:00:10. > :00:15.Tonight, Scotland Yard in turmoil, another resignation at the top of
:00:15. > :00:20.the Met, is trust in the police the biggest casualty of the phone
:00:20. > :00:30.hacking scandal? Assistant Commissioner Yates
:00:30. > :00:30.
:00:30. > :00:34.follows his boss's example and quits, more in anger. There is ill-
:00:34. > :00:38.informed and malicious gossip being published about me personally.
:00:38. > :00:42.Another bizarre twist, Sean Hoare, the original News of the World
:00:42. > :00:47.whistle-blower is found dead. While David Cameron cuts short his trade
:00:47. > :00:51.trip to Africa, could the crisis cause the stop of his Premiership.
:00:51. > :00:54.This happened on my watch and I'm determined to get to the bottom of
:00:54. > :00:58.it. We will discuss the damage he's suffering and the state of the Met,
:00:58. > :01:03.and discuss the committee hearing with Rupert Murdoch tomorrow. The
:01:03. > :01:13.United States declared last month their drones had stopped killing
:01:13. > :01:14.
:01:14. > :01:18.Pakistani civilians, we have new Good evening, is Britain's biggest
:01:18. > :01:21.and most important police force merely incompetent, or corrupt or
:01:21. > :01:25.possibly both. You can forgive people for wondering. Public
:01:25. > :01:31.confidence in police is said to be rocking after two high-profile
:01:31. > :01:34.resignations. The Met Police chief saying he took a free stay at a
:01:34. > :01:38.health spa, and botched investigation into phone hacking
:01:38. > :01:43.and news that a former senior executive of News of the World was
:01:43. > :01:48.working for the Met at the same time. How far can we trust the yard
:01:48. > :01:53.and the people running it? Reporters would meet some of the
:01:53. > :01:57.Met's most senior officers in this wine bar, just a stone's throw from
:01:57. > :02:00.New Scotland Yard. They were, we are told, on drinking
:02:00. > :02:04.terms, something which made some other police officers deeply
:02:04. > :02:07.uncomfortable. But the latest revelations in this fast-moving
:02:07. > :02:11.story, appeared to show that relationships went even deeper than
:02:11. > :02:14.this. Journalists, of course, will always
:02:14. > :02:17.want to meet serving police officers for information, it is
:02:17. > :02:21.part of the job. For the police, though, it is all about degree and
:02:21. > :02:26.judgment. I have been told by a former, very senior police source,
:02:26. > :02:29.that in this bar, in the West End there used to be regular meetings
:02:29. > :02:33.between News of the World journalists, and Paul Stephenson
:02:33. > :02:37.and John Yates and the Met's head of media, to discuss stories. I'm
:02:37. > :02:41.told the relationships were incredibly close.
:02:41. > :02:45.The former commissioner met with Rupert Murdoch's executives 18
:02:45. > :02:51.times in four years. There are suggestions tonight that some other
:02:51. > :02:57.relationships were much closer than this. The $6 4,000 question is was
:02:57. > :03:01.there any element of the relationship between the police and
:03:01. > :03:06.News of the World that some how impeded them from pursuing the
:03:07. > :03:11.phone hacking inquiry. That is the question. The man who decided in
:03:11. > :03:15.2009 not to reopen the hacking inquiry after spending eight hours
:03:15. > :03:18.reviewing 11,000 pages of evidence. Has come under relentless pressure
:03:19. > :03:24.to resign. Earlier today he was threatened with suspension, so he
:03:24. > :03:30.jumped. We in the police service are truly accountable. Those of us
:03:30. > :03:34.who take on the most difficult jobs clearly have to stand up and be
:03:35. > :03:41.counted when things go wrong. However, when we get things wrong,
:03:41. > :03:44.we say so. We try to put them right. As I have said very recently, it is
:03:44. > :03:51.matter of great personal regret that those potentially affected by
:03:51. > :03:57.phone hacking were not dealt with appropriately. Sadly, there
:03:57. > :04:01.continues to be a huge amount of inaccurate, ill-informed, and on
:04:01. > :04:04.occasion, down right malicious gossip being published about me
:04:04. > :04:08.personally. I think once he decided, without properly going through the
:04:08. > :04:12.evidence, that there was no case to answer, really the writing was on
:04:12. > :04:15.the wall, and there was no way back. You cannot have somebody in charge
:04:15. > :04:19.of counter terrorism with that sort of attitude. I think it is shame,
:04:19. > :04:23.because he has done some very good work, there is no question he was
:04:23. > :04:28.an outstanding officer. He made mistakes, and he had to pay the
:04:28. > :04:32.price. This is the man at the centre of the controversy, Wallis,
:04:32. > :04:39.former deputy editor of News of the World, arrested last week. The Met
:04:39. > :04:43.paid him �1,000 day, for 24 days media consultancy last year. He
:04:43. > :04:48.worked closely with commissioner John Yates, whose committee vetted
:04:48. > :04:52.his application. He was also adviser to the luxury Champneys
:04:52. > :04:56.health spar, and it emerged that the former police commissioner,
:04:56. > :05:01.Paul Stephenson, accepted thousands of pounds of free hospitality at
:05:01. > :05:04.the club. He denied any propriety, and said the company is owned by
:05:04. > :05:09.family friend and the stay was declared. That wasn't enough to
:05:09. > :05:13.save him, the commissioner resigned less than 24 hours ago. What was a
:05:13. > :05:17.commissioner from the police doing accepting such a high-level
:05:18. > :05:23.incentive or high-level gift. But ultimately the police should be
:05:23. > :05:28.putting themselves out of reach of any such allegation or inference. I
:05:28. > :05:33.think you know, incredibly naive, the head of the police shouldn't be
:05:33. > :05:39.so naive. What I find very odd is the Met had to hire any outside
:05:39. > :05:43.people to help with publicity, when they had him and 69 press officers,
:05:43. > :05:47.it almost beggers belief that you would needed a decisional support
:05:47. > :05:52.in those circumstances. A shrew of advice has followed, the Home
:05:52. > :05:55.Secretary has asked the police inspectorate to see if the media
:05:55. > :06:05.has had undue influence over the police, and there will be a new
:06:05. > :06:29.
:06:29. > :06:34.Press Complaints Commission report The Mayor of London said the two
:06:34. > :06:38.top officers' resignations had been inevitable. There is absolutely
:06:38. > :06:44.nothing proven against the probity or the professionalism of either
:06:44. > :06:47.man. But, in both case, we have to recognise that the Nexus of
:06:47. > :06:52.questions about the relationship between the Met and the News of the
:06:52. > :06:56.World, was likely to be distracting to both officers in the run up to
:06:56. > :07:00.the Olympic games. Two chiefs gone in two days, the
:07:00. > :07:04.Met is in turmoil tonight. But for some inside the organisation, and
:07:04. > :07:10.for others, who have recently left, this is an opportunity to break the
:07:10. > :07:14.ties with the Murdoch press. John Yates has had his critics, angry
:07:14. > :07:19.about his closeness to News of the World's people, and the new broom
:07:19. > :07:24.cannot be vigorous enough. I'm sure that there are very good and very
:07:24. > :07:29.honest officers within the Met, to the highest level, that wanted to
:07:29. > :07:33.see this cleared out, wanted to get rid of those people who they
:07:33. > :07:37.thought perhaps were too close to the press. It seems for the police,
:07:37. > :07:44.that embarrassing fact about their relationship with News of the World
:07:44. > :07:48.are emerging daily. Tonight, the Met confirmed that a senior
:07:48. > :07:53.journalist on the paper was employed for a while as a Ukrainian
:07:54. > :07:57.interpretor, with access to sensitive material. Critics say the
:07:57. > :08:03.scandal is overplayed with his opponents. But that argument seems
:08:03. > :08:10.far fetched in the light of evidence such as this.
:08:10. > :08:13.I'm joined by previous mayor, Ken Livingstone, and Boles, and Sir
:08:13. > :08:19.Chris Fox. This is pretty catastrophic for the
:08:19. > :08:23.Met, to lose such senior officers, who were very highly regarded in
:08:23. > :08:27.the profession, whatever mistakes they might have made? It certainly
:08:27. > :08:31.is, at a time when the Met is under a lot of pressure, particularly to
:08:31. > :08:34.lose Paul, who I have the highest regard for, it is a tragedy. You
:08:34. > :08:41.hear the mayor actually saying, there is nothing proven against him
:08:41. > :08:45.in any way, and it just seems rather sad and rather, a very toxic
:08:45. > :08:49.situation to deal with. That is his basic problem, I think. Given that
:08:49. > :08:54.it is very toxic, and given we don't know where it ends, actually,
:08:54. > :09:00.is there any reason for the public to have full confidence in the
:09:00. > :09:04.Metropolitan Police tonight? There are 30-40,000 officers in the
:09:04. > :09:07.Metropolitan Police, we are talking about a handful of officers here,
:09:07. > :09:10.although some senior ones. I think the public know that the vast
:09:11. > :09:15.majority of officers are getting on with their job. Indeed, when you
:09:15. > :09:20.look at some of the things that are alleged and talked up, I think John
:09:20. > :09:23.Yates used the word "gossiped", when you see some of those things,
:09:23. > :09:26.when they are seen in a proper investigative way, and balanced
:09:26. > :09:30.against the time those decisions were made, and balanced against
:09:30. > :09:34.what was happening in the rest of the environment, it may not looks a
:09:34. > :09:38.it does now. So I just feel that it is all one way traffic at the
:09:38. > :09:42.moment. That must be exceedingly frustrating for the senior people
:09:42. > :09:48.in the Met. When you were Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, why didn't
:09:48. > :09:55.you see some of it coming? There was no evidence of it, this arises
:09:55. > :09:58.from the Guardian expose say in 2009. There was closeness between
:09:59. > :10:04.officers and News of the World back to when you were the mayor?
:10:04. > :10:08.looks back many decades, that wasn't an issue. Unlike the current
:10:08. > :10:11.mayor I did a press conference every week, nobody from the BBC or
:10:11. > :10:15.the Guardian came along and said there is more to this than meets
:10:15. > :10:18.the eye. We saw hacking into the Royal Family, and in 2007, the
:10:19. > :10:23.people guilty went to prison. At that stage nobody came to me and
:10:23. > :10:27.said we think there is much more to this. Had they done so I would have
:10:27. > :10:31.made certain it was investigated. Wasn't your relationship with News
:10:31. > :10:37.of the World too close, you wrote columns for the Sun, you did do t
:10:37. > :10:46.you must have been reasonably close. You also spent �350,000 of money on
:10:46. > :10:50.the PR company run by Matthew Freud, the husband of a Murdoch. We looked
:10:50. > :10:54.for marketing company and they were the most successful bid. They
:10:54. > :10:57.happened to be connected to the Murdoch family? You simply can't
:10:57. > :11:02.get away from it, Rupert Murdoch phoned the four editors of his
:11:02. > :11:07.papers in Britain, just before the last mayoral election, to make
:11:07. > :11:10.certain they were endorsing Boris Johnson, I think I must be doing
:11:10. > :11:16.something right if Rupert Murdoch intervenes to oppose my election.
:11:16. > :11:21.You had to use out of all the PR companies on planet earth you had
:11:21. > :11:26.to use a Murdoch connected one? They were a very good one, we got
:11:26. > :11:33.�21 million investment from China after those offices opened. Boris
:11:33. > :11:36.Johnson talks about the nexus, the guy working for News of the World
:11:36. > :11:39.as a translator for News of the World and Scotland Yard at the same
:11:39. > :11:43.time. We have Neil Wallis's daughter and so on, and so on. How
:11:43. > :11:47.far does it go? I don't know, this is something the various different
:11:47. > :11:51.inquiries launched will have to get to the bottom of. There was a
:11:51. > :11:56.culture in which this was normal. It wasn't just a few bad apples
:11:56. > :11:59.doing bad things. If it had been that it would be less worrying. It
:11:59. > :12:02.was a culture where this seemed fine, and people who were good
:12:02. > :12:06.people and police officers, thought it was normal to have a lunch with
:12:06. > :12:10.a journalist, and maybe take a bit of money for something. That was
:12:10. > :12:16.wrong? It was wrong, that is where we have to root out the whole thing
:12:16. > :12:21.not a few individuals. Why did Boris Johnson when some of it came
:12:21. > :12:24.up said it was codswallop, there was a degree of complacency in
:12:24. > :12:27.London too? The whole political class have underestimated this for
:12:27. > :12:31.a very long time. Frankly, we were all in the business of trying to
:12:31. > :12:35.win the approval of various newspapers and various journalists
:12:35. > :12:39.and editors and even proprietors, and as the Prime Minister has said
:12:39. > :12:44.we are all at fault here, Boris is not excluded interest that, nor is
:12:44. > :12:48.he the only one. Sir Chris Fox, do you worry there will be more
:12:48. > :12:52.resignations from the Met over this, these two were at the top of the
:12:52. > :12:55.tree. A lot of people were feeding them manufactures which turned out
:12:56. > :12:59.to be rubbish? I don't know, I don't know enough about it, there
:12:59. > :13:02.hasn't been a proper investigation, that worries me more than anything.
:13:02. > :13:06.People are being forced into resignation positions before
:13:06. > :13:09.anybody has had a proper cold investigative look. I mean, hearing
:13:09. > :13:13.that some of the nonsense that has been spoken, for example, if you
:13:13. > :13:16.are the commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, you are
:13:16. > :13:20.constantly under media spotlight, you are a target for Fleet Street
:13:20. > :13:24.or Wapping, as it is, a target for international press, it is
:13:24. > :13:31.absolutely quite normal for you to want the best strategic advice you
:13:31. > :13:35.can get, and what better than from an editor from a big title. So you
:13:35. > :13:41.are going to have to involve yourselves at the top of the media
:13:41. > :13:45.world, otherwise you will not survive t has been proven you won't
:13:45. > :13:50.survive. You have to be able to play the game, and you have to be
:13:50. > :13:53.able to deal in information which means that it is not about giving
:13:53. > :13:56.information, it is about make sure that you are providing the
:13:56. > :14:01.information which is keeping the media satisfied.
:14:01. > :14:04.It maybe so, but you are also the head of the most prestigious police
:14:04. > :14:07.force in this country and if you have somebody who is working for
:14:07. > :14:12.you, who works for an organisation, or worked for an organisation which
:14:12. > :14:16.is under investigation, surely you must smell a rat there, there is
:14:16. > :14:19.something wrong. All these people who resigned, none of them did
:14:19. > :14:22.anything wrong, Rebekah Brooks didn't do anything wrong, Andy
:14:23. > :14:26.Coulson didn't do anything wrong, the police officers didn't do
:14:26. > :14:29.anything wrong, why have they all gone? If we wait the until the
:14:29. > :14:34.investigation was done, we might know the answer to. That the bottom
:14:34. > :14:36.of this for me, whenever the police actually do take action, one of the
:14:36. > :14:40.tactics of the people they take action against is to start
:14:40. > :14:43.complaining about them. It happens at the very lowest level, the
:14:43. > :14:47.contables on the street know about it, they have complaints made.
:14:47. > :14:50.There is a system in place for those complaints to be investigated,
:14:51. > :14:53.coldly, and factually decided. That is what should have happened in
:14:53. > :14:58.this case. The Metropolitan Police authority should have investigated
:14:58. > :15:02.it, they should have waited for that. And then come to a conclusion.
:15:02. > :15:05.But the actual hysteria that has generated round a story like this,
:15:05. > :15:10.leads people into a position where they have no choice. If he this
:15:10. > :15:14.want to continue to investigate this, and be accepted as truthful
:15:14. > :15:21.and honest investigators, they have to resign. Because the atmosphere
:15:21. > :15:23.is such that no-one gives them a chance to do that. Let me asks you
:15:24. > :15:28.two, you are both intimately involved in the running of London,
:15:28. > :15:30.do you think we might come to regret this, will you sleep more
:15:30. > :15:35.easily tonight knowing that two people, tasked with the security of
:15:35. > :15:38.the Olympic games, and dealing with terrorism, have gone from the Met?
:15:39. > :15:42.There was nothing good about these people going. The only one I have
:15:42. > :15:46.had dealings with was Paul Stephenson, and I thought he was a
:15:46. > :15:49.remarkable man, one of those police officers who automatically inspires
:15:49. > :15:53.confidence. As he himself said, he reached the conclusion that he
:15:53. > :15:57.could no longer command public confidence, as this thing ran and
:15:57. > :16:01.ran. In probably one of the most challenging years for London
:16:01. > :16:10.security. It was a conclusion he drew. Do you think we will regret
:16:10. > :16:14.it? I don't, because there are very talented officers there, Cressida
:16:14. > :16:18.has taken on the role Yates had. And you have a deputy commissioner
:16:19. > :16:22.embedded in awful this. These two people have had to go, they went
:16:22. > :16:26.because they were asked to look into this, they failed to do it.
:16:26. > :16:29.Were they lied to by junior officers, in way skaist case they
:16:29. > :16:33.have to be cleaned out. If it is simply they were naive and
:16:33. > :16:36.accepting there is nothing in there, and been there and told that by
:16:36. > :16:39.junior officers, they have a real complaint. They have gone, but the
:16:39. > :16:44.Prime Minister, who was warned about Andy Coulson, and mateor of
:16:44. > :16:48.London, who was warned a year ago by Labour members there was
:16:48. > :16:51.something wrong, they stay in place. Now the myriad of new developments
:16:51. > :16:55.and strange twists to this story are taxings everyone following it,
:16:55. > :16:58.there was another example tonight with the death of the News of the
:16:58. > :17:00.World, who blew the whistle on phone hacking, Sean Hoare. Police
:17:00. > :17:06.say the circumstances are not suspicious.
:17:06. > :17:10.You better remind us of who Sean Hoare was? He was a very colourful
:17:10. > :17:13.character, a showbiz reporter on News of the World, successful at
:17:13. > :17:20.his job, until he was dismissed with drink and drug problems some
:17:20. > :17:23.time ago. All the people I speak to speak of him as a very talented
:17:23. > :17:27.showbiz reporter. Who had a multitude of resources and very
:17:27. > :17:32.good at his job. As you mentioned in the introduction, the police in
:17:32. > :17:35.Hertfordshire are not confirming his identity, but it is widely
:17:35. > :17:39.reported it is Sean Hoare found death in Watford. The circumstances
:17:39. > :17:43.are said to be unexplained, but not necessarily suspicious. But what we
:17:43. > :17:48.do know about him, of course, was that he had the guts, I suppose, to
:17:48. > :17:51.come out some weeks ago now, and talk openly about the endemic
:17:51. > :17:57.culture of phone hacking at News of the World. I think we can see a
:17:57. > :18:03.clip from it. It was endemic, it happened. REPORTER: When you say it
:18:03. > :18:09.was endemic, phone hacking and the use of illegal practices to secure
:18:09. > :18:12.stories, that was endemic, is what thank what you were saying? Yeah.
:18:12. > :18:20.People are scared, if you have to get a story, you have to get it,
:18:20. > :18:27.you have to get that by whatever means. One of his other colleagues
:18:27. > :18:32.was dris direction one of the few people - Matt Driscoll, one of the
:18:32. > :18:36.few people to talk about hacking, and others who have appeared on the
:18:36. > :18:40.programme before. The thing about speaking openly about it, some of
:18:40. > :18:43.them sign confidentiality agreements, and some have been so
:18:43. > :18:51.closely linked into the phone hacking, aleedgedly, they don't
:18:51. > :18:55.want to speak. It is remarkable that Matt Driscoll spoke about his
:18:55. > :19:00.experiences too. When we were both approached to talk by the New York
:19:00. > :19:03.Times to b what was going on. We were discredited about having an
:19:03. > :19:06.axe to grind because we left the newspaper. That was unfair, because
:19:06. > :19:13.all we wanted to do was tell the truth. You have to remember, my
:19:13. > :19:16.shef and Sean, were one of a hand - myself and Sean were one of handful
:19:16. > :19:22.of people who left the paper without a confidentiality clause.
:19:22. > :19:24.We were one of the few people who could tell the truth. That is an
:19:24. > :19:27.interesting point. Sean Hoare would have been real use to the
:19:27. > :19:33.inquiries? He would have been a huge asset. Especially given that
:19:33. > :19:36.his time in the paper coincided with Andy Coulson kouls who went on
:19:36. > :19:40.to become communication - Andy Coulson kouls, who went on to
:19:40. > :19:46.become communications director for the Prime Minister. Heternal
:19:46. > :19:49.experience of the widespread culture - he had internal
:19:49. > :19:52.experience of the widespread culture of hacking. There is a new
:19:52. > :19:58.joke at Westminster tonight, what is the difference between God and
:19:59. > :20:01.David Cameron, God is everywhere, David Cameron serve where - is
:20:01. > :20:04.everywhere except in the House of Commons. At the moment the Prime
:20:04. > :20:08.Minister is still on Trade Commission to Nigeria and South
:20:08. > :20:12.Africa, which he maintains his more pressing than his role in the
:20:12. > :20:18.biggest scandal in his time in office. Some are wondering if the
:20:18. > :20:25.crisis could yet engulf his Premiership. Spot the difference,
:20:25. > :20:30.two of the mightiest men in Britain. Who both employed former top News
:20:30. > :20:34.of the World journalist, for PR advice. On the right, Met chief,
:20:34. > :20:38.Paul Stephenson, who quit last night, after Thursday's arrest of
:20:38. > :20:42.Neil Wallis, over alleged phone hacking. On the left, David Cameron,
:20:42. > :20:48.still Prime Minister, after his former aide, Andy Coulson, was
:20:48. > :20:52.arrested the week before. A similarity hinted at by Sir Paul
:20:52. > :20:55.in his resignation statement. And with the spotlight increase league
:20:55. > :21:01.on Mr Cameron, even though he was on a trade trip to South Africa
:21:01. > :21:07.today, he tried to tackle it. would say that the situation in the
:21:07. > :21:10.Metropolitan Police is really quite different to the situation in
:21:10. > :21:15.Government, not least that the issues that the Metropolitan Police
:21:15. > :21:18.are looking at, and the issues around them, have had a direct
:21:18. > :21:22.bearing on public confidence into the police inquiry, into the News
:21:22. > :21:28.of the World, and indeed to the police themselves. And for my part
:21:28. > :21:35.what I would say, is this, that we have taken very decisive action.
:21:35. > :21:39.But Ed Miliband, speaking in London, was determined to pursue the
:21:39. > :21:49.comparison. Sir John Stevens has taken responsibility and resigned
:21:49. > :21:51.
:21:51. > :21:55.over - Sir John Stevens, has taken responsibility over the hiring of -
:21:55. > :21:59.we need leadership to get to the truth over what happened. But the
:21:59. > :22:09.Prime Minister is ham strung by the decisions he made and his refusal
:22:09. > :22:11.
:22:11. > :22:15.to face up to them. This afternoon Boris Johnson said Sir Paul
:22:15. > :22:20.Stephenson's resignation was the right thing to do, but he wasn't so
:22:20. > :22:26.helpful to his friend, David Cameron. REPORTER: If it was, as
:22:26. > :22:29.you say, the right call for Sir Paul Stephenson, for hiring a PR
:22:29. > :22:35.man in the phone hacking scandal, shouldn't David Cameron resign over
:22:35. > :22:39.the hiring of a PR man in the phone hacking scandal? I'm not here to
:22:39. > :22:42.discuss Government appointment, I'm here to talk about events in the
:22:42. > :22:46.Metropolitan Police Service, those questions you need to direct to
:22:46. > :22:49.Governments. I don't think there is a very clear read-across in this
:22:49. > :22:53.matter, afterall I'm not aware that Number Ten Downing Street was
:22:53. > :22:57.actually in charge of an investigation. REPORTER: The Prime
:22:57. > :23:01.Minister has just called a judicial inquiry of it, of course he's in
:23:01. > :23:04.charge of an investigation, he has just called a judicial inquiry?
:23:05. > :23:08.Michael, I know the point you are trying to make. It is not relevant
:23:08. > :23:12.to whey want to do with policing in London. This is a matter you must
:23:12. > :23:18.direct to Number Ten Downing Street, I suggest you ask them. It was left
:23:18. > :23:22.to Nick Clegg, of all people, the man who last year warned Cameron
:23:22. > :23:27.about Andy Coulson, to come to the PM's aid. I don't think this is
:23:27. > :23:32.about the Prime Minister's position, absolutely nod, let's keep this in
:23:32. > :23:35.- not, let's keep it in perspective. The issue with the police is the
:23:35. > :23:40.fears that a criminal investigation may have been compromised in some
:23:40. > :23:44.way, that is the focus of people's attention today. Thanks.
:23:44. > :23:48.Then, when the Home Secretary told MPs she was launching three new
:23:48. > :23:54.inquiries, into aspects of the police, Labour resumed its attack.
:23:54. > :23:59.The judgment of the Met has been called into serious question, by
:23:59. > :24:04.appointing Neil Wallis, but so has the judgment of the Prime Minister
:24:04. > :24:07.by appointing Neil Wallis's boss, Andy Coulson. People will look at
:24:07. > :24:15.this and think it is one rule for the police and one for the Prime
:24:15. > :24:18.Minister. But May, unlike Jeremy Hunt last week, went on the
:24:18. > :24:20.offensive. She asked about the whole question of the difference
:24:20. > :24:24.between the Met and the Government. Of course there is a difference
:24:24. > :24:26.between the Met and the Government. The Metropolitan Police were
:24:26. > :24:30.investigating allegations of wrongdoing at the News of the World.
:24:30. > :24:34.I think it is absolutely right that there should be a line between the
:24:34. > :24:39.investigators and the investigated. Then classic piece of Dennis
:24:39. > :24:46.Skinner. People are resigning at Murdoch's,
:24:46. > :24:53.people are being arrested, all over the place, and yet only one area
:24:53. > :24:58.remains intact, on millionaire's row, the Government bench. When is
:24:58. > :25:01."dodgy" Dave going to do the decent thing and resign. But it wasn't
:25:01. > :25:06.just Labour MPs who were sensing blood. What has been striking about
:25:06. > :25:13.today is the degree to which Tory bloggers and MPs are starting to
:25:13. > :25:18.talk about David Cameron's future. By shares, - buy shares in Theresa
:25:18. > :25:23.May was the whisper after her performance today, including from
:25:23. > :25:26.one ministerial aide, not her's, I should stress. There has always
:25:27. > :25:31.been a substantial chunk of Tory MPs who have never liked David
:25:31. > :25:37.Cameron, but now, right-wingers, who once saw Andy Coulson as their
:25:37. > :25:42.mate who agreed with them on issues like crime and immigration, are
:25:42. > :25:46.ironically exploiting his demise to stick the boot in.
:25:46. > :25:52.Welcome, I didn't know you were so young. He won't be at this rate!
:25:53. > :25:57.For David Cameron, who met Desmond Tutu today, has announced he will
:25:57. > :26:00.return from Africa early, tomorrow morning and not Wednesday morning.
:26:00. > :26:05.More time, to prepare his statement for the extra Commons sitting,
:26:05. > :26:12.which today was called for Wednesday. Meant to be the first
:26:12. > :26:16.day of MPs' summer break, some hope. I'm joined by the deputy leader of
:26:16. > :26:20.the Labour Party, Harriet Harman, and the Conservative MP, Nick Boles
:26:20. > :26:23.is still with us. There is something wrong with the
:26:23. > :26:27.Prime Minister's judgment here? made clear he received assurance,
:26:27. > :26:32.which he accepted, the same assurances were given to a Scottish
:26:32. > :26:37.court, the Scottish court accepted them. They didn't employ him as
:26:37. > :26:40.spokesman in Number Ten? Sorry, they call made some pretty big
:26:40. > :26:45.decisions in relation to Mr Andy Coulson. He has received those
:26:45. > :26:51.assurances, and if those assurances turned out to be lies, he will put
:26:51. > :26:58.his hand up and say it was the wrong decision. The biggest thing
:26:58. > :27:03.levelled at him is niavity, all of this frothy talk, about him looking
:27:03. > :27:09.at his position like the Metropolitan Police commissioner,
:27:09. > :27:14.it is end of term giddyness. It is 3.00am, the phone rings in Downing
:27:14. > :27:18.Street in a national crisis and somebody that has displayed niavity
:27:18. > :27:24.answers the phone, is that what we want? That is not what I have said,
:27:24. > :27:29.it is the worst levelled at him is niavity. He is not niavity and
:27:29. > :27:32.gullible? A Scottish court was also guilty of the same niavity, the
:27:32. > :27:36.police and a Parliamentary Committee, the Labour Party, who
:27:36. > :27:40.frankly hosted, wined and dined the Murdochs for decades were also
:27:40. > :27:43.guilty of the same niavity, we are all, as the Prime Minister said n
:27:43. > :27:48.this together, we have all failed as politicians to understand the
:27:48. > :27:51.nature of the relationship. Harriet Harman you are part of this pattern
:27:51. > :27:55.of niavity? We are not all in this together, it is not a Scottish
:27:55. > :27:59.court running the country, it is not a Scottish court that hired
:27:59. > :28:04.Andy Coulson, he didn't have to hire Andy Coulson. It was a Labour
:28:04. > :28:07.Prime Minister who invited Rebekah Brooks for a slumber party at a
:28:07. > :28:12.taxpayer paid for grace and favour mansion, Chequers, after, after,
:28:12. > :28:16.News of the World journalists had been convicted of phone hacking. So
:28:16. > :28:19.therefore, don't come all high and mighty on us, don't get on to your
:28:19. > :28:22.little moral high horse, the Labour Party was up to its neck in this,
:28:22. > :28:26.and we're not claiming we are better, we are not claiming we are
:28:26. > :28:31.without sin, but the Labour Party to start its claiming without sin
:28:31. > :28:36.will not wash. Answer that? What was about to happen, is we were
:28:36. > :28:42.within days of David Cameron's Government waving through Rupert
:28:42. > :28:47.and James Murdoch's bid to own not only the Sun, News of the World and
:28:47. > :28:51.the Times, but the whole of BSkyB, and David Cameron saying that he's
:28:51. > :28:55.determined to get to the bottom of this, he went all the way to South
:28:55. > :29:01.Africa in order to not to answer questions, he has got some's to
:29:01. > :29:04.answer. - questions to answer. When you have a crisis engulfing the
:29:04. > :29:07.Metropolitan Police, which is very serious, whole issues raised about
:29:07. > :29:11.the press, you do expect leadership from the Prime Minister, and
:29:11. > :29:14.because he will not acknowledge his error in employing Andy Coulson,
:29:14. > :29:18.because he will not answer questions about BSkyB, he cannot
:29:18. > :29:21.show that leadership. Are you saying that because Neil Wallis was
:29:21. > :29:24.a resigning matter for the Metropolitan Police commissioner,
:29:24. > :29:32.that Andy Coulson is a resigning matter for the Prime Minister?
:29:32. > :29:36.are not calling on the Prime Minister to resign. You didn't
:29:36. > :29:40.dispute Dennis Skinner's point. is not the Labour Party's position
:29:40. > :29:46.to call on the Prime Minister to resign, we are calling on him to
:29:46. > :29:50.answer questions, two questions in particular. Which is why he's
:29:50. > :29:55.coming back on Wednesday. The logic surely is he should go, if you
:29:55. > :29:58.think it is right for Sir Paul Stephenson to resign over what he
:29:58. > :30:02.presumably did. Presumably your logic is he should go? No, we are
:30:02. > :30:06.calling on him to answer questions. You called on Ken Clarke to go over
:30:06. > :30:09.a misstatement of rape, this is the Prime Minister over who he employs
:30:09. > :30:15.in Downing Street, it is OK for him to stay? He didn't have to employ
:30:15. > :30:18.Andy Coulson, he did, and that was an error of judgment. We are
:30:18. > :30:21.calling on him to acknowledge it was an error of judgment. Nobody
:30:21. > :30:24.can see David Cameron as Prime Minister, leading the country and
:30:24. > :30:29.the Metropolitan Police, through this difficult crisis, if he won't
:30:29. > :30:33.acknowledge his own error of judgment. There is another question
:30:33. > :30:36.he won't answer. There is one more question, you have had your say.
:30:36. > :30:39.There is another question he won't answer, he was having dinner right
:30:39. > :30:44.at the height of this crisis with Rebekah Brooks r we really to
:30:44. > :30:49.believe he didn't discuss the BSkyB bid. This is the shadow. He won't
:30:49. > :30:54.answer that question. His judgment, in going to South Africa, and
:30:54. > :30:57.Nigeria, when this is going on, that was also daft? Can you tell me
:30:57. > :31:01.what is the judgment call in saying to the President of South Africa,
:31:01. > :31:05.extremely important ally and trading partner, and the President
:31:05. > :31:08.of Nigeria, that because of a little local difficulty, which, by
:31:08. > :31:13.the way you have dealt with by announce ago full judicial inquiry,
:31:13. > :31:18.with wide ranging powers, supported by every part of the house, when
:31:18. > :31:21.this deal threatening has already been dropped by News Corp, what
:31:21. > :31:27.would the credibility attached to a decision to pull out. What would
:31:27. > :31:31.people around the world. Why is he coming back earlier? Because he has
:31:31. > :31:35.seen the South African Prime Minister and the Nigerian President.
:31:35. > :31:43.Because it is right and proper for parliament, before it rises, to
:31:44. > :31:47.have a final statement on this on the whole scandal and the issues.
:31:47. > :31:50.The Prime Minister has to continue to be Prime Minister and is right
:31:50. > :31:54.to do things? He has come back because Ed Miliband was clear he
:31:54. > :31:57.would call for the House to sit on Wednesday for the questions to be
:31:57. > :32:03.answered. The truth is David Cameron is so boxed in by his wrong
:32:03. > :32:07.judgment about Andy Coulson, and about his involvement with BSkyB.
:32:07. > :32:11.Harriet were there any wrong judgments when you were deputy
:32:11. > :32:15.leader. When you were in Gordon Brown's Government, have there been
:32:15. > :32:19.wrong judgments in Tony Blair's Government. You want to ask her
:32:19. > :32:23.about wrong judgments. I would like to hear the end of the sentence and
:32:23. > :32:27.then we will come to you? There is a crisis and he can't show the
:32:27. > :32:31.leadership a Prime Minister should. At least we have had remarkable
:32:31. > :32:35.leadership from Ed Miliband, and David Cameron has followed.
:32:35. > :32:39.leadership Gordon Brown showed in not calling for a judicial inquiry
:32:39. > :32:41.or setting up after the original phone hacking. Ed Miliband has
:32:42. > :32:45.broken through this, hopefully there will be a reasonable
:32:45. > :32:49.settlement to all of this. I'm on my fifth Prime Minister now, I have
:32:49. > :32:54.never seen one looking more slippery and less prepared to
:32:54. > :32:59.answer the questions. Weren't the Conservatives 1% ahead of you in
:32:59. > :33:06.the opinion polls today? All we are saying is there are questions to
:33:06. > :33:11.answer. Maybe he has good answers? He has gone up to South Africa away
:33:11. > :33:17.from it. Excuse me the phones of the Royal Family were bugged.
:33:17. > :33:25.have just heard Harriet give herpes. You seem blowing a lot of air.
:33:25. > :33:30.is pumping air into this. What the met commissioner resigned, Milly
:33:30. > :33:37.Dowler's phone hacked. You have lost all sense. A very senior judge
:33:37. > :33:43.has the judicial inquiry. Forced to by Ed Miliband. He didn't interrupt
:33:43. > :33:49.you, he stopped when I told him to. He called for News Corp to withdraw
:33:49. > :33:58.the bid for BSkyB. Only after he was forced to by Ed Miliband.
:33:58. > :34:02.left for South Africa before Sir Paul Stephenson resigned. He comes
:34:02. > :34:05.back one day before to answer questions. If that isn't a Prime
:34:05. > :34:10.Minister balancing his many responsibility. Ed Miliband has
:34:10. > :34:15.nothing else to do but chase this hear, the Prime Minister has a lot
:34:15. > :34:18.to do, he has to deal with the fact that gas prices went up by 18%, and
:34:18. > :34:23.the eurozone breaking up, he has to deal with the fact that we are
:34:23. > :34:27.trying to help businesses grow by exporting with Africa. He has to
:34:27. > :34:31.deal with the fact that Nick Clegg was the most robust supporter of
:34:31. > :34:36.him not his front bench competing with Nick Clegg. He's a
:34:36. > :34:43.very good deputy Prime Minister. Where are all the other
:34:43. > :34:49.Conservative cabinet ministers conspicuous by their absence
:34:49. > :34:52.sorry for my lowly status. Michael Crick is a brilliant journalist, he
:34:52. > :34:57.can always find three of the mad and bad and usual suspects to
:34:57. > :35:00.rumble off in any subjects, whether Labour, story or Lib Dems, there is
:35:00. > :35:06.no rumbling in the Tory Party about anything other than the fact that
:35:06. > :35:11.Labour is looking this up to try to make a big bang before they all go
:35:11. > :35:16.off on their holidays. There is no good in shouting at me about this.
:35:16. > :35:21.Milly Dowler's phone was hacked. There will be a judicial inquiry.
:35:21. > :35:24.I'm feeling sympathy for Speaker Bercow. It is important that a
:35:24. > :35:28.murder victim's phone was hacked, it is important that there was a
:35:28. > :35:30.police investigation that didn't get to the bottom of hacking. It is
:35:30. > :35:33.important we have lost the Metropolitan Police commissioner,
:35:33. > :35:36.it is important that we were in days of Murdoch having the BSkyB,
:35:36. > :35:40.and it is important that the Prime Minister answers questions and
:35:40. > :35:43.comes to the House. All of that is happening. There is a judicial
:35:44. > :35:47.inquiry and the Prime Minister will make a statement and having debate
:35:47. > :35:51.on Wednesday, what more do you want. We will follow it with great
:35:52. > :35:55.interest. Last month the Obama administration said it had taken
:35:55. > :35:59.steps to ensure that civilians in Pakistan would not be hit by unmand
:35:59. > :36:02.drones the United States was using against the Taliban and Al-Qaeda.
:36:02. > :36:07.Tonight Newsnight has new evidence that this confidence is simply
:36:07. > :36:10.wrong. I'm joined by the defence editor, Mark Urban. Is part of this
:36:10. > :36:16.due to the chill in relations between Pakistan and Washington?
:36:16. > :36:19.is, it has always been a secret war, if you like, conducted by the CIA,
:36:19. > :36:23.in Pakistan, using these unmanned aircraft. If one looks at the
:36:23. > :36:28.history of it, one can see how it is ramped up. But now there are
:36:28. > :36:32.questions in the wake of the Bin Laden raid. Of course the vast
:36:32. > :36:35.majority of the raids have been carried out in the tribal areas, on
:36:35. > :36:40.the border with Afghanistan there. Over the years the numbers have
:36:40. > :36:46.gone up steadily. In the first few years of the strikes, 2004-007,
:36:46. > :36:52.there was just handful. Then we see it going up, 2010, under the Obama
:36:52. > :36:57.administration, reallyising, but a policy never really fully publicly
:36:57. > :37:01.articulated. 118 strikes last year, 45 so far this year. The Pakistanis
:37:01. > :37:08.said a couple of months ago they wanted them stopped, they ordered
:37:08. > :37:13.the CIA out of an bears in Pakistan where some of the - of a base in
:37:13. > :37:18.Pakistan where some of the strikes have been launched from. There have
:37:18. > :37:23.been a couple of dozen since then, were they done against the will of
:37:23. > :37:32.the Pakistani Government, like the Bin Laden attack. We know the
:37:32. > :37:42.Americans are intensely sensitive about it, and John Brennan's talk
:37:42. > :37:45.
:37:45. > :37:48.of allaying fears, the President's In other words, that because they
:37:48. > :37:51.have been checking no other people are in the compounds when they
:37:51. > :37:56.strike, they say no-one has been killed as a result in the past.
:37:56. > :37:59.Since all this last year. Have they delivered on that
:37:59. > :38:03.ambition, that promise? This is where the new research comes in. It
:38:03. > :38:06.is done by the Bureau of Investigative Journalismism, a non-
:38:06. > :38:16.profit organisation of journalists, who dig into this kind of thing,
:38:16. > :38:22.they have done some works on strikes carried on in 2010, when wi
:38:22. > :38:26.is when the US changed its policy. They say by their reckoning, 45
:38:26. > :38:29.people, civilians, who were not militants or key figures in the
:38:29. > :38:33.leadership of Al-Qaeda or the Taliban, were killed during that
:38:33. > :38:37.period. They are looking at a further 15 incidents, where they
:38:37. > :38:44.would estimate at least another 60 uninvolved people were killed,
:38:44. > :38:49.making well over00 casualties. Now the US has - 100 casualties. The US
:38:49. > :38:55.has respond the to the Bureau of Investigative Journalism, saying
:38:55. > :38:59.they are widely off. This is the response to that. We had feedback
:38:59. > :39:03.from the intelligence community saying, that categorically, they
:39:03. > :39:07.standby their view that absolutely no civilians have been killed in
:39:07. > :39:11.Pakistan since August 23rd last year. Yet we have named individual,
:39:11. > :39:16.named children, we have photoic evidence, we have sent researchers
:39:16. > :39:20.into the field and looked at this, we followed it up through NGOs and
:39:20. > :39:22.lawyers in Pakistan. We can't understand why they are
:39:22. > :39:32.categorically saying no civilian deaths when the evidence seems to
:39:32. > :39:34.
:39:34. > :39:38.show that. These claims are hard to back up? There is a lot of reports
:39:38. > :39:44.from the tribal areas, an exhibition of photographs from the
:39:44. > :39:52.area is opening in London. This was the 23rd of August last year, that
:39:52. > :39:56.killed circumstance civilians s - civilians, there was this boy,
:39:56. > :40:03.killed in a strike two months after that change in targeting. So the
:40:03. > :40:09.bureau's position on this, who conducted the area, they have sent
:40:09. > :40:14.researchers into the area, and looked into the family background
:40:14. > :40:17.of those supposed to be killed in this. It making it more interesting
:40:17. > :40:21.considering the fraught and tangled relationship between the US and
:40:21. > :40:27.Pakistan. Back to the main story tonight, if you could sell tickets
:40:27. > :40:32.to tomorrow's encounter between Rebekah Brooks, Rupert Murdoch and
:40:32. > :40:37.James Murdoch, you might have more takers than the Olympic games if
:40:37. > :40:42.you could sell the tickets. Our political editor Michael Crick is
:40:42. > :40:46.here to discuss the issues. Days don't get bigger than this?
:40:46. > :40:50.could go down as the most dramatic day in parliamentary history. Like
:40:50. > :40:55.day when you have a string of back- to-back football matches on
:40:55. > :40:58.television. We start off at 12.00 with Paul Stephenson, who resigned
:40:58. > :41:03.last night, with the home affairs committee, followed by John Yates
:41:03. > :41:07.at the same committee, then it switches to the Culture Committee,
:41:07. > :41:11.starting with a double header, Rupert Murdoch and his son James,
:41:11. > :41:14.followed by Rebekah Brooks. It has to be the Murdochs which will be
:41:14. > :41:19.the most interesting moment. The extraordinary thing, in 42 years of
:41:19. > :41:22.owning newspapers in this country, Rupert Murdoch has never answered
:41:22. > :41:25.questions from a Commons select committee. He has done it in
:41:25. > :41:29.America and Australia, he has even answered questions from a Lords
:41:29. > :41:34.committee, they had to go to New York to do it. The interesting
:41:34. > :41:41.thing is, in the morning the culture select commit committee
:41:41. > :41:45.will meet and decide whether they will make the Murdochs and Rebekah
:41:45. > :41:48.Brooks swear on oath. Which is unusual. If the MPs do that and the
:41:48. > :41:52.witnesses don't tell the truth or tell lies, they could be prosecuted
:41:52. > :41:55.for perjury through the courts. On the other hand, there are MPs who
:41:55. > :41:59.worry that if they do that the Murdochs and Rebekah Brooks will
:41:59. > :42:03.clam up even more than they may well do so, relying on lawyers, and
:42:03. > :42:08.the legal investigations and so on. There is so many parts to this, it
:42:08. > :42:11.is difficult to know exactly what they will focus on in their time,
:42:11. > :42:14.what sort of questions will they try to get to? The Murdoch, they
:42:14. > :42:19.have only got them there for an hour, that is the schedule. It
:42:19. > :42:23.boils down to the age-old Watergate question, what do you know and when
:42:23. > :42:27.did you know it. In particular with the Murdochs, at what point did
:42:27. > :42:31.they realise that the hacking scandal extended well beyond the
:42:31. > :42:36.single rogue reporter, which of course was the News of the World
:42:36. > :42:40.line for many years, as advanced by Les Hinton, the former boss, when
:42:40. > :42:46.he addressed the culture select committee four years ago. The other
:42:46. > :42:50.thing MPs are bound to go on to the Murdochs and Rebekah Brooks is
:42:50. > :42:53.these extraordinary settlements News of the World had with Gordon
:42:53. > :42:58.Taylor, and the Professional Footballers Association, and Max
:42:58. > :43:02.Clifford, they were paid three quarters of a million pounds in
:43:02. > :43:06.compensation and legal costs over their phone hacking. Why were such
:43:06. > :43:10.huge sums paid, and in particular, when James Murdoch admitted the
:43:10. > :43:15.other day he had agreed those payouts, what was it, he said at
:43:15. > :43:18.the time he had done so without the full facts. What facts is it he
:43:18. > :43:21.knows now about those cases. That is clearly one of the many
:43:21. > :43:25.fascinating areas they will want to probe. Great questions we look
:43:25. > :43:35.forward to the answers tomorrow. A quick look at the front pages
:43:35. > :43:35.
:43:35. > :44:58.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 83 seconds
:44:58. > :45:02.The police are examining a laptop That's all tonight, we are back
:45:02. > :45:12.with more tomorrow, with among other things all the news of the
:45:12. > :45:35.
:45:35. > :45:38.committee hearing. Worth tuning in Good evening, cloudy and damp night
:45:38. > :45:42.tonight, means a pretty grey start into tomorrow morning. Brightness
:45:42. > :45:51.develop ago I way from some western coasts and hills, that brightness
:45:51. > :45:55.will be enough to add heavy showers through the afternoon. North West
:45:55. > :45:59.England still cloudy, one or two showers, further showers in the
:45:59. > :46:05.south. But there will be well scattered, one or two spots staying
:46:05. > :46:08.dry, brightness if not sunshine inbetween. The south coast is
:46:08. > :46:12.rather cloudy across Cornwall, northern parts of Devon, the
:46:12. > :46:15.morning showers we will see here will ease a bit. South eastern
:46:15. > :46:19.parts of Wales and to the west and north a predominantly cloudy day
:46:19. > :46:23.with little in the way of brightness. Some brightness in
:46:23. > :46:28.Northern Ireland, most dry and showers in the north. To the north
:46:28. > :46:33.plenty of cloud, and there will be some outbreaks of rain, mainly
:46:33. > :46:38.light and patchy. Prospects from Tuesday into Wednesday, there won't
:46:38. > :46:41.be a huge amounts of change. Huge showers across Scotland, the
:46:41. > :46:45.heaviest in the south west. For England and Wales, the difference
:46:46. > :46:50.from Tuesday to Wednesday will be again increases of cloud with more