:00:07. > :00:13.David Cameron declares a fightback against looters, the sick society,
:00:13. > :00:16.and anyone who dares say the police shouldn't be cut. As suspects'
:00:16. > :00:23.homes are raided, the Prime Minister says police tactics were
:00:23. > :00:28.wrong and there were simply not enough officers on the street.
:00:28. > :00:33.truth is that the police have been facing a new and unique challenge.
:00:33. > :00:37.With different people doing the same thing, a sickly looting in
:00:37. > :00:40.different places, but all at the same time.
:00:40. > :00:42.We ask the Labour leader, Ed Miliband, if it's politics that's
:00:42. > :00:45.failed the people. Are parents to blame for failing to
:00:45. > :00:51.discipline their children? We hear from the father of a 16 year old
:00:51. > :00:56.accused of burglary in the riots. Yes, it is his responsibility. How
:00:56. > :00:59.can I be to blame for something he is doing if I am asleep?
:01:00. > :01:02.Can parents like him be doing more? A pop star, a former Deputy Mayor
:01:03. > :01:12.of London, and an expert in family policy give us their views.
:01:13. > :01:15.
:01:15. > :01:18.And diversity behind the turmoil - Good evening. And so today, the
:01:18. > :01:22.fightback from David Cameron in the House of Commons in that rare
:01:22. > :01:26.recall of parliament. The PM seemed far removed from the Husky Dog
:01:26. > :01:31.Hugging of his early years as leader. Today, the message was
:01:31. > :01:34.unambiguous and it was tough. He pledged to crack down on gangs, to
:01:34. > :01:39.confiscate rioters' assets and even to offer police new powers to curb
:01:39. > :01:42.the use of social media and messaging. And he also pointed to
:01:42. > :01:45.initial failings of the police, saying the tactics they had used,
:01:46. > :01:48.hadn't worked. But what of the increasing calls from the
:01:48. > :01:49.opposition to rethink cuts to the police? Those were categorically
:01:50. > :01:59.rejected. Our political correspondent, David Grossman,
:02:00. > :02:00.
:02:00. > :02:06.reports. The riots, we have been told, were
:02:06. > :02:10.pointless, a declaration of will power. Looters trying to show
:02:10. > :02:14.everyone who is in charge. The same could be said about the recall of
:02:14. > :02:21.Parliament, they are not debating legislation today or will they have
:02:21. > :02:26.a vote, it is all about sending a message about who is in charge. The
:02:26. > :02:29.rise in police numbers from 3,000 to 16,000 officers on the streets
:02:29. > :02:36.of London since the Prime Minister came back from holiday seems to
:02:36. > :02:39.have worked, helped by the rain, nature's gentle water cannon. In
:02:39. > :02:44.the X -- in the unexpected august House of Commons, the Prime
:02:44. > :02:49.Minister said what he thought were the causes. It is preposterous for
:02:49. > :02:53.anyone to suggest anyone rooting in Tottenham at the weekend and three
:02:53. > :03:00.days later in Salford were doing so because of the death of Mark Duggan
:03:00. > :03:05.-- looting. The young people stealing and burning shops, that
:03:05. > :03:09.was not politics or protests, it was theft. He outlined a series of
:03:09. > :03:13.measures to help tackle future disturbances. The army could be
:03:13. > :03:18.used to guard government and other buildings to free up police and the
:03:18. > :03:22.law on face masks will be changed to allow police officers to order
:03:22. > :03:27.anyone at to remove a hoard or mask if they think it is used with
:03:27. > :03:32.criminal intent. And there will be a review of sentences but this will
:03:32. > :03:37.not affect anyone involved in the riots. And there will be help for
:03:37. > :03:40.victims, money to help rebuild businesses and relief from taxes.
:03:40. > :03:45.there is a major problem in our society with children not knowing
:03:45. > :03:50.the difference between right and wrong. This is not about poverty
:03:50. > :03:52.but culture, a culture that glorified violence, shows
:03:53. > :03:57.disrespect to authority and says everything about right but nothing
:03:58. > :04:01.about responsibilities. The Labour leader -- the Labour leader echoed
:04:01. > :04:06.the Prime Minister's statement, at no repeat of the charge some in his
:04:06. > :04:12.party have made that the government's cuts were the cause of
:04:12. > :04:16.the riots. For Ed Miliband, it was cut going forward that worried him.
:04:16. > :04:21.It has been in stark reminder that police on our streets make
:04:21. > :04:25.communities safer and people feel safer. Given the priority the
:04:25. > :04:28.public attached to a visible and active police presence, does the
:04:28. > :04:32.Prime Minister understand why they would think it is not right he goes
:04:32. > :04:40.ahead with the cuts to police numbers he has planned? Will he
:04:40. > :04:46.think again about this decision? was just the first of 20 MPs to
:04:46. > :04:52.raise the question of cuts to the police budget. Now is not the time.
:04:52. > :04:56.Fewer is the wrong policy at the wrong time for our society.
:04:56. > :05:02.time I spent in Croydon it was incredibly powerful to hear about
:05:02. > :05:06.the immense frustration and anger those shopkeepers and householders
:05:07. > :05:11.and tenants felt. But the problem was that the police were not on the
:05:11. > :05:17.street, the problem was not about police budgets in four years' time
:05:17. > :05:20.but about the availability of the police right now. There are 32,000
:05:20. > :05:24.officers in the mat and we needed more on the streets more quickly
:05:24. > :05:28.and more to Croydon, it is about now and not the budgets of the
:05:28. > :05:32.future -- in the Metropolitan Police. This is where the party
:05:32. > :05:37.political battle has caught fire. Over the next four years, the
:05:37. > :05:42.coalition will cut the police budget by 6% in cash terms, but
:05:42. > :05:45.factor in inflation and it is more like 20%. Labour says you cannot
:05:46. > :05:50.make savings like that without affecting the number of officers
:05:50. > :05:55.for frontline duties. The coalition says you can use in deficiencies,
:05:55. > :06:01.and both have big official report to back up their case. The
:06:01. > :06:09.government relies on the report of Tom Windsor which found 43% of rank
:06:09. > :06:11.and file officers keep normal office hours, unlike 100% of
:06:11. > :06:16.rioters. More officers are available on a Monday morning found
:06:16. > :06:21.Saturday night and the government says that must change. The
:06:22. > :06:26.opposition quits heavily from a report by her Majesty's inspector
:06:26. > :06:32.of constabulary which says the cuts will see a reduction of 16,200
:06:32. > :06:38.police officers, but 30% of that have already been lost. And that
:06:38. > :06:44.only takes the total down to what it was in 2004. But the report is
:06:44. > :06:48.also pretty dismissive of the efficiency savings. Some forces, it
:06:49. > :06:53.says, claim the costs will exceed the savings. The Prime Minister's
:06:53. > :06:59.journey this week is not just his hasty flight back from Italy. He
:06:59. > :07:04.has also gone on an ideological trick. His previous criticism of
:07:04. > :07:13.CCTV is now apparently gone and he once promised to sweep away the
:07:13. > :07:16.whole rotten edifice of Labour's surveillance sake -- state.
:07:17. > :07:21.concerns about publishing these photographs. Bringing these
:07:21. > :07:26.criminals to justice! Ed Miliband has stopped his party indulging in
:07:26. > :07:31.the instincts of some to blame the riots on the government's economic
:07:31. > :07:34.policy. In his critique of future police cuts, he has found a strong
:07:34. > :07:37.narrative and it is now down to who the public believes.
:07:37. > :07:40.Well, David Cameron has said that the riots showed that pockets of
:07:40. > :07:46.our society are sick. Does Labour leader Ed Miliband agree? I caught
:07:46. > :07:51.up with him a short while ago to find out. I would not put it that
:07:51. > :07:54.way. I think there are people in our society who did appalling and
:07:54. > :07:59.sickening things and I have been horrified by what happened, and
:07:59. > :08:04.never thought it would come to this in Britain and it would happen. I
:08:04. > :08:07.was in Peckham where some of the riots happened and were surrounded
:08:07. > :08:12.by eight the majority of people who were good and hated what was
:08:12. > :08:16.happening as much as me and you and David Cameron, so you cannot
:08:16. > :08:21.describe part of our country as sick but some of the people and
:08:21. > :08:28.what they have done in sick in what they did. And there were problems
:08:28. > :08:33.in society we need to tackle. a curious echo of what Tony Blair
:08:33. > :08:38.said in 1993, he talked of part of the country being sick, did the
:08:38. > :08:43.Labour government failed to tackle it? The Labour government made a
:08:43. > :08:46.difference to the country. One of the inspiring things was being in
:08:46. > :08:51.Manchester this week and seen for thousands of young people who came
:08:51. > :08:55.out to help with the clean-up, that is a sign of good things in society.
:08:55. > :09:01.I said a few months ago we have done a lot to improve the fabric of
:09:01. > :09:05.society but we have not necessarily tackled issues around affix, that
:09:05. > :09:11.includes responsibility. Not just the rioting and looting and what we
:09:11. > :09:17.saw this week, but other issues at the top of us -- at the top of our
:09:17. > :09:21.society. And at the top of society, do you accept some of that
:09:21. > :09:26.responsibility for being for party in power when these children and
:09:26. > :09:30.these looters were growing up under Labour? Of course I accept
:09:30. > :09:34.responsibility. I said in my response today you cannot lay the
:09:34. > :09:38.blame at any single government and that is really important. Good
:09:38. > :09:44.causes are complex, I think we made a positive difference to the
:09:45. > :09:48.country but we have to accept out - - except our share of
:09:48. > :09:51.responsibility. It is individual criminal acts but it is people who
:09:51. > :09:56.think they have nothing to lose from doing first and everything to
:09:56. > :10:04.gain from stealing their television, destroying people's lives and
:10:04. > :10:09.businesses, appalling events. New Labour fostered that
:10:09. > :10:18.acquisitive nature and were relaxed about people getting Ralphie --
:10:18. > :10:21.getting wealthy. We were wrong to say that. You have got to send a
:10:21. > :10:26.message about the culture of responsibility throughout society.
:10:26. > :10:31.I am not going to say that bankers are like the looters, that is
:10:32. > :10:36.ridiculous. But the echo of a lack of responsibility we have seen at
:10:36. > :10:42.the top of society from some people in the banking community, from MPs,
:10:42. > :10:46.even phone hacking, that ethic is something that we need to stamp out.
:10:46. > :10:51.We need responsibility throughout our society from top-to-bottom.
:10:51. > :10:58.it responsible for your deputy leader to list specific coalition
:10:58. > :11:02.policies, cuts to EMAs and tuition fees and 0.2 that as being
:11:02. > :11:07.connected to the riots? I saw Newsnight and Harriet made it clear
:11:07. > :11:13.there was no excuse for the violence. She was linking them.
:11:13. > :11:17.me give you be definitive review. I will not lay the blame at the door
:11:17. > :11:24.of this Government and say it happened because of cuts de EMAs
:11:24. > :11:28.that is too simplistic. She did. She did not, but let's not argue
:11:28. > :11:34.about what she said. It is too complicated to say it is just the
:11:34. > :11:39.blame of one government or policy, Barak issues of responsibility. But
:11:40. > :11:45.also of opportunity. Her -- there are issues. Of course it is also
:11:45. > :11:51.right to say that when people think the best they can do in society is
:11:51. > :11:57.stealing stuff and there are opportunities... If you are making
:11:57. > :12:03.massive cuts, there was also the potential for this sort of revolt
:12:03. > :12:10.against that, those with awards -- those were the words of York
:12:10. > :12:13.mayoral candidate, Ken Livingston. The first thing he said it was
:12:13. > :12:18.order needed to be restored and there was no excuse for the
:12:18. > :12:24.violence. If he said the riots were caused by a particular policy, I do
:12:24. > :12:31.not agree with that. Where any part of the riots a revolt against these
:12:31. > :12:36.cuts? -- were any. That is too simplistic. The responsibility is
:12:36. > :12:42.not to jump to knee-jerk conclusions from left or right.
:12:42. > :12:47.That is what Ken Livingston has been doing! He said a lot of things.
:12:47. > :12:52.The responsibility of us, and this is why I think there needs to be a
:12:52. > :12:59.public inquiry, because we need to hear from the law-abiding people
:12:59. > :13:02.and we need to reflect on the issues -- to hear from. Inequality,
:13:02. > :13:06.responsibility. Societies where people do not have a stake are
:13:06. > :13:15.likely to be places where social disorder happens. Was Harriet
:13:15. > :13:22.Harman pulled up for what she said, and Ken Livingston? Yes? Both of
:13:22. > :13:31.them are Queer there can be no excuse for it and they have to make
:13:31. > :13:35.it clear -- both of them have to make it clear that. You are talking
:13:35. > :13:39.today about police cuts going forward, do you think if numbers
:13:39. > :13:45.are cut back to where they were five years ago, it would be an
:13:45. > :13:50.apocalyptic scenario? I am level- headed and will not predict that.
:13:50. > :13:57.But it is very important for the public ferry safety on the streets
:13:57. > :14:02.and a visible police presence, we have seen the effect of that -- and
:14:02. > :14:07.there is safety. It is not right to make cuts to police officers and
:14:07. > :14:11.the public do not want that. It is their responsibility to look again
:14:11. > :14:16.at that issue. I am very surprised the Prime Minister has not agreed
:14:16. > :14:22.to a public inquiry. We cannot have the calamitous events of the last
:14:22. > :14:26.few days and say we will not have an in-depth look. Do you think that
:14:26. > :14:33.the cuts David Cameron is proposing put the British public at risk?
:14:33. > :14:37.not going to put it that way. Let me put it in my way, I think the
:14:38. > :14:42.cuts that have been made of very bad for society. So we are more at
:14:42. > :14:49.risk? I will not save there are going to be more riots, come off
:14:49. > :14:53.it! Of the public more vulnerable as a result of these cuts? What I
:14:53. > :14:59.carried out, safety on the streets, the next generation doing better
:14:59. > :15:05.than the last, the chances for young people, are set back by the
:15:05. > :15:10.cuts. I am not going to play a word game. It is not responsible of need
:15:10. > :15:14.to say there will be riots because of these cuts. People want to know
:15:14. > :15:18.what difference this makes. People are interested in safety on the
:15:18. > :15:24.street and there is more likely to be safety a police numbers are
:15:24. > :15:29.maintained, of course that is right. So if numbers are not maintained,
:15:29. > :15:34.they are not as safe? That is a word games. Safety is paramount and
:15:34. > :15:44.of course you are more likely to have safety if police numbers on
:15:44. > :15:45.
:15:45. > :15:48.As we have heard, David Cameron made it clear today he believed the
:15:49. > :15:53.police tactics during the riots were wrong. A charge I put to the
:15:53. > :15:58.man who represents chief police officers, Sir Hugh Orde. No I don't.
:15:58. > :16:02.The police faced an unprecedented situation, not just in London, but
:16:02. > :16:05.across the country. They were truly unique circumstances. What the
:16:05. > :16:09.service did, as it always does is learn and respond with incredible
:16:09. > :16:13.speed. We went, as the Prime Minister acknowledged, from 6,000
:16:13. > :16:17.officers in London, for example, to the most officers deployed ever on
:16:18. > :16:21.one event, to 16,000 the following night. At that point, you saw,
:16:21. > :16:24.while the violence continued and moved around the country to
:16:24. > :16:28.different locations, the force responded, I think magnificently.
:16:28. > :16:32.And the officers put huge effort into protecting communities and
:16:32. > :16:36.more importantly protecting life. What would you say then there are
:16:36. > :16:42.far too police deployed on the streets and the tactics, bluntly,
:16:42. > :16:45.were not working? I don't possess foresight, neither do my chief
:16:45. > :16:49.police officer colleagues. This was a new set of circumstances. The
:16:49. > :16:51.trick there is to make sure you respond and learn quickly. One of
:16:51. > :16:55.the great strengths of an independent police service, the
:16:55. > :17:01.like of which we have in this country, is we do that. We are
:17:01. > :17:04.transparent. We do learn quickly and we pull together. The leaders
:17:04. > :17:08.of this service, all of whom understand the work line, because
:17:09. > :17:14.they have been there, work tirelessly to support each other in
:17:14. > :17:18.ACPO to make sure we have the staff at the right places. The tactics
:17:19. > :17:22.decided by chief officers and their staff, being put in and the model
:17:22. > :17:27.of policing sustained and the robust policing tactics we choose
:17:27. > :17:31.to adopt delivered. Why did it take politicians coming back from
:17:31. > :17:35.holiday to get the police to do what they already have the power to
:17:36. > :17:41.do. Theresa May, for example, specifically said she had ordered
:17:41. > :17:44.the cancellation of all police leave. The Home Secretary has no
:17:44. > :17:48.power whatsoever to order the cancellation of police leave. The
:17:48. > :17:53.fact that politicians choose to come back is an irrelevance in
:17:53. > :17:57.terms of a tactic which is then developing. The vehicle tactics you
:17:57. > :18:00.saw, the more robust policing tactics you saw were not a function
:18:00. > :18:04.of political interference. They were a function of the numbers
:18:04. > :18:08.being available to allow the chief constables to change their tactics
:18:08. > :18:12.to the number of staff they had. know that cuts to police numbers
:18:12. > :18:15.are coming. Do you believe it will make people less safe? We are, as a
:18:15. > :18:21.police service, we are determined to keep people as safe as we can,
:18:21. > :18:27.with the resources we have been given. It is true there are cuts of
:18:27. > :18:30.20% to policing over this current spending period. Inevitably and
:18:30. > :18:35.predictablely that will lead to less police officers. We have been
:18:35. > :18:38.very clear about that. It will lead to less police staff. Therefore,
:18:38. > :18:40.it's more difficult. Her Majesty's inspectorate reported the
:18:40. > :18:45.leadership of the service has minimised the impact on the front
:18:45. > :18:48.line by taking people out of other places. But the chief inspectors
:18:48. > :18:53.acknowledged in years three and four of the spending period that
:18:53. > :18:56.becomes far more difficult. We need to have some very honest
:18:56. > :19:01.conversations with Governments about what we stop doing if we are
:19:01. > :19:06.to maintain front-line service delivery at current levels.
:19:06. > :19:10.Orde, thank you. Joining me now is the deputy leader of the Liberal
:19:10. > :19:15.Democrats, Simon Hughes. Let's start there. This seems to be where
:19:15. > :19:18.the political line has been drawn on police numbers. Should the
:19:18. > :19:22.public be concerned about these cuts? Yes, they should be. They
:19:22. > :19:25.should ask the question, will it affect the service, will it affect
:19:25. > :19:29.the number of people on the street? I have always taken the view you
:19:29. > :19:33.don't get a direct read across between numbers of police officers
:19:34. > :19:37.and effective policing. It is how you deploy them. One example,
:19:37. > :19:41.admitted by the police, this last week has revealed when you needed
:19:41. > :19:46.them to be dealing with riots and demonstrations, actually most of
:19:46. > :19:50.them couldn't do that, because only about one in five, of what are
:19:50. > :19:54.called level two officers, who are trained to have riot control gear
:19:54. > :20:00.and head gear. The rest had to be withdrawn. That is not satisfactory.
:20:00. > :20:04.You need most police officers to be able to deal with that if needed.
:20:04. > :20:07.That is an organisational thing you are talking about. Will the cuts of
:20:07. > :20:12.20% in real terms make a difference? Of course it might make
:20:12. > :20:15.a difference. The Government so far has been very firm. It is saying
:20:15. > :20:19.for budgetary reasons we had the Chancellor re-enforced today, we
:20:19. > :20:23.have to stand firm on public expenditure. The police will try
:20:23. > :20:29.and adapt. You may well get a much more different type of police
:20:29. > :20:33.service. If you have more volunteers, more civilians doing
:20:33. > :20:37.more things uniformed people do. You could get as good policing the
:20:37. > :20:42.numbers we will have, which is less than numbers. You say you could get.
:20:42. > :20:47.Do you think we will? It depends how well the police respond.
:20:47. > :20:49.you putting that to Nick Clegg as a concern? Would you like him to....
:20:49. > :20:52.Of course I have registered that it is a concern. I understand the
:20:52. > :20:56.Government's position. The Government are saying at the moment,
:20:56. > :21:00.look we've set our course for the next four years. We have to get the
:21:00. > :21:06.economy under control. I accept that. Nick Clegg is not looking at
:21:06. > :21:10.this as an issue, despite all the questions, post the last set of
:21:10. > :21:15.elections, going your own way and showing your own spine, he is not.
:21:15. > :21:19.I have come from a party with wr we ask you -- argue you need the
:21:19. > :21:23.police out there, visible. Of course it's an issue. Nick Clegg is
:21:24. > :21:28.our party leader and the Government understand that. There's one other
:21:28. > :21:31.issue that clearly.... Do you think they'll change their mind on this
:21:31. > :21:35.one? It is on the agenda. The difficulty for Labour in arguing it
:21:35. > :21:39.is that they don't have any alternative as to where the money
:21:39. > :21:42.would come from. They would have had cuts too. They would have
:21:42. > :21:47.reduced the budget for the Home Office. It is not as if they are in
:21:47. > :21:51.a strong position to argue.... coalition partners are the
:21:51. > :21:54.Conservatives. Do you think they are having a tremor now and
:21:55. > :21:58.thinking for political reasons for public reasons this will not look
:21:58. > :22:02.good? There'll have to be a review of policing in England after the
:22:02. > :22:04.events of this week. The Home Affairs Select Committee is the
:22:04. > :22:08.right place to start. They may come up with recommendations on this
:22:08. > :22:11.issue. I think the Government, an intelligent Government will want to
:22:11. > :22:15.hear the evidence from the police and the public. At the moment the
:22:15. > :22:19.public don't think the problems were caused by police cuts. They
:22:19. > :22:23.think they were by criminality and gangs. We have to watch this space.
:22:23. > :22:26.I want to get you on a few areas that David Cameron was talking
:22:26. > :22:33.about. He was talking about fast- tracking people through the courts.
:22:33. > :22:38.More use of CCTV. Nothing more of that edifice of Labour surveillance
:22:38. > :22:42.state and a draconian sounding plan to interfere with private messaging
:22:42. > :22:46.services. This must be uncomfortable territory for you?
:22:46. > :22:50.live in one of the areas affected. I was out there the other night
:22:51. > :22:55.seeing what was happening. I take the view you have to have curfews.
:22:55. > :22:58.You have to have further powers to require people to take off their
:22:58. > :23:03.face coverings. You have to ask questions about whether you can
:23:03. > :23:06.just allow all the mobile phone companies.... Checking people's
:23:06. > :23:11.private messaging services, this sound like something that would
:23:11. > :23:14.come out of Iran. That is not what is being argued. With the co-
:23:14. > :23:17.operation with the companies you address the question as to whether
:23:17. > :23:21.on occasions there could be interventions. We are not there yet.
:23:21. > :23:24.One last thing, we have to make sure that young people and the
:23:24. > :23:28.youth services are supported. There'll be a debate about making
:23:28. > :23:33.sure we do that better. Parents and young people need to be better
:23:33. > :23:36.supported too. Thank you. Thank you for coming in. If your
:23:36. > :23:39.child return with a brand new pair of trainers or a PlayStation, or if
:23:39. > :23:44.you don't know where they were last night, question them. A rallying
:23:44. > :23:49.call from community leaders to parents in the light of Britain's
:23:49. > :23:54.worst rioting for decades. How many have scared to pick them up on
:23:54. > :23:59.their actions or who did not think they had done wrong? Are
:23:59. > :24:03.politicians right to focus on how we are raising our children? Our
:24:03. > :24:07.correspondent has spent the day in Tottenham, speaking to those who
:24:07. > :24:13.live there. There's no more room for it.
:24:13. > :24:16.These children need a good whipping. A good whipping.
:24:16. > :24:20.No respect from the parents, no understanding. Most of the things
:24:20. > :24:25.you learn in life, most of them are from my friends. When you are
:24:25. > :24:28.outside on the road, it's different. There's no parents about.
:24:28. > :24:33.Government t police, even the X Factor have been blamed for the
:24:33. > :24:39.unrest this week. Now politicians have settled on something else. So
:24:39. > :24:44.now bad parenting is coming into it. Can you blame looting across the
:24:44. > :24:49.country on mums and dads? There's one way to find out and it's not by
:24:49. > :24:55.speaking to the parents themselves. This youth club in Tottenham helps
:24:56. > :24:59.young people get out of trouble and stay out of trouble. These
:24:59. > :25:03.youngsters were not involved with the riots, but they say they easily
:25:03. > :25:06.could have been. There's no respect from the parents. There's no
:25:06. > :25:11.understanding. No relationship. No communication. That is why they
:25:11. > :25:15.think we are free to do what we want. Does that come from the
:25:15. > :25:18.parents? It is the parent's fault. Obviously it comes down to your
:25:18. > :25:23.primary education, which is your parents. You live with your parents
:25:23. > :25:28.four or five. Then you go to school. School does not teach you that at
:25:28. > :25:33.that young age. If they haven't embedded it into you young they
:25:33. > :25:36.cannot expect it from you as an adolescent. Some young people are
:25:36. > :25:39.oblivious to everything around them and they are about themselves and
:25:39. > :25:43.they will have no regard for anything and will go against you,
:25:43. > :25:48.regardless of what you taught them. I was one of those kids. My mum
:25:48. > :25:53.would tell me. I wouldn't listen. I wanted to do my own thing. My mum
:25:53. > :25:57.raised me the best she can, really. I don't really like with parents,
:25:57. > :26:02.like when you're inside you're kind of different with your parents.
:26:02. > :26:07.Like you're more good, if you know what I mean. When you are outside,
:26:07. > :26:11.there's no parents about. So you kind of do what you want really.
:26:11. > :26:15.You have peer pressure. It's not just what parents taught you. Most
:26:15. > :26:19.of the things you learn in life, you learn from your friends. You
:26:19. > :26:22.learn from school, from your association. Do you think the
:26:22. > :26:27.greater influence is actually your friends rather than your parents?
:26:27. > :26:33.Yeah, because I mean, like, like, I would say when you're at home you
:26:33. > :26:37.only show about 30% of who you really are. When you're outside,
:26:37. > :26:41.the parents don't know what goes on outside. Big emphasis of the
:26:41. > :26:45.previous Labour Government was the Respect agenda and schemes to help
:26:45. > :26:48.parents and children. The young people I spoke to said schemes -
:26:49. > :26:53.what schemes? Do you know if your mum had any help from Government
:26:53. > :26:58.initiatives when you were younger? No. She didn't have nothing to help.
:26:58. > :27:03.Nothing. She never had no help, really. She just done what she knew
:27:03. > :27:08.what her mother told her what to do and stuff like that. She just done
:27:08. > :27:12.what she could really. Nothing direct. In summer they had summer
:27:12. > :27:16.schools open. Like boxing courses open. Stuff like that. Nothing
:27:16. > :27:23.direct or personal. What can they help them with? It a
:27:23. > :27:28.east not going to change the kids behaviour. If you are 14-15 you
:27:28. > :27:31.want to miss behave, what can your mum or dad say to you? When you got
:27:31. > :27:35.yourself out of violence that was not to do with a Government
:27:35. > :27:40.initiative. That was all you? was all me, really. They never done
:27:40. > :27:43.nothing for me. No Government help, minimal parenting and for some of
:27:43. > :27:48.these young people trouble in education.
:27:48. > :27:55.I got expelled from school at 12. I was expelled from three schools by
:27:55. > :27:58.12. You got excluded too? I was excluded from school. I also got
:27:58. > :28:03.arrested. I was just young and silly, if you know what I mean.
:28:03. > :28:08.Just going out, beating up people. Did your mum teach you that wasn't
:28:08. > :28:14.the right thing to do? She tried to. She tried her hardest to, but she
:28:14. > :28:19.also knows how it was because she was... She let me learn in my own
:28:19. > :28:25.time f you know what I mean. She didn't pressure me. She knows how
:28:25. > :28:29.the young atmosphere is, like. not too much discipline? Not too
:28:29. > :28:34.much, no. Sacha takes me to meet her mother in the council house
:28:34. > :28:38.they share with some of her four sisters. She says she wants to be a
:28:38. > :28:45.tough parent, but the Government won't let her.
:28:45. > :28:49.No. There's no bad parents. The Government, they give the kids the
:28:49. > :28:55.rights. Takeaway the rights from the parents and give it to the kids.
:28:55. > :28:59.So even if the parent are talking to their kids, you know. Do you
:28:59. > :29:03.feel disempowered? Yeah. It's the same message we're hear
:29:03. > :29:09.from teachers, police and community leaders. The question is; where did
:29:09. > :29:13.the power go? Is it too late to get it back?
:29:13. > :29:19.So how much are parents to blame for what has been happening.
:29:19. > :29:23.Joining me now the pop star Jamelia, who grew up in Birmingham in a
:29:24. > :29:30.single-parent family. Ray Lewis who works with young children at the
:29:30. > :29:35.Eastside Young Leaders Academy. Dalia Ben Galim from the IPPR.
:29:35. > :29:39.Thanks to you all for coming in. It is great to have you here. Jamelia,
:29:39. > :29:43.talk us through, you grew up in one of the areas, actually closely
:29:43. > :29:51.related to some of the rioting this week. Do you think a lot comes down
:29:51. > :29:55.to parenting? I think it's very easy to blame parents. I think it's
:29:55. > :29:58.- the main issue is society as a whole. I feel we are very
:29:58. > :30:03.segregated. We are not paying attention to what our neighbours
:30:03. > :30:08.are up to. We are not taking any responsibility. I think it's very
:30:08. > :30:12.easy to live in a bubble and to think that somebody else's problem
:30:12. > :30:17.is their problem. But a parent, particularly parents in the inner
:30:17. > :30:21.city, they are suffering. They are going through, they are going
:30:21. > :30:26.through so much. They are finding things very hard. My mum was on
:30:26. > :30:30.benefits and I can tell you, for her to try and elevate our social
:30:30. > :30:33.and economic situation, she had to work. Which meant that it left us,
:30:33. > :30:41.some of the time to fend for ourselves. And that is what happens
:30:41. > :30:43.in a lot of these inner city...: How do you get out of it? You are
:30:43. > :30:53.an award-winning singer-songwriter. It might have been a different
:30:53. > :30:55.
:30:55. > :31:00.story for you. What do you put it I think there are so many things
:31:00. > :31:06.that cause children to act in the way that we have seen. We need to
:31:06. > :31:10.stop seeing this as someone else's problem. As we have seen, these
:31:10. > :31:16.parents everyone is trying to blame, their children are affecting
:31:16. > :31:21.everyone, not just the best situation. That is what needs to
:31:21. > :31:26.stop. It is not someone else Poznan problem. We need to work together
:31:26. > :31:33.and be a community, get together and work on this problem and how we
:31:33. > :31:40.can change this. When you listen to this, is this essentially about it
:31:40. > :31:46.relationship of children and parents? Or do the bankers have
:31:46. > :31:52.something to answer for, the phone hackers? It is really interesting.
:31:52. > :31:58.The diversity has shown it is not a particular group of people. And as
:31:58. > :32:03.Jamelia Has been talking about, it is an issue in society. The IPPR
:32:03. > :32:06.has done research around parents and it shows support around
:32:06. > :32:11.universal child care to allow parents to work and know their
:32:11. > :32:15.children are learning, flexible working opportunities, to build
:32:15. > :32:19.those quality relationships between parents and children and that wider
:32:19. > :32:23.community. Those are the policies we need to think about to broaden
:32:23. > :32:30.out and tackle these challenges. Ray Lewis, parents always get the
:32:30. > :32:34.blame, whatever they are doing. think parents do get a hard time
:32:34. > :32:39.and in some sense that is understandable, because the home is
:32:39. > :32:44.where a child spends most of their time so we expect that socialising
:32:44. > :32:47.agents to be more effective. What is more important and one of the
:32:47. > :32:56.things Airport the Mayor of London for his we do not want to put the
:32:56. > :33:00.blame on people, it is important to make a difference -- one of the
:33:00. > :33:04.things I applaud. He has had a drive... What do you make of the
:33:04. > :33:09.woman who wants to be tougher on the film and wants to have more
:33:09. > :33:14.discipline but says the government would not let her? If we are going
:33:14. > :33:18.to look in the political sense, I am pleased that Ed Miliband took
:33:18. > :33:23.some share of responsibility, because so much of Labour policy
:33:23. > :33:27.has disabled and December Howard families. So we have a culture
:33:27. > :33:32.where people are afraid to discipline children -- and this
:33:32. > :33:37.empowered families. Some of what we have seen on the streets in recent
:33:37. > :33:41.times of the manifestation of failed policies of liberalism.
:33:41. > :33:48.state that became too big and welfare that became too easily
:33:48. > :33:52.obtainable? I am not sure if that is the analysis, other things are
:33:52. > :33:57.happening. If you think about the long-term youth unemployed, that is
:33:57. > :34:02.another factor. It does not explain or condoned the riots but is a
:34:02. > :34:06.reasoned and something we have to think about. It has been rising and
:34:06. > :34:14.one in four young people have been out of work for 12 months, said
:34:14. > :34:18.that has an effect on people's job prospects. -- so that has. Jamelia,
:34:18. > :34:23.give me the free things that would make things different? Would you
:34:23. > :34:30.talk about domestic abuse, and gang violence, crime? We need to start
:34:30. > :34:35.with the children, particularly those who do not have male and
:34:35. > :34:39.female role models. It is important for every child to get that and we
:34:39. > :34:42.need a social strategy to provide that for every child. Is the
:34:42. > :34:48.government ready to say you should get more if you are a married
:34:48. > :34:53.couple? Marriage does not have anything to do with it. I grew up
:34:53. > :34:57.without a male role model and in my adult life, I have paid for it. Now
:34:57. > :35:01.I have two daughters and I am a single mother and it makes a
:35:01. > :35:06.difference to me to make sure I have positive male role models
:35:06. > :35:11.around my children as well as female. My mother was female
:35:11. > :35:16.orientated, and it caused me issues when I was older. I genuinely
:35:16. > :35:20.believe it has helped my own children. Jamelia Is talking about
:35:21. > :35:25.not realising that until she was growing up, this is the problem for
:35:25. > :35:32.politicians that you make policy decisions that turn out to have
:35:32. > :35:35.completely failed degeneration 15 years later? That is the case and
:35:35. > :35:41.these are all our children and we will pay or profit from what they
:35:41. > :35:46.have become. In each of the areas where there has been crime and
:35:46. > :35:50.rioting, we have seen the Mayor of London running a listening campaign
:35:50. > :35:55.through community conversations trying to hear and understand what
:35:55. > :36:00.is going on in people's lives. And a role-model scheme he is rolling
:36:00. > :36:06.out in London will make a difference. Thank you very much,
:36:06. > :36:12.and there are of a mayoral candidate, we should say! -- the
:36:12. > :36:15.O'Hair are other mayoral candidates. -- there are. So when there's a 12-
:36:15. > :36:17.year-old boy going through the courts for looting a bottle of wine,
:36:17. > :36:21.when there's a 14-year-old girl similarly accused of nicking a pair
:36:21. > :36:24.of designer jeans, what are we supposed to make of what this says
:36:24. > :36:27.about our society? What kind of kids are we raising in this
:36:27. > :36:32.country? Stephen Smith looks at the profile of some of those involved.
:36:32. > :36:36.These are some of the criminals who had pleaded guilty in the past two
:36:36. > :36:40.days two charges arising from disturbances in London and Greater
:36:40. > :36:50.Manchester. They have been appearing in round the clock
:36:50. > :36:51.
:36:51. > :36:56.hearings that have been processing scores of defendants. This 22-year-
:36:56. > :37:02.old appeared at one of the 24 hour sessions, before Westminster
:37:02. > :37:09.magistrates. He was bailed over charges of violence and racial
:37:09. > :37:13.harassment. As the court sat beyond regular hours, the 16-year-old
:37:13. > :37:18.appeared beyond -- appeared before a juvenile court accused of theft
:37:18. > :37:24.in Croydon. His father, who cannot be identified for legal reasons,
:37:24. > :37:31.spoke about his son's behaviour. What they are all -- what they are
:37:31. > :37:38.alleging he has done, I am annoyed of what he has done. I cannot
:37:38. > :37:44.believe... Are you ashamed? I am not ashamed, I cannot believe he
:37:44. > :37:49.has done it. To be ashamed is any taking the blame but I cannot tie
:37:49. > :37:54.him to a bed, I am not allowed to, I cannot hit him, I am not allowed
:37:54. > :37:59.to, I cannot look him in his room, I am not allowed to. At the things
:37:59. > :38:04.that parents used to be able to do, they cannot do now -- all the
:38:04. > :38:08.things. This court has been operating round the clock since the
:38:08. > :38:13.disturbances. Those expecting to see places like this for of the
:38:13. > :38:22.underclass, whoever they are, have been in for a shock. Those facing
:38:22. > :38:26.charges include middle-class people, professionals, undergraduates, the
:38:26. > :38:31.well-to-do. At various hearings in London and the South of England, a
:38:31. > :38:35.law student has been accused of violent disorder, the daughter of a
:38:35. > :38:39.successful businessman has appeared on counts of burglary, and a social
:38:39. > :38:44.worker has pleaded guilty to stealing a television set after
:38:44. > :38:51.turning herself into police. When people say comic yes, some got
:38:51. > :38:57.caught up in the event, it is true. -- when people say, yes.
:38:57. > :39:01.Circumstances and opportunity are a great motivator. They stood around
:39:01. > :39:05.and watch it and may have smiled to think the police could not do
:39:05. > :39:11.anything. But many others were thinking, this is trouble, let me
:39:11. > :39:15.get out of here. There is not an entirely innocent explanation if
:39:15. > :39:25.you were not next to a riot for more than two or three minutes and
:39:25. > :39:30.just stayed there. As police live up to their claims to arrest
:39:30. > :39:35.suspects and bring them before the courts in short order, details have
:39:35. > :39:40.emerged from one court about the people in the dock. Of 56 people
:39:40. > :39:44.appearing yesterday at Camberwell, south-east London, a third were
:39:44. > :39:48.teenagers, the biggest group in their early twenties. A 5th of
:39:48. > :39:53.charges were for violent offences, but more than three-quarters were
:39:53. > :39:58.for burglary. 70% of offences were committed outside the borough where
:39:58. > :40:05.the accused lived, perhaps indicating gang members travelling
:40:05. > :40:10.away from their patch to root. In Manchester, a boy of 12 he ran away
:40:10. > :40:14.from the supermarket with a bottle of wine went to court with his
:40:14. > :40:22.mother to red-necked burglary and was given a nine-month referral
:40:22. > :40:27.order. -- to admit burglary. Later, both of them swore at reporters. A
:40:27. > :40:31.girl of 11, here, it received a similar centres in Nottingham after
:40:31. > :40:37.admitting she was part of a gang that threw stones at shops, she
:40:37. > :40:41.said she did not think she would be caught. Order suspects found the
:40:41. > :40:46.rhetoric was tough in the city's court. A judge told one man
:40:46. > :40:56.convicted of obstructing police. Let me give you a piece of worldly
:40:56. > :41:00.
:41:00. > :41:03.Words of advice were not confined to the bench, as a BBC team found
:41:03. > :41:08.in Manchester when they approached the family of a man who has
:41:08. > :41:13.admitted burglary. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone,
:41:14. > :41:17.so... So have the political -- So have the political battlelines been
:41:17. > :41:20.drawn this week? And who appears to be coming out on top? Joining me
:41:20. > :41:22.now are Miranda Green, a journalist and former press secretary to Paddy
:41:23. > :41:25.Ashdown, Nick Watt, Chief Political Correspondent at The Guardian, and
:41:25. > :41:30.George Pascoe-Watson, former Political Editor of The Sun and now
:41:30. > :41:33.a partner at Portland Group Communications.
:41:33. > :41:41.Is this the day Cameron stopped being a Liberal Tory and became a
:41:41. > :41:46.proper Blue Tory? There is no doubt whatsoever David
:41:46. > :41:51.Cameron has had a good day and has come back from his holidays and got
:41:51. > :41:55.a grip on the situation. He has been prime-ministerial. It would be
:41:55. > :41:59.hard for anybody not to be under these conditions. And the hard
:41:59. > :42:03.right of the Conservative Party which has been looking more for
:42:03. > :42:08.some sort of red meat, particularly when it comes to law and order,
:42:08. > :42:11.will be pleased and satisfied by the substance which David Cameron
:42:11. > :42:17.came out with today in terms of how he will deal with policing and law
:42:18. > :42:21.and order. And will this last? difficulty is he is in a coalition
:42:21. > :42:26.and there will be pressure from the Liberal Democrats and from the
:42:26. > :42:31.Labour Party he will go on police cuts for a long time. It has the
:42:31. > :42:35.Prime Minister said, at least cuts is not the reason this happened.
:42:35. > :42:38.And clearly difficult, uncomfortable territory for the
:42:38. > :42:44.Liberal Democrats. And we have seen from what Simon Hughes said about
:42:44. > :42:48.the division. Indeed, I agree very much with George and I think David
:42:48. > :42:53.Cameron did not have any option than to go in hard when he returned.
:42:53. > :42:57.As we know from past experiences, one thing the public will not
:42:57. > :43:04.forgive is a government not in control, presiding over a period of
:43:04. > :43:09.public disorder. So it is important to assert control as the government.
:43:09. > :43:14.But the unity shown in Parliament today over condemning what has been
:43:14. > :43:18.Hammett -- happening as criminality, not describing it to social factors
:43:18. > :43:22.like Harriet Harman will hold for a while, but there is a big
:43:22. > :43:27.conversation to be had about society's values and the direction
:43:27. > :43:32.of the country in the next few years as austerity bites, and these
:43:32. > :43:37.issues will disrupt the government. When Ed Miliband was basically
:43:37. > :43:41.saying, yes, it New Labour got things wrong, Peter Mandelson's
:43:41. > :43:47.quote about the filthy rich was wrong, people look back on those
:43:47. > :43:51.New Labour ways of dealing with social disorder, they are not in a
:43:51. > :43:56.great position to fight back on this. Ed Miliband would say this
:43:56. > :44:00.time last year he was busy burying New Labour so got himself into the
:44:00. > :44:04.right place. But what is interesting from what she saw with
:44:04. > :44:08.that interview with Ed Miliband and him in the House of Commons is he
:44:08. > :44:13.is not going down the Harriet Harman route which he did the other
:44:13. > :44:19.day of blaming the spending cuts. He is fashioning an argument to say
:44:19. > :44:23.that we, everyone, is responsible for the lack of responsibility. And
:44:23. > :44:27.Ed Miliband has been making this argument for some time and at two
:44:27. > :44:31.levels, he says there is a lack of responsibility at the top of
:44:31. > :44:36.society. So he was in a good position when the phone hacking row
:44:36. > :44:41.came along. And in June, he said there was a lack of responsibility
:44:41. > :44:45.at the bottom of society. It is interesting that two leaders are
:44:45. > :44:50.both using what has happened as a springboard into what the rest of
:44:50. > :44:54.the message for the next few months will be. Ed Miliband clearly is
:44:54. > :45:00.trying to give the impression he cares about the future generations,
:45:00. > :45:06.that is his big sell. David Cameron is saying to his party, I am a
:45:06. > :45:10.right wing man when it comes to law and order and not a civil
:45:10. > :45:15.libertarian, this is my opportunity. David Cameron is now back to the
:45:15. > :45:19.territory from before the election of a broken society, the Liberal
:45:19. > :45:22.Democrats not happy. Before the election, he said it was bottom up
:45:22. > :45:28.and people should take responsibility, today he was
:45:28. > :45:34.talking about state action. State action on CCTV, the same
:45:34. > :45:38.philosophy... Is he going to stop talking about the big society?
:45:38. > :45:48.I do not think he can. There will be solutions within his big society
:45:48. > :45:53.The language used today is significant. David Cameron talking
:45:53. > :45:56.about our "sick" sotd. You would never get a Liberal Democrats use -
:45:56. > :46:06.- society. You would never get a Liberal Democrats using that phrase.
:46:06. > :46:07.
:46:07. > :46:12.You would not have thought it was fine for one to say oh, CCTV foot -
:46:12. > :46:17.- footage. As someone who lives in a deprived area in the country, not
:46:17. > :46:22.just London, how you protect the poor from gangs, this is about
:46:22. > :46:25.protecting the poorest. It sound like a few of the people we've had
:46:25. > :46:30.on this evening detect a slight wobble on the whole police cuts
:46:30. > :46:33.number. Do you think it will change now? I don't think so. I don't
:46:33. > :46:38.think there's any indication within the Government they will re-think
:46:38. > :46:43.this at all. This is a numbers game. We are in this position financially.
:46:43. > :46:46.They can't go back on it. It seems clear to me that the number of
:46:46. > :46:52.police around over the weekend t problem was they weren't out on the
:46:52. > :46:55.street. It wasn't that we had too few. We had a classic Simon Hughes
:46:55. > :46:59.moment today. He is trying to have it both ways. Saying maybe we are
:46:59. > :47:04.not sure about the police kurts. What happened in the Cabinet? Nick
:47:04. > :47:09.Clegg stood up, pointed to the intervention, I completely support
:47:09. > :47:16.these cuts. Thank you for coming in. Let's whisk you through the front
:47:16. > :47:21.pages. There you go; a concealed youth leaving Manchester
:47:21. > :47:31.Magistrates Court. Those comments might spring to mind about making
:47:31. > :47:39.
:47:39. > :47:43.The FT leads on the economic stuff. This is what we are talking about.
:47:43. > :47:48.That sense that that will not alter Government policy.
:47:48. > :47:58.That's all from Newsnight tonight. I will be here again tomorrow. From
:47:58. > :48:07.
:48:07. > :48:10.Hello. A grey, damp, drizzly start tomorrow. Some places will brighten
:48:10. > :48:13.up. In the west the cloud will thicken. Further outbreaks of rain
:48:13. > :48:17.for Northern Ireland and western Scot lands. That rain will drift
:48:17. > :48:21.into north-west England. To the east of the Pennines I'm optimistic
:48:21. > :48:30.things will brighten up and we could see sunshine across the East
:48:31. > :48:35.Midlands and south-east. A misty humid day across south-west
:48:35. > :48:40.England. It will be grey most of the day. Outbreaks of rain for
:48:40. > :48:43.Devon and Cornwall. It shouldn't be too heavy in Wales, but further
:48:43. > :48:48.north heavy rain early on in Northern Ireland. The afternoon may
:48:48. > :48:52.see things turning drier, but only for a time. It will turn wet for
:48:52. > :48:55.western Scotland. The far north- east should hang on to brightness.
:48:56. > :49:00.That rain will move across all of Scotland during Friday evening,
:49:00. > :49:08.leaving behind it Saturday, well some brighter interludes. But
:49:08. > :49:10.there'll be a fair few showers across northern Britain on Saturday.
:49:11. > :49:14.It should turn drier during the afternoon on Saturday. As I said,