:00:08. > :00:12.There will be a public inquiry into how and why the News of the World
:00:12. > :00:18.hacked into people's phone messages. It reflect as rising tide of public
:00:18. > :00:21.outrage, and tonight it got worse. The families of soldiers killed in
:00:21. > :00:25.Afghanistan have been told it may have happened to them as well.
:00:26. > :00:30.I feel so appalled by what has happened, murder victims, terrorist
:00:30. > :00:34.victims, who have had their phones hacked is quite disgraceful. With
:00:34. > :00:38.the biggest press scandals in modern times getting worse by the
:00:38. > :00:42.day, I am afraid he hasn't shown the leadership necessary today.
:00:43. > :00:46.Even Rupert Murdoch claims to be scandalised by what his people did,
:00:46. > :00:51.yet he also affirms his support for the woman who was his editor and is
:00:51. > :00:55.now his chief executive. What is to be done with an organisation which
:00:55. > :01:00.treats common humanity and the law with equal contempt. Is the British
:01:00. > :01:03.public, in a fit of morality, in any state to make judgment about
:01:03. > :01:09.the limits of journalism. Also tonight, Richard Watson learns from
:01:09. > :01:14.a former member of the News of the World team, how his paper bought
:01:14. > :01:18.policemen. That would be the favourite rendezvous point where
:01:18. > :01:24.the policeman or contributor would drive in, the person would go up
:01:25. > :01:29.get into the car and hand over the envelope. Everyone knows fid fillia
:01:29. > :01:37.is an international crime, but Interpol has said Britain is
:01:37. > :01:42.failing to track down paedophiles. Are we more content with ourselves?,
:01:42. > :01:48.this man thinks the answer is yes, and David Cameron is listening to
:01:48. > :01:51.him. There hasn't been a wave of moral
:01:52. > :01:56.outrage like it for years. Today as it emerged that even families of
:01:56. > :02:00.some of the victims of the July London bombings, six years ago, had
:02:00. > :02:02.their phones hacked, the tide of resentment towards the News of the
:02:02. > :02:06.World grew even stronger. They found out about it last night. The
:02:06. > :02:09.anniversary of the bombings is tomorrow. Just before we came on
:02:09. > :02:14.air, news that families of men killed in Afghanistan have been
:02:15. > :02:17.warned they may have been hacked. Even Rupert Murdoch affected to be
:02:17. > :02:22.shocked, there was universal condemnation in parliament, and
:02:22. > :02:26.such public hostility that a shrew of companies are pulling their
:02:26. > :02:30.advertising. First tonight, Michael Crick reports.
:02:30. > :02:34.This morning's front page headlines foretold what many MPs are saying
:02:34. > :02:39.tonight was a big, big day in British politics.
:02:39. > :02:44.Indeed, it was. It was the day when we may have seen significant tweaks
:02:44. > :02:49.in the way in which power is distributed in this country. When
:02:49. > :02:54.politicians asserted themselves over the media. With MPs, not just
:02:54. > :02:57.crying halt, to the practices of tabloid journalist, but also crying
:02:57. > :03:04.halt to the expansion of the Murdoch empire.
:03:04. > :03:08.Day when backbenchers took the initiative, rather than ministers.
:03:08. > :03:11.And also, almost incidently, the day when Ed Miliband finally
:03:11. > :03:15.stamped his mark as Labour Party leader.
:03:15. > :03:20.At Question Time David Cameron announced there would be an inquiry,
:03:20. > :03:24.maybe two inquiries. But thepm seemed rattled at times. And Ed
:03:24. > :03:27.Miliband judged the mood rather better. With the biggest press
:03:27. > :03:32.scandal in modern times getting worse by the day, I'm afraid he
:03:32. > :03:36.hasn't shown the leadership necessary today. He hasn't shown
:03:36. > :03:38.the leadership necessary on BSkyB, he hasn't shown the leadership
:03:38. > :03:44.necessary on News International. Isn't it the case f the public is
:03:44. > :03:50.to have confidence in him, he has to calm the thing that is most
:03:50. > :03:55.difficult, he has to accept he made a catastrophic error of judgment by
:03:55. > :03:59.bringing Andy Coulson into the heart of his Downing Street machine.
:03:59. > :04:03.I take full responsibility for everyone I employ, for everyone I
:04:03. > :04:08.appoint, and I take responsibility for everything my Government does.
:04:08. > :04:13.What this Government is doing is making sure that the fact the
:04:13. > :04:15.public, and I feel, so appalled by what has happened, murder victims,
:04:15. > :04:18.terrorist victims, who have had their phones hacked is quite
:04:18. > :04:21.disgraceful. That is why it is important there is a full police
:04:21. > :04:26.investigation w all the powers that they need. That's why it is
:04:26. > :04:29.important we have sthos inquiries to get to the bottom of what -
:04:29. > :04:33.those inquiries to get to the bottom of what went wrong. We also
:04:33. > :04:38.need to inquire how to improve the ethics and morals of in this
:04:38. > :04:40.country make sure they improve for the future. That is what needs to
:04:40. > :04:44.be done, that is what this Government is doing, and we don't
:04:44. > :04:49.have to take lectures from him about it. Today's emergency debate
:04:49. > :04:54.began with a powerful speech from the Labour MP who has called it.
:04:54. > :05:02.have let one man have far too great a sway over our national life. At
:05:02. > :05:09.least Beryl's Last Year lives in Italy, but Murdoch - Berlussconi
:05:09. > :05:14.lives in Italy, but Murdoch lives here but pays his tax elsewhere. No
:05:14. > :05:18.country would allow him to have a monoply on sports rights and news
:05:18. > :05:23.and movies. America, the home of the aggressive entrepreneur doesn't
:05:23. > :05:26.allow it, we shouldn't. There was much on Murdoch's British
:05:26. > :05:29.Lieutenant, Rebekah Brooks, and Andy Coulson, the former News of
:05:30. > :05:34.the World editor, who quit in January as David Cameron's chief
:05:34. > :05:39.spin doctor. It is now reported police have e-
:05:39. > :05:44.mails showing Coulson knew of illegal payments to police officers.
:05:44. > :05:48.Was Andy Coulson aware of this, and did he tell either the Prime
:05:48. > :05:52.Minister, or anyone else in Number Ten about these e-mails? Because if
:05:52. > :05:56.he did, it would mean the Prime Minister and members of the
:05:56. > :06:02.Government would have been aware of this information before the
:06:02. > :06:05.Metropolitan Police. It is important that the Prime Minister
:06:05. > :06:08.provide some immediate answers in response to this question. Only a
:06:08. > :06:13.couple of Tories were willing to come to the aid of Murdoch's people.
:06:13. > :06:17.I have to say that the relish with which the revelations have been
:06:17. > :06:21.greeted by some, seeking to take on the Murdoch empire, or engaging in
:06:21. > :06:26.political pot shots, strikes me as opportunistic to say the least.
:06:26. > :06:30.other big issue, should, or could, the Culture Secretary, Jeremy Hunt,
:06:30. > :06:36.delay his decision on whether Murdoch's News Corporation can take
:06:36. > :06:42.over the whole of BSkyB. Given that there is clear evidence of serious
:06:43. > :06:46.criminality on the part of some people at News International, of in
:06:46. > :06:51.any event, without necessarily referring it to the Competition
:06:51. > :06:56.Commission, to calling a pause, pending further evidence.
:06:56. > :07:01.Ministers said today that legally they couldn't pause, or block the
:07:01. > :07:05.BSkyB takeover, on the grounds of the phone hacking scandal. But it
:07:05. > :07:10.seems that Jeremy Hunt is likely to take his time now in considering
:07:11. > :07:15.the more than 40,000 responses there have been to his latest
:07:15. > :07:23.consultation exercise on the takeover. Another idea much mooted
:07:23. > :07:29.by MPs, is that the regulator, Ofcom, could perhaps decide, that
:07:29. > :07:33.News Corporation weren't now fit and...
:07:33. > :07:38.There is some technical problem with that, we can approach the
:07:38. > :07:41.subject in a lively fashion because we contacted 24 News International
:07:41. > :07:45.journalists today, asking them to defend their employers, not a
:07:45. > :07:50.single one of them wanted to talk to us tonight. However, we did
:07:50. > :07:55.strike lucky on number 25, with Bill Emmott, former editor of the
:07:55. > :08:01.Economist, not staffer there, but as a freelanceer writes columns for
:08:01. > :08:07.the Times, we are ajoined by Simon Hughes, the Liberal Democrat, and
:08:07. > :08:13.Conservative backbencher and barrister, Anna Soubry.
:08:13. > :08:17.You are embarrassed with this title now? I would be more embarrassed if
:08:17. > :08:22.I was with News of the World or the other tabloid papers. There are
:08:22. > :08:25.some issues here, one the legality, the police not investigating, the
:08:25. > :08:29.relationship with politics at the top of these organisations, and at
:08:29. > :08:34.the top of politics, and then the fact that this is not going to be
:08:34. > :08:38.limited to the News of the World, I'm afraid. We need to explore it,
:08:38. > :08:42.what's going on in other tabloids as well. You are not ashamed to be
:08:42. > :08:45.working for News International, given what's being revealed? I am
:08:46. > :08:49.ashamed by what is going on in News of the World, absolutely, I'm
:08:49. > :08:55.ashamed of any organisation that does. That I write columns for them
:08:55. > :09:01.on an independent basis. But if they refuse to carry on a proper
:09:01. > :09:04.investigation of this, if they refuse to really sort this out,
:09:04. > :09:07.obviously anyone like me has to consider their position of writing
:09:08. > :09:11.for such an organisation, absolutely. Simon Hughes, do you
:09:11. > :09:15.believe that Rupert Murdoch is embarrassed and finds the whole
:09:16. > :09:22.thing deplorable? He has be hugely embarrassed. The problem for him is
:09:22. > :09:27.this has been visible, increasingly, for five years. I was interviewed
:09:27. > :09:31.in the autumn of 2006, the trial happened at the beginning of 2007,
:09:31. > :09:36.the issue, therefore, was on their agenda, on Rupert Murdoch ace
:09:36. > :09:39.agenda since then. It is all very well now this set of revelations
:09:39. > :09:43.coming daily to show her collaborating fully, as they are
:09:43. > :09:46.since the beginning of the year. This is clearly been something on
:09:46. > :09:54.their watch. As was rightly said, not only on their watch, many other
:09:54. > :09:58.tabloid papers too, four years with police connivance. It reflects very
:09:58. > :10:02.badly on your leader's judgment, that he was prepared to take into
:10:02. > :10:06.the heart of Government a man so intimately involved in practices
:10:06. > :10:11.like this, I refer to Andy Coulson? I know who you refer to, I don't
:10:11. > :10:16.think that is fair. It was only until today that there was
:10:16. > :10:23.revelations about e-mails and his possible knowledge. Because, of
:10:23. > :10:27.course, he had always denied knowing anything about what
:10:27. > :10:30.happened before becoming editor. He always said that. I'm assuming that
:10:30. > :10:35.the Prime Minister asked him and he made it clear that he didn't know
:10:36. > :10:38.anything about it, so on that basis, he was taken on. But, of course, he
:10:39. > :10:43.then left. So the Prime Minister was just
:10:43. > :10:48.naive was he? I don't think he was naive, I don't know. All I can
:10:48. > :10:52.assume is that what the Prime Minister did was that he asked him,
:10:52. > :10:56.and he gave him assurances, and what more can you do if you take
:10:56. > :11:00.somebody on their word. But actually I don't think that's the
:11:00. > :11:04.big issue by any means. I think the two issues which we have already
:11:04. > :11:12.identified are obviously how News of the World and other newspapers
:11:12. > :11:16.have operated, since at least 2002, and of course, the role notably of
:11:16. > :11:20.the Met, and I'm afraid the police are coming out of this extremely
:11:20. > :11:25.badly. We will explore some of the issues for the police shortly.
:11:25. > :11:30.Firstly, on this question of who is to carry the can for this, can
:11:31. > :11:34.Rebekah Brooks survive? We're both lawyers and people have to have
:11:34. > :11:41.something proved against them, Andy Coulson left his job at the News of
:11:41. > :11:44.the World, because on his watch it was proved that somebody had been
:11:44. > :11:47.doing guilty practices, and he went from that job. If it is proved that
:11:47. > :11:51.other people, and I know other people have been arrested, if it is
:11:51. > :11:55.proved that other people were acting, and Rebekah, as the editor,
:11:55. > :12:01.was aware of that, she clearly is going to be culpable. The good
:12:01. > :12:05.thing about the new investigation s that, again, because I know from
:12:05. > :12:08.the interviews I have had with the police, they are investigating much
:12:08. > :12:12.more widely. They have to look at not just the people who went out to
:12:12. > :12:19.do the job, but the people who commissioned them, collected the
:12:19. > :12:25.benefit of that job, or who knew about it. Do you think this time
:12:25. > :12:30.they get might - might get it right? I think their reputation is
:12:30. > :12:35.at stake. The new Met Commissioner has to realise he has to rescue the
:12:35. > :12:39.reputation of his force. What is your judgment, do you think Rebekah
:12:40. > :12:44.Brooks will survive? I'm ashamed she has not resigned already. I
:12:44. > :12:48.agree legally with Simon. We can't, as it were, demand for her to be
:12:48. > :12:52.hanged and drawn and quartered immediately, she should have
:12:52. > :12:57.resigned. You would have resigned Jeremy, I would have resigned.
:12:57. > :13:01.would have resigned if it happened in the Economist. No doubt about it.
:13:01. > :13:06.Given what Tom Watson said today, on the basis of what he said in his
:13:06. > :13:10.speech is accurate, and nobody has said it is accurate, then, that is,
:13:10. > :13:20.this is so devastating against her. Because, of course, his allegation
:13:20. > :13:20.
:13:20. > :13:27.is that she was, can we say it. was all under parliamentary
:13:27. > :13:31.privilege? I will say then if what he said is true it is devastating.
:13:31. > :13:36.The press have been drinked at what is called the last chance saloon
:13:36. > :13:39.for 20 years now, what can a public inquiry do? Firstly, you have to
:13:39. > :13:43.choose somebody who is entirely separate from all the sorts of
:13:43. > :13:48.investigations, that does mean a judge. Some colleagues were making
:13:48. > :13:54.the point, a judge not a member of a Masonic lodge, or the golf group,
:13:54. > :13:59.not part of the network of people, where police chief officers,
:13:59. > :14:02.somebody who can all for evidence, insisting people answer, and who
:14:02. > :14:05.has entire independence and reputation, that has to be the way
:14:05. > :14:11.forward. I think it is certainly a question now of how you negotiate
:14:11. > :14:15.the terms of reference for that inquiry, and then separately the
:14:15. > :14:18.inquiry to do with the police. you have faith into inquiries into
:14:18. > :14:22.the way the press works? No, the key point of the inquiry should be
:14:22. > :14:27.into the police, actually. It is the relationship between the police
:14:27. > :14:34.and the press that an inquiry could expose, the press, no. I think that
:14:34. > :14:37.the press, I'm afraid, have shown a willful disregard for legality, for
:14:37. > :14:41.morality, for integrity, they deserve almost everything they can
:14:41. > :14:47.get. As a defender of freedom of speech, I can't say I want
:14:47. > :14:51.statutory regulation, of course I don't, but, they have laughed at
:14:51. > :14:56.self-regulation. It has proved to be farcical, absolutely farcical.
:14:56. > :15:00.And I know that when I introduced my Private Members Bill, it was
:15:00. > :15:03.with a heavy heart, I would much rather that the press regulated
:15:03. > :15:07.themselves properly and responsibly. But unfortunately, time and time
:15:07. > :15:11.again, they have shown that they absolutely cannot. I truthfully
:15:11. > :15:14.don't know what the answer to that is. If criminal offences were
:15:14. > :15:17.committed here, the law is already adequate? The police are the
:15:17. > :15:21.problem, the police should be enforcing the law, they are not,
:15:21. > :15:27.because they are being bribed by the press. The Information
:15:27. > :15:31.Commissioner produced a very robust report in 2006, that categorised
:15:31. > :15:35.thousands of breaches by a whole stream of titles. On many
:15:35. > :15:41.newspapers? Many newspapers. Again what was said in parliament today,
:15:41. > :15:45.I appreciate I can't repeat it, if again that was true, the way that
:15:45. > :15:49.the police have behaved, their failure in the face of clear
:15:49. > :15:52.perversions of the course of public justice, and other criminal
:15:53. > :15:57.offences, their failure to investigate and prosecute that,
:15:57. > :16:01.should cause us all really concern. What is your reading of the public
:16:01. > :16:04.mood. Clearly, advertisers are, many advertisers are saying, our
:16:04. > :16:08.customers are saying don't have anything to do with this title,
:16:08. > :16:11.which Murdoch will really care about, because it will have a
:16:11. > :16:16.commercial consequence. Is your feeling that the public will start
:16:16. > :16:20.boycotting this title or what? that is my view. But they buy it in
:16:20. > :16:24.such a large numbers, it is such a successful product? It is, but I
:16:24. > :16:28.think what has happened is so appalling, so obscene, for all the
:16:28. > :16:32.reasons that are absolutely obvious, I think there is going to be a mood
:16:33. > :16:36.swing against the News of the World, and indeed, if they are not careful,
:16:36. > :16:40.other newspapers that begin, as they have done for a long time,
:16:40. > :16:45.overstep the line like this. Other newspapers unthe same title that
:16:45. > :16:49.have hardly reported the events of the last few days. That is the
:16:49. > :16:53.thing to me that would be brilliant, said that in the House today. On
:16:53. > :16:56.Sunday, almost nobody bought the News of the World, that is the real
:16:56. > :17:00.indictment. I think the big thing that has changed, I said from the
:17:00. > :17:04.beginning, if it was a matter of politicians and the Royal Family
:17:04. > :17:08.and celebrities, bluntly that was a pretty limited interest group, once
:17:08. > :17:11.it started being something that "ordinary people" were aware of,
:17:11. > :17:14.then it became important. We never expected it to be in the category
:17:14. > :17:18.we are in now, which is ordinary people at their most vulnerable.
:17:18. > :17:23.What is your reading of it, as a veteran newspaper man what do you
:17:23. > :17:27.think will be the consequences? think the consequences will be a
:17:27. > :17:31.huge call for statutory regulation of the press. I am afraid I'm
:17:31. > :17:34.cynical about the public's ability to call for this, I think that they
:17:35. > :17:38.will boycott the News of the World for a week and then start buying it
:17:38. > :17:43.the week after. I think publicly, politically, in the rest of the
:17:43. > :17:48.media, there is going to be such a furore about this, it will be very
:17:48. > :17:53.hard to stave off much tougher regulation of what we do. That is a
:17:53. > :17:56.terrible turn of events. Our guest here, Simon Hughes,
:17:56. > :18:00.claimed today that there was endemic corruption in the police
:18:00. > :18:02.because of the way that the News of the World paid money to officers.
:18:02. > :18:06.The commissioner of the Metropolitan Police says evidence
:18:06. > :18:09.from the paper suggests that what he called a "small number "of
:18:09. > :18:13.police officers were involved. The arguments about how widespread
:18:13. > :18:17.it was are raging. But how was it done.
:18:17. > :18:21.One for Richard Watson. The sometimes shadowy relationship
:18:21. > :18:24.between police officers and journalists now centre stage in the
:18:24. > :18:27.phone hacking scandal. News International confirmed payments
:18:27. > :18:31.were made by News of the World for access to confidential information
:18:31. > :18:35.yesterday. Now we have been told how they did it.
:18:35. > :18:38.Our source, who has had sight of the evidence, tells us that the
:18:38. > :18:42.Metropolitan Police have now identified three or four officers,
:18:42. > :18:46.who were paid by News of the World. We are told the sums of money
:18:46. > :18:50.involved are tens of thousands of pounds. Paid by one or two senior
:18:50. > :18:54.journalists, and the transactions were known about by one or two
:18:54. > :18:58.senior managers. Tonight, we reveal the extraordinary tactic used by
:18:58. > :19:03.the police officers to cover their tracks.
:19:03. > :19:07.Corrupt officers face a big problem, checks on telephone numbers,
:19:07. > :19:10.addresses or criminal records made for a journalist paying them cash,
:19:10. > :19:14.leave an electronic audit trail, which could be used to expose them
:19:14. > :19:17.later on. A former News of the World insider told us how they got
:19:17. > :19:21.around it. We have agreed to protect his identity, because he
:19:21. > :19:25.now works undercover. The rules they came up with, is they signed
:19:25. > :19:29.up certain journalists within the organisation as confidential police
:19:29. > :19:35.informants, and they went through the whole charade of signing them
:19:35. > :19:41.up. They would be assigned code names, pseudonyms, and that would
:19:41. > :19:44.be registered as a confidential al, reliable police source. When they
:19:44. > :19:48.carried out the converting of a name and address into a phone
:19:48. > :19:53.number or visa versa, they would tap into the system, information
:19:53. > :19:56.received from X, Frank, Jim, reliable informant, that this
:19:56. > :19:59.person is dealing in drugs and using this phone number. We
:19:59. > :20:03.converted the phone number to find out what the address was, or to
:20:03. > :20:06.find out what the phone number was that he was dealing with.
:20:06. > :20:11.perfect cover? Yeah. This account has been confirmed by a second
:20:11. > :20:15.source, this time a former senior policeman from the Met, who used to
:20:15. > :20:19.work in the anti-corruption unit. He told us setting up bogus
:20:19. > :20:23.informant accounts was one of the best ways of concealing corruption.
:20:23. > :20:26.Other cases of real concern are emerging, detectives examining
:20:26. > :20:32.phone hacking evidence, part of Operation Weeting, have contacted
:20:32. > :20:40.the family of one of those murdered in the London bombings in 2005.
:20:40. > :20:44.of my clients, whose number has been confirmed, was an ex-directory
:20:44. > :20:47.landline. At the time of the bombings, the families were giving
:20:47. > :20:53.every phone number they had to the police, in the hope that they would
:20:53. > :20:58.get a phone call to give them some news. So, you have to ask yourself,
:20:58. > :21:06.where on earth this journalist has got an ex-directory landline number
:21:06. > :21:10.from. The conclusion, I know, a lot of people are drawing at the moment,
:21:10. > :21:16.is it must have come from the police. In an exchange with MPs in
:21:16. > :21:19.2003, which now looks remarkably frank, the then editor of the Sun,
:21:19. > :21:24.Rebekah Brooks, admitted sometimes money changed hands. We have paid
:21:24. > :21:26.the police for information in the past. Rebekah Brooks is now chief
:21:26. > :21:31.executive of News International. Her boss, Rupert Murdoch, said
:21:31. > :21:35.phone hacking and police payments had been deplorable and
:21:35. > :21:39.unacceptable, but he backed her today. One source told me that News
:21:39. > :21:43.International have passed the point of any resistance, and are passing
:21:43. > :21:48.all incriminating documents to the police. Our former journalist
:21:48. > :21:51.contact explained just how rife paying policemen had become. If you
:21:51. > :21:56.look along Wapping highway, going towards Limehouse, pass the plant,
:21:56. > :22:03.there is a drive-in McDonald's, that would be the favourite point
:22:03. > :22:07.where the police officer or contributor would pull in, and the
:22:07. > :22:09.pulling in and handing over envelopes. If a police officer
:22:09. > :22:12.releases confidential information to a journalist for money, that
:22:12. > :22:18.police officer is corrupt and he should be dismissed immediately and
:22:18. > :22:23.face a trial. There is no argument about it. One more development
:22:23. > :22:26.tonight, we have just been told that another person, only
:22:26. > :22:30.peripherally connected to the 7/7 bombings, who gave their number to
:22:30. > :22:35.the police, was also targeted. This is fuelling suspicion that an
:22:35. > :22:40.entire list of phone number was sold.
:22:41. > :22:43.With us is the former Metropolitan Police commander, and Bob Milton,
:22:43. > :22:46.and the former deputy Prime Minister, John Prescott. Are you
:22:46. > :22:50.familiar with this technique for money changing hands? It sounds
:22:50. > :22:56.very familiar to the way that we would actually handle informants
:22:56. > :22:59.within the police service, the same methodology is being used. How
:22:59. > :23:03.protect the identity of an informant, it sounds exactly the
:23:03. > :23:07.same. Whoever has put the system in place, seemed to have a knowledge
:23:07. > :23:12.of how to run covert sources. Prescott, when you look at this
:23:12. > :23:21.scandal, are you embarrassed by the way your party kosied up to News
:23:21. > :23:24.International? There was far too much cosying up to News
:23:24. > :23:29.International by all the parties, I used to complain about it in
:23:29. > :23:32.Government. Perhaps people think these guys are important to winning
:23:32. > :23:36.an election, I didn't hold that view. Anybody with a special
:23:36. > :23:40.relationship with Murdoch and his operation should be ashamed of it.
:23:40. > :23:44.Anybody? This guy just used people, that's clear. He used people, he
:23:44. > :23:47.used the reporters to get the information he wanted, for
:23:47. > :23:51.exclusive stories. We now know it is criminal acts. We know they are
:23:51. > :23:55.involved in payments to the police. I have to say this issue was being
:23:55. > :23:59.managed since 2006, when Mr Murdoch comes in and tells us we are now
:23:59. > :24:02.going to be transparent, that was in January, when he apologised. Now
:24:02. > :24:05.we have a situation where they are giving us the prime ministers to
:24:05. > :24:10.the police issue. That must have been available, and has been
:24:10. > :24:14.available for years. So it was a mistake, for your party to get so
:24:14. > :24:19.close to Murdoch? Individuals get close to them. Murdoch only invites
:24:19. > :24:22.the top crowd. I had an invitation, I didn't go, I have never been to
:24:22. > :24:25.one of his things. The other thing raised is the question of the
:24:25. > :24:29.behaviour of the police, these police investigations have been
:24:29. > :24:32.pathetic and utter failures so far, why is that? I have no idea, I have
:24:32. > :24:36.no inside information on this, there is a number of reasons it
:24:36. > :24:40.could be, one just simply poor judgment. Not an understanding of
:24:40. > :24:44.how serious this matter was, a cursory investigation, poorly done,
:24:44. > :24:48.and dismissed, it is not until now we realise how serious this is.
:24:48. > :24:52.This is a very bad day for the Metropolitan Police Service, it is
:24:52. > :24:55.a bad day for the press and it is an even worse day for the victims
:24:55. > :25:01.of terrorism, and serious crime, and the families of soldiers who
:25:01. > :25:04.have lost their lives. I cannot stress how saddened I am by the
:25:05. > :25:13.performance of the Metropolitan Police on this. For someone for
:25:13. > :25:16.years who has been trying to get out of there that my phone has been
:25:16. > :25:20.hacked. It is charityability, and I understand why you are saying it,
:25:20. > :25:23.on the one hand it is because they felt there was so many things to
:25:23. > :25:26.investigate, they came together with the Crown Prosecution Service
:25:26. > :25:30.in correspondence with me, and say we have come to an agreement, as
:25:30. > :25:33.long as we have two that is it. There was sacks of evidence. The
:25:33. > :25:38.real offence was to say there is no evidence of you being hacked at all.
:25:38. > :25:41.It took a commission Tory come along and say they were wrong. It
:25:41. > :25:43.was complete lie in which the police were involved, the press
:25:43. > :25:46.were involved, and the Crown Prosecution Service were co-
:25:46. > :25:49.operating. I don't know what information they had, more
:25:49. > :25:51.information seems to have been coming out all the time.
:25:51. > :25:57.Particularly this latest information concerning payments to
:25:57. > :26:01.police officers. I thought it was the job of the police to get out
:26:01. > :26:07.the information? When did the latest information come out
:26:07. > :26:11.concerning payments to policemen, just recently. If has been
:26:11. > :26:15.available for - It has been available for a while. In January
:26:15. > :26:18.they said they would co-operate, and the information was available
:26:18. > :26:22.then. They are always doing robust informations and then they find
:26:22. > :26:26.bait more information further on. That is more criminal. Do you have
:26:26. > :26:29.any confidence in the new police investigation? Yes I do.
:26:29. > :26:33.Commissioner Hague came to me and said I know you have been pressing
:26:33. > :26:37.for years about it, I know they have denationwide it, I have to go
:26:37. > :26:40.to a judicial review to do something about T I have to tell
:26:40. > :26:43.you straight away that you have had 44 messages, I believe this woman
:26:43. > :26:47.is making a difference. We have only got that because the police
:26:47. > :26:52.know they have to clear this mess up. From your experience of the
:26:52. > :26:56.police, that is what makes the difference, an investigation is
:26:56. > :27:00.prosecuted thoroughly, when the police believe they are under some
:27:00. > :27:06.pressure to do so? That is not true. The investigation is prioritised.
:27:06. > :27:08.They made a very poor judgment, lack of political nouse, lack of
:27:08. > :27:14.understanding, exactly what was under this investigation. That was
:27:14. > :27:16.the problem. I think now, and I agree with Lord Prescott, I think
:27:16. > :27:20.there will be a very fiery investigation now. Perhaps one that
:27:20. > :27:24.should have happened in the past. One very important difference, when
:27:24. > :27:27.I saw judicial review, it did mean the police would have to go and
:27:27. > :27:31.explain why they did or why they did not. It was the court that then
:27:31. > :27:37.the police realised they could no longer hide behind this story of
:27:37. > :27:41.one rogue reporter, they would have to actually clear it up in a
:27:41. > :27:45.judicial review. Don't forget, my first judicial review was turned
:27:45. > :27:52.down, why? Because the police at the time and Mr Yeats reviews today
:27:52. > :27:55.tell them they had found all the information for the new inquiry.
:27:55. > :28:01.Michael Crick was rudely interrupted in telling us the Tory
:28:01. > :28:05.of the day, he joins us now. What is the latest? Ofcom I believe?
:28:05. > :28:09.of the big questions today is whether, as well as Jeremy Hunt,
:28:09. > :28:13.perhaps referring the BSkyB takeover to the Competition
:28:13. > :28:17.Commission, the other possibility for blocking the BSkyB takeover
:28:17. > :28:23.might be if Ofcom, the broadcast regulator, were to come out and
:28:23. > :28:26.decide that in the light of events, News Corporation weren't fit and
:28:26. > :28:31.proper people to hold a TV license. The way things are at the moment,
:28:31. > :28:39.it is looking pretty unlikely that will happen in the near future. He
:28:39. > :28:47.they came out today and said they were monitoring events. It has
:28:47. > :28:51.emerged the relatives of dead servicemen serving in Afghanistan
:28:52. > :28:55.and they have been told their phones may have been hacked. The
:28:55. > :28:59.Chancellor, George Osborne, has come out tonight and said he had
:28:59. > :29:05.been told that his phone number had been on the list of Glenn Mulcaire.
:29:05. > :29:09.There is no evidence his phone had been hacked. It was George Osborne
:29:09. > :29:11.who persuaded David Cameron to take on Andy Coulson as the main spin
:29:11. > :29:15.doctor. It was the Government's position that they were consulting
:29:15. > :29:20.all regulatory authorities, they have said this since March,
:29:20. > :29:23.including Ofcom. When I wrote two nights to Ofcom, delivered it at
:29:23. > :29:27.midnight, the responsibilities extend to investigating privacy
:29:27. > :29:31.allegations, interference, invasion of privacy. Why are you not giving
:29:31. > :29:34.that advice to the Government, and the Government's now opened the
:29:34. > :29:43.second inquiry, to end on the 8th of July, the second consultation
:29:43. > :29:47.period. I hope, and I said to them, I'm wade waiting for his - waiting
:29:47. > :29:50.for his reply. They have a responsibility to report on these
:29:50. > :29:54.people bidding whether or not they interfere on privacy. It has been
:29:54. > :29:59.done on a large scale, it is about time they got involved.
:29:59. > :30:02.Somewhere mixed up in the origins of this sordid affair it what was
:30:02. > :30:09.said to be a campaign by the News of the World against paedophiles.
:30:09. > :30:12.Newsnight has learned that for all the campaigns there remain as
:30:12. > :30:17.failure in the way it was dealt with, for every image of child
:30:17. > :30:22.abuse, a crime has been committed somewhere. Interpol has told us
:30:22. > :30:27.that Britain is sliding down the league of countries who are finding
:30:27. > :30:31.the criminals, because we have no central database to store the
:30:31. > :30:36.information on. We have asked an investigation. Some of the content
:30:36. > :30:41.of this report is disturbing. For over 20 years I have worked in the
:30:41. > :30:44.field of child protection, 12 years as a police detective. The British
:30:44. > :30:49.police are quite good as investigating and prosecuting those
:30:49. > :30:53.who distribute indecent images of children. But I believe they are
:30:53. > :30:57.failing to do enough to identify victims, I think they can do better.
:30:57. > :31:03.Maybe we can learn from other international law enforcement
:31:03. > :31:08.investigations. I have come to the headquarters of Interpol in Lyon in
:31:08. > :31:12.France. The task is to help police combat international crime at
:31:12. > :31:16.Interpol. They maintain a variety of international databases,
:31:16. > :31:21.including fingerprints, missing persons and stolen passports.
:31:21. > :31:24.I'm here at the command and Coordination Centre. Officers here
:31:24. > :31:28.track an incidents happening all around the world. We can see how
:31:28. > :31:33.busy it is from this map, ranging from bombings, abduction and
:31:33. > :31:38.kidnaps of children, even piracy. They can cross reference against
:31:38. > :31:42.photos and DNA on known criminals. What is important to me, is
:31:42. > :31:46.rescuing children who have been sexually abused, that is why I'm
:31:46. > :31:52.here. Interpol have a dedicated team that helps to identify and
:31:52. > :31:56.rescue children whose images and videos have been posted on-line.
:31:56. > :31:59.This is a case that has come in the last couple of hours. This is
:31:59. > :32:03.detective Mick Moran, who co- ordinates the team that deals with
:32:03. > :32:09.crimes against children. In a couple of minute that is this file
:32:09. > :32:12.was there available for download, 650 people downloaded it. Now they
:32:12. > :32:20.didn't download that by accident, they downloaded that knowing what
:32:20. > :32:26.it was. We have a very young girl here who is performing oral sex on
:32:26. > :32:30.a man. She's probably, well, six, probably. OK, yes. I would agree
:32:30. > :32:34.with that, I would say maybe five. She is being forced. The first part
:32:34. > :32:39.of this case is to give the police in each country the unique address
:32:39. > :32:43.of every computer that was used to download this appalling video.
:32:43. > :32:46.a bit of luck in some countries there will be searching in the
:32:46. > :32:49.morning on that information. The second aspect of that is for us
:32:49. > :32:53.here, the more important aspect, that is just Post Office. We're
:32:53. > :32:56.getting the information, we are sending it on to the countries to
:32:56. > :33:01.deal with it. The second aspect is the more important one here, it is
:33:01. > :33:05.the identification of this victim. This is a victim that is being
:33:05. > :33:09.currently abused. Have a look at it there, this is a gross sexual
:33:09. > :33:12.assault being carried out on this child. This is why victim
:33:12. > :33:17.identification is so important. This girl here, obviously knows the
:33:17. > :33:22.offender, I would say, and the offences that she is being made to
:33:22. > :33:26.commit are horrific offences, she can be no more than five or six
:33:26. > :33:30.years old. Correct. This is the issue about calling it pornography,
:33:30. > :33:34.for us it is not pornography it is a crime scene. This child is being
:33:34. > :33:39.abused. We can do something about it. Is it possible we can identify
:33:39. > :33:45.her and stop this abuse, one thing is for sure, the vast amount of
:33:45. > :33:50.sexual abuse takes place at home and in the family circle. One
:33:50. > :33:55.statistically likely is this guy is her father. This guy who is orally
:33:55. > :33:59.raping her is her father. Straight away, at basic analysis level, we
:33:59. > :34:03.can see she's white Caucasian, we can see...The Clues are here in
:34:03. > :34:11.this video, if they can find and identify them they can rescue a
:34:11. > :34:14.ildchoo. Whilst they were there they identified - the chide, they
:34:14. > :34:18.identified the country and the exact city. There are articles of
:34:18. > :34:21.interest, that article there could be very useful. Before we left they
:34:21. > :34:25.identified the offender's likely employer and immediately passed on
:34:25. > :34:29.all the information to the local police. You realise that this is
:34:29. > :34:35.abuse that is happening right now. Right this minute. And if I told
:34:35. > :34:39.you, seriously, if I told you that there was a girl being raped down
:34:39. > :34:45.the corridor, you would quick walls in to get in there and assist ter,
:34:45. > :34:48.what is different about this? - Assist her, what is different about
:34:48. > :34:52.this? Interpol has shown that international co-operation is the
:34:52. > :34:56.key to saving children. I was talking through another case which
:34:56. > :35:03.resulted in a successful identification. Let's be clear,
:35:03. > :35:09.this is a baby being horrifically sexually abused. You have seen four
:35:09. > :35:19.different babies here. In those four images. Now, if we zoom in on
:35:19. > :35:20.
:35:20. > :35:23.that. The only chance they had to save these very young children from
:35:23. > :35:28.sexual abuse s through one country collecting all the material at a
:35:28. > :35:32.central point and sending it on to Interpol. Enabling them to analyse
:35:32. > :35:37.and identify key clues. Most importantly because of this, it
:35:37. > :35:42.turned out to be a Metro ticket. And because it is a Metro ticket,
:35:42. > :35:45.it turned out to be a Metro ticket, I could guess it is something like.
:35:45. > :35:50.That when the officer from that country looked at this, he said
:35:50. > :35:54.that is a ticket from the Metro in this city, and there is the station
:35:54. > :35:59.name. So you have shown me horrific abuse of babies, very young
:35:59. > :36:03.children, the key, and the most important thing was did you save
:36:03. > :36:06.those children and did people get arrested? As a result of the work
:36:06. > :36:09.done here and the identification specialists working within the
:36:09. > :36:13.community, these kids were saved. It is a happens, these children
:36:13. > :36:17.were all being abused within a creche environment a nursery, the
:36:17. > :36:21.mothers were leaving their children off to be minded, and the people
:36:21. > :36:26.who were running the creche were abusing the children. By locating
:36:26. > :36:31.the creche, they locate the victims, and then the offenders. Two men who
:36:31. > :36:38.had access to these children, and who are now subsequently in prison.
:36:38. > :36:44.We have seen how Interpol work. But does Britain have a similar system?
:36:44. > :36:46.The UK has no national database for child abuse material. The Child
:36:46. > :36:52.Exploitation and Online Protection Centre have called for one to exist.
:36:52. > :36:58.But I have learned it will be another 18 months before one is
:36:58. > :37:04.created. In the meantime a chaotic system exists, with just 47 cases
:37:04. > :37:10.forwarded to CEOP last year. They did well and saved 22 children, how
:37:10. > :37:14.many more could be rescued if a central database existed. Claire
:37:14. > :37:24.Perry is on the Justice Select Committee, and is campaigning for
:37:24. > :37:26.
:37:26. > :37:30.tougher measures to sort out child abuse material on the internet. Is
:37:30. > :37:36.it acceptable to wait another 18 months? It is not acceptable for
:37:36. > :37:39.one day extra. Children every day are suffering appalling abuse and
:37:39. > :37:44.those images are distrib buelted worldwide. We have to stop that,
:37:44. > :37:47.the easiest way is to tag the data, work together for a national
:37:47. > :37:50.database to be circulated amongst police forces and internationally
:37:50. > :37:54.we know the technology exists, we know the police force want it. We
:37:54. > :37:57.know that the victims deserve it, we have to go and lobby ministers
:37:57. > :38:00.as hard as we can and make sure this is put in place as soon as
:38:00. > :38:04.possible. There needs to be this central
:38:04. > :38:08.point, and that central point doesn't exist in every country.
:38:08. > :38:14.have been shown the latest Interpol statistics of identified victim,
:38:14. > :38:19.they suggest the UK is not doing very well. When you correct for
:38:19. > :38:27.population size, Norway is at the top, with 33 per million, followed
:38:27. > :38:32.by Sweden, at 15, Canada, six, Netherlands five, Australia,
:38:32. > :38:38.Denmark and Belgium all above three, and the US, Switzerland and Germany
:38:38. > :38:42.are all above two, the UK scores just 1.5, not even in the top ten.
:38:42. > :38:46.Unlike those other countries, many of the UK's police forces are
:38:47. > :38:53.working in isolation, and as a result are failing to co-ordinate
:38:53. > :38:58.victim identification. This is why we need a national database now.
:38:58. > :39:03.Now, it is the list that includes the Hammersmith Palais and the
:39:03. > :39:10.Bolshoi Ballet, goes on through carrot juice, porridge, yellow
:39:10. > :39:17.socks, cheese and pickle, those among you will have figured out I'm
:39:17. > :39:24.talking about Ian Dury's Reasons to be Cheerful. It is not what you can
:39:24. > :39:34.do for yourself but what the Government can do for you.
:39:34. > :39:36.
:39:36. > :39:40.How do we go about it? What makes you happy? In 2002
:39:40. > :39:45.Professor Martin Seligman's theory, authentic happiness, laid out a way
:39:46. > :39:50.of scoring the happiness of individuals. His work spawned the
:39:50. > :39:57.phrase "positive psychology" and prompted shelves full of self-help
:39:57. > :40:04.books, and in the professor's view, an overemphasis on cheerness. So, a
:40:04. > :40:07.revised theory, which distills down to the acronym, PERMA. Experiencing
:40:07. > :40:12.positive emotions, being aware of feelings as they happen, relating
:40:12. > :40:15.to others well, finding meaning in your life, and getting a sense of
:40:15. > :40:19.achievement. He's already inspired David Cameron to announce last year
:40:19. > :40:29.that there will be a move to try to measure our gross national
:40:29. > :40:35.
:40:35. > :40:39.happiness. If your goal in politics is to make people happier, and you
:40:39. > :40:45.know prosperity alone won't deliver happier life. You have to deliver
:40:45. > :40:48.steps to make sure Government is focused on quality of life as well
:40:48. > :40:53.as economic growth. If this is sounding pie in the sky, rest
:40:53. > :40:57.assured the office of national statistics is currently phoning
:40:57. > :41:00.200,000 households to measure how happy we are. But at a time of cuts
:41:00. > :41:07.in public spending and demonstrations on the streets, it
:41:07. > :41:13.is an interesting era in which to do it.
:41:13. > :41:17.Professor Seligman is here now. Can you really make people feel well at
:41:17. > :41:22.a time like this? Yes, I actually think you can. The question is
:41:22. > :41:25.how's life going for you, or how's life going for nation?
:41:25. > :41:30.Traditionally we have measured the economics of it, but what we want
:41:31. > :41:34.to know about, in Addicks, is how much positive emotion we have -
:41:34. > :41:43.addition, is how much positive emotion we have, how good are our
:41:43. > :41:49.relationships, how engaged are we with the people we love, those are
:41:49. > :41:53.measurable. Are you a natural cheery chap? No I'm a pessimist, I
:41:53. > :41:58.think they can only do serious research on happiness. Does that
:41:58. > :42:01.make you think is it worth aiming for? That is a good question. The
:42:01. > :42:06.issue is, is there something over and above getting over misery. All
:42:06. > :42:12.public policy, therapy, is aimed at getting rid of misery, the question
:42:12. > :42:16.is what's above zero. What is above zero? That is what positive
:42:16. > :42:20.psychology is about. Well being is somewhere above there? Beauty is
:42:20. > :42:24.not the absence of uingless, bravery is not just the absence of
:42:24. > :42:28.cowardice. Well being is not just the absence of well being, it is
:42:28. > :42:38.the presence of real things. Isn't it an immensely selfish
:42:38. > :42:45.preoccupation? Not quite, the single If, if you are depressed
:42:45. > :42:49.right now, and you asked me what is the single mood swing move you can
:42:49. > :42:53.do, it is to help another person. Doing something for another person
:42:53. > :42:58.is the single biggest boost. our viewers sitting at home tonight,
:42:58. > :43:02.give them one piece of advice about improving their sense of well being
:43:02. > :43:05.about life? There are quite a number of piece, one easy piece is
:43:05. > :43:09.when we have people, every night before they go to sleep, write down
:43:09. > :43:15.three things that went well today, and why they went well, it is
:43:15. > :43:19.addicting and six months later, in random assignment placebo-
:43:19. > :43:23.controlled tests, people who do this are happier, and have higher
:43:23. > :43:28.life satisfaction, lower depression. Being conscious of the things that
:43:28. > :43:34.go well in your life. The thing I liked of your's, what would your
:43:34. > :43:38.grandchildren say about you, is that what you can explain?
:43:38. > :43:41.question, how can you have more mean anything life? One thing we do,
:43:41. > :43:46.is we have people write first a vision of what a positive human
:43:46. > :43:51.future would be, and then write their obituary through their
:43:52. > :43:56.grandchildren's eyes, in which they say what they did to contribute to
:43:56. > :43:59.a positive meaningful future. is David Cameron supposed to apply
:43:59. > :44:02.this? The first question is if we don't measure the right thing we
:44:02. > :44:08.don't do the right thing, all we have measured is money. The
:44:08. > :44:12.question is first, measuring well being. It turns out, over the last
:44:12. > :44:15.decade, people have found ways of measuring pretty much as well as we
:44:15. > :44:19.can, schizophrenia, alcoholism, mean anything life, positive
:44:19. > :44:23.emotion, engagement at work, relations with others. The first
:44:23. > :44:29.thing is to measure the well being of the British people, and then,
:44:29. > :44:33.and I think this is quite bold of the Prime Minister, to hold one's
:44:33. > :44:38.self accountable for changes in well being by public policy. Give
:44:38. > :44:41.us an example? Well, one thing I work on is schools and schools
:44:41. > :44:47.systems, actually in Britain as well as Australia and the United
:44:47. > :44:53.States. So what we do is we take teachers and we teach them the
:44:53. > :44:57.skills of well being in their own life, then teach it to 10-12-year-
:44:57. > :45:01.old children, then we follow the children through puberty, what we
:45:01. > :45:06.find is when teachers learn the skills of well being, for the next
:45:06. > :45:10.couple of years, children have less depression, less anxiety, and
:45:10. > :45:14.better conduct. So that's an example of a public policy in
:45:14. > :45:20.education that leads to greater well being. If I were to say to you,
:45:20. > :45:24.look a pig, lying around in muck is content. What would you say?
:45:24. > :45:28.not really after contentment. So I think contentment and the smiley
:45:28. > :45:31.face are not the variables of real psychological interests, they are
:45:31. > :45:35.things like how engaged are you at work, how good are your relations,
:45:35. > :45:38.how much meaning do you have in life. A pig lying around in muck
:45:39. > :45:44.doesn't have a lot of meaning in life. You believe you can give
:45:44. > :45:50.people mean anything life? Yes, it turns out that unlike the smiley
:45:50. > :45:54.face, which is highly inherited, your parents pass it on to you,
:45:54. > :45:58.mean anything life is everyone's birthright, and it is learnable, it
:45:58. > :46:04.is teachable by teachers to children, it is teachable in the
:46:04. > :46:14.United States army. Thank you. Some of tomorrow morning's front
:46:14. > :46:31.
:46:31. > :46:36.There was a 5% drop in the value of shares in News Corporation in New
:46:36. > :46:39.York today. According to the Mail, even war widows are on the hackers
:46:40. > :46:49.hitlist. That's all from Newsnight tonight. Kirsty will be your
:46:50. > :46:51.
:46:51. > :46:56.therapist tomorrow night, until then, goodnight.
:46:56. > :47:01.No sign of the weather settling down just yet. A showery prospect
:47:01. > :47:07.for several days to come. A wet start where you live tomorrow
:47:07. > :47:11.morning. But it will break up into showers. There will be hail and
:47:11. > :47:14.thunder mixed in. Very few places will avoid them entirely. A cool
:47:14. > :47:18.day, particularly when the showers come along in a gusty wind.
:47:18. > :47:22.Temperatures held back into the mid-to high teens at best in most
:47:22. > :47:26.places. Across the south west of England, maybe around some of the
:47:26. > :47:34.coasts lengthy spells of sunshine. Even here I wouldn't rely on it.
:47:34. > :47:38.Frequent and heavy showers blowing in on the Brit south-westerly wind.
:47:38. > :47:40.If you catch a shower it could last quite a while. There will be some
:47:40. > :47:44.heavy storms across Northern Ireland, I think, with hail and
:47:44. > :47:49.thunder for sure. At least we have lost the persistent heavy rain
:47:49. > :47:53.across eastern parts of Scotland we had today. Lively downpours to come.
:47:54. > :47:56.This is the situation on Thursday, and Friday, with more of the same.
:47:56. > :48:00.Limited brightness, again disappointing temperatures, across
:48:00. > :48:04.the more southern parts of the UK, every chance that we will see
:48:04. > :48:10.prolonged rain and gusty winds. The big picture on Friday looks like