:00:07. > :00:11.Tonight, capital in chaos, as Tonight, capital in chaos, as
:00:11. > :00:15.riots, looting, fires and vandalism spread across large parts of London.
:00:15. > :00:18.The trouble started in Hackney this afternoon and spread to South
:00:18. > :00:21.London, cars, houses and businesses have been set ablaze, the
:00:21. > :00:26.have been attacked. The Prime Minister is tonight flying home
:00:26. > :00:31.holiday to deal with the crisis. Tottenham riots have spread. This is
:00:31. > :00:35.Hackney in East London, where riot police have closed down the entire
:00:35. > :00:38.area after looters organising through social networks went on the
:00:38. > :00:43.rampage. As the trouble spreads beyond London, to Birmingham
:00:43. > :00:47.tonight, can the government and police get a grip? It's just like,
:00:47. > :00:51.what's going to happen in England now, because of cuts, are people's
:00:51. > :00:55.homes going to be burned and suddenly be made homeless?
:00:55. > :00:58.think so. Why aren't we protected? Tonight, we'll discuss why this
:00:59. > :01:02.mayhem is happening, why it's spreading and whether there are any
:01:02. > :01:06.lessons to be learned from the inner city riots of the 1980s. Also, can
:01:06. > :01:14.the world avoid a double dip recession? We have the latest on the
:01:14. > :01:18.stuttering economy. Good evening, it's been another
:01:18. > :01:22.night of serious disturbances streets of London, in parts of the
:01:22. > :01:26.capital, the mob simply rules. The damage to property is already well
:01:26. > :01:31.into millions of pounds, ahead of the London Olympics,
:01:31. > :01:33.there's also damage to the capital's reputation and to that. Metropolitan
:01:34. > :01:36.Police, and big questions Cameron about how the government
:01:37. > :01:40.dealing with the rioting. Since trouble started with a peaceful
:01:40. > :01:46.protest in Tottenham on Saturday, has spread to London districts as
:01:46. > :01:51.far apart as Enfield, Walthamstow, Oxford Street, Brixton and
:01:51. > :01:55.Harlesden, but in Hackney there was the worst of today's violence and
:01:55. > :01:58.looting, by the end of the afternoon, there was trouble in
:01:58. > :02:02.Lewisham and Peckham where cars were set ablaze and another fire in
:02:02. > :02:05.Croydon. As the evening progressed, it was confirmed there had been
:02:05. > :02:10.disturbances in Birmingham city centre. The Prime Minister is
:02:10. > :02:13.cutting short his holiday and will chair a crisis meeting tomorrow,
:02:13. > :02:18.while politicians and community leaders have been scratching around
:02:18. > :02:23.for reasons, some speak of social dislocation, but others say this is
:02:23. > :02:28.simply thieving and wrecking. We begin with the latest from Philippa,
:02:29. > :02:33.we can see some pictures live from that fire in Croydon, quite
:02:33. > :02:36.extraordinary blaze, but what has been happening in Hackney where
:02:36. > :02:40.are? Gavin, after an hour of quiet,
:02:40. > :02:47.following several hours of stand-off between riot police and Reuters, in
:02:48. > :02:51.the last five - rioters, we have had five van loads of police, we
:02:51. > :02:54.understand they are making arrests now, pulling people out of a house,
:02:54. > :02:58.so not quiet yet on the streets of Hackney and the police helicopter
:02:58. > :03:02.has just gone up again as well. It's not across London, it's not
:03:02. > :03:08.London-wide, but in pockets of London, there is still trouble
:03:08. > :03:12.tonight, that big fire in Croydon raging in a furniture White House,
:03:12. > :03:16.that's one of the - furniture warehouse, that's one of the most
:03:16. > :03:20.dramatic events of the cast couple of hours. We understand there is
:03:21. > :03:24.still trouble in Tottenham, Peckham, around Clapham Junction, in
:03:24. > :03:29.Lewisham. Police very much here in massive numbers trying to
:03:29. > :03:35.batten down the hatches. You witnessed some of the trouble
:03:35. > :03:38.up close yourself, I think? Yes, I spent about three hours earlier this
:03:38. > :03:42.evening in a couple of streets here from where we are now at
:03:42. > :03:47.Hackney police station, and it was in microcosm what's happening across
:03:47. > :03:52.a lot of London, one long narrow street with rioters at one end and
:03:52. > :03:57.riot police at the other. We saw the tactics with the groups of youths,
:03:57. > :04:02.you could see them pulling T-shirts across their faces, smashing bottles
:04:02. > :04:07.to get ready, and smashing bricks on the pavement to they had manageable
:04:07. > :04:11.ammunition, setting cars and wheelie bins on fire. When we went behind
:04:11. > :04:16.police station lines, you could they were determined to control the
:04:16. > :04:21.situation by having the advantage of numbers, so maybe four dozen rioters
:04:21. > :04:25.but then there would have been riot police officers, dogs and
:04:25. > :04:30.mounted policemen, and for a while they pushed back and back the
:04:30. > :04:34.rioters and I have to say, as the riot police then pulled out of that
:04:34. > :04:39.street, I was talking to Diane Abbott, the local MP, and I could
:04:39. > :04:44.see over her shoulder looters western union as a car was on
:04:44. > :04:48.next to them. It's been surreal. Thanks for that. We'll be having
:04:48. > :04:51.live updates throughout the programme. Newsnight's Liz McKean
:04:51. > :04:56.has spent the day on the streets of London trying to figure out what if
:04:56. > :04:59.anything beyond criminality really lies behind the rioting. Here is
:04:59. > :05:05.here report. Rush hour in our capital city,
:05:06. > :05:10.traffic in Hackney is gridlocked, but not for the usual reasons. Gangs
:05:10. > :05:18.of youths are on the loose, attacking this police car.
:05:18. > :05:23.then chased away, this was one of numerous outbreaks of violence. At
:05:23. > :05:32.the same time, this was the scene in the borough of Peckham, more gangs,
:05:32. > :05:38.more fires, all in broad daylight. It wasn't just property at risk, in
:05:38. > :05:42.Lewisham, people flee their homes, clam bettering over roof -
:05:43. > :05:48.clambering over roofs, taking with them whatever they can hold. Back in
:05:48. > :05:52.Hackney, police set up roadblocks to try to contain the rioters. It might
:05:52. > :05:56.be rush hour, but the whole area has been shut down, all the businesses
:05:56. > :06:01.have closed early, police have sealed every entrance and exit
:06:01. > :06:04.Mare Street. A short time ago, the rioters were pushed down here,
:06:04. > :06:10.can see glass and debris on the road. They have been pushed right
:06:10. > :06:17.back, just over there. They swept through so fast, some people could
:06:17. > :06:22.only look on. Once again, JD Sports was a target for the looters. This
:06:22. > :06:27.chemist was also hit. I met the pharmacist, still appalled at
:06:27. > :06:32.attempt to wreck his livelihood. was across the road when they pulled
:06:32. > :06:36.the shutters, they went in several times. I pleaded with them, I said
:06:36. > :06:41.that's my life, it's all I have in this world, this is my - you know,
:06:41. > :06:45.yes. Did they listen to you? They listened to me, but the most
:06:45. > :06:52.disappointing thing about it, the police were only about six yards
:06:52. > :06:56.away, what is it - Could they what was happening? Yes, so the
:06:57. > :07:01.police were more scared of them than I was. Witnesses described large
:07:01. > :07:05.groups of mixed race youths, this was no spontaneous eruption of
:07:05. > :07:09.fury. This shopkeeper had been warned of trouble ahead, her
:07:09. > :07:15.customers told her, and she had time to shut up shop. It was
:07:15. > :07:18.in Enfield, we would hear it was happening in palmers Green, everyone
:07:18. > :07:21.knows, they are telling each other where it's going to happen. They are
:07:22. > :07:24.communicating between each other and they're just saying, look, this
:07:24. > :07:28.where it's going to be next. Obviously the youths are deciding
:07:28. > :07:33.where they're going to hit next. Were you prepared? Did you
:07:33. > :07:37.was coming? * yes, we had customers coming in and telling us,
:07:37. > :07:41.you better put the shutters down, because they're coming. Social
:07:41. > :07:45.media sites are streaming instant information for good and ill.
:07:45. > :07:49.Communities are warning each other of trouble, but rumours can quickly
:07:49. > :07:53.spread. The messaging service of blackberry phones has been commonly
:07:53. > :07:58.used by those intent on disorder, because it's private, keeping plans
:07:58. > :08:04.off the police radar. Today, the company said it would help with the
:08:04. > :08:08.rapidly expanding investigation. At Tottenham, where the trouble began
:08:08. > :08:16.on Saturday, the high road remained closed, you have to go behind it to
:08:16. > :08:22.see the extent of the damage, the fires are barely out. This film from
:08:22. > :08:26.a mobile phone was recorded by terrified residents, furious at
:08:26. > :08:31.those responsible, but unhappy with the police response. Everyone
:08:31. > :08:35.just doing their own was no one there to stop anything.
:08:35. > :08:39.What do you make of that? I think it's very wrong. What I'm seeing
:08:39. > :08:43.last night, all the police was in Enfield and no one was down here on
:08:43. > :08:47.Saturday night to help anyone here. It's unbelievable. You
:08:47. > :08:51.expect that to happen in this little community, it's horrible. The
:08:51. > :08:54.people who have lost most are those burnt out of their homes, with
:08:54. > :08:59.absolutely nothing, they have here to the council for help. 24
:08:59. > :09:04.man, who didn't want his face filmed, escaped from his flat
:09:04. > :09:09.his pregnant wife and baby daughter. I feel helpless, I had everything I
:09:09. > :09:14.want in my life, I never been on benefits, now I am being pushed on
:09:14. > :09:19.to them. I am not in the right of mind to go back to work, knowing
:09:19. > :09:22.that my baby hasn't got food to eat, nothing in the house. In what is
:09:22. > :09:25.becoming a persistent criticism of police, this man believes
:09:25. > :09:29.should have done more to save home. Not enough police there
:09:29. > :09:33.there should have been, and another really important point is every 2
:09:33. > :09:37.weeks, Tottenham have a home and there's hundreds of police, they
:09:37. > :09:41.contain thousands of people, all sorts of people, and that day, there
:09:41. > :09:47.was a Spurs game on at 5.15, there were police in the area
:09:47. > :09:50.lot of police in the area, where were they? Stuart later met
:09:50. > :09:55.Deputy Prime Minister, just back from holiday, the most senior
:09:55. > :10:00.politician to have visited the scene. It's thousands of people
:10:00. > :10:05.coming in for a normal Spurs match, it should have been contained and
:10:05. > :10:08.sorted out. We have about that, the police will do their
:10:09. > :10:12.review of what happened right on the High Street, lessons
:10:12. > :10:16.have to be learned, and then have to be learned, and then there's
:10:16. > :10:20.the independent investigation into the Duggan incident, the death of Mr
:10:20. > :10:25.Duggan, but the frustrating thing is everyone in the community has lots
:10:25. > :10:28.and lots of questions. Some politicians like ex-mayor
:10:28. > :10:32.Livingstone are drawing between the looting and public
:10:32. > :10:36.spending cutbacks. But others, including the Home Secretary,
:10:36. > :10:43.dismiss it as hooliganism. This journalist and youth worker watched
:10:43. > :10:48.the violence unfold. There's lot of cuts, I know our local CAB
:10:48. > :10:52.have lost staff, Connections has closed, that was a place where
:10:52. > :10:57.disaffected young people used to come, and the young offender workers
:10:57. > :11:00.in the area can't be doing the everyday things with them, so there
:11:00. > :11:04.is a group of young people that few people are engaging with,
:11:04. > :11:09.particularly since the cuts. Does that explain it? It doesn't
:11:09. > :11:14.the rioting, it was boisterous, mad behaviour that was all organised on
:11:14. > :11:18.their Blackberrys. For many in Tottenham, the arsonists have
:11:18. > :11:22.hijacked a burning grievance, the shooting by armed police of a young
:11:22. > :11:26.father last Thursday, his family are demanding answers. Police are under
:11:26. > :11:32.pressure to explain the circumstances in which Mark Duggan
:11:32. > :11:35.was shot dead, during what was supposed to be an arrest operation.
:11:35. > :11:41.The Commission is investigating his
:11:41. > :11:46.death, and is waiting for the results of a ballistics test to
:11:46. > :11:50.determine whether he opened fire on police first or not. Tonight, as the
:11:50. > :11:55.police defend their actions, they facial a worsening situation - face
:11:55. > :11:58.a worsening situation. In Croydon, a furniture store was one of several
:11:58. > :12:01.buildings set alight, while in the West Midlands are dealing
:12:02. > :12:05.with disturbances in the centre of Birmingham. Since Saturday,
:12:05. > :12:12.have been more than 200 arrests. This evening, the Prime Minister has
:12:12. > :12:16.abandoned his holiday to return to London. In the course of the day, we
:12:16. > :12:19.asked if a Home Office minister was available to come on the proofing,
:12:19. > :12:24.we were told no one was available and no one from the government can
:12:24. > :12:27.speak to us tonight. I am joined by Ken Livingstone, youth worker and
:12:28. > :12:30.former Conservative candidate for Hammersmith Shaun Bailey, the deputy
:12:30. > :12:33.chairman of the Metropolitan Police Federation John Tully, and
:12:33. > :12:39.Reverend Nims Obunge, who is from Tottenham. Why do you think this
:12:39. > :12:43.happened? I think there is clearly criminality, there is this real
:12:43. > :12:48.problem now with social network which allows people to come to these
:12:48. > :12:53.riots much more rapidly than they did in the early 1980s but I have
:12:54. > :12:57.been in about 18 London boroughs this year, spending a day in each,
:12:57. > :13:00.gone into colleges, young people there are so uncertain about their
:13:00. > :13:05.future. I went to a college Tottenham where half the kids
:13:05. > :13:11.thought they might not be able to afford to condition their course
:13:11. > :13:15.because of the EMA - That sounds like an excuse. We can have a
:13:15. > :13:19.of politicians come on and denounce criminality, we can do it again next
:13:19. > :13:23.summer when it happens or find a way to stop it. I think for the first
:13:23. > :13:27.time certainly in my lifetime, a generation are growing up completely
:13:27. > :13:29.uncertain about their future, whether they can get a home or job,
:13:29. > :13:36.they see politicians that don't engage with them. You have to
:13:36. > :13:41.crackdown on this, I got 7,000 police in London, if we hadn't got
:13:41. > :13:45.those, this would be out of control tonight. A generation to
:13:45. > :13:50.have no hope, can't get on with a job, can't afford to go to
:13:50. > :13:54.university? It's horrible to watch people make some mileage out of
:13:54. > :13:59.this, it's not about 7,000 police, these are young people not scared
:13:59. > :14:06.concerned about the police. If you, please what's happened, this
:14:06. > :14:11.have been communicating and picking up the places to riot, it's a set of
:14:11. > :14:15.kids doing this, most kids are not doing it. To try and link this to
:14:15. > :14:19.the cuts is electioneering. This a deeper issue about why we
:14:19. > :14:24.feel we can engage our children. Are you saying it's not connected
:14:24. > :14:27.the cuts at all? Absolutely not. These kids aren't talking about
:14:27. > :14:30.at all. have been warning the government all
:14:30. > :14:34.year there was the potential for this. We saw this the last time we
:14:34. > :14:40.went through a real downturn in the economy in the early 1980s, it's not
:14:40. > :14:43.an excuse, but we'd be stupid not recognise it's part of the cause.
:14:43. > :14:47.Ken, it is always the business of whoever's in government, red or
:14:47. > :14:51.blue, to look after the future of children and they try to do that,
:14:51. > :14:54.but you have to be careful that you don't excuse their behaviour, you
:14:54. > :14:57.must understand the vast majority young people had nothing to do with
:14:57. > :15:01.this and the vast majority of young people who are involved are just
:15:01. > :15:05.criminals. If you notice, on the BB network, some of my young people
:15:05. > :15:09.showed me this morning, they are picking particular shops. Sports
:15:09. > :15:13.shops, for example. Yes, and that shows you it's organised
:15:13. > :15:17.particular manner. You can't get over the fact that the last time we
:15:17. > :15:21.had rioting consistently like this was in the early 1980s, in the
:15:21. > :15:25.depths of recession, it's come And it's not unique here, it happens
:15:25. > :15:29.in America, it happens in Europe. The government's got to have a
:15:29. > :15:34.programme to make certain you catch the criminals, we've got to stop
:15:34. > :15:38.this nonsense they're going to get rid of 2,000 police in London next
:15:38. > :15:42.year, about you have to give a young generation the hope there's
:15:42. > :15:45.something for there. You're in that community where it started, but it
:15:45. > :15:51.started with a peaceful protest. What do you see as the root causes
:15:51. > :15:55.for this? Forgive me, these are good friends of mine, let's politics
:15:55. > :16:02.out of the door, I need to be clear about this. I was there, I saw
:16:02. > :16:07.beginnings of it. And this is not a response just to what happened on
:16:07. > :16:14.that day. It is important, with the families of Mark Duggan,
:16:14. > :16:20.and I heard their cry for clarity of what went wrong in relation to the
:16:20. > :16:23.situation. The shooting? Yes, the shooting, they wanted answers, they
:16:24. > :16:28.felt they hadn't been engaged effectively. Unfortunately, this
:16:28. > :16:30.expanded, extended itself for long. How did that actually happen?
:16:30. > :16:35.They want legitimate answers to legitimate questions, everybody
:16:35. > :16:40.does. How did that turn into people looting pairs of trainers from
:16:40. > :16:44.shops? We have to be clear about this, it didn't start with looting
:16:44. > :16:47.pairs of trainers. There are no excuses, but we have to understand
:16:47. > :16:52.some reasons here. What we've got to understand, some of these young
:16:52. > :16:56.people feel they have got no in society and they don't feel
:16:56. > :17:00.they're risking anything, but I'll tell you what happened at that time,
:17:00. > :17:04.four or five hours waiting outside the police station, that was what
:17:04. > :17:08.happened, beyond - at the end of which, the family said, we're going,
:17:08. > :17:15.we're not getting our answers, we're going. So some young people had
:17:15. > :17:20.already BB'ed, as we heard shaun say, and had come in. It looks to
:17:21. > :17:26.outsiders as if this is almost recreational rioting, they're having
:17:26. > :17:30.fun. Can I say this, let's get this right. The first thing that was
:17:30. > :17:33.destroyed were two police cars, I saw that happen. They were
:17:33. > :17:38.into the centre and got burnt up. The next thing that
:17:38. > :17:40.there was chaos on our streets. It escalated. Are the police
:17:40. > :17:45.particular target? Are you that relations with the police are
:17:45. > :17:50.still bad? The relations with the police need some fixing, evidently
:17:50. > :17:54.so. Tottenham and Haringey and with our police and young people,
:17:54. > :17:58.have been some directions, we've moved forward, but we're not where
:17:58. > :18:02.we need to be. John, do you that relations with the police are
:18:02. > :18:07.still not good for many of these young people, they feel they
:18:07. > :18:09.little stake in society and burning police cars is a port of call? Most
:18:09. > :18:14.definitely, there has been an enormous move forward from the
:18:15. > :18:21.1980s, the late 1980s, when there was a broken relationship between
:18:21. > :18:25.ourselves as a police service and - It doesn't look like that. It looks
:18:25. > :18:28.terrible, like the police don't a grip. I disagree, I think an
:18:28. > :18:34.enormous amount of effort has put in by the police service to
:18:34. > :18:40.engage with the local communities, each ward within the bus have their
:18:40. > :18:43.own community police teams - between the boroughs. But from Harlesden to
:18:43. > :18:47.Croydon, something going off Birmingham as well, there's pockets
:18:47. > :18:50.of this all over London. They may have been engaged for 25 years or
:18:50. > :18:55.more, but it doesn't seem to be working and people are asking,
:18:55. > :19:01.are the police? The police are there, they're doing their utmost to
:19:01. > :19:06.contain it, there are finite resources, before I was here this
:19:06. > :19:10.evening, I was at the control centre in Lambeth, an enormous amount of
:19:10. > :19:14.effort is being put in by senior commanders and the people out on the
:19:15. > :19:18.streets, the people I represent, the boys and girls doing the day to day
:19:18. > :19:23.job, who have to face what you're seeing on your screens, and they
:19:23. > :19:26.really dedicated to that job. you think morale in the police has
:19:26. > :19:30.taken a big hit? We have seen the resignation of two senior officers
:19:30. > :19:34.recently, we know the World scandal and all these
:19:34. > :19:39.things. We're heading for three commissioners in four years, that
:19:39. > :19:43.doesn't help. You've got the scandals, the threat, last year
:19:43. > :19:47.1,000 jobs were left vacant of the freeze on recruitment,
:19:47. > :19:52.have this proposal to cut 1,900 people, but I have to say, there has
:19:52. > :19:56.been a sea change in policing. years ago, it was like an army of
:19:56. > :20:02.occupation, the black youth talked about rebellion. The world has
:20:03. > :20:07.dramatically moved on. We have one tragic incident, and I have to say,
:20:07. > :20:12.the Trident team have arrested well over 100 armed criminals without
:20:12. > :20:17.firing a shot. Something went wrong. Doesn't that undercut your
:20:17. > :20:23.that there are political reasons for this? It sounds like simply I don't
:20:23. > :20:27.knowerry, doesn't - yoberry, doesn't it? It's not the fault of the
:20:27. > :20:33.police. Policing has had a sea change in this city. Why is it the
:20:33. > :20:36.fault of the government? I was up in Tottenham, which has had a 9% cut
:20:36. > :20:41.nearly in its government grant, the youth centres are closing, people
:20:41. > :20:44.are seeing all the sort of things they used to rely on going. The
:20:44. > :20:48.lads who are lads who are rioting, would they
:20:48. > :20:51.otherwise be in a youth centre? People are going to doubt that. We
:20:51. > :20:56.have been talking about youth services, a 75% cut in youth
:20:56. > :21:00.services, that's real. The danger is if the press or politicians look for
:21:00. > :21:03.one simple answer, we're making a big mistake, we're looking at a
:21:03. > :21:08.catalogue of issues and potential failures, we're looking at something
:21:08. > :21:11.that needs to be looked at more robustly, we're looking at the
:21:11. > :21:15.challenges some of our young people have had and if we suggest this is
:21:16. > :21:20.down to cuts, we're making a big mistake. For me, one of the driving
:21:20. > :21:23.issues is in the last 10-15 years, we have done so much value about
:21:23. > :21:27.their rights but little about their responsibilities. What I would
:21:27. > :21:34.to the young people right now, are attacking the community you come
:21:34. > :21:40.from, and people at home, in my opinion, a large part of it is about
:21:40. > :21:44.yoberry. What about closing youth centres? The comment that most of
:21:44. > :21:49.these kids would be in a youth centre, you've have to look at that,
:21:49. > :21:53.but our youth feel they can take this risk and have nothing to use.
:21:53. > :21:57.Two things, some of them feel genuinely disconnected, but we've
:21:57. > :22:01.encouraged them to take control of the world, we have abdicated power
:22:01. > :22:06.to young people. In that sense, you think they are more violent
:22:06. > :22:11.because they are more rootless and less fixed in a moral sense? Yes,
:22:11. > :22:14.we have been trying to replace people families with welfare,
:22:14. > :22:20.need to go back to the family structure. You mentioned at the
:22:20. > :22:24.start, if we can't get it right this year, we can't get it right next
:22:24. > :22:28.year. That seems like a nod to the Olympics. People around the world
:22:29. > :22:33.will think it's shameful if one of the greatest cities in the world
:22:33. > :22:37.can't manage to keep the peace. There is a layer of issues here.
:22:37. > :22:42.There is the potential, with cuts, for this revolt against that,
:22:42. > :22:47.there is also the problem that we've got a policing morale demoralised,
:22:47. > :22:49.the threat that - the best part of 2,000 police are going to go the
:22:49. > :22:53.minute the Olympics is out of the way, and you have to have a
:22:53. > :22:56.focus on this, the Mayor and Prime Minister have to get a grip
:22:56. > :23:02.and be seen to speak to everybody, not just an elite at the top of
:23:02. > :23:06.society. What do you want from them when they come back? The Mayor is
:23:06. > :23:09.his way back, the will be back tomorrow. We need
:23:09. > :23:12.commitment they're going to support the police and the way they're
:23:12. > :23:16.going to support us is by implementing their 20% cuts,
:23:17. > :23:20.implementing the Windsor review pay and conditions, which will drive
:23:20. > :23:23.morale even further down to what it is at the moment, increasing our
:23:23. > :23:26.pension subscriptions. People understand that this is a deep
:23:26. > :23:30.concern to the police, but there's a situation on the streets
:23:30. > :23:34.which suggests that that's a kind of threat, if you don't pay us what we
:23:34. > :23:37.want, there's going to be more rioting? I don't think it is
:23:37. > :23:40.threat. It's a concern. The people represent are really concerned about
:23:41. > :23:43.their futures, considering whether they should leave the police
:23:43. > :23:47.as a result of those cuts and changes, but what I have to
:23:47. > :23:50.emphasise is the dedication of the people who are on the
:23:50. > :23:54.tonight and have been on the since Thursday is without question.
:23:54. > :23:57.What do you want from the Prime Minister tomorrow? What I want from
:23:57. > :24:02.the Prime Minister is to let everybody know that there is a plan
:24:02. > :24:06.to sort this out. I don't want to jump to one conclusion and
:24:06. > :24:09.at the thing, there is a gambit look at, but what I don't want
:24:09. > :24:13.politicians is for them to use it forward their agenda and for
:24:13. > :24:18.government departments to suggest they don't get a cut, this wouldn't
:24:18. > :24:22.happen. Do you not worry, where these guys? Why wasn't the Prime
:24:22. > :24:25.Minister back earlier to you? This is something the media have
:24:25. > :24:29.most childish about. Do you David Cameron is going to go down
:24:29. > :24:35.there with a shield in Tottenham and Hackney? We have a mechanism,
:24:35. > :24:39.big sophisticated society. Jury but we need leaders, where are
:24:39. > :24:44.they? We have all manner of people to deal with the situation. The
:24:44. > :24:47.point is this - The Prime is coming back from holiday, and the
:24:47. > :24:50.Mayor of London. They are not the people who will put this problem
:24:51. > :24:54.right. This problem is in our communities, in our economy. What
:24:54. > :24:58.are our young people going to do a job, what are our
:24:58. > :25:04.going to do to control the behaviour of young people? If we weren't
:25:04. > :25:08.having a riot, we would be smearing young people's names elsewhere. We
:25:08. > :25:13.have lost control of our young people. Do you see a situation
:25:13. > :25:17.where the army could be involved? think the army is a bit
:25:17. > :25:21.overstretched in Afghanistan at the moment. I find myself agreeing with
:25:21. > :25:24.Shaun. Kids have to have the prospect of a job. At the moment,
:25:24. > :25:28.the majority have no guarantee that's coming. What young men want
:25:28. > :25:32.is to have a job, which means they can support a wife and family,
:25:32. > :25:35.restore those sort of family values Shaun is talking about. At the
:25:35. > :25:39.moment, a lot of young people through the system haven't got
:25:39. > :25:42.confidence. I want to raise with you again the question of the
:25:42. > :25:46.Olympics. People will be very worried about the Olympics, and
:25:46. > :25:51.there's a possibility of a terrorist threat on top of that, and public
:25:51. > :25:55.order and more people coming to our country. This is why politicians
:25:55. > :26:02.have to - Shaun is right, not coming back to run the system,
:26:02. > :26:06.but when I was in Singapore and the bombs went off - Which is when the
:26:06. > :26:11.London bid was won. have to be there, articulating and
:26:11. > :26:14.reassuring, you can't do that on the phone, you have to be on the street.
:26:14. > :26:19.One specific question about the Duggan family, would it help if
:26:19. > :26:24.there was an apology? They there will be an inquiry, we will
:26:24. > :26:29.find out eventually, but it won't be tomorrow or the next day, it will
:26:29. > :26:32.take some time. Let me be clear, we have the IPCC, who have had
:26:32. > :26:36.connections with the family, and that's being worked through. It's
:26:36. > :26:39.important that communities feel reassured that the IPCC will be
:26:39. > :26:43.transparent, it's important that truth gets out into communities,
:26:43. > :26:46.it's important that holistically, as Londoners, we say this should not
:26:46. > :26:49.continue, but the reality is this, until we are sure - and it is
:26:49. > :26:55.important that there is an appropriate response from the
:26:55. > :26:58.police, at the point in time, if the IPCC say there is a concern, then
:26:58. > :27:02.the police need to give an appropriate response, to local
:27:02. > :27:06.communities, because if trust is not there, then this can get worse
:27:06. > :27:12.don't want it to. We'll leave it there, thank you all very much.
:27:12. > :27:16.Well, TV satellite trucks to be pulled away from trouble spots
:27:16. > :27:19.across London tonight because of security, but we are joined by
:27:19. > :27:23.Guardian journalist Paul Lewis has followed these disturbances
:27:23. > :27:27.the start, on the streets of Hackney. What are you seeing?
:27:27. > :27:34.Hackney has really been some of the most shocking scenes I've seen over
:27:34. > :27:38.the last 72 hours. The Pembury estate was the epicentre, and it
:27:38. > :27:42.really taken over by youths burning cars, forming flaming barricades and
:27:42. > :27:46.really taking complete control of the estate, for about 3
:27:46. > :27:50.would say, they had of the area, and police could do
:27:50. > :27:55.nothing. I saw isolated police being attacked in their cars,
:27:55. > :27:59.the roof of the police car, smashing it with bricks and police officers
:28:00. > :28:05.still inside, others isolated and those journalists who are in here
:28:05. > :28:11.are being attacked, a colleague of mine I saw thrown to the floor and
:28:11. > :28:16.beaten. It is really a shockingly chaotic situation here. Is it
:28:16. > :28:20.actually - it sounds like worse than last night or the night before?
:28:21. > :28:24.think it changed actually, it's very easy to talk about generalised
:28:24. > :28:28.rioting and looting but what happened on Saturday night I felt
:28:28. > :28:33.was more political, even when were ransacking shops, they were
:28:33. > :28:38.still talking about Mark Duggan's death. Last night again it changed,
:28:38. > :28:43.it was property theft predominantly, no attempts at confrontations with
:28:43. > :28:48.police but gangs roaming the streets, going from shop to shop,
:28:48. > :28:52.taking what they can. Tonight it has changed again, there is quite a bad
:28:52. > :28:56.turn, a feeling of self-destruction almost, with people destroying
:28:56. > :29:01.own communities, and actually one of the most disappointing things I've
:29:01. > :29:07.seen just in the last 15 minutes here in kingsland Road, in the
:29:07. > :29:11.centre of Hackney, is clashes between residents. I saw a group of
:29:11. > :29:15.about 100 Turkish/Kurdish men with sticks and bottles chasing another
:29:15. > :29:20.group of youths away, saying that their shops had been looted and they
:29:20. > :29:26.were fighting back. That kind of intercommunal violence is system
:29:26. > :29:31.that I've not seen yet and I've been here for 3 days. A final thought,
:29:31. > :29:35.how orchestrated is all that, and how random? Are they really using
:29:35. > :29:40.messaging and paging to get this organised in some way? They are,
:29:40. > :29:44.absolutely. This kind of mythical sense that somehow Twitter and
:29:44. > :29:50.Facebook are being used, that's not the case. They're using closed
:29:50. > :29:53.networks, BBM messenger. We at The Guardian set up an account to
:29:53. > :29:58.receive these messages, and they are announcing locations and areas,
:29:58. > :30:04.are being circulated among closed networks on Blackberry
:30:04. > :30:08.phones, people are turning up, choosing back streets andallies
:30:08. > :30:12.before arriving at these areas, before appearing at these
:30:12. > :30:16.pre-planned destinations, so to that degree, there is a level of
:30:16. > :30:20.orchestration. News just in, has been looting in Woolwich High
:30:20. > :30:24.Street, several hundred young people said to be involved, but there's
:30:24. > :30:27.nothing new in rioting in Britain, many of today's pictures have
:30:27. > :30:31.reminded people of what happened in our inner cities in the 1980s but
:30:31. > :30:38.are there really any useful parallels?
:30:38. > :30:42.The events are three decades old, but the images are still haunting.
:30:42. > :30:48.1985's riots in the Broadwater Farm area of Tottenham were linked to the
:30:48. > :30:51.death of a black woman during police search, then a policeman was
:30:51. > :30:59.killed during the disturbances. Violent disorder and inner city
:30:59. > :31:04.riots were a feature of parts of Britain in the early 80s, in Toxteth
:31:04. > :31:08.in 1981 and Brixton later the same year. Are today's tensions as
:31:08. > :31:12.serious or as widespread as then? There are some similarities. In the
:31:12. > :31:17.early 1980s, Britain had a contracting economy, high youth
:31:17. > :31:19.unemployment and government cuts, but it was also a period of sharp
:31:19. > :31:23.ideological differences between left and right and different
:31:23. > :31:29.interpretations of the cause of the unrest. I grew up in the 30s with
:31:29. > :31:36.an unemployed father. He didn't riot, he got on his bike and looked
:31:36. > :31:42.for work. So are the similarities superficial or even misleading? Or
:31:42. > :31:46.does the anger of the 1980s really resemble the anger of today? Is a
:31:46. > :31:51.generation too young to remember those riots experiencing new causes
:31:51. > :31:55.of resentment or simply engaging in opportunistic criminal acts? With
:31:55. > :32:00.their thoughts on what lessons if any we can learn from the riots
:32:00. > :32:05.the 1980s, I'm joined by Darcus Howe and former so far MP and government
:32:05. > :32:13.minister Edwina Currie. Darcus, you see any echoes of the 1980s?
:32:13. > :32:22.Not echoes, only a continuation, and these huge moments, which began
:32:22. > :32:28.the 80s, and then you toodle along, and then another explosion and what
:32:28. > :32:35.strikes me is the absolute ignorance of the punters, who have no idea
:32:35. > :32:38.what's going among young blacks, they have no idea what are thinking,
:32:38. > :32:43.they have no idea when they are about to explode. Did you know?
:32:43. > :32:49.you have a sense that this was going to happen? Absolutely. Why? I
:32:49. > :32:57.have a grandson, who is 15, and who cannot count the number of times he
:32:57. > :33:03.was stopped and searched. And every time he tells it to you, his
:33:03. > :33:08.intonation changeses. And that is what's been going on behind
:33:08. > :33:13.backs of society, this constant stopping and searching of young
:33:13. > :33:17.blacks. The gratuitously. Let bring in Edwina Currie, that is
:33:17. > :33:24.echo of the 1980s, isn't it? don't think it's anything like the
:33:24. > :33:27.1980s. In those days, I was in Birmingham, and we had the riots in
:33:27. > :33:32.Hamsworth, which you haven't mentioned. In those days,
:33:32. > :33:35.a lot of racism, it was almost respectable to be racist, and
:33:35. > :33:38.of institutions were and the youngsters I think in many ways were
:33:38. > :33:41.justified in their complaint. They weren't justified in their
:33:41. > :33:47.behaviour, that's a different matter, but since then, an enormous
:33:47. > :33:51.amount of effort has been put in by people like Darcus and many others
:33:51. > :33:56.that we have interviewed tonight to improve those communities and give
:33:56. > :34:03.everybody a reasonable chance. What we have got now, we heard Shaun
:34:03. > :34:07.earlier called it yobbery, with robbery, kids who are taking the
:34:07. > :34:10.opportunity to go and steal, they are covering it up with this
:34:10. > :34:13.political cloak of invisibility. We all have to take responsibility
:34:13. > :34:17.our actions. The police have to take responsibility for their actions,
:34:17. > :34:21.but so, I think, do these young people, whatever their
:34:21. > :34:25.and colour, they are responsible for what they are doing. Darcus, I take
:34:25. > :34:30.it you accept that, they are responsible for what they are doing,
:34:30. > :34:36.there's no excuse for it. I'm not making any excuse for you, I'm
:34:36. > :34:43.telling you, quietly and seriously, what side I'm on. Am I on the side
:34:43. > :34:49.of my grandson? Absolutely yes. We brought him up, he's a decent
:34:49. > :34:55.fellow, constantly, at first he thinks, oh, I'm now being initiated,
:34:55. > :35:01.what happens, a policeman stopped me, for what? You give me the 20
:35:01. > :35:04.seconds before you stopped, nothing. And they keep doing it. It is as
:35:04. > :35:09.though they're drawn to humiliating a particular race in a particular
:35:09. > :35:13.place. Do you not think, to pick up Edwina Currie's point though, that
:35:13. > :35:18.things have changed a lot in the past 30 years? Racism is
:35:18. > :35:24.not respectable now and there tinge of it then which was to some
:35:24. > :35:28.people regarded as okay, and that's gone, that has changed. Edwina
:35:28. > :35:37.fine person, and she knows that I think that about her, but I would
:35:37. > :35:42.never listen to Edwina describe how much racism there is at any given
:35:42. > :35:46.society - let me finish, she has never known, and she will never know
:35:46. > :35:51.Edwina, you will never know, other words white people probably
:35:51. > :35:56.just don't get what a 15-year-old black kid in this country feels.
:35:56. > :36:00.With all due respect to Darcus, think he demeans himself, as a very
:36:00. > :36:02.responsible and dignified man, by defending what is totally
:36:03. > :36:07.indefensible. The behaviour of the people that we've seen on the
:36:07. > :36:11.streets, whatever their background or colour, and no doubt there are
:36:11. > :36:15.all sorts involved, particularly on Saturday and over the weekend,
:36:15. > :36:19.are destroying the communities they live in themselves.
:36:19. > :36:23.destroy the businesses that are owned by black people, destroying
:36:23. > :36:28.the homes of black people, leaving people completely bereft and
:36:28. > :36:32.bewildered, their own sisters, brothers, mothers and uncles and
:36:32. > :36:36.aunts, not the behaviour of a group of people with any kind of morality.
:36:36. > :36:41.The problem is not they're disconnected from jobs, but they're
:36:41. > :36:44.disconnected from any real sense right or wrong, any sense that says,
:36:44. > :36:52.what's mine is mine, and what's yours is yours, and I don't touch
:36:52. > :36:59.it. These kids are saying, "Haye, we can have the trainers my mum won't
:36:59. > :37:03.buy me or the latest Blackberry, can just go and take it". As a
:37:03. > :37:10.former MP, she knows where the thieves are and how many of them
:37:10. > :37:16.in prison now. I do not wish to make a point on this, but young blacks,
:37:16. > :37:23.fine citizens of this country to be, are constantly being% recruited by
:37:23. > :37:28.the police. I have - persecuted by the police. I have never been on
:37:28. > :37:31.bail for 10 years of my life and I would never give up, and what I say
:37:31. > :37:36.to them is you will get insurance for burning the place down
:37:36. > :37:41.and let's go away. Thank you very much. The trouble has spread
:37:41. > :37:45.beyond London to Birmingham, as we said, tonight so our reporter Claire
:37:45. > :37:50.Marshall has spent the evening in Birmingham city centre. What's been
:37:50. > :37:54.happening? I've just come back the city centre, it is
:37:54. > :37:59.extraordinary, it hasn't reached heights of London, but everywhere I
:37:59. > :38:03.went, I saw people looting chemists, mobile phone shops, banks, a cash
:38:03. > :38:07.point machine almost entirely - almost pulled out of a shop. They
:38:07. > :38:12.didn't seem to really be troubled by the thought of potentially
:38:12. > :38:16.identifying themselves, there was a real sense of menace, a lot of
:38:16. > :38:19.people who were extremely scared, I spoke to one girl, just 18, she and
:38:19. > :38:25.her boyfriend had been coming into Birmingham on the bus to go for
:38:25. > :38:30.night out, the bus had pulled up the traffic lights, a mob who were
:38:30. > :38:34.attacking a shop started hurling rocks at the bus and breaking the
:38:34. > :38:37.windows. A lot of people saying have seen mindless violence. A few
:38:37. > :38:41.people have - not supported the consequences of what is happening
:38:41. > :38:48.here, but who have some sympathy why it's happening. One young lady,
:38:48. > :38:52.an outreach worker, said, "I'm not a thief but I feel a sense of anger".
:38:52. > :38:55.She said young people are feeling frustration that they have no
:38:55. > :39:00.opportunities, and this is out of a sense of that, that they're
:39:00. > :39:03.never going to see anything better in their lives. Another young girl
:39:03. > :39:07.called the police racist and described this as some kind
:39:08. > :39:11.that would go on. Just coming back to the BBC offices, we're
:39:11. > :39:19.building here, which is the equivalent of Bond Street in London,
:39:19. > :39:24.the mailbox extremely well - classy shops here, the Armani shop had been
:39:24. > :39:29.looted and police were trying move them out. They seem to be
:39:29. > :39:34.moving around trying to get a hands, but we say in one police as
:39:34. > :39:37.reporters, and the looters come back. There are a lot of police, we
:39:37. > :39:41.they seem to be trying to move around, to try to do what they can,
:39:41. > :39:45.but it's still going on. Certainly no signs of it stopping here at the
:39:45. > :39:49.moment. Thanks, Claire. We're getting reports tonight that Essex
:39:49. > :39:53.and Suffolk police will be sending some of their personnel to help out
:39:53. > :39:55.the Metropolitan Police in London. We'll return to the disorder across
:39:55. > :40:00.London at the end of the programme but there has been another
:40:00. > :40:03.story today, financial markets around the world plunged yet again
:40:03. > :40:06.despite the news that the Central Bank was now buying Spanish
:40:06. > :40:10.and Italian bonds and further attempts by government leaders to
:40:10. > :40:17.calm the storm. So is the West heading for a second recession and
:40:17. > :40:22.what can be done to stop this? Verity on today's bloodbath.
:40:22. > :40:25.Where is the world economy heading? Stock markets went into panic today
:40:25. > :40:31.that we might be heading for second global recession. Is anyone
:40:31. > :40:36.in control? Or is this a runaway train? We are not in an ordinary
:40:36. > :40:41.recession and the turn great recession as people have been
:40:41. > :40:46.calling it is misleading, it's not like a bad flu but more like
:40:46. > :40:49.pneumonia. Since the age of steam, political leaders have been told by
:40:49. > :40:52.their economic advisers that they're heading for a slump, they
:40:52. > :40:56.know how to change direction, are crucial levers of commission
:40:56. > :41:02.policy, cutting interest rates, slashing taxes or printing money,
:41:02. > :41:10.but two years after the last slump, are there any levers left to pull?
:41:10. > :41:16.The Keynesian way is to boost public spending. Any chance of that? It's
:41:16. > :41:20.very difficult, this is what we have been doing over the past few years,
:41:20. > :41:23.is governments have jumped in and made up the private consumption, now
:41:23. > :41:28.we see the consequences of that, credit ratings are at risk,
:41:28. > :41:33.investors are reluctant to invest any longer in these economies, so we
:41:33. > :41:37.can't keep doing that. In the United States you saw that. Governments
:41:37. > :41:42.could cut taxes now, then raise them later. That idea is gaining support,
:41:42. > :41:46.but it's not easy to square with austerity. The big fear in the
:41:46. > :41:50.market is we're going from fiscal stimulus to massive fiscal
:41:50. > :41:54.retrenchment in a very short space of time, when the economy is already
:41:54. > :41:57.very weak. If they can limit the near term tightening and maybe be
:41:57. > :42:01.clearer about what they're do over the medium term, then
:42:01. > :42:06.think that might help confidence to some extent. But in spite of
:42:06. > :42:11.years of fiscal stimulus, Wall Street plunged by 6% today in panic
:42:11. > :42:17.selling. The price of oil has fallen by $13 since the start of the week.
:42:17. > :42:20.The most powerful leaders in the world are exasperated. The gridlock
:42:20. > :42:26.in Washington over the last several months has not been constructive,
:42:26. > :42:31.say the least. We knew from the outset that a prolonged debate over
:42:32. > :42:36.the debt ceiling, a debate where the threat 6 default was used as
:42:36. > :42:40.bargaining chip, could do enormous damage to our economy and the
:42:40. > :42:44.world's. That threat, coming after a string of economic disruptions in
:42:44. > :42:46.Europe, Japan and the Middle East, has now riled the markets. The
:42:46. > :42:50.first response to a first response to a slowdown
:42:50. > :42:54.be to cut interest rates, in the and UK, that lever has been pulled
:42:54. > :42:59.as far as it can go. The ECB now could, because they have raised
:42:59. > :43:03.rates this year, and they could take the overnight borrowing rate back
:43:03. > :43:08.down to single digits, and that may happen. We're getting to a point
:43:08. > :43:12.where either the market start to find a base or policy
:43:12. > :43:16.makers will be increasingly desperate to find ways to stabilise
:43:16. > :43:19.things, but in this vicious circle, it's hard for them to do so. The US
:43:19. > :43:23.and UK have effectively printed close to half a trillion pounds
:43:24. > :43:28.since the banking crisis struck, if they pull that lever again, would
:43:28. > :43:32.fuel inflation? This is a really question, how big should
:43:32. > :43:36.quantitative easing be, that's what they call the printing money,
:43:36. > :43:39.buying bonds that the Federal Reserve has done and the ECB has
:43:39. > :43:44.done through the back door. Frankly, they need to come out and say,
:43:44. > :43:49.trying to raise the inflation rates, we have targeted, we will do it in
:43:49. > :43:54.unlimited amounts until we achieve our target, and when inflation gets
:43:54. > :43:58.on, interest rates will go up, we'll be able to use normal monetary
:43:58. > :44:02.policy. Believe it or not, this is what Western economists have been
:44:02. > :44:06.advising Japan for a long time and when it comes to us doing the same
:44:06. > :44:12.thing, we say wait, that's a little scary. I'm afraid it's a risk that
:44:12. > :44:15.has to be taken. That obviously the easiest option, but it's not
:44:15. > :44:20.consistent with the mandates Central Banks, particularly not here
:44:20. > :44:24.in Europe, the ECB has a clear mandate to achieve stability, so
:44:24. > :44:30.that would be a breach of the treaty. If the ECB would embark on
:44:30. > :44:33.an inflationary policy. This is also the last thing that they will do.
:44:33. > :44:38.Central Banks and governments have spent decades trying to tame
:44:38. > :44:43.inflation, denouncing it as the greatest of economic evils, it's the
:44:43. > :44:46.mark of the extremity of this debt crisis that it's now seen by others,
:44:46. > :44:50.economists and private investors, as the most realistic hope we have.
:44:50. > :44:56.Come back inflation, all is forgiven.
:44:56. > :45:01.That was Andy Verity reporting on the other big story today, more on
:45:01. > :45:05.our top story, more from Liz, the latest? Without doubt,
:45:05. > :45:09.during the time we have been on air, the situation is getting worse but
:45:09. > :45:14.it's so fast moving that you can't be entirely sure of all the reports
:45:14. > :45:18.we're hearing. The latest is of fire in Notting Hill in West London,
:45:18. > :45:23.where no less than David used to live, before he became Prime
:45:23. > :45:31.Minister. We're also hearing well as the fire that's still on in
:45:31. > :45:36.Croydon, there are reports of youths rampaging in Clapham, South London,
:45:36. > :45:41.even with petrol bombs, according to a cameraman at the scene. There are
:45:41. > :45:45.still problems in other districts of London. We should say, it's not
:45:45. > :45:49.right across London at all, these are small areas, but where they're
:45:49. > :45:52.happening, it's seething and the atmosphere is extremely difficult,
:45:52. > :46:00.not just for police but for residents and business owners, so
:46:00. > :46:04.we're seeing problems in Ilfor did,, step any green in East London, and
:46:04. > :46:09.Lewisham still. There's a lot of anger out there, really directed at
:46:09. > :46:13.two targets, certainly the mainly very young youths who are
:46:13. > :46:17.responsible for it, who are running around looting, causing damage
:46:17. > :46:22.stealing things, setting fires, but anger too at the police, and
:46:22. > :46:26.is this view that really the police, they might be dealing
:46:26. > :46:30.difficult situation, but they didn't respond quickly enough, nor are
:46:30. > :46:34.meeting - Sorry to interrupt, these are some pictures from Birmingham
:46:34. > :46:37.just in, as you can see, the police with the shields on the
:46:37. > :46:42.streets of Birmingham tonight. And that situation has been spreading,
:46:42. > :46:48.and we heard earlier there had nine arrests there, different
:46:48. > :46:51.things, all of youths, some of them juveniles, I think six of the nine
:46:51. > :46:56.juveniles, this is what we're seeing in London too, very young people
:46:56. > :47:06.getting involved. Thanks very much. Let's have a look at the front pages
:47:06. > :47:19.
:47:19. > :47:22.of tomorrow. of tomorrow.
:47:22. > :47:26.Full-scale alert as violent riots Full-scale alert as violent riots
:47:26. > :47:29.spread across capital. That's all from Newsnight tonight, I will be