:00:09. > :00:12.Tonight, reviled, condemned and now boycotted by advertisers, the
:00:12. > :00:16.pressure is piling on Rupert Murdoch's News International, as
:00:16. > :00:20.the police confirm that the parents of the two little girls killed in
:00:20. > :00:25.the Soham murders have also been contacted by the hacking inquiry.
:00:25. > :00:29.We have also learned they have been in touch with former police officer
:00:29. > :00:33.and Crimewatch presenter Jackie Hames, to warn her, she too may
:00:33. > :00:37.have been hacked. All this blamed on an organisation this country's
:00:37. > :00:41.politicians have gone out of their way to court. Murdoch veteran,
:00:41. > :00:45.editors and Tony Blair's spin doctor are all here.
:00:45. > :00:49.For 160 years it has been the heart of British Rail way engineering,
:00:49. > :00:53.why has the Government decided to buy new trains, not from derby, but
:00:53. > :00:59.from a bunch of Germans. It just seems crazy that it could
:00:59. > :01:03.close, and if it does, Britain will lose its last toe hole in an
:01:03. > :01:08.industry that we created. Can the transport minister explain why he
:01:08. > :01:15.thinks this a better way to spend tax-payers' money.
:01:16. > :01:19.Also tonight. We have been degenerated, not regenerated.
:01:19. > :01:26.A catastrophically broken promise to the people of Stoke-on-Trent.
:01:26. > :01:36.How did a Labour pledge to rehouse people end up with things worse
:01:36. > :01:42.than before. Where are the new houses? We haven't got any.
:01:42. > :01:48.If it wasn't so nauseating it would be comdal, tonight the News of the
:01:48. > :01:57.World - comical, the News of the World journalist accused of hacking
:01:57. > :02:01.Graeme McDowell's phone - Milly Dowler's phone has asked for
:02:01. > :02:08.privacy for his family. There have been immediate commercial
:02:08. > :02:16.consequences, the Ford car company is pulling Tuesdaying from News of
:02:16. > :02:18.the World, others are thinking of doing the same. We have been told
:02:18. > :02:25.about a major new development tonight in the phone hackinging
:02:25. > :02:30.story, it centres on two police detective that is appeared on the
:02:30. > :02:35.BBC Crimewatch programme. Dave Cook, investigating a murder case, and
:02:35. > :02:39.Jackie Hames, one of the presenters, it is thought the News of the World
:02:39. > :02:44.believed they were having an affair, and they were married at the time.
:02:44. > :02:47.There is no question that their phones were accessed. It is the
:02:47. > :02:50.first stage of investigating exactly what happened and what this
:02:50. > :02:54.meant. We understand the police investigating hacking at News of
:02:54. > :03:03.the World have found confidential information on the two detectives
:03:03. > :03:10.in the miles of Glen Mulcar, the private detective the paper had
:03:10. > :03:17.employed. We still don't know exactly what happened, we know some
:03:17. > :03:20.sinister incidents took place, going beyond phone hacking. That
:03:20. > :03:25.raised issues of personal security that they were both very concerned.
:03:25. > :03:30.They both had young children at home. It started two years ago with
:03:30. > :03:34.allegations against celebrities and their representatives. Then
:03:34. > :03:40.politicians became involved. It was only yesterday with a revelation
:03:40. > :03:45.that murdered schoolgirl, Milly Dowler's phone had been hacked, the
:03:45. > :03:50.wave of dues gust threatens to continue, with news today that the
:03:50. > :03:54.families of the murdered schoolchildren, Holly Wells and
:03:54. > :03:59.Jessica Chapman have been approached by police. If it turns
:04:00. > :04:04.out the News of the World hacked into the phones belonging to the
:04:04. > :04:07.parents of Holly and Jessica, the News of the World will face further
:04:07. > :04:11.investigation. Any investigation about crimes that were interfered
:04:11. > :04:20.with, or where hacking took place, adds to the view that there are at
:04:21. > :04:24.least in parts of the industry, something very rotten. This is
:04:24. > :04:28.truly immoral what was going on. My wife said to me this morning, this
:04:28. > :04:31.was sick what was going on, that will be the reaction up and down
:04:31. > :04:35.the country. It is reasonable to assume that other high-profile
:04:35. > :04:39.crime cases could have been targets. Another obvious candidate is the
:04:39. > :04:43.case of missing girl Madeline McCann, who disappeared from the
:04:43. > :04:47.apartment in Portugal where the family was holidaying in 2007. We
:04:47. > :04:50.approached the former BBC journalist, who has represented the
:04:50. > :04:54.McCanns in recent years, he's standing on the right here. He told
:04:54. > :04:58.us today when he asked his phone company to check the records, they
:04:58. > :05:02.found several suspicious events in 2008, at the height of reporting
:05:02. > :05:06.about the Madeline case. Given the concerns that had been
:05:06. > :05:11.raised, I asked Vodaphone to check my own phone records. Whilst they
:05:11. > :05:15.prrnt able to go back through every single phone call in and out. They
:05:15. > :05:20.were able to present me with the customer service records, any time
:05:20. > :05:24.someone calls to make a payment or renew your plan a note is made by
:05:24. > :05:29.the operator. Vodaphone themselves flagged up, on at least two
:05:29. > :05:39.occasions, back in 2008, some suspicious activity on my phone,
:05:39. > :05:46.
:05:46. > :05:50.which I know had nothing to do with Clarence Mitchell has been
:05:50. > :05:54.interviewed by the police who have taken this evidence. He says he
:05:54. > :05:58.can't be sure if News of the World was behind these suspicious calls
:05:58. > :06:01.or not, he was in daily contact, and says journalists were under
:06:01. > :06:05.dangerous pressure to deliver new lines. It certainly wasn't me, it
:06:06. > :06:12.makes no sense. There is no such thing as a CID trial and there
:06:12. > :06:14.never has been a trial in the McCann case. Rebecca Brook, now
:06:14. > :06:20.News International's chief executive is coming under intense
:06:20. > :06:24.pressure to resign. I understand people have been saying that, she's
:06:24. > :06:27.clear that's what she won't do. It happened in 2002, she's chief
:06:27. > :06:32.executive of a company in 2011. She's absolutely determined to get
:06:32. > :06:36.to the bottom of this issue. She has put three senior executives in
:06:37. > :06:40.charge of it on day-to-day basis, we run this full-time, we make
:06:40. > :06:45.decision, we report to her, we are under no illusion she's absolutely
:06:46. > :06:50.determined if things went wrong we will correct them, and justice will
:06:50. > :06:53.be done. But advertisers are voting with their feet. Ford has pulled
:06:53. > :06:58.its advertising, pending the outcome of News International's
:06:58. > :07:03.inquiry. Others, including NPower, Vauxhall, Halifax, Dixon, are
:07:03. > :07:07.reviewing the accounts. Tesko, one of the biggest advertisers today,
:07:07. > :07:10.said the latest allegation also cause huge distress. Remember News
:07:10. > :07:14.International used to tell everyone, including the Press Complaints
:07:14. > :07:17.Commission, that it was all down to one rogue reporter. I am the
:07:17. > :07:22.regulator, there is only so much we can do when people are lying to us.
:07:22. > :07:29.Now we know, we didn't have the evidence then. We know now that I
:07:29. > :07:33.was not being given the truth by News of the World. New hacking
:07:33. > :07:41.victims are emerging by the hour, it seems.
:07:41. > :07:47.Tonight the independent newspaper claips that Rebecca Brooks
:07:47. > :07:52.personally ordered the hacking of certain phones, and others say that
:07:52. > :07:55.the victims of 7/7 were also targeted. New developments tonight?
:07:56. > :07:58.Happening every half an hour. My colleague was reporting earlier
:07:58. > :08:05.tonight on Twitter that News International passed e-mails to the
:08:05. > :08:14.police that seemed to show that Andy Coulson, the Prime Minister's
:08:14. > :08:20.former press secretary, did pass comment, it is thought that new
:08:20. > :08:24.information has been provided to the police. And News International
:08:24. > :08:28.has reiterated that full co- operation has been provided. This
:08:28. > :08:32.is a big issue, it is not just phone hacking, it is about the
:08:32. > :08:36.payment of police for confidential information. One final thing
:08:36. > :08:41.reported in the Telegraph tomorrow morning, the paper there. They are
:08:41. > :08:45.suggesting that some of the survivors from 7/7 may have had
:08:46. > :08:50.their phones hacked in to too. The former director of
:08:50. > :08:52.communications for Tony Blair, Alastair Campbell, as is the former
:08:52. > :09:00.News of the World journalist, Paul McMullan.
:09:00. > :09:04.Let's start with you, Paul McMullan, Rebecca Brooks said she's staying
:09:04. > :09:10.because she didn't know what was going on in the cases, could she
:09:10. > :09:14.not have shown? - known? I have always been quite loyal to her, God
:09:14. > :09:20.knows why. One slip up was when Hugh Grant came into the bar and we
:09:20. > :09:24.had a chat over the bar and I said she knew all about it to him, that
:09:24. > :09:29.was a bit of unguided bar talk. The simple answer is, yes, of course
:09:29. > :09:38.she did. She, of course denies that? I see. Right, well that is an
:09:38. > :09:41.interesting position to take. And one that when they first said it
:09:41. > :09:44.was a rogue reporter, I thought what about the legitimate
:09:44. > :09:48.investigations we have done that we have had to go into the grey areas
:09:48. > :09:51.and do these things, surely you should protect us and take the
:09:51. > :09:56.point that sometimes we have to do these things, not it is just one
:09:56. > :10:00.person, we never knew anything about it. What was it like to work
:10:00. > :10:06.there at the time. Glenn Mulcaire, the private investigator, talks
:10:06. > :10:12.about a climate of constant pressure to deliver things? It is,
:10:12. > :10:16.you are only as good as your next story. They used to do a byline
:10:16. > :10:19.count every year, and if you didn't have enough it was goodbye. Can you
:10:19. > :10:25.imagine yourself in that sort of environment imagine yourself doing
:10:25. > :10:29.something like listening to Milly Dowler's phone message or something
:10:29. > :10:34.like that? I thought about that today, I have always been very
:10:34. > :10:38.proud to be a News of the World reporter, the biggest circulating
:10:38. > :10:41.English language newspaper in the world, and suddenly I felt ashamed
:10:41. > :10:45.because of the parents and what they had gone through. In reality,
:10:45. > :10:49.I have been thinking about it and taking a step back, it is not such
:10:49. > :10:52.a big deal. I was talking from someone from Kenya earlier today
:10:52. > :10:56.who said the journalists might have helped. They knew a bit of extra
:10:56. > :11:04.information. Are you saying you don't think it was an invasion of
:11:04. > :11:08.privacy? You don't think it broke the law, or obstructive to the
:11:08. > :11:11.police inquiry or distress for the parents, all those things are
:11:11. > :11:17.outweighed? The mistake was made, he was so keen to get new messages
:11:17. > :11:20.he delighted the old ones. That alerted the family that somebody
:11:20. > :11:25.was tampering with her phone, and it could have been her. Can you
:11:25. > :11:31.imagine yourself doing that in those circumstances at that time?
:11:31. > :11:35.I'm thinking, no I didn't, any way. I'm suggesting did, I'm asking can
:11:35. > :11:39.you imagine yourself doing it, working at the News of the World at
:11:39. > :11:43.that time? I have to say when you're investigating something, and
:11:43. > :11:48.you are really just trying to write the truth about an issue, and you
:11:48. > :11:51.are looking for an exclusive, and if that is available, then, I have
:11:51. > :11:55.been thinking to myself, would I have considered taking information
:11:55. > :11:59.from that, because you have to say it wasn't a staff reporter who did
:11:59. > :12:03.that, it was a PI, who has done it, and then rung up and said this is
:12:03. > :12:08.what's happened. Do I put my fingers in my ears and say please
:12:08. > :12:12.don't tell me. No you don't, you listen. You think that is an
:12:12. > :12:16.interesting lead. But, no, I shouldn't be trying to defend the
:12:16. > :12:20.indefensible, because it is not going to be a very popular position.
:12:20. > :12:24.Let me turn to Alastair Campbell here, how big a deal is this?
:12:24. > :12:27.has become a very big deal T would have been less of a deal if News
:12:27. > :12:31.International from the word go had taken the approach that Paul has
:12:31. > :12:34.taken the whole way through this, which is basically to say, we did
:12:34. > :12:39.terrible things, we accept they are against the law, here we are going
:12:39. > :12:42.to clear it all up. Instead of which, what has happened is the
:12:42. > :12:51.truth has been dragged kicking and screaming, lines have changed every
:12:51. > :12:54.stage of the story. You have had the business willing if away, and
:12:54. > :12:58.the police and the Government willing it away. Some stories have
:12:58. > :13:02.a tipping point, and the Milly Dowler revelations last night is
:13:02. > :13:05.the tipping point. The reason we are sitting talking about it and
:13:05. > :13:10.the newspapers keeping it going and a debate in the Commons tomorrow,
:13:10. > :13:17.is we have reached a tipping point, it is not just about the News of
:13:17. > :13:19.the World, it is about what sort of press, culture it is, and what sort
:13:19. > :13:24.of practices they have indulged in. Considering themselves above the
:13:24. > :13:30.law for some time. You know News International, do you think Rebecca
:13:30. > :13:35.Brooks can survive? It will be difficult, I think in many of the
:13:36. > :13:41.car crash interviews Alan Greenburg did today, he said the difference
:13:41. > :13:48.between Andy Coul so, n and this is the allegations were substantiated,
:13:48. > :13:51.it seems to say if the allegations are substantiated Rebecca will go.
:13:51. > :13:54.It was broadcast earlier this evening that there was no doubt at
:13:54. > :14:02.News International that the story has been substantiated and there
:14:02. > :14:07.may be worse to come. I this from Rebecca's perspective, I will take
:14:07. > :14:13.her at her word she didn't know anything about it. Paul was saying
:14:13. > :14:19.the same thing when Andy Coulson knew nothing about it, and Paul
:14:19. > :14:26.said the whole way along, he sat in the newsroom and saw what went on,
:14:26. > :14:32.and it was industrial, endemic phone hackinging throughout the
:14:32. > :14:42.newsroom. I estimate at least 10% of the population hacked into a
:14:42. > :14:46.phone, your girld friend might have done the same thing. A mother might
:14:46. > :14:51.do that to see what her son has been up to. That has been made
:14:51. > :14:54.illegal, it used to be fair game. We used to sit outside Buckingham
:14:54. > :14:59.Palace listening to Prince Charles talk about ridiculous ideas. It is
:14:59. > :15:00.not just about phone hacking. This debate in the Commons, I hope they
:15:01. > :15:03.talk about the Information Commissioner's report about this
:15:03. > :15:09.relationship between newspapers and private detectives, where there was
:15:09. > :15:12.one report, the Mail made 60 different journalists make
:15:12. > :15:16.different payments to the same private detective. The Observer was
:15:16. > :15:20.on there, we are not just talking about the News of the World. We are
:15:20. > :15:24.talking about a culture, even Paul would accept has got to change.
:15:24. > :15:28.The House of Commons is to hold an emergency debate on the scandal
:15:28. > :15:32.tomorrow, while both main party lead verse wrung their hands today
:15:32. > :15:36.and expressed their horror at what the News of the World is said to
:15:36. > :15:41.have done. The acid test is how far politicians are willing to distance
:15:41. > :15:46.themselves from the paper and the parent company. It is perceived
:15:46. > :15:51.wisdom in politics that you don't win elections without cosying up to
:15:51. > :15:56.Rupert Murdoch's publications. Plenty of politicians clear that
:15:56. > :16:02.not getting up close enough to the sun could cause them to crash and
:16:02. > :16:07.burn. Mrs Thatcher was bathed in a warm appreciative glow, Tony Blair
:16:07. > :16:11.made good relations an absolute priority. Losing the endorsement
:16:11. > :16:15.made Gordon Brown's departure more spectacular. David Cameron, the man
:16:15. > :16:19.he chose to run his press operation was a former News International
:16:19. > :16:23.editor. Want to see this influence in
:16:23. > :16:27.action? Here are some pictures of Tony Blair visiting News
:16:27. > :16:32.International in 1999. Look what happens when he comes across
:16:32. > :16:36.Rebecca Brooks, he gives her a friendly wave, before his minders
:16:36. > :16:42.want to get the cameras to film something else. No, no filming just
:16:42. > :16:49.for a bit. Patrick Diamond was an adviser in
:16:49. > :16:52.Tony Blair's Downing Street. It is inevitable, any Government in the
:16:53. > :16:55.modern age will pay heed to what the media thinks and writes, there
:16:55. > :16:58.will always be a concern with presentation. What matters is
:16:58. > :17:02.policy decisions are taken for the right reasons and the best
:17:02. > :17:06.interests of the country, and not because it seems to be popular with
:17:06. > :17:10.one newspaper or another. There are sensitive policy decisions around
:17:10. > :17:13.the issue of immigration, around the issue of the criminal justice
:17:13. > :17:16.system, and around issues to do with taxation were there has been a
:17:16. > :17:20.feeling that perhaps some newspapers have been too
:17:20. > :17:24.influential n terms of skewing the public debate in particular
:17:24. > :17:29.directions. A generation of Labour MPs were scarred by the way Sun
:17:29. > :17:34.duffed up Neil Kinnock. When Gordon Brown lost the Sun's endorsement in
:17:34. > :17:39.2009, they turned on him. Among other stories they ran a damaging
:17:39. > :17:44.account of his scrawled letter to a mother who lost her son in
:17:44. > :17:48.Afghanistan. For a politician, it is hard to shine when the Sun isn't
:17:48. > :17:53.shining. David Cameron learned the lesson too, the man he appointed to
:17:53. > :17:56.the job of handling his communications was Andy Coulson the
:17:56. > :18:00.editor of the News of the World, who resigned over the phone hacking
:18:00. > :18:04.allegation, while maintaining he was ignorant of the practice. David
:18:04. > :18:08.Cameron is very friendly with News International's chief executive,
:18:08. > :18:11.Rebecca Brooks, sharing a family meal over Christmas last year.
:18:11. > :18:17.Today Mr Cameron said he was appalled by the recent hacking
:18:17. > :18:23.allegations. If they are true, this is a truly dreadful act and a truly
:18:23. > :18:28.dreadful situation. What I have read in the papers is quite
:18:28. > :18:31.shocking. When the new Labour leader, Ed Miliband, was picking a
:18:31. > :18:35.communicatoins chief, he turned from someone from News
:18:35. > :18:41.International, Tom Baldwin, a former Times journalist. According
:18:41. > :18:51.to leaked memo in January, he told Labour MPs not to pick on News
:18:51. > :18:59.
:19:00. > :19:04.It's not just primes and leaders of the opposition - prime ministers
:19:04. > :19:07.and leaders of the opposition that come into the gravitational pull of
:19:07. > :19:10.News International. Backbench MPs looking to investigate the phone
:19:11. > :19:14.hacking allegations report being gently warned against pushing their
:19:14. > :19:18.inquiries too far. Meanwhile other MPs appear to be on very good terms
:19:18. > :19:22.with the organisation. The Commons culture, media and
:19:23. > :19:31.Sport Select Committee has the job of skrutising the activities of the
:19:31. > :19:35.broadcast - scrutinising the activities of broadcast and media
:19:35. > :19:40.operations. BSkyB sent one politician a check for the Cricket
:19:40. > :19:47.Clbu he supports. It was said this was one of many grants made to
:19:47. > :19:52.grassroots cricket. More than one member of the committee recalls the
:19:52. > :19:55.chairman using their power to stop Rebecca Brooks giving evidence.
:19:55. > :19:58.chair said we have to as a committee to think very carefully
:19:58. > :20:01.before going down that particular road, because there could be
:20:02. > :20:08.consequences for us personally. And all kinds of revelations could be
:20:08. > :20:14.dredged up in terms of our personal life. Almost as revenge for telling
:20:14. > :20:18.Rebecca Brooks to appear against her will. Mr Whitting Dale told
:20:18. > :20:22.Newsnight he was neither warning or passing on a message, just
:20:22. > :20:26.recounting what another MP had told him. He said the severity of the
:20:26. > :20:29.committee's criticism of News International, testifys to his and
:20:30. > :20:32.its independence. Plenty of other news organisations have plenty of
:20:32. > :20:36.links with politician, they wouldn't be doing their job if they
:20:36. > :20:46.didn't. But, the question is, when does contact become pressure, and
:20:46. > :20:48.
:20:48. > :20:52.when does pressure become sinister. With us knew Chris Blackhurst the
:20:52. > :20:56.new editor. And my other guests. Something you want to clear up
:20:56. > :21:00.first? Your reporter at the top of the story got it slightly wrong. We
:21:00. > :21:03.have a very good story in the Independent tomorrow saying that
:21:03. > :21:09.Rebecca Brooks actually commissioned one of the private
:21:09. > :21:13.detectives herself on a personal matter. Nothing to do with the
:21:13. > :21:17.story. He was the private detective who then went on to provide the
:21:18. > :21:22.paper with the ex-directory number of Milly Dowler's family. What that
:21:22. > :21:26.shows is her claims not to know these people and to be distant from
:21:26. > :21:30.them, really can't stand up. She did contact this bloke, she asked
:21:30. > :21:35.him to look for, something to do with a phone number, he did the job
:21:35. > :21:38.for her. It was something to do with her private life. He then went
:21:38. > :21:44.on later to provide this phone number.
:21:44. > :21:48.How does it strike you as a visitor to these lands a frequent advise to
:21:48. > :21:52.but this whole affair? Well, in many ways it is a universal problem.
:21:52. > :21:58.Because there is a deep mistrust a growing mistrust of the media.
:21:58. > :22:01.Across the Atlantic, as well as here. But the specific problem of
:22:01. > :22:05.actually paying private investigators, to collect
:22:05. > :22:11.information, which is something illegal, to hack, which is
:22:11. > :22:15.something illegal. That is very specific to here. Yes, the National
:22:15. > :22:19.Enquiryer may do it, the Star may do it, but mainstream press should
:22:19. > :22:22.not be able to get away with that. The fact it is going on year, after
:22:22. > :22:29.year, after year, is very significant. What Alastair said is
:22:29. > :22:39.the key, this has reached a tipping point, our splash tomorrow in our
:22:39. > :22:42.
:22:42. > :22:45.inaugural edition will be the back stabs with Rebecca Brooks. These
:22:45. > :22:48.guys have been able to behave in this way because people like you
:22:48. > :22:51.and political parties of the kind you belong to and are still
:22:51. > :22:54.associated with, and indeed the present Government, like to cosy up
:22:54. > :22:58.to them, because they believe they are important, do you accept a
:22:58. > :23:04.degree of blame in this? I accept a degree, but it is overstated. I
:23:04. > :23:08.always think the Sun's influence is overstated. In 1997, the Sun came
:23:08. > :23:12.out for us because they knew we would win. You flew Tony Blair to
:23:12. > :23:15.Australia to speak to Murdoch? To get them on side? Partly about that.
:23:15. > :23:19.Our aim in opposition was to get into Government. That was about
:23:19. > :23:24.reaching through to the public. So an event like that was a bit of a
:23:24. > :23:28.no-brainer for to us do. Where you have a point, Patrick Diamond made
:23:28. > :23:31.a great point in that package. He said, you can have all sorts of
:23:31. > :23:35.relationships with all sorts of people, providing you are making
:23:35. > :23:40.policy judgment ace cord to go what you genuinely believe - according
:23:40. > :23:46.to what you genuinely believe. Tony Blair would sit with Rupert and say
:23:46. > :23:51.that you are mad about Europe. I think the relationship is skewed if
:23:51. > :23:55.they are moving half way across to their ideas. You have the note from
:23:55. > :24:00.Tony Blair after the victory, "thank you for your wonderful
:24:00. > :24:06.support which really did make all the difference"? Tony is a polite
:24:06. > :24:09.kind of chap. The Sun likes winners, the reason they really went for
:24:09. > :24:13.Gordon Brown is because they were desperate for Cameron to win,
:24:13. > :24:16.because that's who they backed, in the end Cameron didn't get the
:24:16. > :24:20.majority. That is the other point, politicians worry far too much
:24:20. > :24:24.about newspapers. That is me saying it, having worried about them in
:24:24. > :24:27.the past, partly because of the changes that the on-line revolution
:24:27. > :24:32.represents, newspapers are becoming less influential.
:24:32. > :24:35.This is an apology for a wasted life, in your case? Not at all, my
:24:35. > :24:40.life was dedicated towards helping the Labour Party get into power,
:24:40. > :24:43.and then staying there. worrying about what the press was
:24:43. > :24:47.saying! Part of the job as press spokesman was to manage the press.
:24:47. > :24:51.Tony Blair's job was to get on and lead the Labour Party. The media
:24:51. > :24:56.thinks everybody sits there only thinking about the media. If you
:24:56. > :25:00.let the media define your reality, you are always making a mistake.
:25:00. > :25:03.What is given different now is managing the press is no longer
:25:03. > :25:10.possible, it is no longer five or six newspaper that is you manage.
:25:10. > :25:19.It is social media everywhere. It is Twitter, it is the Huffington
:25:19. > :25:25.Post. Stop uing ping your - plugging your paper please.
:25:25. > :25:30.What do you make of your relationship? What agree with
:25:30. > :25:38.Alastair is, when he mentioned the Sun, the perception in this country
:25:38. > :25:43.is that the Sun delivered the election,, they had the poster
:25:43. > :25:48.front page the day of Neil Kinnock, I would argue that they had already
:25:48. > :25:52.lost and the clincher was the Sheffield rally the night before.
:25:52. > :25:57.The Sun did not win that election for Labour, sorry, for the Tories.
:25:57. > :26:02.Unfortunately, it has been allowed to grow in the Westminster village
:26:02. > :26:05.and the media village. It is good marketing by the Murdoch people.
:26:05. > :26:08.this a tipping point as far as people's attitudes to the press
:26:08. > :26:14.generally, and to the News International papers in had
:26:14. > :26:21.particular? First of all, I would like to say on behalf of everybody.
:26:21. > :26:24.Don't plug your newspaper, please? All journalists, in the same way
:26:24. > :26:28.not all MPs fiddle their expenses, not all journalists got up to this.
:26:28. > :26:33.On the other hand it is a tipping point. The Milly Dowler thing today,
:26:33. > :26:39.I have never seen anger and fury, and my own wife said, she didn't
:26:39. > :26:41.care too much about Sienna Miller having her phone hacked, but she
:26:42. > :26:45.was livid about Milly Dowler. There is something very profound there.
:26:45. > :26:50.It is this point on the extent of it, the Information Commissioner I
:26:50. > :26:54.mentioned before, he did a report earlier this year, one detective
:26:54. > :26:59.employed by 31 different newspapers, right across the spectrum. Selling
:26:59. > :27:03.them illegally obtained information. That is why this debate tomorrow
:27:03. > :27:06.mustn't just be about News of the World and Rebecca Brooks. Isn't it
:27:06. > :27:09.the extent to which commercial pressures could get the media
:27:09. > :27:13.straight. Once you get organisations like Ford withdrawing
:27:13. > :27:18.their advertising from News of the World, organisations like Tesco,
:27:18. > :27:23.Virgin and various others, thinking about doing so, it is a significant
:27:23. > :27:26.pressure, from ununexpecting source. The reason they are considering
:27:26. > :27:29.withdrawing advertise something partly because of the public
:27:29. > :27:33.outrage. While the public might have been willing to put up
:27:33. > :27:37.celebrities, even the Royal Family, politicians having their phones
:27:37. > :27:42.hacked, they are absolutely outraged it happened to an ordinary
:27:42. > :27:51.family. It means it could happen to them. Also this revolving door that
:27:51. > :27:57.we see here between the News of the World and Number Ten. That is
:27:57. > :28:03.outrageous, have they run out of spin miser, do they have to go to
:28:03. > :28:08.the News of the World. Tonight on Twitter, the spokesman, Greenburg,
:28:08. > :28:15.he was trending, Rebecca Brooks was trending, Glenn Mulcaire was
:28:15. > :28:22.trending, even Rebecca Wade is trending. It is a strand of the
:28:22. > :28:26.public having their say and forcing it and keeping it on the agenda, at
:28:26. > :28:30.that time when the police, the media and the politicians want it
:28:30. > :28:36.to go away. I think the first thing the Prime Minister should say is
:28:36. > :28:40.there will be a full judicial inquiry into the practice. We live
:28:40. > :28:47.in strange age, one of the clinchers today was to hear Mumsnet
:28:47. > :28:54.was up in arms, that is much bigger than Tesco and Ford, Mumsnet.
:28:54. > :28:58.as big as the Huffington Post though! That's enough. Getting on
:28:58. > :29:03.for half the work force at Britain's last remaining train
:29:03. > :29:09.manufacturer will lose their jobs. It follow as Government decision to
:29:09. > :29:13.give the contract to make 1,200 new train carriages to the German firm,
:29:14. > :29:18.Seimens. It is an odd way to show their commitment to manufacturing
:29:18. > :29:22.in Britain. The business secretary said it was vital that Britain
:29:22. > :29:28.retains train making skills. I will be talking to the Transport
:29:28. > :29:34.Secretary in a moment. Just look at this beauty, she's one of thousands
:29:34. > :29:44.of mighty locomotives designed and built at the Derby Work a centre of
:29:44. > :29:47.
:29:47. > :29:54.railway innovation since 1840, the very dawn of the industrial era.
:29:54. > :30:00.Frank Leeming, now a local councillor, became an apresent tis
:30:00. > :30:04.in 1948, aged 15. - an apprentice in 1948, aged 15. I feel extremely
:30:04. > :30:12.proud and think I was part of this at one time, this is my heritage,
:30:12. > :30:22.and I intend to keep it. Machines like this one are a mighty
:30:22. > :30:26.symbol of Britain's once great manufacturing industry. But, as we
:30:26. > :30:30.all know, British manufacturing is not what it used to be.
:30:30. > :30:34.Or at least, that's the conventional wisdom. But the plant
:30:34. > :30:38.here in derby has been at the forefront of innovation in the
:30:38. > :30:44.railway industry. First in the age of steam, then in the diesel
:30:44. > :30:49.revolution and now with high-speed trains. I took Frank back to see
:30:49. > :30:53.how the place has changed since his day. I'm so pleased to see the
:30:53. > :30:58.standard that we are still producing. This is a superb
:30:58. > :31:05.standard, second to none anywhere in the world. Not for much longer,
:31:05. > :31:10.according to the Unite union. Unfortunately this vast engineering
:31:10. > :31:14.work could soon close, Bombardier lost a contract to a German company,
:31:14. > :31:18.Seimens, for a major Government contract to supply trains for the
:31:18. > :31:23.London Thameslink network. It leaves this unique British
:31:23. > :31:28.factory's future uncertain. The company says the loss of the
:31:28. > :31:32.�1.4 billion contract to Seimens, has led to the 1,400 job losses
:31:32. > :31:37.announced today. It says by September just one of its five
:31:37. > :31:40.production lines will be operating. Of course, resuscitating Britain's
:31:40. > :31:45.manufacturing industry has been a key goal of the coalition
:31:46. > :31:50.Government. Remember when Cameron shipped the entire cabinet up to,
:31:50. > :31:54.that's right, Derby. Why? The point of the cabinet today is to ask one
:31:54. > :31:59.fundamental question, what is it that we can do, in Government, to
:31:59. > :32:02.help the economy to rebalance, to grow, and for businesses to start
:32:02. > :32:07.up, to invest and employ people. Here is the Prime Minister in
:32:07. > :32:11.London. My approach is clear, British business should have no
:32:11. > :32:16.more vocal champion than the British Government itself.
:32:16. > :32:19.again. Our economy has become more and more unbalanced, with our
:32:19. > :32:24.fortunes hitched to a few industries in one corner of the
:32:24. > :32:27.country, while we let other sectors, like manufacturing, slide.
:32:27. > :32:31.The Government says that European rules mean it is forced to choose
:32:31. > :32:38.the best value option for tax- payers, regardless of where
:32:38. > :32:41.companies are based. Christian Wolmar is a railway historian and
:32:41. > :32:47.transport export. Most trains for Germany are made in Germany, most
:32:47. > :32:52.trains in France are made in France. Here we follow the rule. How much
:32:52. > :32:55.flexibility does the Government have under European law, could the
:32:55. > :33:00.coalition have awarded the Thameslink contract to this British
:33:00. > :33:06.factory if it wanted. The UK and the authorities that award public
:33:06. > :33:11.authorities in the UK are obsessed with the lowest price, with purely
:33:11. > :33:14.economic criteria for the award of public contracts. In the continent,
:33:14. > :33:21.in Germany, France and other continental countries, they have a
:33:21. > :33:26.more relaxed and flexible opportunity to incorporate
:33:26. > :33:30.socioeconomic criteria, taking into influence how public service
:33:30. > :33:37.contracts are award. The decision has angered workers
:33:37. > :33:42.here. These workers have a century- long commitment to the plant.
:33:42. > :33:47.was a massive disappointment, for the town it was horrendous. This
:33:47. > :33:52.plant is Britain's last toe hold in the railway industry. If it goes,
:33:53. > :33:58.the chances are this country will never build another train.
:33:58. > :34:02.With us now is the Transport Secretary, Philip Hammond. How much
:34:02. > :34:06.money was saved by giving the contract to Germany rather han
:34:06. > :34:09.having it made at the Bombardier plant - than having it made at the
:34:09. > :34:15.Bombardier plant? It is not about money saved, it is complying with
:34:15. > :34:18.the legal requirements under. there any money saved? The Seimens
:34:18. > :34:24.proposal represented better value for money. By how much? When
:34:24. > :34:30.measured in terms that were set out in the original procurement. By how
:34:30. > :34:33.much? I can't tell you that. Do you know? Of course I know, it is
:34:33. > :34:37.commercially confidential, and under the terms of the procurement
:34:37. > :34:41.I can't sit on the programme and talk about the terms of the two
:34:41. > :34:46.bids. Have you considered the cost of the unemployment? The terms of
:34:46. > :34:51.the procurement were set out by the previous Government in 2008Er
:34:51. > :34:58.Passing the buck? I'm explaining how the system works. What the guy
:34:58. > :35:03.said on there is perfectly true, it is OK to add in socioeconomic
:35:03. > :35:09.factors, but it has to be at the time you have the procurement.
:35:09. > :35:12.Labour didn't do that in 2008. If we had decided, as some people have
:35:12. > :35:16.urged us, to simply ignore the terms of the procurement that
:35:16. > :35:23.Labour set out, and to award the contract to an underbidder, first
:35:23. > :35:27.of all, we would face legal action from the successful bidder.
:35:27. > :35:30.Secondly, under terms of the EU remedies directive, we would very
:35:30. > :35:34.likely be prevented by legal intervention from signing a
:35:34. > :35:38.contract any way. Why is it that the German and French Governments
:35:38. > :35:43.are able to ensure that their trains are made largely in their
:35:43. > :35:45.own country, and you appear to be incapable of doing so? It is a very
:35:45. > :35:50.good question, and Vince Cable and I wrote to the Prime Minister the
:35:50. > :35:53.week before last. That is after the event? Following the announcement
:35:53. > :36:00.on Bombardier, wrote to the Prime Minister. After the event? And said,
:36:00. > :36:05.that we need now to look at how we operate within...Did You say, I'm
:36:05. > :36:10.sorry Prime Minister, we made a mistake? We followed the rules.
:36:10. > :36:14.have just admitted you made a mistake? I'm talking about any new
:36:14. > :36:18.procurements that we specify, we need to look very carefully at how
:36:18. > :36:22.our competitors in Europe, also operating within the same EU
:36:22. > :36:25.procurement law, can manage to achieve the outcomes they do.
:36:25. > :36:29.question is how can they do it so much better than you can?
:36:29. > :36:33.answer is, right up front, when they set out the rirms of the
:36:33. > :36:38.contract, they set out how - requirements of the contract, they
:36:38. > :36:44.set out how it will be evaluated, they include the socioeconomic
:36:44. > :36:49.factors that the expert just talked about. And we don't? In this
:36:49. > :36:54.particular contract there was no reference to the socioeconomic
:36:54. > :36:58.issues, so we couldn't. So it is a bunch of civil servants that
:36:58. > :37:01.doesn't give a dam about the consequences, someone is
:37:01. > :37:05.responsible? It is about the culture around Civil Service
:37:05. > :37:09.procurement in Britain, we have to look at it. Other countries put
:37:09. > :37:12.much more emphasis on the strategic impact of procurement. What it does
:37:12. > :37:17.to the long-term supply base in their own domestic economy. We have
:37:17. > :37:21.suggested to the Prime Minister, that we need to look at how we can
:37:21. > :37:24.make sure that in future procurements, we also give
:37:24. > :37:27.appropriate weight to that long- term strategy.
:37:27. > :37:31.You are a member of the cabinet what do you think of Rupert Murdoch
:37:31. > :37:35.being able to take over the whole of Sky, given what we have seen
:37:35. > :37:43.over the News of the World's behaviour? I think the two things
:37:43. > :37:47.are separate issues. The issues around the BSkyB bid are issues of
:37:47. > :37:51.plurality in the media. It is about the undertakings being given there.
:37:51. > :37:55.What has happened in the News of the World, if it is true, as the
:37:55. > :37:58.Prime Minister said, it is completely inexcusable, that is a
:37:58. > :38:03.separate issue. To another, once great industrial
:38:03. > :38:07.city, which has fallen victim to official incompetence and broken
:38:07. > :38:11.promises, it is Stoke-on-Trent. The issue is not jobs but houses. When
:38:11. > :38:15.we all lived in Gordon Brown's fantasy Government, the Labour
:38:15. > :38:19.Government made vast commitments to those living in sub-standard
:38:19. > :38:26.housing. Then came economic reality and budget cuts from the coalition.
:38:26. > :38:36.As a consequence, the citizens of Stoke, the promise of improvement
:38:36. > :38:41.has ruined their lives. Pauline and Barbara live on New Port Lane,
:38:41. > :38:47.nobody else does. Mark and Sharon's home is falling down, it is the
:38:47. > :38:50.last one on the block. Natalie lives on a street plaged by crime.
:38:50. > :38:56.This is Stoke-on-Trent, once an industrial heartland, its heart has
:38:56. > :39:05.been ripped out. Hundreds of terraces have been
:39:05. > :39:09.demolished, hundreds more stand derelict, all because of a scheme
:39:09. > :39:16.called Pathfinder. Doreen lived at the end. Gina. Doreen had only just
:39:16. > :39:20.spent a load of money on her house. Where are they all now? The answer
:39:20. > :39:27.is rehoused, for some evicted, the promise was new homes would be
:39:27. > :39:32.built here. Where is the new houses? We haven't got any. Why?
:39:32. > :39:36.want to know why. They won't invest. They have no money they say. I know
:39:36. > :39:42.they have more money, it is for private buyers, they won't invest
:39:42. > :39:47.anything. We have had things put in the paper who they are going to
:39:47. > :39:50.build, and it hasn't materialised. House building has stopped,
:39:50. > :39:54.demolition is delayed, what was supposed to be the planned
:39:54. > :40:02.regeneration of a community has turned into a nightmare. We have
:40:02. > :40:07.been degenerated, not regenerated. We used to be a community, right
:40:07. > :40:14.Pauline. We had our own shops. had a butcher's, a grocer's, we got
:40:14. > :40:20.the club. We want it back as a community. We
:40:20. > :40:23.want some life into the place. Instead of rats running all over
:40:23. > :40:31.the place. Do you think you will live to see this place come back as
:40:31. > :40:37.a community? No. No. Definitely not. There is no community left. This is
:40:37. > :40:43.no story of gradual decline. It is a story of a master plan. Of social
:40:43. > :40:47.engineering, of spending cuts, and a broken promise. Stoke was already
:40:47. > :40:52.in trouble, thousands of pottery jobs were moved offshore. Property
:40:52. > :41:01.values had collapsed, even as, in the rest of Britain, a property
:41:01. > :41:06.boom took off. That made Stoke an ideal candidate for Pathfinder. In
:41:06. > :41:10.2003, Labour's deputy Prime Minister, John Prescott, launched
:41:10. > :41:15.the Pathfinder plan, 90,000 terraced house, in seven cities,
:41:15. > :41:20.would be cleared and replaced with new-build housing, thousands more
:41:20. > :41:24.would be renovated, property values would rise. But last October, the
:41:24. > :41:28.coalition, which had always opposed the scheme, cancelled it. The
:41:28. > :41:32.promised homes will not be built, Pathfinder is over. But not for
:41:32. > :41:41.those who still have to live in the middle of all this.
:41:41. > :41:51.It is not nice, it looks dead rough. You look like you are living here
:41:51. > :41:51.
:41:51. > :41:55.on your own, there is no-one here. This couple have been trying to
:41:55. > :41:59.move, but are stuck? Crime is through the roof. It is scary to
:41:59. > :42:03.live here. We have to leave the lights on in the house all the time.
:42:03. > :42:07.Even throughout the night so people know we're still in here, if you
:42:07. > :42:11.smell smoke you instantly think next door is on fire, they are
:42:11. > :42:17.setting fire to every empty house, it is not being dealt with at all.
:42:17. > :42:26.It is constant fear of what could happen. So nobody lives here?
:42:26. > :42:32.are people on both sides that live in this. Brendan Nevin is a housing
:42:32. > :42:36.expert who helped implement the Pathfinder he is scheme. He thinks
:42:36. > :42:40.it is putting lives at risk. This was sealed up only last week. That
:42:40. > :42:44.is an arson risk. There is somebody living next door. Somebody lives
:42:44. > :42:50.there. If they get in, if somebody gets in there and torches that,
:42:50. > :42:54.these people are in real trouble. Clearance areas are fundamentally
:42:54. > :43:01.dangerous people and they need to be got down very, very quickly.
:43:01. > :43:04.Even if we can't rehouse people and rebuild things, why can't we get
:43:04. > :43:09.the last people out and make it safe. At the moment there is no
:43:09. > :43:12.money to buy people out, the money was cut off on 1st April, there
:43:12. > :43:17.used to be money to manage and clean these place, that money is
:43:17. > :43:23.gone. The scheme was scrapped eight years in to a 15-year agreement.
:43:23. > :43:27.Those who drew the blueprints assumed even if the coalition
:43:27. > :43:31.scrapped the scheme existing commitments would be met? We have
:43:31. > :43:36.no plan or guidance, we have been left to our own devices with the
:43:36. > :43:41.money pulled at short notice. has now �5 million to put the
:43:41. > :43:44.scheme to rest. After that it will rely on market forces. There is
:43:44. > :43:48.always consensus between political parties that you have to finish
:43:48. > :43:51.things that have been started, even though the policy has to change.
:43:51. > :43:55.There was a consensus to make sure no place was left to die, and no
:43:55. > :43:58.place where the market wouldn't work. We have abandoned that now.
:43:58. > :44:03.There seems to be an explicit policy whereby places will live or
:44:03. > :44:12.die by the market. This is a massive change in British political
:44:12. > :44:15.history. Where it was done with foresight, Pathfinder worked, this
:44:15. > :44:23.council estate used to be one of the roughest in Britain. It was
:44:24. > :44:30.plaged with vandalism, dodgy pubs and crime. But Maggie Carter sorted
:44:30. > :44:35.that out, she was part of a community group that helped shape
:44:35. > :44:38.the Pathfinder group on the ground. There was apathy, but once people
:44:38. > :44:41.realised they weren't going to be trodden on but they were going to
:44:41. > :44:46.be talked to and consulted with, they started to come out and get on
:44:46. > :44:52.board. Here the rebuilding was done within a short time scale. The
:44:52. > :44:56.result, new and refurbished homes, on the site of previously sub-
:44:56. > :45:00.standard ones. Was it ever in the back of your mind what happens if
:45:00. > :45:04.the money runs out? Yes. thought about it? Yes. Why didn't
:45:04. > :45:08.the people planning Stoke think about it? I don't know.
:45:08. > :45:14.But, with the money gone, she's worried that even here, progress
:45:14. > :45:19.could be reversed. I'm not as stupid as to say things couldn't go
:45:19. > :45:22.back to what they were, because I am aware that we are on a knife
:45:22. > :45:32.edge. Do you mean socially, in terms of crime and drugs. Yeah.
:45:32. > :45:33.
:45:33. > :45:37.Even here. Hanly, in Stoke, was where Arnold
:45:37. > :45:42.Bennett chronicled the life of the potters. They are now a few niche
:45:42. > :45:50.business, many remember the hey day. At the community centre they are
:45:50. > :45:55.trying to keep things jolly. But this is the last bingo session. Lee,
:45:55. > :45:59.the community worker, employed under the Pathfinder scheme, is to
:45:59. > :46:04.lose his job, the money has run out. Personally I think we should have
:46:04. > :46:09.taken a section, demolished and rebuilt it. The people who still
:46:09. > :46:14.lived here could have moved on into those properties and continued in
:46:14. > :46:19.that way. Build and move, build and move process. Anybody you may speak
:46:19. > :46:23.to today would say that to you. That's where we feel it has gone
:46:23. > :46:28.wrong slightly. They have demolished and not built, so people
:46:28. > :46:33.are stuck. It has split the community.
:46:33. > :46:37.Pathfinder was supposed to revive places like this, now, in 12 cities
:46:37. > :46:45.across the Midlands and the north of England, the scheme is winding
:46:45. > :46:52.up. Communities are left high and dry.
:46:52. > :46:57.What haepsd here is a disSASer - what's happened here is a disaster,
:46:57. > :47:03.one charge levied is a Labour Government that refused to listen
:47:03. > :47:07.to local people. The other is spite, many believe the coalition doesn't
:47:07. > :47:11.care what happens to the blighted cities of the Midlands and the
:47:11. > :47:17.north. The council, the Government would they like to live in the mess
:47:17. > :47:22.we are living in. You feel like a secondhand citizen.
:47:22. > :47:29.Beyond the distress and poverty, on these streets, what's left of them,
:47:29. > :47:39.is a deep distrust, never again will the words "rebegin "and
:47:39. > :47:56.
:47:56. > :48:01."renewal" mean - "regeneration" and No time for the newspapers tonight,
:48:01. > :48:11.apparently, we have delighted you long enough, see you tomorrow, time
:48:11. > :48:32.
:48:32. > :48:37.The last vestiges of heat have now drained away from eastern England,
:48:37. > :48:40.it is a cooler outlook, with a number of heavy showers around.
:48:40. > :48:46.Persistent rain across Scotland. Elsewhere, with a chance of saying
:48:47. > :48:50.something in the way of sunshine. Sharpish showers scattered around.
:48:51. > :48:54.Rattling around on a stiff breeze in the southern half of the UK.
:48:54. > :48:57.Cooler than Tuesday. We are stuck in the high teens, probably not
:48:57. > :49:02.that high across parts of the South-West, where the wind will
:49:02. > :49:06.freshen up, bringing heavy, squally showers as we end the day across
:49:06. > :49:10.Devon and Cornwall and the south west. The limited brightness to the
:49:10. > :49:14.east of the month tains, not a friendly day.
:49:14. > :49:18.Across Northern Ireland, some sunshine, heavy showers, light
:49:18. > :49:22.winds here, those showers could linger for a while. Persistently
:49:22. > :49:26.wet scene across a good chunk of central Scotland where there could
:49:27. > :49:29.be over an inch of rain. Further showers to come widely across
:49:29. > :49:34.northern parts of the UK on Wednesday and Thursday. Difficult
:49:34. > :49:39.to pin down the detail, but very few places staying entirely dry, it
:49:39. > :49:43.will be cool, further south, some sunshine, but showers never too far
:49:43. > :49:47.away. Temperatures a lot lower than we saw to start the week. This is