0:00:00 > 0:00:05The phone hacking scandal has sunk Rupert Murdoch's plans to take
0:00:05 > 0:00:11control of Britain's biggest pay TV broadcaster. What else has it done?
0:00:11 > 0:00:14To how we think about politician, about the press, about the police.
0:00:14 > 0:00:17This studio contains 27 people who voted for the three major parties
0:00:17 > 0:00:21at the last election, but each of whom is unclear who they will vote
0:00:21 > 0:00:26for next time. We are asking them to pass judgment tonight. I will be
0:00:26 > 0:00:29asking a cabinet minister how they could even have contemplated
0:00:29 > 0:00:33letting News Corp increase their role in the life of the nation. Our
0:00:33 > 0:00:37audience will get a chance to tell panel of MPs what they think of
0:00:37 > 0:00:47their leaders. And we have two keen political observers to assess the
0:00:47 > 0:00:52damage done to politics and to journalism.
0:00:52 > 0:00:54Good evening, it was another day of surprise, disbelief and anger, all
0:00:54 > 0:00:59major parties agreed Rupert Murdoch's organisation should not
0:00:59 > 0:01:04be able to take full control of Sky Television, and he backed off,
0:01:04 > 0:01:09withdrawing the bid. The task of the judicial inquiry into media
0:01:09 > 0:01:11practice was made public, and the ambition to have a thoughtful, non-
0:01:11 > 0:01:21partisan debate in parliament didn't last long. First Michael
0:01:21 > 0:01:26
0:01:26 > 0:01:31The horrors that parliament has endured in recent times, not least
0:01:31 > 0:01:36the scandal over MPs' expenses, this was a day the House of Commons
0:01:36 > 0:01:39asserted its authority. Uniting to defy one of the most powerful
0:01:39 > 0:01:44institutions in the world. Questions to the Prime Minister.
0:01:44 > 0:01:51Question Time showed how fast this story has moved. Having called Andy
0:01:51 > 0:01:55Coulson a friend last Friday, David Cameron today had a marketedly -
0:01:55 > 0:01:58markedly different tone. Of course I sought assurances and received
0:01:58 > 0:02:03assurances from Andy Coulson, those were assurances, not just given at
0:02:03 > 0:02:07the time to me, but also given subsequently to the select
0:02:07 > 0:02:11committee and to a criminal case under oath. So these were
0:02:11 > 0:02:14repeatedly given. Let me say again for the avoidance of any doubt, if
0:02:14 > 0:02:18she is assurances turn out not to be true, then it is not just that
0:02:18 > 0:02:22he shouldn't have worked in Government, it is that he should,
0:02:22 > 0:02:30like others, face the full force of the law.
0:02:30 > 0:02:33Next, Mr Cameron told MPs that Lord Justice Levison, no, not him, would
0:02:33 > 0:02:37chair his new judicial inquiry into phone hacking, the press, the
0:02:37 > 0:02:41police, politicians and much more besides. Clearly there are two
0:02:41 > 0:02:43pieces of work that have to be done here, first, we need fall
0:02:44 > 0:02:47investigation into wrongdoing in the press and the police, including
0:02:47 > 0:02:51the failure of the first politics investigation. Second, we need a
0:02:51 > 0:02:55review of regulation of the press. We would like to get on with both
0:02:55 > 0:02:57these elements as quickly as possible, while being mindful of
0:02:58 > 0:03:01the on going criminal investigations. After listening
0:03:01 > 0:03:04carefully, we have decided the best way to proceed is with one inquiry,
0:03:05 > 0:03:09but in two parts. The Prime Minister then returned to
0:03:09 > 0:03:13Downing Street to meet the family of the murdered schoolgirl, Milly
0:03:13 > 0:03:20Dowler. Perhaps the most shocking victims of the phone hacking
0:03:20 > 0:03:24scandal. As the Dowlers were telling the PM that News Corp's bid
0:03:24 > 0:03:30for BSkyB should be stopped, it suddenly was. News Corp has
0:03:30 > 0:03:35withdrawn its bid for BSkyB, that in the last couple of moments.
0:03:35 > 0:03:38news might have meant this afternoon's Commons debate on BSkyB
0:03:38 > 0:03:42turned into a damp squib, but then came a dramatic speech by Gordon
0:03:42 > 0:03:46Brown, only his second in the House since leaving Downing Street.
0:03:46 > 0:03:51Delivered with all guns blazing. Those at News International who
0:03:51 > 0:03:55took the freedom of the press as a license for abuse, who then
0:03:55 > 0:03:59cynically manipulated our support of that vital freedom, as their
0:03:59 > 0:04:06justification, and then callously used the defence of a free press as
0:04:06 > 0:04:12the banner under which they marched in step, I say, with members of the
0:04:12 > 0:04:18criminal underworld. It was this next su, this criminal media nexus,
0:04:18 > 0:04:22claiming to be on the side of the law-abiding citizen, but standing
0:04:22 > 0:04:26side-by-side with criminals against our citizens. As Tories taunted him
0:04:26 > 0:04:31about his failure in office to contain the Murdoch empire, Mr
0:04:31 > 0:04:36Brown said he too had tried to launch a judicial inquiry on phone
0:04:36 > 0:04:40hacking by News International. In an astonishing attack on his
0:04:40 > 0:04:45cabinet secretary, Sir Gus oh dol done national, still in office, he
0:04:45 > 0:04:54listed the reasons O'Donnell had given in a memo to block it. That
0:04:54 > 0:04:57while there were some facts, there was deliberate confusion by News
0:04:57 > 0:05:01International, the select committee didn't believe the practices were
0:05:01 > 0:05:05still continuing, and didn't meet the test of urgent public concern,
0:05:05 > 0:05:08that time had elapsed and evidence may have been destroyed, that the
0:05:08 > 0:05:12News of the World and individuals had already been punished in their
0:05:12 > 0:05:16resignations and jail terms, that there was no evidence of systemic
0:05:16 > 0:05:20failure in the police, and any way, all the decisions had been checked
0:05:20 > 0:05:22with the Crown Prosecution Service. That targeting the News of the
0:05:22 > 0:05:26World could be deemed to be politically motivated because it
0:05:26 > 0:05:30was too close to the general election and would inevitably raise
0:05:30 > 0:05:38questions over the motivation and urgency of an inquiry. Whereupon a
0:05:38 > 0:05:43Tory backbencher accused Brown of failing toe tackle illegal press
0:05:43 > 0:05:46activities against - failing to tackle illegal press activities
0:05:46 > 0:05:55against them. In conjunction with members of the then Government
0:05:55 > 0:05:59party in this House, conspired to smear Lord Ashcroft, and they...
0:05:59 > 0:06:07And they illegally ...members opposite, members opposite think
0:06:08 > 0:06:11there is one law for some, and one law for others. They illegally
0:06:11 > 0:06:15bagged bank accounts to try to undermine Her Majesty's opposition,
0:06:15 > 0:06:20he knew about it then, why was nothing done?
0:06:20 > 0:06:24Mr Speaker, I have to say to the House, I'm surprised that this
0:06:24 > 0:06:28debate, which started with our desire to protect the lives of
0:06:28 > 0:06:34innocent children, should end up with the Conservative Party more
0:06:34 > 0:06:38interested in defending Lord Ashcroft.
0:06:38 > 0:06:43Brown's speech was so partisan as to endanger the cross-party
0:06:43 > 0:06:46consensus, though the vote was unanimous. One of the remaining
0:06:46 > 0:06:49interesting questions tonight is whether Rupert Murdoch, James
0:06:49 > 0:06:53Murdoch and Rebekah Brooks, will respond to the invitation to come
0:06:53 > 0:06:57and answer questions before the Commons Culture Committee next
0:06:58 > 0:07:02Tuesday. Tonight the chairman of that committee, John Whittingdale,
0:07:02 > 0:07:11told MPs, if they don't respond soon, he may come to the House and
0:07:11 > 0:07:15take the unusual step of seeking powers to force them to do so. It
0:07:15 > 0:07:20was surely Rupert Murdoch's worst day in Britain, since arriving as a
0:07:20 > 0:07:25student 60 years ago, made worse by senators in Washington urging an
0:07:25 > 0:07:29inquiry there too, into whether his papers hacked into phones of the
0:07:29 > 0:07:32victims of the September 11th attacks. With us now, put up by the
0:07:32 > 0:07:36Government, not because he's Transport Secretary, but because
0:07:37 > 0:07:41there is nothing he likes more than batting on a sticky wicket, is
0:07:41 > 0:07:48Philip Hammond. Has your view about whether Rupert Murdoch should play
0:07:48 > 0:07:52a bigger role in the media life of this country changed in the last
0:07:52 > 0:07:59mortgage fight? - fortnight? Anybody who is associated with
0:07:59 > 0:08:02wrongdoing has no role to play. your view changed in the last
0:08:02 > 0:08:06fortnight? We have a policy of innocent until proven guilty. We
0:08:06 > 0:08:11have a police inquiry and now a judicial inquiry into what went
0:08:11 > 0:08:17wrong in the Murdoch empire and elsewhere in the media. I think
0:08:17 > 0:08:20when people can see all the facts they will form their own judgment.
0:08:20 > 0:08:24I'm asking if you formed your judgment, you haven't formed a
0:08:24 > 0:08:29judge that he is anything other than he was a fortnight ago?
0:08:29 > 0:08:33Clearly we have all started to form judgment, but I think it is wrong
0:08:33 > 0:08:37to publicly make statements before we have heard all the evidence, and
0:08:37 > 0:08:42before the police inquiry is completed, and the judicial inquiry
0:08:42 > 0:08:45is completed. Let's be frank about this, had the Guardian not
0:08:45 > 0:08:52disclosed that Milly Dowler's phone was hacked, there would have been
0:08:52 > 0:08:55none of this hoo-ha, would there? Quite right. And that hasn't
0:08:55 > 0:09:00changed your view of him? Clearly the fact that we have only
0:09:00 > 0:09:04uncovered what has been going on, if you like, by a happy accident,
0:09:04 > 0:09:08shows that there is something wrong with the way the press is regulated,
0:09:08 > 0:09:12the way the press is managed in this country, and that is one of
0:09:12 > 0:09:17the things that the inquiry has to look at. But it wasn't a happy
0:09:17 > 0:09:20accident that this was discovered? You could have found out at any
0:09:20 > 0:09:24time, the police could have found out at any time, but they didn't?
0:09:24 > 0:09:28Obviously there has been a police inquiry in the past that has failed
0:09:28 > 0:09:32and one of the things the inquiry will be looking at is why that
0:09:32 > 0:09:35police inquiry failed to get to the truth. As far as you are concerned
0:09:35 > 0:09:38you haven't changed your view of the Murdoch organisation. Let me
0:09:38 > 0:09:44ask you this, do you think broadly speaking Rupert Murdoch has been a
0:09:44 > 0:09:48force for good in this country? the basis of what we can see now,
0:09:48 > 0:09:52that looks rather doubtful. So you have changed your view? Jeremy, you
0:09:52 > 0:09:56don't know what my view was last week or last month. Your view would
0:09:56 > 0:10:00be that he should be given the benefit of the doubt? Everybody
0:10:00 > 0:10:03should be presumed innocent until proven guilty. There are some very
0:10:03 > 0:10:06serious accusations of wrongdoing around the Murdoch organisation,
0:10:06 > 0:10:11but what the inquiry want to look at, what the police investigation
0:10:11 > 0:10:17will want to look at is who knew what when. Did you make these
0:10:17 > 0:10:20anxieties of your's known to the rest of the cabinet? At what point.
0:10:20 > 0:10:24I was going to ask the next question, first of all did you, and
0:10:24 > 0:10:29when did you? I haven't actually discussed these issues in cabinet
0:10:29 > 0:10:34at all. We had a discussion yesterday about the situation that
0:10:34 > 0:10:37we find ourselves in, that the state of play. The Prime Minister
0:10:37 > 0:10:41outlined to the cabinet yesterday his proposals for an inquiry that
0:10:41 > 0:10:46he has set out to parliament today. That now has to go forward. We need
0:10:46 > 0:10:51to get to the bottom of what has happened, not just the specifics of
0:10:51 > 0:10:58this cautious but the much wider issues. We are sitting here this
0:10:58 > 0:11:01evening, talking about the ish uets this evening and people will want
0:11:01 > 0:11:04to - issues this evening and people will want to know whether the rot
0:11:04 > 0:11:09stops with the Murdoch organisation or has spread to the other parts of
0:11:09 > 0:11:14the British media. We hope the inquiry will discover that, the
0:11:14 > 0:11:17particular point about the News Corp element to all of this, is the
0:11:17 > 0:11:22BSkyB question. Supposing Murdoch mur comes back to you in say a year
0:11:22 > 0:11:26or - Rupert Murdoch comes back to you in a year or so's time and
0:11:26 > 0:11:29makes another bid for BSkyB, with the anxieties you clearly entertain
0:11:29 > 0:11:34about him, would he be a fit person or his organisation a fit
0:11:34 > 0:11:37organisation to take it over? year or two time we will have the
0:11:37 > 0:11:40benefit of a completed police investigation, and the inquiry that
0:11:40 > 0:11:43the Prime Minister has announced today. So we will all, the public
0:11:43 > 0:11:46and politicians, we will all know much more about the facts. We will
0:11:46 > 0:11:50be in a position to make that judgment. I hate to be boring, but
0:11:50 > 0:11:55the Government has to operate within the law, and under the
0:11:55 > 0:12:00present law, there are two tests that apply around ownership of
0:12:00 > 0:12:04media, one is the fit and proper test, which Ofcom is the guardian
0:12:04 > 0:12:07of, and the other is the plurality in the media test, which the
0:12:07 > 0:12:14Government is the guardian of, in the case of a proposal for a
0:12:14 > 0:12:20takeover or merger. So we just have to wait and see? Will Murdoch has
0:12:20 > 0:12:24withdrawn his bid. So the immediate problem has gone away. We will now
0:12:24 > 0:12:30find out, through a process of a police investigation, and a
0:12:30 > 0:12:33judicial inquiry, exactly what has happened. If at some point in the
0:12:33 > 0:12:37future, this is entirely hypothetical, if at some point in
0:12:37 > 0:12:41the future, Mr Murdoch were to return, and seek again to take over
0:12:41 > 0:12:45BSkyB, we would then able to respond with the benefit of the
0:12:45 > 0:12:51outcome of that inquiry in that police investigation, and possibly
0:12:51 > 0:12:54it may be the case that in the course of that process we come to
0:12:54 > 0:12:58the conclusion, we collectively come to the conclusion that we need
0:12:58 > 0:13:02to change the law that governs media ownership, and issues around
0:13:02 > 0:13:06concentration of power in the media. Several people this afternoon have
0:13:06 > 0:13:11been talking about this, and I think quite likely that will be one
0:13:11 > 0:13:16of the issues that comes out of this inquiry.
0:13:16 > 0:13:19Let's get some sense of how live an issue this is, it last electrified
0:13:19 > 0:13:25clearly the politicians of this country, and parliament believes
0:13:25 > 0:13:30that it was acting on behalf of worried citizens, when today, more
0:13:30 > 0:13:34or less, everybody in the House was on the same side on this issue. Are
0:13:34 > 0:13:39you, as a group of committed voters but undecided how you are going to
0:13:39 > 0:13:45vote next time. Are you electrified by it, are you worried by it?
0:13:45 > 0:13:48Anyone want to kick the ball off, yes, you sir? I think the general
0:13:48 > 0:13:52consensus from the general public is hacking has been going on a long,
0:13:52 > 0:13:56long time. Not just recently, and probably not just by the News of
0:13:56 > 0:14:01the World. In terms of being mortified by it, not really, it is
0:14:01 > 0:14:05something I expected,s - it is something I probably had my own
0:14:06 > 0:14:10conspiracy theories about it myself. I'm mortified by the fact they have
0:14:10 > 0:14:14been hacking soldiers' phones and Milly Dowler. You question whether
0:14:14 > 0:14:17those two cases hadn't come up whether we would be in the
0:14:17 > 0:14:23situation there now. Celebrities' phones have been hacked and nothing
0:14:23 > 0:14:28was done about it, is it only the recent hackings. Who sells worried
0:14:28 > 0:14:33about it? I'm concerned that - else is worried about it?
0:14:33 > 0:14:37concerned it appears to have resolved itself in a matter of
0:14:37 > 0:14:40minutes from being a universal of view of doing something about it,
0:14:40 > 0:14:45to becoming part of political squabble. David Cameron seemed to
0:14:45 > 0:14:49be in no doubt when he first spoke that there was a case to answer for
0:14:49 > 0:14:56Murdoch, before the inquiry, when he said it was incone receivable
0:14:56 > 0:15:00that he was a fit and proper person - inconceivable that he was a fit
0:15:00 > 0:15:04and proper person to take over BSkyB. Who else is worried about
0:15:04 > 0:15:14this relationship between the press, or certain elements of the press,
0:15:14 > 0:15:15
0:15:15 > 0:15:19and the way politics works in this country? The way that the
0:15:19 > 0:15:26politicians seem to have been completely craven. The closeness of
0:15:26 > 0:15:30the relationship, the paliness of it at times, the media Barons and
0:15:30 > 0:15:34their influence, all to be inquire into by the judge? It is a deeply
0:15:34 > 0:15:39unhealthy situation, it means the politicians don't seem to stand on
0:15:40 > 0:15:44principle, they stand, they never wanted to upset Murdoch and because
0:15:44 > 0:15:47he might be influential in telling the voters who they should vote for.
0:15:47 > 0:15:51Were you shock bid what you learned? We have known for a long
0:15:51 > 0:15:55time that there has been this very deep connection between the Murdoch
0:15:55 > 0:15:59empire, in particular, and politicians. And other empires too,
0:15:59 > 0:16:03probably? Yes, but he seems to be the stand out person, everybody
0:16:03 > 0:16:08talks about Murdoch and News Corp. And he is also, you know, News of
0:16:08 > 0:16:13the World is a very big paper. I think it is very unhealthy. I hope
0:16:13 > 0:16:16that it means that politicians...Does Anybody here
0:16:16 > 0:16:20read News of the World? headlines. You are prepared to
0:16:20 > 0:16:26admit for it, congratulations for your Hon estity? If I'm reading the
0:16:26 > 0:16:32papers on the Sunday, I get a nuets news and an ap observer, and then I
0:16:33 > 0:16:35read the news use - News of the World, and I read the News of the
0:16:35 > 0:16:38World and flick through the Observer. Where do you imagine
0:16:38 > 0:16:43where all the stories come from? never put that much thought into it.
0:16:43 > 0:16:47It seems like a load of nonsense. When I read papers like that it is
0:16:47 > 0:16:52with friends over Sunday lunch, it is more like reading out bits of
0:16:52 > 0:16:57nonsense, it is kind of like a comic. Aren't you partly culpable
0:16:57 > 0:17:01in this? Now, I suppose. Actually no, because I had no idea of that.
0:17:01 > 0:17:06I was very shocked by it. You are part of the appetite? But I didn't
0:17:06 > 0:17:13have any idea that type of thing was going on, do you know what I
0:17:13 > 0:17:18mean. I do realise that there is shoddy journalism, but I suppose I
0:17:18 > 0:17:20never really put that much thought into T I'm not sorry, I enjoyed
0:17:20 > 0:17:23reading the News of the World. Would you confess? I wouldn't
0:17:23 > 0:17:30confess to reading that newspaper, I wouldn't even mention the name.
0:17:30 > 0:17:34What I was going to say is that, in a way, we as the readership, have
0:17:34 > 0:17:39created that monster. It is we, not me myself, but other people, I
0:17:39 > 0:17:42never bought that newspaper, they went and bought the Sun, they went
0:17:42 > 0:17:48and bought the News of the World, and they created this monster, and
0:17:48 > 0:17:51all these politicians felt that they had to cosy up to him. So it
0:17:51 > 0:17:55is our fault as well as the politicians.
0:17:55 > 0:17:59You are not here as a spokesman for News of the World, you have a close
0:17:59 > 0:18:03relationship with the Times, I wonder if this public perception
0:18:03 > 0:18:06about the closeness of the relationship is actually, how does
0:18:06 > 0:18:13it seem from the other side of the fence where you are? I certainly
0:18:13 > 0:18:16think a bit like with MPs' expenses, there is a goch cha moment. People
0:18:16 > 0:18:21understand - gotcha moment, people understood something they didn't
0:18:21 > 0:18:25like was going on, they were leery about the tabloid press even when
0:18:25 > 0:18:29they enjoyed it. Now there are unsavoury things, which is a bit
0:18:29 > 0:18:34beyond people really understood was happening. I was completely
0:18:34 > 0:18:37astonished and appalled by the Milly Dowler example. But they did
0:18:37 > 0:18:41realise that something they didn't like was happening. I think that
0:18:41 > 0:18:45the element of surprise, there is an element of surprise about the
0:18:45 > 0:18:49individual acts, but not, I think, about the overall relationship or
0:18:49 > 0:18:53the way that tabloids operated. What's it like inside Wapping these
0:18:53 > 0:18:58days? I think everyone who works for the Times is very dismayed. We
0:18:58 > 0:19:02are dismayed as human beings, but we are also dismayed to be employed
0:19:02 > 0:19:08by people who were also employing people who did these things. You
0:19:08 > 0:19:15can't but be moved as a human being and also very angry about it. And
0:19:15 > 0:19:19worried about the consequences for the company as well. As far as your
0:19:19 > 0:19:23job is public opinion, are the public really exercised about this?
0:19:23 > 0:19:27I think it is important to keep it in perspective, yes it matters, of
0:19:27 > 0:19:31course it matters, but actually, a lot of other things matter a lot
0:19:31 > 0:19:35more to people. I was doing focus groups last week, this wasn't even
0:19:35 > 0:19:39mentioned. When I prompted them, they talked about it a little bit
0:19:39 > 0:19:42and then they moved on to the things that really did matter, like
0:19:43 > 0:19:46their jobs. I'm shower everybody in this studio is more concerned about
0:19:46 > 0:19:50their own family finances than they are about Murdoch's family finances,
0:19:50 > 0:19:54really. That's how people make their political decisions in the
0:19:54 > 0:19:59end, is on the things that affect them, it is not so surprising.
0:19:59 > 0:20:03you looked into people's attitudes to the relationship between what
0:20:03 > 0:20:07they read as we have very frankly confessed to over there in a
0:20:07 > 0:20:11tabloid newspaper, and what's gone on to get that story and what it
0:20:11 > 0:20:15does generally to the relationship between the citizen and the
0:20:15 > 0:20:18powerful. I think as this lady suggested, actually, people don't
0:20:18 > 0:20:23scrutinise that carefully, they don't think that hard about where
0:20:23 > 0:20:26the story came from. But I agree with Danny, I'm not sure there
0:20:26 > 0:20:29would be that many surprised. Also people would be not that surprised
0:20:29 > 0:20:32about what has been revealed about the proximity about the
0:20:32 > 0:20:37relationship of some politicians and the media as well. I think
0:20:37 > 0:20:41people would say, yep, that's just what we thought. Is that healthy?
0:20:41 > 0:20:45don't think it is, no. What do you think? They would think it wasn't.
0:20:45 > 0:20:49Do you think it is healthy? relationship, actually I think that
0:20:49 > 0:20:52a huge amount is put into the idea that because some people have
0:20:52 > 0:20:56cocktail parties together it influences what the newspapers say.
0:20:56 > 0:21:00In the end I think the newspapers are trying to please their readers,
0:21:00 > 0:21:05and they are trying to respond to their readers' instincts. For
0:21:05 > 0:21:08example, I think if there wasn't a Murdoch-owned press in this country,
0:21:08 > 0:21:12it doesn't mean there wouldn't be lots of newspapers that took a
0:21:12 > 0:21:15tough line on crime and were Euro- sceptic, because they are chasing
0:21:15 > 0:21:18readers and that is what readers think. I think actually the
0:21:18 > 0:21:23relationship between politicians and the press isn't as important an
0:21:24 > 0:21:28issue as stated. What I'm most concerned about, any journalists
0:21:28 > 0:21:34would be, is press methods, making sure the press methods are not
0:21:34 > 0:21:38allowed to exist and as much light is cast on them, and as much done
0:21:38 > 0:21:42about possible. I know you have to go, do you want parting shot on the
0:21:42 > 0:21:46relationship, the closeness between media Barons, it has always gone on,
0:21:46 > 0:21:51between media barons and the political people in this country?
0:21:51 > 0:21:55It has always gone on, and possibly I think the perception is that it
0:21:55 > 0:21:58is intensified over the last couple of decades and clearly now this
0:21:58 > 0:22:03inquiry is going to lay bear what has been going on, and the
0:22:03 > 0:22:07closeness of that relationship, and I think people will feel a lot more
0:22:07 > 0:22:11comfortable if we lance that boil, and the public are able to feel
0:22:11 > 0:22:16confident that there is just that bit more distance between the media
0:22:16 > 0:22:20organisations, and the politicians. Let's be honest, the culture that
0:22:20 > 0:22:25was established over the last 15 or so years, was one, and certainly
0:22:25 > 0:22:29this is the way people in Westminster have thought about it,
0:22:29 > 0:22:32that the question is, is it possible to get elected without the
0:22:32 > 0:22:37support of the Murdoch press? And certainly it has been common wisdom
0:22:37 > 0:22:39in Westminster that you need the support of the Murdoch press to be
0:22:39 > 0:22:43successful in politics, that is pretty dangerous. Is that true or
0:22:43 > 0:22:47is it a myth? I think it is a complete myth. I think that Neil
0:22:47 > 0:22:51Kinnock, for example, lost in 1992, because people didn't want him to
0:22:51 > 0:22:56be Prime Minister. The reason that Tony Blair moved towards the murd
0:22:56 > 0:23:02mur press is because he could - the Murdoch press, is because he could
0:23:02 > 0:23:08see the Sun was saying things he wanted Labour to be connected with.
0:23:08 > 0:23:12Tony Blair wrote a personal letter to Stuart Higgins praising him for
0:23:12 > 0:23:14the Sun's magnificent contribution? If anyone thinks at the end of this
0:23:15 > 0:23:19people won't want to have good personal relationships with the
0:23:19 > 0:23:23people writing about them, then I think they are being naive. I don't
0:23:23 > 0:23:26expect anyone thinks that will happen. If anyone thinks Tony Blair
0:23:26 > 0:23:28will stop sending thank you letters to people they are not
0:23:28 > 0:23:33understanding it. Politicians of all parties have
0:23:33 > 0:23:36seen this scandal as an opportunity for parliament to reassert itself,
0:23:36 > 0:23:40by giving voice to widespread revulsion felt by the public. The
0:23:40 > 0:23:46other institution being tarnished is the police, who not only failed
0:23:46 > 0:23:49to mount proper investigations of alleged wrongdoing, but made two,
0:23:49 > 0:23:55including in their ranks, officer who took money from News
0:23:55 > 0:23:59International. While a police officer, did you
0:23:59 > 0:24:05ever receive payment from any news organisation? Gooden, absolutely
0:24:05 > 0:24:10not. I can't believe you suggested that. Had I known in July 2009,
0:24:10 > 0:24:16what I now know, I would have made different decision, and I expressed
0:24:16 > 0:24:19clearly and publicly, my regrets. Your evidence today is unconvincing,
0:24:19 > 0:24:28and there are more questions to be asked about what happened when you
0:24:28 > 0:24:32conducted this review. Right now who has been surprised,
0:24:32 > 0:24:38shocked, appalled, maybe not surprised, by what we have learned
0:24:38 > 0:24:44in the last few days about how the police failed to investigate these
0:24:44 > 0:24:51allegations, and the accusations of policemen taking money.
0:24:51 > 0:24:59Has anyone got a view on that. I have to say, I was very shocked,
0:24:59 > 0:25:04yeah, and surprised as well, by the police and the collusion, and about
0:25:04 > 0:25:08the alleged bribe taking as well, I was very shocked. You just didn't
0:25:09 > 0:25:14imagine it? I didn't think it was possible. I just didn't think it
0:25:14 > 0:25:22was possible for the police to allegedly take bribes from the
0:25:22 > 0:25:26press, I was very shocked. Anyone else share that view? I was
0:25:26 > 0:25:33shocked but I was more shocked by the failure of the first
0:25:33 > 0:25:39investigation. Because the amount of evidence they had at their
0:25:39 > 0:25:43disposal, and the way that seemed to be dropped. Again these are
0:25:43 > 0:25:47allegations and this may be proved in the future what has really
0:25:47 > 0:25:55happened. It is incontravertable that they had the evidence and they
0:25:55 > 0:26:01failed to act upon it. We have never had an answer to that. These
0:26:01 > 0:26:07were very senior policemen indeed testifying yesterday, upon whose
0:26:07 > 0:26:11shoulders rest our security, from perhaps terrorist attacks, did that
0:26:11 > 0:26:16surprise you? Yeah, it did surprise me, it is easy to be cynical about
0:26:16 > 0:26:21it, the police I suppose is a microcosim of all sorts of people,
0:26:21 > 0:26:24and sooner or later there is going to be a few bent ones, and I'm more
0:26:24 > 0:26:29interested in weedling the ones out so we can look at the police force
0:26:29 > 0:26:35and try not to lose faith with it entirely, and have a blinkered view
0:26:35 > 0:26:42of them as all corrupt. Because they are obviously not. Anyone else
0:26:42 > 0:26:48got a view on that? I think the inquiry that was uncovering all the
0:26:48 > 0:26:57evidence was blunted to begin with. I think that was the big shame of
0:26:57 > 0:27:01it, because it was only sort of set to do a certain job, and it wasn't
0:27:01 > 0:27:07set to protect the public from phone hacking and all the things
0:27:07 > 0:27:14that we have had come out since then. I think that when an inquiry
0:27:14 > 0:27:19is set up it should have a more broader scope so that it can do
0:27:19 > 0:27:23what it is supposed to do, which is protect us. Let's move on to the
0:27:23 > 0:27:29party leaders now, the party leaders who were happy enough, only
0:27:29 > 0:27:35a couple of weeks or so ago to take Rupert Murdoch's hospitality, are
0:27:35 > 0:27:39now competing with each other about the most robust of defying them. We
0:27:39 > 0:27:46thought about getting a focus group before the scandal blew up, by
0:27:46 > 0:27:50common consent it has changed what people think of the party leaders.
0:27:51 > 0:27:55Rupert Murdoch is now in town in London seeking to sort things out.
0:27:55 > 0:28:00I would simply say to him, look how people feel about this. Look how
0:28:00 > 0:28:04the country has reacted with revulsion to the revelations. So do
0:28:05 > 0:28:08the decent and sensible thing, and reconsider. As Prime Minister,
0:28:08 > 0:28:12people want to know, are you going to sort this issue out, inquiries
0:28:12 > 0:28:16to get to the truth, a proper police investigation, no cover-up
0:28:16 > 0:28:20of what might have happened in previous police investigations, and
0:28:20 > 0:28:24yes, some frankness about what the politicians got wrong themselves.
0:28:24 > 0:28:28He hasn't shown the leadership necessary on BSkyB, and he hasn't
0:28:28 > 0:28:32shown the leadership necessary on News International, isn't it the
0:28:32 > 0:28:38case if the public is to have confidence in him he has to calm
0:28:38 > 0:28:42the thing most difficult, he has to accept he made a catastrophic error
0:28:42 > 0:28:52of judgment by bringing Andy Coulson into the heart of his
0:28:52 > 0:28:53
0:28:53 > 0:28:58Downing Street machine. Who thinks a particular party
0:28:58 > 0:29:06leader had his finger on the pulse this week? No-one was impressed by
0:29:06 > 0:29:10anybody. Who was unimpressed by somebody? They all had their
0:29:10 > 0:29:14fingers on the pulse in identifying something that was universally felt,
0:29:14 > 0:29:18and reacted to it in different ways. I thought the only leader who has
0:29:18 > 0:29:21actually come out of it with an advantage has been Ed Miliband,
0:29:21 > 0:29:28because he has been able to take the initiative for the first time
0:29:29 > 0:29:32in about a year. It is striking, Danny when you look at three weeks
0:29:32 > 0:29:35ago, and when you look at what people are saying about Ed Miliband,
0:29:35 > 0:29:40and you compare what they are saying now. This has been something
0:29:41 > 0:29:44on which he has made a lot of progress in leadership terms?
0:29:44 > 0:29:50very interesting, I'm genuinely interested as if that is a view
0:29:50 > 0:29:55outside the Westminster village. know t the polling tells us it is.
0:29:55 > 0:30:01Who thinks Ed Miliband has had, made progress in the last week or
0:30:01 > 0:30:05so? Who cares about who the leader is, they change them very frequent,
0:30:05 > 0:30:09and it makes no difference who the leader is. The leader is sitting on
0:30:09 > 0:30:13the back of a tiger, he has no control.
0:30:13 > 0:30:18Was anyone impressed by the way David Cameron dealt with this?
0:30:18 > 0:30:21I come back on the Miliband point. You might as well, nobody else
0:30:21 > 0:30:25wants to speak. You are having to push the boulder heavily to get any
0:30:25 > 0:30:30response at all on that. That's because I just don't think that how
0:30:30 > 0:30:35the leaders reacted on this will be a determining factor, even next
0:30:35 > 0:30:39week. It is very, very important for journalists and everyone is
0:30:39 > 0:30:42shocked by the revelation, but whether they think this is really
0:30:42 > 0:30:47about the press or particular politician, I do doubt that. I know
0:30:47 > 0:30:51that people inside politics have taken this very strong view that it
0:30:51 > 0:30:56has been transformative for Ed Miliband. I wonder if that is true.
0:30:56 > 0:30:59You are quite right the Westminster village is agog and the rest of the
0:30:59 > 0:31:06world isn't, the audience are barring that out. It is fact that
0:31:06 > 0:31:09Ed Miliband's ratings have improved. Some have. He has been impressive
0:31:09 > 0:31:13on it, it isn't a judgment about him, it is jaument about how
0:31:13 > 0:31:16important people think that is. This isn't an issue that matters
0:31:16 > 0:31:20much in people's lives, they want to see Ed Miliband making progress
0:31:20 > 0:31:30on things that do matter to them, I guess.
0:31:30 > 0:31:30
0:31:30 > 0:31:33We can talk now to our panel of MPs, Louis Minch from the Conservatives,
0:31:34 > 0:31:38Tessa Jowell from Labour, and Simon Hughes from the Liberal Democrats.
0:31:38 > 0:31:43We heard Gordon Brown say today he was desperate to mount the sort of
0:31:43 > 0:31:49investigation David Cameron is now going to mount into how the press
0:31:49 > 0:31:53act, did you obstruct him, how can Cameron do it and Brown couldn't?
0:31:53 > 0:31:57think the way Gordon delivered his extremely powerful speech was also
0:31:57 > 0:32:00very heavily affected by the personal hurt that he felt about
0:32:00 > 0:32:05the revelation about his own children. That has nothing to do
0:32:05 > 0:32:09with why he couldn't mount an investigation? He was very close to
0:32:09 > 0:32:16the election. When you are close to an election, it is right that this
0:32:16 > 0:32:20is the case, what even prime ministers can do is very limited by
0:32:20 > 0:32:24the proximity of the election and not getting unfair political
0:32:24 > 0:32:31advantage simply because you are in Government. So I listened quite
0:32:31 > 0:32:34carefully, I hadn't seen the advice that Gus O'Donnell gave him, but I
0:32:34 > 0:32:37listened very carefully to what Gordon Brown gave, and it was
0:32:37 > 0:32:46cautious advice, informed much more about the proximity of the election.
0:32:46 > 0:32:51But I think, I just wanted to say this, I'm very struck by just how
0:32:51 > 0:32:55somber everybody feels about this. It very much reflects with a
0:32:55 > 0:32:59discussion that I have had with people that I represent in my own
0:32:59 > 0:33:06constituency, that it is a whole lot of things coming together, a
0:33:07 > 0:33:09collapse of confidence in the media. People feeling pretty shocked about
0:33:09 > 0:33:13what appears to have been the behaviour of the police, the
0:33:13 > 0:33:16banking crisis and so forth. But increasingly what people feel is
0:33:16 > 0:33:22they just have to look after themselves, and their families so,
0:33:22 > 0:33:26the people they rely on, rather than these institutions, that are
0:33:26 > 0:33:31intended to protect. I think that Ed Miliband has actually understood
0:33:31 > 0:33:38how people feel, and I think that what is really powerful about what
0:33:38 > 0:33:42he has done is to lead...Is to lead the argument. This is very much
0:33:42 > 0:33:46going on. You haven't interrupted me yet. I was wondering where you
0:33:46 > 0:33:50were going next! To lead the argument which is above party
0:33:50 > 0:33:54politics. That is a fair point to let someone else have a shout. It
0:33:54 > 0:33:58raises the question why your leader has been so off the pace on this?
0:33:58 > 0:34:04He is the person announcing the judicial inquiry. If we look at the
0:34:04 > 0:34:08relationship. All the running has been made by Miliband bapd - Ed
0:34:08 > 0:34:12Miliband and Nick Clegg? It was the Prime Minister, I don't agree, we
0:34:12 > 0:34:15have a judicial inquiry, one that Labour couldn't do. It was close to
0:34:15 > 0:34:18the election, so why wasn't it announced before the election. Why
0:34:18 > 0:34:22wait until before the last minute when News International withdrew
0:34:22 > 0:34:25their support to say they would like an inquiry. David Cameron has
0:34:25 > 0:34:28announced a package of measures that will begin to restore some
0:34:28 > 0:34:32confidence and it will be a long time before it is fully restored.
0:34:32 > 0:34:35One of the most important is that from now on, whenever a politician,
0:34:35 > 0:34:40a senior Government official and minister has a meeting with a
0:34:40 > 0:34:44member of the press, they will have to log that, so no more secret
0:34:44 > 0:34:49meetings, cosy chats, everything open and above board, that is a
0:34:49 > 0:34:52reform that is long overdue, when people know when their politicians
0:34:53 > 0:34:57are meeting the press they will feel more confident. Simon Hughes,
0:34:58 > 0:35:01your leader in all of this, he hasn't been very visible, has he?
0:35:01 > 0:35:04He is the deputy Prime Minister, not the Prime Minister, he has been
0:35:04 > 0:35:08clear, I will be very partisan about this. We have said for 17
0:35:08 > 0:35:12years as a party that Murdoch had too much power and influence, we
0:35:12 > 0:35:16have sought tole change Labour to get them to change the Competition
0:35:16 > 0:35:20Act which, they refused to do, to deal with newspaper pricing, two
0:35:21 > 0:35:24years before the election we called for a judicial inquiry. Ever since
0:35:25 > 0:35:30the Culture Committee in 2003 said this was widespread, they asked for
0:35:30 > 0:35:36action, when the information commissioner said there were 305
0:35:36 > 0:35:38journalists, a whole list of titles, 35 different paper, 300-odd
0:35:38 > 0:35:43journalists involved and recommended action, Labour did
0:35:43 > 0:35:47nothing. We asked them to, nothing happened. There was no judicial
0:35:47 > 0:35:51inquiry. Before the election, Nick, with colleagues called for a
0:35:51 > 0:35:55judicial inquiry, and said Murdoch was too powerful, and risked being
0:35:55 > 0:35:57attacked by Murdoch and given a hard time by the Murdoch press as a
0:35:58 > 0:36:02result. We have always had that position, we have never cosied up
0:36:02 > 0:36:07to them and Nick was clear from last weekend that the Murdochs
0:36:07 > 0:36:10should take the bid away and said so. They didn't cosy up to them and
0:36:10 > 0:36:13they didn't bother to cosy up to you because you were so irrelevant,
0:36:13 > 0:36:16that is the truth of the Liberal Democrats? The reality is, of
0:36:16 > 0:36:22course they were seeking to be close to the people in power, but
0:36:22 > 0:36:26Blair did not have to fly in to Australia in 1995, he didn't have
0:36:26 > 0:36:30to phone Murdoch three times before the Iraq war happened. That was far
0:36:30 > 0:36:33more than normal behaviour. mentioned the fear of the Murdoch
0:36:33 > 0:36:36press, have you ever been personally threatened, any of you
0:36:36 > 0:36:40by the Murdoch press, they will write something about you? You know
0:36:40 > 0:36:45that I have, that is the answer, my private life was on the front page
0:36:45 > 0:36:51of the newspapers. I gave evidence to the police in 2006, which led to
0:36:51 > 0:36:54the conviction of the two guys who were imprisoned. I decided there
0:36:54 > 0:36:57was no reason in hiding and come out. As a result of that, other
0:36:57 > 0:37:01people who did the same, very few people gave evidence, still nothing
0:37:01 > 0:37:04happened, it was widely known, I think the gentleman over there said,
0:37:04 > 0:37:08it was widely known there was widespread abuse and nothing under
0:37:08 > 0:37:12Labour happened, because they were too close. You are on the culture,
0:37:12 > 0:37:17media and sport select committee, you have said you want to hear from
0:37:17 > 0:37:24Rupert Murdoch and his Lieutenants next week, will they appear before
0:37:24 > 0:37:29you? Rupert and James Murdoch and Rebekah Brooks have been summoned
0:37:29 > 0:37:33to ask questions that the previous committee was misled on, it is a
0:37:33 > 0:37:37huge opportunity they should take. They have said they will co-operate,
0:37:37 > 0:37:42and they have told us they will let us know if they will come. If they
0:37:42 > 0:37:44don't we have powers over British sit certain, over Mrs Brooks.
0:37:45 > 0:37:48Rupert and James Murdoch are American citizens and we have no
0:37:48 > 0:37:54power over them. It would surprise everyone if they had the guts to
0:37:54 > 0:37:57show up t would show a little bit of leadership, and with be the
0:37:57 > 0:38:02first step in lancing this giant boil, and I would encourage them to
0:38:02 > 0:38:08come and show up and answer questions. There is no way you can
0:38:08 > 0:38:12make them? No, we can make Mrs Brooks. We can say to Rupert
0:38:12 > 0:38:17Murdoch he's running a global organisation, if he wants to lance
0:38:17 > 0:38:20the boil he can show up and surprise everyone in front of the
0:38:20 > 0:38:30select committee on Tuesday and win back a bit of respect, I would urge
0:38:30 > 0:38:34him to do it. Other newspaper proprietyors should be summoned -
0:38:34 > 0:38:39proprietors should be summoned before the committee too? They
0:38:39 > 0:38:42should, the inquiry has to establish the extent of wrongdoing
0:38:42 > 0:38:47beyond allegation, in News International, but also look at
0:38:47 > 0:38:50practices in other papers. Simon is absolutely right, start by going
0:38:50 > 0:38:55back to the Information Commissioner's report, which I
0:38:55 > 0:38:59don't think as a Government we took seriously enough. If I may say, you
0:38:59 > 0:39:02asked if we had been threatened by News International, I have been
0:39:02 > 0:39:06personally threatened by the Mail, I think it is important the British
0:39:06 > 0:39:09public out there realised, while News International has a lot of
0:39:09 > 0:39:13questions to answer, they are by no means the only media organisation
0:39:13 > 0:39:17that is involved in hacking, I want to hear from Trinity Mirror, I want
0:39:17 > 0:39:20to hear from Associated Newspaper, and everybody out there should
0:39:20 > 0:39:24understand it is a tabloid problem for the press, the whole of the
0:39:24 > 0:39:28press, and not merely the Murdoch papers. You were threatened with
0:39:28 > 0:39:33something to do with your private life? I was threatened with
0:39:33 > 0:39:39something to do with my private life, I do not care, I was
0:39:39 > 0:39:43threatened by a journalist on the Mail, when I spiked her exclusive
0:39:43 > 0:39:48on my divorce which she obtained by deception. I can say this goes on
0:39:48 > 0:39:52throughout the press and by no means limited to the News of the
0:39:52 > 0:39:56World and the News International stable. Can I say one thing, my
0:39:56 > 0:39:59concern was always, when I was affected, it wasn't people like us,
0:39:59 > 0:40:02who can stand up for ourselves, it was the families, friends and
0:40:02 > 0:40:07constituents and other people, I know that actually it was friends
0:40:07 > 0:40:10and family of mine who were far more affected adversary than I was
0:40:11 > 0:40:14by the interference on my phone, that is why the revelations of the
0:40:14 > 0:40:17last two weeks it is about people like these, not people like us.
0:40:18 > 0:40:23fortnight is a very long time in politics. What has happened this
0:40:23 > 0:40:27week and last came out of the blue, and no-one knows where it will end.
0:40:27 > 0:40:35Let's remind ourselves of how the main party leaders had been faring
0:40:35 > 0:40:43before the whole affair began. What happened on Bloody Sunday was
0:40:44 > 0:40:48both unjustified and unjustifyable. It was wrong.
0:40:48 > 0:40:53I think I have been saying throughout this contest you
0:40:53 > 0:40:59shouldn't trust the bookies. declare Ed Miliband the winner and
0:40:59 > 0:41:02the leader of the Labour Party. not going to apologise for creating
0:41:03 > 0:41:09a system, which I think, over the years, will be shown to be a much
0:41:09 > 0:41:13fairer one than the one we have inherited.
0:41:13 > 0:41:23There is not a right to go on the streets of London want to go pursue
0:41:23 > 0:41:26
0:41:26 > 0:41:30It is a chance to have a better politics in Britain. It is a chance
0:41:30 > 0:41:40to choose hope over fear. It is a chance to choose change over the
0:41:40 > 0:41:41
0:41:41 > 0:41:51status quo. Why is it that we're all told to walk around like
0:41:51 > 0:41:51
0:41:51 > 0:42:01this...Squeeze Wages, squeezed aspirations and squeezed prospects.
0:42:01 > 0:42:03
0:42:03 > 0:42:07Danny Finkelstein, how much has this last fortnight changed the
0:42:07 > 0:42:11position of the party leaders? ultimately think that events like
0:42:11 > 0:42:15this, they fade quite quickly, and so, I don't think we should look at
0:42:15 > 0:42:18the events, we should try to look at the trend over a long period of
0:42:18 > 0:42:21time. The thing that is really going to be a big problem for David
0:42:21 > 0:42:27Cameron is going to be the economy, is going to be whether he seems to
0:42:27 > 0:42:32be leading strongly on the economy, and for Ed Miliband, despite having
0:42:32 > 0:42:35a good week in Westminster terms, I don't think that is going to change
0:42:35 > 0:42:40fundamentally his problem, which is trying to move the Labour Party so
0:42:40 > 0:42:44that it can be seen as a governing force again when so many people
0:42:44 > 0:42:49have got guess - questions about him, we have to avoid thinking the
0:42:49 > 0:42:51last couple of weeks that have been undoubt thely challenging and in
0:42:51 > 0:42:54political terms exciting, should fundamentally change the outlook.
0:42:55 > 0:42:58Do you think they will make a difference? It is a bit early to
0:42:58 > 0:43:02change. For Ed Miliband I feel he has found a voice this week and
0:43:02 > 0:43:06made a connection with the public that he hadn't made before,
0:43:06 > 0:43:11although around facing a common enemy. I think potentially the
0:43:11 > 0:43:17bigger worry actually is for David Cameron, I think that what people
0:43:17 > 0:43:23may fear with him, which is that he's a Tory reverting to form, and
0:43:23 > 0:43:27standing up for his well-to-do friend. He has looked uncomfortable
0:43:27 > 0:43:31this week, he has looked on the back foot. He doesn't seem, I think,
0:43:31 > 0:43:36to have shown the same leadership. I think he would be lucky if this
0:43:36 > 0:43:41is his big problem. The big problem is inflation, large amount of
0:43:41 > 0:43:45unemployment, people facing an income squeeze, tuition fees, those
0:43:45 > 0:43:47are the problems. It is about whether people trust him to sort
0:43:48 > 0:43:51those problems out in their interest. What they might have seen
0:43:51 > 0:43:55this week is a Prime Minister, they might be worrying is this a Prime
0:43:55 > 0:43:59Minister more concerned about rich people than people like me. That is
0:43:59 > 0:44:02the problem that is one of the reasons. Seeing him going riding
0:44:02 > 0:44:06with Rebekah Brooks. That is one of the reasons why the Tories didn't
0:44:06 > 0:44:09win a majority people fear that about the Tory Party. That is his
0:44:09 > 0:44:12weakness. The importance he has to the Tory Party is that he seems to
0:44:12 > 0:44:15be a little bit different, if he loses that it is serious for the
0:44:15 > 0:44:18Tories. I just don't think this week, this issue will be the issue.
0:44:18 > 0:44:22This is an issue about the press, it is not really about him. There
0:44:22 > 0:44:28will be an issue of judgment about Andy Coulson, that might feed
0:44:28 > 0:44:32through. Again, how many people are really that knowledgeable but who
0:44:32 > 0:44:36his press officer was. Brooks friendship is more of an issue.
0:44:37 > 0:44:40a year's time if people can remember the name I would be
0:44:40 > 0:44:47surprised. Has anyone in the audience had their view of a leader
0:44:47 > 0:44:51changed by what has happened this week? David Cameron has taken on
0:44:51 > 0:44:55the mess that has left behind, David Cameron, in the last 14
0:44:55 > 0:44:59months he has had to pick up. It was have these funds with all this
0:44:59 > 0:45:02money, now we have all this huge debt and instead of thinking about
0:45:02 > 0:45:06us, us citizens that have to pay our taxes and everything,
0:45:06 > 0:45:11everything is being cut for us. I think someone needs to look out and
0:45:11 > 0:45:14start doing it so that we benefit from it. The tuition fees,
0:45:14 > 0:45:19everything obviously what this guy has said himself, basically it need
0:45:19 > 0:45:23to be all addressed. I feel sorry for Cameron, he has come along to a
0:45:23 > 0:45:29big mess and pick it up. This what has come out now, this next week
0:45:29 > 0:45:34will be chip paper, this won't be anything positive, we need it start
0:45:34 > 0:45:38thinking about us. It is insignificant really? To be honest
0:45:38 > 0:45:41I couldn't careless. I slightly disagree. I think the general
0:45:41 > 0:45:46consensus is that politicians, unfortunately, we assume they lie,
0:45:46 > 0:45:50or don't tell us the whole truth. I think David Cameron, and all of
0:45:50 > 0:45:55them probably have known about this hackings scandal for ages, and have
0:45:55 > 0:45:59chosen not to tell us, or tell us in the right way. They are only, in
0:45:59 > 0:46:02a sense, they have been reactive rather than pro-active, they are
0:46:02 > 0:46:07dealing now they know about it, rather than dealing with while they
0:46:07 > 0:46:10could before we knew about it. All of them are being very reactive,
0:46:10 > 0:46:15knowing about something for so many years and hideing it under the
0:46:15 > 0:46:19carpet, and now all trying to take points off each other or score
0:46:19 > 0:46:25points off each other and revealing it now, it is very bad for him.
0:46:25 > 0:46:33there anyone here who like Nick Clegg, when he was leader first of
0:46:33 > 0:46:40the Liberal Democrats, have you changed your view anyone? I find a
0:46:40 > 0:46:46lot of people take this attitude to Nick Clegg, that when he came into
0:46:46 > 0:46:50the coalition that he couldn't get what he wanted with all his
0:46:50 > 0:46:55policies, but being a junior partner in a coalition, all you can
0:46:55 > 0:47:01really do is to temper the worst aspects of the larger party, and
0:47:01 > 0:47:06then perhaps get a few of your own headline policies through. The only
0:47:06 > 0:47:11one that they really seemed to go for was very ill-advisedly on the
0:47:11 > 0:47:17alternative vote, which is not even part of the liberal idea of
0:47:17 > 0:47:22proportional representation. My Tikritism would lie with the fact
0:47:22 > 0:47:25that - my Tikritism would be that proportionally they have more
0:47:26 > 0:47:35Liberal Democrat ministers in the Government, taking a lot more of
0:47:36 > 0:47:38
0:47:38 > 0:47:43the flack. They should have been more inclined to get more of their
0:47:43 > 0:47:45policies carried forward rather than the bums on seats on the
0:47:45 > 0:47:51ministers' seats. Instead of engaging particularly with that
0:47:51 > 0:47:56question, the three of you, how has politics changed in the year and a
0:47:56 > 0:48:00bit since the election? I guess everyone knew they would be taking
0:48:00 > 0:48:04on one heck of a problem economically, whoever won, but
0:48:05 > 0:48:08politics have changed, haven't they, in the last year? The fundamental
0:48:08 > 0:48:11thing that has changed in the last year is we are in a coalition
0:48:11 > 0:48:13Government. Which I think a year ago nobody could have predicted,
0:48:13 > 0:48:17Tories and Liberal Democrats working together in the national
0:48:17 > 0:48:20interest. It is like the young lady said in the front, we picked up a
0:48:20 > 0:48:25hell of a mess and it is taking two parties to lean it up. At the end
0:48:25 > 0:48:28of the day you can look at all the things, I had a 35-page briefing
0:48:28 > 0:48:31notes from my party to come in on newspaper and sell the Government's
0:48:31 > 0:48:34policies, we can talk about academies and military allowance t
0:48:34 > 0:48:40will end up on the economy, the way it always does. What is happening
0:48:40 > 0:48:44right now in Europe, that nobody is noticing because of hackgate is
0:48:44 > 0:48:51there is a gigantic crisis in the eurozone, we have managed to reduce
0:48:51 > 0:48:54the cost of borrowing. Hackgate? Yes, we are managing to reduce the
0:48:54 > 0:48:58cost of borrowing by difficult decisions we have taken, they are
0:48:58 > 0:49:01tough, nobody is expecting an American particularer tape for it,
0:49:01 > 0:49:06it has to be done. If you look at the polling on who is more trusts
0:49:06 > 0:49:10on the economy, Nick Clegg, and David Cameron and George Osborne,
0:49:10 > 0:49:15and Nick Clegg and the Liberal Democrats showing huge political
0:49:15 > 0:49:20courage, come out on top every time. What page of the briefing notes?
0:49:20 > 0:49:232, 3, 4, right through to 35! is ignoring the briefing notes and
0:49:23 > 0:49:26going to the heart of the matter, that is fixing the deficit and
0:49:26 > 0:49:30fixing the financial problems has to be the number one task in
0:49:30 > 0:49:34Government together, whatever our differences, that is the key.
0:49:34 > 0:49:39You could say that Cameron lost his gloss a bit this week, is that how
0:49:39 > 0:49:43it seems to you? No, I think that, I am being very honest, the Tories
0:49:43 > 0:49:47and the Labour Party are slow to get to this issue we have been
0:49:47 > 0:49:51dealing with this week. You would agree oneing was made by Ed
0:49:51 > 0:49:55Miliband and the Labour Party? had an opposition day debate, he
0:49:55 > 0:49:58then worked with us, the Labour Party worked with us to make sure
0:49:58 > 0:50:02the wording of the motion was inclusive, I respect that, I was
0:50:02 > 0:50:05grateful for that. He was in a difficult position as leader of the
0:50:05 > 0:50:09opposition a couple of weeks ago, people wondering if if he would
0:50:09 > 0:50:12survive to the party conference, he has done better in the last few
0:50:12 > 0:50:15weeks, that is good. But last December the Labour Party were
0:50:15 > 0:50:18having a go at Vince Cable because of his views saying the Murdoch
0:50:18 > 0:50:21empire was too powerful. Last December, it is pretty late
0:50:21 > 0:50:24conversion. Just to link your question to the gentleman's
0:50:24 > 0:50:26question, coalition is entirely different. If the figures had been
0:50:26 > 0:50:28different we would have been working with Labour, probably. We
0:50:28 > 0:50:31were working in the national interest with the Tories, because
0:50:31 > 0:50:35that is the way you the electorate left the figures after the
0:50:35 > 0:50:38electionment we are trying to get all our policies agreed as much as
0:50:38 > 0:50:44possible, two-thirds have been implemented. Our job is to temper
0:50:44 > 0:50:48the Tories, I have to say it would have been a very different economic
0:50:48 > 0:50:52prescription if it was a Tory-only Government. We are delighted to be
0:50:53 > 0:50:56there making it not a Tory-only Government, and we are making it a
0:50:56 > 0:51:01fairer Britain, despite of the difficulties inherited. When you
0:51:01 > 0:51:06saw Gordon Brown's speech you saw suddenly this flashback of how
0:51:06 > 0:51:10politics used to be, really tribal, it doesn't feel right now? I think
0:51:10 > 0:51:16the country has changed. You are absolutely right. I agree with much
0:51:16 > 0:51:22that has been said. I think that what people increasingly want is a
0:51:22 > 0:51:27sense that their politicians, their Members of Parliament, are people
0:51:27 > 0:51:33who understand their lives, and just want to create solutions. But
0:51:33 > 0:51:39you see there is a great difference between, I think, where we are in
0:51:39 > 0:51:43Labour, and the coalition. Particularly the Conservative part
0:51:43 > 0:51:47of the coalition. It seems absolutely clear toe me, from the
0:51:47 > 0:51:53every day - clear to me, from the every day lives from the people I
0:51:53 > 0:51:56know and I represent, if you haven't got active Government,
0:51:56 > 0:52:03supporting people in realising things on their own behalf, it is
0:52:03 > 0:52:05much, much harder. That's not knocking up against an ideolgical
0:52:05 > 0:52:11position, with particularly the Conservative part of the coalition,
0:52:11 > 0:52:14which basically says people manage on their own, and without the
0:52:14 > 0:52:18Government. You don't get apprenticeships, you don't get
0:52:18 > 0:52:22growth, you don't get the kind of stimulation of the economy that's
0:52:22 > 0:52:28going to get young people, across London, where we are now, or across
0:52:28 > 0:52:35the country, back into work. You don't get ...You Are beginning to
0:52:35 > 0:52:42sound like a briefing document now? A briefing book! I want to bring in
0:52:42 > 0:52:44this couple over here. Go on. fascinating thing about a focus
0:52:44 > 0:52:49group it reveals the gap between Westminster and what people think.
0:52:49 > 0:52:53You are having to push it really hard to get anyone to say anything
0:52:53 > 0:52:56about hackgate or get any echo of the Westminster consensus, this is
0:52:57 > 0:53:00a transformative moment in politics, it is fantastic for Ed Miliband.
0:53:00 > 0:53:03This is not where people are. Obviously the thing that will
0:53:03 > 0:53:06transform people's prospects what happens over the next year to
0:53:06 > 0:53:09living standard. That is what people really care about. It is not
0:53:09 > 0:53:12where people really are in the top nine things in the list, it there
0:53:13 > 0:53:16is in the back of their mind. I have had people coming up to me
0:53:17 > 0:53:22saying you have to get Murdoch now. It is Not The Nine O'Clock News an
0:53:22 > 0:53:27issue it is not just - it is not not an issue it is not just up at
0:53:27 > 0:53:30the top. I'm not saying it is important, I work as a journalist,
0:53:30 > 0:53:33I'm saying what the electoral reaction will be. I have had more
0:53:33 > 0:53:38calls and e-mails to my office about this than anything else in
0:53:38 > 0:53:42the last five years. They are not just all organised campaign e-mail,
0:53:42 > 0:53:52it is people feeling very strongly about and it letting me know about
0:53:52 > 0:53:52
0:53:52 > 0:54:38Apology for the loss of subtitles for 46 seconds
0:54:38 > 0:54:43Thank you all very much. That's all for tonight. Last night
0:54:44 > 0:54:48we left you with pictures which are producer claimed were of the planet
0:54:48 > 0:54:58Neptune, not a single viewer pointed out they weren't, they were
0:54:58 > 0:55:01of your Anneous, or his at least - Uraneous. Here is the real thing,
0:55:01 > 0:55:06we think. # Neptune is a planet
0:55:06 > 0:55:10# In our solar system # It has its own winds
0:55:10 > 0:55:14# In a solar system # It orbited round the sun