:00:08. > :00:14.Tonight, Norway reals from an unprecedented terrorist attack.
:00:14. > :00:18.First a car bomb, then a gunman at a youth camp kills at least ten
:00:18. > :00:23.people. Parts of Oslo now look like a war zone. Suspicion immediately
:00:23. > :00:27.fell on Al-Qaeda, now there are other theories emerging, including
:00:27. > :00:30.home-grown anarchist and far right groups. With the number of dead
:00:30. > :00:35.rising, we will speak to the Mayor of Oslo and the British Ambassador
:00:35. > :00:39.there. Also tonight, we obtain evidence of
:00:40. > :00:43.phone hacking beyond News International. We have been told by
:00:43. > :00:48.a former Sunday Mirror reporter that hacking fopbs phones was rife
:00:48. > :00:53.at that paper too. We will put that to an ex-Sunday Mirror journalist
:00:53. > :00:57.and one of the MPs leading the charge against phone hacking.
:00:57. > :01:06.Rembering Lucian Freud, through the subject of one of his most
:01:06. > :01:09.celebrated paintings. Good evenings, this has been
:01:09. > :01:13.Norway's blackest day since the Second World War. With two deadly
:01:13. > :01:16.attacks in and around Oslo in the space of a few hours. One struck at
:01:16. > :01:20.the heart of the Government area, the other, a youth camp of the
:01:20. > :01:25.governing Labour Party. By the latest count, 17 people have died,
:01:25. > :01:30.Al-Qaeda was suspected but there's also the possibility that this was
:01:30. > :01:37.the work of a neej - Norwegian extremist group. The Prime Minister
:01:37. > :01:43.there has said the gunman in custody for the second attack is a
:01:43. > :01:46.Norwegian citizen. A cry for help from outside Norway's shattered
:01:46. > :01:52.Government headquarters this afternoon. Minutes after a bomb
:01:52. > :01:58.blew the building open. Shattering the mid-summer peace of a normally
:01:58. > :02:05.quiet capital. At first all was chaos. With debris scattered all
:02:05. > :02:09.around, and reports of victims trapped amid the rubble. It was
:02:09. > :02:16.soon announced that the Prime Minister, Thorvald Stoltenberg was
:02:16. > :02:18.safe, the police say seven people lost their lives. For Norwegians
:02:18. > :02:25.completely unaccustomed to terrorism, it is inhe can
:02:25. > :02:29.publicable and deeply shocking. it is inexplicable and deeply
:02:29. > :02:34.shocking. We thought that something like this would happen one day, but
:02:34. > :02:38.not at this scale. All of Oslo could hear the tremendous blast. We
:02:38. > :02:43.thought it was lightning striking everywhere close to us. I certainly
:02:43. > :02:47.did, I thought it was lightning outside my house, but it was a
:02:47. > :02:51.massive bomb in the centre of town. The people walking around in town
:02:51. > :02:58.now looking at the bomb damages, these are houses we have seen all
:02:58. > :03:02.our life, now the windows are gone and they are damaged. It is
:03:02. > :03:07.shocking, something like this, happening here, in Oslo, no, no, it
:03:07. > :03:11.is not supposed to be possible. News of more horror followed
:03:11. > :03:17.shortly afterwards, from the even more unlikely setting of an island
:03:17. > :03:21.in a lake near Oslo. Here were Norway's governing Labour
:03:21. > :03:26.Party was holding its annual youth conference, a gunman, who has now
:03:26. > :03:31.been arrested, opened fire with an automatic weapon. At the same time
:03:31. > :03:33.there is coming really strange reports from this youth camp that
:03:33. > :03:41.the shooter there, he was talking Norwegian, and he had blonde hair,
:03:41. > :03:43.and he looks like a Scandinavian, and what is this, we really don't
:03:43. > :03:47.understand what is happening? We always thought if somebody would
:03:47. > :03:50.take us, it would be a foreign terrorist group. And if there is
:03:50. > :03:54.Norwegians involved in this, it is very, very difficult to understand
:03:54. > :03:59.what is actually happening. And also the violence of it, what is
:03:59. > :04:03.happening in this youth camp. This execution-style killings. There
:04:03. > :04:09.were Twitter reports of terrified teenagers hiding in bushes, and
:04:09. > :04:15.attempting to swim to safety. But police now say nine or ten were
:04:15. > :04:19.killed. So far, though, there is no clear theory about who might be to
:04:19. > :04:22.blame. The three possibilities are some kind of far right group in
:04:22. > :04:26.Norway, which is possible, but there is a very large device in the
:04:26. > :04:30.centre of Oslo, some kind of Islamist group, again it is
:04:30. > :04:33.feasible, but really coming very much out of the blue. Or just
:04:33. > :04:37.possibly a Libyan connection. The point about the Libyan connection
:04:37. > :04:41.is Gaddafi claimed three weeks ago he would strike at NATO targets,
:04:41. > :04:48.but this double attack on the youth group as well as on the centre of
:04:48. > :04:51.Oslo rather rules that out. This is why we're really in the realms of
:04:51. > :04:55.speculation at a very difficult time for the Norwegians.
:04:55. > :04:59.shooting on the island, where the Prime Minister was due to speak
:04:59. > :05:04.tomorrow, lends some credence to the idea that the attacks may have
:05:04. > :05:08.had their origin in Norwegian domestic politics. Others think
:05:08. > :05:12.Islamist militancy is more likely. Last year three Muslim immigrants
:05:12. > :05:16.to nor way, supposedly with links to Al-Qaeda, were arrested for
:05:16. > :05:21.allegedly planning a terrorist operation. But there's no evidence
:05:21. > :05:25.yet, that today's attacks did have an Islamist origin. Only
:05:25. > :05:29.suggestions of possible motives. Norway may have been targeted
:05:29. > :05:33.because, besides its participation in the air operation in Libya, it
:05:33. > :05:37.also has a small contingent of troops in Afghanistan. Or there may
:05:37. > :05:41.still be anger that a Norwegian newspaper reprinted several years
:05:41. > :05:47.ago, cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed, originally published in
:05:47. > :05:52.Denmark. Or the attacks may be linked to plans to prosecute this
:05:52. > :05:56.man, an Islamist activist of Iraqi Kurdish origin, accused of
:05:56. > :06:00.threatening to kill Norwegian politicians. So far there are no
:06:00. > :06:05.answers. Beyond a confirmation that the gunman on the island was
:06:05. > :06:12.Norwegian. That points back perhaps to a domestic motive. But the
:06:13. > :06:18.priority in Oslo tonight is to calm people's fears. TRANSLATION: This
:06:18. > :06:28.evening, and this night, we will take care of each other. Comfort
:06:28. > :06:32.each other, talk to each other. And stand together. Tomorrow we will
:06:32. > :06:39.show the world that the Norwegian democracy will be stronger when it
:06:39. > :06:45.counts. We will find the guilty, and hold them responsible. The most
:06:45. > :06:48.important thing is to save human lives. But with such devastation in
:06:48. > :06:53.their midst, it will take many norges a long time to come to terms
:06:53. > :06:57.with - Norwegians a long time to come to terms with what's happened
:06:57. > :07:00.in their usually calm country. Our security correspondent is with
:07:00. > :07:04.me now. Where is the finger of suspicion pointing right now, with
:07:04. > :07:08.all the new information that has been emerging? It has shifted
:07:08. > :07:11.through the day. Initially when it was the car bomb, outside
:07:11. > :07:14.Government office, that looked like Al-Qaeda, that was the suspicion,
:07:14. > :07:19.that this might be because of troops in Afghanistan, or one of
:07:19. > :07:23.the other reasons we heard about. But then the shooting at Utoeya
:07:23. > :07:27.began to ING chat picture a little bit. Shooting people is something
:07:27. > :07:32.we saw in the Mumbai attack, this looked like an unusual place to go
:07:32. > :07:39.to shoot people, at a political youth rally. It wasn't a typical
:07:39. > :07:44.search for a simple mass casualty target, you would normally see from
:07:44. > :07:48.Al-Qaeda much that was the first suggestion that it was something
:07:48. > :07:52.different. The person looked Nordic, we had confirmation that the person
:07:52. > :07:57.arrested was Norwegian, and there is a link between the events. He
:07:57. > :08:01.was seen in Oslo earlier, he's probably behind both events. That
:08:01. > :08:04.has shifted the focus towards some kind of person with a political
:08:04. > :08:08.grievance. Some kind of domestic extremist, who targeted first the
:08:08. > :08:11.Prime Minister's office, and then a political youth camp from the Prime
:08:11. > :08:15.Minister's party. That is very much more where the focus is going.
:08:15. > :08:18.Officials are still saying they don't want to speculate and say
:08:18. > :08:24.definitively what they think was behind the take. Which means at the
:08:24. > :08:28.moment there is still plenty of different theories in answer to the
:08:28. > :08:32.question of why Norway? Those theories are still in play, a
:08:32. > :08:36.Norwegian who might have been radicalised, that's why you can't
:08:36. > :08:41.rule out an Al-Qaeda link theory. But the balance has rifted towards
:08:41. > :08:44.some kind of agrieved individual. But the question is an individual
:08:44. > :08:50.by themselves capable of this, this is a big car bomb. It is not always
:08:50. > :08:58.easy to build the car bombs. Even with gos sick extremism, like the
:08:58. > :09:01.Oklahoma City bomb, Timothy McVeigh had helpers. There will be
:09:01. > :09:06.questions about who else was involved and are they still at
:09:06. > :09:12.large. We go life now to Oslo, joining us on videophone is the
:09:12. > :09:20.British Ambassador to nor way. On the phone we're joined by the Mayor
:09:20. > :09:24.of Oslo. Mayor, do you believe this is the
:09:24. > :09:29.work of a single person? I'm not sure what I believe, it has been a
:09:29. > :09:34.terrible day, today we have had a lot of people living in London, New
:09:34. > :09:39.York and other places has been through this kind of situations
:09:39. > :09:44.before us. And update us if you will on what has emerged, in terms
:09:44. > :09:50.of how many people have died and where the police inquiries are
:09:51. > :10:00.pointing at this time? The good thing is the situation seems to be
:10:00. > :10:06.under control now. We have lost a lot of people and a lot of people
:10:06. > :10:10.are injured, it is terrible. It is unacceptable that someone can treat
:10:10. > :10:14.other people that way. Ambassador, you heard it, didn't you, you heard
:10:15. > :10:19.the explosion? Yes, I did indeed, I was in the embassy building at the
:10:19. > :10:23.time, it was at about 3.30, when everyone was still at work.
:10:23. > :10:28.Although the embassy building is about three miles away from the
:10:28. > :10:31.down town area where the bomb exploded, the whole house shook and
:10:31. > :10:38.there was a huge noise, in fact I thought maybe it was an explosion
:10:38. > :10:43.in the basement, a bass pipe or something. It really was a very
:10:43. > :10:47.sizeable blast. What did it make you think of first of all, your
:10:47. > :10:50.first instincts? I wondered if a huge ferry had crashed into the
:10:50. > :10:53.harbour or something. There was maybe some problem with
:10:53. > :10:58.construction works. It was very difficult to know. And I'm sure
:10:58. > :11:01.that a lot of people in Oslo would have thought that their first
:11:01. > :11:06.reaction would not be that it could be a terrorist, because we have
:11:06. > :11:10.just not seen this kind of incident in Oslo ever before. I think it is
:11:10. > :11:16.a real watershed for Norway and our hearts and thoughts really do go
:11:16. > :11:20.out to all the people of Norway and the Government in the midst of this
:11:20. > :11:25.dreadful tragedy. Why do you think Norway would have been targeted in
:11:25. > :11:30.this way? Well, it is very hard to say, isn't it, we don't yet have
:11:30. > :11:37.clarity as to what the motives were, or who was involved and I think we
:11:37. > :11:41.need to get more information on the ground about that. But it's clear
:11:41. > :11:45.that in Norway as well as the UK and other capitals around the world,
:11:45. > :11:50.we do need to continue to be extra vigilent about terrorists from all
:11:50. > :11:54.quarters. So you weren't aware of any specific threat to Norway?
:11:54. > :11:57.I mean we have regular dialogue with Norway as with many other
:11:57. > :12:00.countries, and a close co-operation with the police and other Security
:12:00. > :12:05.Services about the risk of terrorism, and the Norwegian
:12:05. > :12:10.Government are well aware about those risks and have been works
:12:10. > :12:13.very hard on that preparedness. As many people have said it is always
:12:13. > :12:16.different when you have the attack on the ground and you can't quite
:12:16. > :12:21.prepare yourself for the horror and difficulty of what Norway has had
:12:21. > :12:25.to go through today. Mayor, how much in your mind changes with this
:12:25. > :12:33.information that's now emerged, that the suspect in the custody of
:12:33. > :12:37.the police is a Norwegian citizen? Whether it is a terrorist or some
:12:37. > :12:42.other crazy person who has done this, the most important thing is
:12:42. > :12:51.we stay together, and we don't give up and we see that the people of
:12:51. > :12:56.the world need each other, and it is important to try to stop this
:12:56. > :13:04.kind of action. But there have been difficulties, haven't there, with
:13:04. > :13:09.extremist groups at home in Norway, whether they be neo-Nazis or
:13:09. > :13:19.anarchists? Not that much. I think this is, I don't know yet, but this
:13:19. > :13:19.
:13:19. > :13:23.is probably a crazy man, and it is difficult to protect society from
:13:23. > :13:26.crazy people. The good thing is the police and the rescue teams were
:13:26. > :13:30.well prepared and they did fantastic job today.
:13:30. > :13:34.Ambassador, the mayor thinks most likely a crazy man, but certainly a
:13:34. > :13:38.man with a huge amount of resources, large amounts of explosives, do you
:13:38. > :13:43.think that the possibility that it is most likely a crazy man is cred
:13:43. > :13:46.snbl I don't know, I don't think that it is right to speculate at
:13:46. > :13:51.this stage. I know the police and Security Services here are working
:13:51. > :13:58.extremely hard to find out more information, they do have the
:13:58. > :14:02.suspect, who they have apprehended, from the shootings on the island,
:14:02. > :14:07.I'm sure they will find out more information from him. It does bring
:14:07. > :14:11.home to all of us the ambient danger that exists in all of our
:14:11. > :14:18.cities around people who want to do harm, and that is something that we
:14:18. > :14:22.all need to work together very closely to combat.
:14:22. > :14:25.Thanks to you both. We will return to the story later on in the
:14:26. > :14:28.programme. There have been plenty of hints and
:14:28. > :14:32.allegations of phone hacking beyond News International, but little more
:14:32. > :14:37.than that. Tonight, though, Newsnight can reveal evidence that
:14:37. > :14:47.it was also a routine practice at the Sunday Mirror, part of the
:14:47. > :14:52.relentless quest for salacious celebrity gossip.
:14:52. > :14:55.Celebrity scoop, life blood of the tabloids, drugs, surgery and sex.
:14:55. > :15:00.Private lives dished and served for the millions, the engine driving
:15:00. > :15:05.the phone hacking scandal. Day after day, News International's
:15:05. > :15:09.reputation has been dragged through the mud, with fresh evidence about
:15:09. > :15:13.phone hacking. The phone hacking and other dubious activities had
:15:13. > :15:15.not been the sole preserve of the Murdoch group. Tonight we throw the
:15:16. > :15:19.net far wider with evidence that another major newspaper group has
:15:19. > :15:25.been involved. Our primary source is someone who
:15:25. > :15:30.worked at the Sunday Mirror for several years. We're told our
:15:30. > :15:40.informant witnessed routine phone hacking in the newsroom. And
:15:40. > :15:48.
:15:48. > :15:52.remembers one high-profile target We have spoken to two other sources
:15:52. > :15:57.who helped coroborate our story. They both say private detectives
:15:57. > :16:00.were used and phones were hacked. Our primary source who used to work
:16:00. > :16:04.at the Sunday Mirror, said these techniques were routine. A few
:16:04. > :16:08.people on the news desk and designated reporters would do it
:16:08. > :16:13.pretty much every day. One reporter, very good at it, was called The
:16:13. > :16:18.Master Of Dark Arts. At one point in 2004t seemed the only way people
:16:18. > :16:23.were getting scoops. If they didn't randomly hack people in the news,
:16:23. > :16:27.they would use it to stand up stories people denied. We were told
:16:27. > :16:37.the technique was used against numerous celeb tee, in a drive to
:16:37. > :16:47.
:16:47. > :16:51.beat the News of the World at its We're told they also employed
:16:51. > :16:56.someone to obtain confidential records by tricking the targets
:16:56. > :16:59.over the phone. I was told he successfully managed to get
:16:59. > :17:02.hospital records. He could pretend to be famous people, or failing
:17:02. > :17:09.that he could pretend to be their lawyer or someone related to them.
:17:09. > :17:13.I was told he had got Leslie Ash's medical records, through the dark
:17:13. > :17:18.arts. In truth, journalists have sailed
:17:18. > :17:22.close to the wind for many decades. The classic things we got up to in
:17:22. > :17:27.the 1980s was paying policemen, following people. Bugging people's
:17:27. > :17:31.houses. I personally bugged a prison officer's house, who was,
:17:31. > :17:35.incidently breaking the law, and we were able to prove it through that
:17:35. > :17:38.operation. There's no doubt in my mind, that if I was still a
:17:38. > :17:45.journalist, I would have had no choice but to use the technology
:17:45. > :17:49.available, that means phone hacking. It doesn't mean that I would have
:17:49. > :17:54.happily sit back and hacked into a phone of a murder victim. But I
:17:54. > :18:00.would have seen politicians and showbiz people as fair game.
:18:00. > :18:03.journalists were hacking phones, did the management know. Celebrity
:18:03. > :18:06.interviewer Piers Morgan, was editor at the time our source was
:18:06. > :18:12.working at the Sunday Mirror. Under the cloak of parliamentary
:18:12. > :18:20.privilege earlier in the week, one journalist alleged Mr Morgan had
:18:20. > :18:25.hacked phones, something he angrily denied on CNN He refuse to, deshe
:18:25. > :18:28.is not covered by privileged, she came out with an absolute blatant
:18:28. > :18:32.lie during those proceedings. At no stage in my book or outside of my
:18:32. > :18:36.book have I ever boasted of using phone hacking for any stories, for
:18:36. > :18:40.the record n my time at the Mirror and the News of the World, I have
:18:40. > :18:43.never hacked a phone, told anybody to hack a phone, or published any
:18:43. > :18:46.story based on the hacking of a phone.
:18:46. > :18:56.We asked the publisher of the Sunday Mirror to comment about our
:18:56. > :18:58.
:18:58. > :19:02.source's evidence tonight. A There was no doubt that the use of
:19:02. > :19:05.dubious technique was not confined to the Murdoch group alone. Our
:19:05. > :19:10.evidence represents the first chink in the armour of other newspaper
:19:10. > :19:14.groups and publisher, who will be viewing the forth coming hacking
:19:14. > :19:24.inquiries with some trepidation. With me now two of the people you
:19:24. > :19:25.
:19:25. > :19:30.saw in that report, Louise Mensch, a member of the committee, and a
:19:30. > :19:36.former tabloid journalist for the Mirror, you are not the source, I
:19:36. > :19:40.should mention. We will go on to the Piers Morgan spat earlier in
:19:40. > :19:44.the week. You have talked about a wider culture of phone hacking on
:19:44. > :19:47.Fleet Street, what do you make of what we have found? It doesn't
:19:47. > :19:50.surprise me. I know the BBC is respected around the world, and
:19:50. > :19:54.wouldn't run the story tonight unless they were absolutely sure of
:19:54. > :19:58.the source and wouldn't run it frivolously. I hope news
:19:58. > :20:02.organisations like CNN in America will take very careful note of this.
:20:02. > :20:05.As a member of the culture select committee, what will it mean you do
:20:05. > :20:08.next, are you yourselves going to call more people to account, as you
:20:08. > :20:13.did the Murdochs? The Murdochs were called to the select committee
:20:13. > :20:17.because there were questions over testimony that News International
:20:17. > :20:22.executives have formally given to the committee. It wasn't a general
:20:22. > :20:26.inquiry but to ask them about testimony to give to the previous
:20:26. > :20:31.committee which proved not true. The committee conduct add report
:20:31. > :20:34.into this in 2003 - conducted a report into this in 2003. I
:20:34. > :20:39.wouldn't be surprised in the autumn if we take a deeper look at this.
:20:39. > :20:42.Will you call and push for this? make collective decisions on the
:20:42. > :20:46.select committee, I can't and don't want to pretend to speak for the
:20:46. > :20:49.committee. It is clearly something I have taken a lively interest in.
:20:49. > :20:52.Whilst there is no doubt at all that the Murdoch papers have
:20:52. > :20:57.enormously serious questions to answer, many of which we posed to
:20:57. > :21:01.them last Tuesday, it is, as your report says, there is no doubt this
:21:01. > :21:05.goes on in other newsrooms. The big news of the week that hasn't been
:21:05. > :21:10.much reported across the press, who I believe are scared of the widen
:21:10. > :21:15.of the investigation. Is the files from operation MoT, and the
:21:15. > :21:19.information report "What Price Privacy", which detail illegal and
:21:19. > :21:21.legal transactions with private investigator, some with invoices
:21:21. > :21:24.naming journalists, have been passed to the police, bringing
:21:24. > :21:29.other newspaper groups into the frame for the first time. We have
:21:29. > :21:32.had an idea of what your tabloid career has been like, does any of
:21:32. > :21:36.what we have discovered tonight in terms of the Sunday Mirror surprise
:21:36. > :21:43.you? It doesn't surprise me. I think we need to make a point here,
:21:43. > :21:48.private detectives are used by the BBC, ITV, everybody uses them. In a
:21:48. > :21:52.way I understand where Louis is coming from, but where will we -
:21:52. > :21:56.Louis is coming from, where will we draw the line. You have somebody
:21:56. > :22:01.from the Sunday Mirror saying this and that the other, but the phone
:22:01. > :22:04.hacking is after my time f the technology had existed, I have no
:22:04. > :22:08.doubt I would have used it, just like everybody else. Had any
:22:08. > :22:12.compunction about it at the time? would have had great compunction
:22:12. > :22:17.about doing anything when it came to murder victims or things like.
:22:17. > :22:21.That but politicians and certain celebrities would have been fair
:22:21. > :22:24.game. That's sort of irrelevant now because I was never part of that.
:22:24. > :22:27.But what's more important is, number one, everyone's using
:22:27. > :22:34.private detectives, number two, policemen have been paid all along,
:22:34. > :22:39.and number three, what is the problem Louise has got with Piers
:22:39. > :22:43.Morgan. I don't get it. We should focus on illegal activity, phone
:22:43. > :22:49.hacking, we have found not just that journalists would do this when
:22:49. > :22:53.there is a certain suspicion, but on a fishing expedition, listening
:22:53. > :22:58.to Liz Hurley's voicemail and listening to lunch plans? This is
:22:58. > :23:00.interesting and relevant, I work with a lot of the journalists
:23:00. > :23:04.supposedly under suspicion at the moment. They were fantastic
:23:04. > :23:07.journalists in the 1980s when it was competitive, and circulations
:23:07. > :23:10.were high, and profits were high, and a lot of money around for the
:23:10. > :23:15.stories. What appears to have happened is the technology came in
:23:15. > :23:20.and it went to their heads. It appears that way. They ended up
:23:20. > :23:26.literally not having to leave the office to get fantastic story. It
:23:26. > :23:31.was too easy. I can't speak for individuals but that is my
:23:31. > :23:34.perspective. Piers Morgan, was it blatant lie what you said in
:23:34. > :23:37.parliament? As I said, the parliamentary privilege is there
:23:37. > :23:46.for a reason T allows members of the parliament to raise issues
:23:46. > :23:50.which might cause them to be sued outside of parliament. If there are
:23:50. > :23:53.anacrocies said under parliamentary privilege, they can be removed
:23:53. > :23:56.through parliamentary privilege, I don't want to go further. Let's
:23:56. > :24:02.stick to the specific point, because it is important, you talked
:24:02. > :24:06.about raising inaccurate things under parliamentary privilege. We
:24:06. > :24:11.and many other people look at the quotes you referred to, and there
:24:11. > :24:14.is no suggestion he boasted about using phone hacking? As I have said
:24:14. > :24:22.corrections have to be made under parliamentary privilege, I can't
:24:22. > :24:29.get into it on Newsnight. Perhaps you mean to make a connection
:24:29. > :24:32.somewhere else? Can I ask now, you have a huge downer on Piers, who
:24:32. > :24:39.happened to work for the Mail on Sunday, and who happened to give
:24:39. > :24:44.you a hard time in a story a few weeks ago. I rest my case. Why are
:24:44. > :24:49.you raising it if you don't? have an obsession with Mr Morgan,
:24:49. > :24:53.he didn't say that stuff, you were wrong, you used parliamentary
:24:53. > :24:58.privilege. You were turned over for writing a novel in the Mail on
:24:58. > :25:04.Sunday, which they alleged was based on a true event. I had no
:25:05. > :25:09.idea that Mr Morgan worked in the Mail. He did. He works Assawi a
:25:09. > :25:13.columnist on the Mail. Is there something personal that led to you
:25:13. > :25:17.pointing the fringeer in that way? It is the Mirror Group and
:25:17. > :25:20.associated newspapers who I went on about in some depth in my question.
:25:20. > :25:26.The question is not what happened in a book, the question is what
:25:26. > :25:30.happened under the editorship, at the time of the person concerned in
:25:30. > :25:33.the Mirror Group newspapers and the Associated Newspaper, and the
:25:33. > :25:38.questions raised as to whether or not this is wider than the murd mur
:25:38. > :25:42.press. Are you going to have - Murdoch press. Are you going to
:25:42. > :25:48.look at the BBC and ITV to see if they have employed private
:25:48. > :25:53.detectives, most have. We are not talking about Inspector Morse, the
:25:53. > :25:58.files in Operation Motorman look at hacking into people's personal
:25:58. > :26:03.phones and addresss and medical records. The BBC are not raised in
:26:03. > :26:08.Operation Motorman. The reason I raised the other names, the Mirror
:26:09. > :26:13.Group, is they are named in the Operation Motorman files. Is it
:26:13. > :26:19.time for them to open up their books? Everybody should open up
:26:19. > :26:23.their books, because they are as guilty as each other. The ones with
:26:23. > :26:27.alleged illegal activity should be the ones to take the first steps?
:26:27. > :26:34.think everybody has. If you dig harder. You would accuse the entire
:26:34. > :26:38.press of it? Everybody at some stage. Hacking I can't speak for
:26:38. > :26:41.personally. But I'm sure versions of that have been used by the very
:26:41. > :26:45.private detectives hired by everybody. I watched a documentary
:26:45. > :26:50.on television the other day and I heard the voice of a guy who was a
:26:50. > :26:56.conman, he has been jailed and he was being used as a journalist by
:26:56. > :27:02.somebody on that programme. I point somebody out the statement from
:27:02. > :27:05.Trinity Mirror you quoted there used the present tense, our
:27:05. > :27:14.journalists work within the code, in answer to the question did it
:27:14. > :27:19.happen to in the past under certain editorships, haven't been responded
:27:19. > :27:21.to, the response was "they work within the Escoda", so it is
:27:21. > :27:26.whether they have always worked within the code.
:27:26. > :27:32.We have to leave it there. He was painting until the day he
:27:32. > :27:36.died, the tributes to Lucian Freud, make no doubts to the statement of
:27:36. > :27:41.greatest British artist. He famously said he painted what he
:27:41. > :27:46.saw, not what we wanted him to see. Many wouldn't have been flattered
:27:46. > :27:56.by the result who sat for him, but they would have felt privileged to
:27:56. > :28:06.
:28:06. > :28:10.I do start most self-portraits and destroy more than any other picture,
:28:10. > :28:15.because they seem to, in my case, they seem to go wrong so very, very
:28:15. > :28:20.often. I haven't found a way of doing them, not that I have found a
:28:20. > :28:30.way of doing anything, but I feel that they should become easier and
:28:30. > :28:35.they don't. He wasn't overfond of his self-portrait, and certainly
:28:35. > :28:37.not of having his likeness captured on camera. This is from one of the
:28:37. > :28:42.very few occasions when Lucian Freud agreed to be filmed. What he
:28:42. > :28:50.really liked was looking at other people. Hard, for hours and hours.
:28:50. > :28:54.Painting real people as they really were. To him. With models they
:28:54. > :28:58.would have an idea about posing in itself, which is exactly what I'm
:28:58. > :29:01.trying not to do, I want them to be themselves. I don't want to use
:29:01. > :29:09.them for an idea I have got, where I must use a figure, let's have
:29:09. > :29:19.that one. I actually want to do them. I never think about technique
:29:19. > :29:19.
:29:19. > :29:25.in anything. I think it holds you up. You have to paint on trust.
:29:25. > :29:29.One of Freud's non-models was Sue Tilley, who posed for his Benefits
:29:29. > :29:34.Supervisor Sleeping. Which fetched more than �17 million. I went to
:29:34. > :29:39.meet Sue this afternoon, at a cafe where Freud entertained many of his
:29:39. > :29:45.sitters to lunch, or take away treats. What do you think he saw in
:29:45. > :29:50.you, what traicted him to you as a painter? - attracted him to you as
:29:50. > :29:54.a painter? I was very puct actual, very reliable. I know that sounds
:29:54. > :30:00.ridiculous, but that is what he demanded most. People think it must
:30:00. > :30:10.have been fantastic, I ran in there and went hi there and let's make
:30:10. > :30:12.
:30:12. > :30:17.the most expensive painting in the world. We would have a chat and
:30:17. > :30:21.that was t he always showed me when he was in the papers. He was always
:30:21. > :30:25.excited when he met someone famous. Like Kylie Minogue. You wouldn't
:30:25. > :30:29.think he would know about all modern things. He was desperate to
:30:29. > :30:34.get Kate Moss to model for him. He said she was the biggest party girl
:30:34. > :30:41.he had ever met. To hear Lucian Freud tell it, though, you would
:30:41. > :30:50.think he led the life of a monk. I try to keep as calm as I can
:30:50. > :30:53.always. I'm always on the occasions that things go well, I try to
:30:53. > :31:00.recreate circumstances, similar ones, hoping the result will be
:31:00. > :31:05.similar, but it doesn't, of course work. But I even think of what I
:31:05. > :31:09.have eaten, or haven't. People speak about Freud, they always talk
:31:09. > :31:14.about the eagle-like eyes. That was the secret of his brilliance. He
:31:14. > :31:18.just looked harder than anyone had ever looked at things before, he
:31:18. > :31:22.saw things no-one saw before. Freud's gaze was such a
:31:22. > :31:27.democratising instrument in that sense. Whether it was Kate Moss,
:31:27. > :31:33.the Queen, a benefit supervisor, he looked at you in exactly the same
:31:33. > :31:37.way. When his own gift failed him, which wasn't often, Freud turned to
:31:37. > :31:41.other masters for instruction. to the national gallery, rather
:31:41. > :31:46.like going to a doctor for help. But if you are painting humans you
:31:46. > :31:51.have the best subject matter in the world. That's all from Newsnight
:31:51. > :31:59.tonight. Jeremy is back with more on Monday, when Peter Mandelson
:31:59. > :32:07.will be present a mea culpa of will be present a mea culpa of
:32:07. > :32:10.sorts. From all of us goodnight. Good evening. Some pretty lively
:32:10. > :32:13.showers through the night to the south-east and East Anglia. Easing
:32:13. > :32:19.away on Saturday morning, bright and chilly start elsewhere. Colder
:32:19. > :32:22.through the day along the eastern coasts. For North West England,
:32:22. > :32:29.also the west Midland should be dry and sunny. Patchy cloud through
:32:29. > :32:34.inland areas, one or two showers, always cloudier towards the coast.
:32:34. > :32:37.One or two showers across central southern England. Very well
:32:37. > :32:40.scattered, much lighter than seen this week. Through Wales. We are
:32:40. > :32:45.closer to a ridge of high pressure, things will be not only dry but
:32:45. > :32:49.sunnier, and also warmer, feeling the full benefit out of the breeze
:32:49. > :32:55.of the strong July sunshine. Warm across Northern Ireland. Cooler
:32:55. > :33:00.towards the north coast, thanks to the breeze coming off the sea. A
:33:00. > :33:04.strong breeze across Scotland. Cool on the eastern coast. Central and
:33:04. > :33:10.south western Scotland 21 in the spells.
:33:10. > :33:14.Saturday even a few outbreaks of rain in the east coast. Linked into
:33:14. > :33:19.the same system bringing showers into Paris, clearing away. If you
:33:19. > :33:24.are heading to the Mediterranean, dry, sunny and warm weather, heavy