:00:09. > :00:11.Tonight parts of our society are Tonight parts of our society are
:00:11. > :00:13.sick, according to the Prime sick, according to the Prime
:00:13. > :00:19.Minister. It comes after three men were left dead this morning after
:00:19. > :00:23.night of rioting and unrest. Anything I ever wanted done,
:00:23. > :00:28.always ask Haroon to sort it out me, not my eldest or my daughter,
:00:28. > :00:31.but my youngest. And they killed him. The Prime Minister says
:00:31. > :00:36.is something fundamentally wrong with the country. There are pockets
:00:36. > :00:42.of our society that are not just broken, but frankly sick. So
:00:42. > :00:47.drives the looters? Greed? Hopelessness? No moral sense? Look
:00:47. > :00:53.around here, what have they got? They got nothing. That doesn't give
:00:53. > :00:55.them a right to smash the place up. They was talk to go us. Have I
:00:55. > :00:58.condoned it? Do you think it's that someone is shot in
:00:58. > :01:01.nothing? We will be Sayeeda Warsi and Labour's Diane
:01:01. > :01:05.Abbott if they agree with David Cameron's diagnosis of a
:01:05. > :01:08.society and what medicine they prescribe. Residents pull together
:01:08. > :01:13.to defend and protect their neighbourhoods, but is there
:01:13. > :01:18.danger of vigilantism? We ain't having all these people coming up
:01:18. > :01:23.here and ruining our place, right, burning our town down, right? We are
:01:23. > :01:33.going to make a stand. And markets dive and bank shares plunge as fears
:01:33. > :01:33.
:01:33. > :01:37.grow about France's debt. started running hard today to
:01:37. > :01:42.re-establish law and order the initiative on the riots in
:01:42. > :01:48.English cities. Announcing a fightback, he declared that in areas
:01:48. > :01:51.of our city, they are in some way sick. This comes amid moves to
:01:51. > :01:55.withdraw social housing from convicted rioters and the Mayor
:01:55. > :01:58.called for planned police cuts to be reconsidered. Disturbances continued
:01:59. > :02:02.last night in many areas. said rioters brought shame on the
:02:02. > :02:08.streets of Manchester, with shops smashed and goods taken and
:02:08. > :02:13.they described serious violence in Liverpool. A police station was fire
:02:13. > :02:16.bombed in Nottingham and there was unrest in Leicester and Gloucester.
:02:16. > :02:20.Tonight in the capital it is reported to be largely quiet but
:02:20. > :02:24.England's second largest city perhaps more tense than most. The
:02:24. > :02:28.death of three young Muslims in Birmingham is being treated
:02:28. > :02:31.murder by the police. That's we begin, in a city with a history
:02:31. > :02:37.of ethnic violence and which the edge tonight. Liz MacKean spent
:02:37. > :02:41.In Birmingham tonight residents are In Birmingham tonight residents are
:02:41. > :02:46.being asked to trust the police to keep the streets safe. But some are
:02:46. > :02:51.taking precautions anyway. As in London, there has been a surge of
:02:51. > :02:57.officers on patrol, to protect property from looters and to ensure
:02:57. > :03:00.there's no retaliation after the murders of three Asian men.
:03:00. > :03:04.I think they are dead. They are I think they are dead. They are
:03:04. > :03:09.dead. These pictures were taken at 1.00am this morning just after a car
:03:09. > :03:14.had been driven at speed towards a group of men, hitting three of them.
:03:14. > :03:18.I heard the thud, ran round and seen three people on the ground.
:03:18. > :03:23.Tariq Jahan heard the collision ran to help, not realising that one
:03:23. > :03:27.of those fatally injured was his son, 21-year-old Haroon. I heard
:03:27. > :03:30.the thud, ran round and I seen three people on the ground. My instinct
:03:30. > :03:34.was to help the three people. didn't know who they were,
:03:34. > :03:38.been injured. I helped the first man and somebody from behind told me
:03:38. > :03:45.that my son was lying behind me so I started CPR on my own son. My
:03:45. > :03:50.was covered in blad, my covered in blood. Why? Two brothers,
:03:50. > :03:57.Shahzad Ali and Abdul Musavir, 30 and 31, also died. They had been
:03:57. > :04:00.among a group of 80 local men walking along the streets to guard
:04:01. > :04:03.property, including the mosque today the men were remembered in
:04:03. > :04:10.prayers. People who had known them struggled to come to terms
:04:10. > :04:17.their deaths. They were innocent young lads who were killed, murdered
:04:17. > :04:22.by a gang of thugs, call them what you want. There was no reason for
:04:22. > :04:28.it. We didn't know them, they didn't know us. Just because we are
:04:28. > :04:34.standing outside our business they didn't like it. Until last
:04:34. > :04:37.night, this area around Dudley Road had largely
:04:37. > :04:41.that has afflicted other the city. At the moment there's more
:04:41. > :04:46.disbelief than anger at what has happened here, but in either case
:04:46. > :04:51.people are demanding answers. For some that we've spoken to, it's
:04:51. > :04:54.case of criminality, nothing more than that. Others believe
:04:54. > :04:59.fact it points to underlying tensions between the different
:04:59. > :05:02.In the past, those tensions have led In the past, those tensions have led
:05:02. > :05:08.to violence between Asians and blacks. People here say they get
:05:09. > :05:13.along easily enough, but the clashes are not forgotten. As we are growing
:05:13. > :05:19.up, when you see riots at this age, and then when you grow up you see it
:05:19. > :05:23.again, you have to take part, you have to keep them away. We feel the
:05:23. > :05:29.police can't defend us. We are taking defensive measures basically
:05:29. > :05:32.just to avert trouble from us. It's really bad round here because people
:05:32. > :05:36.don't trust the black Some are good but some are not good
:05:36. > :05:40.and they are really attacking us and some are really scared.
:05:40. > :05:43.stresses were acknowledged by police today who confirmed that a
:05:43. > :05:50.32-year-old black man has arrested on suspicion of murder. I
:05:50. > :05:56.would appeal to people, at this time, to be calm. If we are
:05:56. > :06:01.calm I'm absolutely confident that the people of the West Midlands can
:06:01. > :06:05.get through this for us strange and difficult phase and that we can
:06:05. > :06:11.rebuild trust between communities and move on with a sense of purpose.
:06:11. > :06:15.But it seemed to be reassurance that people want most. They gathered
:06:15. > :06:22.community centre to demand greater protection from both police and
:06:22. > :06:26.politicians. Those that couldn't fit in waited outside. News of the
:06:26. > :06:32.meeting was broadcast by a local community TV station, beamed around
:06:32. > :06:37.the world. Most of Sangat TV's programmes are in Punjabi, so reach
:06:37. > :06:43.not just Sikhs but Muslims and Hindus. Since the rioting spread in
:06:43. > :06:47.the West Midlands on Monday, the TV station has been streaming live
:06:47. > :06:52.footage. They believe it has helped to keep those different communities
:06:52. > :06:56.informed and more stable. What we try to do actually, to save
:06:56. > :07:03.community there, to save their values, their shops and everything
:07:03. > :07:09.just by informing them and saving the community - this is what it
:07:10. > :07:13.stands for, the whole congregation is about the community and how to
:07:13. > :07:18.protect each other. Haroon Jahan's father said there should be no
:07:18. > :07:22.revenge as he paid tribute to a good and gifted son. I don't
:07:22. > :07:28.nobody. I'm a Muslim and I believe in divine fate and destiny
:07:28. > :07:32.was his destiny and his fate and he has gone. May Allah forgive him
:07:32. > :07:36.and bless him. That's all I have to say, no more, thank you very much.
:07:36. > :07:39.So far tonight his appeal for restraint is being heard. Police,
:07:39. > :07:44.who have made more than 300 since the trouble began, say they
:07:44. > :07:50.will continue their high visibility presence as an uneasy calm settles
:07:50. > :07:51.That was Liz MacKean reporting from That was Liz MacKean reporting from
:07:51. > :07:52.That was Liz MacKean reporting from Birmingham, so what did David
:07:52. > :07:53.Birmingham, so what did David Birmingham, so what did David
:07:53. > :07:56.That was Liz MacKean Cameron mean by drawing attention to
:07:56. > :08:00.pockets of our society which he claimed are "sick"? David
:08:00. > :08:05.has been trying to find out what the sickness might be and what cures
:08:05. > :08:08.be on offer. Peckham residents are using Post-it
:08:08. > :08:12.notes to send messages, think about the riots, what they
:08:12. > :08:17.think about living in Peckham and what they think have caused it all.
:08:17. > :08:19.Messages too are here from businesses, trying to keep going.
:08:20. > :08:23.One thing it's not is "business as One thing it's not is "business as
:08:23. > :08:28.usual" for the politicians. For a start, their summer holidays have
:08:28. > :08:33.all been interrupted as Parliament re-assembles tomorrow. Part of their
:08:33. > :08:39.job now is to define why all riots happened. What were the causes
:08:39. > :08:41.and crucially how can they stop them happening again?
:08:41. > :08:45.The Prime Minister's message today The Prime Minister's message today
:08:45. > :08:49.was: the fightback has begun. police can, if they think they need
:08:49. > :08:52.them, use water cannon and plastic bullets, and while he was at it Mr
:08:52. > :08:56.Cameron fired off his own stinging rebuke. Good morning. There are
:08:57. > :09:02.pockets of our society that just broken, but frankly sick. When
:09:02. > :09:06.we see children as young as 13 looting and laughing, when we see
:09:06. > :09:10.the disgusting sight of an young man with people pretending to
:09:10. > :09:16.help him while they are robbing him, it is clear there are things that
:09:16. > :09:21.are badly wrong in our society. For me, the root cause of this mindless
:09:21. > :09:25.selfishness is the same thing that I've spoken about for years. It is a
:09:25. > :09:29.complete lack of responsibility parts of our society, people allowed
:09:29. > :09:32.to feel that the world owes them something, that their rights
:09:32. > :09:37.outweigh their responsibilities and that their actions do not
:09:37. > :09:40.consequences. Well, they do have consequences.
:09:40. > :09:43.This was a very different sounding This was a very different sounding
:09:43. > :09:48.David Cameron to the one who, in opposition, invited us to understand
:09:48. > :09:55.the hoodie wearer a bit more. So when you see a child walking down a
:09:55. > :10:00.street, hoodie up, head down, moody, swaggering, dominating the pavement,
:10:00. > :10:06.think what has brought that child that moment. That is what
:10:06. > :10:11.Labour has so far struggled to post Labour has so far struggled to post
:10:11. > :10:14.a distinctive message of their own. On last night's Newsnight the deputy
:10:14. > :10:17.leader Harriet Harman did try to develop one linking the riots with
:10:17. > :10:20.government cuts. There is a sense that young people feel they
:10:20. > :10:24.being listened to. That is not justify violence, but I think that
:10:24. > :10:28.when you've got the trebling tuition fees, they should think
:10:28. > :10:31.again about that. When you've got the EMA being taken away, jobs being
:10:31. > :10:35.cut and youth unemployment and they are shutting the Jobcentre
:10:35. > :10:39.in Camberwell, well you should think again about that because this is
:10:39. > :10:46.going to cost money. This does not help. All of this does not
:10:47. > :10:51.reduce the deficit. A U gov poll The Sun newspaper today
:10:51. > :10:56.this is not a popular explanation. When asked, 42% blamed the riots
:10:56. > :11:02.criminal behaviour. .
:11:02. > :11:07.David Cameron commissioned Field to look at policy and life
:11:07. > :11:10.chances and in his report he identified parenting as the key
:11:10. > :11:13.factor. I don't sense the Prime Minister has taken any of that on
:11:13. > :11:17.board. I think the government regards this as sort of a fluffy
:11:17. > :11:22.topic maybe to comment on occasionally. They don't see it as
:11:22. > :11:29.central to the maintenance of a free society which has boundaries to that
:11:29. > :11:30.Back in Peckham, there was some Back in Peckham, there was some
:11:30. > :11:31.Back in Peckham, there was some agreement with David Cameron's
:11:31. > :11:34.agreement with David Cameron's agreement with David Cameron's
:11:34. > :11:35.tougher language on ternal tougher language on ternal
:11:36. > :11:37.tougher language on ternal responsibility. Lindsay Johns
:11:37. > :11:38.responsibility. Lindsay Johns responsibility. Lindsay Johns
:11:38. > :11:43.Back in Peckham, volunteers as a mentor to school
:11:43. > :11:47.children. If you want to look root cause I would say the culture
:11:47. > :11:52.of instant gratification that a lot of young people have in their minds,
:11:52. > :11:54.a culture of entitlement, everything is for free, a culture of rampant
:11:54. > :11:59.materialism and gratification, these are the
:11:59. > :12:02.that are pervading our young people's brains. For another youth
:12:03. > :12:07.worker we met who got himself from Peckham to Oxford University there
:12:07. > :12:09.are wider societal causes. think there's that much of a
:12:09. > :12:12.between young people on the street and some of the mistakes that adults
:12:12. > :12:15.make. There's a reflection. I think that's the discourse that has to
:12:15. > :12:19.set around that, that a society sometimes is reflected by the young
:12:19. > :12:22.people that are around it and some of those values and things, some of
:12:22. > :12:26.that sickness we are talking about has come from above, not just from
:12:26. > :12:30.below. So we as a society made them? I'm not saying we've made
:12:30. > :12:37.them but we've given that allows these extreme decisions
:12:37. > :12:42.to be made. So how do we that framework? I'm going to sound
:12:42. > :12:46.very trite again and very altruistic but I sometimes think that one of
:12:46. > :12:51.the words missing in all of this love and caring and compassion. I
:12:51. > :12:54.think somewhere in all has been no area of compassion.
:12:54. > :12:55.There are plenty of police and There are plenty of police and
:12:55. > :12:56.There are plenty of police and community support officers on the
:12:56. > :12:57.community support officers on the community support officers on the
:12:57. > :13:01.There are plenty ground here in Peckham and all
:13:01. > :13:08.across London at the moment. Getting those numbers here was seen as
:13:08. > :13:12.crucial to putting an end or getting a lid on the disturbances, but going
:13:12. > :13:16.forward police numbers are providing perhaps the most obvious and
:13:16. > :13:19.immediate political battleground between the parties.
:13:19. > :13:23.The Mayor of London for one thinks The Mayor of London for one thinks
:13:23. > :13:28.the government should abandon its plans to cut police budgets. Labour
:13:28. > :13:32.agrees. Supermarket Sweep! these last few frantic days and
:13:32. > :13:36.frightening nights, the politics the law and order debate has changed
:13:36. > :13:37.Now I am joined by Diane Abbott, Now I am joined by Diane Abbott,
:13:37. > :13:38.Now I am joined by Diane Abbott, Labour MP for Hackney which of
:13:38. > :13:38.Labour MP for Hackney which of Labour MP for Hackney which of
:13:38. > :13:39.course has suffered considerable course has suffered considerable
:13:39. > :13:45.Now I am joined by Diane damage in the riots and from Leeds
:13:45. > :13:48.by the chairman Party, Baroness Sayeeda Warsi,
:13:48. > :13:50.is also minister in charge of social cohesion. Can you explain to us
:13:50. > :13:55.David Cameron had in mind when he talked about these pockets of our
:13:55. > :13:58.society that are sick? I think what the Prime Minister was referring to
:13:58. > :14:02.was a culture of feeling within communities and within young
:14:02. > :14:06.that they don't have to take personal responsibility, that it's
:14:06. > :14:12.always somebody else's fault, that something else can be blamed
:14:12. > :14:15.what they are having to do and what they are doing, and if you look at
:14:15. > :14:19.whether that's parental responsibility, whether it's the way
:14:19. > :14:22.in which young people have been looting and smiling at the camera
:14:22. > :14:25.they are doing it, whether they are saying they have a right to take
:14:25. > :14:29.these goods, whether the way in which they've torched people's
:14:29. > :14:33.houses and taken away people's livelihoods, and indeed people have
:14:33. > :14:37.lost their lives, that is what David Cameron means about a broken
:14:37. > :14:42.society, a society that is sick. Diane Abbott, when we see these
:14:42. > :14:46.pictures, when we see that young lad who had clearly been beaten up and
:14:46. > :14:51.then someone pretends to help and then steals his wallet, that is
:14:51. > :14:54.sick, isn't it? I don't know about pictures. I was on the streets of
:14:54. > :14:57.Hackney on Monday night at the height of the riots and I said on
:14:57. > :15:02.the streets, at the height of the riots, people need to take
:15:02. > :15:05.children off the street. If that isn't preaching personal
:15:05. > :15:09.responsibility, I don't know what is. I saw some sickening things in
:15:09. > :15:12.Hackney, in my constituency, and I've seen sickening things happen
:15:13. > :15:18.elsewhere. So you agree with Prime Minister? No, you haven't let
:15:18. > :15:22.me finish, Gavin. I've seen sickening acts but to stigmatise
:15:22. > :15:24.parts of the society as sick is quite wrong. Yes, sickening things
:15:24. > :15:29.happened in Hackney but hundreds of people gathered the following
:15:29. > :15:33.morning to help to clear up the borough. It is not helpful to
:15:33. > :15:37.stigmatise either an age group or a part of society as sick, as some
:15:37. > :15:41.sort of cancer. Baroness Warsi, it's not helpful and society is
:15:41. > :15:44.composed as individuals, it points fingers at certain people which
:15:44. > :15:49.isn't helpful? What the recent riots have shown is the worst
:15:49. > :15:52.Britain and the best of Britain. I completely agree with Diane when she
:15:52. > :15:55.says we've seen society come out, for example, in the clean-up, but if
:15:55. > :15:58.you want to try and resolve a problem, to deal with
:15:58. > :16:02.you have to say what it is you can start determining what
:16:02. > :16:06.cure is. I think for too unfortunately people in leadership
:16:06. > :16:09.positions have come out with excuses, have come out with reasons,
:16:09. > :16:14.when what they should be saying is that enough is enough. If you break
:16:14. > :16:16.the law, if you do not play by the rules, if you step over the law then
:16:16. > :16:20.you will be punished. You will responsibility for the actions
:16:20. > :16:24.you have taken. It's when we start saying that, when we start saying
:16:24. > :16:27.that to whether it's young people, whether it's adults, whether it's to
:16:27. > :16:30.parents, whether it's to teachers in schools and say that we have to
:16:30. > :16:34.enforce school discipline, whether it's about saying to the way
:16:34. > :16:38.which we deal with welfare, to say that actually it must pay for you to
:16:38. > :16:41.work, not pay for you not to work; when we start making these very
:16:41. > :16:45.clear statements as to what the problems are and how we can resolve
:16:45. > :16:49.them, that's when we will start getting results. OK, Diane Abbott?
:16:49. > :16:54.I'm not making excuses for anybody. I've said clearly throughout this
:16:54. > :16:58.period that looters are thieves they are ludicrously stupid
:16:58. > :17:02.as well because they are trashing their own communities. With the
:17:02. > :17:05.greatest respect to Baroness Warsi, what worries me about the language
:17:05. > :17:09.that David Cameron is using, just that it's wrong and
:17:09. > :17:12.but the Tories are trying to draw attention from the fact that we've
:17:12. > :17:16.now seen 12 months into Conservative government the
:17:16. > :17:21.mainland rioting in country has seen for a century. What's needed is,
:17:21. > :17:25.first of all, to get control back of the streets, and I'm not
:17:25. > :17:29.the numbers of police we have London at the moment are
:17:29. > :17:33.sustainable, and what we also need though is a long term plan for
:17:33. > :17:37.social cohesion and stability. You are presiding over the
:17:37. > :17:40.that we've seen for a long Baroness Warsi? And when I say -
:17:40. > :17:43.when we say these riots are symptomatic of what has
:17:43. > :17:45.happening for a long time in our society I hope Diane Abbott and her
:17:45. > :17:48.government will take some responsibility for actually
:17:48. > :17:53.presiding over creation of this culture of not taking
:17:53. > :17:57.responsibility. You were in Diane Abbott, just let me get her to
:17:57. > :18:01.answer that, Labour was in power when many of these children were
:18:01. > :18:04.born and grew up. News Baroness Warsi, I was not a
:18:04. > :18:11.government minister. The point I am making is that for all types of
:18:11. > :18:14.reasons we are seeing frightening - frightening - social disorder. But
:18:14. > :18:17.was there no political responsibility from the Labour
:18:17. > :18:22.government - of which you were not a part, was there no
:18:22. > :18:27.responsibility? All I can say is the last time we had riots of
:18:27. > :18:31.nature was back in the 1980s when once again there was not a Labour
:18:32. > :18:38.government. What I'm saying - you are saying - let me finish. We
:18:38. > :18:41.have to regain control of the streets. Stigmatising communities
:18:41. > :18:46.not going to do it. I completely agree with you that the
:18:46. > :18:49.we have to do is take control of our streets to make sure that
:18:49. > :18:52.law-abiding people and their property is protected but to try
:18:52. > :18:56.connect this to a Conservative Government I think is ludicrous.
:18:56. > :18:59.It's part of the narrative which sadly Labour are starting to develop
:18:59. > :19:06.to try to find a reason, an excuse to connect it to cuts. I mean,
:19:06. > :19:11.earlier this week I heard Lee Jasper, the adviser to the ex-Mayor
:19:11. > :19:15.Ken Livingston saying that there are stores like Currys and Foot Locker
:19:15. > :19:19.who do not spend their corporate budgets in this area and that makes
:19:19. > :19:23.young people angry. You can come with crazy excuse after excuse.
:19:23. > :19:29.There is no excuse. There is simple thing happening on our
:19:29. > :19:32.streets: it is people going out creating criminal acts, looting,
:19:32. > :19:37.burning down homes and businesses and we have to be prepared - you
:19:37. > :19:42.know, Diane, until you stand up and start saying very clearly people
:19:42. > :19:46.have to start taking personal responsibility, society expects
:19:46. > :19:51.certain set of more or less and we have to start saying those clearly.
:19:51. > :19:56.You made that point clearly. Diane Abbott? I said it all along. People
:19:56. > :20:01.have to take their children off the streets. I saw children of 8 or 9
:20:01. > :20:04.and stood up and - but Harriet Harman talked about
:20:05. > :20:10.educational maintenance allowances and tuition fees which have not yet
:20:10. > :20:15.gone up and the EMA has not yet been cut, so how could they possibly
:20:15. > :20:21.anything to do with this problem? I have said clearly: looters are
:20:21. > :20:26.thieves. The number one priority is to get control of the streets. But
:20:26. > :20:30.it's nothing to do with cuts? The Labour Party is not making excuses.
:20:30. > :20:34.The Labour Party is calling on this government - so it's nothing
:20:34. > :20:38.with cuts? The cuts, any sense tells you that the cuts are
:20:38. > :20:42.not going to make anything better soon, but I reject the narrative
:20:42. > :20:46.that says that cuts has turned people into thieves in the here and
:20:46. > :20:50.now. Baroness Warsi, we heard Johnson suggesting that cuts to
:20:50. > :20:55.Metropolitan Police budget shouldn't go ahead. He thinks it has
:20:55. > :20:58.to do with the cuts. If you - can go back to Diane's point then I will
:20:58. > :21:01.come to your point. Diane, I completely agree with what
:21:01. > :21:05.been doing when you have been going into Hackney, speaking to
:21:05. > :21:08.people, you have been speaking to the victims, and I completely accept
:21:08. > :21:12.that you have been has been wrong and this is
:21:12. > :21:18.criminality, but at the same time you have also been saying: well,
:21:18. > :21:26.this has something to do with the cuts, to do with EMA, the education
:21:26. > :21:28.maintenancance allowance. No. And the minute you do that you take away
:21:28. > :21:31.personal responsibility and reinforce that culture which creates
:21:31. > :21:34.that feeling that people don't have to suffer the consequences of their
:21:34. > :21:37.actions. Diane wants to respond to that. Yes, with the greatest
:21:37. > :21:40.respect to Baroness Warsi you have been reading the central
:21:40. > :21:45.press release and not listening to what I have been saying but why not
:21:45. > :21:49.tell us about Boris Johnson he is saying about police cuts.
:21:49. > :21:54.Indeed. Boris Johnson seems to think that cuts play a part in this, does
:21:54. > :21:58.he not? I have actually been at the two Cobra meetings, and the
:21:58. > :22:01.question that the Prime Minister has asked the Metropolitan Police on
:22:01. > :22:06.both those two meetings is to say: do you have the resources to
:22:06. > :22:11.the streets and to keep people and they have said yes. I am
:22:11. > :22:14.confident that - should ahead? I am confident that despite
:22:14. > :22:18.the changes in budgets of that they will have the necessary
:22:18. > :22:22.police numbers to go out and keep us safe. So they should go ahead?
:22:22. > :22:28.Let's not forget that during the Labour years when there was
:22:28. > :22:31.unprecedented amount of money - your direct answer to that
:22:31. > :22:36.is yes? Of course the answer is yes because during the time of Labour
:22:36. > :22:42.when unprecedented amounts of money went into the Police Service we
:22:42. > :22:46.found that only 11% of police forces were out patrolling the streets.
:22:46. > :22:53.Again, with respect, you cannot there and tell my constituents
:22:53. > :22:59.police cuts can go ahead. You cannot sustain the levels of policing that
:22:59. > :23:03.we need to keep my constituents - UK, Diane, that's where you are
:23:03. > :23:08.wrong - you can, Diane, you are wrong. Because when you have
:23:08. > :23:13.statistics which show that policing time - Statistics. Only 14% of
:23:13. > :23:17.time was spent on patrolling the streets and 22% was spent on filling
:23:17. > :23:20.in forms and paperwork, that filling in paperwork doesn't
:23:20. > :23:23.keep our streets safe. It's keeping police officers on the beat, on the
:23:23. > :23:27.front line and that's what we've said we will protect. Do you
:23:27. > :23:33.actually think that, when Minister talks about a sick society,
:23:33. > :23:37.he is simply doing what Tony Blair did when he was Shadow
:23:37. > :23:42.secretary and he said in 1993: believe a society that
:23:42. > :23:47.such society is a sick other words, both parties simply
:23:47. > :23:51.play politics, use the same phrases but actually things don't change. I
:23:51. > :23:57.can't answer for Tony Blair I think David Cameron is doing
:23:57. > :24:02.playing to the gallery. Of course, if you stigmatise people and abuse
:24:02. > :24:04.people, people feel better. What saying on behalf of my constituents
:24:04. > :24:08.who saw those riots go past front doors is we need sustainable
:24:08. > :24:11.plans to keep people safe. You can put 16,000 policemen on the streets
:24:11. > :24:15.today. What about next week or the week after? With these police
:24:15. > :24:19.we will not have the policing we need. Diane Abbott,
:24:19. > :24:23.Baroness Warsi, thank you both very much.
:24:23. > :24:23.Now, an army recruit, graphic Now, an army recruit, graphic
:24:23. > :24:24.Now, an army recruit, graphic designer and a primary school
:24:24. > :24:25.designer and a primary school designer and a primary school
:24:25. > :24:27.Now, an army recruit, assistant, these were just some of
:24:27. > :24:31.the unlikely suspects who appeared in court today for their alleged
:24:31. > :24:34.role in the riots. Meanwhile, as the legal system grinds into action, the
:24:34. > :24:38.Prime Minister gave us his diagnosis of the problem
:24:38. > :24:41.highlighting the problems caused gangs in England's inner cities.
:24:41. > :24:45.There's no doubt that some of the disturbances were organised but what
:24:45. > :24:50.part did gangs and gang culture really play in the events of the
:24:50. > :24:52.past few days? Anna Adams has that part of the story.
:24:52. > :24:57.Last night Manchester witnessed some Last night Manchester witnessed some
:24:57. > :25:02.of the most violent scenes in its history. It was a very different
:25:02. > :25:07.picture tonight. The city is not back to normal but a heavy police
:25:07. > :25:11.presence finally brought the city back under control. Moss Side in
:25:11. > :25:15.Manchester is an area not unaccustomed to rioting, but not
:25:15. > :25:18.this time round. Firefighters here came under attack in last night's
:25:18. > :25:26.riots but this time it was not Moss Side, it was from gangs
:25:26. > :25:30.city centre. Ten of their fire engines were vandalised. The
:25:30. > :25:33.firemen now run a boxing club for youngsters and say this is often the
:25:33. > :25:39.only alternative they have to joining a gang here. You look
:25:39. > :25:44.around and the gangs give love, say you are one of us, they feel loved
:25:44. > :25:48.and wanted, and part of it. to do is say: listen, be a part of
:25:48. > :25:55.my gang. This is my gang, this the gang that I run. It's a good
:25:55. > :26:01.gang, it's a gang that's going to down to town tomorrow and try and
:26:01. > :26:05.recover what has been damaged there. This firefighter has just
:26:05. > :26:09.come back from Salford and said shops are still smouldering. It was
:26:09. > :26:14.surreal, like a film set, seeing so many shops damaged and seeing
:26:14. > :26:17.people's reactions. People aren't happy. These mindless thugs just
:26:17. > :26:21.wrecking stuff for the sake of They have no real reason to do it
:26:21. > :26:26.and a lot of people are just jumping on the bandwagon, then people coming
:26:26. > :26:30.just to watch that are making even worse. The city was eerily
:26:30. > :26:34.quiet tonight. Shops that weren't boarded up closed early and there
:26:34. > :26:37.was still a smell of burning in the damp air. People are worried that
:26:37. > :26:41.scars from last night will take longer than ever to heal. I just
:26:41. > :26:44.think it's shocking because it's their city as well. It's not just
:26:44. > :26:48.our city, it's their city as well and they are kind of doing this
:26:48. > :26:54.their own community and I really understand it. Just
:26:54. > :26:59.disgusting. They've ruined the and they've ruined the
:26:59. > :27:05.for young people. So people are going to look at us and think: yeah,
:27:05. > :27:07.they are all the same. So that's it. It's images like this that have
:27:07. > :27:12.tarnished a city that has done well to shrug
:27:12. > :27:16.well to shrug off the stigma of gang warfare and rioting for decades, all
:27:16. > :27:20.of this undone by one night of looting. A lot of people think
:27:20. > :27:24.I believe this to be true, a lot are seeing them as scum so they act
:27:24. > :27:28.scum. Is it any wonder? Look around, what have they got? Nothing.
:27:28. > :27:32.doesn't give them the right to and smash the place up. He is
:27:32. > :27:37.talking to us. Have I Do you think it's fair someone has
:27:37. > :27:41.been shot in London for nothing? What has that to do with wrecking
:27:41. > :27:48.our shop? Have you got kids? I'm sorry but what has that to do
:27:48. > :27:52.youth workers say here that the youth workers say here that the
:27:52. > :27:55.ideology was nothing like they've seen before. Unlike previous
:27:56. > :28:00.riots they say this had nothing do with politics but was influenced
:28:00. > :28:03.far more by a growing gang culture and that's an image that certainly
:28:03. > :28:07.here in Manchester they will to shake off. We've come to this
:28:07. > :28:09.charity here in Manchester just round the corner from the Probation
:28:09. > :28:13.Service, a building that was attacked in last night's riots. They
:28:13. > :28:20.deal with more than 100 young ever single day just coming to this
:28:20. > :28:23.building and they said at least 65% of them are involved with gangs.
:28:23. > :28:26.It's just the mindset is making It's just the mindset is making
:28:26. > :28:32.money, that's all it is. The one mindset that you have when you
:28:32. > :28:38.are in a gang. No matter how you get it, you will get it. And how do you
:28:38. > :28:41.break that cycle then? Is that you left London? Yeah, you break
:28:41. > :28:48.that cycle by just thinking that you could be better in yourself really,
:28:48. > :28:51.just thinking to yourself: well, this really life because your older
:28:51. > :28:55.people are getting arrested, they've got life stretches, they have to be
:28:56. > :29:00.in prison for their whole life because they wanted to make a couple
:29:00. > :29:04.hundred grand. lot of money, but at what cost
:29:05. > :29:09.really? Trevor Grant has worked with young offenders for more than 30
:29:09. > :29:12.years and said some of the young people were looting as a form of
:29:12. > :29:17.gang initiation. There's structure to gangs, an
:29:17. > :29:22.there's a top and a bottom. If the word goes out, there's a meeting.
:29:22. > :29:25.a particular point, with the they have, they can say: right, I
:29:25. > :29:28.need X amount of people spot to carry out a certain
:29:28. > :29:33.activity. The message from Greater Manchester Police could
:29:33. > :29:39.been more stark. Make no mistake, they said today, we know who you
:29:39. > :29:42.These are not gangs as we know them These are not gangs as we know them
:29:42. > :29:45.and this is certainly not a turf war. Gangs across the country
:29:45. > :29:50.now smaller, more fragmented and this time round it looks like they
:29:50. > :29:53.are motivated only by bling and greed.
:29:53. > :29:53.Diane Abbott is still with us. We Diane Abbott is still with us. We
:29:53. > :29:56.are joined by Katherine Birbalsingh are joined by Katherine Birbalsingh
:29:56. > :29:59.Diane Abbott is still who is setting up a free school in
:29:59. > :30:04.Lambeth and who has strongly criticised lack of discipline in
:30:04. > :30:06.comprehensive schools and by MADIX, an ex-gang member who has served
:30:06. > :30:10.some time in prison. Do you there is a strong gang connection
:30:10. > :30:13.here with what we are seeing? Well, there might be but I think what's
:30:13. > :30:16.more important is that we are a number of young people out
:30:16. > :30:19.who have never been in trouble with the law, breaking the law and they
:30:19. > :30:23.are being encouraged to do so by lack of authority. We've lost
:30:23. > :30:26.authority in our families. These children are bringing home
:30:26. > :30:29.that they've stolen and yet their parents are not taking them to the
:30:29. > :30:33.police to say that their children have stolen things. We've lost
:30:33. > :30:37.authority in the streets in terms the police and what the - the powers
:30:37. > :30:41.that the police have. In teaching we have a saying that says: never smile
:30:41. > :30:47.until Christmas. Unfortunately, since Saturday when Tottenham
:30:48. > :30:51.happened, we've just been smiling. But is part of it, however,
:30:51. > :30:54.of grab what you want culture and that doesn't really matter?
:30:54. > :31:00.words there's no particular morality or sense of worry about the
:31:00. > :31:04.consequences? We live in an intensely materialistic society
:31:04. > :31:09.for a lot of these young people, gangs or no gangs, they are the
:31:09. > :31:14.labels, they are the bling. your trainers. I think materialism
:31:14. > :31:17.has always been an issue in western society but this is perhaps the most
:31:17. > :31:24.intensely materialistic generation of youngsters we've had to deal
:31:24. > :31:26.with. Why is that? MTV. They hit the same shops all the time, JB
:31:26. > :31:30.Sports and mobile phone because they want the bling. It's
:31:30. > :31:34.astonishing. Let me bring in MADIX. Had a do you think of that?
:31:34. > :31:41.think it is about gangs or who are influenced by gang culture
:31:41. > :31:46.but not really hardcore gang members in any way? I think it's families
:31:46. > :31:51.subconsciously fed up, you know, so emotionally things will spill
:31:51. > :31:56.the slightest excuse. Everyone is fed up, I was on the streets at
:31:56. > :32:01.ground level and I saw working class people out there doing their thing.
:32:01. > :32:04.Do you understand? People are fed up. People have got jobs and
:32:04. > :32:07.struggling, people are losing cars and this and that because
:32:07. > :32:11.everything is just too much. They are carrying on anyway but you have
:32:11. > :32:15.a few people that will start it and that will just bring up mass
:32:15. > :32:19.hysteria, it just starts up everything. But come on, being fed
:32:19. > :32:25.up and emotional doesn't lead you to try and brick in a bookies.
:32:25. > :32:29.watched with my own eyes people trying to brick in a Ladbrokes
:32:29. > :32:33.window in broad daylight. What they going to do, get in there and
:32:33. > :32:37.place free bets? A lot of this greed and mindless violence and
:32:37. > :32:42.need to call it what it is. And interestingly Waterstones and
:32:42. > :32:47.local libraries have not been looted. Yes, they are so fed up
:32:47. > :32:50.they don't want to read a book. One issue we've tiptoed around is
:32:50. > :32:54.question of race. Is it that there are some things about a black
:32:54. > :32:58.culture which are very attractive not just to black youths but
:32:58. > :33:03.white and Asian youths who follow in some ways and is there a bad side
:33:03. > :33:06.to that which causes these problems? I think so, and I said MTV earlier.
:33:06. > :33:12.I think unfortunately, when you survey them, young people will say
:33:12. > :33:16.they spend six, seven hours sat in front of MTV base. The kind of
:33:16. > :33:22.culture that is glorified there is men with their cars and their babes
:33:22. > :33:26.and bling, and so on, and then you do find lots of young people - not
:33:26. > :33:29.just black young people but well and Asian young people, you
:33:29. > :33:35.find them shaving their heads and trying to look black in order to
:33:35. > :33:40.more cool. Right. And that's because of this horrible culture
:33:40. > :33:45.that is coming from American - you know, the music scene. Did
:33:45. > :33:54.that kind of thing attractive? I didn't find - what I found
:33:54. > :33:58.attractive when I was young was the A Team, commando, Rambo, all these
:33:58. > :34:03.heroes fighting bad people. That desensitised me to guns, to
:34:03. > :34:06.violence, psychologically it desensitises you. When we
:34:06. > :34:09.something happening, traumatise us. We shouldn't
:34:09. > :34:14.to walk past or capitalise on you understand what I'm saying? We
:34:14. > :34:17.are supposed to be traumatised but the majority of us are not
:34:17. > :34:21.traumatised. These things happen and it's nothing much for them to
:34:21. > :34:24.in, do you understand? I'm trying figure out though why it is that the
:34:24. > :34:27.politicians, David Cameron today and also I think Ed Miliband to
:34:27. > :34:30.extent suggested that behind this and you seem to be
:34:30. > :34:33.suggesting it's far more complicated than that. Do you think there are
:34:33. > :34:39.gangs involved in the of this, or not really? If you
:34:39. > :34:44.to the police, and I have been talking to my police every day,
:34:44. > :34:47.often more than once a day, they will tell you is, if this was
:34:48. > :34:52.just "a gang" organising this looting, actually it would be much
:34:52. > :34:56.easier to disrupt and much easier to find out what's doing. The
:34:56. > :35:00.with it is that it is so chaotic and anarchic. When you pick up people,
:35:00. > :35:08.some of them are members of gangs but basically this is a
:35:08. > :35:12.thing organised by text messages and BlackBerry Messenger. Let me come to
:35:12. > :35:15.black culture. First of all, not all of these looters are black, not even
:35:15. > :35:19.in Brixton. If you are in Manchester, most of the looters are
:35:19. > :35:24.white. But there are issues with some of our young black people,
:35:24. > :35:30.particularly some of our young black men but I won't have black culture
:35:30. > :35:34.stigmatised. My parents are the generation that came in the 50s,
:35:34. > :35:40.60s, were church-goers, loved Queen - more than you love the
:35:40. > :35:44.they loved the Queen - know how much I love the Queen or
:35:44. > :35:49.otherwise! Furthermore, they were grateful to be able to come here and
:35:49. > :35:51.work so there's nothing intrinsic about West Indian culture
:35:51. > :35:57.leads to criminality but I live in Hackney I know there are
:35:57. > :36:05.about some of our young black men but let's not stigmatise the black
:36:05. > :36:11.culture as a whole. But to take MADIX's point about young people who
:36:11. > :36:16.become desensitised to violence - Not just to violence, they are
:36:16. > :36:22.desensitised to sex. They are having sex earlier, they have children
:36:22. > :36:28.who ends up with no father nine times out of ten the child
:36:28. > :36:34.up with no father. It is from there. Young people have had sex early,
:36:34. > :36:39.it's easy to go on about black culture but again going to my
:36:39. > :36:43.father, he became sheet metal worker, his sense of
:36:43. > :36:47.pride was all tied up in that blue collar job. There is no role for
:36:47. > :36:50.working class men, black or who don't have qualifications. It's
:36:50. > :36:55.partly the change in the economy. But education is just so
:36:55. > :37:00.Yes. If the schools are not able - we've got 17% of our 15-year-olds
:37:00. > :37:02.who are functionally illiterate. The problem is that if our school
:37:02. > :37:05.is not performing at the level needs to perform, we are churning
:37:06. > :37:10.out children who literally cannot read and write, they cannot
:37:10. > :37:16.appreciate the beauty of a building, they cannot want to go to a film
:37:16. > :37:19.appreciate the drama in it. And so they are bored. And they are not
:37:19. > :37:23.sensible enough not to go looting broad daylight. That's the other
:37:23. > :37:26.thing. When you were involved in this, was there any organisation or
:37:26. > :37:29.part of the state, the police or teachers or anything that you
:37:29. > :37:33.particularly respected or did not respect any of them? In other
:37:33. > :37:37.words, if a teacher came to you said you are doing wrong,
:37:37. > :37:42.to do it this way, what have said? I remember at the
:37:42. > :37:48.school days, very boring. Like, teachers, most of them was
:37:48. > :37:52.temporaries, a lot of strikes at the time, school was free time. People
:37:52. > :37:56.stopped going to school there was nothing to do there. Until
:37:56. > :38:00.it got better, teachers came in, then it got better, but other than
:38:00. > :38:07.that - But that's why education is so important and when Diane
:38:07. > :38:11.about her father and those times, West Indian people, in so many ways
:38:11. > :38:15.we are losing that. Our young are growing up without a sense of
:38:15. > :38:21.determination to work hard and make their lives better. Or discipline.
:38:21. > :38:25.Exactly. Do you get those from family? If you haven't
:38:25. > :38:32.that functions, you are not going to have it. My father every week came
:38:32. > :38:40.home with a wage packet, gave my her shopping money, us children our
:38:40. > :38:44.pocket money and a bar of chocolate. A lot of families I see are on
:38:44. > :38:49.estates where they just don't go back and work. Before you turn back
:38:49. > :38:52.to our reformed gangster friend, for every gangster or looter there are
:38:52. > :38:55.hundreds of black children trying and I'm really unhappy when
:38:55. > :38:59.people assume that black looters the face of our young black people
:38:59. > :39:02.because it's not. No, and in most black people are horrified by
:39:03. > :39:08.what's going on and what's unfortunate is that a small
:39:08. > :39:11.have the rest of us kind of just we are horrified. Just a
:39:11. > :39:15.thought. You suggested earlier that what we are going to see is
:39:15. > :39:18.generation doing this because - I mean, is that the way you see it?
:39:18. > :39:21.Yes, because it has been happening for generations, and the next
:39:21. > :39:25.generation coming up is going to be worse because it's going to be a
:39:25. > :39:31.different time. People say the BlackBerry helped people
:39:31. > :39:34.this crime. In 1981 how organise it? It wasn't even mobile
:39:34. > :39:37.phones. Whatever form of communication is about that's
:39:37. > :39:42.they are going to use and it gets around like that. It's not a thing
:39:42. > :39:46.that's arranged, sat down, let's have a meeting. It's not like that.
:39:46. > :39:50.It's on the spot, most people know who is running, where they are
:39:50. > :39:53.going, it's mass hysteria, everyone is just getting into it. Do you
:39:53. > :39:58.understand? It's nothing planned, like: we are going to do
:39:58. > :40:02.tomorrow or Saturday. It's not something like that. I think
:40:02. > :40:06.there's more hope like are people like you and your friends
:40:06. > :40:08.but also peekpeople in Hackney - people in Hackney in terrible
:40:08. > :40:11.conditions who nonetheless are contributing to society. We
:40:11. > :40:15.leave it there, thank you. David Cameron also said
:40:15. > :40:19.riots had shown the worst in us and some of the best in us. Communities
:40:19. > :40:22.really have come together to clean up, to protect themselves and to
:40:22. > :40:32.help each other. We have been to two very different communities to find
:40:32. > :40:37.
:40:37. > :40:39.To cries of "England!", scores of To cries of "England!", scores of
:40:39. > :40:40.To cries of "England!", scores of self-appointed defenders process
:40:40. > :40:40.self-appointed defenders process self-appointed defenders process
:40:40. > :40:45.through a north London suburb last through a north London suburb last
:40:45. > :40:51.To cries of night and these are the guardians
:40:51. > :40:58.Eltham in London. These are people - looters, if you going to come round
:40:58. > :41:04.here, this is what you get. SHOUTING.
:41:04. > :41:14.Also courtesy of YouTube, some townspeople on the move in Enfield,
:41:14. > :41:14.
:41:14. > :41:17.We are the Enfield army. We are here We are the Enfield army. We are here
:41:18. > :41:21.for one reason, to stick up for our families. My girlfriend
:41:21. > :41:25.are sitting at home. I'm here to protect them. We are here to help
:41:25. > :41:28.the police. We do believe, don't we lads, that there ain't enough of
:41:28. > :41:34.them. There's too much going too many different areas. They
:41:34. > :41:36.Enfield was the scene of Enfield was the scene of
:41:36. > :41:36.Enfield was the scene of disturbances on Monday. A huge
:41:37. > :41:37.disturbances on Monday. A huge disturbances on Monday. A huge
:41:37. > :41:46.Enfield was the scene warehouse belonging to a music
:41:46. > :41:50.company was burnt to the ground. To the casual onlooker Enfield is a
:41:50. > :41:53.peaceable market town on the fringes of London, a good place to live, and
:41:53. > :42:01.so it is most of the time, but there are a few clues here
:42:01. > :42:05.the recent troubling events in town. Extra police patrols, discreet
:42:05. > :42:07.beefed up security in some including pubs, and there has even
:42:07. > :42:13.been a prayer vigil here evening.
:42:13. > :42:16.This man wasn't one of the so-called Enfield Army but he says he did
:42:16. > :42:21.some people together in case of an attack on a petrol station next to
:42:21. > :42:24.his estate. REPORTER: Why not just leave it to the police? That's
:42:24. > :42:27.job. You can't always rely on the police and when the police arrive,
:42:27. > :42:31.if they arrive at all, all they are going to do is exacerbate
:42:31. > :42:35.problem. You know what I they are going to do is criminalise
:42:35. > :42:43.the youth, all they are going to do is perpetuate what's going on. As I
:42:43. > :42:48.said before, these people are not very high up on the ladder and would
:42:48. > :42:51.benefit much more from a slap round the ear and being sent home to their
:42:51. > :42:55.parents than they would from a criminal record. In the event
:42:55. > :42:58.never had to put his plans into effect but, if he had, would he have
:42:58. > :43:02.broken the law? How far of the public go to
:43:02. > :43:06.themselves and hair communities? - their communities? If
:43:06. > :43:09.knowledge of a criminal offence can potentially arrest someone. If
:43:09. > :43:13.you have merely suspicion and it's not a reasonable suspicion, no, you
:43:13. > :43:16.cannot. In terms of having a weapon, if you face imminent threat you can
:43:16. > :43:21.arm yourself but you cannot bring a weapon with you unless there is
:43:21. > :43:25.imminent threat that you genuinely believe is out there. Members
:43:25. > :43:27.the Sikh community in West London were sending out a pretty clear
:43:27. > :43:33.signal last night that they were prepared to defend their temple by
:43:34. > :43:40.force if it came to it. As absolute last resort, you have
:43:40. > :43:46.swords, the devices and symbols your faith? We do, and I think
:43:46. > :43:50.sword sometimes can become emotive. What we say is it is an article of
:43:50. > :43:54.faith for us. We would use that as last resort and thankfully it has
:43:54. > :43:57.never come to that and we hope and pray it does not come
:43:57. > :44:01.that so I think that the sight of our community being together and
:44:01. > :44:05.strong and being here will put any persons who want to feel that they
:44:05. > :44:08.want to come and disrespect our place of worship, will be enough to
:44:08. > :44:12.put them off, and I think that to an extent that has been shown
:44:13. > :44:16.is working. What we are saying, are very peaceful and peace-loving
:44:16. > :44:21.and we want to come together as a community, but we are prepared to
:44:21. > :44:25.make sure that our place of worship is respected. The Sikhs have been
:44:25. > :44:30.working closely with the police. But the Met say others who have been
:44:30. > :44:33.tempted to take the law into their own hands have been diverting police
:44:33. > :44:36.resources away from pursuing looters.
:44:36. > :44:40.In an increasingly crowded field of In an increasingly crowded field of
:44:40. > :44:44.amateurs offering their services in the area of public order,
:44:44. > :44:52.English Defence League were out in southeast London last night.
:44:52. > :44:58.these are local people, these are patriots who have come out to
:44:58. > :45:01.their area. So the EDL has come down, about 50 of us to goad
:45:01. > :45:06.down, about 50 of us to down, about 50 of us to guide them
:45:06. > :45:11.and make sure it isn't out of order. This is Ealing and a man here
:45:11. > :45:14.remains seriously ill in hospital. In the past hour, Scotland Yard has
:45:14. > :45:19.released CCTV images of a man it describes as a strong suspect in
:45:20. > :45:24.assault. Earlier, a retired GP here told us at that he and his
:45:24. > :45:28.had been prepared to home. We got shutters on the front
:45:28. > :45:32.door, we've got good locks and everything. We will shut everything
:45:32. > :45:36.in and they said: we already armed ourselves, we've taken Will's golf
:45:36. > :45:40.clubs. I said I think if one actually is pretty solid and says:
:45:40. > :45:44.look, we are three very strong guys and we are not prepared to have you
:45:44. > :45:49.invade our privacy, just get out of here. We recognise our society is
:45:49. > :45:53.so broken. After an extraordinary few days in London, Enfield
:45:53. > :45:57.residents offer their prayers for calm on the streets. Action over
:45:57. > :46:02.and abusive that doesn't necessarily have - action over and above that
:46:02. > :46:04.doesn't necessarily have the Met's blessing.
:46:04. > :46:06.I am joined by Constable Paul I am joined by Constable Paul
:46:06. > :46:11.Deller and by Patrick Hayes who joined a group defending
:46:11. > :46:17.this week. Why did you do it? I was reporting on the situation but
:46:17. > :46:20.I very much like the people on that kind of anti-riot group. I was faced
:46:20. > :46:25.with a situation on Monday where was too scared to leave my house,
:46:25. > :46:28.was watching the situation on telly and really I was faced with a
:46:28. > :46:32.situation where for now four there has been a complete failure of
:46:32. > :46:40.the police to take any control the situation. You've had what are
:46:40. > :46:43.effectively just anihilistic childish thugs setting light to
:46:43. > :46:47.property, putting peoples lives in very serious danger and people feel
:46:47. > :46:51.they can't trust the police anymore. The police are now telling
:46:51. > :46:55.groups such as in Enfield they now need to go home and put faith in the
:46:55. > :46:57.police but where were the police when people really needed them?
:46:57. > :47:01.Everybody knows the stress police officers have been under in
:47:01. > :47:05.the past few days but that is a fair point, is it not? If the police
:47:05. > :47:09.can't be there or aren't there then people will do it for themselves?
:47:09. > :47:13.Into it is a fair point and obviously anybody can defend their
:47:13. > :47:20.own property from attack if they need to but we would be res sent for
:47:20. > :47:24.these groups to take it further start patrolling the streets as a
:47:25. > :47:28.vigilante group or homemade militia to confront groups of rioters
:47:28. > :47:32.because that would lead to a breakdown in law and order
:47:32. > :47:35.completely. Do you see that point? What I saw
:47:35. > :47:40.last night was members of the local community, many were white working
:47:40. > :47:44.class, but we had a range of people from different ethnicities who
:47:44. > :47:47.basically felt they didn't be cooped up inside their homes
:47:47. > :47:50.anymore and wanted to go out and do something. But you are describing
:47:50. > :47:55.it from the inside. If you are walking on the streets
:47:55. > :47:59.on the outside of that group and you see 20, 30, 40 blokes perhaps armed
:47:59. > :48:03.with cricket bats or something and you are not part of that
:48:03. > :48:07.would look like you are threatening, even if the motives are not?
:48:07. > :48:15.Certainly in Enfield there were no weapons last night on display. The
:48:15. > :48:19.sense I got was that the community were broadly supportive,
:48:19. > :48:23.blowing horns and coming out of shops and fire stations and garages.
:48:23. > :48:27.What about the accusations that people from far right groups are
:48:27. > :48:29.capitalising on this? One of things that - I take things on face
:48:29. > :48:34.value, so I went there yesterday really speak to people and
:48:34. > :48:38.because I felt a sense of anger and frustration that things weren't
:48:38. > :48:42.getting done. One of the things that angered me was the knee-jerk
:48:42. > :48:45.reaction that if you have 100 white working class people out on the
:48:45. > :48:49.streets then necessarily they are going to be influenced by the far
:48:49. > :48:51.right or they are going to become thugs. So they weren't there? There
:48:51. > :48:54.may have been a couple of individuals but I didn't get the
:48:54. > :48:58.sense - there were no racist chants there and people were genuine, they
:48:58. > :49:01.were talking about football, about normal everyday things. There is
:49:01. > :49:04.this attitude from the chattering classes in particular that
:49:05. > :49:09.group of working class, white working class people now who get
:49:09. > :49:11.together are just going to be right wing authoritarian thugs. There
:49:11. > :49:15.seems to be no alternative. you have the right to
:49:15. > :49:17.own property but if the best do that is to defend your community
:49:17. > :49:21.and we are all in favour of communities apparently, what's
:49:21. > :49:25.with that? It's how far you the defence of your community within
:49:25. > :49:28.the law. What we don't want to see is a group of white middle class
:49:28. > :49:33.people as has been to the streets. Is that different to
:49:33. > :49:38.any other gang? We've just had a discussion about gang culture and
:49:38. > :49:41.that's what we don't want to see. We would like to see these numbers
:49:41. > :49:45.police officers on the streets of London every night but we can't
:49:45. > :49:49.sustain that. Do you think it adds to your workload when people turn
:49:49. > :49:52.out like this, is that saying? It can do yes because
:49:53. > :49:55.members of the public don't whether it's a good gang or a bad
:49:55. > :49:59.gang. We would like police to deal with all of the calls we
:49:59. > :50:02.get. Resources will be cut. We heard tonight the debate about that.
:50:02. > :50:07.are going to lose numbers. will be less police officers out
:50:07. > :50:11.there and we don't want vigilante groups to replace us. Sorry, we are
:50:11. > :50:15.going to have to leave it there. One of the big puzzles is exactly
:50:16. > :50:20.what drove the what drove the looters: greed,
:50:20. > :50:23.thuggery, complete lack of any moral sense? Others see different lessons
:50:23. > :50:33.from social breakdown, poverty, including poverty of expectations
:50:33. > :50:47.
:50:47. > :50:57.and moral chaos behind the scenes of the last few days.
:50:57. > :51:02.
:51:03. > :51:06.# This morning I woke up in a curfew # That's why we are gonna be
:51:06. > :51:16.# That's why we are gonna be # That's why we are gonna be
:51:16. > :51:19.
:51:19. > :51:27.# This morning I # burnin' and a lootin' tonight #
:51:27. > :51:28.MUSIC: "Burnin' And Lootin'" by Bob Marley.
:51:28. > :51:29.Marley. Marley.
:51:29. > :51:35.MUSIC: "Burnin' And To talk about this I'm joined by
:51:35. > :51:41.former speech writer to Cameron who wrote the so-called
:51:41. > :51:45.hug-a-hoodie speech and also Guardian columnist Zoe Williams.
:51:46. > :51:49.You mentioned today the looters were brought up in erratic and bad
:51:49. > :51:52.discipline. Bad families, is the core of your argument?
:51:52. > :51:59.they are themselves the product after dysfunctional society and
:51:59. > :52:03.Prime Minister said position of our community are sick and that's a fair
:52:03. > :52:07.and accurate criticism. It's harsh but we need to speak harshly. There
:52:08. > :52:10.is a lack of the moral language which sustains a society -
:52:11. > :52:13.goes through generations? Yes, and the heart of the problem is to
:52:13. > :52:17.with the upbringing of children I wouldn't blame parents
:52:17. > :52:23.for that. They themselves occupy culture and community and all of
:52:23. > :52:26.are ultimately responsible for the way our nation's children behave.
:52:26. > :52:31.Zoe you wrote also today but were talking about among other
:52:31. > :52:34.shopping riots and a glorified mugging. Did you see this as the
:52:34. > :52:38.have-notes just grabbing something? There is the authoritarian
:52:38. > :52:43.which says it's a sense of entitlement, these people
:52:43. > :52:46.sense of responsibility, they think only of what you should do for
:52:46. > :52:50.and at the other end of the you have the argument that they are
:52:50. > :52:54.the product of a brutalised poverty in which they see all this
:52:54. > :52:59.they will never afford it, there is endemic unemployment, they have
:52:59. > :53:04.their noses rubbed in it and can see no kind of consequence. You do
:53:04. > :53:08.many people, especially in the criminological community who occupy
:53:08. > :53:11.the bang centre who say there might be a problem in the criminal justice
:53:11. > :53:16.system, it might be too lenient but the fact is how could you have a
:53:17. > :53:21.sense of a lot to lose if you have anything to lose? Is part of it
:53:21. > :53:24.as some say dependency other words that you expect - and
:53:24. > :53:30.also entitlement culture, you are owed something and you
:53:30. > :53:34.take it if you can't get it? Yes, and the worst of that is there is no
:53:34. > :53:37.gratitude. a reliance on the state or sense of
:53:37. > :53:40.belonging, it breeds the opposite, resentment against the society which
:53:41. > :53:44.thinks you are worth 100 fortnight. So yes, there is
:53:44. > :53:49.genuine problem with the fact that people are better off out of
:53:49. > :53:53.They don't want to get into work, don't even want to start climbing
:53:54. > :53:58.the ladder out to work because they lose their housing. Can I raise the
:53:58. > :54:02.issue of unemployment here because it really bothers me. Anybody
:54:02. > :54:05.right says: it should pay to work. Of course, but when unemployment is
:54:05. > :54:09.the highest since records began in 1992 I don't think you can
:54:09. > :54:12.legitimately say these people to be shown the benefits of a job.
:54:12. > :54:16.Nevertheless, we are drawing in immigrants to do the jobs that we
:54:16. > :54:22.won't do. I totally understand and agree with the problem - I don't
:54:22. > :54:27.think that's the same You are not saying jobs these 17 or
:54:27. > :54:30.18-year-olds can get are being taken by Polish people and even if it were
:54:30. > :54:34.were the case, that would be to do with wage settlements not being high
:54:34. > :54:38.enough. There is a genuine with a lack of belief that work is a
:54:38. > :54:42.root for you. I agree that's part to do with lack of supply of
:54:42. > :54:44.jobs young people are able or to do but there is also a cultural
:54:44. > :54:48.input into their childhood tells them there is no point in
:54:48. > :54:52.trying to work because this isn't something that will do them well -
:54:52. > :54:55.I think that's an extreme reading though. When you say there aren't
:54:55. > :54:59.jobs for you how are you to say don't believe in having a job if the
:54:59. > :55:03.job isn't there for you to reject? There needs a culture of work
:55:03. > :55:06.that requires jobs to be there, I totally understand, however there
:55:06. > :55:10.a supply and demand side of this equation and we are not supplying
:55:10. > :55:14.the economy with people who are prepared and want to work. Can I
:55:14. > :55:17.inject a wider note here which is, you talked about this kind of
:55:18. > :55:22.culture where you talked about bling culture earlier in
:55:22. > :55:26.this evening, but if you watch the news at any time in the past two
:55:26. > :55:29.three years and you look at the financial news today, at bankers'
:55:29. > :55:32.salaries and so on, you might conclude that our whole society is
:55:32. > :55:38.run on the greed principle? I that is right. What I do now is run
:55:38. > :55:41.a charity working with prisoners and ex-offenders and we have a dinner
:55:41. > :55:45.we do it every Wednesday night - every week we have this discussion
:55:45. > :55:48.and every week the point is made: why should we do the right
:55:48. > :55:51.when there is this culture of greed and consumption at the top?
:55:51. > :55:55.agree with it. I think the bankers work hard and deserve to be well
:55:55. > :55:58.paid. Whether they are paid the right amount, I don't know, but -
:55:58. > :56:03.What about being held to account a huge financial disaster though?
:56:03. > :56:07.The extent to which the bankers are personally responsible is perhaps
:56:07. > :56:12.debate for another week than this one. He might as well, we've talked
:56:12. > :56:16.about everything else. Quite, but there is this sense that our society
:56:16. > :56:19.is too radically split and there is an unprivilegable gulf and that the
:56:19. > :56:24.MPs have their hands in the till, the bankers are ripping us
:56:24. > :56:27.that is a terrible thing culturally. I don't think the gulf is
:56:27. > :56:31.unbridgeable. There is good evidence to show that when society is unequal
:56:31. > :56:35.as it is at the moment and people at the top are earning 248 times what
:56:35. > :56:39.people at the bottom are earning, that has a number of negative
:56:39. > :56:43.consequences, one of which is family breakdown, another is social unrest.
:56:43. > :56:50.These are not unbridgeable issues. All you have to do is address the
:56:50. > :56:53.financial equality. You can't just let it ride. OK, my priority
:56:53. > :56:57.not be financial equality or inequality, it would be improving
:56:57. > :57:01.the local social relationships young people grow up in. I agree
:57:01. > :57:09.there's a macroeconomics aspect to that and a story about equality
:57:09. > :57:13.which we could address but most directly it's the environment. But
:57:13. > :57:17.all the things which you would interrupt family bonding and empathy
:57:17. > :57:22.such as absent parents, drug addiction, poverty, all of these
:57:22. > :57:26.spring from social inequality. think they also spring from a large
:57:26. > :57:29.centralised state which produces these mass entitlements
:57:29. > :57:33.standardisations and totally disempowers people from communities
:57:33. > :57:36.they belong to. That isn't evidenced. You can believe that but
:57:36. > :57:40.I think it would be better approach the things that you have
:57:40. > :57:43.evidence to approach. Thank both very much.
:57:43. > :57:46.One other huge story this week which One other huge story this week which
:57:46. > :57:50.has been swamped by our domestic difficulties is the market meltdown
:57:50. > :57:53.on the world economy. With the latest from New York I'm joined by
:57:53. > :57:58.our business correspondent Michelle Fleury. What has been happening
:57:58. > :58:03.there? Well, US stocks followed Europe's lead and they started off
:58:03. > :58:06.lower. We saw wild swings in the final hour of trading on the
:58:06. > :58:11.floor of the New York Stock Exchange with the Dow Jones losing more than
:58:11. > :58:15.100 points in the final few minutes to close down over 500 points lower.
:58:15. > :58:20.Part of what's driving this as far as we can tell is fears of another
:58:20. > :58:22.global banking crisis. Now, people obviously last week are at the
:58:22. > :58:25.beginning - or at the beginning of this week were worried about
:58:25. > :58:30.America's credit rating. focus has shifted to France and
:58:30. > :58:35.whether or not that country's credit rating will be downgraded. The major
:58:35. > :58:38.ratings agency has ratings agency has don't foresee
:58:38. > :58:44.that, certainly not at the moment, but that didn't reassure
:58:44. > :58:47.Is the outlook unrelieved gloom? was on the floor of
:58:47. > :58:50.Stock Exchange a bit earlier talking to traders and a lot of them are
:58:50. > :58:55.scratching their heads, saying: look, there is this huge degree
:58:55. > :58:59.fear at the moment. Yes, the risks are real for sure, of a global
:58:59. > :59:03.recession, or at least sort of of potential recession here
:59:03. > :59:08.United States, but nonetheless what's driving the markets right now
:59:08. > :59:13.is just this desire not to hold anything they perceive to be risky.
:59:13. > :59:16.They Don want to hold onto anything for too long and that's why you are
:59:16. > :59:19.seeing these very much.
:59:19. > :59:23.Tomorrow morning's front page. Daily Mail has the grieving father's
:59:23. > :59:27.voice of sanity. Extraordinary dignity of Tariq Jahan talking about
:59:27. > :59:32.the death of his son which described in the Mail as a race
:59:32. > :59:41.murder of three young Asians which "sends riot city to boiling point".
:59:41. > :59:44.The Telegraph has our sick society. Looters in court include a grammar
:59:44. > :59:44.assistant. Riots,
:59:44. > :59:44.assistant. Riots, Cameron
:59:44. > :59:45.assistant. Riots, Cameron under
:59:45. > :59:52.assistant. Riots, Cameron under attack,
:59:52. > :59:56.Johnson calls for a U-turn in police numbers.
:59:56. > :00:00.Pressure to scrap police cuts as Pressure to scrap police cuts as
:00:00. > :00:01.Pressure to scrap police cuts as Birmingham mourns its dead is
:00:01. > :00:01.Birmingham mourns its dead is Birmingham mourns its dead is
:00:01. > :00:04.Pressure to scrap theguardian's front page and the
:00:04. > :00:08.pictures of the three young killed.
:00:08. > :00:11.The FT has focus on the crisis turns to France, and a rather
:00:11. > :00:15.gloomy looking of England, Mervyn King,
:00:15. > :00:25.front page. That's all from Newsnight tonight. We will be back
:00:25. > :00:48.
:00:48. > :00:49.with more tomorrow. Keep safe. Goodnight.
:00:49. > :00:52.Hello. Some heavy rain through the Hello. Some heavy rain through the
:00:52. > :00:57.night across parts of the country. The biggest concern will be in
:00:57. > :01:00.Scotland over the next few days. Could see surface flooding, even
:01:00. > :01:04.river flooding across central eastern areas.
:01:04. > :01:05.Heavy rain will work southwards and Heavy rain will work southwards and
:01:05. > :01:06.Heavy rain will work southwards and eastwards. Still persistent rain in
:01:06. > :01:07.eastwards. Still persistent rain in eastwards. Still persistent rain in
:01:07. > :01:10.Heavy rain will southern Scotland and the northeast
:01:10. > :01:15.but lighter than it will have through the morning. Some
:01:15. > :01:18.showers elsewhere. A few brighter breaks into the afternoon on that
:01:18. > :01:21.southwest wind and temperatures into the low 20s.
:01:21. > :01:25.For the southwest and Wales, we will For the southwest and Wales, we will
:01:25. > :01:30.see wetter conditions in morning. Afternoon, some lighter,
:01:30. > :01:34.patch I did not showers. flow across the southern half of the
:01:34. > :01:39.UK, some mist and hill fog possible. Northern Ireland, into the
:01:39. > :01:43.afternoon, brighter in the south, wetter in the north. The northern
:01:43. > :01:52.half of Scotland, the keen wind will be easing so it should be
:01:52. > :01:57.Across the north, a difference in Across the north, a difference in
:01:57. > :02:01.temperatures but rain should be lighter and patchier. Further south