
:07:07. > :07:10.to be notified of the police of this, to know that they were
:07:10. > :07:14.victims of crime and their daughter was a victim of another crime in
:07:14. > :07:18.the respect of phone hacking, just next to this, the people that they
:07:18. > :07:23.thought that they were being supported by have let them down,
:07:23. > :07:27.both the police, the press, everybody was letting them down.
:07:27. > :07:33.Now, we have to be careful about this, there is the question of the
:07:33. > :07:38.deleting of messages on Milly's phone, have they been told for a
:07:38. > :07:42.fact that was -- that happened, firstly, secondly, that it was
:07:43. > :07:50.carried out by somebody, an investigator or somebody that they
:07:50. > :07:55.did not know? How it works is that when people's messages are or the
:07:55. > :07:59.voicemail box is full. The message that goes out is that the voicemail
:07:59. > :08:04.is full, try again later. Subsequently, if people are phoning
:08:04. > :08:09.up and messages are left, the only explanation is that the person is
:08:09. > :08:13.wiping the messages off, so that there is room in the voicemail to
:08:13. > :08:19.leave voicemails. Did that really give them hope?
:08:19. > :08:22.That would have given them hope, I'm sure it did in the particular
:08:22. > :08:26.circumstances, the parents were trying to get hold of their
:08:26. > :08:31.daughter. Tom, what do you make of this
:08:31. > :08:34.is a failure of political leadership. There have been many
:08:34. > :08:37.hints to Ed Miliband, Nick Clegg and David Cameron that something
:08:37. > :08:42.very murky happened with Glenn Mulcaire and the News of the World
:08:42. > :08:47.newsroom. They have let the Dowler family down tonight by not calling
:08:47. > :08:50.for a public inquiry. It is time that they acted. That is the
:08:50. > :08:55.biggest scandal of the lot. Politicians are frightened of News
:08:55. > :09:00.International, they need to act. You are talking about your own
:09:00. > :09:04.leader there? I'm afraid that he is as guilty as David Cameron and Nick
:09:04. > :09:08.Clegg. Politicians across the board let the Dowler family down and the
:09:08. > :09:12.other hacking victims, Parliament needs to speak out and sort this
:09:12. > :09:15.out. What do you think should happen now? I think that all the
:09:15. > :09:20.party leaders should come together and declare that when the criminal
:09:20. > :09:23.investigations are over, that there is a judge-led inquiry to get to
:09:23. > :09:27.the facts and hopefully some goodwill come out of this evil and
:09:27. > :09:32.that is self-regulation of the newspaper industries that works.
:09:32. > :09:37.Do you think this is a tipping point in the way that the public
:09:37. > :09:42.regard the way some of the tabloid newspapers work? Well I think that
:09:42. > :09:49.the PR people at News International have done a good job of persuading
:09:49. > :09:53.people this is just about celebrity tittle-tattle, that is dispeled.
:09:53. > :09:57.Part of the problem is that many are just learning the story, the
:09:57. > :10:02.other scandal is that newspapers have refused to report the facts of
:10:02. > :10:06.the case as it is revealed through the parliamentary einquiries and
:10:06. > :10:10.through the police inquiries. Apparently it is in none of the
:10:10. > :10:13.tabloids tomorrow? Well, can you believe it? They were happy to put
:10:13. > :10:16.the Dowler family on the front pages during the case.
:10:16. > :10:21.Now, the Dowler family's relationship with the News of the
:10:21. > :10:24.World is quite a complicated one. It seems that Milly's phone was
:10:24. > :10:29.being hacked, messages were being deleted, that was obviously
:10:29. > :10:33.changing the way they thought, the hope that they clung to, they also
:10:33. > :10:36.give an interview to the News of the World? What was happening they
:10:36. > :10:42.were amongst people that they trusted, that they thought were
:10:42. > :10:46.getting support it is a widely-read newspaper, an organ of effectively
:10:46. > :10:52.hope of getting in touch with the public looking for things. In fact
:10:52. > :10:56.what we find out is that they were culpable of a gross intrusion of
:10:56. > :11:00.privacy and perhaps people who could be trusted. What you must
:11:00. > :11:03.remember eis that Milly Dowler would not have been someone of
:11:03. > :11:07.interest to Glenn Mulcaire, the private investigator, but for the
:11:07. > :11:11.fact that she had been abducted. When that happened somebody at the
:11:11. > :11:16.News of the World had to give specific instructions to say find
:11:16. > :11:20.Milly Dowler, find her phone, listen to it. That person must be
:11:20. > :11:26.absolutely shocked that they have been found out tonight. Why they
:11:26. > :11:31.did that, why Glenn Mulcaire listened to the phone calls also.
:11:31. > :11:36.Have you heard that there were five people at the newspaper, so-called
:11:36. > :11:40.Princes of Darkness to authorise this behaviour? This phrase the
:11:40. > :11:44.Princes of Darkness has been used to describe people. What Tom was
:11:44. > :11:49.saying that people that put this spin on it, with celebrity sports
:11:49. > :11:54.people, ets eets, that they were being listened to, it is something
:11:54. > :11:58.that I have been banging my head against the wall, this is not just
:11:58. > :12:02.about the celebrities, this is ordinary people who are victims of
:12:02. > :12:04.a wide spread practise in the News of the World to get stories
:12:04. > :12:10.irrespective of the harm that they might cause.
:12:10. > :12:14.Do you have reason to believe that there are other cases out there of
:12:14. > :12:19.a similar nature? Fortunately not that many cases, but I think that
:12:19. > :12:24.we while see others involved in that type of thing, I know that Tom
:12:24. > :12:29.has spoken about it in Parliament, that have been subject to hacking.
:12:29. > :12:33.Since this inquiry, a number of whistle-blowers have talked to me
:12:33. > :12:39.privately. There is a strong suspicion that one of the parents
:12:39. > :12:45.murdered by Ian Huntley at Soham have been a target by the News of
:12:45. > :12:55.the World. We would like you to stay, if not,
:12:55. > :12:59.it may not make a difference. Our poll questioning Scottish
:12:59. > :13:04.independence, 48% were against Scottish independence with 36 in
:13:04. > :13:09.favour. That is about the same level of support for cutting the
:13:09. > :13:13.tie north of the border. When we asked a similar question
:13:13. > :13:23.four years ago 16% backed an oint Scotland. If the Scots choose to go
:13:23. > :13:31.
:13:31. > :13:41.it alone, the glir may not be too The remainder did not know. When
:13:41. > :13:44.
:13:44. > :13:47.The question of Scottish independence has become more urgent
:13:47. > :13:51.since the Scots Nationalists took control of the Parliament in
:13:51. > :13:55.Holyrood. They promise a referendum on independence. No-one is offering
:13:55. > :14:00.the English a vote on whether 300 years of union should be chucked in
:14:00. > :14:04.the bin. We're going to talk further about whether Britain has a
:14:04. > :14:12.future shortly. First, we asked Allan Little what he thought was
:14:12. > :14:17.behind the rise of Scottish nationalism.
:14:17. > :14:21.Even they seem dumbfounded by the scale of their victory. It's game-
:14:21. > :14:27.changing potential. 50 years ago the SNP polled less than 1% of the
:14:27. > :14:31.popular vote. What has happened in Scotland in the course of my own
:14:31. > :14:36.lifetime to turn them into "the" dominant force, one that is
:14:37. > :14:42.changing the political landscape of Scotland? This party, the Scottish
:14:42. > :14:47.party, the national party, carries your hope. We shall carry it
:14:47. > :14:52.carefully. In the Scotland I grew up in, the British state was a very
:14:52. > :14:56.concrete presence. It dug coal, milled steel, built ships,
:14:56. > :15:00.manufactured motor cars. It put the gas and electricity and the phone
:15:00. > :15:06.into your home. The state probably even owned the house you lived in.
:15:06. > :15:08.In the '80s all that changed. Scottish industry was swept away.
:15:08. > :15:18.Something of the shared experience of Britishness was swept away with
:15:18. > :15:19.
:15:19. > :15:25.it. Coal mining now belongs to the museum services. It is something we
:15:25. > :15:31.learn that our forebearers once did. This is the mining museum at knew
:15:31. > :15:35.ton grange near Edinburgh. The miners of Fife and the Lothains
:15:35. > :15:38.were part of a shared community with not Hampshire, Yorkshire and
:15:38. > :15:43.South Wales. They told the same history of struggle and social
:15:43. > :15:48.progress. They fought the same fights against the same enemies.
:15:48. > :15:51.They shared the pantheon of folk heroes. It was a pan-British
:15:51. > :15:59.enterprise. Their tradition was one of the bedrocks of British identity
:15:59. > :16:02.in Scotland. And it's gone. With every year that passes, it recedes
:16:02. > :16:06.further and further into a distant collective memory. This is not so
:16:06. > :16:13.much the rise of a new Scottish sentiment, it's more the gradual
:16:13. > :16:18.decay of much of what it once meant to be British. After the Second
:16:18. > :16:22.World War, the union between Scotland and England really meant
:16:22. > :16:27.something. It's the closest the two nations have been since the act of
:16:27. > :16:31.union in 1707. There had been a Great War against a common enemy of
:16:31. > :16:36.fascism. The national health service was being established, this
:16:36. > :16:42.great creation of the post-war Labour Government. Socialism itself
:16:42. > :16:46.was a great integrative force. Then came Thatcherism, socialism
:16:46. > :16:52.disappears, the state is not the same as it was and the ties that
:16:52. > :16:57.bound became gradually loosened. Loyalty to the idea of the British
:16:57. > :17:01.union is written into the street names of Scotland. To pre-war
:17:01. > :17:07.generations the union meant the great shared enterprise of empire.
:17:07. > :17:12.But that's long gone too. So what is left of Britishness? The Queen
:17:12. > :17:17.remains very important, the army and all that kiefpbd thing is
:17:17. > :17:21.important, but -- kind of thing is important, but at the heart, the
:17:21. > :17:26.thing that most Scots feel in the depth of their being is that
:17:26. > :17:30.Britain, a United Kingdom, offers them economic security and I think
:17:30. > :17:36.the experience of our two main banks collapsing has really brought
:17:36. > :17:39.that home to people. People think, hang on, if Scotland had been
:17:39. > :17:49.independent around that time, who would have bailed out our banks?
:17:49. > :17:53.Would we be in the same situation as Ireland or Iceland? Pro-union
:17:53. > :17:57.politicians should be careful with this line of argument. Many Scots
:17:57. > :18:02.remember being warned that even devolution would bring economic
:18:02. > :18:06.disaster. It didn't. Oil has made Aberdeen the second richest city in
:18:06. > :18:10.Britain. Unemployment in Aberdeenshire is less than 2%.
:18:10. > :18:15.There is evidence that many Scots no longer respond well to being
:18:15. > :18:20.told that they couldn't possibly survive alone. Alex Salmond made a
:18:20. > :18:24.rod for his own back when he argued that an independent Scotland would
:18:24. > :18:28.be part of some kind of ark of prosperity that took in Ireland and
:18:28. > :18:32.Iceland. We don't hear much of that argument now. Even so, many
:18:32. > :18:38.Scottish people look across the North Sea to small countries,
:18:38. > :18:43.kprobl population to Scotland, also on the northern periphery of Europe,
:18:43. > :18:46.Finland, Norway, Denmark, which prosper. And they ask: If they can
:18:46. > :18:54.do it, why can't we? Is there really something inherent in the
:18:54. > :19:00.nature of Scotland that makes it uniquely unable to pay its own way?
:19:00. > :19:05.There is a well enTrenched popular perception of the Scots as
:19:05. > :19:09.unproductive subsidy junkies, bailed out year after year by their
:19:09. > :19:16.southern neighbours. What do the Treasury figures reveal? In 2008/9
:19:16. > :19:22.which is the last full numbers, in that year 59 billion was spend on
:19:22. > :19:29.public expenditure and 43 billion came in by way of revenue. That gap
:19:29. > :19:35.between those two figures, can you express it as a percentage of GDP.
:19:35. > :19:40.In GDP between about 2005 and 2008, if you were to, that didn't include
:19:40. > :19:47.North Sea oil revenues, I should caution, if you included that,
:19:47. > :19:54.clearly that's a point for debate, then the percentage of GDP ranging
:19:54. > :19:57.from 1.6 to 2.3%. When you include oil revenue from Scottish waters,
:19:57. > :20:02.Scotland's budget deficit is not very different to that of the UK,
:20:02. > :20:08.fairly normal by European standards. And when the price of oil rises,
:20:08. > :20:12.Scotland's deficit falls below the UK's. Two things Scotland's got no
:20:12. > :20:16.shortage of are these - wide-open spaces with almost nobody living on
:20:16. > :20:21.them and secondly, plenty of this - wind. You just have to stand here
:20:21. > :20:27.for a few mintoits feel the huge potential of it. Alex Salmond's
:20:27. > :20:30.ambition is to turn Scotland carbon neutral by 2020. He talks about a
:20:30. > :20:36.post-oil future in which an independent Scotland would be, what
:20:36. > :20:46.he calls. The Saudi Arabia of renewable energy. Is it more
:20:46. > :20:51.
:20:51. > :20:56.achievable inside or outside the United Kingdom? This is Macies --
:20:56. > :21:03.mackies ice-cream, all made in Aberdeenshire and powered by the
:21:03. > :21:09.wind on the hill, the whole process from udder to tub.
:21:09. > :21:12.Mac Mackie is the boss. He has three wind turbines. They power his
:21:12. > :21:17.factory and he sells excess electricity to the National Grid.
:21:17. > :21:22.On balance over a year we produce more electricity on site than we
:21:22. > :21:27.use. We're, from that point of view, carbon neutral. It's a huge
:21:27. > :21:32.opportunity for Scotland. Scotland is the windiest country in Europe.
:21:32. > :21:38.The UK as a whole is a big electricity user. That's why
:21:38. > :21:45.Scotland can become 1 hundred% renewable by 2020, which is the SNP
:21:45. > :21:51.plan. I think we can do that. herein lies the problem for Alex
:21:51. > :21:54.Salmond. Many Scots support him in his drive to carbon neutrality and
:21:54. > :21:59.in many other things, without seeing why they need to leave the
:21:59. > :22:03.United Kingdom to do it. When the Scottish Parliament was set up more
:22:03. > :22:07.than a decade ago, the sky didn't fall in, businesses did not run
:22:07. > :22:11.away to England, there was no flight of capital. It quickly
:22:11. > :22:15.established itself as the undisputed focus of political
:22:15. > :22:22.domestic life in Scotland. But there is something odd about this
:22:22. > :22:26.pafrlt, -- Parliament, it's the only national legislature
:22:26. > :22:30.responsible for spending public money but has no corresponding
:22:31. > :22:35.money to raise it. A consensus has formed among the major parties here
:22:35. > :22:39.that that's got to change. It's about to. Westminster is planning
:22:39. > :22:44.to transfer some responsibility for tax to Holyrood soon. The Scottish
:22:44. > :22:51.Parliament is getting more powerful. And an intriguing new idea is
:22:51. > :22:54.gaining traction, something they're calling devolution Max or
:22:54. > :22:58.independence light. The SNP has been talking about independence in
:22:58. > :23:05.a different way to the way it's been conceived. They accept, for
:23:05. > :23:08.the time being, Scotland would retain the pound sterling. So a lot
:23:08. > :23:14.of economic policy would exist south of the border. There's talk
:23:14. > :23:17.of using the UK diplomatic corps, the UK embassy as broad, perhaps a
:23:17. > :23:22.unified command structure in the army, though they would remove
:23:23. > :23:32.Trident and other ways in which they call a new social union would
:23:33. > :23:34.
:23:34. > :23:39.replace the old UK. I went to an agricultural fair in Murray,
:23:39. > :23:43.they're farming folk. In England this would be natural Tory
:23:43. > :23:47.territory. Here they vote SNP. That doesn't mean they'll vote for
:23:47. > :23:52.independence. I don't want to go independent. I look at Norway, the
:23:52. > :23:55.cost of living in Norway at soared at the same population as Scotland,
:23:55. > :24:01.but I would rather be with the United Kingdom. Did you vote for
:24:01. > :24:04.the SNP? Yes, I did. Does that mean you want independence? No. I don't
:24:04. > :24:10.think that would be a good thing for Scotland, no. Why not? I think
:24:10. > :24:15.we need to be united. Stay where we are, keep in close contact to
:24:15. > :24:19.Westminster. But remain semi- independent. Look what happens when
:24:19. > :24:23.you go down the age demographic. What do you do? I'm a lambing
:24:23. > :24:28.shepherd. Does the fact that you voted for the SNP mean you want
:24:28. > :24:33.independence? Yes, I think that is the way forward tore Scotland.
:24:33. > :24:37.-- For Scotland. The debate is no longer about whether independence
:24:37. > :24:42.is feasible. It's about whether it's desirable. For independence no
:24:42. > :24:48.longer means a repudiation of all that is British. It no longer means
:24:48. > :24:53.separation in any meaningful sense and that is the real game changer.
:24:53. > :25:03.Well with us now is the SNP's Joan McAlpine, a member of the Scottish
:25:03. > :25:06.Parliament. Peter Davies a mayor of Doncaster and the Conservative MP,
:25:06. > :25:11.Rory Stewart, the member for Penrith and the borders. If this
:25:11. > :25:16.marriage fails, does it matter? matters very deeply. We'll miss it
:25:16. > :25:21.terribly. It's very easy to imagine you can tear apart, but like any
:25:21. > :25:25.relationship, any intertwined thing, once it's gone, we will miss it and
:25:25. > :25:29.never forgive the governments that tore it apart. What would we lose?
:25:29. > :25:33.It's a mistake to think we lose economics. You can make economic
:25:33. > :25:36.arguments, political arguments. You lose an idea. An idea of union. An
:25:36. > :25:43.idea of what was great about Britain, of England, of Scotland
:25:43. > :25:47.and those are the things that all of us feel. Is there any benefit in
:25:47. > :25:53.this separation to the English? there any benefit to the English?
:25:53. > :26:00.No not that you necessarily care. care very deeply about the English.
:26:00. > :26:05.I'm quite an Anglo-file myself. The English in your own book, the
:26:05. > :26:09.English identity has been rather suppressed by British identity.
:26:09. > :26:14.Whereas Scots had a dual identity through the age of the empire. The
:26:14. > :26:20.English weren't really allowed to express many of their traditions.
:26:20. > :26:25.It would free the English you think, in a way? I think so. Do you think
:26:25. > :26:29.anything would be lost? No, because I think we'd continue to have a
:26:29. > :26:34.strong social union. We would have the Queen as head of state. We
:26:34. > :26:38.would still have a lot of cross- border cooperation. This is part of
:26:38. > :26:44.a process. It's not a divorce. It's in the a break up. It's about
:26:44. > :26:53.Scotland joining in. As an English Democrat, would you worry? Could I
:26:54. > :26:59.be a Scot-ophile? Be whatever you like. Do you care if the Scots
:26:59. > :27:04.decide to go their own way? Not now. If we turn the clock back, I would
:27:04. > :27:09.like to go back to the status quo before the devolution settlement...
:27:09. > :27:12.I thought you were going to the 1700s. No, the devolution affair
:27:12. > :27:15.was a total mistake on the part of the Labour Government. It was done
:27:15. > :27:18.to shore up their own support in Scotland and Wales. They thought
:27:18. > :27:22.they would be in power there forever and a day. Clearly, that's
:27:22. > :27:29.not been the case. The losers in the devolution affair were the
:27:29. > :27:33.English. If I could intervene... got no Parliament. The reason for
:27:33. > :27:37.the Scottish Parliament was because there had been a very, very long
:27:37. > :27:43.campaign within Scotland for a Parliament that allowed a
:27:43. > :27:46.democratic expression for Scotland. I think probably in the end it
:27:46. > :27:51.reflected desires for the Scottish people. I think it would have been
:27:52. > :27:55.dangerous to fight it forever. At the same time, Scotland and England
:27:55. > :27:59.can be independent and confident and Scotland is more independent in
:27:59. > :28:04.the union than it would be. Would you be in favour of further
:28:04. > :28:08.devolution since there seems to still be an appetite for it? Giving
:28:08. > :28:12.more taxation powers is good. But Scotland needs, I'm half Scottish,
:28:12. > :28:16.half English, like many people in this country. It's a reckless and
:28:16. > :28:19.unnecessary thing. People aren't going to stop breeding if the two
:28:19. > :28:23.countries separate. It's perfectly possible. Of course it is. All of
:28:23. > :28:27.this can be done if you want to do it. It's not going to be the cat
:28:27. > :28:32.clix or the end of the world. It would be a crying shame and
:28:32. > :28:37.something we would lose by. What about an English Parliament?
:28:37. > :28:41.ahead. This is about national identity. Why have the English been
:28:41. > :28:45.discriminated against? It's the largest of the four countries and
:28:45. > :28:47.the other three all got their own Assembly or Parliament? You're
:28:47. > :28:52.falling into the trap that the Scottish Nationalists are setting
:28:52. > :28:57.you. They're trying to feel that you're discriminated against.
:28:57. > :29:01.are. Everything they're doing is designed to feel resentful.
:29:01. > :29:05.resentful. You can be confident and proud of being British. I want what
:29:05. > :29:11.they've got. Do you think the English are discriminated against?
:29:11. > :29:14.Absolutely not. The lady in the film was slightly disingenuously
:29:15. > :29:19.from KPMG with her figures. Scotland puts more into the UK...
:29:20. > :29:25.I'm not talking about the economy. I'm talking about the fact the
:29:25. > :29:29.Scots have a Parliament, the Welsh and Northern Irish have an Assembly.
:29:29. > :29:34.The vast majority of Scottish people say they want full economic
:29:34. > :29:38.power, they want job creating power in their Parliament. All that is in
:29:38. > :29:43.London. If the coalition were serious about respect for Scotland,
:29:43. > :29:51.they would give us a Scotland act to allow us the levers over the
:29:51. > :29:54.economy. Do you think, do you feel discriminated against? I've never
:29:54. > :29:58.felt discriminated as English. Supposing that the Scots do decide
:29:58. > :30:02.that they are going to have a referendum on independence, do you
:30:03. > :30:06.think the English should be allowed a voice? I think. So it's natural...
:30:06. > :30:16.They couldn't force the Scots to stay if there were a majority of
:30:16. > :30:19.
:30:19. > :30:24.England who said, we don't want it Sorry, can you repeat the question.
:30:24. > :30:28.If you hear some of the poll results that we talked about in the
:30:28. > :30:32.video, the way that things are going over time. You have got even
:30:32. > :30:36.the amount of English people that are saying Scotland should get on
:30:36. > :30:41.and do their own thing, it is increasing. Whereas you ask the
:30:41. > :30:47.Scots, they are inclined to say "no", independence is maybe a
:30:47. > :30:50.little too far. They vote for the SNP but don't want to be an
:30:50. > :30:55.independent country. Are there Scots here who feel that
:30:55. > :31:00.they should be independent? I don't think that the English should have
:31:00. > :31:04.a say. It is a purely Scottish matter.
:31:04. > :31:09.You don't think they should have a say? Not really.
:31:09. > :31:13.I think it is probably a good thing for Rory and his party. I don't
:31:13. > :31:19.think that life will change too much. I think that the Scots and
:31:19. > :31:23.the English get on well. We eget on well now with the
:31:23. > :31:27.pseudoindependence, so what would change? That point is clearly
:31:27. > :31:33.typical of many English, who are not that fussed about it? It is
:31:33. > :31:38.true that we get on well. It has been a very, very difficult period
:31:38. > :31:41.learning to get on well, we didn't before we had a union. We are in
:31:41. > :31:48.danger of opening up rivalries, crisis of identities that none of
:31:49. > :31:53.us need or want and are not going to enfit us. The British Empire
:31:53. > :31:59.used to have Canada, Australia, Ireland. We have great contacts
:31:59. > :32:07.with them, family ties, social ties, economic ties.
:32:07. > :32:13.You have not been at Murrayfield when they are playing? I come from
:32:13. > :32:18.a Scottish family. I don't think that you speak for
:32:18. > :32:21.Scotland when you say that. You mentioned the monarchy, you
:32:21. > :32:26.can't to keep the Queen? That's correct, yes.
:32:26. > :32:32.In the way that Canada does? Exactly. What about the army?
:32:32. > :32:38.the army it is the army that markets itself, there is a Scottish
:32:38. > :32:43.army. Scotland does not have a great deal of union dividend.
:32:43. > :32:47.Deefence spending is cut by 36%. Would you expect to take control of
:32:47. > :32:53.the Scottish regiments in the army? Yes.
:32:53. > :32:57.They would be e be sent into action by Alex Salmond? Not into legal --
:32:57. > :33:01.illegal wars. What you deem legal wars, they
:33:01. > :33:08.would be under a separate command? Of course.
:33:08. > :33:14.What about Scottish banks? Will you take those back too? Scottish
:33:14. > :33:21.banks? Yes, the ones bailed out by the British taxpayers! Well, the
:33:21. > :33:25.Scottish banks cost �6 billion to bail out Scottish GDP at that time
:33:25. > :33:29.was �14 of 6 million, so Scotland was able to bail out its own.
:33:29. > :33:34.If you take the English bankers out of the Scottish bank, they would
:33:34. > :33:42.anybody better shape. A cheap point! Now, supposing this
:33:42. > :33:46.happens, as seems probably now, what would be the consequences for
:33:46. > :33:51.England in your ideal word? would get our own Parliament, which
:33:51. > :33:58.we have not had since devolution started. They rule themselves, the
:33:58. > :34:03.Welsh do, the Irish do, we are ruled by Scots, Welsh, Irish and
:34:03. > :34:07.Europeans, the cradle of democracy has lots its democracy in the House
:34:07. > :34:11.of Commons. So we would get the ability to rule ourselves back. I
:34:11. > :34:16.also thing that we would be able to get out of the European Union as
:34:16. > :34:20.most of the support for it comes from the Scots and the Welsh.
:34:20. > :34:25.You, sir? I think that Westminster has got itself into a serious
:34:25. > :34:31.muddle. I think, I would ask you to consider this, Rory, the fact that
:34:31. > :34:33.Scottish MPs can vote on English matters, is clearly completely
:34:33. > :34:38.wrong. Exactly.
:34:39. > :34:44.And the Westminster model. That is the model, as an Australian it
:34:44. > :34:49.seems bizarre and eccentric that the English have allowed that
:34:49. > :34:53.wonderful model of Parliament to be completely... Go on? I think you
:34:53. > :34:56.have a point. There$$NEWLINE There are big problems, but there is a
:34:56. > :35:00.bigger game. What is happening is that we are
:35:00. > :35:05.coming in on ourselves. We are becoming narrow minded. There are
:35:05. > :35:11.big things that the union have given us over 300 years and will
:35:11. > :35:17.continue to do so. England produces the industrial revolution, Scotland
:35:17. > :35:21.the Scottish enlightenment and yes there will be adjustments, this
:35:21. > :35:25.devolution raises lots of issue, but I'm sure in the world we face
:35:25. > :35:31.it will be better to be a bigger, more confident country, not to fall
:35:31. > :35:36.in ourselves. Look at the pros perity index, not
:35:36. > :35:39.only on economy, but well being and health, the countries at the top
:35:39. > :35:44.are Norway, Finland, Denmark, Australia, New Zealand. The
:35:44. > :35:52.supernational states like the UK and the US are far down. The UK is
:35:52. > :35:55.a very unequal country. It has one of the highest levels of unequality
:35:55. > :35:58.in Europe. We have been trying to move away from that. Moving to
:35:58. > :36:03.independence will be allowing us to go further down that road.
:36:03. > :36:07.I want to move on if I may. Politicallentities in the end,
:36:08. > :36:12.although in the beginning are built on a shared sense of purpose and
:36:12. > :36:18.identity, if, Haas been suggested, that the purpose is wobbly, what of
:36:18. > :36:23.the identity north of the border? The nationalist are building a
:36:23. > :36:27.Scottish officialer identity, but have the English a comparable sense
:36:27. > :36:37.to set against it? Fergal Keane is Irish, we asked him to look at the
:36:37. > :36:37.
:36:37. > :36:45.whole question of what being English means now.
:36:45. > :36:49.This is the landscape of the imagined England, the heartland of
:36:49. > :36:54.the Anglo-Saxons. From this land of marsh and wood, came a man we might
:36:54. > :36:59.call the Father of English Nationalism.
:36:59. > :37:06.Hereward the Wake. The celebrated here in Victorian art as the
:37:06. > :37:10.essence of English marshal vigour. Never mind ehe had partly Danish
:37:10. > :37:16.roots. Hereward the Wake harried the Norman conquerers, he struck
:37:16. > :37:24.and then vanished into the Fenland wilderness. Later, generations of
:37:24. > :37:29.writers would myth ol guise him as the symbol of defiance, but it was
:37:29. > :37:34.English pragmatism that triumphed. Accepting Norman rule and
:37:34. > :37:39.ultimately building the world's mightiest empire. A nation founded
:37:39. > :37:43.on the monarchy, the chump and Parliament. In Shakespeare's world,
:37:43. > :37:48.an England never did lie at the proud foot of a conquerer. That
:37:48. > :37:54.stability is really part of the problem for English nationalism.
:37:54. > :37:59.For nationalism to thrive and to become a mass movement it needs an
:37:59. > :38:05.existential threat. The Scots Scots, the Irish and the Welsh had all
:38:05. > :38:09.conquering England as the maligned kol osus against which they found
:38:09. > :38:15.their national identities, but the English have not had a conerr on
:38:15. > :38:20.their own soil in over 1,000 years. Englishness became the dominant
:38:20. > :38:26.identity of the British imperial project.
:38:26. > :38:32.Here in the Fenland town of March, as in so much of the rest of
:38:32. > :38:36.England, English and Britishness are hard to disentangle.
:38:37. > :38:41.We have different sorts of English people talked about in the country
:38:41. > :38:47.from Yorkshire, Wales, with different accents, but really, it
:38:47. > :38:50.is one group of people I'm English, I'm British, I don't care. I'm
:38:50. > :38:53.happy. I always welcomed the concept of
:38:53. > :38:57.Britain with Scotland, Wales and Ireland, but they don't seem to be
:38:57. > :39:02.happy about being a part of the union. That is fine by me.
:39:02. > :39:10.Does it make you resent the Scots? Not at all. As long as they have a
:39:10. > :39:16.passport to come down here for a visit! LAUGHTER! We let ethem in!
:39:16. > :39:23.We're got going to stand for that. You can't push people around like
:39:23. > :39:26.sacks of potatoes. Henry Cornelius's classic, Passport
:39:26. > :39:31.To Pimlico, celebrates an English identity untouched by the
:39:31. > :39:37.insecurities that can afflict the conquered or the colonised.
:39:37. > :39:42.What is the idea of this? But in the age of departing certainties,
:39:42. > :39:47.how should England respond to Scots nationalism? I'm in no doubt that
:39:47. > :39:51.you cannot stand in the way of a distinct people, or a distinct
:39:51. > :39:54.national identity who wish through constitutional change to express
:39:54. > :39:59.that identity. The English have to realise that.
:39:59. > :40:05.The English need to think about the need, the democratic need for an
:40:05. > :40:12.English Parliament. I hope I live and see the day when
:40:12. > :40:15.the flag of St George is flying over the Victoria at Westminster.
:40:15. > :40:20.Throughout modern history, England's political main stream has
:40:20. > :40:24.committed itself to union. Now the task of articulating a
:40:24. > :40:29.definitively English response to the fraying of the union is largely
:40:29. > :40:36.taking place outside of politics. Here at Newcastle, the Scots once
:40:36. > :40:41.laid siege to the city, after taking up arms against the king.
:40:41. > :40:46.Within 50 years of that siege, the two nations were bound together in
:40:46. > :40:52.an act of union which endures still. In many ways this city came to
:40:52. > :40:56.symbolise a British working-class experience shared with men on the
:40:56. > :41:00.collide to the north with ship builders in Belfast, coal miners in
:41:00. > :41:05.Wales. I've come to Newcastle to see if
:41:06. > :41:10.the changes in Scotland might lead to a re-awakening of an English
:41:10. > :41:18.nationalism in those who up until now, were happy to calls themselves
:41:18. > :41:22.British. This region has always had a very
:41:22. > :41:27.delicate relationship with Scotland. In that this region is covered in
:41:27. > :41:33.calfs, built to defend it against Scotland. I'm not sure that people
:41:33. > :41:37.in Northumbria are at a more Northumbrian now because of the
:41:37. > :41:43.existence of skarbl nationalism. I think there is a general English
:41:43. > :41:47.awakenings in the new nationalism of British ness.
:41:47. > :41:52.What does this mean to the people here now? I don't think that it has
:41:52. > :41:58.the intensity of the Welsh, or the Scottish or an Irish identity, but
:41:58. > :42:04.it is about core values that people believe are English. Things like
:42:04. > :42:08.fair play, individualism, about being decent. It is the local or
:42:08. > :42:14.the working-class or ordinary person's view of the values that we
:42:14. > :42:24.see, that all over the world people see as timeless, as being connect
:42:24. > :42:29.the to Britain. As an outsider, I have been struck
:42:29. > :42:36.by the pragmat itch -- pragmatism of English.
:42:36. > :42:41.Like people such as George Orwell, who whom hate had no attraction.
:42:41. > :42:48.Assertism is a more Anglican quality. Ironically, it really
:42:48. > :42:52.characterises what Englishness should be. How-do reenvent that?
:42:52. > :42:56.your congregation, there are those who perceive themselves as proudly
:42:56. > :43:01.British. Do you think that they are reassessing themselves as British?
:43:01. > :43:07.It does make them say, what does it leave for us, who are we? So there
:43:07. > :43:10.is that process. We have seen that, really with efforts to suddenly
:43:10. > :43:16.bring St George's Day back to life and the St George's flag and who
:43:16. > :43:22.owns the flag, there has been a lot of that going on, I think. England
:43:22. > :43:28.till I die! I'm English till I die! This is part of the problem, for
:43:28. > :43:34.what we might call a thinking man's nationalism! The attempt by the
:43:34. > :43:40.far-right to pro Pre-Budget Report -- prooperate Englishness.
:43:40. > :43:42.The signs over that very brutal, rather British assertiveness in the
:43:42. > :43:47.right-wing organisations, something that really scares people, so
:43:47. > :43:54.people are saying we have to claim a better kind of Englishness,
:43:54. > :44:00.reclaim that, but have not yet the answer to what it might mean.
:44:00. > :44:07.But national identity has never been static. How could it be on an
:44:07. > :44:11.island that over centuries absorbed waves of migration? In 40 years 20%
:44:11. > :44:16.of the English population will be made up of ethnic minorities.
:44:16. > :44:25.There was a time when I was in the Midlands, walking past the pub and
:44:25. > :44:30.a series of thugs, basically, swathed in with the George flag
:44:30. > :44:33.started to do seek heil salutes. I was petrified, but even having that
:44:33. > :44:39.experience, I don't think that they have a territorial claim over a
:44:39. > :44:44.national flag, why should they? you had arn ideal of English
:44:44. > :44:54.definition, what would it be? just us. Not them and us. Just us.
:44:54. > :44:59.We need not be apologetic about The Scots aren't about to vanish in
:44:59. > :45:03.a blaze, nor are the English going to succumb the xenophobic
:45:03. > :45:07.nationalism. But the rise of the Scots Nationalist is, at least,
:45:07. > :45:15.nudging the English towards thinking of a -- a world after the
:45:15. > :45:19.union. Nothing less than re-imagining
:45:19. > :45:23.England. Joan McAlpine of the SNP is still
:45:24. > :45:27.here. We're also joined by Owen Jones author of the book Chavs: The
:45:27. > :45:31.Demonisation of the Working Class, Don Letts, the author and film
:45:31. > :45:34.maker who famously introduced the clash to reggae and Michael
:45:34. > :45:39.Portillo, the former Conservative Cabinet minister.
:45:39. > :45:43.What do you think is happening to our sense of identity? I think
:45:43. > :45:47.English initialism in particular is filling a vacuum. There's a crisis
:45:47. > :45:50.of identity in many of our communities. That's to do with
:45:50. > :45:54.class, that idea of being working class in many communities, is a
:45:54. > :45:59.sense that's something you could be proud of. That's come under attack.
:45:59. > :46:04.If we think of industries, you can get Dewey eyed about this, they
:46:04. > :46:08.were often back breaking jobs, there was pride in work. These were
:46:08. > :46:14.the industries which were the backbone of communities. Unions
:46:14. > :46:20.provided a sense of identity. English nationalism has filled the
:46:20. > :46:26.vacuum. You like Englishness don't snu It's worked for me for 55 years.
:46:26. > :46:30.I describe myself as British born black. A term that rolls off the
:46:30. > :46:35.tongue now. Growing up through the 70s that was a very confuegz
:46:35. > :46:39.concept. It waents until the late 80s that being black and British
:46:39. > :46:44.seemed to make some kind of sense. Now in the 21st century you're
:46:44. > :46:48.asking me to decide whether I'm British or English. That's
:46:48. > :46:53.disturbing. I never heard this conversation during more prosperous
:46:53. > :46:59.times. I have to wonder how much is related to the economic climate.
:46:59. > :47:03.may have to do, with respect, your age. It was interesting in the film
:47:03. > :47:08.there, ethnic minority considers himself English. You know, I saw
:47:08. > :47:13.the struggles that my parents' generation went through trying to
:47:13. > :47:17.become angli sized and the soul destroying process it was. Was down
:47:17. > :47:24.to my generation to reclaim a sense of identity and understand what we
:47:24. > :47:28.had to bring to the party, so to speak. You're reassessing
:47:28. > :47:34.everything, aren't you? No, I'm not actually. I think Britishness is
:47:34. > :47:40.and has been for a long time, defined as being anti-fanaticism.
:47:40. > :47:43.It goes back to Elizabeth I, the understanding that fanaticism of
:47:43. > :47:47.Catholics or Protestants would tear the kingdom apart. That is still a
:47:47. > :47:52.characteristic of the British. It is a characteristic shared by
:47:52. > :47:57.Scottish and English people to almost equal degrees. Very strong
:47:57. > :48:02.contributions to Britishness, the enlightenment figures of Scotland,
:48:02. > :48:05.for example. Now, there is a feeling in Scotland that amongst
:48:06. > :48:10.some people they want to distance themselves from England or change
:48:10. > :48:15.their constitutional arrangement. There are some Scots who are anti-
:48:15. > :48:20.English. That doesn't make them non-British. I think the sense of
:48:20. > :48:23.Britishness is still very, very strong. The other characteristic is
:48:23. > :48:28.the sovereignty of the individual and the distrust of the state.
:48:28. > :48:33.don't you like Britishness? didn't say I disliked Britishness.
:48:33. > :48:38.You prefer Scottishness. Britishness is a political
:48:38. > :48:43.construct. I disagree that it's about tolerance. Britishness was
:48:43. > :48:47.first constructed as an emblem of Protestantism. Then it changed
:48:47. > :48:52.again because it's a construct. It changed at the time of empire, it
:48:52. > :48:57.represented empire. For me, Britishness, I don't want to impose
:48:57. > :49:03.identities on anyone else, but for me, it was about the empire and
:49:03. > :49:07.about colonies and about jingoism. Don is perfectly happy with it.
:49:07. > :49:10.am now. But it's been a painful process. It's taken a long time to
:49:10. > :49:14.get here. I can totally see the point that you're making, but I
:49:14. > :49:19.think other people have made the point that it's quite interesting
:49:19. > :49:23.that it's easier for people from a non-white background in Scotland to
:49:23. > :49:28.feel Scottish and Pakistani or Scottish and west Indian than it is
:49:28. > :49:33.for them to say that they're English and Pakistani or English
:49:33. > :49:36.and west Indian. You've gone back to the notion of it being black and
:49:36. > :49:40.white. But it's more complex than it is now. I'm not imposing
:49:40. > :49:45.identity on other people. I can only speak for, for example, in the
:49:45. > :49:49.SNP, we have a lot of members from a Pakistani background. We have
:49:49. > :49:52.members from a Scottish Italian background. They are happy with the
:49:52. > :49:56.dual identity of being Scottish and also the identity of their parents
:49:56. > :50:00.and grandparents' country. thing about Britishness is you can
:50:00. > :50:04.basically define it how you want much that's the problem. One idea
:50:04. > :50:08.of Britishness... That's its strength, surely. One idea is
:50:08. > :50:11.empire, king and empire. You could claim another Britishness of
:50:11. > :50:14.British people throughout the centuries fighting for their rights
:50:14. > :50:19.against absolute monarchy, the chartist, the working class
:50:19. > :50:23.movement, the suffragettes, the NHS, all these things were collective
:50:23. > :50:29.strugzles which people fought for as Scottish, as English and Welsh
:50:29. > :50:33.people. Its plyability is surely its strength. Of course. You could
:50:33. > :50:37.claim another Britishness about those struggles being proud of
:50:37. > :50:44.those fights for democracy. Let's see if anyone here has a clear
:50:44. > :50:48.sense of what Britishness is. Does anybody... Yes, you Sir.
:50:48. > :50:53.Britishness will come of its own again later in this century, it
:50:53. > :50:58.will become the federalism by which each of our individual nations
:50:58. > :51:03.survives. What is it? collectivism, the collective spirit
:51:03. > :51:07.of peoples who are united and working together. What is
:51:07. > :51:12.Britishness? It's aspiration. We're a small country, but we're also a
:51:12. > :51:19.great country. I come from a working class background. I now
:51:19. > :51:24.work in finance. Adam Smith is an inspiration to anybody in finance.
:51:24. > :51:29.People may laugh at that, but you know, innovation, entrepreneurship,
:51:29. > :51:33.technological development, that's what it means to be British.
:51:33. > :51:38.think a main quality of Britishness is a comfortableness with multiple
:51:38. > :51:41.identities. That's a very subtle point. I was
:51:42. > :51:46.going to sate essence of Britishness is, I believe,
:51:46. > :51:50.stability and fair mindedness. As for the previous conversation that
:51:50. > :51:55.we had, I believe that the Scots and the Welsh are more
:51:55. > :52:00.Nationalistic than the English. I think the English are fairly
:52:00. > :52:04.apathetic about nationalism. It's rather odd that we haven't
:52:04. > :52:10.addressed great swathes of recent history. If you accept the point
:52:10. > :52:16.that Britishness is about being anti-fanatical, one of the features
:52:16. > :52:19.of fanaticism has propped up on the European continent, whether it was
:52:19. > :52:24.Napoleon or Hitler, in that respect, there's no difference in the
:52:24. > :52:28.reaction of the Welsh, the Scots or the English. The British reaction
:52:28. > :52:34.to the responsibility of dealing with that has been identical.
:52:34. > :52:39.Britain is not a fair union. It's not an equal union. You're making
:52:39. > :52:45.another point now. It's not. I don't think the point has been made.
:52:45. > :52:50.You've made it many times. can't have an equal union with 10%
:52:50. > :52:55.of the population in Scotland... We're trying to define Britishness.
:52:55. > :53:02.I'm not sure how important it is to go round with a label. I'm half
:53:02. > :53:10.Welsh. I'm watching rugby, if I'm at Lord's I might feel English. If
:53:10. > :53:14.I'm in France I might feel British and if I'm in Vietnam I feel
:53:14. > :53:19.European. If you're watching brave heart you hate the English. What do
:53:19. > :53:24.you make of the way there's an attempt now by the right to create
:53:24. > :53:28.an English identity, which many people in your position and of your
:53:28. > :53:32.persuasion find pretty disturbing. Very much so. There's racial
:53:32. > :53:37.dimensions in particular. A lot of it is to do with insecurities. It's
:53:37. > :53:40.to do with economic insecurities over housing, jobs, which a lot of
:53:40. > :53:44.mainstream politicians have failed to tackle. It's been easy for the
:53:44. > :53:48.far right in particular to say look, people like you aren't getting a
:53:48. > :53:54.house, you're not getting a job, why is it going to this "other",
:53:54. > :53:57.you know back in the day, those were black men, then Asians and
:53:57. > :54:01.today more often than not it's Muslim. That racial aislesed
:54:01. > :54:08.nationalism is very concerning and something which people should be
:54:08. > :54:12.very guarded about. A movement based on hate and intolerance is by
:54:12. > :54:15.its very definition not British. That's the irony. People claiming
:54:15. > :54:24.to be British Nationalists are not British and they demonstrate it by
:54:24. > :54:28.themselves -- their behaviour. do they fly the Union Flag at their
:54:28. > :54:32.rallies. If you have an understanding of Britishness it
:54:32. > :54:37.excludes hate and intolerance. don't think Indians would have said
:54:37. > :54:41.that in the 19th century. But I'm talking about Britain today and I'm
:54:41. > :54:46.talking about the way that has evolved. All countries have evolved.
:54:46. > :54:50.What the United States is now is not what it was between 1860-1865
:54:50. > :54:56.when it fought a Civil War. What Britain has arrived at today, after
:54:56. > :54:59.centuries of experience,... Perhaps you're speaking as an Englishman,
:54:59. > :55:06.very comfortable with the arrangement. I'm talking as someone
:55:06. > :55:10.who is half Scottish actually. Scottish with Spanish parents.
:55:10. > :55:14.Spanish parent. You're British I'd say aren't you? Who do you think
:55:14. > :55:19.are you? I think I'm British and English, with a Spanish father and
:55:19. > :55:24.Scottish mother. You were trying to make a point. One of the problems
:55:24. > :55:29.with these definition that's we hear are that it's so often defined
:55:30. > :55:33.by what it's not. We're against this or anti- that. If you spoke to
:55:33. > :55:37.these far-right people in the English Defence League and said
:55:37. > :55:42.what do you stand for, not what you stand against, personally I think
:55:42. > :55:47.they'd be hard pushed to answer the question. Were you trying to make a
:55:47. > :55:52.similar point? I think that the point that defining British spbs
:55:52. > :55:57.what it's not is not strong enough. That's part of this problem. You
:55:57. > :56:01.can be a chameleon and say we're going to be about evolved
:56:01. > :56:08.Britishness. But the English need to focus in on... I'm not defining
:56:08. > :56:13.it by what it's not. To be anti- fanatical is to take a strong
:56:13. > :56:18.position. The British position in history of opposing fanaticism
:56:18. > :56:27.around the world is just one of the boldest and most magnificent
:56:27. > :56:33.positions taken. That's a very fanatical position. We had the
:56:33. > :56:39.first great European revolution. We overthrew our monarchy in the 17th
:56:39. > :56:46.century about 150 years before the French. Why did we do that? Because
:56:46. > :56:51.we thought it was fanatical. That's the point. These were radical ideas.
:56:51. > :56:55.What you regard as fanatical, but they were very English. When we
:56:55. > :57:01.thought James II was a Catholic, because he was, we overthrew them
:57:01. > :57:07.both. After Cromwell who was a very fanatical Protestant, after he died
:57:07. > :57:10.we got rid of that. We have always owe polesed fanaticism. Throughout
:57:10. > :57:16.history these radical struggles... One of the first acts of the
:57:16. > :57:20.British state, if you like, was a pogrom in the Highlands of Scotland.
:57:20. > :57:25.We're not going back... You're talking about history. But this is
:57:25. > :57:30.an example of tolerance. I want to look forward. If two nations as
:57:30. > :57:34.close in history and in geography and Scotland and England cannot get
:57:34. > :57:38.along in a single political entity, it makes you ask all sorts of
:57:39. > :57:43.questions about the future of Europe, doesn't it? I've been
:57:43. > :57:49.asking those questions for a number of decades, yeah. We just caught up
:57:49. > :57:55.with you. What do you think? Look, it's very worrying at a time when
:57:55. > :57:58.globalisation is at a greater speed than ever. Nationalism is partly a
:57:58. > :58:03.backlash towards that. I'm northern and proud of that. That doesn't
:58:03. > :58:07.mean I want to break England into ever smaller units. I can deal with
:58:07. > :58:12.the term being British, but there's something worrying about a trend
:58:12. > :58:15.towards defining Englishness that, to me, wreaks of something stuck
:58:15. > :58:19.between hunkering down, an old boys network and running scared and
:58:19. > :58:24.looking for somebody to blame. It's a worrying trend. It seems to me to
:58:24. > :58:29.be a step backwards. Thank you all very much. Now tomorrow morning's
:58:30. > :58:35.front pages. The tabloids do not have any of the Milly Dowler story
:58:35. > :58:39.on the front page. The Sun has news of Ashley and Cheryl Cole
:58:39. > :58:44.apparently about to get married again.
:58:44. > :58:51.A soldier has been killed in Afghanistan in the Mirror. You'll
:58:51. > :58:56.have to pay for your care after you retire on the Daily Mail front page.
:58:56. > :59:03.Ieb profin a Daily Express health care. And Milly Dowler is on the
:59:03. > :59:07.front of the Guardian, the paper which has pursued this campaign
:59:07. > :59:12.pretty relentlessly. In the Times, the main story is about the case
:59:12. > :59:16.for adoption, with photographs of various people who were adopted and
:59:16. > :59:20.the Daily Telegraph has news of the Milly Dowler phone hacking by the
:59:20. > :59:24.News of the World. And the European Central Bank, according to the
:59:24. > :59:28.Financial Times is ready to reject a downgrading of the rating of
:59:28. > :59:38.Greece. That's enough for now. I'm back
:59:38. > :00:04.
:00:04. > :00:09.Hello there. I hope you enjoyed the fine and warm start to the week.
:00:09. > :00:14.The weather is on the change. We will see rain through the rest of
:00:14. > :00:17.this week. For one more day across eastern parts of England, it stays
:00:17. > :00:20.fine and warm before that weather front arrives. Rain pushing into
:00:20. > :00:24.the Midlands through the afternoon. For East Anglia and the south-east,
:00:24. > :00:29.it should be pleasant with sunshine. Temperatures into the mid20s,
:00:29. > :00:33.though rain arrives heading towards evening time. Wetter out west.
:00:33. > :00:37.There will be brightness developing through the afternoon, across
:00:37. > :00:42.south-west England and Wales. The chance of showers pushing in on a
:00:42. > :00:46.gusty wind and temperatures lower than recently. After a wet start
:00:46. > :00:49.across Northern Ireland, we'll see sunshine and heavy showers through
:00:49. > :00:53.the afternoon. Maybe some thunder mixed in too. For Scotland, we'll
:00:53. > :00:59.see patchy rain extending its way west to east during the course of
:00:59. > :01:03.the day. Now then looking further ahead, it's much more unsettled.
:01:03. > :01:07.There will be rain around. Temperatures lower than recently.
:01:07. > :01:14.Held in the midteens across northern areas. Sunshine further
:01:14. > :01:19.south, but the risk of further, heavy rain at times and gusty wind