:00:09. > :00:12."Slow motion moral collapse". Was it the cause of the riots as the
:00:12. > :00:16.Prime Minister claimed today? Do either of these men have a solution
:00:17. > :00:19.to what caused so much civil unrest last week? Is it David Cameron's
:00:19. > :00:23.way, all about instilling personal responsibility, or Miliband's plan
:00:23. > :00:27.for more jobs and opportunities? I'm joined by David Willetts,
:00:27. > :00:33.Hilary Benn and the Bishop of Kingston. David Cameron declares
:00:33. > :00:41.war on gangs - do these Hackney teenagers think he can win it?
:00:41. > :00:45.REPORTER: If he says war, what will the effect be? Big war. Bigger war
:00:45. > :00:48.than already. Does the American way offer a solution to gang violence?
:00:48. > :00:52.I'll be asking a former New York Police Commissioner. And are the so
:00:52. > :00:58.called "feral rich" in their own way as much to blame for our moral
:00:58. > :01:00.malaise as the feral poor? And also tonight, the economic malaise. On
:01:00. > :01:10.the eve of the Merkel-Sarkozy Summit, how do Germans feel about
:01:10. > :01:14.
:01:14. > :01:17.Good evening. The arrests continue in London and in other English
:01:17. > :01:20.cities, the courts are still jammed, hundreds are on remand and the
:01:20. > :01:23.convicted are beginning their sentences. Now the politicians are
:01:23. > :01:28.trying to work out all the things that have gone wrong, but their
:01:28. > :01:31.solutions are different. For David Cameron, it is about an absence of
:01:31. > :01:34.morality - fatherless households, poor parenting. He said that
:01:34. > :01:38.politicians' failure to moralise had been the cause of social
:01:38. > :01:40.breakdown. In a concurrent speech, Ed Miliband emphasised the role of
:01:40. > :01:50.workless households, the lack of facilities for teenagers and a
:01:50. > :02:05.
:02:05. > :02:15.dearth of opportunities. David A slow motion moral collapse - a
:02:15. > :02:16.
:02:16. > :02:21.nation whose values are in crisis. The Prime Minister's message was
:02:21. > :02:29.what we saw last week was not a moment of madness but decades in
:02:29. > :02:36.the making. At a speech in his Oxfordshire constituency, Mr
:02:36. > :02:40.Cameron promised the Government would look at every single one of
:02:40. > :02:47.its social policies. This must be a wake-up call for our country.
:02:47. > :02:50.Social problems have exploded in our face. The causes were all too
:02:50. > :02:55.clear. Irresponsibility, selfishness, behaving as if your
:02:55. > :03:01.choices have no consequences, children without fathers, schools
:03:01. > :03:03.without discipline, reward without effort. Crime without punishment,
:03:03. > :03:12.rights without responsibilities, communities without control. Some
:03:12. > :03:17.of the worst aspects of human nature, sometimes incentivised by a
:03:17. > :03:21.state and its agencies that have become demoralised. So do we have
:03:21. > :03:25.the determination to confront all this and turn it round? The Prime
:03:25. > :03:31.Minister declared an all-out war on gangs and gang culture. And there
:03:31. > :03:35.will be plans to improve parenting including targeting 120,000 of the
:03:35. > :03:39.most troubled families in the country who will have their lives
:03:39. > :03:46.turned around or improved by the next general election. There will
:03:46. > :03:50.be a review of human rights and health and safety legislation. And
:03:50. > :03:54.how far can those convicted of crimes be stripped of their
:03:54. > :03:59.benefits? Even those on the right who welcomed the message worry
:03:59. > :04:02.about how practical this get tough agenda is. Even though a lot of
:04:02. > :04:06.people support it, I would be surprised if people lose their
:04:06. > :04:09.council houses or benefits because they have been involved in
:04:09. > :04:14.criminality. There is an agenda around the idea of conditionality
:04:14. > :04:24.which could make some progress, the idea that there should be greater
:04:24. > :04:26.
:04:26. > :04:30.conditions on receiving benefits. I think those ideas are practical.
:04:30. > :04:37.The ideas of taking away people's benefits will probably not happen.
:04:37. > :04:42.Then there is the David Cameron's coalition partners. This lady says
:04:42. > :04:45.her colleagues would fight such benefits changes hard. If we are
:04:45. > :04:48.going to rehabilitate people and make them part of society, they
:04:48. > :04:51.need to have enough money to be able to have a roof over their head
:04:52. > :04:55.to be able to put food on the table and to be able to get themselves in
:04:55. > :04:58.a position where they can find work. If we cut people's benefits, they
:04:59. > :05:03.are less likely to be able to do that and also they are more likely
:05:03. > :05:09.to turn to crime to get enough money to live on. So we could end
:05:09. > :05:12.up making the situation worse. Labour Leader was dismissive of the
:05:12. > :05:16.Government's plans. Ed Miliband thinks more work is needed to
:05:16. > :05:21.identify the causes of the disturbances. He wants the
:05:21. > :05:26.Government to call a full-blown inquiry into what happened. Instant
:05:26. > :05:34.and simple judgments in response to these events bring bad solutions.
:05:34. > :05:40.Of course, the public says we want quick action. A new policy a day,
:05:40. > :05:45.knee-jerk gimmicks, they won't solve the problem. Let's be honest
:05:45. > :05:49.about the politicians in this - appointed new advisor, that won't
:05:49. > :05:55.meet the public's demand for real and lasting solutions.
:05:55. > :05:57.Government is not planning to have the full statutory inquiry that
:05:57. > :06:02.Labour wants. But tomorrow the Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg
:06:02. > :06:07.will announce what's being described as a grassroots
:06:07. > :06:10.engagement exercise hearing from victims and communities about what
:06:10. > :06:15.went wrong. The Government is already convinced that the police
:06:15. > :06:19.need urgent reform. The public spat with senior officers continued over
:06:20. > :06:24.the weekend. Plans to seek advice from a senior American policeman
:06:25. > :06:34.have not gone down well. Sir Hugh Orde, President of ACPO, speaking
:06:35. > :06:43.
:06:43. > :06:46.A week ago tonight, this was the scene at Clapham Junction. The
:06:46. > :06:51.police did nothing to stop the looting for two hours. Tomorrow,
:06:51. > :06:55.the Home Secretary will make a speech promising to press ahead
:06:55. > :06:58.with police reform. Not that long ago a Conservative
:06:58. > :07:02.Prime Minister would rather be caught looting Debenhams than
:07:02. > :07:06.having a knock-down row with the police about who knows best about
:07:06. > :07:09.protecting the public. What's changed? Well, the first thing
:07:09. > :07:13.that's changed is Ministers don't think they have got a choice at the
:07:13. > :07:18.moment. If they back down now, it will not only they fear be the end
:07:18. > :07:21.of their police reform agenda, it could put a big hole in their plans
:07:21. > :07:26.to tackle the budget deficit. There's another reason. They think
:07:26. > :07:31.the mood of voters has profoundly changed. What happened here at
:07:31. > :07:35.Clapham Junction they think adds to a mood that the police aren't
:07:35. > :07:38.getting it done any more. The Prime Minister knows that other
:07:38. > :07:42.politicians before him have promised to re-build the nation's
:07:42. > :07:47.morals. He knows too that the public tell pollsters they yearn
:07:47. > :07:51.for such action. The big difficulty is not identifying the many
:07:52. > :07:54.problems, it is finding policies that will sort them out.
:07:54. > :07:57.I'm joined by the Higher Education Minister, David Willetts, the
:07:57. > :08:04.Shadow Leader of the House, Hilary Benn, and the Bishop of Kingston,
:08:04. > :08:11.Dr Richard Cheetham. Slow motion moral collapse - what is moral
:08:11. > :08:15.collapse? Well, we have seen on our TVs what that is. We should be
:08:15. > :08:20.clear about the moral difference between the people that we have
:08:20. > :08:24.just seen raiding shops, threatening individuals, and then
:08:24. > :08:28.the following day in that same part of Clapham the people who gathered
:08:28. > :08:31.buying their new brooms to clean up. That is the difference between
:08:31. > :08:39.people doing the wrong thing and the right thing. Although we have
:08:39. > :08:48.our own imperfections, all of us should begin by recognising that is
:08:48. > :08:52.an important difference in the way people behave. David Cameron wants
:08:52. > :08:57.deeper and accelerated programme on parenting. That was a key message
:08:57. > :09:04.that he had today along with the idea that fatherless households
:09:04. > :09:10.were to be discouraged. We spoke to a pressure group on cuts and the
:09:10. > :09:15.list of cuts to parenting groups is quite extensive. Everything from
:09:15. > :09:22.2,000 to 40,000, you will have to turn around a lot of money to help
:09:22. > :09:25.parents? Well, if you look at the 120,000 families that you reported
:09:25. > :09:31.in your clip, the families that have the greatest problems, there
:09:31. > :09:36.is an enormous amount of money going into those at the moment. The
:09:36. > :09:42.living rooms of some of those families is like Victoria Station.
:09:42. > :09:48.It's not treating the whole person. This is one example of a wider
:09:48. > :09:53.truth that you can do better. I suspect that one of the very
:09:53. > :09:59.widespread factors behind those people that we saw rioting is I
:09:59. > :10:05.suspect a lot of them were in families where there has not been
:10:05. > :10:09.an actively involved father. Have these riots given David Cameron the
:10:09. > :10:16.moral authority to say things, a licence to say things he wouldn't
:10:16. > :10:22.say otherwise? You see, the point is that David right from the
:10:22. > :10:25.beginning - I remember his first speech - this theme of what's gone
:10:25. > :10:29.wrong with our society is something that he personally cares deeply
:10:29. > :10:34.about. What has happened... Then he moved on to the NHS... What's
:10:35. > :10:39.happened in the past week, it's shown the validity of so much of
:10:39. > :10:45.what he was saying then. There is why there is a new impetus behind
:10:45. > :10:50.the welfare reforms, the school reforms. It has a new energy
:10:50. > :10:54.because it is so needed. politicians - are they right -
:10:54. > :11:00.should Ed Miliband be setting the moral agenda? I don't think it is
:11:00. > :11:04.for us to moralise. It is, isn't it? We have to say what we think is
:11:04. > :11:09.right and what is wrong. We have to understand the causes of this. I'm
:11:09. > :11:16.sorry, David Cameron having made that speech in 2006, he has moved
:11:16. > :11:25.away from it. What Ed Miliband was saying today is we have seen a lot
:11:25. > :11:29.of gimmicks, or evicting people from their homes. I don't think
:11:29. > :11:32.those are the answers to the problems. You saw the opposition
:11:32. > :11:35.from the Liberal Democrats the possibility of withdrawal of
:11:35. > :11:40.benefits. What do you make of that? This is one of the many ideas that
:11:40. > :11:44.we will have to look at. You are considering it? We will look at it
:11:44. > :11:47.across the coalition. I have to say, hearing a Minister in the Tony
:11:47. > :11:53.Blair Government denouncing gimmicks is a bit rich. The fact is,
:11:53. > :11:58.I remember Frank Field proposing measures on tightening the links
:11:58. > :12:00.between access to housing benefit and housing and anti-social
:12:00. > :12:08.behaviour. Tony Blair talked about it. They didn't do anything about
:12:08. > :12:12.it. Bishop, when you hear this - and the gimmicks and moralising,
:12:12. > :12:16.are politicians the one from whom we should take our moral lessons?
:12:16. > :12:20.It involves far more than the politicians. The politicians ought
:12:20. > :12:24.to be involved in something to do with the moral framework of our
:12:24. > :12:30.country. They are key players in the forming of laws and that is
:12:30. > :12:36.closely linked to morality. Moralising then, what David Cameron
:12:36. > :12:41.is saying per se, fatherless households are bad per se, marriage
:12:41. > :12:45.is better than non-marriage? course, it is right that certain
:12:45. > :12:49.things need to be condemned as being utterly wrong and a clear
:12:49. > :12:53.distinction between right and wrong. In the area that I cover - and
:12:53. > :12:57.Clapham is part of my area - I was on the streets on Tuesday morning,
:12:57. > :13:01.I have spoken to some of those affected, so I know the damage that
:13:01. > :13:05.has been done to people's lives. we need - we don't live in the same
:13:05. > :13:10.society that people lived in when the Ten Commandments were brought
:13:10. > :13:14.about. Do we need a new moral contract that everybody can
:13:14. > :13:21.understand? We need clear moral frameworks. We need to take a close
:13:21. > :13:25.look I think about how moral character is formed in people. The
:13:25. > :13:30.chief Rabbi spoke about the importance of the inner policeman.
:13:30. > :13:34.We can't, as I think bril Bratton said, we can't arrest our way --
:13:34. > :13:41.Bill Bratton said, we can't arrest our way out of this programme. That
:13:41. > :13:47.is true. Can you clarify something that David Cameron said about we
:13:47. > :13:54.must look to see if health and safety legislation and the Human
:13:54. > :13:58.Rights Act is stimeying our efforts in that direction? In the very
:13:58. > :14:02.early hours of this, there was an issue about whether or not it was
:14:03. > :14:07.OK to put on TV the images of people who were involved in rioting
:14:07. > :14:11.so some people were suggesting even this might not be possible. You
:14:11. > :14:15.endlessly hear these type of arguments which are based on a
:14:15. > :14:19.misunderstanding of the law and we will be tackling this. Can I go
:14:19. > :14:24.back to what the bishop said? I think what's happened for us as
:14:24. > :14:29.politicians is because we are all imperfect ourselves, because we all
:14:29. > :14:33.know... You put this very... that reason, people have become
:14:33. > :14:38.aware of trying to make any moral judgment at all. Unless you are
:14:38. > :14:41.Mother Teresa, you are not allowed to talk about morality. You did
:14:41. > :14:48.before "back to basics"? Of course, that is the issue. We should be
:14:48. > :14:52.allowed - morality is too important to be left to people... Hilary
:14:53. > :14:59.Benn? I was going to say, on CCTV images, there is no problem, we
:14:59. > :15:02.have seen them on the television, they are proving effective. What we
:15:02. > :15:05.really need is to listen to the people who have been on the
:15:05. > :15:10.receiving end of this violence, we need to listen to those, some of
:15:10. > :15:14.those who have been causing the problems to understand why. Isn't
:15:14. > :15:18.it the bigger... We have to have a proper inquiry. Tomorrow, there
:15:18. > :15:21.will be some sort of listening exercise. If that is the first
:15:21. > :15:28.stage, I welcome it. Everybody knows there is going to have to be
:15:28. > :15:32.a full inquiry. Do you really want an inquiry that takes three years?
:15:32. > :15:40.No. It is not just necessarily drilled down into the areas where
:15:40. > :15:44.there has been unrest, there is a moral malaise. Having a proper
:15:44. > :15:49.inquiry into this, surely it is listening quickly to what people
:15:49. > :15:53.are saying on the ground? I want an inquiry to be done as quickly as
:15:54. > :15:59.possible. Bishop, is this going to be fixed for the next general
:15:59. > :16:04.election? I do think we need a proper deep look at it. I was
:16:04. > :16:09.immensely grateful for the swift response to putting, sorting some
:16:09. > :16:14.of these riots out. I think we need to take a rather more measured look
:16:14. > :16:19.at the causes of these because they are complex. To talk about causes
:16:19. > :16:26.does not excuse some of these actions. I agree with what David
:16:27. > :16:31.was saying, we need far more people engaged in moral discussion and
:16:31. > :16:37.where the roots of our morality comes from about our sense of what
:16:37. > :16:45.makes the good life and we have become a very inquisitive kind of
:16:45. > :16:48.culture which has quite a cancerous effect on the overall climate.
:16:48. > :16:58.we've been hearing, some of the blame for last week's riots has
:16:58. > :17:00.
:17:00. > :17:03.been laid at the door of a gang culture in English cities. Paul
:17:03. > :17:07.Mason's been to Hackney where shops were burnt out and looters rampaged
:17:07. > :17:17.on the streets to find out what they make of the Prime Minister's
:17:17. > :17:18.
:17:18. > :17:25.By tea time there was almost a wartime feel about the Pembury
:17:25. > :17:28.estate, Hackney. The staff of M&S provided the cakes. Community
:17:28. > :17:32.leaders came and the youth themselves. The only people
:17:32. > :17:37.missing? The hardened gang members who are supposed to have caused it
:17:38. > :17:42.all. They were front of mind for David Cameron. It is time for
:17:42. > :17:48.something else too. A concerted all-out war on gangs and gang
:17:48. > :17:55.culture. And here is how the war on gangs went down among the youth of
:17:55. > :18:03.Hackney. What - can you explain what kind of war you mean? He means
:18:03. > :18:08.intervening with police against drugs, against gun violence? We are
:18:08. > :18:13.getting stopped on the streets for that. If we don't have anything, we
:18:13. > :18:20.get put inside cells. If he says war on gangs, what will the effect
:18:20. > :18:24.be? War. A big war. Bigger war than already. You think that will
:18:24. > :18:29.happen? Yeah. If it is not war on gangs, how would you solve the
:18:29. > :18:32.problem of violence in a place like this? Stop the stop and search
:18:32. > :18:39.first of all. We don't like stop and search. Get rid of the police.
:18:39. > :18:45.Get them out of our communities. Calm. Peace. And the local vicar
:18:45. > :18:49.was no more enthusiastic. To use words like "war against gangs" is
:18:49. > :18:53.very dangerous and it is likely to cause greater division. Why? A lot
:18:53. > :18:59.of people outside Hackney think they have had enough with areas
:18:59. > :19:06.that are dominated by gangs. Surely we should crackdown on them?
:19:06. > :19:12.don't think it is that similar pl. There are mitigating circumstances
:19:12. > :19:17.as to why people -- it is that simple. There are mitigating
:19:17. > :19:25.circumstances as to why people join gangs. The lives of people here are
:19:25. > :19:29.plagued by gangs. When it comes to a war on gangs, this part of London
:19:29. > :19:33.is one of the most studied areas in Western Europe and what the studies
:19:33. > :19:37.tell us is that the world of youth on the streets and the serious guys
:19:37. > :19:40.with serious firearms and big cars and then the criminal families
:19:40. > :19:46.running drugs into the country, these are three very different
:19:46. > :19:50.worlds. So where do you start the war? If you are running a business
:19:50. > :19:55.selling crack cocaine or heroin, on the street or in your estate, the
:19:55. > :20:01.last thing you want is a load of coppers running in, none of your
:20:01. > :20:04.customers will show up. Who was it? I think it was the younger kids,
:20:04. > :20:09.kids who got carried away with the moment who wanted to prove to their
:20:09. > :20:14.mates that they were up for it and bold and things like that. Hackney,
:20:14. > :20:23.which was torn by rioting last week, is home to numerous warring street
:20:23. > :20:28.gangs, the Pembury boys, the 925, the London Fields Boys and some
:20:28. > :20:33.others. The problem for the police is what does war with them mean?
:20:33. > :20:39.Five days before the riots, 300 police swooped on the Pembury
:20:39. > :20:43.estate raiding 32 addresses, arresting 23 people, this after the
:20:43. > :20:49.longest covert policing operation in the Met's history. Pembury still
:20:49. > :20:53.became the centre of rioting. This man, a long time community activist,
:20:53. > :20:57.alleges the police had made an arrangement with one of the rival
:20:57. > :21:03.gangs. You think the police did a deal with the London Fields Gang?
:21:03. > :21:09.They didn't do a deal. I'm saying what they did was, they told them,
:21:09. > :21:13.they said you can do what you like, OK, as long as you do not touch a
:21:14. > :21:17.police officer. This is before the riot? Not just before. This was
:21:17. > :21:22.months ago because the police officer had a gun pointed at him
:21:22. > :21:28.and if you can go to these young kids, yeah, and say that, you can
:21:28. > :21:34.say, "You all need to put down your guns, or we will come down heavy on
:21:34. > :21:38.you." Isn't that simple policing? Which is what some police forces
:21:38. > :21:41.have been doing. In Manchester police targeted businesses fronting
:21:41. > :21:45.gang operations and gave the gang members a choice - get out or we
:21:45. > :21:50.make your lives a misery. It is called the ceasefire strategy.
:21:50. > :21:55.you don't want these people to be in gangs, you have to say where do
:21:55. > :22:02.I want them to be? If the answer is I want them to be in education,
:22:02. > :22:07.training and work, I think there are all sorts of implications for
:22:07. > :22:11.your economic policies which are obvious. In Hackney, those who will
:22:12. > :22:17.have to fight the new war on gangs are veterans of it. All they need
:22:17. > :22:20.to know is what the new strategy can be that they have not tried
:22:20. > :22:23.before. Paul Mason there. Now the Prime Minister has appointed Bill
:22:23. > :22:26.Bratton, former Police Chief in New York and Los Angeles, who has
:22:26. > :22:28.extensive experience of dealing with gangs as an advisor. It's not
:22:28. > :22:31.an appointment that's been universally welcomed by police here
:22:31. > :22:35.in the UK who doubt that the American model can work this side
:22:35. > :22:38.of the Atlantic. I'm joined now from Washington by Howard Safir who
:22:38. > :22:42.worked closely with Bill Bratton as Police Commissioner in New York and
:22:42. > :22:52.here in the studio by Ian Hanson from the Greater Manchester Police
:22:52. > :22:52.
:22:52. > :22:58.Federation. What do you think Bill Bratton has to offer the police
:22:58. > :23:03.forces here? I know Bill well. I succeeded him after he left New
:23:03. > :23:07.York and Bill has had extensive experience in Boston, New York and
:23:07. > :23:11.Los Angeles in dealing with gangs and dealing with them very
:23:11. > :23:17.successfully. The issue is whether or not the American model
:23:17. > :23:20.translates to England and whether or not the British police and the
:23:20. > :23:27.British political system is ready for it. Bill certainly know what is
:23:27. > :23:31.to do and will be a valued advisor. Is that your view, Ian Hanson, that
:23:31. > :23:35.we need Bill Bratton to review policing here? It is not a question
:23:35. > :23:40.of bringing in people from abroad. We have some fantastic people in
:23:40. > :23:42.the UK in policing. The problem is the only people who seem to have
:23:42. > :23:45.been left out with the police officers of Great Britain. The
:23:45. > :23:49.Prime Minister and the Home Secretary are not engaging with the
:23:49. > :23:52.people who are doing this job on a daily basis. It is the police
:23:52. > :23:56.officers who stop the riots, not the politicians. And now what we
:23:56. > :23:59.need is an honest engagement and intelligent discussion with the
:23:59. > :24:05.police officers of the UK. Wouldn't you welcome good advice from
:24:05. > :24:08.wherever it comes? If it comes from Bill Bratton, fine? By all means.
:24:08. > :24:15.We will speak to anybody. The people the Home Secretary should be
:24:16. > :24:23.listening to are the practitioners. What were the tactics that Bill
:24:23. > :24:26.Bratton used? The kind of things that are - and it is not just Bill
:24:26. > :24:32.Bratton - one of the things I want to point out is, I have many
:24:32. > :24:35.friends in the Met. They are very competent. It is a question of
:24:35. > :24:38.philosophy. The philosophy in policing in the United States is
:24:38. > :24:42.the only people who should fear police are criminals, that the
:24:43. > :24:46.public should not but that is very important that criminals fear the
:24:46. > :24:50.police and that we do predictive policing that we gather
:24:50. > :24:55.intelligence, that we have contingency plans for any kind of
:24:55. > :24:59.event and one of the reasons that we have had almost no civil
:25:00. > :25:04.disturbances of the magnitude that you had in London is because we
:25:04. > :25:11.have contingency plans for every possible contingency. Isn't it the
:25:11. > :25:15.case that what Bill Bratton did was use a local crime tax to raise
:25:15. > :25:19.money for 5,000 more police officers? Well, resources are a
:25:19. > :25:24.very important issue. One of the things that - I was police
:25:24. > :25:27.commisioner in New York twice as long as Bill Bratton. One of the
:25:27. > :25:33.things that changed New York from being the crime capital of the
:25:33. > :25:37.world to the safest large city in America were resources. The
:25:37. > :25:41.previous speaker talked about talking to the operators. He is
:25:41. > :25:47.right. What you have to have the political will of the politicians
:25:47. > :25:50.to give police the resources in money and people to be able to
:25:50. > :25:56.execute... We understand that Theresa May is going to say
:25:56. > :26:01.tomorrow the police reforms will go ahead. Bill Bratton got 5,000 extra
:26:01. > :26:05.police officers. You have 20% cuts? Exactly. The Police Service of The
:26:05. > :26:10.UK is exhausted. The public are frightened and the police service
:26:10. > :26:16.don't know where we are going to go from here. We can't function with
:26:16. > :26:20.20,000 less police officers. In America, my colleague there says
:26:20. > :26:29.there that it raised establishments. We are expected to do more with
:26:29. > :26:34.less. Bill Bratton maybe will come in and say you can't go ahead with
:26:34. > :26:39.these cuts? Shouldn't he be engaging with us? We don't want an
:26:39. > :26:42.army of occupation in the UK. It is a different style of policing.
:26:43. > :26:48.Howard Safir seems to be saying is it is proactive rather than
:26:48. > :26:53.reactive. Do you accept that police here are too reactive? We would
:26:53. > :26:57.love to be able to react proactively. We haven't got enough
:26:57. > :27:03.resources. Or maybe you are not organising them... I will take you
:27:03. > :27:06.to any police station. I will show you how well organised these police
:27:06. > :27:10.officers are. Up-and-down the country last week there were not
:27:10. > :27:15.enough police officers in place and it is nothing more than that. We
:27:15. > :27:19.have spoke about "zero tolerance" policing. We would Loch to do that.
:27:19. > :27:23.We haven't got the re-- we would love to do that. We haven't got the
:27:23. > :27:28.resources. You said it was about a mixture of resources and style of
:27:28. > :27:32.policing. Do you think that Bill Bratton might say you don't have
:27:32. > :27:35.the resources? Well, resources are very important. Tactics are very
:27:35. > :27:40.important. Strategy is very important. If you don't have the
:27:40. > :27:44.people and the economic resources and the equipment, you will not
:27:44. > :27:49.succeed. One of the things we found in New York was, if you invest in
:27:49. > :27:54.law enforcement and professional policing, everything else follows.
:27:54. > :27:57.The economy of New York went from being in terrible deficit to being
:27:57. > :28:01.very well positioned when crime went down because people wanted to
:28:01. > :28:08.come to New York City, conventions, tourists, businesses. That is
:28:09. > :28:11.something I think is short-sighted on the part of politicians.
:28:11. > :28:14.Tomorrow morning, Nicolas Sarkozy and Angela Merkel will meet in
:28:14. > :28:17.Paris to discuss, yet again, the European debt crisis, but this
:28:17. > :28:19.summit is set against a deep divide about the remedy. The idea of
:28:20. > :28:22."mutualising the debt" by the creation of Eurobonds, which would
:28:22. > :28:24.radically reduce the repayment interest rates for countries such
:28:24. > :28:27.as Greece, Portugal and Spain, is favoured by Italy's Finance
:28:27. > :28:29.Minister and by the international financier, George Soros, but
:28:29. > :28:33.Germany is opposed, partly because the move could affect Germany's
:28:33. > :28:43.credit rating. In a moment, I'll be talking to the Nobel Laureate in
:28:43. > :28:45.
:28:45. > :28:51.Economics, Josef Stiglitz, but first here's Madeleine Morris. On
:28:51. > :28:56.the face of it, Germans have plenty to smile about. Their economy is
:28:56. > :29:01.growing at a healthy 3%. Unemployment has dropped over the
:29:01. > :29:11.last couple of years. Exports of their manufactured goods are high.
:29:11. > :29:15.
:29:15. > :29:23.Beneath these smiles, there is a worry. The party is over. We
:29:23. > :29:31.basically had a bubble. Now we are sitle sitting like we are in the
:29:31. > :29:36.aftermath of a party. 50 years ago this month the Berlin Wall went up.
:29:36. > :29:40.That great symbol of the Cold War division between east and west. Now,
:29:40. > :29:45.Germany finds itself again at the centre of a European crisis. This
:29:45. > :29:50.time, between north and south. The question for Angela Merkel and the
:29:50. > :29:55.German people is how much are they prepared to sacrifice to keep the
:29:55. > :30:00.European project on line? To help its troubled neighbours and keep
:30:00. > :30:05.the euro stable, in July Germany agreed to pay into an expanded
:30:05. > :30:09.European bail-out fund worth 440 billion euro. Angela Merkel still
:30:09. > :30:15.has to get that through the German Parliament. There are already fears
:30:15. > :30:22.that the fund won't be big enough to stop the rot. That worries
:30:22. > :30:31.Germans. Nobody can be happy. I suffer with the other people and we
:30:31. > :30:39.have fears for the future. I'm no banker. I couldn't say. You are a
:30:39. > :30:44.taxpayer? Yeah. We pay a lot of tax right now. There should be a limit
:30:44. > :30:49.to pay all this money to other countries. And then there's the
:30:49. > :30:56.question of eurobonds, debt issued by the whole eurozone instead of
:30:56. > :31:00.individual member states. Many economic high-flyers including the
:31:00. > :31:05.financer George Soros say eurobonds are necessary to save the eurozone.
:31:05. > :31:09.France and Germany have said they won't be on the agenda on Tuesday.
:31:09. > :31:13.In a Newsnight interview recorded last week, Germany's Foreign
:31:13. > :31:18.Minister explained the thinking. There are different ways of
:31:18. > :31:25.solidarity in the European Union and in the eurozone. This does not
:31:25. > :31:29.mean the necessity of eurobonds. We don't want to have a situation
:31:29. > :31:34.where the national Parliaments do not feel themselves responsibility
:31:34. > :31:40.for the budgets and for their fiscal discipline. This is what is
:31:40. > :31:46.necessary. What we are facing now is not the crisis of the euro, it
:31:46. > :31:51.is a crisis because of the debts. Angela Merkel has been accused of
:31:52. > :31:56.dithering over the crisis, neither promoting a closer fiscal union,
:31:56. > :32:00.nor cutting southern Europe loose. With polls turning against her,
:32:00. > :32:03.some commentators believe that can't go on. I would be much more
:32:03. > :32:09.in favour for the German side. We are facing a very honest discussion
:32:09. > :32:17.and we say look, we knew from the very beginning in '92, the monetary
:32:18. > :32:22.union without a fiscal entity will not function. Either we do this now
:32:22. > :32:27.- there is still the bail-out, this is sort of speaking here and acting
:32:27. > :32:32.there. This is what citizens detect as not being honest. This is the
:32:32. > :32:37.problem in terms of communication. That is where you lose faith and
:32:37. > :32:40.the voters. The political editor of the country's most popular
:32:40. > :32:44.newspaper says nothing less than the Chancellor's job is on the line.
:32:44. > :32:51.People asked, we have governments, we have Chancellor, we have a
:32:51. > :32:58.Finance Minister, what do they do about the euro crisis? If the euro
:32:59. > :33:07.crisis is fixed, she will win the next election. If it blows up, she
:33:07. > :33:09.will lose. It is easy. Even Gordon Brown has criticised Angela Merkel
:33:09. > :33:12.saying July's euro summit was a wasted opportunity. That is
:33:12. > :33:18.something Germany's Foreign Minister firmly rejects.
:33:18. > :33:23.management of the crisis is important but also to take the
:33:23. > :33:30.right consequences for the future and this is also important in our
:33:30. > :33:36.days. We are facing now a forked road for Europe and the European
:33:36. > :33:42.Union. We can decide do we go the way of less Europe, or do we go the
:33:42. > :33:49.way of more Europe? We think it is necessary to answer this crisis
:33:49. > :33:55.with more Europe which means that we have to implement of course the
:33:55. > :34:00.conclusions of July. For decades Germany has been in the driving
:34:00. > :34:04.seat of Europe but this crisis has caught it on the hop, reacting to
:34:04. > :34:08.events dictated but its southern neighbours rather than setting the
:34:08. > :34:15.agenda. The big question now facing German politicians is whether they
:34:15. > :34:19.can lead in Europe as well as keeping the German people happy?
:34:19. > :34:24.Germans are still remarkably pro- European and the country has
:34:24. > :34:29.benefited greatly from the EU. As the eurozone spins more and more
:34:29. > :34:32.out of control, the cost of their convictions is only going to rise.
:34:32. > :34:38.Joining me now live from Columbia University in New York is the
:34:38. > :34:44.economist Joseph Stiglitz. Good evening. Nice to be here. Is there
:34:44. > :34:50.any future for the euro without eurobonds? Well, I think it will be
:34:50. > :34:55.very difficult. There are other ways but the basic fact one has to
:34:55. > :34:59.come to grips with is that Europe as a whole is in very good
:34:59. > :35:09.financial position. The debt, GDP ratio is lower than the United
:35:09. > :35:09.
:35:09. > :35:16.States. But with so little fiscal room in so many of the countries
:35:16. > :35:23.unless some framework like European bonds are promoted, it will be very
:35:23. > :35:29.difficult for countries like Greece or Italy, Spain, Ireland, Portugal,
:35:29. > :35:34.to be able to meet their financial requirements. One of the points in
:35:34. > :35:44.this discussion that has been lost is that the cost of Germany, to
:35:44. > :35:44.
:35:44. > :35:50.Germany of dropping out is very large. If Germany were on its own,
:35:51. > :36:00.its exchange rate would depreciate. It's benefited enormously from the
:36:00. > :36:06.weak euro and Germany would have to pay severe consequences from the
:36:06. > :36:11.failure of others to repay their loans because they were the lenders.
:36:11. > :36:21.You heard the German Finance Minister opposed to a eurobond,
:36:21. > :36:21.
:36:22. > :36:25.talking about the problem without fiscal discipline. It is like
:36:25. > :36:30.giving your teenager a credit card, the Foreign Minister said? The fact
:36:30. > :36:34.of creating a European bond framework doesn't mean that it is
:36:34. > :36:39.done without discipline. There can be limits to the amount that can be
:36:39. > :36:45.and the conditions under which these bonds get issued. Let's be
:36:45. > :36:51.frank. In effect, governments are borrowing, they are borrowing from
:36:51. > :36:55.their individual banks, private banks and then these bonds are
:36:55. > :37:00.being rediscounted by the European Central Bank. In a way, it's
:37:00. > :37:03.already happening, but in a non- transparent way. And with a lot of
:37:03. > :37:10.uncertainty about when it is going to continue, how it is going to go
:37:10. > :37:16.forward. So right now, in effect, many governments are borrowing from
:37:16. > :37:22.Europe as a whole. If there isn't some solution like a eurobond, and
:37:22. > :37:26.if Germany doesn't step up to the plate to back the euro, is it
:37:26. > :37:35.likely that we will see countries like Greece and Portugal leaving
:37:35. > :37:44.the euro? It would be better for the euro if Germany left. The
:37:44. > :37:50.consequences for restructuring debts if Greece leaves or Portugal,
:37:50. > :37:57.or Ireland, are going to be very great. There will be great
:37:57. > :38:03.complexities and restructuring debt. Much easier if Germany...
:38:03. > :38:10.Politically, it is not going to happen? The question is, if Europe
:38:10. > :38:14.decides that the only way that it is going to continue is through
:38:14. > :38:18.some solidarity funds, solidarity approaches including eurobonds, and
:38:18. > :38:25.Germany says we don't want to pay the price, then it will be Germany
:38:25. > :38:32.that will have to leave. There will be questions about the governing
:38:32. > :38:36.structure, unanimity, if everybody except Germany decide they want to
:38:36. > :38:41.create this fund, but a couple of them don't, it is not clear who is
:38:41. > :38:44.leaving and who is staying. Tell me, though, crisis meeting in July,
:38:44. > :38:54.crisis meeting tomorrow, how quickly does this have to be
:38:54. > :39:04.nailed? Well, they keep having these crisis meetings and in spite
:39:04. > :39:05.
:39:05. > :39:14.of a lot of progress that they made in the July meeting, the fact is
:39:14. > :39:19.the fundamental problem, when the euro was created, it was not an
:39:19. > :39:25.optimal currency area. Other differences made it difficult for
:39:25. > :39:30.this system to work. It was only a matter of time until the
:39:30. > :39:39.difficulties of working with it as a single currency came to the fore.
:39:39. > :39:49.It is quite remarkable - the euro was only started in 2000. Its track
:39:49. > :39:53.
:39:53. > :39:56.record is not that long. Thank you very much. We return to the
:39:56. > :39:59.criminality of last week and the comparisons that have been made
:39:59. > :40:01.between what are being called the feral rich and the feral poor, the
:40:01. > :40:04.greed and avariciousness of bankers, MPs fiddling their expenses, Met
:40:04. > :40:07.police officers on backhanders, and the theft from local stores by
:40:07. > :40:11.looters grabbing anything they can get their hands on. Can we equate
:40:11. > :40:14.one with the other? In a moment, I'll be speaking to the MP Stella
:40:14. > :40:17.Creasey, who has a PhD in Social Psychology, and the Editor of City
:40:17. > :40:27.AM, Alistair Heath, but first a reminder of the scandals that have
:40:27. > :40:58.
:40:58. > :41:08.There was a period of remorse. That Give us our money back!
:41:08. > :41:09.
:41:09. > :41:13.What is the message to your I have decided to send to the
:41:13. > :41:17.Inland Revenue a cheque which is the equivalent of what would have
:41:17. > :41:27.been paid in Capital Gains Tax had it been liable when I have moved
:41:27. > :41:37.
:41:37. > :41:47.Your only motive was profit. You are not journalists? I would like
:41:47. > :41:50.
:41:50. > :41:55.to say just how sorry I am and how sorry we are. I'm joined by the
:41:55. > :41:58.Labour MP Stella Creasey and by Alistair Heath. Is the culture that
:41:58. > :42:05.gave us the excess of the bankers the same that gives us the looters
:42:05. > :42:11.on the streets? No. Of course the rot at the top of our society needs
:42:11. > :42:16.to be fought. I don't think the first caused or can justify the
:42:16. > :42:20.second. In fact, it makes our job harder. We find it harder to
:42:20. > :42:23.understand why we had all of this chaos on the streets last week. It
:42:23. > :42:28.will make it harder to fight it. is reasonable to assume these
:42:28. > :42:32.looters who were stealing big televisions think if somebody can
:42:32. > :42:36.fiddle �8,000 on their expenses, if somebody can take a bonus even
:42:36. > :42:46.though RBS is losing money, why can't we have a piece of the
:42:46. > :42:48.
:42:48. > :42:52.action? I think... I think that is too middle-class. If you are
:42:52. > :42:55.smashing a shop, you are not thinking about these things.
:42:56. > :43:00.that your analysis, Stella Creasey? I don't think anybody was so weak
:43:00. > :43:07.minded that the expensess crisis or the bankers were in their minds
:43:07. > :43:11.when they were stealing these TVs. It is about the signals that we
:43:11. > :43:16.send. The important of being very clear that there are sanctions for
:43:16. > :43:26.bad behaviour and in that sense, there is a commonalty in saying if
:43:26. > :43:27.
:43:27. > :43:37.we have a culture and we don't put sanctions, there is a problem.
:43:37. > :43:49.
:43:49. > :43:55.it morally wrong to be avaricious? How did we get here to have a
:43:55. > :44:00.society when the looters came to my area other people followed them and
:44:00. > :44:03.they thought it was OK to take trainers. That is what moral
:44:03. > :44:06.questions are about. It is about all of us understanding the
:44:06. > :44:14.consequences of people's behaviour and coming together to say these
:44:14. > :44:21.aren't the values that we want to see in our society. Those values go
:44:21. > :44:27.across every area of society? do. It is a mistake and a
:44:27. > :44:31.misunderstanding to come up with criminal explanations for the
:44:31. > :44:34.recession. We have to tackle everything. We have to tackle phone
:44:34. > :44:39.hacking, police corruption, problems in the economy. I think
:44:39. > :44:45.what we saw on the streets was very different. It was a tragic tale of
:44:45. > :44:50.this group of people who were completely alienated from society.
:44:50. > :44:55.The people on the streets, they alienate themselves, are they
:44:55. > :44:59.separate? Are they separate? In fact, Shirley Williams coined the
:44:59. > :45:04.expression "the underclass". Are you saying they are different?
:45:04. > :45:11.have become different as a result of flawed policies from both
:45:11. > :45:15.parties, from the establishment. That is where the rich are to blame.
:45:15. > :45:20.They thought chucking money at these people would make the
:45:20. > :45:24.problems go away. They were wrong. Other than that, we should make
:45:24. > :45:30.clear distinctions between looting, arson, murder and the sort of
:45:30. > :45:33.things we have seen during the "credit crunch". Redistribution,
:45:33. > :45:38.Tony Blair never worried about the gap between rich and poor.
:45:38. > :45:42.Redistribution in your book is the right thing to do if it is
:45:42. > :45:48.accompanied by better policies in general? Moral arguments allow us
:45:48. > :45:52.to do what Alistair Heath is asking us to do. So people who commit
:45:52. > :45:55.fraud and bankers who behave in ways which are morally
:45:55. > :45:58.reprehensible. The consequences of their behaviour are damaging to the
:45:58. > :46:01.rest of society. There is an important cultural debate to be had
:46:01. > :46:06.here. The Prime Minister and Ed Miliband have talked about the
:46:06. > :46:11.signals we send out, about the social norms that we want to see
:46:11. > :46:15.our society living by, values to you and me. It is right we are able
:46:15. > :46:19.to differentiate between those and criminal activities. A moral debate
:46:19. > :46:29.needs to have many people taking part in it. That is why I am
:46:29. > :46:31.
:46:31. > :46:35.concerned when I hear people talk about an underclass. Thank you both
:46:35. > :46:41.very much. Tomorrow morning's front-pages. The Guardian, tough
:46:41. > :46:49.love and tougher policing: PM's solution for "Broken Britain".
:46:49. > :46:59.National Service for every teenager - in the Daily Express. The Times,
:46:59. > :47:01.