:00:08. > :00:16.News International kills off the News of the World, but their chief
:00:16. > :00:20.executive is alive and kicking with Murdoch's backing. I am satisfied
:00:20. > :00:24.that Rebekah's leadership of the business and her standard of ethics
:00:24. > :00:29.and conduct, throughout her career, are very good. I have been speaking
:00:29. > :00:33.to the Labour leader. What I'm interested in is not closing down
:00:33. > :00:37.newspapers, I'm interested in those who were responsible being brought
:00:37. > :00:44.to justice, and those who had responsibility for the running of
:00:44. > :00:52.that newspaper taking their responsibility. And still they
:00:52. > :01:02.can't bury the story of hacking and bribery. We hear from a victim of
:01:02. > :01:03.
:01:03. > :01:10.the 7/7 family about their phone being hacked. We have suffered so
:01:10. > :01:15.much, why do we have to suffer more. Does Murdoch's empire go below the
:01:15. > :01:20.water line and is it sinking fast. I'm joined by politician, newspaper
:01:20. > :01:27.editor, the News of the World's political editor, Rupert Murdoch's
:01:27. > :01:31.biographer, and Bob Woodward. Up, up and away, tomorrow at the
:01:31. > :01:41.Kennedy space centre, the very last shuttle is blasting off, we look to
:01:41. > :01:41.
:01:41. > :01:44.frontiers new. Good evening, the world's biggest-
:01:44. > :01:50.selling English language Sunday paper has been sacrificed by the
:01:50. > :01:55.Murdoch empire, in day of high drama, which left 200 employees
:01:55. > :02:00.bereft of a job. The reason is far from clear, was it simply that the
:02:00. > :02:06.title is toxic. Was it to save the chief executive, Rebekah Brooks'
:02:06. > :02:10.skin, or to smooth the passage of the takeover of BSkyB, or to pave
:02:10. > :02:14.the way for a new Sunday paper, or is Rupert Murdoch at sea for the
:02:14. > :02:19.first time in his life. Questions remain for David Cameron over the
:02:19. > :02:23.BSkyB deal, and the relationship between the former direct or of
:02:23. > :02:29.communications and ex-editor of the News of the World, Andy Coulson,
:02:29. > :02:34.who, we understand will be arrested tomorrow. First this report.
:02:34. > :02:37.This is a storm that has engulfed politicians, papers and the police.
:02:37. > :02:43.After an extraordinary day, it is not clear how far the damage will
:02:43. > :02:48.go, and ultimately who is going to pay? For David Cameron this is
:02:48. > :02:52.already the most difficult crisis of his Premiershipship, events are
:02:52. > :02:55.moving fast and - Premiership, events are moving fast and he can
:02:55. > :03:01.do little more than wait and see what happens. He used to see his
:03:01. > :03:06.director of communications as a lucky charm. I thank Andy Coulson
:03:06. > :03:11.for putting on this march past. Even when Andy Coulson was forced
:03:11. > :03:15.to resign in January this year, David Cameron refused to cut the
:03:15. > :03:19.man loose. Andy Coulson resigned from the News of the World when he
:03:19. > :03:22.found out what happened. I feel he's punished twice for the same
:03:22. > :03:26.offence. I choose to judge him by the work he has done for me, for
:03:26. > :03:29.the Government and for the country. As I say, he has run the Downing
:03:29. > :03:35.Street press office in a professional, competent and good
:03:35. > :03:38.way. If you compare that with the days of the dodgy dossiers and
:03:38. > :03:42.Alistair Campbell and Damien McBride, and all that nonsense, we
:03:42. > :03:46.had from the previous Government, he has done an excellent, excellent
:03:46. > :03:51.job. This scandal could be every bit as damaging as any of those. Mr
:03:51. > :03:55.Cameron can't change the past. He did hire Andy Coulson and he is
:03:55. > :03:59.personal friends with Mr Coulson's predecessor, as editor of the News
:03:59. > :04:02.of the World, the current chief executive of News International,
:04:03. > :04:07.Rebekah Brooks. The mood among Conservatives is anger and fear.
:04:07. > :04:10.Plenty begged David Cameron not to have anything to do with Andy
:04:10. > :04:15.Coulson. One senior backbencher told Newsnight, this could easily
:04:15. > :04:20.cost them the next election. It is a bit like John Major and ERM, Tony
:04:20. > :04:25.Blair and Ecclestone, and even Tony Blair and David Kelly, this is the
:04:25. > :04:30.moment when that young hopeful leader turns into somebody who's
:04:30. > :04:36.tarnished. How does he get out of it. I do believe David Cameron does
:04:36. > :04:39.have moral values, he has to return to those moral values. He has to
:04:39. > :04:44.apologise for hiring Coulson, to bring such man into Downing Street,
:04:44. > :04:48.we have to have an apology and an explanation on why he did it. We
:04:48. > :04:53.have to know about the relationship with Rebekah Brooks, how often they
:04:53. > :04:57.see each other and what they talk about, and the relationship with
:04:57. > :05:01.Murdoch, which is kept quiet about for so long. News International
:05:01. > :05:05.have apparently revealed e-mail that is show that during his time
:05:05. > :05:11.at News of the World, Andy Coulson authorised huge payments to corrupt
:05:11. > :05:13.police officers. That would seem to constitute a criminal offence. The
:05:13. > :05:20.e-mails contradict evidence Mr Coulson gave last December, when he
:05:20. > :05:30.was a witness in the trial of the Scottish politician, Tommy Sheridan.
:05:30. > :05:32.
:05:32. > :05:39.Tommy Sheridan, conducting his own Four words that some believe now
:05:39. > :05:45.require extensive explanation. Today Tommy Sheridan's lawyer and
:05:45. > :05:47.the spokesman called on the police to investigate. When it was
:05:47. > :05:50.announced that Andy Coulson had authorised payments to police
:05:50. > :05:53.officers for information, and in Scotland in December he told a jury
:05:54. > :05:58.that he had no knowledge of payments to police officers, one of
:05:58. > :06:03.those, either Andy Coulson or News International, are misleading us.
:06:03. > :06:06.If it was Andy Coulson, he has to answer a perjury charge, that is
:06:06. > :06:10.very serious. News International today took the kind of decisive
:06:10. > :06:13.action simply not available to David Cameron, faced with a scandal
:06:13. > :06:17.that threatens to infect the whole organisation, Rupert Murdoch has
:06:17. > :06:20.taken a knife to his own corporate flesh.
:06:20. > :06:28.An extraordinary moment in British journalism, the News of the World
:06:28. > :06:34.is to close, victim of its own phone hacking scandal. In closing
:06:34. > :06:38.the News of the World, he's ending a 168 year title. One of my
:06:38. > :06:42.colleague is in tears, I have a chap who has just got married and
:06:42. > :06:46.bought a new house a few weeks ago. There is 200 people up there, I
:06:46. > :06:50.have to say all the people up there throughout this have held their
:06:50. > :06:54.heads up high, none of us did any of this, it is all done by people
:06:54. > :06:58.who have left the organisation. Rebekah Brooks, the editor of the
:06:58. > :07:01.News of the World, at the time when Milly Dowler's phone was allegedly
:07:01. > :07:07.hacked, is now chief executive of News International, she hasn't lost
:07:07. > :07:11.her job, yet, at least. Today, James Murdoch stood resolutely by
:07:11. > :07:15.her. I'm convinced that Rebekah Brooks' leadership of the company
:07:15. > :07:20.is the right thing, she's doing the right thing for the company. It is
:07:20. > :07:25.her leadership that has really gotten to grips with this whole
:07:25. > :07:29.period in the company's history. And the committees. So no talk of
:07:29. > :07:33.her going to be clear of that? no, her leadership is crucial right
:07:33. > :07:37.now. It is actually what has been moving allot of this forward.
:07:37. > :07:41.Meanwhile, the Metropolitan Police have been forced to revisit the
:07:41. > :07:46.investigation that they apparently got so badly wrong last time. Was
:07:46. > :07:51.it just incompetence or complacency or something far more sinister.
:07:51. > :07:55.Today is the anniversary of 7/7, the families of those who died in
:07:55. > :08:02.those attacks were also, apparently, targeted by the investigator
:08:02. > :08:06.working for the News of the World. This, during the tenure of Andy
:08:06. > :08:10.Coulson at the paper. Sean Cassidy lost his son at the bomb in Russell
:08:10. > :08:14.Square. It should be an independent inquiry, both the Labour Party and
:08:14. > :08:20.the Tories should distance themselves from News International.
:08:20. > :08:25.And an apology for hiring Andy Coulson? Yes, and especially an
:08:25. > :08:30.apology to people like me, I'm an ordinary citizen going about my
:08:30. > :08:34.every day work, who unfortunately got caught up in the July 7th
:08:34. > :08:39.bombings, I don't deserve this or any other family. Do you feel the
:08:39. > :08:43.Prime Minister is in this, because of his proximity to Andy Coulson,
:08:43. > :08:48.that he's part of your pain? Yes I think he is, he should know what is
:08:48. > :08:52.going on. If he hired someone that was already working for News
:08:52. > :08:55.International. Andy Coulson hid way from the cameras whilst working for
:08:55. > :08:59.David Cameron. He cannot hide now though from the scandal that is
:08:59. > :09:03.growing fast, and nor can his former boss.
:09:03. > :09:07.Joining me now is the editor of the paper who broke the story, Alan
:09:07. > :09:11.Rusbridger of the Guardian. Is it good news that the News of the
:09:11. > :09:14.World is closed. No, I think it is baffling, no-one
:09:14. > :09:19.has called for the News of the World to be closed, as your clip
:09:19. > :09:24.said, the present staff are not associated with this. In fact James
:09:24. > :09:29.Murdoch's statement pays tribute to them and says what great journalism
:09:29. > :09:32.they are doing, it seems perverse to close down the newspaper. If it
:09:32. > :09:36.was done to save Rebekah Brooks' skin, will it have that effect?
:09:37. > :09:40.surprising thing about the memo, and first of all, it is welcome
:09:40. > :09:45.that James Murdoch has finally come out and confessed to everything we
:09:45. > :09:50.said happened back in July 2009. That is good, but it has this great
:09:50. > :09:54.gap at the heart of it, which is to just blame everything on one word
:09:54. > :09:59."wrong doers", who are they? Either that includes Rebekah Brooks, or
:09:59. > :10:04.she didn't know what was going on, in which ways she's not very
:10:04. > :10:11.competent. Is it conceivable, as an editor, that something like as
:10:11. > :10:16.shocking an event as Milly Dowler's phone allegedly being hacked could
:10:16. > :10:20.go on without the knowledge of the editor? We now know this was
:10:21. > :10:25.systematic, this was what went on, it was what they did for every
:10:25. > :10:30.story. I spoke to a News of the World reporter yesterday who said
:10:30. > :10:34.every story present today the editor they asked for the messages.
:10:34. > :10:39.So the editor, Andy Coulson or Rebekah Brooks? This was Coulson.
:10:39. > :10:42.And most editors find it incredible that you could be editor, and
:10:42. > :10:45.Rebekah Wade was editor of two papers, and week after week people
:10:45. > :10:49.coming up with sensational stories and you never ask where they came
:10:49. > :10:53.from. What do you make of the timing of today, is there something
:10:53. > :10:57.big coming? They have now a tough investigative team. It may be they
:10:57. > :11:04.know there is more stuff coming down the slipway. It could be a
:11:04. > :11:07.commercial decision. It may be they realised the brand was totally
:11:07. > :11:12.toxic. It seems amazing you keep the chief executive in place and
:11:12. > :11:16.get rid of the staff and paper. Moving on to something very
:11:16. > :11:23.important. Tomorrow we understand that Andy Coulson will be arrested.
:11:23. > :11:27.Now, as an editor, or as a human being, you spoke to a senior
:11:27. > :11:31.executive of David Cameron's before the election, and said what? There
:11:31. > :11:34.was this odd situation that we knew that there was this murder trial
:11:34. > :11:40.coming, which involved one of the investigators that Coulson had used,
:11:40. > :11:44.who had been in jail for seven years. It seemed reasonable to try
:11:44. > :11:50.to warn Cameron that he shouldn't, before he took Coulson into Number
:11:50. > :11:56.Ten Downing Street, he should have some inquiries about this. I'm not
:11:56. > :12:00.the only figure in Fleet Street who got this warning through to Cameron,
:12:00. > :12:04.saying beware. Surely David Cameron knew about the warnings? Oh yes.
:12:04. > :12:08.You also spoke to Nick Clegg before the election what did you say to
:12:08. > :12:11.him? The same thing, that there is a big murder trial coming,
:12:11. > :12:14.involving one of the people that Coulson involved. We can't report
:12:14. > :12:20.at the time, because it is unreportable. But you should just
:12:20. > :12:25.know about this. Having said this to both Cameron's people and to
:12:25. > :12:28.Clegg, what message did you get back from both camps? Nick Clegg
:12:28. > :12:32.didn't think at that time that he would be in Downing Street and
:12:32. > :12:36.nothing came back from Cameron. I wonder what sort of vetting went on.
:12:36. > :12:41.A lot of the stuff had been published in the Guardian in 2002.
:12:41. > :12:45.It was the BBC's crime correspondent who wrote a lot about
:12:45. > :12:48.this. Cameron was either very naive to accept Coulson's word, or he
:12:48. > :12:53.just didn't go through the proper vetting processes. We will be
:12:53. > :12:59.hearing from you again in a little while. Thank you for now. Earlier I
:12:59. > :13:02.spoke about all this to the Labour leader, Ed Miliband.
:13:02. > :13:05.Had a matter of moments ago we heard James Murdoch has made a
:13:05. > :13:08.statement to say after this Sunday the News of the World will be
:13:08. > :13:11.closing its doors forever. What is your reaction to that? I think it
:13:11. > :13:16.is a big decision but I don't think it so was the problem. Because
:13:16. > :13:20.afterall, lots of people are losing their jobs today. But one of the
:13:20. > :13:24.people who is remain anything her job is the chief executive of News
:13:24. > :13:28.International, who was the editor at the time that the hacking of
:13:28. > :13:32.Milly Dowler's phone happened. So it is a big act, but I don't think
:13:32. > :13:36.it so was the real issues at News International. Is it the right
:13:36. > :13:46.decision? It is a decision for them, but I don't think it so was a
:13:46. > :13:46.
:13:46. > :13:50.problem. Is it Mia cull pa? sure - Mea culpa? I'm sure for
:13:50. > :13:55.those up and down the country they are appalled, the public is
:13:55. > :13:59.appalled, the hacking of Milly Dowler, over the last few days what
:13:59. > :14:03.we have seen exposed, it shows the trouble that News International is
:14:03. > :14:08.in. I'm not interested in closing down newspaper, I'm interested in
:14:08. > :14:13.those who were responsible for being brought to justice, and those
:14:13. > :14:19.who had the responsibility for the running of that newspaper, taking
:14:19. > :14:22.responsibility. I don't think that has happened today. Is it right to
:14:22. > :14:26.say if Rebekah Brooks stays in her job as far as you are concerned
:14:26. > :14:30.that is a blight on News International for good? She should
:14:30. > :14:34.go and take responsibility. Let me explain why I say this. I say this
:14:34. > :14:38.because anyone who runs an organisation and who imagines
:14:38. > :14:42.themselves being in a position of the things that happened on her
:14:42. > :14:45.watch happening would think, even if I didn't know about them,
:14:45. > :14:49.somebody has to take responsibility for what happened. Frankly, the
:14:49. > :14:52.idea that she is leading the investigation at News International,
:14:52. > :14:55.overseeing the investigation, with the police, I think that beggers
:14:55. > :14:59.belief for members of the public up and down the country. That is why I
:14:59. > :15:04.have spoken out as I have on it. What do you say to the allegation
:15:04. > :15:08.that she has been kept in place as a human shield for James Murdoch?
:15:08. > :15:12.I'm not getting into that, I'm interested in the right thing being
:15:12. > :15:15.done by way of the public, that is the most important thing in this
:15:15. > :15:18.whole process. We have a responsibility as political leders
:15:18. > :15:23.to speak out on these issues as to what we think the right thing to do
:15:23. > :15:28.is. Weren't you slow off the mark. On Monday night's Newsnight, Tom
:15:28. > :15:31.Watson said you are as guilty as Clegg and Cameron, of, not only
:15:31. > :15:35.letting the Dowler family down, but simply not pushing hard enough on
:15:35. > :15:39.this whole issue, you were run to go catch up? I don't accept what
:15:39. > :15:44.Tom Watson said. But I do accept this, that we all have lessons to
:15:44. > :15:48.learn about the need to speak out on these issues. And you know the
:15:48. > :15:52.history of the Labour Party and News International is that up and
:15:52. > :15:56.down history, but I think we have all learned a lesson this week.
:15:56. > :16:00.Should you have spoken out earlier? We all learn a lesson, as I say b
:16:00. > :16:03.the need to speak out on the issues. What I have done this week is to
:16:03. > :16:07.leave the debate, as political leaders should. Isn't the very
:16:07. > :16:14.thing you were saying, that Labour has a problem with News
:16:14. > :16:18.International, look at 1995, Tony Blair, Alistair Campbell and others
:16:18. > :16:21.couldn't get to Australia fast enough to see Rupert Murdoch and
:16:21. > :16:25.have his blessing, presumably you thought that was great? I can't
:16:25. > :16:28.remember what I thought at the time, but I learned lessons from that
:16:29. > :16:32.episode. I learned lessons, not because who you have dinner with
:16:32. > :16:36.and who you meet, because it is always the case in our political
:16:36. > :16:40.culture, that politicians want good relationships with the press, they
:16:40. > :16:44.are important. But you have to make sure you can speak out without fear
:16:44. > :16:48.and favour on the issues as you see them, the whole political class was
:16:48. > :16:53.too slow off the mark on this, I won't deny. That the question is
:16:53. > :16:56.now who is willing to show the leadership and speak out on the
:16:56. > :17:01.inquiry we need and what is happening in News International,
:17:01. > :17:05.and all the other issue, like BSkyB. Just two weeks ago you were at a
:17:05. > :17:09.News International, at the Orangery in Kensington, did you speak to
:17:09. > :17:14.Rupert Murdoch? I did speak to him, briefly. Did you raise the issue of
:17:14. > :17:18.phone hacking with him when you met him? I didn't discuss him with that.
:17:18. > :17:23.You said you wanted to take a lead, two weeking ago you had Rupert
:17:23. > :17:26.Murdoch in your sights and you didn't raise it? This isn't a
:17:26. > :17:30.discussion about who we talk to and who we have relationships. But you
:17:30. > :17:36.are the leader of the Labour Party? This is about our willingness to
:17:36. > :17:38.speak out on the issues. There are lessons to learn. Labour has its
:17:38. > :17:43.own problems with relationship, your head of strategy used to work
:17:43. > :17:48.for News International and the Times, and in January, he sent out
:17:48. > :17:50.an e-mail to Labour backbenchers saying do not just, it is a were,
:17:50. > :17:55.pick on News International as the only paper that might be involved
:17:55. > :18:03.in the hacking business, it could be other titles as well. And don't
:18:03. > :18:07.raise hack anything the same breath as BSkyB. You can't be comfortable
:18:07. > :18:12.with him doing that. The position we have taken is this, to speak out
:18:12. > :18:20.on the hacking issues. But also to say that the Competition Commission
:18:20. > :18:22.is the right body to make rulings on BSkyB. That is right. Jeremy
:18:22. > :18:26.Hunt and the Government have chosen a different course. They have
:18:26. > :18:29.chosen to go down the road of specific arrangements with News
:18:29. > :18:33.International. They have to act on assurances from News International.
:18:33. > :18:37.The reason why the process is becoming unstuck on BSkyB, I think
:18:37. > :18:40.it is becoming unstuck. They are trying to get assurances from News
:18:40. > :18:43.International. But I have to say, News International assurances are
:18:43. > :18:47.not worth very much, given what we have seen in the past few months.
:18:47. > :18:50.That is why I say, even at this stage, the right thing for the
:18:50. > :18:55.Government to do would be to go to the Competition Commission. The
:18:55. > :19:00.right process to deal with this. Let's deal with Andy Coulson for a
:19:00. > :19:03.moment. It is now alleged that he either agreement to payments or
:19:03. > :19:07.sanctioned other people to make payments to police officers. What
:19:07. > :19:11.should happen to Andy Coulson? That's a matter for the police. But
:19:11. > :19:14.what I do say is the Prime Minister has serious questions to answer
:19:14. > :19:18.about the judgments he has made in relation to Andy Coulson, the
:19:18. > :19:21.hiring of him originally, the bringing of him into the Downing
:19:21. > :19:24.Street reason, also he will have to answer questions in the coming days
:19:24. > :19:28.about what he knew and what discussions he had with Andy
:19:28. > :19:31.Coulson, about what he actually did when he was editor and knew about,
:19:31. > :19:35.when he was editor of the News of the World. Let's deal with James
:19:35. > :19:42.Murdoch, because of a select committee, we know he authorised
:19:42. > :19:45.the payment of Gordon Taylor for �750,000, is his position tenable?
:19:45. > :19:50.I don't want to assess the police investigation. The right thing to
:19:50. > :19:55.do is say the police investigation has to take its course. People are
:19:55. > :20:00.saying perhaps your removal from the whole orbit of News
:20:00. > :20:04.International and your criticism of News International is a reversal of
:20:04. > :20:09.clause IV moment, saying we don't need News International any more,
:20:09. > :20:12.they are bad news for Labour, is that the ways? I'm learning lessons
:20:12. > :20:16.over what the right thing to do and the past, this is not about me, it
:20:16. > :20:20.is about the public, up and down this country, who have been appal
:20:20. > :20:28.bid what they have heard. The hacking of the phone of an abducted
:20:28. > :20:33.girl. The hacking of the families of 7/7 victims. Today we learn the
:20:33. > :20:38.hacking of phones of families of servicemen who died in this country.
:20:38. > :20:40.That should make us look and think what kind of culture do we have in
:20:40. > :20:45.this country. Thank you very much.
:20:45. > :20:51.Joining me now is the Deputy Chairman of the Conservative Party,
:20:51. > :20:55.Michael Fallon, and the Liberal Democrat MP, Lord Oakeshott.
:20:55. > :20:58.Your leader and the Chancellor made a serious error of judgment hiring
:20:58. > :21:03.Andy Coulson? Andy Coulson resigned from the News of the World, when
:21:03. > :21:07.one of his reporters was convicted. He resigned again from Downing
:21:07. > :21:09.Street. I didn't hear anybody resigning this week. The Prime
:21:09. > :21:13.Minister made it absolutely clear to parliament yesterday that he
:21:13. > :21:16.makes full responsibility for his employment. But, yes, but surely it
:21:16. > :21:20.was a catastrophic error of judgment, you have just heard Alan
:21:20. > :21:23.Rusbridger say very clearly and candidly, he spoke to somebody very
:21:23. > :21:27.close to David Cameron, who told David Cameron that actually there
:21:27. > :21:30.were going to be problems with Andy Coulson, and then he was warning
:21:30. > :21:34.him off. David Cameron chose to ignore that advice entirely, and it
:21:34. > :21:38.didn't just come from here, that is failure of judgment, or an
:21:38. > :21:41.arrogance. You want to be very careful about the allegations.
:21:41. > :21:45.David Cameron sought assurances from Andy Coulson before he was
:21:45. > :21:48.appointed. He received those assurances, he employed it, in the
:21:48. > :21:52.end Andy Coulson resigned. You are suggesting Andy Coulson lied to the
:21:52. > :21:57.Prime Minister? I think Andy Coulson's conduct is not matter for
:21:57. > :22:03.you, or for I n the end it is a matter for the investigation going
:22:03. > :22:07.on at the moment, we shouldn't pre- judge it. The one thing we can say
:22:07. > :22:12.with clarity is, when Andy Coulson was director of communications for
:22:12. > :22:18.Her Majesty's Government, he said, in court, they had no knowledge of
:22:18. > :22:23.payments to police officers. Now, it is possible, allegedly, he
:22:23. > :22:32.allegedly perjuryed himself, if he is arrested tomorrow, this is a
:22:32. > :22:37.dark day for David Cameron? These are dark days for for the inquiry
:22:37. > :22:41.and the courts. These are matters for the courts, these are
:22:41. > :22:45.investigations and not for you and I. Any police officer who takes
:22:45. > :22:49.money is corrupt? These are matters for the investigation. We can't
:22:49. > :22:52.decide on Newsnight that somebody is guilty or not. That is the whole
:22:52. > :22:56.point of the police investigation and the inquiry that will follow.
:22:56. > :22:59.If Andy Coulson is charged with perjury, as Deputy Chairman of the
:22:59. > :23:03.Conservative Party, how uncomfortable will you be about
:23:03. > :23:07.that? If he's charged with perjury it is matter for the court, he is
:23:07. > :23:12.entitled to a trial. We can't prejudge that. If somebody is
:23:12. > :23:18.charged we need to be careful about that. Let's talk Lord Oakeshott
:23:18. > :23:23.about the position, vis a vis the BSkyB takeover. In your view,
:23:23. > :23:27.should that takeover now be delayed? Certainly t should be, as
:23:27. > :23:32.it should have been months ago. Referred to the competition
:23:32. > :23:37.commission, as it would have been had Vince Cable still had the
:23:37. > :23:44.decision. I will come on to Vince Cable in a molt, I want to ask you
:23:44. > :23:51.on the Andy Coulson apair. Nick Clegg was warned specifically by
:23:51. > :23:54.Rusbridger. Do you think it strange that Nick Clegg didn't warn David
:23:54. > :23:59.Cameron when Alan Rusbridger said Andy Coulson in Downing Street
:23:59. > :24:04.wouldn't be a good idea. It wasn't Nick Clegg's decision and it was
:24:04. > :24:08.before the election. In the Liberal Democrats we sup from a very long
:24:08. > :24:13.spoon with the News of the World and the News Corporation and
:24:13. > :24:17.whoever works from them, unlike Labour who were close to the entire
:24:17. > :24:21.machine and the Conservatives. We have nothing but contempt from them,
:24:21. > :24:26.we treat them with great care. Let's talk about BSkyB, do you
:24:26. > :24:29.think the takeover of BSkyB should go ahead and there should be no
:24:29. > :24:33.delay? There is still a process running. Submissions close tomorrow.
:24:33. > :24:38.The Culture Secretary has to weigh all that up. He takes further
:24:38. > :24:42.advice from the competition authorities about that. So there is
:24:42. > :24:45.some time still to go. The decision as to whether somebody is fit and
:24:45. > :24:48.proper, which you are getting at. The decision about whether someone
:24:48. > :24:51.is fit and proper to run a broadcasting organisation,
:24:51. > :24:54.parliament decided years ago should not be a matter for politicians and
:24:54. > :24:58.ministers, it should mash for an independent regulator which is
:24:58. > :25:01.Ofcom. That is a continuing duty, they can decide at any point, not
:25:01. > :25:06.just the point of the proposed merger, they can decide at any
:25:06. > :25:09.point that they are not a fit and proper organisation. Should that
:25:09. > :25:13.happen now? That is for Ofcom to decide, not politicians to decide.
:25:13. > :25:17.One thing that will be decided by politicians perhaps there will be a
:25:17. > :25:21.vote, called for by Labour next week in the House of Commons, to
:25:21. > :25:23.delay further the decision. How will the Liberal Democrats vote on
:25:23. > :25:32.that? I don't know how Liberal Democrats in the Commons will vote,
:25:32. > :25:35.I know how I would vote. T as Michael said, Ofcom can, and has
:25:35. > :25:42.only said today that they have an on going responsibility for whether
:25:42. > :25:47.someone's a fit and proper person. And the key point here, is that why
:25:47. > :25:51.would anyone accept an assurance from News International, I wouldn't
:25:51. > :25:54.buy an assurance from them. The News of the World was great
:25:54. > :25:58.prize for Rupert Murdoch when he beat off his rival, the late Robert
:25:58. > :26:04.Maxwell, to buy the title in 1969. It is said that Murdoch loves
:26:04. > :26:09.nothing more than a tabloid paper and he got the red top, top. Now it
:26:09. > :26:14.is tiny, and apparently toxic, as part of his empire, and a threat to
:26:14. > :26:17.his much bigger ambition to own the whole of BSkyB. In flash he closed
:26:17. > :26:21.it. We have this on the giant that is News Corp.
:26:21. > :26:25.Rupert Murdoch bought the News of the World, back at the tailend of
:26:25. > :26:30.the 60s, to be the foundation of what has become a global business
:26:30. > :26:35.empire. Back then he was a in a corner fighting. Mr Maxwell called
:26:35. > :26:40.me a moth-eaten kangaroo. I never got quite to that stage!
:26:40. > :26:44.closure of the News of the World is a sign of Murdoch's ruthless
:26:45. > :26:49.expediency, once again he's feeting, even forethat business empire's
:26:49. > :26:53.very survival. Film and TV in the UK, the US and around the world,
:26:53. > :26:56.have long ago taken over as Murdoch's cash cows in chief. But
:26:57. > :27:03.the scandal surrounding the world's best-selling English language
:27:03. > :27:06.newspaper, have threatened them all. O2, DFS, Sainsbury's, Ford,
:27:06. > :27:10.companies have been falling over themselves to pull advertising from
:27:10. > :27:14.the tabloid. Murdoch feared a boycott by readers was next and
:27:14. > :27:19.they understand where that leads. News co-operation executives know
:27:19. > :27:25.better than anyone the cost of a public boycott. On Merseyside for
:27:25. > :27:30.22 years, sales of the Sun have remained on the floor, because of
:27:30. > :27:35.public anger over the coverage of the Hillsborough disaster. It is
:27:35. > :27:41.thought 75% of readers were lost and those readers have never come
:27:41. > :27:46.back. Claire Anders has been following the Murdoch empire for 20
:27:46. > :27:50.years. She wasn't entirely surprised by today's shock news,
:27:50. > :27:54.the death of News of the World? brand has been destroyed and they
:27:54. > :27:58.have called it day. They will rename it and relaunch it as
:27:58. > :28:03.something else. Does this end the scandal? Not at all.
:28:03. > :28:07.James Murdoch, Rupert's son, is the man who has been running damage
:28:07. > :28:12.limitation at News International, the UK arm of News Corporation. He
:28:12. > :28:17.authorised pay-offs of up to a million pounds from celebrities who
:28:17. > :28:21.threatened to sue after being bugged. Now he's saying sorry.
:28:21. > :28:25.There was a particular settlement I authorised, and I have said was
:28:25. > :28:29.made with information that was incomplete, I acted on the advice
:28:29. > :28:34.of executives and lawyers. Withen complete investigation. That is a
:28:34. > :28:37.matter of real regret for me personally. It is only weeks since
:28:37. > :28:41.James Murdoch was spirited from London to head News Corporation in
:28:41. > :28:47.New York. He said, memorably, he put the News of the World scandal
:28:47. > :28:52.in a box, problem over. It was not envisaged that James Murdoch would
:28:52. > :28:55.be moving to New York as its appointed successor, until it was
:28:55. > :29:00.announced. In fact, previously analysts had been told that he
:29:00. > :29:03.would be the chief executive of the European pay TV option. That
:29:03. > :29:07.upgrade came suddenly and wasn't really flagged. Brooks Brookes
:29:07. > :29:13.Brooks was left to sublg seed James Murdoch in the UK. Cynics felt she
:29:13. > :29:18.had been left to carry the can. James Murdoch said that's not so.
:29:18. > :29:22.I'm convinced that Rebekah Brooks's leadership of the company is the
:29:22. > :29:30.right thing. She's doing the right thing for the company.
:29:30. > :29:34.inescapably point is Rebekah Brooks is vulnerable n, in the corporate
:29:34. > :29:41.standing she's the last one standing before James himself.
:29:41. > :29:47.Two News Corporation agencies have broken the news. In the US, where
:29:47. > :29:51.Murdoch makes ten times more than in the UK, the share price dropped
:29:51. > :29:59.10%. This really sooms like something different. A different
:29:59. > :30:03.level of awfulness. Murdoch has had really thick skin here and kind of
:30:03. > :30:10.has that teflon aura where criticism bounces off him. This
:30:10. > :30:14.seems like it has the potential to be more serious. It seems different.
:30:14. > :30:20.One of News Corporation's directors has been dispatched to London to
:30:20. > :30:28.liaise. Last time we met, he was working for the Bush administration,
:30:28. > :30:35.as the architect of the patient yacht act, and there was a row over
:30:35. > :30:39.phone happen - patriarch act, and there was a row over phone hacking.
:30:39. > :30:43.For James Murdoch these are times of crisis, the father will be
:30:43. > :30:47.hoping this will make the boy as his business heir. James must be
:30:47. > :30:51.sweating. He must be feeling very dejected that instead of putting in
:30:51. > :30:59.had a box with a lid on, whatever has gone into the box the lid has
:30:59. > :31:03.gone. And we have a very, very big explosion going on. Which could
:31:03. > :31:08.come back on him? Of new allegations, absolutely, questions
:31:08. > :31:14.about what he knew, why he wasn't asking himself more questions, or
:31:14. > :31:21.asking questions of other people. All of this will come up. Joining
:31:21. > :31:23.me is Anna Adams who has spent this evening in various disreputable
:31:24. > :31:27.drinking holes, what happened today? Everyone was called into a
:31:27. > :31:31.short meeting this afternoon. Only five minutes. They had absolutely
:31:31. > :31:35.no idea, they told me, what was happening, not even an inkling.
:31:35. > :31:39.They were called in, Rebekah Brooks held a meeting, they said she was
:31:39. > :31:43.very nervous, her voice was cracking. Every thought they were
:31:43. > :31:48.preparing for a boycott and they were told to watch out it would be
:31:48. > :31:54.a bad week. Then she started saying the paper had been running for so
:31:54. > :31:57.many years, then they said they knew what was coming. There is a
:31:57. > :32:02.sense they are carrying the can for past regime, a lot of young staff
:32:02. > :32:09.had nothing to do with this. They hadn't even heard of Glenn Mulcaire,
:32:09. > :32:13.why are they losing their jobs. I spoke to a News of the World
:32:13. > :32:19.columnist, she has been on Fleet Street for 30 years, she says it's
:32:19. > :32:22.one of the most professional papers there. None of us saw this coming,
:32:22. > :32:27.we believed a title around for 168 years would get through this.
:32:27. > :32:30.Everyone in that room today had nothing to do with what went on in
:32:30. > :32:34.the past. I don't know how much more the News of the World could
:32:34. > :32:39.have changed in the past five years than it has already. It is an
:32:39. > :32:44.entirely different paper to what it was in the last regime. I have been
:32:44. > :32:50.here for three-and-a-half years I'm proud to work for this organisation
:32:50. > :32:56.and the paper. What about the mood of some others? I was in a pub in
:32:56. > :33:00.Wapping and it was a bit like a wake a lot of alcohol, reminiscing
:33:00. > :33:03.and hugging. Defiant, saying they will get jobs elsewhere, inwardly
:33:03. > :33:07.they are furious that Rebekah Brooks could keep her job. They are
:33:07. > :33:12.all going to lose their's, when they weren't there and she was.
:33:12. > :33:14.Inwardly there is a lot of anger about that. There is a 90-day
:33:14. > :33:20.consultation period, nobody would say that on camera. They gathered
:33:20. > :33:24.from the Mail and Mirror, they came down to show their support. The
:33:24. > :33:34.feeling was this will hasten the demise of newspapers in general.
:33:34. > :33:39.This is the television Tom Latchham. Frustrated, angry, surprised, shock,
:33:39. > :33:44.how would you feel if you were told don't show up next week your job
:33:44. > :33:49.has finished. All those things. Exactly there were tears, I went
:33:49. > :33:54.into the office as soon as I found out there were tears, sadness, hugs.
:33:54. > :34:01.People standing around not knowing what to do. And there were all
:34:01. > :34:04.those feelings. I think now we are coming to terms with it. I think we
:34:04. > :34:09.are thinking tomorrow is another day. Joining me now is the
:34:09. > :34:14.political editor of the News of the World, David Wooding, the former
:34:14. > :34:18.Express and Independent editor, Rosie Boycott, and Rupert Murdoch's
:34:18. > :34:22.biographer, William Shawcross. We heard what Anna Adams had to say,
:34:22. > :34:28.you were there. Was there a feeling that the News of the World was
:34:28. > :34:32.being hung out to dry, and you were a toxic brand and had you to go?
:34:32. > :34:36.came as a bolt from the blue. It has been a week in which revelation
:34:36. > :34:40.after revelation has come out. There was a stage when we were
:34:40. > :34:44.saying can it get any worse than this. It continued to get worse
:34:44. > :34:50.every day. Nobody expected this. Did this think it was a good move,
:34:50. > :34:53.had the paper lost its reputation? Yes, we had been sullied by what
:34:53. > :34:58.happened five or ten years ago by a previous staff. We are carrying the
:34:58. > :35:03.can, as you say. The people who work there there is only three in
:35:03. > :35:06.executive roles who work there at the time. People were saying
:35:06. > :35:10.privately, not publicly, why should they lose their jobs and Rebekah
:35:10. > :35:18.Brooks Kiev her's? Rebekah is not editing News of the World, she's
:35:18. > :35:22.the chief executive of the group, she has gone into deep carpet land.
:35:22. > :35:27.But the editor of the News of the World, as he is now, Colin Myler,
:35:27. > :35:30.took over five or six years ago and is as clean as they come. Rosie
:35:30. > :35:34.Boycott, you have edited two newspapers, what do you make of
:35:34. > :35:39.what happened today, for the ranks and the people in the deep carpets?
:35:39. > :35:43.I think it is terrible to blame the News of the World for what has
:35:43. > :35:47.happened. Who is to blame is the people who work there. Who set the
:35:47. > :35:50.culture? And how high that goes is still to be seen. The culture comes
:35:50. > :35:57.from the top. The need to get stories, the decision to break
:35:57. > :36:02.rules, the decision to phone hack, to go that extra 200 miles into
:36:02. > :36:07.illegality. And any editors, news editors, overall editors, editors
:36:07. > :36:11.in chief didn't know what was going on, is just inconceivable. It is
:36:11. > :36:15.inconceivable that someone would be paying someone the kind of sum that
:36:15. > :36:22.is Glenn Mulcaire was earning, �50,000, and not know everything he
:36:22. > :36:28.was doing. Do you think the paper was that bit out of control? As I
:36:28. > :36:32.said earlier, it was on an industrial scale, I believe the
:36:32. > :36:40.editors knew, if they didn't, then it was out of control. You
:36:40. > :36:44.completely agree that is it is inconceivable, that more than
:36:44. > :36:46.�100,000, going to a private detective, without anyone knowing
:36:46. > :36:50.about it? You were Rupert Murdoch's
:36:50. > :36:55.biographer and know him well including motivations. Is it
:36:55. > :36:59.realistic that he did not have a grip, I know he was upper echelon,
:36:59. > :37:05.he zfrpbt have a grip on what was going - he didn't have a grip on
:37:05. > :37:10.what was happening at the papers, he must have kept an eye on all
:37:10. > :37:16.this time. Was there not an inkling he let things go too far. Avenues
:37:16. > :37:20.control frequent wasn't he? I don't think he is, he lets editors have a
:37:20. > :37:23.free hand if he trusts them. He accepts responsibility for this
:37:23. > :37:28.appalling thing that has happened. And Alan Rusbridger and the
:37:28. > :37:32.Guardian have done well to, pose it over a long period of him. Never
:37:32. > :37:37.the less, Murdoch was living most of the time in America during this
:37:37. > :37:42.period. He has moved to Los Angeles and New York. It wasn't in day-to-
:37:42. > :37:46.day control. His son was? More recently, yes. I want to ask
:37:46. > :37:50.William what is your view about why Rebekah Brooks is still being
:37:50. > :37:53.backed, when it is clear that not just public opinion, and legal
:37:53. > :37:59.opinion, possibly, will come to see what kind of responsibility she
:37:59. > :38:02.bother for this, she was the editor when Milly Dowler's phone was
:38:02. > :38:06.hacked? I believe you are right, I understand that, that would be the
:38:06. > :38:09.public view now, I don't know what her role was. I want to know what
:38:09. > :38:15.you think Murdoch is doing in carrying on supporting her in this
:38:15. > :38:20.job and having his son say on camera she's doing a good job?
:38:20. > :38:25.presumably believes she's innocent of the allegations and charges.
:38:25. > :38:30.this doesn't shut it down, what damage ultimately does it do to the
:38:30. > :38:36.wider Murdoch empire? I don't know, it is too early to say. You said it
:38:36. > :38:42.was held below the water line. I hope that is not the case. Despite
:38:42. > :38:45.what's happening in this horrendous scandal, Murdoch is one of the best
:38:45. > :38:50.things that happened to British journalist, without his battle with
:38:50. > :38:57.the print unions back then, he made papers profitable. Without him
:38:57. > :39:02.there would be no BSkyB, and no competition for you at the BBC.
:39:02. > :39:08.think that is fair point. He's bold, imaginative and he loves newspaper,
:39:08. > :39:12.which makes it surprising he has taken that decision today. I think
:39:12. > :39:17.the thing we need to talk about is what happened in the last two years.
:39:17. > :39:24.We published this story two years ago to the day. This company has
:39:24. > :39:27.been wriggling, it denied it, it went to parliament, police, it has
:39:27. > :39:33.misled everybody, they are still paying Glenn Mulcaire, the one
:39:33. > :39:36.person who has known the truth. They have been highly resistant to
:39:36. > :39:40.the lawsuits. This idea that they were kes operate to get the story
:39:40. > :39:44.out is not true. I'm struck by what you said that
:39:44. > :39:47.Rupert Murdoch murd was a good thing because he's a - Murdoch mur
:39:47. > :39:54.was a good thing because he understands newspapers. If he's a
:39:54. > :39:58.good thing, what is wrong with him owning BSkyB. I don't subscribe to
:39:58. > :40:06.the school that he's the devil incarnate, in terms of newspapers
:40:06. > :40:13.he has kept the Times afloat. has lost �87 million two years ago
:40:13. > :40:22.and �47 million last year. No other proprietor could do that.
:40:22. > :40:26.We have heard there will be a Phoenix on Sunday. This is now a
:40:26. > :40:29.problem for tabloid papers across the board. This is the start of the
:40:29. > :40:32.obvious demise? There is no hiding the fact that tabloid papers are
:40:32. > :40:38.suffering at the moment. We were called in by Rebekah Brooks a few
:40:38. > :40:43.weeks ago and said we have to diversify into the website. It is a
:40:44. > :40:47.difficult time for tabloid papers. What they have done with News of
:40:47. > :40:51.the World, if we lost half the circulation, we would still sell
:40:52. > :40:57.more than virtually every other Sunday newspaper. Is it the end of
:40:57. > :41:03.the tabloids? No, you can see by the success of the Mail on-line. It
:41:03. > :41:08.is also about gossip. The cynical interpretation of this is Murdoch
:41:08. > :41:14.will see News of the World will lose money and advertiser, you shut
:41:14. > :41:17.it down, you rehire the ones you want at lower rates, and start up
:41:17. > :41:23.the Sun on Sunday. There is a suggestion that this is a grand
:41:23. > :41:29.plan? I don't think it is a grand plan, but it has a financial plan
:41:29. > :41:33.to it, cooked newspaper the last 48 hours. It doesn't mean if you buy
:41:33. > :41:38.the Sun you buy the News of the World, different readerships.
:41:38. > :41:42.not just that these papers, it is all newspapers, that is why Murdoch
:41:42. > :41:47.has tried pay walls over the Sunday Times and the Wall Street Journal.
:41:47. > :41:51.This is a paper he has rescued in America. The culture of tabloid
:41:51. > :41:54.journalism, now, this will be a real problem, people see the victim,
:41:54. > :41:57.I understand there will be more information to come, more hacking
:41:57. > :42:06.to come, whether victims or politicians, I don't know. The more
:42:06. > :42:10.this keeps going and the more that victims are hacked, everyone is
:42:10. > :42:14.tainted with the same problem? culture we will lose is the culture
:42:14. > :42:22.of campaigning journalism by the News of the Worldment we won the
:42:23. > :42:27.military covenant enshrined in law with our campaign. We raised �1.5
:42:27. > :42:29.million for the McCann's in 48 hours. All these things are
:42:29. > :42:34.overshadowed by the appalling behaviour of these people, who the
:42:34. > :42:42.not only sullied the brand but put us all out of work today. It makes
:42:42. > :42:52.it a confusing day, doesn't it? is an astonishing day. It will be
:42:52. > :42:58.sad if we lose the ability of tabloids to exist, they raise a lot
:42:58. > :43:04.of money. It doesn't needing to. don't think we would have been in
:43:04. > :43:08.this position is Rebekah Brooks and jaisms Murdoch took action in July
:43:08. > :43:15.2009. James Murdoch inherit his father's empire? I don't know if he
:43:15. > :43:20.wants to, it is a long way on. few moments I will be speaking to
:43:20. > :43:27.the legendary Watergate journalist, Bob Woodward.
:43:27. > :43:32.Another bigger ra ends tomorrow, although one with a more noble
:43:32. > :43:37.mission. The space shuttle Atlantis will take off into the Florida sky,
:43:37. > :43:42.the last space shuttle launch ever. We have been across to America to
:43:42. > :43:47.talk to the teams that want to take over, now NASA is stepping aside,
:43:47. > :43:52.including one today that signed a deal in using Kennedy space
:43:52. > :43:57.facilities. Opening up for everyone, not just astronautings. What could
:43:57. > :44:06.be the next chapter in space - astronauts. What could be the next
:44:06. > :44:11.chapter in space? By tomorrow morning, this beach
:44:11. > :44:16.will be packed, it is a has been for every significant launch,
:44:16. > :44:21.because this is Coco Beach in Florida, the closest to Kennedy
:44:21. > :44:25.Space Center, and the launch pad of the space shuttle. This beach has
:44:25. > :44:35.seen everything, from the first American in space, and Lance
:44:35. > :44:36.
:44:36. > :44:40.Armstrong on the moon. And, of course, every shuttle launch.
:44:40. > :44:45.The shuttle is magnificent, of course, but it is really a delivery
:44:45. > :44:49.van, it is a way of getting stuff up to the space station. When
:44:49. > :44:53.people were inspired by space, they think of Apollo and the moon
:44:53. > :44:58.landings, that is what inspired the space fans, the enthusiasts, the
:44:58. > :45:01.billionares, people like me into science. The shuttle never really
:45:01. > :45:04.did. Your average shuttle launch was never very memorable, and
:45:04. > :45:10.neither was the shuttle particularly good at the frequent
:45:10. > :45:13.cheap space hops it promised. But its friends say it was still a
:45:14. > :45:19.pioneer. The shuttle is huge, it is like a big aeroplane, and the fact
:45:19. > :45:23.that it did not turn out to be as inexpensive as people hoped, and we
:45:23. > :45:33.couldn't fly it as frequent. It was the first generation, nobody knew
:45:33. > :45:34.
:45:34. > :45:39.how to build a reusable space shift. So is it time for radical change in
:45:40. > :45:43.gear, opening up space to more than just elite astronauts. In the 1960,
:45:43. > :45:48.that is what I promised, space travel for everybody, you and me.
:45:48. > :45:53.Here in the rockies, they think they might have a way to do that.
:45:53. > :45:58.In the basement at Colorado University, there is a team using
:45:58. > :46:03.NASA money and an old NASA spacecraft to try to fly people
:46:03. > :46:09.into space. It is headed by a veteran of five shuttle missions.
:46:09. > :46:14.You must be Jim? Welcome. That is the ship we are in, not that one,
:46:14. > :46:22.it is a scale model. This one, a mock-up, tucked into the corner.
:46:22. > :46:25.left NASA in 2003 and went to teach into university. I came back to
:46:25. > :46:30.work on the new commercial space industry to attempt to take this
:46:30. > :46:35.vehicle off the shelf, from what NASA had done to use modern
:46:35. > :46:39.technology and materials to make it into a new spacecraft to take
:46:39. > :46:45.humans to the International Space Station and back. In zero gravity
:46:45. > :46:49.it is very nice, we would float gently towards the end of the
:46:49. > :46:53.tunnel, there would be plenty of room. In terms of experimentry with
:46:53. > :47:03.this craft, what is this about up here? This is a model of the dream
:47:03. > :47:03.
:47:03. > :47:07.chaser. They dropped the one fifth scale model from 40,000 feet, this
:47:08. > :47:14.flew autonomously and then parachuted back to earth. They are
:47:14. > :47:22.also building a full size version for structure tests. They are
:47:22. > :47:25.working out how best to play controls, which is proudly homemade.
:47:25. > :47:29.Pull back gently, softly we will come back up. This is how you start
:47:29. > :47:33.programmes like this. The students started off with cardboard, they
:47:33. > :47:38.cut out boxs to make their first cockpit and made the panels.
:47:38. > :47:44.Because it is very cheap, they spent $20 on the first panel
:47:44. > :47:50.displays. They get the idea on that. Then they built the more rigid
:47:50. > :47:54.structure with panels and switches they can replace. You can swap them
:47:54. > :47:58.out with others and they can test different types of switches. People
:47:58. > :48:03.will look at this and think not NASA? It is, NASA does the same
:48:03. > :48:11.thing, they spend a lot more money doing the same thing that we have
:48:11. > :48:18.done. This cost us $30,000. The quality and evacillations was as
:48:18. > :48:22.good as I have seen at NASA. The dream chaser project has $20
:48:22. > :48:30.million of NASA money. Just today it signed a deal to take off and
:48:30. > :48:35.land at the Kennedy Space Center. It dependss on buying a NASA rocket
:48:35. > :48:42.for launch. Out here in the California desert like Anne proch
:48:42. > :48:47.that evokes the 1950s. It is doing away with all the bureaucracy and
:48:47. > :48:57.the slow timetable, it is back to workshops, that kind of, we can do
:48:57. > :48:59.
:48:59. > :49:04.it, quickly and cheaply, mentality. A strange mix of businesses here.
:49:04. > :49:10.The people here want a step by step approach, than NASA's grand
:49:10. > :49:14.projects. Why is this place unique? It is a few miles from the airport
:49:14. > :49:22.where test pilots flew into the unknown, breaking the sound barrier
:49:22. > :49:26.and on to the edge of space. Before NASA existed. The big boys are here,
:49:26. > :49:31.over there is Virgin's space ship two. Over here we have a company
:49:31. > :49:36.that wants to take people to space for about half the price, in that
:49:36. > :49:40.ship. If you want to hop on the cockpit I will give you a tour.
:49:40. > :49:44.That was another model, inside this one is a rocket plane they have
:49:44. > :49:49.already flown in. You fit pretty good, you could be a
:49:49. > :49:54.rocket pilot. Have you guys had chance to ride in this one?
:49:54. > :50:04.rocket raceer we all had a ride. What did it feel like? Amazing,
:50:04. > :50:12.
:50:12. > :50:16.when you tow out to the runway, you are in a quiet place. 3-2-1 you hit
:50:16. > :50:21.the switch, and your head is pinned to the street.
:50:21. > :50:27.What is the link between what you are doing and the old X planes?
:50:27. > :50:32.They thought simply to how we did, do incremental testing, don't make
:50:32. > :50:35.something giant, start small, we did that and proved we could build
:50:35. > :50:39.something safe enough to put someone in it.
:50:39. > :50:46.Their first two planes were not designed to go into space, but
:50:46. > :50:51.their third craft, the Lynx, still under construction, will be. Only
:50:51. > :50:56.for sub orbital flights, an easy option. In other part of the
:50:56. > :51:01.country there is a team working on a different approach. Moving away
:51:01. > :51:09.from planes, using capsules on top of rockets. What are you doing?
:51:09. > :51:16.This is a test lift of a single common propulsion modual. We call
:51:16. > :51:20.it that because this is the central building component for all our
:51:20. > :51:26.rockets. Five of these CPSs would be bundled together into the
:51:26. > :51:33.Neptune 30, it is called that because it lifts 30 kilograms to
:51:33. > :51:39.lower earth's orbit. This is crunch year for Randa and her husband, rod,
:51:39. > :51:44.they have been here for 16 years and plan this first orbital launch,
:51:44. > :51:49.which they say is sold out. Cheap satellites come first, but by 2014
:51:49. > :51:57.they want to send people up too. This is the six-person capsule. We
:51:57. > :52:01.will take a pilot and five crew members to do the earth orbit.
:52:01. > :52:04.is very ambitious, we are standing in front of the wooden mock-up. How
:52:04. > :52:09.will you convince people you will get ready for the stage of being
:52:09. > :52:15.ready for flight in three or four years? We have on going programmes
:52:15. > :52:18.that will demonstrate the viability of these rockets. First of all with
:52:18. > :52:23.our satellite launch vehicles. That will be a great confidence builder.
:52:23. > :52:28.We are looking to travel ourselves. So we want to make this as safe and
:52:28. > :52:33.reliable as possible. That is why we have built rocket that is are so
:52:33. > :52:38.radically simplified in their systems, that they will be safest
:52:38. > :52:48.types of vehicles around. Do you think you will be one of the first
:52:48. > :52:52.
:52:52. > :52:55.passengers? Not the first, because we will be conducting the launch.
:52:55. > :53:00.At the moment these smaller companies are really not ready,
:53:00. > :53:03.maybe it is time now to give them a few years, see if they can have a
:53:03. > :53:11.shot of the dream of making space available to more people, people
:53:11. > :53:14.like you and me. The future pay belong to the
:53:15. > :53:19.smaller outfits, but to those who play a part in the shuttle years,
:53:19. > :53:23.there is a lot to be proud of. The mission to prepare the Hubble
:53:23. > :53:30.Telescope is the most memorable, a the man who walked in space to fix
:53:30. > :53:33.it agrees. I have done satellite, science experiments, I have fixed
:53:33. > :53:43.Hubble, I have done spacewalks, I have had a great time. Maybe he's
:53:43. > :53:44.
:53:44. > :53:49.right, there is a lot to remember about the shuttle years.
:53:49. > :53:55.# If you should ever leave me # Life would go on believe me
:53:55. > :54:05.# Life could show nothing to me # What good would living do me
:54:05. > :54:07.
:54:07. > :54:12.# God only knows what I'd The shuttle may have failed to
:54:12. > :54:22.bring space flight to the mass, but over $500 million a launch, it
:54:22. > :54:25.
:54:25. > :54:28.would never do that. But it still had its moments.
:54:28. > :54:33.Now back to the death of the News of the World. Joining me now from
:54:33. > :54:37.Washington to give the view across the Atlantic on our newspaper
:54:37. > :54:40.scandals is Bob Woodward, the legendary reporter who broke
:54:40. > :54:46.Watergate. Thank you very much for joining us. How does today's drama
:54:46. > :54:54.look from where you are sitting? is a lightning bolt. And the idea
:54:54. > :54:58.of closing this newspaper, I have never heard of something like this
:54:58. > :55:03.in the news business. Because of an investigation, a scandal. Initially
:55:03. > :55:10.I was concerned that the whole Government was kind of piling on
:55:10. > :55:15.poor Rupert Murdoch. But for him to close the newspaper, is, in a sense,
:55:15. > :55:20.a plea deal. In other words, he is saying there is something seriously
:55:20. > :55:26.rotten here, so rotten we are going to get rid of this organ in the
:55:26. > :55:32.body. Now I think the impact of that will be to unleash everyone. I
:55:32. > :55:36.mean I heard two cases today of people saying this is a giant media
:55:36. > :55:44.scandal. There are books in it, investigative reporters are going
:55:44. > :55:49.to be out. People who work their there are going to be interviewed.
:55:49. > :55:55.Probably new revelations and so forth, you will have this very,
:55:55. > :56:02.very serious opening of the bod. I guess it should officially in
:56:02. > :56:06.America. Tell me more, seriously b the
:56:06. > :56:09.empire, what do you think about - about the empire, what effect do
:56:09. > :56:15.you think it will have on the empire in the states? It will
:56:15. > :56:23.depend on the facts. Here it will be called Rupertgate, and it has
:56:23. > :56:29.got all of the elements, all of the power, all of the secrecy, give
:56:29. > :56:33.Rupert Murdoch his due, brilliant manager of newspapers. He's done an
:56:33. > :56:43.awful lot, made an awful lot of money. Everyone wants to look at
:56:43. > :56:44.
:56:44. > :56:48.all of the details here. He is in for a real scrubbing. Here we have
:56:48. > :56:52.a situation where he closes the newspaper, all the journalists go.
:56:52. > :56:55.But his chief executive, Rebekah Brooks, editor at the time of one
:56:55. > :57:03.of the alleged phone hackings, still in their positionment does
:57:03. > :57:08.that have all the elements of a drama. That he's protecting her as
:57:09. > :57:13.a human shield for his son James. If you remember in Watergate the
:57:13. > :57:18.question about Nixon was what did he know and when did he know it.
:57:18. > :57:24.The question is obvious about Rupert Murdoch b Rebekah, what did
:57:24. > :57:28.she know and when did she know it. There are official, police and
:57:28. > :57:32.Government, investigations, which I suspect will try to get to the
:57:32. > :57:37.bottom of it. Other report remembers, in the United States
:57:37. > :57:44.here, there is a real rivalry that has escalated between the New York
:57:44. > :57:49.Times and Murdoch's Wall Street Journal. I noticed today, the New
:57:49. > :57:57.York Times had a front page story about all the criticism of Murdoch,
:57:57. > :58:04.and another story in the business section. The former New York Times
:58:04. > :58:08.editor used to say, "flood the zone", they will have all sorts of
:58:08. > :58:14.reporters on that. He is an elderly man, and we don't know when the
:58:14. > :58:20.acsession will be. Will it survive as an empire, or with the demise of
:58:20. > :58:23.Rupert Murdoch, the whole landscape will change, even for tabloid
:58:23. > :58:29.journalists and investigative journalisms. We don't know the
:58:29. > :58:33.future, everything can happen, and it will depend hopefully on the
:58:33. > :58:38.facts. There shouldn't be a presumption that they don't have
:58:38. > :58:43.the evidence yet, to show that X, or Y, knew all about it. My
:58:43. > :58:49.following of it, this is a scandal that has been festering for months,
:58:49. > :58:53.for years. A wise executive at the top, if I may say, when you have
:58:53. > :58:56.something like that going on for months l say, let's clean house,
:58:56. > :59:06.let's get to the bottom of it. He obviously didn't do that.
:59:06. > :59:38.