:00:08. > :00:13.Tonight, the long, slow, self- inflicted mess of British tabloid
:00:13. > :00:17.newspapers, from the families of murder victims allegedly hacked, to
:00:17. > :00:21.the disgraced private detect yef i Glenn Mulcaire, who says he was
:00:21. > :00:24.acting - detective, Glenn Mulcaire, who saves acted under instruction
:00:24. > :00:27.who saves acted under instruction from News of the World.
:00:27. > :00:31.Now libel payments in the Joanna Yeates case.
:00:32. > :00:36.And guilty of contempt of court. Can the tabloids free themselves
:00:36. > :00:40.from the cycle of decline. Apologies, sackings, investigation,
:00:40. > :00:44.and further falls in circulation. We will hear from the detective
:00:44. > :00:49.investigating Sarah Payne's death, and why he thinks he was hacked. We
:00:49. > :00:53.will debate whether the British popular press is committing suicide.
:00:53. > :00:57.The New York Stock Exchange opened today, perhaps not taking the
:00:57. > :01:00.prospect of debt default completely seriously, as Congress and the
:01:00. > :01:04.President continued to play chicken for control of the US economy.
:01:04. > :01:08.we don't come to an agreement we could lose our country's AAA credit
:01:08. > :01:13.rating. Not because we don't have the capacity to pay our bills
:01:13. > :01:20.wrecks do. But because we didn't have a AAA political system to
:01:20. > :01:23.match. Good evening. One of the reasons
:01:23. > :01:26.the British press is so vigorous is because it is probably the most
:01:26. > :01:31.competitive in the world. With more or less every newspaper seeing its
:01:31. > :01:34.readership getting older, younger readers not buying papers and the
:01:34. > :01:37.obvious challengers from the Internet, you might they think we
:01:37. > :01:41.are now witnessing the perfect storm. Phone hacking, libel case,
:01:41. > :01:45.contempt of court, and that was just today. The News of the World
:01:45. > :01:48.might not be, in the end, the only tabloid to close. We will hear from
:01:48. > :01:52.the detective in the Sarah Payne murder investigation in a moment
:01:52. > :01:55.and debate whether the popular press has a future.
:01:56. > :02:00.After yesterday's revelations, that the mother of the murdered
:02:00. > :02:05.schoolgirl, Sarah Payne, had her phone hacked, by the News of the
:02:05. > :02:10.World investigator, Glenn Mulcaire, today, Mulcaire himself entered the
:02:11. > :02:16.fray. Hinting he might now reveal all. Responding to last night's
:02:16. > :02:20.claims by the paper's then editor, Rebekah Brooks, that he had acted
:02:20. > :02:30.alone in hacking Sara Payne's phone. Mulcaire didn't deny he had done
:02:30. > :02:43.
:02:43. > :02:46.. There has been a lot of dumping on the reputation of Glenn Mulcaire,
:02:46. > :02:50.rather unably I guess, given what he has done. Let's remember he
:02:50. > :02:53.served time in prison for phone hacking. He's one of the few people
:02:53. > :02:57.that can actually say he's taken his medicine. His statement today
:02:57. > :03:01.is clearly saying to the company, if you carry on like this, I will
:03:01. > :03:05.spill the beans F Mulcaire was going to speak out, this really
:03:05. > :03:10.will crack this case open. I hope he does. If that's not enough for
:03:10. > :03:14.the Murdoch press, today the Sun, along with seven other papers, paid
:03:15. > :03:20.unknown libel damages to Chris Jefferies, lard Lord of the
:03:20. > :03:26.murdered Bristol architect, Joanna Yeates. The Mirror, were also fined
:03:26. > :03:31.�50,000 for contempt of court, and the Sun, �18,000. Chris Jefferies
:03:31. > :03:35.is the latest victim of the regular witch-hunt and character
:03:35. > :03:38.assassination, conducted by the worst elements of the British
:03:38. > :03:43.tabloid media. Also today an intriguing story about Louise
:03:43. > :03:49.Mensch, the Conservative, who was one of the toughest MPs at last
:03:49. > :03:54.week's Murdoch hearings. She issued a statement about her
:03:54. > :03:59.friendship with the violinist, Nigel Kennedy, pretty much
:03:59. > :04:03.admitting she had once taken drugs with him. Mensch's statement was a
:04:03. > :04:06.response to a mysterious David Jones, someone claiming to be an
:04:06. > :04:16.investigative reporter, who had also sent his e-mailing inquiry to
:04:16. > :04:31.
:04:31. > :04:36.Look, good on Louise Mensch for dealing with this. I don't care
:04:36. > :04:40.what Louise Mensch did in night cluebs in the 1990, what she has
:04:40. > :04:44.effectively done today is give a finger to a low life journalist who
:04:44. > :04:47.tried to dig up dirt on her years ago, probably because she's
:04:47. > :04:51.involved in exposing the truth on hacking and involved in the
:04:51. > :04:56.committee. She has my full support. I seriously hope whatever story is
:04:56. > :05:00.trying to peddle this story will think again. Isn't it legitimate,
:05:00. > :05:03.that journalists should look into the background of prominent MPs, we
:05:03. > :05:07.are talking about law breaking? Context is everything.
:05:07. > :05:10.This is a really miserable time for the tabloid newspapers. With their
:05:10. > :05:16.methods under attack from the British public, from the police,
:05:16. > :05:20.politicians and now most likely the inquiry led by Lord Justice Leveson.
:05:20. > :05:25.They face testify competition, not just from traditional broadcasting,
:05:25. > :05:29.but now from the Internet and other social media. And whilst nearly all
:05:29. > :05:34.newspapers have seen a significant fall in circulation, in recent
:05:34. > :05:36.years, for the tabloid press, the drop in sales has been particularly
:05:36. > :05:40.bad. Tabloid newspapers have been in
:05:40. > :05:44.decline for some time, over the last 20 years, in terms of the
:05:44. > :05:49.circulation they have declined 35- 40%, more than 12 million paid
:05:49. > :05:51.copies today to fewer than eight million paid copies per day. They
:05:51. > :05:55.have also seen a decline in advertising, particularly in recent
:05:55. > :05:59.years, on the back of the recession. That has meant that profitability
:05:59. > :06:02.of tabloid newspapers has also declined. So while tabloid
:06:02. > :06:05.newspapers are clearly more profitable than their quality
:06:05. > :06:09.counterparts, it is also the case that it is becoming harder and
:06:09. > :06:16.harder for them to achieve the kinds of big profits that they were
:06:16. > :06:25.able to achieve in the past. Nine years ago Glenn Mulcaire made
:06:25. > :06:29.a name for himself, by scoring the first-ever goal for the newly-
:06:29. > :06:33.formed AFC Wimbledon, who next year start in the Football League.
:06:33. > :06:38.honest we should have scored earlier in the game. Tonight,
:06:38. > :06:48.Trigger Mulcaire threatens even more dramatic shots. Hinting he may
:06:48. > :06:51.
:06:51. > :06:58.yet name big names in the hacking Joining me now is Detective Chief
:06:58. > :07:02.Inspector Martyn Underhill, he was the liaison officer with the Payne
:07:02. > :07:05.family and investigated Sarah Payne's death. I had a lot of
:07:05. > :07:09.contact with Sara Payne, and got to know her personally very well. We
:07:09. > :07:13.used to speak to each other a lot on the phone, even when the case
:07:13. > :07:17.finished. I remember in 2002, I got a phone call at home on Saturday
:07:17. > :07:21.afternoon from a very high senior executive from News of the World,
:07:21. > :07:25.who I knew. He said to me, we have got a story we are going to print
:07:25. > :07:29.about you tomorrow and the Payne family, I would like you to make a
:07:29. > :07:32.comment. He told me the story, which was outrageous and not true.
:07:32. > :07:38.I said, I don't know where you got that from, but that is completely
:07:38. > :07:43.untrue, if you print that I will sue will you - sue you. They said
:07:43. > :07:48.they have a very good source you might as well admit it. I said the
:07:48. > :07:52.source was wrong and I will sue. The story was never printed, Sara
:07:52. > :07:56.and the family and I denied what was alleged. The matter was never
:07:56. > :08:01.resolved in my mind, I never knew why that phone call took place, or
:08:01. > :08:04.where the information came from. And then the phone hacking story
:08:04. > :08:08.came in, and one thing that struck me about the senior executive from
:08:08. > :08:12.News of the World, was that if he had a source, and he had asked me
:08:12. > :08:16.for a comment, which I gave, he could have printed that story, but
:08:16. > :08:22.he didn't. I think that source was illegal, I think that my phone was
:08:22. > :08:26.hacked, my police phone was hacked. Because Sara used to leave me
:08:26. > :08:29.messages on the answer phone and I used to leave messages. You know
:08:29. > :08:34.the name of the executive, who was it? I don't want to name that
:08:34. > :08:39.person, because that person hasn't had a chance to reply to what I'm
:08:39. > :08:42.saying tonight. Suffice to say it was a senior member of the team of
:08:42. > :08:47.the News of the World, and has been named in the scandal. Can you tell
:08:47. > :08:50.us what the story was about, even though it was false? I'm only
:08:50. > :08:54.talking about it now because of the hacking scandal. It has remained
:08:54. > :09:00.private for eight years, and I don't want to discuss it. This was
:09:00. > :09:06.a newspaper that was helping Sara Payne, she thought? So what were
:09:06. > :09:10.they up to? Sara and I have a very good friendship. We have never
:09:10. > :09:14.agreed on News of the World. When I was a serving police officer, and
:09:15. > :09:21.now, I always told her that the News of the World saw Sara Payne as
:09:21. > :09:24.a commodity, she sold newspapers. Sara was fefrently committed to
:09:24. > :09:31.Sarah's Law, and still is, I respect her for that. I did try
:09:31. > :09:34.after this phone call from the executive in 2002 and several times
:09:34. > :09:38.since, I said the newspaper will turn on a sixpence, you are a
:09:38. > :09:42.commodity and they will hurt you. Are you basically saying they were
:09:42. > :09:47.double dealing, on the one hand they were helping her and on the
:09:47. > :09:53.other hand digging dirt? The phone call I received in 2002 clearly
:09:53. > :09:56.showed double dealing, I said to her to leave the paper. She
:09:56. > :09:59.believes in Sarah's Law passionately, News of the World
:09:59. > :10:05.achieved massive amount with Sarah's Law, which I'm proud to
:10:05. > :10:08.have been part of. I can understand why she didn't leave, I warned her
:10:08. > :10:12.saying the paper is double dealing. The events of the last few days
:10:12. > :10:16.have shown that. You don't want to talk about the story because it was
:10:16. > :10:20.false? It was, completely. This about your conduct as a police
:10:20. > :10:25.officer, or were they looking in supposedly private matters, they
:10:25. > :10:29.were digging dirt? This was private matters between myself and the
:10:29. > :10:32.Payne family, which would have been embarrassing for me personally and
:10:32. > :10:37.my relationship at that time and would have been terrible for the
:10:37. > :10:41.Payne family as well. Did the Payne family, or Sara not say this is
:10:41. > :10:45.terrible, it is clearly wrong, they shouldn't be doing this. You said
:10:45. > :10:49.obviously she was committed to going ahead with Sarah's Law, and
:10:49. > :10:53.being helped in that. But this is pretty awful? It was awful at the
:10:53. > :10:57.time, and it still is, they were digging dirt. And clearly, in my
:10:57. > :11:00.view, they were hacking phones, mine and Saras, she did challenge
:11:00. > :11:04.the News of the World over it, and I did, saying I would sue. To be
:11:04. > :11:07.fair I never had a good relationship with the News of the
:11:07. > :11:12.World, I was a police officer dealing with the Payne family, I
:11:12. > :11:15.was constantly in conflict with the news. I have met all the executive,
:11:15. > :11:21.Rebekah Brooks, and others, because of the Sarah's Law campaign.
:11:21. > :11:25.wouldn't name this executive tonight, but in Operation Weeting,
:11:25. > :11:28.and subsequent inquiries you could? I have named the News of the World
:11:28. > :11:31.executive to Operation Weeting, but I'm not prepared to name them
:11:31. > :11:34.tonight. Now joining me is the academic and
:11:34. > :11:40.writer, Sarah Churchwell, the Conservative MP, Jacob Rees-Mogg,
:11:40. > :11:46.and the former People editor and editor of the British journal
:11:46. > :11:50.review, Bill Haggerty. Is this tabloid - are the tabloids slowly
:11:50. > :11:55.committing suicide? I don't think the, I think there have been very
:11:55. > :11:58.disgraceful things that have gone on, these are working their way
:11:58. > :12:03.through the courts and the contempt of court action, not to mention the
:12:03. > :12:07.hacking trials that either have taken place or will go ahead.
:12:07. > :12:13.see they still have an important role in British life. They do act
:12:13. > :12:17.as a disinfectant? They sell millions of copies and are free,
:12:17. > :12:21.competitive, aggressive press, and keeping British public life honest.
:12:21. > :12:25.It would be great loss if we didn't have an effective and free press.
:12:25. > :12:29.But they don't stick within the law. It is not that we need new laws
:12:29. > :12:32.within the law of contempt and libel, and we're hearing a lot
:12:32. > :12:36.about phone hacking? It is quite right the law should be applied.
:12:36. > :12:40.And it is being applied. It is hard to see legally what the problem is.
:12:40. > :12:43.You don't need more laws, just apply the ones that exist. Do you
:12:43. > :12:46.think the tabloids are slowly unravelling, they face a lot of
:12:46. > :12:51.competition, not just with each other but other sources of
:12:51. > :12:54.information? I think the problem s I agree we need a free press. If we
:12:54. > :13:00.needed any evidence we need a free press, the story wouldn't have
:13:00. > :13:02.broken if it weren't for the Guardian. For would the MPs'
:13:02. > :13:06.expenses scandal? They provide us with investigation, accountability,
:13:06. > :13:10.they are providing a forum for all kinds of things we need. The
:13:10. > :13:13.problem with the tabloids we have been seeing here, is they haven't
:13:13. > :13:16.been behaving like journalist, but novelist, they have been saying
:13:16. > :13:19.what they felt like. It is not about operating within the bounds
:13:19. > :13:23.of the law, they have clearly been breaking the law. They have been
:13:23. > :13:26.making things up, and they haven't operated within the boundaries of
:13:26. > :13:30.journalistic ethics. Beyond that they are breaking the law. It seems
:13:30. > :13:34.to me there are two problems, the law needs to be enforced, as you
:13:34. > :13:38.said, it is being enforced, too often it is left to individuals to
:13:38. > :13:42.try to pursue civil case, which often individuals can't do. But
:13:42. > :13:46.there does need to be some kind of reckoning about journalistic ethics.
:13:46. > :13:49.Not just reckoning about journalistic ethic, perhaps the
:13:49. > :13:54.press has never been entirely respectable, perhaps that is a good
:13:54. > :13:57.thing. But journalists used to read essential law for journalist, they
:13:57. > :14:02.used to know what libel and contempt was? I think you are right.
:14:02. > :14:05.It is essential they are not respectable. It isth has always cut
:14:05. > :14:09.corners and been - it has always cut corners and been close to the
:14:09. > :14:13.edge, but not this. It is over relatively recent years, I hope
:14:13. > :14:17.that what has happened now, and there May may be more to come, will
:14:17. > :14:20.stop it and put it back on track. Do you think it is the popular
:14:20. > :14:24.press and it is popular because it is popular, because people want to
:14:24. > :14:29.read it, do you think it is declining, it doesn't have the
:14:29. > :14:34.capacity to influence things that it perhaps did a year ago? It is
:14:34. > :14:39.declining b but not with what is happening now, it may decline
:14:39. > :14:45.further, but the Internet gave it a terrible body blow, and the
:14:45. > :14:49.industry hasn't found Outtara to harness the Internet and use it to
:14:49. > :14:52.make profits. This story about Louise Mensch, we heart MP, Tom
:14:52. > :14:56.Watson say it is ridiculous, but that story about what she may or
:14:56. > :15:02.may not have done in her 20s, coming up now, does it suggest that
:15:02. > :15:07.some people are out for revenge to try to get her? There's no evidence
:15:07. > :15:12.of that. I was at Oxford with Louis when she never seemed to have more
:15:12. > :15:18.than a small glass of sherry, I'm surprised by the revelations.
:15:18. > :15:22.didn't dance on tables with Nigel Kennedy yourself? No I didn't, I'm
:15:22. > :15:25.not a great dancer on tables. The timing is highly suspicious, I
:15:25. > :15:31.would certainly agree with that. It is very odd that the papers should
:15:31. > :15:35.be going back to raking up things people may or may not have done.
:15:35. > :15:39.you think there is a fear in MPs, there was a fear that member who
:15:39. > :15:44.talked to MPs about what the newspapers might drag up, there was
:15:44. > :15:50.a degree of fear? I have never really believed that. I was only
:15:50. > :15:54.afraid of Nigel Dempster thrfrbgs a worry about gossip story, it is -
:15:54. > :15:57.there was a worry about gossip stories, it was never a serious
:15:57. > :16:00.worry. There is too much concentration on spin, and that the
:16:00. > :16:04.Government had to control the media. That lasts for a relatively short
:16:04. > :16:09.time. New Labour was very good at it in its early days, and became
:16:09. > :16:13.bad at it as the press saw through it. And that created a feeling that
:16:13. > :16:18.the press was more powerful than it ever was. Do you think we will end
:16:18. > :16:22.up with a new reinvigorated Press Complaints Commission, the boss
:16:22. > :16:25.quit today, is that what we want? You need some kind of regulation.
:16:25. > :16:27.You need some kind of accountability. I don't believe it
:16:27. > :16:31.should come from the Government. The obvious objections to
:16:31. > :16:35.Government controlling the press is precisely that you no longer have a
:16:35. > :16:38.free press. You have to have the ability to criticise, investigate,
:16:38. > :16:41.and not to be partisan and political. It needs to be something
:16:41. > :16:44.with teeth, that can say, not just if you have broken the law, but
:16:44. > :16:47.things like printing the facts matters. It matters if you make
:16:47. > :16:50.things up wholesale. If you are a newspaper and claiming to tell the
:16:50. > :16:53.truth t should matter and does matter. There will be more burdens
:16:54. > :16:57.on newspapers from now? I think, but self-regulation has to be the
:16:57. > :16:59.way forward. It hasn't worked properly, without a doubt. There is
:16:59. > :17:03.not one political party that warrants statutory regulation of
:17:03. > :17:08.the press. Indeed it would be very bad for democracy and the country,
:17:08. > :17:12.were that to happen. But I do think there has to be major overall of
:17:12. > :17:18.the Press Complaints Commission, a serious one, that is going to be
:17:18. > :17:22.very difficult to. Do Do you think another newspaper - - very
:17:22. > :17:25.difficult to do. Do you think another newspaper will go. I spoke
:17:25. > :17:29.do you when the News of the World went? I think under these
:17:29. > :17:33.circumstances no, but one could go with falling circulation and
:17:33. > :17:36.inability to harness the Internet make profits. People seem to forget,
:17:36. > :17:42.many people seem to think the newspapers are a public service,
:17:42. > :17:46.but they are not, they have to make profits to survive. When they say
:17:46. > :17:50.newspapers only want to sell papers, it is true. Did you weep when the
:17:50. > :17:53.News of the World went? I didn't, I very rarely saw the News of the
:17:53. > :17:59.World,ly confess it always wrote about celebrities I had never heard
:17:59. > :18:02.about, it wasn't my weekend reading. I do like the Sun, however, I have
:18:02. > :18:07.always thought it is a very well written, good political newspaper.
:18:07. > :18:11.I would be sorry if that got into trouble. But I think newspapers
:18:11. > :18:17.always have waxed and waned, this is not the first newspaper to have
:18:17. > :18:20.closed. The ska Telegraph - the Telegraph incorporates any number
:18:20. > :18:24.of newspapers that have closed over the years.
:18:24. > :18:28.The idea of the richest country in the world, deciding not to pay its
:18:28. > :18:32.debts, sound like a cross between a nightmare and a joke, but President
:18:32. > :18:35.Obama was not in a jokey mood when he lectured Congress today about
:18:35. > :18:40.the failures of the American political system. To get to grips
:18:40. > :18:44.with raising the debt ceiling. The clock is ticking towards a possible
:18:44. > :18:47.debt default next Tuesday w profound impli cakess for the
:18:47. > :18:53.world's financial markets - with profound implications for the
:18:53. > :18:59.world's financial markets. In the new film, Campaign America,
:18:59. > :19:03.he leads the world out of crisis, who is the hero and who is the
:19:03. > :19:07.villain, does he need saving from himself. Right now a $14 trillion
:19:07. > :19:14.debt monster threatens to knock the financial world off course, sending
:19:14. > :19:18.it into a slowdown or worse. To defeat it Republicans and Democrats
:19:18. > :19:25.must unite. All they have to do is to lift the US Treasury's debt
:19:25. > :19:35.limit by Tuesday. Which hero can wake the US up from a financial
:19:35. > :19:43.
:19:43. > :19:47.nightmare, born of political The American people have made it
:19:47. > :19:51.abundantly clear, they don't want us to raise the debt limit, whether
:19:51. > :19:56.it is a short-term raise or a long- term raise. It is the President who
:19:56. > :20:00.doesn't seem to understand the magnitude of our national debt.
:20:00. > :20:06.Taxes are too low to cover spending, and the TEA Party, won't let them
:20:06. > :20:11.rise, but for every dollar the US spends it has to Moran than 30 cent,
:20:11. > :20:16.old-style Republicans are angry. The idea seems to be, if the House
:20:16. > :20:21.GOP refuses to raise the debt ceiling a default crisis or gradual
:20:21. > :20:25.Government shutdown will ensue, and the public will turn en masse
:20:25. > :20:28.against Barack Obama. Republican House that failed to raise the debt
:20:28. > :20:34.ceiling would some how escape all the blame. Then Democrats would
:20:34. > :20:37.have no choice but to pass a balanced budget amendment and
:20:37. > :20:41.reform entitlements and the TEA Party Hobbits could return to
:20:41. > :20:47.middle earth, having defeated Mordor. Today there was a renewed
:20:47. > :20:51.push to get the deal done. There are plenty of ways out of this mess.
:20:51. > :20:54.But we are almost out of time. We need to reach a compromise by
:20:54. > :21:00.Tuesday, so that our country will have the ability to pay its bills
:21:00. > :21:02.on time, as we always have. Bills that include monthly social
:21:03. > :21:05.security cheques, veterans' benefits and the Government
:21:05. > :21:11.contracts we have signed with thousands of businesses. Keep in
:21:11. > :21:15.mind f if we don't do that, if we don't come to an agreement, we
:21:15. > :21:20.could lose our country's AAA credit rating. Who actually does the US
:21:20. > :21:25.Government owe money too? There are small holdings by investment funds
:21:25. > :21:30.and oil exporters, of the foreign cet creditors, the biggest is China,
:21:30. > :21:33.followed by Japan and the rest of the world. No wonder China is often
:21:33. > :21:38.called America's credit card. The biggest lender to the US Treasury
:21:38. > :21:46.is the US itself, institutions from pension funds to the Federal
:21:46. > :21:50.Reserve. The sharpest critics of the United States have described it
:21:50. > :21:54.as a country with Social Democratic spending and TEA Party taxes, you
:21:54. > :21:57.can't go on like, that but it is still hard to believe we are
:21:57. > :22:02.talking about the world's wealthiest country, perhaps not
:22:02. > :22:06.being able to pay its billsment how likely is that nightmare - its
:22:07. > :22:11.bills. How likely is that nightmare society? A US sovereign default,
:22:11. > :22:18.even if it is technical, short lived, made good in a matter of
:22:18. > :22:22.days, will cause n my view, a worldwide recession. It is going to
:22:22. > :22:26.completely disrupt financial markets from here to Tokyo.
:22:26. > :22:31.chances of that are now small, but not negligible. What is more likely
:22:31. > :22:36.than not, that next week there will be a fudge, no default, but no
:22:36. > :22:42.convincing package of reform either. If so, analysts say, the US would
:22:42. > :22:46.lose the AAA credit rating that allows it to borrow cheap money.
:22:46. > :22:51.Getting to that new equilibrium, where the new underline safety of
:22:51. > :22:56.the dollar is less than before, where this anchor of global
:22:56. > :23:00.stability is becoming more brittle, that will require higher yields and
:23:00. > :23:03.a much weaker dollar, and the combination will be weaker activity
:23:03. > :23:10.in the US because of the higher interest rates, and weaker activity
:23:10. > :23:13.in the rest of the world, because the US will be exporting with
:23:13. > :23:16.weaker demand to the exchange rate. The trouble is there are banks and
:23:17. > :23:21.private institutions around the world whose rules say they must
:23:21. > :23:25.invest in only AAA rated securities. If the US gets downgraded, they
:23:25. > :23:30.will be holding thrillions of US debt against their own rules.
:23:30. > :23:33.problem is, if the US moves away from AAA rating, what do they do?
:23:34. > :23:37.Now in a small country they would sell their bonds, but in the case
:23:37. > :23:41.of the United States, the bond market is so huge, it is so big,
:23:41. > :23:44.and the ownerships are so large, that it is really the central banks
:23:44. > :23:49.that will have to change their mandate, rather than selling these
:23:49. > :23:52.bonds. Because there wouldn't be enough buyers? Well, there wouldn't
:23:52. > :23:58.be enough buyers in the world really, the world's not big enough
:23:58. > :24:02.to absorb the amount of debt the US has.
:24:02. > :24:08.Whatever Captain America's trouble, international investors are more
:24:08. > :24:16.likely to waive the rules rather than dump dollars. As the market
:24:16. > :24:20.opened, investors must have been wondered if a debt-free US could
:24:20. > :24:25.ever be taken seriously. My guests are with me. Would
:24:25. > :24:29.Republicans rather see the richest nation on earth default on its
:24:29. > :24:33.debts than raise taxes? Thank you, first of all, for the opportunity
:24:33. > :24:37.to come on your show and talk about grassroots American politics, which
:24:37. > :24:42.I wrote a book about, it is called Right Angle, perhaps after the
:24:42. > :24:46.events of the last two days I should have called it Handbook for
:24:46. > :24:49.Hobbits. We don't want to see the country default, we don't think
:24:49. > :24:53.that is where it is headed. In your report you talked about paying our
:24:53. > :24:59.bills and defaulting in the same sentence. They are really two
:24:59. > :25:05.different things. We can pay our bills n fact we have $200 billion a
:25:05. > :25:09.month coming in, our bills are $145 billion, we have enough to pay
:25:09. > :25:14.bills. The world should not be concerned. We have a net safety.
:25:14. > :25:18.The world is concerned and so is senator John McCain, he said it is
:25:18. > :25:25.crack political thinking and called you a political Hobbit. Yes he did.
:25:25. > :25:31.But what he for gth got about The Hobbit trilogy, is The Hobbits win
:25:31. > :25:35.in the end. What is going on is the bill is the safety net bill, that
:25:35. > :25:40.covers our paying our bills every month. What we're really talking
:25:40. > :25:45.about here is the deficit spending that is going on, and how do we
:25:45. > :25:49.stop the deficit spending, no-one can spend in the deficit without a
:25:49. > :25:53.consequence. Our consequences are coming up right now. How does
:25:53. > :25:58.defaulting on your debts help. That I think senator McCain was
:25:58. > :26:03.suggesting you're living in some kind of fantasy calling you a
:26:03. > :26:08.Hobbit. He wasn't suggesting you defeat Mordor? We are not living in
:26:08. > :26:12.fantasy. And our demand is that we live within our means. Which is a
:26:12. > :26:17.balanced budget amendment. That is what we are asking for. Balance the
:26:17. > :26:22.budget. That is what we want, first of all, is for them to take that up,
:26:23. > :26:29.and senior Harry Reid says he has no choice, he does, we have -
:26:29. > :26:32.senator Harry Reid says he has no choices. We have said cut, and
:26:32. > :26:37.balance. Senator Harry Reid defeated you. But the big point
:26:37. > :26:41.surely is that this could very easily be a rerun of the mid-1990s,
:26:41. > :26:44.when a Republican Congress couldn't agree with a Democrat President,
:26:45. > :26:49.and Bill Clinton won the next election by landslide, because the
:26:49. > :26:55.country, in the end rallied round him? I think when you talk about
:26:55. > :26:59.politics in America, you need to look back at 2010. We sent a clear
:26:59. > :27:02.mandate, it was over two third of our country that agrows we need to
:27:02. > :27:05.balance this budget, - agrees wrecks need to send a balanced
:27:05. > :27:12.budget amendment to the people. We need to quit spending like we are
:27:12. > :27:16.spending. That is what we are asking them to do, deal with this.
:27:16. > :27:19.We are not sending them to default. They are putting us in this
:27:19. > :27:24.situation. They are in the majority, they could come up with something
:27:24. > :27:27.themselves, instead, Senator Harry Reid just sits back and says no, no,
:27:27. > :27:31.no. Instead of presenting something himself. Are you concerned how this
:27:31. > :27:37.is seen around the world. The British business secretary, Vince
:27:37. > :27:40.cable said the world economy was being held hostage by American
:27:40. > :27:44.right-wing nutters? Of course we're concerned about how the world will
:27:44. > :27:49.be impacted by what we do. And that's why we are taking steps to
:27:49. > :27:53.make sure that we correct the course we are on. We don't want to
:27:53. > :27:56.drag the whole world economy down. That is why we need to correct our
:27:56. > :28:02.economy and the best way to do that is to get a balanced budget
:28:02. > :28:06.amendment in place, and then deal with this situation that we're in
:28:06. > :28:10.by cutting and capping. Thank you very much, we will watch with
:28:10. > :28:13.interest what happens over the next few days.
:28:13. > :28:19.Now Michael Crick is here on his last appearance on Newsnight to
:28:19. > :28:23.help us review the papers. What have we got. The front page of the
:28:23. > :28:26.Telegraph is saying MPs on the Culture Select Committee are
:28:26. > :28:29.Culture Select Committee are preparing to recall James Murdoch
:28:29. > :28:32.after three senior former News International executives have
:28:32. > :28:36.disputed the evidence he and Rebekah Brooks gave last week.
:28:36. > :28:40.Interesting story on the front page of the Guardian, they say Miliband
:28:40. > :28:45.is taking his first steps towards reconciliation with his brother, by
:28:45. > :28:48.agreeing to be an unofficial ambassador from the Labour Party to
:28:49. > :28:56.university and college campuses. Another story that struck me on the
:28:56. > :29:03.front page of the Financial Times, about our former colleague Laura
:29:03. > :29:09.Kunsberg about how when she joined ITV recently she took 60,000
:29:09. > :29:14.Twitter followers with her. You're in that story? I did the same sort
:29:14. > :29:18.of thing, I have a more modest band of followers. I decided not to loaf
:29:18. > :29:21.them here and hope they will come with - leave them here and hope
:29:22. > :29:25.they will come with me. That is all from us, it is Michael's last show
:29:25. > :29:30.before he quits journalism to join channel 4 we leave you with a few
:29:30. > :29:38.of the politicians he has made friends with over the past few
:29:38. > :29:48.years. REPORTER: Aren't you taking the quiet man business a bit far.
:29:48. > :29:50.
:29:50. > :29:56.Why are all the heaviests trying to get me out of there. Wouldn't be to
:29:56. > :30:01.be better to spend the next week. Jeffrey Archer, clip, clip, clip,