:00:11. > :00:13.The phone hacking scandal appears to have sunk Murdoch mur's attempt
:00:14. > :00:18.to takeover BSkyB television. The man who once had politicians dance
:00:18. > :00:22.to his tune, now finds them united in opposition. Even the leadership
:00:22. > :00:29.of his own News Corp is now in question. As politicians of all
:00:29. > :00:33.parties turn on the family and its Lieutenant, are the Murdochs facing
:00:33. > :00:36.both internal revolt and external. News International was involved in
:00:36. > :00:41.hiring people to get this information. The people they work
:00:41. > :00:47.with are criminals, known criminal, criminals with records. Senior
:00:47. > :00:50.police officers too feel the heat. Did you receive payment from any
:00:50. > :00:53.news organisation? Gooden, absolutely not, I can't believe you
:00:53. > :00:58.suggested that. We're joined by a former Conservative Party chairman
:00:58. > :01:03.a former newspaper editor, and you know who.
:01:03. > :01:05.Also tonight, the slow motion car crash of the eurozone debt crisis,
:01:05. > :01:09.can Europe's gathered finance ministers wriggle out of the latest
:01:09. > :01:19.mess. In Northern Ireland, why is there rioting in a society now
:01:19. > :01:24.
:01:24. > :01:28.The phone hacking scandal is like a match dropped into a box of
:01:28. > :01:33.firework, no-one knows what is going to explode next. Today the
:01:33. > :01:37.former Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, accused another News International
:01:37. > :01:40.title, the Sunday Times, of using known criminals to invade his
:01:40. > :01:43.privacy. Policemen did their best to explain why their investigation
:01:43. > :01:48.had been so useless. Tonight the leaders of the three main parties
:01:48. > :01:52.have been holding talk about what sort of inquiry should be held. We
:01:52. > :01:55.have the latest. What has been happening tonight? David Cameron
:01:55. > :02:00.has been talking to Ed Miliband, Nick Clegg and also to Paul
:02:00. > :02:06.Stevenson, the Metropolitan Police commissioner. They are pretty close,
:02:06. > :02:09.the parties, to agreement, on the inquiry. I say inquiry, because it
:02:09. > :02:12.now looks like there aren't going to be two inquiries, but
:02:12. > :02:17.effectively there will be one. This will be announced in a statement to
:02:17. > :02:21.be given by the Prime Minister to the Commons after Prime Minister's
:02:21. > :02:24.Questions tomorrow. Initially David Cameron was talking about a
:02:24. > :02:29.judicial-led inquiry to look into the News of the World case what
:02:29. > :02:33.specifically went on there, and a second non-judicial inquiry into
:02:33. > :02:37.media practices and ethics. Now effectively it looks like the media
:02:37. > :02:40.practice and ethics part of it will be a sub-committee of the judicial
:02:40. > :02:46.inquiry. It is quite likely tomorrow that we will hear which
:02:46. > :02:49.judge has been appointed to do the job. Equally important, it looks
:02:49. > :02:55.like Labour and the Liberal Democrats have persuaded David
:02:55. > :03:00.Cameron to widen the terms of this inquiry, the judicial inquiry, so
:03:00. > :03:04.that it will be looking into not just what went on in the news news,
:03:04. > :03:09.but relations between the press and the police in general, and also
:03:09. > :03:13.relations between politicians and the press in general. L as I
:03:13. > :03:17.understand it, it is intended - also, as I understand it, it will
:03:17. > :03:20.mean politicians and newspaper editors will have to come along and
:03:20. > :03:25.give testimony under oath. This means that parliamentary debate
:03:25. > :03:29.tomorrow will be something of a damp squib, isn't it? Well, it is n
:03:29. > :03:32.way. Because the parties have agreed that they will support
:03:32. > :03:35.Labour's opposition motion, which is that this House believes it is
:03:35. > :03:38.in the public interest for Rupert Murdoch and News Corporation to
:03:38. > :03:43.withdraw their bid for BSkyB. The Liberal Democrats announced they
:03:44. > :03:47.can go along with that, and so too has the Government now. There is
:03:47. > :03:55.some question as to whether there will actually be a vote tomorrow.
:03:55. > :04:00.If nobody opposed that, then the Speaker asks for aclammation, and
:04:00. > :04:05.if nobody - acclaimation and if nobody says anything then it is
:04:05. > :04:12.passed. It would be a good idea to have a formal vote, so you not only
:04:12. > :04:18.have a list of name there is, but also if the vote was 528-2, that
:04:18. > :04:20.would be a more powerful message to News Corporation, than simply by
:04:20. > :04:24.acclaimation. It would be interesting to know who the two
:04:24. > :04:29.were. What about Gordon Brown's intervention today, this was quite
:04:29. > :04:32.new, wasn't it? Yes, we heard last night about a number of activities
:04:32. > :04:38.that other newspapers, beyond News of the World, the Sun and the
:04:38. > :04:41.Sunday Times h allegedly been doing in relation - had allegedly been
:04:41. > :04:47.doing in relation to Gordon Brown in particular. The story the Sun
:04:47. > :04:50.broke about his son Fraser having cystic fibrosis, which they broke a
:04:50. > :04:54.few months after his son Fraser was born. This is Gordon Brown's
:04:54. > :05:04.reaction in an interview by the BBC. REPORTER: How did that affect you
:05:04. > :05:05.
:05:05. > :05:09.as a father? In tears. Your son is now going to be broadcast across
:05:09. > :05:12.the media. Sarah and I incredibly upset about it, we are thinking
:05:12. > :05:19.about his long-term future, we are thinking about our family, but
:05:19. > :05:24.there is nothing you can do about it. I find it quite incredible that
:05:25. > :05:28.supposedly reputable organisations made their money, produced its
:05:28. > :05:32.commercial results at the expense of ordinary people, by using known
:05:32. > :05:38.criminals, that is now what has to be investigated. With us now is the
:05:38. > :05:44.spokesman for the Hacked Off campaign, Hugh Grant, executive
:05:44. > :05:46.editor of the Times and Lord Fowler who used to head the communications
:05:46. > :05:51.committee. Your organisation is seeing David Cameron tomorrow, what
:05:52. > :05:57.are you asking him for? We were worried, given that it was only two
:05:57. > :06:02.or three weeks ago that David Cameron was sipping Pimm's on
:06:02. > :06:07.Rupert Murdoch's lawn, we were worried in case we can really trust
:06:07. > :06:09.him to have done a permanent turn about in the way he seems to have
:06:09. > :06:14.done. We were worried particularly given the Culture Secretary's
:06:14. > :06:19.statement in the House the other day, on the proposed terms of the
:06:19. > :06:23.inquiry, that it looked a bit feeble. It looked like maybe
:06:23. > :06:28.Cameron's choice was to sort of slightly push the whole thing into
:06:28. > :06:32.the long grass and not do a proper inquiry. The Hacked Off group,
:06:32. > :06:37.which includes lawyers and journalists and so on created a set
:06:37. > :06:41.of terms that we thought the inquiry should include, they are
:06:41. > :06:44.published in the Guardian tomorrow and they are on-line now. We have
:06:44. > :06:47.been going around asking the leader of the opposition and Nick Clegg.
:06:47. > :06:52.They are on board. The next stop is Cameron. It sounds from what we
:06:52. > :06:55.heard just now he's on board now. The meet something rather
:06:55. > :07:02.unnecessary? It is rather unnecessary me being here if that
:07:02. > :07:06.is true. You guys want, the inquiry under a judge? One. And you say
:07:06. > :07:13.that should happen at the same time as any police inquiry? Because we
:07:13. > :07:16.only heard today from Aikers this could take years an inquiry.
:07:16. > :07:20.judge could require them to take evidence under oath and they would
:07:20. > :07:23.be required to incriminate themselves? We are told by top
:07:24. > :07:28.lawyers you can circumnavigate that if you are a decent judge and you
:07:28. > :07:33.can get the inquiry going on under all kinds of basis before calling
:07:33. > :07:38.in people who might or might not incriminate themselves. What about
:07:39. > :07:42.this inquiry? I think it would be good to look at the way newspapers
:07:42. > :07:46.have operated, obviously things have gone on that are wrong, a lot
:07:46. > :07:50.of people have been punished and a newspaper has been closed, which is
:07:50. > :07:54.a great sadness in my view. Some of the mud is sticking to the
:07:54. > :07:59.reputation of the British press and British journalists and journalism,
:07:59. > :08:03.which I think is the best in the world, it is fierce and robust.
:08:03. > :08:07.Clearly there is an inquiry, it has been set up, I fear for the future
:08:07. > :08:10.of regulation, I fear we will move into a much more state-controlled
:08:10. > :08:14.organisation looking at the press. I think this will be bad for the
:08:14. > :08:19.freedom of the press and for journalism. Why are you shaking
:08:19. > :08:24.your head? I just think that's rubbish that last part. I have been
:08:24. > :08:29.pressing for an inquiry into this since February. I'm delighted that
:08:29. > :08:32.we are having one. I think there are a whole range of areas you can
:08:32. > :08:35.go into, without in any way interfering with the criminal
:08:35. > :08:37.process. The Press Complaints Commission, to say, you don't
:08:37. > :08:41.necessarily have to have a statutory commission, but I think
:08:41. > :08:45.no-one would argue, I think, for a moment, that the Press Complaints
:08:45. > :08:50.Commission come out of this smelling of roses. They haven't
:08:50. > :08:55.been able to actually. I would, I was on it for a long time. I'm not
:08:55. > :08:58.sure that is the best defence if you don't mind me saying so
:08:58. > :09:01.personally! It hasn't exposed what has taken place there. Now, that
:09:01. > :09:05.may be because it didn't have the power, or maybe it didn't have the
:09:05. > :09:09.will, but we need to actually have a look at those sorts of things.
:09:09. > :09:14.That can take place without interfering in any way. Plus we
:09:14. > :09:19.could start to look at one of the things, we were so keen at Hacked
:09:19. > :09:28.Off was within the remit of the inquiry, which is the politicians'
:09:28. > :09:33.relationship with the media. Which has started to look very smelly to
:09:33. > :09:38.the public. How frightened are politicians of News International.
:09:38. > :09:43.You will never get an answer to that in an inairy. Somebody will
:09:43. > :09:51.say they were scared of - an inquiry, somebody will say they
:09:51. > :09:55.were scared. And was there any nobbling of a politician, to what
:09:55. > :10:02.extent. Why otherwise were both main parties utterly cosied up to
:10:02. > :10:05.Murdoch for so long if there wasn't an element of fear? They weren't
:10:05. > :10:10.utterly cosied up, political leaders talk to major businessmen,
:10:10. > :10:14.there is nothing wrong with that at all. I think Hugh Grant is right, I
:10:14. > :10:18.was chairman of a political party, I do know this, although I have to
:10:18. > :10:22.say under John Major we weren't very successful in cosying up to
:10:23. > :10:27.anyone. Were you ever scared? what? Of being expoded by a
:10:27. > :10:30.newspaper for something, did you ever - exposed by a newspaper for
:10:30. > :10:34.something, did you ever feel beholden to a newspaper? No, I'm
:10:34. > :10:39.not very good at this. This looks like the political class trying to
:10:39. > :10:44.get a bit of revengs for the whole stuff over MPs' expenses and
:10:44. > :10:49.bringing the press to heel so they don't ask awkward inquiries? That
:10:49. > :10:53.is not my view. I think the healthy thing that should come out of all
:10:53. > :11:00.this, Roger might agree with this, is you get some clear water between
:11:00. > :11:05.the political parties on one side and the media on the other. What
:11:05. > :11:09.has gone wrong with this relationship is this cosying up
:11:09. > :11:15.with the relationship. Tony Blair going over to Australia to speak to
:11:15. > :11:21.executives of News International, you don't get that in ordinary
:11:21. > :11:26.relationships. And the Christmas dinners with Rebekah Wade. Why
:11:26. > :11:31.aren't they on the record? That was a private dinner, why shouldn't
:11:31. > :11:36.people have a private dinner. stinks. He can have dinner what
:11:36. > :11:39.with whoever he likes? Not if it is major corporation trying to take
:11:39. > :11:42.over our biggest satellite broadcaster t stinks to high heaven,
:11:42. > :11:46.with a huge criminal suspicion hanging over it, because the phone
:11:46. > :11:54.hacking thing has been around for a long time. Would he have had dinner
:11:54. > :11:59.with the chairman of BP if they criminal stuff hanging over them.
:11:59. > :12:02.That sort of thing won't happen in future. What you will find is
:12:02. > :12:06.political leaders and politicians generally will be very cautious
:12:06. > :12:10.indeed, I hope in the same way that the media will also be very
:12:10. > :12:14.cautious. If we can have a new start, as far as all that is
:12:14. > :12:19.concerned, I think it is in everyone's interest. I think that
:12:19. > :12:24.will happen. I think the natural position for journalists as an
:12:24. > :12:28.outsider, you are observing, you're citising, and analysing and trying
:12:28. > :12:32.- criticising and analysing and trying to find out what is going
:12:32. > :12:37.wrong, you can't get too close. you have got too close. I remember
:12:37. > :12:41.in the Sun in the 1992 election, it was the Sun that won it. It was
:12:41. > :12:45.complete rubbish. Can I just say one tiny thing about, that the Sun
:12:45. > :12:48.headline about the last one in turn the lights out. That wasn't telling
:12:49. > :12:52.people to not vote for Neil Kinnock, it was recognised and if people
:12:52. > :12:57.voted for Neil Kinnock they would be bonkers, and nobody did vote for
:12:57. > :13:01.him. If I was Neil Kinnock I might not take that rosy view. The press
:13:01. > :13:06.follow and adapt and adjust, they don't govern people. I think
:13:06. > :13:10.politicians have faken it far too much that it is the press that can
:13:10. > :13:15.actually influence the outcome of elections. Is this just about the
:13:15. > :13:19.murd mur press or is it wider than that? - Murdoch press or is it
:13:19. > :13:24.wider? It is wider, we all know, that we will gradually learn how
:13:24. > :13:28.much wider it was. Hopefully under this inquiry. Good investigative
:13:28. > :13:33.journalism such as the Guardian and the Independent have done brilliant,
:13:33. > :13:38.more and more will come out. I think there will be civil cases
:13:38. > :13:44.coming out, I speak from very close experience.
:13:44. > :13:47.I think the extraordinary thing in one way, is it has suddenly come
:13:48. > :13:52.out now. If you go back to 2006, you had the Information
:13:52. > :13:57.Commissioner putting much of this evidence into the public domain
:13:57. > :14:01.then, and absolutely nothing was done about it. That wasn't about
:14:01. > :14:04.phone hacking but breaches of the data act. It was about bribing.
:14:04. > :14:09.was the whole culture, you have private detective, you have the
:14:09. > :14:14.press, you have all the issues which are coming up in phone
:14:14. > :14:18.hacking, what was done then? Nothing. Did parts of the press
:14:18. > :14:21.take that as a green light for going on and doing things, I think
:14:21. > :14:24.they probably did. I think unquestionable parts of the press
:14:24. > :14:30.used private investigators far too much, and they became lazy and
:14:30. > :14:35.didn't find it out for themselves, it has come to an end. It is more
:14:35. > :14:39.than lazy it is illegal. Only the other day the Sun published my
:14:39. > :14:44.medical records, when I tried to sue them, you tried to do it with
:14:44. > :14:48.good humour, I say let's not go to a big legal cautious give me �5,000
:14:48. > :14:51.for a charity. They thought they were entirely within my rights to
:14:51. > :14:57.steal my medical rights and put them in their paper. When people
:14:57. > :15:02.say it is a thing of the past, it is bollocks. Nobody would condone
:15:02. > :15:07.that, it is truly bad behaviour and these things will start to fade and
:15:07. > :15:11.go. The big campaigns of the past, you take Harry Evan, Sunday Times,
:15:11. > :15:15.thalidomide. We have just had a huge campaign of trying to change
:15:15. > :15:19.the nature of abortion, adoption, I apologise. With respect, I don't
:15:19. > :15:23.think it is quite the same. We have led the campaign against the
:15:23. > :15:26.stoning of the women in Iraq. is one thing, what you are not
:15:27. > :15:29.doing is you are not investigating in the way the Sunday Times, in
:15:29. > :15:34.those days, investigated thalidomide, my point is that they
:15:34. > :15:39.never did this with phone hacking, they did it by patient digging, and
:15:39. > :15:43.that you could say the same about what happened in Washington as well.
:15:43. > :15:47.That's where the whole thing has changed. The press have used short
:15:47. > :15:54.cuts and illegal short cuts and not actually to do things of public
:15:54. > :15:58.interest. To find out who Ryan Giggs is having sex with, who cares.
:15:58. > :16:04.Ifrpblgt say you found out about arms smuggling or a child sex
:16:04. > :16:09.racket, would that be OK, what about the WikiLeaks, that is stolen
:16:09. > :16:13.document. The end, does that become a legitimising thing. I'm asking,
:16:13. > :16:16.we are in an unknown world there. It is not that unknown, if it is
:16:16. > :16:20.illegal it is illegal, it is against the law. What is the public
:16:20. > :16:23.interest? The public interest is that the law should be upheld, if
:16:23. > :16:29.the press can't see that then I mean, frankly, it shouldn't just be
:16:29. > :16:32.the News of the World. There was a public interest in expenses and
:16:32. > :16:37.this was questionably highly legal at times? I don't think there have
:16:37. > :16:40.been any prosecution ones that one, we have all agreed, I think, and I
:16:40. > :16:44.don't disagree there are lines, difficult lines, what isn't
:16:44. > :16:47.difficult is to actually condemn phone hacking and condemn the sort
:16:47. > :16:51.of thing that happened to Hugh Grant and a whole range of other
:16:51. > :16:54.people. Thank you all very much. Quite apart from what happens to Mr
:16:54. > :16:58.Murdoch's plans, there is the minor matter of how to salvage what's
:16:58. > :17:01.left of the reputation of the Metropolitan Police. Senior
:17:01. > :17:05.officers were called before House of Commons select committee today
:17:05. > :17:08.to explain how they had so comprehensively failed to carry
:17:08. > :17:13.through a proper investigation into apparent evidence that nearly 4,000
:17:13. > :17:16.people were hacked. The word "unimpressed" doesn't quite catch
:17:16. > :17:22.the measure of the MPs' disbelief. We have spent the day watching the
:17:22. > :17:26.detectives. They had bags of evidence,
:17:26. > :17:33.literally, bin bag, brimming with names and dates. It is just that
:17:33. > :17:43.no-one seemed to have much of what to do with it. The Met's finest
:17:43. > :17:43.
:17:43. > :17:47.hour, it certainly wasn't it? sounds like Cluso, rather than
:17:47. > :17:50.Columbo. Why did this investigation go so badly wrong? It was only
:17:50. > :17:56.triggered in the first place because of fears, founded fears, as
:17:56. > :18:00.it turned out b royal phones being hacked. It was led, therefore, by
:18:00. > :18:04.anti-terror police. Frankly, they weren't interested in lesser
:18:04. > :18:07.victims, nor were they interested in cleaning up dodgy press
:18:07. > :18:12.practices. Another reason we learned today was about News
:18:12. > :18:16.International, they had, according to detective, willfully obstructed
:18:16. > :18:19.the investigation and lied to police. If at any time News
:18:19. > :18:26.International had offered some meaningful co-operation instead of
:18:26. > :18:28.prevarcation and what we now know to be lies, we would not be here
:18:28. > :18:31.today. Former Deputy Assistant Commissioner, Peter Clarke, was in
:18:31. > :18:36.charge of the day-to-day running of the original investigation? I know
:18:36. > :18:40.it sounds a slightly banal point, that would you expect criminals to
:18:40. > :18:43.co-operate with the police, of course you don't, this is slight
:18:43. > :18:47.low different, I don't mean to be flipant here from someone taking
:18:47. > :18:52.the lead off the church roof, this is a global organisation with
:18:52. > :18:55.access to the best legal advice n my view deliberately trying to
:18:55. > :19:00.thwart a criminal investigation. Was there, MPs wanted to know a
:19:00. > :19:03.more sinister reason the investigation failed. Former
:19:03. > :19:08.Assistant Commissioner, David Haye was in overall charge at the time.
:19:08. > :19:13.During the investigation he was a dinner guest of...News
:19:13. > :19:16.International. You have made a judgment call to accept hospitality,
:19:16. > :19:21.from people who you are investigating for criminal offences,
:19:21. > :19:26.that is correct isn't it Yeah. why didn't he decide, you know, not
:19:26. > :19:33.to go to dinner? Not to have that dinner, I think, would have been
:19:33. > :19:39.potentially more suspicious than to have it. Suspicious? Well, I don't
:19:39. > :19:46.know why you're laughing...Just months after retiring as a
:19:46. > :19:52.policeman, Mr Hayman went to work for...News International? How vu
:19:53. > :20:00.any idea how this looks to the public.
:20:00. > :20:04.(inaudible) I take that on the chin. The atmosphere quickly went from
:20:04. > :20:07.incredulity to hostility. Did you ever receive payment from any news
:20:07. > :20:12.organisation? Gooden, absolutely not, I can't believe you suggested
:20:12. > :20:18.that. Lots of people did. Come on, hang on, I'm not letting you get
:20:18. > :20:22.away with that. At the conclusion of the first
:20:22. > :20:26.investigation, the News of the World's Academie Royale des Beaux-
:20:26. > :20:36.Arts editor, Clive Goodman, and the private investigator, Paul McMullan,
:20:36. > :20:41.
:20:41. > :20:45.pleaded guilty and were jailed. Everyone knew phone hacking went
:20:46. > :20:50.further than royalty, people in sport, entertainment and politics,
:20:50. > :20:55.the police had 11,000 pages of Paul McMullan's notebook, containing
:20:55. > :21:01.thousands of names. When more allegations of the scale of phone
:21:01. > :21:05.hacking came to light in 2009, the Met Commissioner ordered John Yates
:21:05. > :21:14.to look into. It he spent a few hours looking into it, concluding
:21:14. > :21:22.everything was fine. I consider no further investigation is required
:21:22. > :21:26.after further looking into it. Yates, still a senior serving Met
:21:26. > :21:32.officer admitted he got this one wrong. Had I known in July 2009
:21:32. > :21:35.what I now know, I would have made different decisions. I express
:21:35. > :21:39.clearly and publicly my impact on those affected as a result. Time
:21:39. > :21:44.and time again the committee wanted to know why, when Assistant
:21:44. > :21:47.Commissioner Yates said he looked at the evidence, didn't he actually
:21:47. > :21:51.look at the evidence? At the end of the session the chairman gave the
:21:51. > :21:55.officer this rebuke. I think your evidence today is unconvincing and
:21:55. > :22:02.there are more questions to be asked about what happened when you
:22:02. > :22:07.conducted this review. The final witness today was Deputy
:22:08. > :22:13.Assistant Commissioner sue Akers, she is now leading the
:22:13. > :22:18.investigation into all that evidence. She has confirmed there
:22:18. > :22:21.are 3,800 potential victims, she told the committee she intends to
:22:21. > :22:27.get answers. I'm confident we have an excellent team, who are working
:22:27. > :22:31.tirelessly to get this right. I hope that I don't have to come back
:22:31. > :22:38.here in five years time to explain why we have failed. That is a
:22:38. > :22:45.potential date to pencil in, by July 2016, we might just have got
:22:45. > :22:49.to the bottom of all of this. I'm joined now by Peter Neru, who
:22:49. > :22:52.was, until last year, the head of the national police improvement
:22:52. > :22:55.agency and before that spent four years as Chief Constable of Thames
:22:55. > :23:02.Valley Police. What was the worst moment in the testimony for you
:23:02. > :23:07.today? I think the worst moment was the incoherence of the decisions in
:23:07. > :23:10.the early stages. Let's take Andy Hayman, a very senior police
:23:10. > :23:15.officer, did you know he wanted to be a journalist? It was news to me.
:23:15. > :23:19.Were you impressed by his testimony? Not wholly. I think the
:23:19. > :23:22.big problem that came out there for Andy Hayman was the public
:23:23. > :23:27.perception around the job he had moved into, so shortly after
:23:28. > :23:30.leaving the force. What is the feeling within the force about how
:23:30. > :23:35.he behaved? I think there is a general feeling about colleagues
:23:35. > :23:39.who go and then decide to comment on colleagues, without objectivity.
:23:39. > :23:44.He suffers from that, I think. about the various excuse that is
:23:44. > :23:47.were given for the fact that 11,000 pages of evidence were not examined.
:23:47. > :23:52.While I can understand the argument about priorities, but the claim,
:23:52. > :23:55.for example, from Mr Yates, that it would have taken five or six
:23:55. > :23:59.officers, four or five months to go through it, is that plausible?
:23:59. > :24:03.feels a little bit long. How long would it have taken you? Go back
:24:03. > :24:08.into the evidence there were some important points made by Lord Blair
:24:08. > :24:11.at the beginning, and then by Peter Clarke, which was the coincidence
:24:11. > :24:14.of other events. I ran a large force, but nothing like the
:24:15. > :24:19.pressure of the type of events that they were dealing with. We all
:24:19. > :24:22.understand that the London bombings took priority over absolutely
:24:22. > :24:27.everything. But the allegation that it would take five or six officers
:24:27. > :24:32.four or five months, or four or five officers five or six months s
:24:32. > :24:36.that plausible? That feels a bit excessive. I would have spent
:24:36. > :24:40.someone to form a careful triage, it wouldn't have taken that long to
:24:40. > :24:45.work out the quantum you have. do we make of the suggestion that
:24:45. > :24:49.senior officers of him don't do binbags s there a level in the
:24:49. > :24:53.force where you don't investigate any more? I dealt with the
:24:53. > :24:56.investigation into the investigation of the death of Dr
:24:56. > :25:01.David Kelly, I didn't read all the material, but I satisfied myself on
:25:01. > :25:05.all the lines of inquiry. It is the line between there. You can't do it
:25:05. > :25:10.all, you are overseeing the whole of the inquiry. I do have some
:25:10. > :25:13.sympathy with that approach. wouldn't take long to skim and say
:25:14. > :25:20.this is worth investigating? would have expected a good summary
:25:20. > :25:24.of what was there. It took about eight hours is that long enough?
:25:24. > :25:27.it is 1,000 pages that feels short. I would have expected a good
:25:28. > :25:32.summary. What has this done to public confidence in the police?
:25:32. > :25:35.Not a lot. I think if you follow it through, and I can see the way that
:25:35. > :25:39.the evidence was set out f you follow it through on the basis of
:25:39. > :25:44.it was busy when they did it, they were focused on doing the royalty
:25:44. > :25:48.issues, the ones that were really staring them in the face, I'm
:25:48. > :25:55.troubled there wasn't a fresh attempt to look back at it. People
:25:55. > :25:59.were failed, there are 3,800 people whose phones were hacked, and most
:25:59. > :26:04.of them haven't the faintist idea, their numbers were there? The Met
:26:04. > :26:07.are admitting they dropped the ball. There was failure, conspicuous
:26:07. > :26:13.failure here? I wouldn't have been happy with that investigation,
:26:13. > :26:21.personally, no. Do you think people should be sacked for it? That's
:26:21. > :26:27.where I have trouble with what's going on with Labour MPs calling
:26:27. > :26:31.for John Yates to resign without a proper inquiry being conduct. That
:26:31. > :26:34.is premature, and I think John felt that was unfair at this stage. Not
:26:34. > :26:43.least of which he was one of a number of people with oversight of
:26:43. > :26:47.it, and he is a superb investigator. It was only months that the press
:26:47. > :26:50.was laweding him for the investigation into the payments for
:26:50. > :26:54.honours, that was a difficult political investigation.
:26:54. > :26:58.Tomorrow we will be having an invited audience live in the studio
:26:58. > :27:02.to see how the scandal has changed the way the rest of the country now
:27:02. > :27:05.sees the British press. We had to stop dithering, you can have
:27:05. > :27:10.blackouts or investment, which do you want, was the Energy
:27:10. > :27:14.Secretary's pitch today as he set out his plans for the electricity
:27:14. > :27:19.market. As anyone who has had to pay for an electricity bill
:27:19. > :27:24.recently, the cost is spiralling. If you were hoping for comfort,
:27:24. > :27:29.forget it, the Government's policy is for it to cost more. Demand will
:27:29. > :27:32.carry on rising, and the lights will start going out. More money
:27:32. > :27:38.for nuclear and carbon capture and renewable energy, which in turn
:27:38. > :27:43.means higher bills. The estimate is that we need �200
:27:43. > :27:47.billion more investment by 2020 for new renewable energy, power
:27:48. > :27:51.stations, including new nuclear power stations, and an updated grid.
:27:51. > :27:55.But for consumers it will mean higher bills, potentially hundreds
:27:55. > :28:01.of pounds a year higher. The Government says the increase in
:28:01. > :28:06.average bills will be limited to �160 a year by 2030, but that is on
:28:06. > :28:12.top of the rises that are already happening. Only last week the UK's
:28:12. > :28:17.biggest energy company, Centrica, put up its gas prices by 18% and
:28:17. > :28:24.its electricity prices by 16%. Scottish Power has also announced
:28:24. > :28:29.price increases of 19% for gas, and 10% for electricity. With us now is
:28:29. > :28:33.the Energy Secretary, Chris Huhne, don't you think people are paying
:28:33. > :28:38.enough for electricity? Yes I do. Why are we paying more? We don't
:28:38. > :28:40.want to pay more. The key thing is to insure ourselves against the
:28:40. > :28:45.volitility that we have seen on international oil and gas markets.
:28:45. > :28:50.We have Libya, we have a big 30% increase in world gas prices, that
:28:50. > :28:58.is what is hitting us. They will pay more, as a consequence of your
:28:58. > :29:03.policy they will pay more? No. will not? Ifth depends on if we go
:29:03. > :29:08.on reliant on gas markets, we will be buffeted. If we go own to low
:29:08. > :29:12.carbon sources, like renewables and nuclear, we will have much less
:29:12. > :29:16.impact on the domestic economy and prices. It is an insurance policy.
:29:16. > :29:21.People will pay more than they are now? It is inevitable, if we have
:29:21. > :29:29.more investment, we have to have replace a quarter of our capacity,
:29:29. > :29:34.tes inevitable to pay more. have just referred to nuclear. Your
:29:34. > :29:39.manifesto said last year you would reject new nuclear power station,
:29:39. > :29:43.saying it is a far more expensive way of producing power than
:29:43. > :29:47.promoting green energy? We are doing, by the way, conservation of
:29:47. > :29:52.energy, we are doing a lot of energy saving, it is a key part of
:29:52. > :29:58.the energy bill. But you are not reject Agnew generation of nuclear
:29:58. > :30:02.power station, you were - rejecting a new generation of nuclear power
:30:02. > :30:07.stations? We accepted it as a compromise. It is like tuition fee,
:30:07. > :30:11.you say one thing and do something else? We had to reach agreement on
:30:11. > :30:15.these issues to make sure we have a proper energy policy to get it into
:30:15. > :30:21.place. Is there anything in your next manifesto we should believe,
:30:21. > :30:27.on nuclear power you stood on your head and tu accident fees? The four
:30:27. > :30:31.- - and student fees? The four key things on our manifesto we stand on.
:30:31. > :30:37.Kindly tell us which ones to believe next time? You have to work
:30:37. > :30:41.out what will be the other party and what they will say. In tax
:30:41. > :30:45.fairness we have taken 1.1 million people out of tax in our manifesto.
:30:45. > :30:49.That was a key priority. Pupil premium that was a key priority for
:30:49. > :30:52.us. What you said before the election, it is extraordinary the
:30:52. > :30:56.leader, David Cameron, who wants to be Prime Minister, ememploys Andy
:30:57. > :31:01.Coulson. You were right there, weren't you? Well, the Prime
:31:01. > :31:07.Minister has clearly reached an accommodation on that issue, we
:31:07. > :31:11.know perfectly well what happened, Andy Coulson resigned. The News
:31:11. > :31:14.International inquiry continues and the police have started seriously
:31:14. > :31:18.inquiring into the activities. was bad judgment on the Prime
:31:18. > :31:23.Minister's part? It is up to the Prime Minister whom he employs as
:31:23. > :31:27.director of communications, it was clear what I said at the time.
:31:27. > :31:30.you support him? I warned Nick, it was clear at the time, Nick indeed
:31:30. > :31:33.warned the Prime Minister, it was very clear, as a result of that,
:31:33. > :31:37.this was a decision that the Prime Minister took on his own account.
:31:37. > :31:42.But you say that he was a man who was at best responsible for a
:31:42. > :31:45.newspaper that was out of control, and at worst was personally
:31:45. > :31:49.implicated in criminal activity. Do you admire the judgment of a leader
:31:49. > :31:53.who can make thater sort of decision to appoint someone like
:31:53. > :31:57.that? I think it is perfectly commendable to offer someone a
:31:57. > :32:01.second chance, but I standby the judgment I made about Andy Coulson,
:32:01. > :32:05.given what I knew at the time about what was going on at News
:32:05. > :32:08.International, and given what we have subsequently found out. Let's
:32:08. > :32:12.talk about Rupert Murdoch, do you think there is any role for him in
:32:12. > :32:16.the media in this country? There are increasing problems, the more
:32:16. > :32:20.we see with News International, the problems that were clearly there at
:32:20. > :32:23.the News of the World, seemed to be spreading to the Sun, maybe seen
:32:23. > :32:27.the Sunday Times, Gordon Brown's evidence today. The more this looks
:32:27. > :32:30.like an organisation that will be very hard to find a fit and proper
:32:30. > :32:35.organisation to be the major shareholder of a broadcasting
:32:35. > :32:41.organisation like BSkyB. You have had your own problems with the
:32:41. > :32:45.Sunday Times, you are a former journalist, do you not worry about
:32:45. > :32:48.the inhibition that will be placed upon proper free report anything
:32:48. > :32:52.this country if some of these restrictions get their way? There
:32:52. > :32:56.shouldn't be restrictions. We do need a clear means of increasing
:32:56. > :32:59.the standards of journalism, and of making sure there is a proper
:32:59. > :33:02.complaints procedure. That is what we don't have with the Press
:33:02. > :33:06.Complaints Commission. I think there is a long way to go. Making
:33:06. > :33:09.sure that people are held individually to account, making
:33:09. > :33:14.sure there is due prominence to corrections, making sure for
:33:14. > :33:18.example that newspapers have to pay fine, on a self-regulating basis,
:33:18. > :33:22.but I entirely agree, I don't think we should chill investigative
:33:23. > :33:26.efforts of newspapers, freedom of the press is absolutely essential.
:33:26. > :33:30.Guess what, there's another crisis or the makings of a crisis in the
:33:30. > :33:33.eurozone this time it is not one of the smaller economies like Greece
:33:33. > :33:38.or Ireland, although their bonds were downgrade today junk today. It
:33:38. > :33:43.is Italy, the third-biggest in the entire eurozone, the potential
:33:43. > :33:47.consequences if the Italians can't pay their enormous bills, are so
:33:47. > :33:53.serious, that today stock markets across Europe dropped for the third
:33:53. > :33:57.consecutive session. Our man with the cold eye is Paul Mason. What is
:33:57. > :34:03.up? Italy's problems started, because anything that looks like
:34:03. > :34:07.Greece, with Greece hovering on the point of default, gets investors
:34:07. > :34:13.worried. Italy is trying to put together an austerity package, some
:34:13. > :34:16.think it isn't that well designed, they are having it true to get it
:34:16. > :34:20.through. And Mr Beryl's Last Year chose this moment to ring up a
:34:20. > :34:25.national newspaper and say this about the Finance Minister, "you
:34:25. > :34:30.know he thinks he's a genius, and everyone else is stupid, I put up
:34:30. > :34:38.with him because I have known him so long ". To the bond markets this
:34:38. > :34:44.began to sound a little bit like Greece. Economists had thought it
:34:44. > :34:48.was Spain in the firing line next, when the Euro-took off in 2010 so,
:34:48. > :34:53.did Spain's borrowing, this is the graph showing what it cost Spain to
:34:53. > :34:58.borrow and Germany, Italy bubbled under, with Mr Berlussconi's
:34:58. > :35:02.intervention and continued indedecision in the eurozone, it
:35:02. > :35:06.has shot up close to Spanish levels, too high. That indecision continued
:35:06. > :35:10.today. Finance ministers from the eurozone broke up, yet again,
:35:10. > :35:14.without any concrete answers to the question, how much of Greece's debt
:35:14. > :35:18.should be written off, and who should lose money. By sitting on
:35:18. > :35:21.Greece and letting that fester, they have undermined investor
:35:21. > :35:25.confidence and it has seeped into other countries, particularly on
:35:25. > :35:30.the coast of Italy, Italy, if you like is the consequence of not
:35:30. > :35:34.dealing with Greece. Why should we worry about this? Italy's debt is
:35:34. > :35:40.120% of its GDP, the second-biggest debt in the eurozone. Unusually
:35:40. > :35:43.that is mainly owned by Italians, not the big foreign investor,
:35:43. > :35:46.Italian banks and people. It is the third biggest bond market in the
:35:46. > :35:50.world, after the Americans and Japanese, if it goes it goes big
:35:50. > :35:54.time. We can't bail it out. There is the politics. The Italian
:35:54. > :35:59.opposition told me today they are prepared, unlike Greece, to vote
:35:59. > :36:09.for the austerity, but their price will be national Government and
:36:09. > :36:13.goodbye to Berlussconi. As the opposition party we offered today
:36:13. > :36:19.to the majority the possibility to approve immediately, just in four
:36:19. > :36:26.days, the financial adjustment for 40 billion euros, the day after we
:36:26. > :36:33.say we want the resignation of the Government, and we want to have a
:36:33. > :36:38.new Government with a big majority, without Mr Berl sconey as leader.
:36:38. > :36:43.There are fresh reports of violence in Northern Ireland tonight. 20
:36:43. > :36:50.police officers were injured last night, as Protestant testants
:36:50. > :36:55.marched in celebration of King Billy's win at the Battle of the
:36:55. > :36:59.Boyne some 300 years ago. There is worries that there is a resurgence
:36:59. > :37:08.of paramilitary activity. Northern Ireland is at peace, what is going
:37:08. > :37:15.Everyone agrees they were the worst nights of rioting seen in Northern
:37:15. > :37:20.Ireland for many years. What caused this eruption of Protestant testant
:37:20. > :37:24.fury in east Belfast is hard Tory pin down.
:37:24. > :37:29.When it kicks off it is always the Catholics that start it, so it is.
:37:29. > :37:34.I don't know how it could be resolved, to be honest, there has
:37:34. > :37:38.been that much anger between Protestant testants and Catholics.
:37:38. > :37:43.(gun shots) The area that came under attack is a so-called
:37:43. > :37:48.interface, where long into the peace process, Catholic and
:37:48. > :37:53.Protestant testant homes still have to be separated by high walls. Just
:37:53. > :37:58.show me some of the photographs. On the loyalist side community workers
:37:58. > :38:06.use workers to assure me the violence came ol only after
:38:06. > :38:10.provocation from the Catholic Short Strand. Residents have collected in
:38:10. > :38:14.their gardens, bolts, rocks. They could hit you on the head. This all
:38:14. > :38:19.happened in the last few months? would say over the last six to
:38:19. > :38:23.seven months there has been a lot of attacks in the homes around the
:38:23. > :38:27.interface areas. But I'm told of another reason? There is so much
:38:27. > :38:32.hatred between the two communities, it is never going to end. Why not?
:38:33. > :38:38.It is just wait people are brought up. Retaliating, we will not stand
:38:38. > :38:41.and watch it. This youth took part in the riots, he wanted to remain
:38:41. > :38:45.anonymous? I don't know what happened, a lot of youngsters went
:38:45. > :38:51.down and helped out. That is what I call it, I call it helping out.
:38:52. > :38:56.What did you do to help out? Just throw a couple of missiles, bricks,
:38:56. > :38:59.bottles, anything you can get a hold of, throw them over. Does the
:38:59. > :39:05.peace process mean anything to you? I don't really understand all that
:39:05. > :39:08.peace process stuff, so I don't. It is not working, as you can see.
:39:08. > :39:13.These teenagers have a different outlook, at the even have Catholic
:39:13. > :39:17.friend, and yet they don't feel able to see them. I talk to them
:39:17. > :39:21.and stuff, I could text them, but I would never see them. It is just
:39:21. > :39:26.awkward, if someone sees you going down to the Strand or sees them
:39:26. > :39:29.coming out of the strand you will get done in. In what way? Like if
:39:29. > :39:33.somebody seen you walking down to the Strand and seeing you come out
:39:33. > :39:39.again, do you know what I mean, they will ask what are you doing
:39:39. > :39:42.going in there. They all feel progress is a long way off. I don't
:39:42. > :39:46.think anything will make a difference, to be honest, I think
:39:46. > :39:51.the problem has been there for that long it will always be there. Even
:39:51. > :39:55.if action was taken, I don't think it will make a difference.
:39:55. > :39:59.Jobs have become scarceer for the unionist working-classs that once
:39:59. > :40:09.manned the shipyards, there is a festering view that Catholics have
:40:09. > :40:10.
:40:10. > :40:15.left their loyalist neighbours in their wake. If you have ailation
:40:15. > :40:19.and demonisation of one section of the community, it breeds bitterness
:40:19. > :40:23.and violence. People will not invest, and it will be used by
:40:23. > :40:26.unscrupulous people and manipulated by them. You are found to have
:40:27. > :40:32.violence arising in the toxic sectarian atmosphere which is
:40:32. > :40:36.Northern Ireland. And members of the biggest loyalist paramilitary
:40:36. > :40:41.group, the UVF, are aused of exploiting it. Throughout the years
:40:41. > :40:45.of the troubles, the murals reflected what was going on in the
:40:45. > :40:50.estates, where the paramilitaries were concentrated. During the years
:40:50. > :40:53.of peace they got more community minded. In east Belfast
:40:53. > :40:57.commemorating the Titanic, built just a few streets away. But take a
:40:57. > :41:01.look at this money, repainted just a few weeks ago. It didn't reflect
:41:02. > :41:06.anything, it foretold the trouble we have seen on the streets. And
:41:06. > :41:13.the message from loyalism seems to be what was said about the IRA once,
:41:13. > :41:16.they haven't gone away, you know. And they don't seem interested in
:41:16. > :41:20.politics. Brian Irvine failed to get elected as the loyalist
:41:20. > :41:24.representative in the May elections. The main leadership of the UVF wish
:41:24. > :41:29.to move on, they wish to leave the stage. But there are elements
:41:29. > :41:34.within the UVF, I believe do not wish to do so. They have their own
:41:34. > :41:38.agenda, and their own reasons for that. The intentions of the UVF mr
:41:38. > :41:42.deeply, at a time when the Government says the threat to the
:41:42. > :41:44.mainland from Northern Ireland terrorism has increased. Whether or
:41:44. > :41:48.not loyalist paramilitaries orchestrated the street violence, a
:41:48. > :41:52.lot of them were there. I have been told for several months there has
:41:52. > :41:56.been concern about meetings between the most senior loyalist commanders,
:41:56. > :41:59.many of them based here on the Shankill, they have been meeting,
:41:59. > :42:06.not because of stones being thrown at Protestant testant homes, but
:42:06. > :42:13.because of on going violence by ex- IRA dissidents, many of them based
:42:13. > :42:17.here on the republican side, who don't support the peace process.
:42:17. > :42:20.Based in the Catholic Falls Road, Sinn Fein has led the republican
:42:20. > :42:26.community into Government with unionists. But some of their former
:42:26. > :42:33.supporters are feeling increasingly short changed. More than 30
:42:33. > :42:37.republicans are held at this jail, separated from ordinary prisoners,
:42:37. > :42:45.they are engaged in had a bitter dispute over their conditions. One
:42:45. > :42:48.of them, Colin ska Duffy, awaiting trial for murder of two offduty
:42:48. > :42:55.police officers, is one of those on dirty protests. We would want
:42:55. > :42:59.everybody to come out and support these prisoners, you don't have to
:42:59. > :43:06.support the arms struggle to support what is going on in here.
:43:06. > :43:09.They are not treated humanely. are humiliated, every time on a
:43:09. > :43:12.visit, they are constantly submitted to strip-searches.
:43:13. > :43:16.Prison Service says it is honouring an agreement to end the dispute,
:43:16. > :43:22.the relatives don't agree and say their campaign is gaining support
:43:22. > :43:27.among the wider republican community. It is a an emotive issue,
:43:27. > :43:32.the prisoners, it always has been. It has been highk jaed before for
:43:32. > :43:34.political gain. Family and friends there are people in the family and
:43:34. > :43:40.friends group would be affiliated to political organisation, but they
:43:40. > :43:44.will not try to capitalise on this at all politically. Are you saying
:43:44. > :43:48.they could? What cause violence on the streets? Exploit the situation.
:43:48. > :43:54.We could use the situation, the situation could be used as a way of
:43:54. > :43:57.gathering support for republicanism, never mind prisoner, getting the
:43:57. > :44:02.momentum going, that is not what this group is about, we don't want
:44:02. > :44:05.to use the situation, we want to resolve it. We are there to support
:44:05. > :44:09.the prisoners, to highlight what is going on within the jail, that is
:44:09. > :44:14.our only remit. The dispute is bringing the different republican
:44:14. > :44:18.factions together inside the prison. One of them has just been released
:44:18. > :44:23.on bail. They are unified in the position that is they want help
:44:23. > :44:27.with. They are now, in effect, unified in the way they are dealing
:44:27. > :44:32.with it. What happens and transpires on the outside I suppose
:44:32. > :44:37.is again for a matter for people's representative ones the outside.
:44:37. > :44:41.Republican society the core base are steadfastly behind the
:44:41. > :44:45.prisoners, it can do no harm. year's marching season, always a
:44:45. > :44:49.time of division, has been more tense than ever. These were
:44:49. > :44:59.Catholic youths rioting last night in west Belfast. 22 police officers
:44:59. > :45:02.
:45:02. > :45:07.were injured. High in the hole wod hills, overlooking east Belfast -
:45:07. > :45:12.Hollywood Hills, overlooking east Belfast, another world, the club of
:45:12. > :45:16.Rory McIlroy, the golfing superstar, is still basking in his US Open
:45:16. > :45:22.triumph. The junior membership is full, who cares it is pouring with
:45:22. > :45:27.rain. I think when he won it showed what Northern Ireland could produce,
:45:27. > :45:30.and not just producing fighting and rioting. Here everyone is peaceful
:45:30. > :45:33.and nice, having friendly conversations with everyone around,
:45:33. > :45:39.it just doesn't seem like that's happening. But we all know it is,
:45:39. > :45:43.we just hope it gets better. This gin win upset here that the agonies
:45:43. > :45:48.on the streets below are overshadowing a more progressive
:45:48. > :45:50.Northern Ireland. As the street violence reminds us, this year more
:45:50. > :45:55.forcefully than before, the peace process is leaving some people
:45:55. > :46:01.behind. I just want to show you one front
:46:01. > :46:11.page tomorrow, it is the Sun, which entirely rebuffs Gordon Brown's
:46:11. > :46:16.
:46:16. > :46:23.allegation that they got into some how the Paper got into his son's
:46:23. > :46:29.paper - medical records. They say they got it from another source. It
:46:29. > :46:33.is 100 years today since the planet Neptune was discovered, that is one
:46:34. > :46:39.Neptune year. We were going to end with pictures of the blue planet,