:00:07. > :00:13.It's not yet all over in Lybia, but it looks as if it is almost over.
:00:13. > :00:18.What now? They celebrate the downfall of the
:00:18. > :00:22.dictator, but how to ensure that what follows is better, or even
:00:22. > :00:29.coherent, is this the end of a revolution or the start of new
:00:29. > :00:32.conflicts? Power now resides in Benghazi, but
:00:32. > :00:36.is the so-called National Transitional Council to be trusted?
:00:36. > :00:42.Their man in London is here, as is the International Development
:00:42. > :00:48.Secretary. Remember this: Never fall again for
:00:48. > :00:52.the doctrine of isolationism, because the world truly cannot
:00:52. > :00:57.afford it. Is Libya akin to Kosovo, the sort of military action he
:00:57. > :01:00.tried to sell to the world. If so, can we expect more western
:01:01. > :01:06.interventions, or are they limited merely to tyrannies that look
:01:06. > :01:12.vulnerable. It is a wipout in the Test Match,
:01:12. > :01:15.as India demolish India again, is an entire pool of home-grown talent
:01:15. > :01:18.being ignored. There is only one Asian guy in there at the moment.
:01:18. > :01:28.You are telling me there is no other Asian player in the whole of
:01:28. > :01:29.
:01:29. > :01:33.the system? Colonel Gaddafi was always a man
:01:33. > :01:37.whose political claims were as plausible as his dyed hair and
:01:37. > :01:40.pantomime military uniforms. But his promise to fight on tonight is
:01:40. > :01:45.especially empty. His regime has collapsed with surprising speed,
:01:45. > :01:48.and the rebels now control most of the Libyan capital and it is
:01:48. > :01:52.reported tonight the International Airport. President Obama has said
:01:52. > :01:56.Gaddafi's only option is to quit the stage.
:01:56. > :02:01.We piece together the battle for Tripoli.
:02:01. > :02:06.It is not the end quite yet, but today surely marked the tipping
:02:06. > :02:09.point. In Tripoli jubilant crowds sing the
:02:09. > :02:19.new National Anthem. In fact, the old National Anthem from the days
:02:19. > :02:20.
:02:20. > :02:26.of the king, overthrown by Gaddafi in 1969.
:02:26. > :02:33.Just a few days ago it seemed the Libyan civil war was in stalemate,
:02:33. > :02:39.but suddenly everything has changed. Today, the crowds could dare to
:02:39. > :02:42.smash Gaddafi's picture. As rebels streamed into Tripoli,
:02:43. > :02:49.claiming to control most, but certainly not all of the city,
:02:49. > :02:57.after their rapid advance. So he played his last card f you
:02:57. > :03:01.can saying, his last game. So all the army of Gaddafi now they fight
:03:01. > :03:04.without any orders, without anything.
:03:04. > :03:08.But Gaddafi's troops have not all surrendered. Today a BBC team
:03:08. > :03:18.filmed this take on a rebel convoy, travelling along the coast towards
:03:18. > :03:19.
:03:19. > :03:24.the centre of Tripoli. And tonight a doctor in the city
:03:24. > :03:28.told Newsnight he expected more resistance. We have to expect some
:03:28. > :03:35.resistance. Otherwise we are not imagining well, so the resistance
:03:35. > :03:39.is expected. But not so effective. Though the rebels are still
:03:39. > :03:49.threatened by some pro-Gaddafi force, the most decisive battle has
:03:49. > :03:52.
:03:52. > :03:56.already been fought. The rebels stormed into the city
:03:56. > :04:01.last night, firing their weapons in celebration. But how do they
:04:01. > :04:04.finally manage to take Tripoli? It seems there were two key factor,
:04:04. > :04:08.the assault seems to have been well co-ordinated by different rebel
:04:08. > :04:16.groups w NATO bombing strikes also playing a crucial role.
:04:16. > :04:20.At the weekend, rebels pushing in from the Tunisian border, finally
:04:20. > :04:24.took Zawiya, a major turning point. With anti-Gaddafi forces gaining
:04:24. > :04:28.control of supply roads in the south, and Misrata in the east
:04:28. > :04:33.secured, it left the Libyan leader surrounded and under siege. When
:04:33. > :04:38.the rebels reached the headquarters of the Khamis Brigade, and found it
:04:38. > :04:45.abandoned, the full scale assault on Tripoli was on. Inside Tripoli
:04:45. > :04:48.itself, areas sympathetic to the rebels were quick to respond.
:04:48. > :04:51.Fashloum and Tajoura fell as local people took to the streets, as did
:04:51. > :04:55.the symbolically important Green Square. It isn't over yet, parts of
:04:55. > :05:03.Tripoli, including the port, and Bab Al-Aziziya, Gaddafi's compound,
:05:03. > :05:08.still appear to be under the control of Gaddafi's forces.
:05:08. > :05:11.The second factor was NATO. There has been a blitz of NATO air
:05:12. > :05:15.attacks on targets in and around Tripoli in the past few day, and
:05:15. > :05:19.continuing today. The highest number in one location since the
:05:19. > :05:23.bombing campaign began. They could not have succeeded
:05:23. > :05:27.without NATO's assistance, that has to be recognised. They simply would
:05:27. > :05:32.not have taken Zawiya as quickly as they did. They would not have
:05:32. > :05:35.advanced on Tripoli, if NATO air strikes hadn't softened up regime
:05:36. > :05:41.armour so effectively. People on the ground in Libya recognise this.
:05:41. > :05:45.The challenge for NATO now is to get back behind the scenes,
:05:45. > :05:55.unobtrusively, and extend discreet assistance, without twisting arms
:05:55. > :05:56.
:05:56. > :06:01.or making a public show of it. What is still not known, of course,
:06:01. > :06:05.is the where abouts of Gaddafi himself. Who faces an arrest
:06:05. > :06:08.warrant from the International Criminal Court, for alleged crimes
:06:08. > :06:16.against humanity. The rebel National Transitional Council say
:06:16. > :06:22.they hope he is captured alive. TRANSLATION: We hope that he is
:06:22. > :06:26.captured alive. So that he will be given a fair trial. Tonight his
:06:27. > :06:31.future looks bleak. Two of his sons are said to have been captured and
:06:31. > :06:37.now to be in rebel hands. A third, Mohammed, escaped, he was on the
:06:37. > :06:46.phone to a TV station. TRANSLATION: I'm being attacked
:06:47. > :06:51.right now, this is gunfire inside my house. They are inside my house.
:06:51. > :06:56.As for his own whereabouts, if Gaddafi is still in Libya, as seems
:06:56. > :07:00.likely, it is possible he has fled his residence and fortified
:07:00. > :07:05.compound in Tripoli, and his possible hideouts include his birth
:07:05. > :07:14.place, Sirte in the east, and still under his forces' control. He could
:07:14. > :07:21.be out in his beloved desert, perhaps around Sabha, with Libyan
:07:21. > :07:24.tribes, still loyal. After nearly 42 years Gaddafi's era is surely
:07:24. > :07:27.over. With us is the International
:07:27. > :07:32.Development Secretary, Andrew Mitchell, you must be delighted our
:07:32. > :07:36.side won? I think so far so good. But there's an awful lot of
:07:36. > :07:39.uncertainty and doubt still around. Of course, presumably the danger in
:07:39. > :07:43.your mind is this will degenerate into something like the situation
:07:43. > :07:47.in Iraq, after the apparent victory? We hope we have learned
:07:47. > :07:50.the lessons of Iraq, in the work that Britain and other countries
:07:50. > :07:55.have been doing on stablisation, for what comes when the fighting is
:07:55. > :07:58.over. That process, of course, will belong to the National Transitional
:07:58. > :08:01.Council, it will be led and owned by them. But there is a huge amount
:08:01. > :08:04.of work that Britain and other countries have done into planning
:08:04. > :08:09.for what goes next. We are not still maintaining the fiction that
:08:09. > :08:12.this was a civil war, despite the fact that we had planes involved,
:08:12. > :08:16.special forces on the ground, the French armed the rebels, we are not
:08:16. > :08:20.maintaining that fiction any longer are we? We are absolutely clear
:08:20. > :08:24.that the reason we joined the coalition, the reason we helped
:08:24. > :08:28.lead the coalition and provided our planes and airmen and women was to
:08:28. > :08:32.stop a bloody massacre taking place in Benghazi. If we hadn't
:08:32. > :08:36.intervened, you don't need to look in the crystal ball, it is in the
:08:36. > :08:40.book, Gaddafi said he would go from house-to-house in Benghazi. The
:08:40. > :08:44.reason for the intervention was to stop that massacre taking place.
:08:44. > :08:50.And we will stop a similar massacre in Syria, will we? Syria is a very
:08:50. > :08:54.different position. First of all, the whole of the Arab world was
:08:54. > :08:59.deeply opposed to what Gaddafi was doing. Syria is different. It is
:08:59. > :09:04.not to do what you can do, because there are things you cannot do.
:09:04. > :09:07.That is why, although our room for manoeuvre is constrained, in Libya
:09:07. > :09:10.it is clear what was needed to be done and we did it. We should be
:09:10. > :09:14.proud of the fact that Britain helped to lead that effort. You are
:09:14. > :09:17.saying we do what the Arab world allows us to do in the Arab world?
:09:17. > :09:22.I think it is the art of the possible. It was possible on Libya
:09:22. > :09:27.to take this action, and I think most people are extremely pleased
:09:27. > :09:31.we did so. The limits of our principles are what other
:09:31. > :09:34.Governments in that part of the world, frequently themselves
:09:34. > :09:37.tyrannies, decree as possible? of the problem with Syria is there
:09:37. > :09:43.isn't agreement in the way there was on Libya. That is another
:09:43. > :09:47.factor as well. Will we seek a UN resolution authorising the use of
:09:47. > :09:52.force to protect civilians in Syria? I don't think that is
:09:52. > :09:55.practical. What we can do to protect civilians what we are doing
:09:55. > :09:59.through organisations like the ICRC, one of the few organisations who
:09:59. > :10:02.can get into Syria and through whom we can try to bring some
:10:02. > :10:06.humanitarian help to people in a very dark place. What is the
:10:06. > :10:10.difference between Syria and Libya? It is the art of the possible, and
:10:10. > :10:13.it is also the fact that there was widespread agreement on the action
:10:13. > :10:19.we took on Lybia, which has been lacking consistently on Syria.
:10:19. > :10:22.be clear of this, you are proud of what we did in Libya? I think it
:10:22. > :10:25.was the right beings and a brave decision the Government and Prime
:10:25. > :10:30.Minister took. There were many people who said you could not
:10:30. > :10:35.impose a no-fly zone, you couldn't achieve what we achieved from the
:10:35. > :10:39.air, and we have. We averted what would undoubtedly have been a
:10:39. > :10:42.bloody massacre in Benghazi. As far as Colonel Gaddafi is concerned
:10:42. > :10:48.what would you like the National Transitional Council to do with
:10:48. > :10:52.him? He should surrender, he should tell his rapidly diminishing band
:10:52. > :10:55.of supporters to lay down their arms. Then it is matter for the NTC,
:10:55. > :10:59.the authorities in Libya, over whether he should go through a
:10:59. > :11:04.justice system in Libya, or whether he should be sent to the Hague.
:11:04. > :11:08.have no feelings on that as a Government? It is matter for the
:11:08. > :11:13.Libyan people, power exercised through the National Transitional
:11:13. > :11:15.Council. Surely we should be committed to him appearing before
:11:15. > :11:19.the International Criminal Court at the moment? They are not a member
:11:19. > :11:24.of the ICC at the moment, the commitment is to him undergoing
:11:24. > :11:29.justice. In the way the ICC work, that can be done by a justice
:11:29. > :11:31.system inside Libya, or failing that, the Hague. Were the National
:11:31. > :11:36.Transitional Council, or whatever that evolves into, and we have no
:11:36. > :11:41.idea, to decide he should face some form of summary justice, and be
:11:41. > :11:44.hanged along with his familiarly we are quite content to let them do
:11:44. > :11:51.that? We do know what the National Transitional Council plans, they
:11:51. > :11:53.plan a new constitution, they plan a new approach with elections after
:11:54. > :12:00.eight months. That is what the National Transitional Council will
:12:00. > :12:04.announce when the fighting is over. The chairman is able to go to
:12:04. > :12:09.Tripoli. The new constitution will determine the nature of the justice
:12:09. > :12:12.system in Libya. That is why I say it is a matter for the National
:12:12. > :12:16.Transitional Council to decide whether or not Gaddafi should face
:12:16. > :12:22.justice in the Hague under the ICC, or whether it should be done
:12:22. > :12:25.through Libyan justice. Once the NTC has taken power, will we be
:12:25. > :12:29.requesting that Mr Al-Megrahi come back to serve the rest of his
:12:29. > :12:34.sentence in a Scottish jail? There is a process for that. But nars for
:12:34. > :12:37.the Scottish Government to decide. We have - it is a matter for the
:12:37. > :12:40.Scottish Government to decide. We condemn the decision taken, we
:12:40. > :12:44.think it was the wrong decision, the fact that Mr Al-Megrahi is
:12:45. > :12:49.alive today rather underlines that point. Thank you very much. Just
:12:49. > :12:53.briefly joining us from New York is John Bolton, the former US
:12:53. > :12:58.Ambassador, we will talk to him at greater length in a minute or two.
:12:58. > :13:02.I would be interested to ask you Mr Bolton, do you think when Mr
:13:02. > :13:07.Gaddafi goes, Mr Al-Megrahi should be requested to be returned to a
:13:07. > :13:11.Scottish jail? No, I think he should be sent to the United States
:13:11. > :13:15.where we could try him. The terms under which the US agreed to Al-
:13:15. > :13:19.Megrahi being tried in a Spanish court have been violated both by
:13:19. > :13:24.the Government of Libya and by the Government of Great Britain. I
:13:24. > :13:29.think that any commitment that we might have made that would release
:13:29. > :13:34.him from the potential of American prosecution, for, afterall, killing
:13:34. > :13:37.189 Americans, has been voided. My view would be he deserves to come
:13:37. > :13:41.to this country to have a trial here. And you will be asking for
:13:41. > :13:45.that, if you were in Government, would you? I certainly would,
:13:45. > :13:48.absolutely. We are going to talk you a bit more in a moment or two.
:13:48. > :13:52.First we will have another piece of tape. The overthrow of Gaddafi is a
:13:53. > :13:55.long way from the end of the story. Power now seems to lie with
:13:55. > :14:01.something called the National Transitional Council, but who are
:14:01. > :14:09.they? How did they get the gig? Can they be trusted. We spent much of
:14:09. > :14:12.recent weeks with the Libyan rebels. When the advance came it was
:14:12. > :14:16.unexpectedly fast. After months of near stalemate, the road to Tripoli
:14:16. > :14:20.suddenly opened up. The streets of the capital, so often until
:14:20. > :14:26.recently the scene of demonstrations in support of
:14:26. > :14:29.Colonel Gaddafi, were now filled with jubilant rebel fighters. The
:14:29. > :14:34.battle for Tripoli isn't over yet, but the regime's grip on the
:14:34. > :14:41.capital, which had held out, despite months of NATO air strikes,
:14:41. > :14:45.this weekend appeared to slip away. Libya's rebel force, so often
:14:45. > :14:49.derided as a rabble, looked much more organised. They didn't do it
:14:49. > :14:54.alone. NATO was serving as the rebel Air Force. An auxiliary air
:14:54. > :14:58.arm of the free Libyan forces. There is no doubt about the way
:14:58. > :15:02.they interpreted their mission to protect civilians, was to
:15:02. > :15:07.facilitate a rebel advance on Tripoli. That was obvious from the
:15:07. > :15:11.high degree of assistance they furnished to the rebels as they
:15:11. > :15:14.marched towards Tripoli. NATO's stated mandate throughout the
:15:14. > :15:17.conflict has been to protect civilians and civilian
:15:17. > :15:21.infrastructure. But if there was one thing that both the rebels and
:15:21. > :15:26.Colonel Gaddafi could agree on, it was that Britain and others were
:15:26. > :15:30.firmly supporting the National Transitional Council. The NTC, the
:15:30. > :15:36.rebels' political leadership in Benghazi. Last month, along with
:15:36. > :15:40.more than 30 other countries, the UK formally recognised the
:15:40. > :15:44.unelected body as Libya's sole, legitimate governing authority.
:15:44. > :15:47.Through its actions the National Transitional Council has shown its
:15:47. > :15:50.commitment to a more open and democratic Lybia, something it is
:15:50. > :15:54.working to achieve through an inclusive political process. This
:15:54. > :15:59.is in stark contrast to Gaddafi, whose brutality against the Libyan
:15:59. > :16:02.people has striped him of all legitimacy. Who exactly are these
:16:02. > :16:06.rebels, that the National Transitional Council says it
:16:06. > :16:09.represents? The revolution had its first flowering in Benghazi, which
:16:09. > :16:13.became the political capital of the opposition. But the rebels'
:16:13. > :16:18.military campaign never developed into a single unified push
:16:19. > :16:22.westwards, instead, fighting broke out in pockets, the port city of
:16:22. > :16:28.Misrata became a rebel-held stronghold, isolated and cut off
:16:28. > :16:33.from the rest of the movement. Then fighting gained momentum on a third
:16:33. > :16:43.front, in the Nafusa Mountains, ethnic divisions sim merd, there
:16:43. > :16:48.was an uneasy eye lines. The NT. - uneasy alliance. The NTC has had to
:16:48. > :16:53.work alongside, the Berbers, who have done much fighting, Islamists,
:16:53. > :16:59.fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq, those who would classify themselves
:16:59. > :17:04.as Jihadis, those who are secular, those who are tribunally orientated,
:17:04. > :17:06.those - tribally orientated, and those interested in only a
:17:06. > :17:11.democratic Libya. Once the Government falls it will be the
:17:11. > :17:14.task of the rebel leaders to join the disparate groups, or at least
:17:14. > :17:19.persuade them not to turn their guns on each other. That happened
:17:19. > :17:23.in July when a senior rebel commander was shot and killed by
:17:23. > :17:26.members of a rival rebel brigade. Today the chairman of the NTC
:17:26. > :17:30.issued a warning to fighters to maintain discipline and security,
:17:30. > :17:34.and to guard against the threat from what he called Islamist
:17:34. > :17:37.extremists. With the prospect of victory in sight, the shadow of
:17:37. > :17:42.Iraq hangs over Libya's future there are, of course, plenty of
:17:42. > :17:48.differences between the two countries, but the initial euphoria
:17:48. > :17:53.over the toppling of Saddam Hussein, did lead to a dissent into vicious
:17:53. > :18:00.infighting, that is a powerful echo. In Iraq the Iraqis deposed the
:18:00. > :18:05.Government, and through bathecation, it striped out a lot of the senior
:18:05. > :18:12.- bathification, it striped out a lot of the senior and middle
:18:12. > :18:17.management. Libya has put some effort into evolving plan so as not
:18:17. > :18:22.to repeat the hard lessons learned in Iraq. After decades of rule of
:18:22. > :18:28.one man alone, Libya is a curious mix of political simplicity and
:18:28. > :18:32.ambition. As I saw skrauld on the walls of Misrata last month. This
:18:32. > :18:37.one says we want checks and balances on the President's power,
:18:37. > :18:42.and four-year, non-extendable term limits. That might sound like a
:18:42. > :18:46.terribly good idea in principle, the question is, after 42 years of
:18:46. > :18:49.dictatorship, how easy will it be to achieve in practice. Since then,
:18:49. > :18:52.the rebel political leadership has got round to drafting a
:18:52. > :18:55.constitution. It is the kind of document that few people would
:18:56. > :19:01.disagree with. It calls for a multiparty political system, with
:19:01. > :19:06.equal rights for all. But there is one crucial section, Article Two 9,
:19:06. > :19:10.which says that the members of the Transitonal National Council may
:19:10. > :19:14.not nominate for or assume the position of President of state, the
:19:14. > :19:20.membership of the Legislative Councils, or ministerial portfolios.
:19:20. > :19:24.It is a guarantee, a reassurance to the rest of Libya, that the
:19:24. > :19:28.political leaders in Benghazi won't simply seize power as soon as
:19:28. > :19:31.Tripoli falls. When the fighting end ends and they return to their
:19:31. > :19:36.normal lives, these people will stop being rebels, but their
:19:36. > :19:41.biggest challenge may be to come, to maintain their unity of purpose
:19:41. > :19:50.after their common enemy as been removed. With us now is the UK co-
:19:51. > :19:56.ordinator in London for the NTC. And John Bolton is still with us.
:19:56. > :20:00.What is your reaction to the situation tonight. Is it unalloyed
:20:00. > :20:04.delight or are you apprehensive? You have to multitask in this
:20:04. > :20:09.situation, I think it is clear that Gaddafi's regime is over, and I
:20:09. > :20:13.think it is still very uncertain how bloody the end game will be.
:20:13. > :20:18.That potential is very real. I think there is huge uncertainty now
:20:18. > :20:22.what follows Gaddafi. There is no doubt in my mind that eliminating
:20:22. > :20:29.his regime was the right thing to do, but it is very uncertain what
:20:29. > :20:34.comes next. That is obviously a critical issue. Your worry is what?
:20:34. > :20:41.The worry is several fold, first, that the rebels fall to fighting
:20:41. > :20:46.among themselves. And we end up with continuing hostilities and the
:20:46. > :20:50.risk that Libya would deteriorate to similar to what we have in
:20:50. > :20:55.Somalia or Yemen, giving Al-Qaeda or others a chance to establish an
:20:55. > :20:59.operating base. Or second, that among the disparate elements of the
:20:59. > :21:03.rebel coalition, that radical Islamists, or even Al-Qaeda
:21:03. > :21:09.elements that NATO has identified, could come to predominate. I don't
:21:09. > :21:11.say that is inevitable, far from it, it is very uncertain. We have the
:21:11. > :21:15.UK co-ordinator for the National Transitional Council here. The fact
:21:15. > :21:21.is, you haven't got anything in common, apart from the fact that
:21:21. > :21:30.you all wanted Gaddafi to go? the contrary, Jeremy, Libyan
:21:30. > :21:34.society is the most hom genius society among all the Arab -
:21:34. > :21:39.homogenesis society among all the Arab nations. Even the tribal
:21:39. > :21:45.nature of our society has been hugely exaggerate. We are totally
:21:45. > :21:49.united and determined Libya will be one country and Tripoli the capital.
:21:49. > :21:53.We are nationalist, overwhelmingly, we think of Libya first. We
:21:53. > :21:58.determine that after Gaddafi is over, and his regime is effectively
:21:58. > :22:04.over, we want to rebuild the country along constitutional,
:22:04. > :22:07.democratic system, that will allow everybody to participate and allow
:22:07. > :22:12.all Libyans to reach their aspirations. That sounds wonderful,
:22:12. > :22:16.it has to come true, that's all that needs to happen. I hope it
:22:16. > :22:20.does. I'm simply saying no-one at the moment can say it honestly will.
:22:20. > :22:24.Neither can you? We can only rise up to the challenge. We have
:22:24. > :22:27.already got plans in place, we have the vision in place. The last six
:22:27. > :22:31.months we have done detailed planning, and we are already
:22:31. > :22:35.unfolding these plans, and implementing them in Tripoli as we
:22:35. > :22:43.speak. Unlike other experiences before in other Arab countries that
:22:43. > :22:47.have been with an American diplomat put in charge and decimating the
:22:47. > :22:51.institutions, we will be inclusive and maintain all the institutions
:22:51. > :22:56.of the country and everybody must report back. What about the other
:22:56. > :23:00.point raised, the danger of some Islamist organisation, Al-Qaeda or
:23:00. > :23:06.whoever, taking power in Libya, or being able to use it at least as
:23:06. > :23:10.base? I refer you to a statement by General Mullen, who is the American
:23:10. > :23:16.Chief-of-Staff, who says on record there is no signs or proof of any
:23:16. > :23:21.Al-Qaeda elements in Libya. That again is something Gaddafi used as
:23:21. > :23:25.frightening the west, it has not materialised. Libyan society tends
:23:25. > :23:31.to be moderate. Libyans are religious, but they are moderates.
:23:31. > :23:37.They do not tolerate extremism one way or another, we do not have any
:23:37. > :23:40.Al-Qaeda elements in there. shot the head of the army then?
:23:41. > :23:45.That is a subject of an investigation and we should have
:23:45. > :23:48.the results soon. We don't know who they are, but they are definitely
:23:48. > :23:54.not Al-Qaeda members. We do not have an Al-Qaeda organisation in
:23:54. > :23:58.Libya. It was one of your own, I think. John Bolton. We don't know
:23:58. > :24:02.yet. John Bolton, the fact of the matter surely is that Libya is
:24:02. > :24:07.better off tonight than it was under the dictatorship of a
:24:07. > :24:14.lunatic? Well, I hope so. But I think that remains unproven. As I
:24:14. > :24:20.say, number one, we still have the prospect of Gaddafi and bitter
:24:20. > :24:23.enders along with him, not just in Tripoli, but in Brega and Sirte and
:24:23. > :24:29.other parts of Libya, not yet captured by the rebels, continuing
:24:29. > :24:35.to hold out. There is the prospect of guerrilla warfare by those who
:24:35. > :24:39.were part of the Gaddafi regime, or loyal to it. And despite the
:24:39. > :24:44.optimisim that we have just heard, experts in this country and in
:24:44. > :24:47.other NATO countries who know a thing or two about Libya are very
:24:47. > :24:51.worried that the transitional Government will not be able to hold
:24:51. > :24:55.together. I say again, I don't think it is inevitable that they
:24:55. > :24:59.will come apart. I just don't think we know at this point, and all of
:24:59. > :25:04.this will be subject to verification. I think the United
:25:04. > :25:09.States should work hard to make the successor regime a positive
:25:09. > :25:13.development. I just don't think we can have confidence at this point
:25:13. > :25:18.until we know what the outcome will be. It has taken much, much longer
:25:18. > :25:22.and cost much more than Governments in London and Paris and other NATO
:25:22. > :25:25.capitals expected. The outcome of a confrontation between the world's
:25:25. > :25:28.most powerful military alliance and a despot dictator should never have
:25:28. > :25:32.been in doubt. There were plenty who said it couldn't be done.
:25:32. > :25:35.Instead it is a victory of sorts for what is known as liberal
:25:35. > :25:39.interventionism, western democracies making war to spread
:25:39. > :25:48.their values. But no-one is suggesting they try it in Syria,
:25:48. > :25:52.for example. Cost vow, Sierra Leone, Afghanistan,
:25:52. > :25:56.Iraq, and now Libya. The circumstances in which Britain
:25:56. > :26:02.intervenes and the way it gets involved, has been evolving. David
:26:02. > :26:05.Cameron says he has learned the lessons of a difficult decade.
:26:05. > :26:10.I think the Prime Minister and everybody involved in this policy
:26:10. > :26:14.is terrified of a repeat, the humiliations and the mess we found
:26:14. > :26:18.in Afghanistan. Everybody is hoping it will be more like the situation
:26:18. > :26:21.in Bosnia, which was positive. The last two decades have been really
:26:21. > :26:24.confusing. At times the international community, the US and
:26:24. > :26:28.the Allies have felt it can do almost anything it wants. At other
:26:28. > :26:31.times it feels it can do nothing. Looking at Libya, there will be the
:26:31. > :26:34.great temptation to take responsibility for the whole thing.
:26:34. > :26:38.At the same time a real fear that things may collapse if we don't get
:26:38. > :26:43.involved. One of the principles of Tony
:26:43. > :26:47.Blair's style of liberal intervention, was summed up by the
:26:47. > :26:51.philosophy that if we break a country we have a responsibility to
:26:51. > :26:56.fix it. Interventionism doesn't mean just militarily intervening
:26:56. > :26:59.and then going home. Because the whole principle arises from the
:26:59. > :27:03.doctrine of the responsibility to protect. That means you have a
:27:03. > :27:07.responsibility to the citizens of the country, in which you are
:27:07. > :27:11.intervening, that responsibility doesn't end the moment that a
:27:11. > :27:18.tyrant is toppled. It means you have a continuing responsibility,
:27:18. > :27:21.which wasn't very well exercised in the case of Iraq, but we hope
:27:21. > :27:25.better exercised in Libya. What was interesting from the Prime
:27:25. > :27:29.Minister's statement is how little he was taking ownership of what is
:27:29. > :27:33.happening in Libya, he was purposefully playing down Britain's
:27:33. > :27:37.role? There is much more to be done, it is still a difficult situation
:27:37. > :27:40.in Tripoli, but it is clear a huge amount has changed in the last few
:27:40. > :27:44.days, that gives people confidence that the people of Libya are close
:27:44. > :27:49.to what they want. This is about them, this is not about us, it is
:27:49. > :27:55.about a country in North Africa that warrants a future of freedom
:27:55. > :28:00.and democracy, that wantsor part of the Arab Spring. We want to - wants
:28:00. > :28:06.to be part of the Arab Spring. We shunned be too much about the role
:28:06. > :28:10.we played. It needs to lie in the correct place, which is in the
:28:10. > :28:13.ruling authorities in the country itself. As Mr Cameron rightly made
:28:13. > :28:17.clear, it will be a Libyan-led exercise, the international
:28:17. > :28:22.community will get involved, only in accordance with requests from
:28:22. > :28:25.Libya. That is the right way round, rather than trying to impose any
:28:25. > :28:29.vision from outside on the country in question.
:28:29. > :28:33.Inside Number Ten, there is an acknowledgement that Britain's
:28:33. > :28:38.involvement in getting rid of Colonel Gaddafi, if that is indeed
:28:38. > :28:40.what is happening at the moment was only possible because a stringent
:28:41. > :28:46.set of criteria were first satisfied. Firstly, western powers
:28:46. > :28:52.were on board, but not only that, so was the Arab League, the UN gave
:28:52. > :28:55.its approval as did NATO. By contrast, they say, Tony Blair's
:28:56. > :29:00.doctrine of international intervention would have demanded
:29:00. > :29:04.action even if none of those criteria were satisfied.
:29:04. > :29:09.David Cameron certainly doesn't sound as evangelical in the cause
:29:09. > :29:14.of spreading democracy, as some of his predecessors. In Cairo in
:29:14. > :29:21.February, as the Arab Spring formed into uncertain bud, he described
:29:21. > :29:25.democracy as the patient work of decades. He was not, he declared, a
:29:25. > :29:29.naive neo-con, who thinks it can be dropped from 40,000 feet. I think
:29:29. > :29:34.where Tony Blair got it wrong, he always exaggerated our fears and
:29:34. > :29:37.our power. He was always saying this is an extension threat to
:29:37. > :29:41.global security, this is a failed state, on the one hand. On the
:29:41. > :29:44.other hand he would say we can sort it out, give us the troops and
:29:44. > :29:48.resources, we can sort it out. That needs to be left behind now. We
:29:48. > :29:53.need to move into a much more modest world, where we are much
:29:53. > :29:58.more humble, we can do a bit, it is largely about local action, we can
:29:58. > :30:03.support around the edges, there is a chance of doing something, that
:30:03. > :30:07.isn't the stuff of great political speeches. The action in Libya may
:30:07. > :30:10.provide a template for future intervention. It has not thus far
:30:10. > :30:14.required Britain's rather worn military boots to hit the ground.
:30:14. > :30:17.It is a template that acknowledges its own limitations. Without, for
:30:17. > :30:24.example, a complete change in the international climate, it is
:30:24. > :30:28.difficult to see how it can be extended to Syria or Iran.
:30:28. > :30:37.A Foreign Office minister and UN deputy secretary-general is with us
:30:37. > :30:42.now, along with a Labour MP, we are joined from Washington by Elliott
:30:42. > :30:44.Abrahams who advised George Bush on Libyan affairs.
:30:44. > :30:49.Does this prove that interventionism works? It worked in
:30:49. > :30:53.the case of Libya, I take the point that Libya was a great case. The
:30:53. > :30:56.people were against the regime, he had been a terrorist, the Arab
:30:56. > :31:02.League, the UN, everyone was in favour. But it certainly helps the
:31:02. > :31:08.case, I would say, of liberal interventionism. It is very
:31:08. > :31:13.striking that David Cameron did not come into office planning this sort
:31:13. > :31:19.of temptways, or to succumb to this sort of temptation? That's right, I
:31:19. > :31:24.doubt he will again. This was, as he and his ministers insist, a
:31:24. > :31:29.once-off, as Elliott has said, all the signals pointed in the right
:31:29. > :31:32.direction t created an almost irresistable opportunity, and an
:31:32. > :31:36.irresistable moral duty. That threat to the citizens of Benghazi
:31:36. > :31:40.we all saw, was something any decent politician would have tried
:31:40. > :31:46.to act. This raises the very interesting question about when you
:31:46. > :31:51.feel you can act or you must act and when you feel you shouldn't or
:31:51. > :31:56.you can't? Clearly in this case there was an international
:31:56. > :32:01.consensus that had been built up, with the demands from the people of
:32:01. > :32:11.Libya, who wanted action, who wanted support. I think what we
:32:11. > :32:14.have to be clear about is the duty to protect the UN resolution that
:32:14. > :32:18.was established, it was a lot less clear how the international
:32:18. > :32:22.community should respond. I think it is really positive that there is
:32:22. > :32:26.a duty to protect civilians when they are threatened by dictators,
:32:26. > :32:30.this is an important example of that happening. We have to take
:32:30. > :32:34.care when we take interventions and how it is doss done. The critical
:32:34. > :32:41.thing is - how it is done. The critical thing is the Libyan people
:32:41. > :32:44.are at the forefront of determining their destinies, and countries
:32:44. > :32:47.should intervene with care. only people who can take the
:32:47. > :32:51.decision about whether to intervene or not, are the people who will do
:32:51. > :32:55.the intervening, surely? We have the United Nations, we have the
:32:55. > :33:00.international legal instruments, which need to be observed. We know
:33:00. > :33:05.from the situation with the Iraq war what happens when there isn't a
:33:05. > :33:10.consensus. Are you expect to go see more interventions? Not really. I
:33:10. > :33:15.think for two reasons. It is very interesting the political debate in
:33:15. > :33:21.Washington, where even the right have been deeply sceptical about
:33:21. > :33:26.this. Because you know neo-con political ambition has run into
:33:26. > :33:29.fiscal reality. What we are seeing in the US, the debate about
:33:29. > :33:34.military overstretch, bringing the troops home, spend the money at
:33:34. > :33:39.home. We will see a very similar debate here in the UK. So I think
:33:39. > :33:43.we're going to enter an era of very cautious military engagement abroad,
:33:43. > :33:47.and also one where you are going to have to do it within the framework
:33:47. > :33:54.of international law, and frankly, Libya pushed that to the limits.
:33:54. > :33:58.This went beyond Protestant tection of civilians, and it has done some
:33:58. > :34:01.- the protection of civilians and has done some damage. Are you
:34:02. > :34:05.expecting to see more of these interventions? If the occasion
:34:05. > :34:10.arise, yes. Libya was, from the American point of view, pretty
:34:10. > :34:13.cheap, in the amount of military force was used, it was quite
:34:13. > :34:18.minimal, there were no American casualties here. In a sense, after
:34:18. > :34:23.Afghanistan and Iraq, it is a counter example of how intervention
:34:23. > :34:26.is possible at quite a limited price. So I think, again, it
:34:26. > :34:32.encourages the notion that when the situation is ripe, it is a good
:34:32. > :34:36.thing to do. Can I just pick up on the point, I think it is much too
:34:36. > :34:41.early to say, to declare what the price was. In the case of
:34:41. > :34:46.Afghanistan and Iraq, the day that the successful rebels went into
:34:46. > :34:51.Baghdad and Kabul, backed by foreign forces, was not the end, it
:34:52. > :34:57.was, frankly, the end of the beginning. Then followed these long
:34:57. > :35:02.years of difficult reconstruction, of insurgency, of the west feeling
:35:02. > :35:04.committed to a project it had begun and couldn't leave until it was
:35:04. > :35:08.successfully finished, and a democratic state established in
:35:08. > :35:16.those two places. I think it is a little too soon to count our
:35:16. > :35:19.victory yet, or at least put a cost on that victory.
:35:19. > :35:25.No-one is predicting that Libya is going to look like Iraq, and any
:35:25. > :35:29.way, none of us is thinking of putting in gigantic Armed Forces.
:35:29. > :35:36.We have, on the military front, essentially done our part, now we
:35:37. > :35:41.leave it largely to the Libyans. But this has set a precedent, which
:35:41. > :35:45.rather supersedes the precedents of Afghanistan and Iraq, neither of
:35:45. > :35:49.which has been particularly happy? We need to make a distinction
:35:49. > :35:54.between the interventions in Iraq and Afghanistan. Particularly in
:35:54. > :36:00.Iraq, where it was, there involved ground troops, regime change and so
:36:00. > :36:05.on. In this case, it was about protecting people, and also, I
:36:05. > :36:10.think this is much more in line with the examples of Kosovo and
:36:11. > :36:14.Sierra Leone. I think we also need to look back at Bosnia, where
:36:14. > :36:17.interventions didn't take place until very late on. Thousands of
:36:17. > :36:22.people were slaughtered. So in the era of cautiousness, which is
:36:22. > :36:26.correct and right, we do have to make sure, that as the
:36:26. > :36:30.international community we don't let slaughters take place either.
:36:30. > :36:34.If you were watching this in Damascus, or even in the Syrian
:36:34. > :36:37.embassy in London, wouldn't you conclude, well, we know precisely
:36:37. > :36:42.what the limits of western intervention are likely to be now.
:36:42. > :36:46.They are what they can get away with, they think? Hold on a moment,
:36:46. > :36:49.two points, one I think both my colleagues in the panel are correct.
:36:49. > :36:54.As long as we have learned the lessons of Iraq and Afghanistan,
:36:54. > :37:00.and have a low-cost support to a Libyan-led reconstruction, then it
:37:00. > :37:04.is right, the parallel breaks down. It is different. But coming to this
:37:04. > :37:08.second point, of Syria. I mean, frankly, President Assad at the
:37:09. > :37:13.weekend, when he gave a television interview to his domestic TV
:37:13. > :37:17.station, was using the threat of foreign intervention to try to whip
:37:17. > :37:21.up a kind of lame loyalty to his regime. I frankly think it is a
:37:21. > :37:25.very good thing that he knows, and the people of Syria know, there
:37:26. > :37:32.won't be a western intervention, that is not how this is going to
:37:32. > :37:36.get solved. How it now looks that it may start to get solved, is Arab
:37:36. > :37:40.neighbours are coming out against him. Russia and China, who were a
:37:40. > :37:43.little bit on his side, have flipped over to condemning him. It
:37:43. > :37:49.will be that kind of diplomatic pressure and economic isolation
:37:49. > :37:53.which will make change there. just would say, let's not set the
:37:54. > :37:57.standards for intervention so high that there is never another
:37:57. > :38:01.humanitarian intervention. It is very nice we had the Arab League
:38:01. > :38:05.with us, that was accidental, almost, they hate Gaddafi. It is
:38:05. > :38:08.great to get the UN Security Council, but we didn't have the UN
:38:08. > :38:11.Security Council in all the cases in the Balkans and Eastern Europe.
:38:11. > :38:15.If there is a responsibility to protect, it is a moral
:38:15. > :38:20.responsibility, and it doesn't disappear, if you don't happen to
:38:20. > :38:24.have the Arab League or Russia and China on your side. We seem to find
:38:24. > :38:29.ourselves with an unusual sporting phenomenon on our hands, the
:38:29. > :38:32.England cricket team skitled out the Indians to finish a whitewash.
:38:32. > :38:40.They are the best Test Match team in the world. They are an England
:38:40. > :38:50.team that expects to win. Could they be better, could there be a
:38:50. > :38:52.
:38:52. > :38:58.pool of talent that the people who run English cricket haven't tapped.
:38:58. > :39:04.This is A Tale of Two Cities. In one part of Birmingham stands
:39:04. > :39:09.Edgbaston, establishment cricket English-style. The gentile setting
:39:09. > :39:14.for many an epic cricketing contest. And the Stately Home of
:39:14. > :39:24.Warwickshire Closed circuit Club. Just a few miles down the road,
:39:24. > :39:25.
:39:25. > :39:30.cricket Asian-style. A no-frills version of the game, for almost 120
:39:30. > :39:33.years locals in Birmingham have been playing cricket on these
:39:33. > :39:40.pitches. 80 teams meet here every week during the summer, to compete
:39:40. > :39:47.with one of Britain's oldest and biggest Asian leagues. The
:39:47. > :39:53.facilities are basic, no changing rooms, no toil lets. Last year
:39:53. > :40:03.things got so tough the league considered folding. Traditionally
:40:03. > :40:03.
:40:03. > :40:09.English cricket clubs need their own FA tillties if they want ECCB
:40:09. > :40:19.endorsement. Many are using council sites and are missing out on
:40:19. > :40:22.
:40:22. > :40:27.support. Some say that support Why do you think there aren't more
:40:27. > :40:32.Asian players inside the test sites and county cricket? It goes back to
:40:32. > :40:38.the argument that you used to get about black footballers in the 1970,
:40:38. > :40:45.they can't cut it and don't have the aptitude and abilities. We need
:40:45. > :40:51.pioneers to breakthrough the ceiling. The day they are playing
:40:51. > :40:55.in the team, there is a Muslim who doesn't drink or wear any shirt
:40:55. > :41:03.that reflects drinking or gambling, the day we have that kind of player
:41:03. > :41:07.in the English cricket team, we will have a cricket team that
:41:08. > :41:11.reflects the diverse land we have here. What one misses out on is the
:41:11. > :41:16.practical approach that football has, where you have scouts at the
:41:16. > :41:20.lower league games. We have 13 games on, is there anyone from the
:41:20. > :41:25.ECB he can ching out the players? There are players in the league who
:41:25. > :41:29.have the quality to make it into the ranks of world cricket. Nobody
:41:29. > :41:36.is there to spot the players. not? It is a lacking part on behalf
:41:36. > :41:39.of the clubs, they are not looking in this the right places.
:41:39. > :41:44.Asians underrepresented? Look at the current English team there is
:41:44. > :41:47.only one Asian guy there, he's only a fringe player, you telling me
:41:47. > :41:51.there is no other Asian player in the whole of the system that can
:41:51. > :41:57.play with the rest of the England team, of course there is.
:41:57. > :42:01.Talk to the guys here and they will tell thaw English cricket is split
:42:01. > :42:04.between the middle-class white gentile world and the working-class
:42:04. > :42:14.Asian grassroots. Over in Edgbaston, the county
:42:14. > :42:17.
:42:17. > :42:21.Cricket Clbu has been involved in projects to try - Cricket Club has
:42:21. > :42:26.been involved in project to try and be inclusive. I think it is
:42:27. > :42:31.inclusive at all levels. facilities the parks league have
:42:32. > :42:36.are not good, they have no changing rooms? No, that is a big issue. The
:42:36. > :42:40.teams playing in the partial league are not affiliate today the cricket
:42:40. > :42:44.- parks league, are not affiliated to the Cricket Board, but we see it
:42:44. > :42:48.as very important. There are Asian cricket teams in inner cities
:42:48. > :42:53.across England. These sides are playing in Victoria Park in East
:42:53. > :42:56.London, many caught the cricket bug from their parents. We felt, I
:42:56. > :43:01.suppose, for more our parents' country, that is where the passion
:43:01. > :43:06.came from, our parents, and our heros growing up were Pakistani
:43:06. > :43:11.cricketers. It was a passion for cricket, but not necessarily the
:43:11. > :43:14.England team. The ECB recently spent almost �1 million on building
:43:14. > :43:19.cricket facilities in East London, will the efforts help the England
:43:19. > :43:22.team look less white in the future. I hope so, I think the first
:43:22. > :43:26.significant difference will be that we will establish and find good
:43:26. > :43:30.young spinners, there is a lot of evidence we have found already that
:43:30. > :43:35.the kids who are around here are very talented, and particularly in
:43:35. > :43:40.spin bowling. Maybe the real test of success will come, not only when
:43:40. > :43:47.the England team looks more like England, but when there is no
:43:47. > :43:52.longer a need or demand for Asian- only leison. With us is the former
:43:52. > :43:59.editor, and the first British-born Pakistani to play professional
:43:59. > :44:04.cricket in this country. Why you do you think there are not
:44:05. > :44:09.more Asians playing for England? The projects such as Chance To
:44:09. > :44:16.Shine, trying to reignite cricket in state schools. If you look at
:44:16. > :44:19.the county circuit there are more Asian non-professional cricketers.
:44:19. > :44:25.Where I grew up 17 professional cricketers have come out of there.
:44:25. > :44:29.Are you saying it is not a problem? No, over the last five years it has
:44:30. > :44:36.been addressed. The ECB are invest ago lot of money into grassroots
:44:36. > :44:40.sport. Do you think it is a real problem? If you go back to the
:44:40. > :44:44.1950s, when Pakistani immigrants came over, through no fault of
:44:44. > :44:48.their own, they were not educated, they were not literate, they could
:44:48. > :44:53.not speak English, because the Government of Pakistan, has spent
:44:53. > :44:58.most of its money on the military and not on public health and
:44:58. > :45:03.education. There is an enormous cultural divide when they came over.
:45:03. > :45:06.Moreover, they are Muslim, generosity and hospitality are
:45:06. > :45:09.enormous priorities in the cultural values of Islam. They get to this
:45:09. > :45:13.country, they are given housing but they are not welcomed into the
:45:13. > :45:18.Cricket Clubs of this country. And although the gap is narrowing, I
:45:18. > :45:24.don't think it has narrowed quickly enough. Do you think there is, to
:45:24. > :45:30.some degree, I have to venture on this gingerly, there is a rather
:45:30. > :45:35.consciousness separateness in Asian cricket? I set a prime example in
:45:35. > :45:39.Birmingham, a local Cricket Club called Atok Cricket Club, set up in
:45:39. > :45:43.primarily an Asian area, the club itself reflecting the demographics
:45:43. > :45:46.of that particular community. There is an assumption that all Asian
:45:46. > :45:50.cricketers want to play club cricket, or are denied or forced to
:45:50. > :45:53.set up their own Cricket Clubs because they are not welcomed into
:45:53. > :45:57.white clubs. I'm not saying that doesn't happen in some case, what
:45:57. > :46:00.I'm saying is sometimes as local communities, they want to play
:46:01. > :46:03.together, play with their uncles and brothers, and not play the
:46:04. > :46:08.formal level of the game that a club environment would expect.
:46:08. > :46:16.do you make of that point? Because this is Britain, it is not just a
:46:16. > :46:20.question of race and colour, it is also a question of class. Another
:46:20. > :46:24.problem is there is hugely successful England team, wonderful
:46:24. > :46:29.team, presents a cheque for each country, through the broadcasting
:46:29. > :46:32.deals done, of �1.5 million, goes each county club at the start of
:46:32. > :46:37.the year. It is so much easier to go to your local private schools
:46:37. > :46:41.and get your agent in the southern Hemisphere to send you a few
:46:42. > :46:49.players who have European parentage, and to make your county team out of
:46:49. > :46:54.that. I'm afraid British Asians are underrepresented, well under 10%.
:46:54. > :46:58.Although the middle-class Asians have access to cricket, lower,
:46:58. > :47:04.working-class Asians do not have that same opportunity. You talk
:47:04. > :47:07.about people from Pakistani and Bangladeshi backgrounds, there are
:47:07. > :47:11.many different cultural and religious backgrounds from the
:47:11. > :47:15.continent. Supposing there was a proper representation of the
:47:15. > :47:22.communities in the English cricket tome, how would it change?
:47:22. > :47:26.would it change? I think you would find there would be more
:47:26. > :47:30.wristedness in the batting, you might have better one-day players.
:47:30. > :47:34.Because of the ability to hit over the top. We might have more of a
:47:34. > :47:39.chance to win a World Cup, as far as the batting is concerned. You
:47:40. > :47:43.might have interspinners, although Graeme Swann is fine. You would
:47:43. > :47:47.have a greater diversity. The English team is almost entirely
:47:47. > :47:52.private school for batting, and there are only the bowlers come
:47:52. > :47:57.from the state sector. So a diversity, it has to be healthy.
:47:57. > :48:01.Who did you want to play for when you were young? England, when I
:48:01. > :48:06.grew up as 12-year-old, I was spotted in the playground, by
:48:06. > :48:12.chance, it was through that I ended up at Warwickshire. Many would,
:48:12. > :48:16.even now I believe, prefer to play for Pakistan or India or Sri Lanka
:48:16. > :48:21.or wherever s that a correct impression? Yes, I think you're
:48:21. > :48:27.right. There is still strong ties to families and parents who came
:48:27. > :48:31.from south Asia, I think a lot of those children have carried that
:48:31. > :48:34.affinity on. That is self- segregation isn't it? It is, in
:48:34. > :48:39.some ways. If you look at the England players, or the Asian
:48:39. > :48:43.players who have played for England. I think they would all say when
:48:43. > :48:47.they pulled on the England shirt they were proud to play for England.
:48:47. > :48:50.If they played against Pakistan or India it didn't matter they all
:48:50. > :48:56.wanted to perform. In just a minute the morning papers. First, with a
:48:56. > :48:59.story that broke too late for them, is our political correspondent. Who
:48:59. > :49:05.has the latest on News International and Andy Coulson and
:49:05. > :49:07.the hacking story. Just give us the details? The top line of the story
:49:07. > :49:12.is after Andy Coulson left News International, he resigned as
:49:12. > :49:14.editor of the News of the World in January 2007, he continued to
:49:14. > :49:18.receive payments from News International, that overlapped the
:49:18. > :49:23.time at which he started working for David Cameron and the
:49:23. > :49:28.Conservative Party, in July 2007. These payments were part of his
:49:28. > :49:31.sevenance package. I'm told, I have been speaking to a member of the
:49:31. > :49:35.select committee, they want to look into this, and find out whether
:49:35. > :49:39.there was any conditionality to these. Did they require him to do
:49:39. > :49:43.anything, or not do anything that might be pertinent to this. Why is
:49:43. > :49:47.it politically significant? It is polictically significant because
:49:47. > :49:51.Andy Coulson went to work for David Cameron. Some people on the Labour
:49:51. > :49:56.side tonight, are suggesting this may have been a disguised donation
:49:56. > :50:00.to the Conservative Party. But there is another aspect to this as
:50:00. > :50:05.well, that the select committee on you will culture, media and sport,
:50:05. > :50:10.is he continued to get his benefits, it appeared, as an ex-employee,
:50:10. > :50:13.including car and health care, right up to 2009, when he gave
:50:13. > :50:17.evidence to the select committee. Did he disclose that, that is what
:50:17. > :50:27.they will want to look at. three front pages we have at
:50:27. > :50:34.
:50:34. > :50:38.That's all from Newsnight tonight. Colonel Gaddafi told the people of
:50:38. > :50:48.Libya today he would stay to the end. We have reached our's.
:50:48. > :51:09.
:51:09. > :51:13.Goodnight. Good evening. Whilst many northern
:51:13. > :51:16.and western areas stay dry through tonight, heavy rain in the south-
:51:16. > :51:21.east could produce nasty rush hour tomorrow with a risk of localised
:51:21. > :51:26.flooding. The storms working off into the North Sea quickly, rain
:51:26. > :51:31.persistent through the Midland, North West Midland stays fine.
:51:31. > :51:37.Turning wet through South Yorkshire, Londonshire, rain persists, 14 the
:51:37. > :51:42.high. Getting better through the day for East Anglia. Maybe brighter
:51:42. > :51:45.skies across the south coast, Cornwall, Isles of Scilly,
:51:45. > :51:49.predominantly dry throughout. For Wales brightness through the
:51:49. > :51:53.afternoon, especially in western most parts, temperatures peeking at
:51:53. > :51:57.18, 19. In Northern Ireland one or two showers through the day, most
:51:57. > :52:00.having a dry and bright day. Occasional sunshine, rather than
:52:00. > :52:05.clear blue skies, that will be the story for Scotland, a bit of cloud
:52:06. > :52:09.to begin with, some sunshine to begin, equally one or two showers
:52:09. > :52:13.are possible. For northern and western areas the change comes
:52:13. > :52:17.Tuesday into Wednesday. We start to drag in some rain. This is coming
:52:17. > :52:21.in across western parts. Cardiff seeing thundery downpours into the
:52:21. > :52:25.middle part of the week. Elsewhere in southern and eastern areas, it
:52:25. > :52:29.will be dry, brighter and warmer. We have a weakening cold front