:00:08. > :00:11.Tonight, just when you think it could not possibly get any worse,
:00:11. > :00:16.further revelation about the detective hired by the News of the
:00:16. > :00:20.World. The phone number of Sara Payne, the mother of the murdered
:00:20. > :00:23.schoolgirl, was found among Glenn Mulcaire's papers, she says she's
:00:23. > :00:26.absolutely devastated to learn her phone may have been hacked. We will
:00:26. > :00:33.discuss that and the impact the scandal could have on James
:00:33. > :00:37.Murdoch's leadership of BSkyB. What's the real cost of America's
:00:37. > :00:43.debt crisis in the footsteps of John Steinbeck's The Grapes of
:00:43. > :00:47.Wrath, Paul Mason takes the trail of misery from Oklahoma to
:00:47. > :00:52.California, to find lost lands and the newly homeless middle-class.
:00:52. > :00:57.What is the hardest thing about it? Just having my kids here. America's
:00:57. > :01:03.top general is back home, David Petraeus talks to us about his
:01:03. > :01:10.hopes for Afghanistan, and shaky relations with Pakistan. Everyone
:01:10. > :01:13.is stepping back from the abyss, after looking into it. And can it
:01:13. > :01:20.really be true that watching this programme can seriously damage your
:01:20. > :01:30.love life, not everyone thinks so. Newsnight is one of the greatest
:01:30. > :01:32.
:01:32. > :01:35.aphrodisiacs, political debate, what more could a woman ask for!
:01:35. > :01:37.Good evening, at every stage of the phone hacking scandal, it seemed
:01:37. > :01:41.difficult to believe the revelations could be more shocking,
:01:41. > :01:45.but tonight, again, they may just be. After her daughter was murdered,
:01:45. > :01:49.Sara Payne, worked together with the News of the World to publicise
:01:49. > :01:52.information about paedophiles. Now, it turns out, the number of her
:01:52. > :01:56.mobile phone was discovered among the papers of the disgraced private
:01:56. > :02:00.detective, Glenn Mulcaire. We don't actually know if she was hacked, or
:02:00. > :02:05.by whom, but she says she's devastated at the thought she may
:02:05. > :02:11.have been. Even at the end, the News of the
:02:11. > :02:15.World had a few friends left. Even after the politicians, and the
:02:15. > :02:17.advertisers had deserted the title, Sara Payne was still proud to
:02:17. > :02:27.standby the paper that had fought for her cause.
:02:27. > :02:31.Sara Payne gave this tribute, having been told by the police that
:02:31. > :02:35.she was not among those suspected of having their phones hacked by
:02:35. > :02:42.the News of the World. Now that assurance has been withdrawn.
:02:42. > :02:46.People will be deeply shocked that the newspaper which was campaigning
:02:46. > :02:50.for Sarah's Law, was at the same time invading the privacy of her
:02:50. > :02:55.mother. It is unspeakable that we hear these allegations tonight.
:02:55. > :02:57.That lady has been through the trauma of what happened to her
:02:57. > :03:03.daughter, has had serious medical conditions, and thought that
:03:03. > :03:05.newspaper was on her side. Even at the depths of the phone hacking
:03:05. > :03:10.scandal, News International executives tried to keep reminding
:03:10. > :03:16.the public not to lose sight of its role in changing the law. As you
:03:16. > :03:20.know, part of the, my main focus of my editorship of the News of the
:03:20. > :03:26.World was in convincing the parliament that there needed to be
:03:26. > :03:32.radical changes to the 1997 Sex Offenders Act, which became known
:03:32. > :03:39.as Sarah's Law, which was very similar to laws imposed in America
:03:39. > :03:45.under Megan's Law. Sarah Payne was murdered in 2000. Her killer, Roy
:03:45. > :03:50.Whiting, was a known sex offender, Sarah's mother, Sara Payne
:03:50. > :03:54.campaigned for a change in the law, the News of the World helped.
:03:54. > :03:59.Parents should have, they argued, controlled access to the sex
:03:59. > :04:02.offenders' register, to find out if somebody living nearby is danger to
:04:02. > :04:12.their children. Rebekah Brooks called this law change the
:04:12. > :04:38.
:04:38. > :04:41.highlight of her tenure as editor The damaging influence that many
:04:41. > :04:45.are drawing from these allegations that the News of the World only
:04:46. > :04:51.gave the phone to Sara Payne, in order to hack it. One commentator
:04:51. > :04:54.believes we should discount this as a theory. They would have been able
:04:54. > :04:58.to hack her phone, the phone she already had any way. It is not
:04:58. > :05:01.clear what benefit they get from having a phone that only they know
:05:01. > :05:06.the number of it, if that was the case who else would leave messages,
:05:06. > :05:08.on the face of it, it doesn't really add up that is the most
:05:08. > :05:13.likely explanation. Although, if true, it is a very damaging one
:05:13. > :05:18.indeed. More likely, what this illustrate, it is a new low,
:05:18. > :05:22.certainly, the level, the appearance of disloyalty, double
:05:22. > :05:28.dealing, betrayal, even, no doubt Sara Payne feels it very deeply,
:05:28. > :05:31.that is shocking, even by gutter tabloid standards, if you like.
:05:31. > :05:37.Others believe tonight's revelations actually lend credence
:05:37. > :05:47.to Rebekah Brooks' claim not to have sanctioned phone hacking. One
:05:47. > :05:59.
:05:59. > :06:03.former senior member of the News of All that is so far alleged is that
:06:03. > :06:07.Sara Payne's phone was targeted. It is not clear that the private
:06:07. > :06:11.investigator who allegedly did this was working for the News of the
:06:11. > :06:15.World at the time, nor that, if he did try, he was successful. Tonight,
:06:15. > :06:25.the former News of the World employee, Hayley Barlow, who became
:06:25. > :06:31.
:06:31. > :06:36.very close to Sara Payne tweeted Today the far-reaching inquiry,
:06:36. > :06:40.triggered by the phone hacking scandal, had its first meeting. The
:06:40. > :06:45.panel will begin hearing evidence in September. The focus of the
:06:45. > :06:51.inquiry is the culture, practices ethics of the press, in the context
:06:51. > :06:54.of the latter's relationship with the public, the police, and
:06:54. > :07:00.politicians. All these matters overlap, and my goal must be to
:07:00. > :07:05.consider what lessons, if any, may be learned from past events, and
:07:05. > :07:10.what recommendations, if any, should be made for the future, in
:07:10. > :07:14.particular as regards press regulation, governance, and systems
:07:14. > :07:18.of oversight. It was in this man's notebooks that Sara Payne's details
:07:18. > :07:22.were allegedly found, along with those of around 4,000 other people.
:07:22. > :07:26.This evening the News of the World's private investigator, Glenn
:07:26. > :07:29.Mulcaire, was saying nothing. With fewer than 200 of the possible
:07:29. > :07:34.victims so far contacted by the police, it is a safe assumption
:07:34. > :07:37.that there are more revelations to come.
:07:37. > :07:41.More revelations indeed in just the past few minutes, breaking news,
:07:41. > :07:47.the police officer who led the investigation into the murder of
:07:47. > :07:50.Sarah Payne, has told the BBC, that he contacted officers from
:07:50. > :07:55.Operation Weeting two weeks ago to say he also could have been the
:07:55. > :07:59.victim of phone hacking. It surrounds an occasion where he was
:07:59. > :08:04.contacted by a senior news executive from News of the World,
:08:04. > :08:08.about a story that he believes was gained by listening to his messages.
:08:08. > :08:12.In yet another development today, the BSkyB board have offered their
:08:13. > :08:17.unanimous support to their chairman, James Murdoch, on the eve of the
:08:17. > :08:21.company's results being announced tomorrow, the board will keep a
:08:21. > :08:25.watching brief on external issues. Not all the shareholders are happy.
:08:25. > :08:30.What happened today? You had a meeting this afternoon of
:08:30. > :08:34.the board, it went on for a long time. What is significant is they
:08:34. > :08:38.came out of the statement saying James Murdoch had their unanimous
:08:38. > :08:44.support, more or less when the news about Sara Payne was breaking. They
:08:44. > :08:46.had a few adjustments after. We have been hearing afterwards that
:08:46. > :08:50.non-executive directors were grilling James Murdoch, he was told
:08:50. > :08:54.by one he was on probation. He was always a controversial choice,
:08:54. > :08:59.because it is a listed company, anyone can buy or sell shares in t
:08:59. > :09:04.it is not meant to be run like family business. Back in 2003,
:09:04. > :09:09.James Murdoch was a controversial choice for chief executive, when he
:09:09. > :09:13.became chairman in 2007, it was questioned could he be independent,
:09:13. > :09:16.can you really represent shareholders equally, when your dad
:09:16. > :09:23.controls 39% of the company. Sharehold hearse a gripe, as well,
:09:23. > :09:26.that they weren't quite happy with the price it was suggested to pay.
:09:26. > :09:32.They won't be as unanimous as the board was. I spoke to one
:09:32. > :09:35.shareholder from one of the smaller investment groups, he wanted to
:09:35. > :09:45.remain anonymous, but he was adamant James Murdoch should stand
:09:45. > :09:55.
:09:55. > :09:58.down. He said: Shareholders wouldn't be doing
:09:58. > :10:01.their job if they weren't thinking about the money. What will happen
:10:01. > :10:06.tomorrow? Tomorrow we will get the results and the profits. This is a
:10:06. > :10:10.highly lucrative business, it made �752 million of profits last year.
:10:10. > :10:14.This year it is expected to go up to �950 million. This business, as
:10:14. > :10:18.one shareholder told me, just throws off cash. The days peerns of
:10:18. > :10:24.the takeover bid has obviously meant - disappearance of the
:10:24. > :10:30.takeover bid means the price has headed south, they are hoping that
:10:30. > :10:33.their patience of Sky, when they invested new money into new
:10:33. > :10:36.technology, that their patience would be rewarded, there is a hope
:10:36. > :10:42.they will get a special dividend to handsome of their money back. I
:10:42. > :10:45.asked one supportive shareholder, James Bevan of CCLA investments, he
:10:45. > :10:48.manages money for churches and charities. I asked him what he
:10:48. > :10:54.really thought about whether the ethical questions were separate
:10:54. > :10:58.from the financial ones? Absolutely not, we think that corporate
:10:58. > :11:02.governance lies at the heart of long-term shareholder value, we are
:11:02. > :11:07.really very concerned that we do have a chairman, who is going to be
:11:07. > :11:12.doing the right thing, both in terms of ethic, but also in terms
:11:12. > :11:16.of the law. That said, it seems to me he has been a first rate steward
:11:16. > :11:19.of shareholder value over the years. We think that BSkyB is in an
:11:19. > :11:22.absolutely first rate position. With their thoughts on revelations
:11:23. > :11:30.from the investigation, and the news about the impact on BSkyB, I'm
:11:30. > :11:35.joined by the former chairman of the BBC, Christopher Bland, the
:11:35. > :11:40.Times editor, formerly, David Evans, and Tom Watson on the committee for
:11:40. > :11:44.investigating the crisis. This story about Sara Payne seems to be
:11:44. > :11:47.shocking, we don't know if she had her phone hacked or the details?
:11:47. > :11:51.is a new low, but yet another scandalous revelation, I do very
:11:51. > :11:56.much, my party goes out to Sara Payne tonight, she must wonder who
:11:56. > :11:59.her friends are. More importantly, what it shows is this company is
:11:59. > :12:04.still not showing any contrition. They have hired this highly
:12:04. > :12:09.expensive PR firm in London to put a statement out. There has been no
:12:09. > :12:14.apology, no acceptance of the fact that Rebekah Brooks is ultimately
:12:14. > :12:17.responsible for the culture that allowed these kind of things to
:12:17. > :12:20.happen. People who know Rebekah Brooks say, this is the last thing
:12:20. > :12:25.she would have done, she genuinely was friends with Sara Payne, she
:12:25. > :12:28.would be appalled to learn this went on? I can't speak for Rebekah
:12:28. > :12:32.Brooks and her personal relations, but she was head of the company,
:12:32. > :12:35.and she is a former editor of the newspaper. There was a culture
:12:36. > :12:40.created in that newsroom that allowed a private investigator to
:12:40. > :12:45.think it was acceptable to do this kind of thing. Unless she carries
:12:45. > :12:49.responsibility for that, and really accepts that she is, as head of the
:12:49. > :12:54.company, was responsible for setting the tone. Even if she
:12:54. > :13:01.didn't know? It is the culture that allows it to happen, not the
:13:01. > :13:11.specific items of wrongdoing. Rushocked by today's revelations
:13:11. > :13:15.
:13:15. > :13:18.that - Simon Rushocked by today's revelations? Simon, are you shocked
:13:18. > :13:23.by today's investigations. The phone was given to her by the paper
:13:23. > :13:27.and the number is in the pocket of one of the investigator, I'm not
:13:27. > :13:31.shocked. I don't think it justifies leading Newsnight, it is not a big
:13:31. > :13:35.news story, it is another sordid chapter in the every day history of
:13:35. > :13:39.News of the World. Newsnight can look after itself, it is the front
:13:39. > :13:44.page of the Times tomorrow, the Guardian, I looked at the Telegraph
:13:44. > :13:47.website, and the Mail, Times of India have been carrying the
:13:47. > :13:50.stories? I won't defend anything to do with the News of the World, it
:13:50. > :13:55.is nothing to do with me, it is a shoddy and dreadful newspaper. I'm
:13:55. > :14:00.glad it is closed. But that's gone. It is still a big story, is my
:14:00. > :14:03.point, is it not? There is danger of our profession collectively
:14:03. > :14:07.looking slightly ridiculous in the eyes of the public, we have gone on
:14:07. > :14:10.about this for three weeks now, at a time when serious stories were
:14:11. > :14:14.rattling around the world, familiar anyone in Africa, the European
:14:14. > :14:18.economy is collapsing, the American economy is collapsing, the welfare
:14:18. > :14:22.state is collapsing. There are serious news stories we have not
:14:22. > :14:26.covered properly because we have been completely obsessed with the
:14:26. > :14:30.whole business. Have we got this out of whack? For two years every
:14:30. > :14:35.media company ignored this scandal on their doorstep, I don't think it
:14:36. > :14:39.is unusual they played catch-up. The symbolism of Sara Payne herself,
:14:39. > :14:44.who led a campaign for Sarah's Law, who had the support of News
:14:44. > :14:47.International, producing leaflets and going to politician, to being
:14:47. > :14:51.given an assurance that she wasn't targeted, and then to be hold by
:14:51. > :14:55.the Metropolitan Police that her perch details are held in Glenn
:14:55. > :14:59.Mulcaire's personal files, ordinary people will be shocked.
:14:59. > :15:03.telephone number was in the file. We know nothing about this. I'm not
:15:03. > :15:07.defending T I can see that Tom is on a role here, my paper is on a
:15:07. > :15:10.role here, the BBC is on a role here, no problem with that at all.
:15:10. > :15:15.I think the professional journalism, which I care about, and has been
:15:15. > :15:19.dragged through the mud, rightly so, needs to be careful, how it reports
:15:19. > :15:23.these stories. I don't think I know that there are a lot of people out
:15:23. > :15:26.there who think we are just overdoing it. Getting on to BSkyB,
:15:26. > :15:30.you have particular concerns about that at the moment what do you make
:15:30. > :15:33.of this part of the story? I think Simon is partly right, this isn't,
:15:34. > :15:40.it doesn't add a great deal, because already we knew the phone
:15:40. > :15:47.hacking was endemic in the News of the World, this is just icing,
:15:47. > :15:51.doesn't seem the appropriate simply, but it is more of the same - simile,
:15:51. > :15:55.or worse, the key issue is today, the more important one, of what has
:15:55. > :15:59.happened at BSkyB. Where the board has unanimously voted to retain
:15:59. > :16:03.James Murdoch as chairman. shouldn't it, we heard Rupert
:16:03. > :16:06.Murdoch say clearly that the News of the World was 1% or less of his
:16:06. > :16:11.business, he does many, many other things, which he does, and BSkyB is
:16:11. > :16:15.a separate company? Well, it is not his company, but it has been
:16:15. > :16:20.treated as though it was a satellite of News Corporation, and
:16:20. > :16:26.the reason why James Murdoch should go is very simple, he's damaged
:16:26. > :16:31.goods. He has a day job in New York as deputy COO of News Corporation,
:16:31. > :16:34.and most importantly, BSkyB is a big British company, it is actually
:16:34. > :16:38.the biggest television company in the UK, it is in the FTSE 100, it
:16:38. > :16:43.is never now going to become a subsidiary of News Corporation. It
:16:43. > :16:48.needs to cut itself off from News Corp, the shareholdings should go
:16:48. > :16:52.down to 29%, and it should become a profitable and no longer a cash cow
:16:52. > :16:56.for News Corporation. But it is hugely profitable, it has been very
:16:56. > :16:59.successful, and done extremely well? Yes. That doesn't mean it
:16:59. > :17:06.should ignore all the rules of corporate governance, it shouldn't
:17:06. > :17:11.be run as a satellite of News Corporation any more. I agree. News
:17:11. > :17:15.Corp is a serious media company, it has unattractive aspects, as many
:17:15. > :17:21.media companies do. It has got rid of its worst product, News of the
:17:21. > :17:23.World, it, I think, should have been allowed to take the rest of
:17:23. > :17:27.the Sky Broadcasting shareholder, it shouldn't be run by the Murdoch
:17:27. > :17:32.family any more. Murdoch has done his bit by the world's media, and
:17:32. > :17:38.the world's media has done its bid by Rupert Murdoch. He has patently
:17:39. > :17:41.come to the point where he has to step aside. The family rightly have
:17:41. > :17:44.been castigated by what was happening at the News of the World,
:17:44. > :17:47.they knew it was going on. It was the worst of the worst. Now the
:17:47. > :17:53.time has come for what might be called for News Corp to become a
:17:53. > :18:02.proper krnings and BSkyB to be a proper company. It - company, and
:18:02. > :18:05.BSkyB to be a report company. do you think? We have had
:18:05. > :18:11.staggeringly contradictory evidence from the editor of the News of the
:18:11. > :18:15.World, and the solicitor of the axe crow moany of what James Murdoch
:18:15. > :18:19.told us at the committee last week. I think we should invite James
:18:19. > :18:24.Murdoch back along with Myler and Crone to get to the bottom of this,
:18:24. > :18:27.find the facts and parliament can move on and let the police to do
:18:27. > :18:30.their inquiry. That is the former editor of the News of the World and
:18:30. > :18:35.the chief lawyer. You want to get to the bottom of the contradiction
:18:35. > :18:40.in the evidence about who saw what, particularly one e-mail? We brought
:18:40. > :18:46.James and Rupert Murdoch in front of u we believed parliament had
:18:46. > :18:50.been misled, he gave evidence and 24 hours later two chief executives
:18:50. > :18:54.contradicted. Parliament needs to get to the facts on that and hand
:18:54. > :18:58.over to the police. Maybe need to look at other things because there
:18:58. > :19:02.are other big things on in the world? Parliament has known this
:19:02. > :19:06.stuff is going on since 2003. I don't know any committee inquiring
:19:06. > :19:10.into the press didn't know that the press was being illegally intrusive
:19:10. > :19:13.in all sorts of ways. There is no defence for it at all, there are
:19:14. > :19:17.much more important issues about press ownership and regulation than
:19:17. > :19:21.this. Final thought. Do you see the shareholders getting very anxious
:19:21. > :19:27.about this, given that the financial side of it is going very
:19:27. > :19:36.well? Well, shareholders are a sue pine lot, but they should get very
:19:36. > :19:40.anxious and make a change. It should be a change financially and
:19:40. > :19:43.as well as governance changes, better for BSkyB. It would be a
:19:43. > :19:48.better organisation if it was genuinely independent of News Corp.
:19:48. > :19:51.Thank you very much. On Capitol Hill tonight, politicians of both
:19:51. > :19:55.parties are posturing over how to cut America's debt. While they
:19:55. > :19:58.fiddle around, in the real America they are struggling with the
:19:58. > :20:04.hardest times many Americans have ever seen, and a sense something
:20:04. > :20:09.terrible has gone wrong in the supposedly most powerful country on
:20:09. > :20:15.earth. In The Grapes of Wrath, John Steinbeck wrote about a family
:20:15. > :20:25.uprooting and hoping find work in California. Paul Mason has retraced
:20:25. > :20:27.
:20:27. > :20:32.the journey. To the red country and part of the
:20:32. > :20:41.grey country of Oklahoma, the last rains came gently, and they did not
:20:41. > :20:45.cut the scarred earth. So begins Steinbeck's novel, The
:20:46. > :20:51.Grapes of Wrath. The events it describes happened 80 years ago,
:20:51. > :20:57.but today, once again, America is in the grip of unemployment and
:20:57. > :21:06.Oklahoma in the grip of drought. I'm about to retrace the journey
:21:06. > :21:11.Steinbeck describes. At the cattle market in El Reno, business is
:21:11. > :21:15.brisk, but for the wrong reasons. Farmers are bringing their cows to
:21:15. > :21:23.market because the drought, worse than any for 60 years leaves them
:21:23. > :21:33.with no option. To operate my operation, I need
:21:33. > :21:34.
:21:34. > :21:41.$400,000. A year? To keep it flowing. Credit? Yes. Brett farms
:21:41. > :21:47.this land, but cotton, brief, it is all failing. I had to sell the
:21:47. > :21:51.calves earlier than I normally do. Last week I sold half my momma cows.
:21:51. > :21:55.Does it make you feel like giving up? A lot of nights I don't get
:21:55. > :22:00.sleep and I stay up worrying about how will I stretch this out, how
:22:00. > :22:08.will I make this work. But, I believe in the Lord, and he will
:22:08. > :22:14.get us through it. At the cattle market, prices are
:22:14. > :22:17.falling, but, unlike in the 1930s, the whole farming system is
:22:17. > :22:21.underwritten with Government supsidies and loan, but now, even
:22:22. > :22:28.that is under threat, as America moves to cut federal spending. So,
:22:28. > :22:33.at knockdown price, they are selling their future.
:22:33. > :22:43.In the 1930s, tens of thousands left this land and set off west for
:22:43. > :22:49.California. The experience still haunts the landscape. The old route
:22:49. > :22:56.west, root 66, has been replaced by interstate 40. But 66 is still
:22:56. > :23:01.there, just at the side. In Steinbeck, the family make this
:23:01. > :23:05.journey into a world of conflict, rootlessness, prejudice and there
:23:05. > :23:09.is plenty of that today. What there is not today, and there was then,
:23:09. > :23:14.is general agreement about the direction of American economic
:23:14. > :23:24.policy. Because then, the state was set to play a larger part in crisis
:23:24. > :23:25.
:23:25. > :23:28.resolution. And now, it is set to shrink.
:23:28. > :23:34.The journey through Texas and New Mexico, takes you into a whole
:23:34. > :23:38.different landscape. Today it is normal for Americans to
:23:38. > :23:46.move home to look for work, the rootlessness that shocked Steinbeck,
:23:46. > :23:55.is almost a way of life. As a result, amid the desert, boom towns,
:23:55. > :23:58.and boom suburbs, that have now turned to bust. The families
:23:58. > :24:02.learned what rights have been observed, the right of privacy in
:24:02. > :24:08.the tent, the right to keep the past, black, hidden in the heart,
:24:08. > :24:14.the right to talk and listen. That is how Steinbeck describes the
:24:14. > :24:18.camp for homeless migrants that the family turned up in. Joy Junction
:24:18. > :24:21.is a modern shelter for the homeless. Normally the families who
:24:21. > :24:30.come here are coping with drink, drugs, domestic violence, but now
:24:30. > :24:35.there is a new kind of customer, the American middle-class. Mime'
:24:35. > :24:40.Larry Antista, this is my daughter Michelle, we are here - I'm Larry
:24:40. > :24:45.Antista, we are here for the economic times, my spouse took off
:24:45. > :24:51.on us, and that cut our income in half, and we lost our house and
:24:51. > :24:59.here we are.'S A struck driver, and he can't work, he works for his
:24:59. > :25:04.welfare payments $300 a month. His daughter, Michelle, is still at
:25:04. > :25:09.school. Do the people at school know where you live? No. They don't
:25:09. > :25:14.ask I don't tell them. You don't show up as homeless, even in the
:25:14. > :25:17.school statistics? No. The sort of rich of America, really, the media,
:25:17. > :25:22.do they understand that every night thousands of people are bedding
:25:22. > :25:26.down like this? No. No. What would you say to them if you could speak
:25:26. > :25:32.to them? If they could live one day of our lives they would see how
:25:32. > :25:36.hard it is. And how good they have it. Because loot of them complain
:25:36. > :25:41.about what they have got which is really dumb. This man was, not long
:25:41. > :25:46.ago, the manager of a vehicle fleet. They lived in a moat tell, but his
:25:46. > :25:51.unemployment money ran out. know when you lose a secure job,
:25:51. > :25:54.and you have to downgrade, you have to downgrade your lifestyle,
:25:54. > :25:58.sometimes the bills start racking up, you only get further behind,
:25:59. > :26:03.after that it catches up and then you start losing stuff. Cars start
:26:03. > :26:12.getting took, can't pay your note, you end up here. Can I ask you how
:26:12. > :26:15.it is for you to cope with all of this? It is stressful. What's the
:26:15. > :26:23.toughest thing, you have been here how many nights? We are on our
:26:23. > :26:33.second week. What's the hardest thing about it? Well, just having
:26:33. > :26:35.
:26:35. > :26:41.my kids here. Them. That would be my number one concern.
:26:41. > :26:47.experience of all ba kurky gives me a whole new take on the moat tells
:26:47. > :26:51.flashes past on the free way, look closely and many are housing the
:26:51. > :26:55.hidden homeless. What role does a place like this play in the housing
:26:55. > :26:59.and homelessness system? Huge. Many of the folks for the first seven to
:26:59. > :27:02.ten days of each month, on the first or there about they get the
:27:02. > :27:06.Government welfare cheque. They spend some or all of that forget
:27:06. > :27:13.ago room for seven to ten day, once the cheque runs out they migrate
:27:13. > :27:16.down to Joy Junction. It is like an alternating system. It is. It is a
:27:17. > :27:22.reminder of the basic facts about this recession, it is a housing
:27:22. > :27:32.crisis. Many Americans can't afford to put a roof over their head, and
:27:32. > :27:38.
:27:38. > :27:46.home repossessions are still rising. The roads were filled with migrants
:27:46. > :27:51.80 years a office workers, farmers, all displayed by poverty.
:27:51. > :27:59.This landscape of Cactuss and vast canyon, must have seemed to them,
:27:59. > :28:03.like a different planet. If you compare the book to the
:28:03. > :28:08.actual journey, there is nothing in Steinbeck to prepare you for the
:28:08. > :28:12.vastness, the aridity, and the distance that the 30s dust ball
:28:12. > :28:18.migrants had to face. That is because I don't think Steinbeck
:28:18. > :28:21.actually made the full journey, what Steinbeck knew about what was
:28:21. > :28:26.was what was lay at the end of the journey, which was social conflict.
:28:26. > :28:29.Today you don't have to get to the end of the journey to find that.
:28:29. > :28:35.Arizona has become the political fault line of America, above all,
:28:35. > :28:40.on the issue of migration. The boom times drew in millions of his
:28:40. > :28:46.spannic migrant, millions illegal. But Arizona is still in recession
:28:46. > :28:52.and tensions are rising. In Phoenix, the inmates are forced
:28:52. > :28:57.to live in tents. The temperature when I went there was 114 degrees
:28:57. > :29:03.Fahrenheit. They are forbidden to cover their heads in the sun. As
:29:03. > :29:07.well as pink towels, socks and sheets, they are required to wear
:29:07. > :29:11.pink underwear, the objective, humiliation. In this something he
:29:11. > :29:16.gre gated section, every man is a migrant, jailed under the anti-
:29:16. > :29:19.migrant laws, and destined for deportation. Under a law called
:29:19. > :29:25.SB1070, if you are stopped by the police and cannot produce documents
:29:25. > :29:28.to prove your legal residence, you have committed an offence. Other
:29:28. > :29:34.laws criminalise the hiring of migrants, transporting them.
:29:34. > :29:37.don't have a name any more, you become a number. They call you
:29:37. > :29:40.alien, as if you were from another planet.
:29:40. > :29:44.Fernando Lopez was picked up for driving without a license. He spent
:29:45. > :29:51.a month in the prison system, and is now on bail, fighting
:29:51. > :29:58.deportation. How do young Mexican men live, what kind of jobs do they
:29:58. > :30:02.do? House keeping, land caping, restaurants. Every restaurant you
:30:02. > :30:07.will find Mexicans in the back. What makes people come here since
:30:07. > :30:13.it is so inhospitable, why do people still come? It is very hard
:30:13. > :30:16.for them to live over there. They don't have any other option than to
:30:17. > :30:25.go to go to another country. Probably the best option is the
:30:25. > :30:28.United States. But the migrants keep on coming, in the car parks,
:30:28. > :30:37.at hardware stores, here and across America, men wait for casual work,
:30:37. > :30:40.for cash. As for the families, at this
:30:41. > :30:45.Hispanic community centre, there is trepidation. Actually we are living
:30:45. > :30:52.in state of fear. We can't even go to the store, or go out like we
:30:52. > :30:55.used to do. Take the kids to the park, or take them somewhere to the
:30:55. > :31:00.mall, we can't do that, now the kids are feared that the police
:31:00. > :31:04.might stop their parents, or might stop us. So, right now, we just
:31:04. > :31:09.stay home, and we don't do nothing, we just stay there.
:31:09. > :31:14.At the office of the man in charge of law enforcement, there is a
:31:14. > :31:20.Bailey protest, but fear is what he's aiming at. They are leaving,
:31:20. > :31:25.they don't want to go into the hot tents, they worry about the Sheriff
:31:25. > :31:29.rounding them up in the work place, or coming into our county. That is
:31:29. > :31:35.why they are leaving. If you can do it in this county, you can do it
:31:35. > :31:41.across the United States, if people have the will to do it and fight
:31:41. > :31:48.the politics, or not care about the politics, or the his spannic vote,
:31:48. > :31:55.or the employ - Hispanic vote, or the employers having cheap labour.
:31:55. > :32:00.To the argument, that his spannics do the jobs nobody else - his
:32:00. > :32:05.spannics do the jobs nobody wants, he says this? This is the greatest
:32:05. > :32:10.country in the world, for them to say nobody lels do these jobs, are
:32:10. > :32:13.you kidding, any time we go into the business and drag the people
:32:13. > :32:16.out working illegally, they get tonnes of people applying for the
:32:16. > :32:21.job that are US citizens. We have an economic problem in this country,
:32:21. > :32:28.we have 10% unemployment. You have people from all professions that
:32:28. > :32:38.will wash cars, to make money for their families. You are telling me
:32:38. > :32:44.nobody will do these jobs, that is a cop out.
:32:44. > :32:48.The last part of the journey would be the most arduous, vigilante
:32:48. > :32:52.squads, roadblocks, strikes. In the 30s, people made this journey
:32:52. > :32:56.because at the end of it there were jobs. But for the past year,
:32:56. > :33:05.America's been going through what economists call a jobless recovery,
:33:05. > :33:11.and right now, even the recovery itself looks like it is stalling.
:33:11. > :33:19.In the book, the family crossed the desert by night, and at dawn they
:33:19. > :33:24.come to the San Joaquimvalley. drove through in the morning glow,
:33:24. > :33:34.and the sun came up behind them, suddenly they saw all the great
:33:34. > :33:39.valley below them. In Steinbeck, the migrants come to California to
:33:39. > :33:42.look for work, and they find work. But the book is a metaphor for
:33:43. > :33:46.something else, it is about the search for a new economic model
:33:46. > :33:49.that can create jobs, sustain growth and drive America out of
:33:50. > :33:57.recession. And that's a question they still face, even in place like
:33:57. > :34:03.this. The journey ended in bakeserfield,
:34:03. > :34:09.today, the - Bakersfield, today the biggest employers are oil and
:34:09. > :34:13.farming, but the biggest employer by far is the US military, when
:34:13. > :34:18.America boomed the town boomed, the population grew by a quarter in ten
:34:18. > :34:24.years. But now 15% are unemployed, and one home in 70 has been
:34:24. > :34:29.repossessed. All across the south, I found the
:34:29. > :34:36.same basic problem, not enough jobs, and not enough credit to revive the
:34:36. > :34:41.housing market. And in politics there is plenty of wrath. You can
:34:41. > :34:47.see and read more about Paul's journey from Oklahoma to California
:34:47. > :34:53.on our website. General Petraeus pet is regards as
:34:53. > :35:01.one of America's best - General David Petraeus is regarded as one
:35:01. > :35:06.of America's brightest. He begins his career as head of the FBI. His
:35:06. > :35:11.time in Afghanistan ends with troops withdrawing, a suggest of
:35:11. > :35:18.huge debai. As he headed home, we spoke - huge debate. As he headed
:35:18. > :35:24.home we spoke to him about it. NATO forces in Afghanistan have a new
:35:24. > :35:28.commander, General David Petraeus has served for a year, but he has
:35:28. > :35:33.been called home to head the CIA. The force he left behind is being
:35:33. > :35:40.cut faster than he recommended, and the insurgency has shown itself
:35:40. > :35:43.capable of hitting backs, with assassinations and attacks. NATO
:35:43. > :35:46.insists it is winning. This afternoon I asked the general what
:35:46. > :35:50.the grounds for optimisim could be? What we have seen now recently is
:35:51. > :35:57.developing into a trend. In fact, this past week, yet again, the
:35:57. > :36:03.level of insurgent attacks was a good bit lower, over 20% lower than
:36:03. > :36:09.the level of attacks the same week last year. That makes now nine of
:36:09. > :36:16.the last 13 weeks in which this has taken place, in which levels of
:36:16. > :36:20.attack s are lower than the course ponding month last year. That is
:36:20. > :36:22.completely contrary to what the intelligence professionals
:36:23. > :36:26.predicted. Do you think the strategic differences and the death
:36:26. > :36:31.of Bin Laden has checked political momentum, or is it not really
:36:31. > :36:36.possible to see it like that on the battlefield? It is a very
:36:36. > :36:40.significant blow to Al-Qaeda senior leadership, to the overall
:36:40. > :36:46.franchise of Al-Qaeda as well. He was the iconic figure of the
:36:46. > :36:53.movement. Even his image has been tarnished, diminished, by the final
:36:53. > :36:58.pictures seen of him, of just the fact that he is dead it's gone. And
:36:58. > :37:04.in the Arab world that is a, the biggest blow you can sustain. That,
:37:04. > :37:07.in a sense, is quite significant, obviously, it turns out he was
:37:07. > :37:14.quite active with operational guidance and working the movement.
:37:14. > :37:19.He was also a very effective fundraiser. His replacement is no
:37:19. > :37:24.Osama Bin Laden. So the movement, the overall Al-Qaeda franchise and
:37:24. > :37:29.network, has sustained a substantial blow. Having said that,
:37:29. > :37:34.it is not apparent what effect that has had on the insurgents fighting
:37:34. > :37:38.in Afghanistan. Although some of their leaders, certainly, have had
:37:38. > :37:43.second thoughts about how frequently they might move or
:37:43. > :37:49.relocate at various times, when they are in areas that they deem
:37:49. > :37:55.safe. There has been talk, particularly I'm thinking about the
:37:55. > :38:01.chairman of the joint chiefs, but as this process of drawdown goes on,
:38:01. > :38:06.at this rate there could be risks that are being embraced by going at
:38:06. > :38:11.that speed. What do you think can be done over the coming year, 18
:38:11. > :38:16.months, to mitigate the risks in the draw down? The key, of course,
:38:16. > :38:20.is to maintain the pressure on the insurgents, to reduce their
:38:20. > :38:26.capabilities, as much as is possible. To disrupt, to dismantle,
:38:26. > :38:29.in some cases to defeat them, in some local areas. And then to
:38:29. > :38:34.establish a combination of local security initiatives, Afghan
:38:34. > :38:39.national security forces, that can back them up, Afghan enablers,
:38:39. > :38:45.because again, keep in mind, we built the infantry formations first,
:38:45. > :38:50.now we are helping them build their artillery units, their fixed and
:38:50. > :38:53.rotary wing aviation, military intelligence, route clearance teams,
:38:53. > :38:57.engineering units, logistics and all of that. That is an important
:38:57. > :39:03.component as well. Indeed, to build that more rapidly, than we actually
:39:03. > :39:11.draw down. How big a risk to what's been achieved is the state of
:39:11. > :39:18.relations now with Pakistan? Well, clearly the relationship between my
:39:18. > :39:22.country and Pakistan has seen some challenges, needless to say, in
:39:22. > :39:27.recent months. Really in the last eight months or so. My hope,
:39:27. > :39:33.frankly, is that we recognise the mutual objective that is we have,
:39:33. > :39:38.and that we can indeed begin a process of reviving some elements
:39:38. > :39:42.of a relationship that has indeed been difficult. We do have a lot of
:39:42. > :39:46.common aims. It is, well I would say, I wouldn't say it is hard to
:39:46. > :39:50.imagine things getting worse, there could be a complete shutdown of
:39:50. > :39:55.relation, but it is at a pretty bad state, they have denied visas to
:39:55. > :39:59.advisers to their forces, they are claimed by the Afghan Government to
:39:59. > :40:02.be shelling into Afghanistan. They say they have withdrawn all co-
:40:02. > :40:07.operation from the US on drone strikes and that kind of thing. Do
:40:07. > :40:12.you really see the beginnings of a rebuilding of that, or are things
:40:13. > :40:19.still in the deep freeze? I do, actually. I think everyone has
:40:19. > :40:25.stepped back from the abyss. After looking into it, realising, once
:40:25. > :40:29.again, that we have again very important objectives, many of which
:40:29. > :40:33.we share, and we need to focus on those, and move forward.
:40:33. > :40:40.The campaign in Afghanistan, it has been a long slog, and there has
:40:40. > :40:46.been a huge price paid, in lives, in money, do you think that the
:40:46. > :40:51.patience of the US, the UK, NATO, will hold out over the next few
:40:52. > :40:58.years, can be depended upon, or do you see exhaustion setting in?
:40:59. > :41:04.has been a long war, no question about it. And our countries have
:41:04. > :41:08.shown enormous determination and persistence. My sense is that if
:41:08. > :41:13.that progress continues, if the people recognise that this does
:41:13. > :41:18.enable us to achieve our important objective over time, that they will
:41:18. > :41:23.continue to provide the requisite support, but it is incumbent on us
:41:23. > :41:28.and our Afghan partner, indeed, to continue to build on that progress,
:41:28. > :41:35.so that it can be very clearly seen by all those back home, who have
:41:35. > :41:39.sacrificed so much for this effort. Thank you very much. It is great to
:41:39. > :41:43.be with you. A former editor of Newsnight once
:41:43. > :41:48.told me that he thought this programme maybe one of the greatest
:41:48. > :41:51.contraceptives known to mankind. That therefore didn't entirely come
:41:51. > :41:55.as a shock that a blog claimed watching Newsnight when your
:41:55. > :41:59.partner goes to bed, is a sure sign your relationship is in trouble. We
:41:59. > :42:06.couldn't resist this one, if you are still watching alone or in
:42:06. > :42:11.couples, this is what Stephen Smith is making of it!
:42:11. > :42:18.You know how t it is late, it is just the two of you there on the
:42:18. > :42:23.couch. Time to snuggle up and share your favourite news almanac. Good
:42:23. > :42:31.luck with that. It turns out the only thing that's getting turgid,
:42:31. > :42:33.is our analysis, that is according to our highly-trained, eh,
:42:33. > :42:38.freelance journalist. It is a significant sign if your marriage
:42:38. > :42:44.is going on. If you watch Newsnight. At all? The scheduling of it, the
:42:44. > :42:49.timing of it, the attitude of it is not conducive to the end of a good
:42:49. > :42:53.day and a good marriage really. it ain't so. We turned to a long
:42:53. > :43:02.time Newsnight viewer and contributor, Edwina Currie.
:43:02. > :43:06.She would stick up for us, wouldn't she? No she wouldn't. I'm not the
:43:06. > :43:10.least doubtful that watching Newsnight can have a detrimental
:43:10. > :43:14.effect on relationships. Afterall, you are sitting on the sofa and
:43:14. > :43:19.your beloved says you are going up to bed. And you think, do I really
:43:19. > :43:23.want to follow this rather large, perhaps rather bearded character
:43:23. > :43:33.who is only interested in watching football on tele, when I could be
:43:33. > :43:41.
:43:41. > :43:47.with Jeremy Paxman, I think that is # Let me be good to you
:43:47. > :43:51.# # Let me be good to you 'S more like it. Newsnight unsexy,
:43:51. > :43:59.I don't think so. What girl, or guy, wouldn't melt a little at the
:43:59. > :44:04.thought of curling up with one of our box sets. Experts believe this
:44:04. > :44:09.early erotic print may show a couple watching the programme!
:44:09. > :44:15.Newsnight is one of the greatest aphrodisiacs, political debate,
:44:15. > :44:19.what more could a woman ask for. Seriously, and a man. If you are
:44:19. > :44:23.into mental stimulation, as a bit of foreplay. Are you sure you're
:44:23. > :44:28.tuned to the right channel? Absolutely positive. As a
:44:28. > :44:36.professional, doctor, is it possible that Newsnight could be
:44:36. > :44:45.some kind of aphrodisiac? Ha ha, ...I Want you to think about this,
:44:45. > :44:49.this is a serious matter? Newsnight can give topics for two people.
:44:49. > :44:53.pillow talk? To talk about afterwards. Afterwards. After the
:44:53. > :44:57.programme. After the programme or after the watershed? Ha ha, after
:44:57. > :45:03.the programme. It can do that. I think people talk a lot about
:45:03. > :45:07.what's going on today. People should. Everybody is affected in
:45:07. > :45:12.one degree or another, unless of course people want to shut off from
:45:12. > :45:16.it, there are a lot of people who do. But the people at the Middle
:45:16. > :45:20.Class Handbook prefer to see our programme as a dirty little secret.
:45:20. > :45:25.If you are man it is to be treated like a form of pornography, what
:45:25. > :45:30.you should do is watch it very quietly perhaps on your iPhone on
:45:30. > :45:35.the iPlayer during the day, or watch it can friend or discuss it
:45:35. > :45:41.in the pub with your - watch it with your friends or discuss it in
:45:41. > :45:48.the pub. Don't let Paxman become the third man in your marriage.
:45:48. > :45:53.Newsnight is a tonic to my relationship, if you have an
:45:53. > :45:57.argument and watch Jeremy take um bridge with an unforth coming
:45:57. > :46:07.politician, or anyone, that apieces my rage, mellows the situation.
:46:07. > :46:08.