:00:11. > :00:15.It's the most dramatic event in the Arab uprising, a genuine revolution.
:00:15. > :00:19.Colonel Gaddafi's 40-year tyranny no longer even extends to his own
:00:19. > :00:26.garden. The rebels stormed into the dictator's compound, but of the man
:00:26. > :00:30.himself, there is no sign. Last night his son and heir apparent was
:00:30. > :00:33.blustering, defiance, tonight he's history, his toys the trophies of
:00:34. > :00:40.victorious rebels. What is to be done with the architects of regime
:00:40. > :00:49.that plundered a country. We're in Tripoli as celebrations
:00:49. > :00:59.begin in the newly renamed Martyr's - martyrs' Square.
:00:59. > :01:02.
:01:02. > :01:06.Where does this leave Lybia, we will hear from our guests. Around
:01:06. > :01:11.4.00pm, Colonel Gaddafi and one of his sons telephoned the Russian
:01:12. > :01:16.President at the international Chess Federation, Gaddafi claimed
:01:16. > :01:20.to be in Tripoli, he said they would fight. An hour later, the
:01:20. > :01:24.rebels had fought their way into his compound in the heart of
:01:24. > :01:31.Tripoli, and he was nowhere to be seen. No indeed was a single member
:01:31. > :01:35.of his famous bodyguard of revolutionary nun, on the cusp of
:01:35. > :01:40.autumn, the Arab Spring had claimed its most dramatic prize.
:01:40. > :01:44.Colonel Gaddafi has not been captured, but does it feel as if it
:01:44. > :01:48.is over? I'm quite sure he's not playing chess tonight, Jeremy,
:01:48. > :01:56.because he must be very unhappy about the scenes that have
:01:56. > :02:06.literally exploded in the centre of this capital. The newly renamed
:02:06. > :02:09.
:02:09. > :02:15.Marters' Square, it is where he - martyrs - Martyr' Square, where he
:02:15. > :02:19.used to speak to the people. And people are gathered there tonight
:02:19. > :02:22.to celebrate the end of his bizarre and brutal hold over the country.
:02:22. > :02:26.The Green Revolution for those people is dead. You can hear the
:02:26. > :02:33.sound of gunfire in the air, the city has been resonating to the
:02:33. > :02:37.sounds of gunfire and other things being fired off for several hours
:02:37. > :02:44.tonight. That is not the seen over the whole of the city, it is also a
:02:44. > :02:47.city of uncertainty, there is still fighting in some areas. There are
:02:47. > :02:49.some areas held by Gaddafi loyalists? Yes, indeed. My
:02:49. > :02:53.colleagues came back from the compound that was taken earlier
:02:53. > :02:57.today. They were warned by the rebels they should leave because
:02:57. > :03:00.there was still some fighting on the streets around the compound.
:03:00. > :03:03.Gaddafi loyalists were still putting up resistance. We have been
:03:03. > :03:07.travelling through this country for the past 48 hours, there were roads
:03:07. > :03:10.we could not take. We were told there was fierce fighting, again
:03:10. > :03:13.between fighters of Colonel Gaddafi and some of the rebels. In other
:03:13. > :03:16.areas there was said to be negotiations between the two sides.
:03:16. > :03:21.The battle isn't over, but certainly the days are counted, and
:03:21. > :03:26.there is not much time left before a new kind of leadership will take
:03:26. > :03:31.charge. But Libyans tell us they can't truly celebrate until they
:03:31. > :03:37.know where Colonel Gaddafi is, and that his regin is well and truly
:03:37. > :03:42.over. It is too early to talk in any detail about what happens next?
:03:42. > :03:46.Well, the next step will be, and we hear from Benghazi, which is the
:03:46. > :03:56.headquarters of the National Transitional Council, the rebel
:03:56. > :03:56.
:03:56. > :04:01.council... Well, evidently we have some problem with the satellite
:04:01. > :04:06.there. Tonight it is scenes of jubilation for the rebels after
:04:06. > :04:10.what was an unpromising morning. The battle for Tripoli is the last
:04:10. > :04:20.act in a six-month struggle, with the compound their new prize. We
:04:20. > :04:21.
:04:21. > :04:28.report on how the day unfolded. More than 48 hours after rebel
:04:28. > :04:34.forces swept into Tripoli, the bat le - battle for the compound
:04:34. > :04:39.continues. It has swung wildly from the opposition, to forces loyal to
:04:39. > :04:47.Colonel Gaddafi. We are going to win, because the people are with us.
:04:47. > :04:52.And then back again, not for the first time, an overhasty victory
:04:52. > :04:55.has been predicted. For the Gaddafi regime, this is the final chapter.
:04:55. > :05:01.But so far the colonel himself is nowhere to be seen. If you know,
:05:01. > :05:06.let me know, we don't know. I don't have a clue. He wasn't in his
:05:06. > :05:13.compound when rebel forces overran it this afternoon.
:05:13. > :05:18.But these scenes must surely be the biggest blow so far.
:05:18. > :05:23.To the four decade grip on fire. The toppling of statues is the
:05:23. > :05:30.traditional accompaniment to the fall of a dictator. This one
:05:30. > :05:38.represents an American fighter jet, a symbol of the colonel's defiance
:05:38. > :05:42.built in 1986. The base at Bab Al- Aziziya is of huge strategic and
:05:42. > :05:45.emotional value to the regime. It was here he stook his stand against
:05:45. > :05:50.the opposition when protest - took his stand against the opposition
:05:50. > :05:55.when protests began six months ago. Now the rebel fighters, none of
:05:55. > :06:02.them professional fighters, have swarmed across his residence and
:06:02. > :06:09.the command centre at the very heart of his centre of power.
:06:09. > :06:15.over the city there are medical facilities, underground bunkers,
:06:15. > :06:20.offices, communication centres. This is really you know the
:06:20. > :06:26.absolute, if one thinks of Gaddafi as an octopus, with a head and
:06:26. > :06:31.multiple leg, this is really the head, this is the centre of all of
:06:31. > :06:39.his intelligence, military and also political capabilities. It is
:06:39. > :06:44.extraordinaryly significant. This compound stretches for over
:06:44. > :06:50.two square miles, yet it seemed to fall with relative ease, to an
:06:50. > :06:53.undisciplined and loosely affiliated group of fighters.
:06:53. > :06:57.I expect a lot of people would have got out in the final hours of
:06:57. > :07:02.fighting, and they will be now doing what? Those who know about
:07:02. > :07:10.urban warfare believe the rebels must have had some help? Over the
:07:10. > :07:14.last few months we and others have been putting teams into Benghazi,
:07:14. > :07:18.some non-military and some military as well. I suspect some Arab
:07:18. > :07:22.nations have been involved, Qatar have been involved in the air
:07:22. > :07:27.campaign. I wouldn't be surprised at all if there were some special
:07:27. > :07:30.forces in the round, call them what you like, Quatari, and maybe other
:07:30. > :07:35.nations who come in to help in this phase.
:07:35. > :07:45.The question now for the rebels and for NATO is how long this next
:07:45. > :07:48.phase will last. After months of stalemate for
:07:48. > :07:52.painfully slow progress, the last few months have been a
:07:52. > :07:56.rollercoaster ride, advances by the rebels and victory almost in their
:07:56. > :08:00.grasp only to have it snatched from them again on a number of occasions.
:08:00. > :08:03.As we speak there are still pockets of fighting going on inside Tripoli,
:08:03. > :08:07.that does look set to continue for a while at least. It is difficult
:08:07. > :08:11.to get a clear picture of who controls what parts of the city.
:08:11. > :08:16.Areas where recent fighting has erupted are marked here in red. But
:08:16. > :08:21.Tripoli is becoming divided, neighbourhood by neighbourhood, as
:08:21. > :08:31.residents form militia's to defend their areas. But where is Colonel
:08:31. > :08:38.Gaddafi? This man, by - bizarrely says he got a phone call from him,
:08:38. > :08:41.he's the head of the International Chess Federation, he said the
:08:41. > :08:46.colonel was safe and well in Tripoli, but the fact is, he hasn't
:08:46. > :08:50.been seen in months. We have all learned in the past few months not
:08:50. > :08:55.to place too much emphasis on any one development or piece of news.
:08:55. > :09:00.We are in the death throws of this regime, it is a good thing we have
:09:00. > :09:03.reached that point, and the people of Libya have fought their way to
:09:03. > :09:06.that point, against violent repression from the regime. It is a
:09:06. > :09:10.difficult and dangerous time, and it is not over yet. Everyone is
:09:10. > :09:13.having to learn to be cautious about their predictions in this
:09:13. > :09:17.conflict, but practically the entire country is now in rebel
:09:17. > :09:21.hands. And for the people who have been fighting this revolution since
:09:21. > :09:29.February, a mood of euphoria and impatience is proving hard to
:09:29. > :09:38.suppress. NATO's spokeswomen, joins us now
:09:38. > :09:42.from Brussels. Is Colonel Gaddafi is in Tripoli do you know? I don't
:09:42. > :09:47.know for a fact where Colonel Gaddafi may be. Judging from the
:09:47. > :09:53.very brief appearance by his son at the dead of night last night, that
:09:53. > :10:01.didn't look to me as if any of the members of this family are in
:10:01. > :10:07.control of the capital, or of the country, or of anything much at all.
:10:07. > :10:13.Of course they are on the run, but they cannot hide. You say they
:10:13. > :10:18.cannot hide, but you are telling us the entire intelligence operation
:10:18. > :10:24.of the world's biggest military alliance does not know where this
:10:24. > :10:29.man is? Colonel Gaddafi and other individuals in the regime are not
:10:29. > :10:32.targets of NATO operations. We're not targeting specific individuals.
:10:32. > :10:38.But it is clearly relevant that you know? We haven't been throughout
:10:38. > :10:43.this campaign. Well, what I think is of the utmost importance to us
:10:43. > :10:47.is our mandate, under the United Nations Security Council resolution,
:10:47. > :10:51.1973, and that is to protect civilians and civilian populated
:10:51. > :10:56.areas from attacks and the threat of attacks. That is what NATO has
:10:56. > :11:03.been doing very effectively. Would it be helpful in that mission in
:11:03. > :11:11.Colonel Gaddafi was captured? would be very helpful if Colonel
:11:11. > :11:16.Gaddafi realised that he is history. He is part of Libya's bloat-
:11:16. > :11:21.splattered past, but he's certainly not part of its future, and he and
:11:21. > :11:27.the remnants of his regime must realise that this conflict must
:11:27. > :11:31.come to an end and they must spare the Libyan people more bloodshed
:11:31. > :11:35.and more suffering. But what we have been seeing, not just in
:11:35. > :11:40.Tripoli, about but across the country s that there is still some
:11:40. > :11:47.shelling, there are still attacks against civilian, only last night
:11:47. > :11:52.we saw the launch of a scud-type missile, from Sirte, Colonel
:11:52. > :11:57.Gaddafi's stronghold, towards the city of Misrata. Can you tell us
:11:57. > :12:03.whether...That Rocket didn't hit anything, but it still shows that
:12:03. > :12:08.they are dangerous and so the NATO mission has to continue until our
:12:08. > :12:12.mandate is fulfilled, until the job is done. We are fully determined to
:12:12. > :12:20.do that. Were there any NATO forces involved in the advance on Tripoli,
:12:20. > :12:26.or indeed in the fighting in Tripoli today? There are no NATO
:12:26. > :12:33.troops on the ground, no NATO forces on the ground. Our mission
:12:33. > :12:37.is to enforce the no-fly zone, the arms embargo, and the protection of
:12:37. > :12:42.civilians and civilian populated areas from the air.
:12:42. > :12:48.And there have been no air strikes against Colonel Gaddafi's compound,
:12:48. > :12:52.we take it then? There have been a lot of air strikes against command
:12:52. > :12:58.and control centres across Libya, including Colonel Gaddafi's
:12:58. > :13:08.compound, in the past five months. We have conducted some 20,000
:13:08. > :13:15.sources in the - sort at thiss in the past few months and struck some
:13:15. > :13:17.significant military targets, and - sorties in the past few months and
:13:17. > :13:22.struck some significant military targets and stop the military
:13:22. > :13:26.machine that gad had formed over the last 40 years and he had been
:13:26. > :13:31.using against his own people. included his house? This was a
:13:31. > :13:37.command and control centre that had been struck, as I say, over the
:13:38. > :13:45.past five months several times. This is a cumulative effect of a
:13:45. > :13:51.very effective NATO campaign. long will this continue? I'm not
:13:51. > :13:55.going to guess how long it will continue. Gaddafi and his regime,
:13:55. > :14:00.whatever remains of it, are unpredictable, and therefore, still
:14:00. > :14:05.dangerous. What is important is there is a commitment to continue
:14:05. > :14:10.implementing the UN mandate, and we will do it, until the job is done.
:14:10. > :14:14.That UN mandate is for the protection of civilians, isn't it?
:14:15. > :14:19.Indeed. So therefore, NATO's responsibility...There Are still
:14:19. > :14:23.attacks and shelling across the country. NATO's responsibility
:14:23. > :14:30.would include protecting civilians if there were any kind of mob
:14:30. > :14:35.justice in the aftermath of the Gaddafi regime? NATO's mandate is
:14:35. > :14:38.very clear, what is also very clear is the responsibility of the
:14:38. > :14:46.National Transitional Council, to ensure that the transition towards
:14:46. > :14:48.a new Libya, towards democracy is done. Not with bloodshed, and
:14:48. > :14:53.violence, through reconciliation, through peace, and through the
:14:53. > :14:59.respect of human rights, and the rule of law. What we have heard and
:14:59. > :15:05.what we have seen, so far, from the NTC, is very welcome, we have seen
:15:05. > :15:09.a very strong commitment to that. Can we take it that were the NTC,
:15:09. > :15:15.for whatever reason, to be unable to control mob justice taking
:15:15. > :15:23.effect, NATO would still act upon its UN mandate and protect
:15:23. > :15:28.civilians from mob justice? We will continue, as I said, to enforce the
:15:28. > :15:34.UN mandate. Now that UN mandate is conducted through an air operation.
:15:34. > :15:39.We will not be able to do everything in Libya from the air,
:15:39. > :15:46.that's very clear. There is a responsibility of all the forces in
:15:46. > :15:50.Libya, on all sides, to ensure that the transition towards a new Libya
:15:50. > :16:00.is done with full respect of the rule of law, and the human rights
:16:00. > :16:01.
:16:01. > :16:07.of the Libyan people. Jean Chretien, the US Ambassador to Libya is in -
:16:07. > :16:10.Gene Cretz, the US calm bass dor to Libya in washing - ambassador to
:16:10. > :16:17.Libya is in Washington and with us now.
:16:17. > :16:21.Do you think we need to stn to protect civilians now? Until we get
:16:21. > :16:25.the signs that the Gaddafi regime is finished, I think the NATO
:16:25. > :16:29.mandate will continue. There is every danger, is there not, that
:16:29. > :16:35.this could go the way of Iraq, where there is a victory over the
:16:35. > :16:38.regime, and then anarchy ensues? You know, I have heard several of
:16:38. > :16:44.our commentators throughout the past few days, throughout the
:16:44. > :16:48.United States, commenting on the possibility that an arky could
:16:48. > :16:53.follow and making all - anarchy could follow and making all kinds
:16:53. > :16:56.of speculation. Let's give the NCT some credit. They started with zero,
:16:56. > :16:59.they inherited a situation from Gaddafi in which there were no
:17:00. > :17:05.institutions and no politics and no sense of civil society. They
:17:05. > :17:14.inherited a country that has been ruled by a man who brought the
:17:14. > :17:18.notion of divide and conquer to unprecedented heights, they have a
:17:18. > :17:23.long road ahead no doubt. But until the current time we have some faith
:17:23. > :17:29.in them, that they will be able to carry out what will be a positive
:17:29. > :17:33.transition. They certainly have done everything, as I said to give
:17:33. > :17:37.us that certain comfort level. There is no doubt the situation
:17:37. > :17:43.they face will be complex, it won't be easy getting rid rave geem. You
:17:43. > :17:49.are not taking down a man - of a regime, you are not just taking
:17:49. > :17:53.down a man but a regime existing for 40 years. Let's not assume
:17:53. > :17:57.there will be anarchy at this stage, when we haven't reached the end
:17:57. > :18:04.game yet. Let's leave aside the interesting comment about regime
:18:04. > :18:08.change there. And let's look at the NTC who were unable to be sure that
:18:08. > :18:13.they had Saif Gaddafi in their custody, as they claimed yesterday,
:18:13. > :18:17.and yet an hour later he popped up giving an impromptu press
:18:17. > :18:20.conference in the middle of the night. Is this an organisation
:18:20. > :18:24.coherently acting? Let's take a look at the challenges they have
:18:24. > :18:30.been up against these six months, and give them some credit for that.
:18:30. > :18:36.There is no doubt, look in this rush into Tripoli, which really no-
:18:36. > :18:41.one expected to happen so quickly, that in the fog of war, there are
:18:41. > :18:45.miscommunications, there are missed steps. They have already
:18:45. > :18:51.acknowledged there was a misstep, they have faced it, with
:18:51. > :18:55.transparency and accountability, let's not just take one instance
:18:55. > :19:02.Asim bowlic of a total incompetence on the part of this council, which
:19:02. > :19:06.has done some amazing work over the last six months to get the
:19:06. > :19:16.rebellion continuing and get them to the point to where they are
:19:16. > :19:17.
:19:17. > :19:21.today. You are in an interesting point, a year ago when you were the
:19:21. > :19:26.ambassador, Gaddafi was an ally, wasn't he? I wouldn't use the word
:19:26. > :19:29.ally, I would say that we made a determination, along with our
:19:29. > :19:34.British colleagues and other members of the international
:19:34. > :19:39.community, that it was in the international community's interest
:19:39. > :19:44.to try to bring a pariah nation, involved in numerous acts of
:19:44. > :19:53.terrorism, and who had been an enemy to many of us over the years
:19:53. > :19:58.to bring them in from the cold and try to reform them. We made efforts
:19:58. > :20:02.on the goal, but we didn't succeed to the best extent we wanted. I
:20:02. > :20:08.wouldn't call them an ally, I would call them a positive development
:20:08. > :20:12.that we had all tried to do, to bring this pariah nation and
:20:12. > :20:17.dictator back into the international fold. We succeeded on
:20:17. > :20:21.some fronts and on some we failed. Can I ask you some specific
:20:21. > :20:24.questions, will the United States seek the extradition of Abdel Baser
:20:24. > :20:29.al-Megrahi? That is a question I would refer you to the Department
:20:29. > :20:35.of Justice on. What would you like to see happen
:20:35. > :20:39.with him? I don't have a particular view. We're focused right now on
:20:39. > :20:45.bringing this regime to, seeing the opposition bring this regime to an
:20:45. > :20:48.end, and then helping the Libyan people, setting them on the path,
:20:48. > :20:52.along with our coalition partners and the international community.
:20:52. > :20:59.Setting them on path towards the democracy and freedom that they
:21:00. > :21:03.deserve after this long, courageous and very, very bloody struggle.
:21:03. > :21:09.If Colonel Gaddafi hadn't been so dangerous, he would have been
:21:09. > :21:13.merely an absurd comical figure, man who renamed the months of the
:21:13. > :21:16.year, published incoherent thoughts in a little green book and ranted.
:21:16. > :21:19.In his time he was dangerous, shipping guns and explosives to
:21:19. > :21:25.terrorists around the world. His regime was the longest lasting in
:21:25. > :21:35.the Arab world, he never achieved his ambition of becoming the new
:21:35. > :21:42.
:21:42. > :21:47.Kur national Nasser. He plundered his country remorselessly.
:21:47. > :21:51.Muhammad Gaddafi seized power in a military coup in 1969.
:21:51. > :21:58.For the era, it was an ordinary coup, but Gaddafi was no ordinary
:21:58. > :22:04.person. Scarred by the defeat of the Arab
:22:04. > :22:07.nations in the six-day war with Israel, Gaddafi was part of a young
:22:07. > :22:14.generation of officers determined to revolutionise the Arab world. In
:22:14. > :22:16.the early 70s, faced with internal dissent, he created revolutionary
:22:16. > :22:22.committees, these exerted repression and surveillance into
:22:22. > :22:27.the work place and the home. At the same time he issued the famous The
:22:27. > :22:32.Green Book, a mixture of Islam, socialism and nationalism, that was
:22:32. > :22:38.the theory. In practice Gaddafi launched a mercurial, unpredictable
:22:38. > :22:44.and ruthless proxy war against the west, that would prove impermable
:22:44. > :22:50.to diplomacy. After an abortive attempt to torpedo the QE2 he armed
:22:50. > :22:57.the IRA, declaring the IRA bombs to be Libyan bombs. He armed and sent
:22:57. > :23:01.troops tofied for Idi Amin, and Charles Taylor in Liberia. But in
:23:01. > :23:06.the 1980s, Libya's action against the west refocused, it would be
:23:06. > :23:11.less by proxy, more by direct intervention.
:23:11. > :23:19.Libyan diplomats shot and killed PC Yvonne Fletcher in London in 1984.
:23:19. > :23:22.Libyan agents bombed a nightclub in Berlin in 1986. In response,
:23:22. > :23:27.President Reagan ordered the ill- fated air strike on Gaddafi's
:23:27. > :23:32.compound. The leader escaped, thanks to a warning from Italian
:23:32. > :23:36.politicians. On the 21st of December 1988, Libyan agents
:23:36. > :23:41.perpetrated the biggest mass murder in British history. The Pan Am
:23:41. > :23:46.flight to New York was blown up in midair, killing all 259 people on
:23:46. > :23:50.board, and 11 in the town of Lockerbie. But history was about to
:23:50. > :23:54.change for Colonel Gaddafi. The end of the Cold War paved the way for
:23:54. > :23:58.UN sanctions, which during the 1990s, began to strangle the Libyan
:23:58. > :24:04.economy. Meanwhile, the Libyan elite began to realise what
:24:04. > :24:09.luxuries might be on offer for an oil-rich country in a globalised
:24:09. > :24:13.and oil hungry world. In 1999 Libya surrendered two suspects for trial
:24:13. > :24:18.over the Lockerbie bombing. One, Abdel Baser al-Megrahi, was
:24:18. > :24:23.convicted. In 2003, after the fall of Saddam Hussein, Gaddafi made a
:24:23. > :24:29.startling, turn, he gave up weapons of mass destruction, and came in to
:24:29. > :24:35.the western fold. On the frontline of the reproachment, was Tony Blair,
:24:35. > :24:41.a key figure in the background, Al- Saiff Gaddafi, his son, the benefit
:24:41. > :24:45.for Britain was clear, oil and trade. BP garnered a major deal.
:24:45. > :24:51.The Gaddafi's clan's aim was also clear, they wanted respectability,
:24:51. > :24:58.and they wanted the return of Al- Megrahi. In 2007, in the last days
:24:58. > :25:08.of the Blair administration, they got both. Al-Saiff is committed to
:25:08. > :25:08.
:25:08. > :25:13.resolving contentious, and domestic issues, through diplomacy. Saif was
:25:13. > :25:23.feteed at the London School of Economics. In theory, Libya is the
:25:23. > :25:27.most democratic state in the world. Al-Megrahi was released.
:25:28. > :25:36.And then, on the 14th of February this year, history turned again.
:25:36. > :25:39.The one force nobody had counted on, not the CIA, MI6, or the LSE, the
:25:39. > :25:43.Libyan people rose up and said no more.
:25:43. > :25:48.Tonight, the world is facing a future without Muhammad Gaddafi,
:25:48. > :25:57.the man who dreamed of revolution across the Arab world, finally gets
:25:57. > :26:03.to see one. With us are the Libyan rebels' man in London, and a
:26:03. > :26:06.specialist in Middle East and Libyan affairs, and the former Home
:26:06. > :26:11.Office Minister. How was it that Colonel Gaddafi was
:26:11. > :26:17.able to hold power for 40 years? combination of things. The fact
:26:17. > :26:23.that he was head ago country which is very, very wealthy. He had a lot
:26:23. > :26:28.of money, he could buy his way and pay for a lot of his mistakes. He
:26:28. > :26:33.used a combination of corruption and coercion, he decimated all
:26:33. > :26:39.political opposition from early on, he disband political parties and
:26:39. > :26:42.imprisoned political critics. He was very brutal a sheer brutal
:26:42. > :26:51.dictator. Do you find it embarrassing that your Government
:26:51. > :26:54.embraced this man? I'm not embraced. It was almost an embrace when Tony
:26:54. > :26:58.Blair shook his hand? I don't know what his personal relationship was
:26:58. > :27:02.like with Gaddafi. I do know it was very important to persuade the
:27:02. > :27:06.Libyans and Gaddafi in particular, to give up those programme that is
:27:06. > :27:11.he had to try to develop nuclear weapons and biological weapons and
:27:11. > :27:19.so on. If that hadn't been achieved, well one wonders what the situation
:27:19. > :27:24.would be like in Tripoli today. This isn't going to be over, until
:27:24. > :27:30.he is some how captured or killed or something? Absolutely. He still
:27:30. > :27:34.has a very strong base of loyalists. We have seen how today, in fact,
:27:34. > :27:39.has captured the incredible drama of the last six months. You say he
:27:39. > :27:43.has a very strong base of loyalist, I refer you to the pictures on the
:27:43. > :27:47.wall behind u the scenes of jubilation in the centre of Tripoli
:27:47. > :27:52.tonight, does that look like a bunch of people loyal to a
:27:52. > :27:55.dictator? Not at all. But it is, I'm afraid a reality, loyalists
:27:55. > :28:02.which are infiltrated within the vast majority of the Libyan
:28:02. > :28:07.populations. We have seen, in fact, you know, when the rebels reach the
:28:07. > :28:11.Green Square yesterday, quite easily, the resurgence of very
:28:11. > :28:19.bitter infighting by snipers, pockets of resistance, and indeed,
:28:19. > :28:25.on going battles. This is something which is bound to be carrying on,
:28:25. > :28:29.I'm afraid. How do you read that analysis? Out of reality, out of
:28:30. > :28:35.this world, a few hundred snipers and mercenaries, does not equate to
:28:35. > :28:40.a wide base of loyalist, that is absolutely ridiculous. By the way
:28:40. > :28:44.tonight, even Gaddafi's own home town, Sirte, his own tribe, are now
:28:44. > :28:50.negotiating to come over to the revolution, and they totally
:28:50. > :28:53.disowned him. This man has no real support or loyalty in Libya
:28:53. > :28:57.whatsoever. He has used thousands and thousands of mercenaries and
:28:57. > :29:02.snipers, we have arrested many of them. That is where he drew his
:29:02. > :29:06.strength over the last few months. I would love to be enthusiastic
:29:06. > :29:11.about this revolution, and the scenes of jubilations are entirely
:29:12. > :29:17.justified tonight. But what I'm trying to say is let's not forget
:29:17. > :29:21.that the Libyan society is deeply entrenched with all sorts of
:29:21. > :29:26.differences, tribal rivalries, geographical rivalries, ideolgical
:29:26. > :29:30.rivalries, and in all sorts of conflicts you have a build up of
:29:30. > :29:34.grievance, resentment, a desire for revenge and retaliation, this won't
:29:34. > :29:39.be sorted out overnight. It is an important point to make. But the
:29:40. > :29:45.young men we have seen storming the Gaddafi compound today are, in the
:29:45. > :29:49.end, young men with gun, and Libya today, Libya's population today is
:29:49. > :29:53.amongst possibly the most heavily armed in the world. And one of the
:29:53. > :29:58.more youthful too. If either of those things is true,
:29:58. > :30:02.we're in there for quite a long time to come aren't we? I think we
:30:02. > :30:08.are going to be in there for a very long time to come. I'm not sure
:30:08. > :30:15.what it will look like, but the most pernicious legacy that Gaddafi
:30:15. > :30:22.leaves Libya with is the lack of a viable and working political system.
:30:22. > :30:26.So one has to be created. As was said, there is a power vacuum there,
:30:26. > :30:32.there is a potential for disaster. So we have to do everything we can
:30:32. > :30:36.to try to help the construction of a democratic system of Government
:30:36. > :30:43.there, that people can identify with, that is not going to be easy,
:30:43. > :30:49.because for 42 years he has ruled it as a despot.
:30:49. > :30:55.When you look at the transitional council, does everybody on it want
:30:55. > :30:58.the same kind of Libya? Absolutely. And those fighters as well. Those
:30:58. > :31:05.freedom fighters. And there is absolutely unanimity on what type
:31:05. > :31:09.of Libya we want. But unanimity beyond, let's get rid of Gaddafi?
:31:09. > :31:12.Beyond that. We have a vision, we have a clear road map, we have a
:31:12. > :31:18.determination, we want exactly the opposite of what Gaddafi stood for
:31:18. > :31:21.over the last 42 years. And by the way the kind of divisions that were
:31:21. > :31:25.just highlighted, ethnic, ideolgical, tribal, deep-rooted
:31:25. > :31:29.division, I think she's coming from neighbouring Algeria, it shows she
:31:29. > :31:37.knows very little about Libya. I'm disappointed and sorry to know, if
:31:37. > :31:41.you are an expert on Libya you know very little. Whoever pays you for
:31:42. > :31:48.your expertise they are not getting their money's worth. We don't have
:31:48. > :31:53.religious or sectarian divisions, we don't have ethnic divisions.
:31:53. > :31:58.tribal divisions? The few tribes. Not even between dissidents in both
:31:58. > :32:02.the west and the east, isn't it true your headquarters in Benghazi
:32:02. > :32:05.and most of the fighters have come from the west? The people of the
:32:05. > :32:11.east are the most determined people that Libya will be a united country,
:32:11. > :32:14.with Tripoli as the capital. Tribes in Libya are a social institution
:32:14. > :32:21.rather than a political institution. We are not Iraq, we are Somalia, we
:32:21. > :32:27.are a totally different society. We are homogenius, in North Africa and
:32:27. > :32:31.a Mediterranean society. Let her have her say? With all due respects
:32:31. > :32:35.your comments are very much a cheap shot. What you have been saying
:32:35. > :32:41.about the composition of the Libyan society exposes your utter
:32:41. > :32:44.ignorance or your denial of Libyan history, I'm afraid to say.
:32:44. > :32:49.Ignorance of my own country. are in denial, we have seen the
:32:49. > :32:52.revolution starting in Benghazi, in the east of the country, the group
:32:53. > :32:58.which proved to be the most challenging to the Gaddafi regime
:32:58. > :33:03.came from the south west, we are already seeing conflicts and all
:33:03. > :33:06.sorts of conflicts between the rebels. People fighting on the same
:33:06. > :33:09.side against Gaddafi saying the south west, the rebels in the south
:33:09. > :33:15.west are now claiming to have done most of the fighting and hence
:33:15. > :33:19.should be in charge of the country, they are already vying for the
:33:19. > :33:24.revenues. There is no fighting in the south west. As much as in the
:33:24. > :33:30.east and the west and North West. You are saying that there is no
:33:30. > :33:36.guarantee at all that there will be any kind of unity once Gaddafi is
:33:36. > :33:41.finally got rid of, that it would be hard to make any kind of
:33:41. > :33:43.political consensus? Absolutely. What has undone the Gaddafi regime
:33:43. > :33:50.ultimately is a combination of NATO air power and rebel forces fighting
:33:50. > :33:55.on the ground. And there is no guarantee that the rebels will come
:33:55. > :33:58.to a unanimous decision as to who should run Libya. Let's not forget
:33:58. > :34:03.that ultimately Libya is a fairly recent creation, and there is no
:34:04. > :34:08.guarantee it will remain a single entity. It is unarguable that
:34:09. > :34:12.before NATO intervened, the rebels were on the run, that is why NATO
:34:12. > :34:17.intervened. NATO has made this, does it not have a responsibility
:34:17. > :34:21.some how to continue to make sure it has a peaceful end? I'm not sure.
:34:21. > :34:24.Because the great fashion now, of course, is to ensure that the UN
:34:24. > :34:28.and the Arab League backs everything. I think one of the
:34:28. > :34:35.things that comes out of this Libyan, these extraordinary things
:34:36. > :34:40.going on in Libya, is how useless the Arab League is. Tell us
:34:40. > :34:44.something new? It has to be repeated. Only one country, Qatar,
:34:44. > :34:49.sent any planes in to help. And apparently they ran out of fuel and
:34:49. > :34:52.they weren't used. Including munitions. I think it is
:34:52. > :34:56.extraordinary that people believe that there aren't going to be any
:34:56. > :35:00.problems in the future. I think all of these dictators in the Middle
:35:00. > :35:03.East will be dreadfully worried about what they see going on in
:35:03. > :35:08.Libya tonight. Thank you all very much indeed
:35:08. > :35:11.tonight. With its leader now AWOL, but certainly not in control. The
:35:11. > :35:15.plan is for the so-called National Transitional Council to pave the
:35:15. > :35:19.way for a democratically elected Government. But the chaos of regime
:35:19. > :35:25.change can also leave a vacuum, capable of being filled, as it was
:35:25. > :35:29.in Iraq, by extremist groups. NATO have already observed so-called
:35:29. > :35:39.flickers of dald in the rebel group. We will discuss the potential risks
:35:39. > :35:44.
:35:44. > :35:48.ahead in a moment. Gaddafi loved the desert, he used
:35:48. > :35:55.his massive oil wealth to expand his influence from Libya to
:35:55. > :35:59.surrounding desert states and across Africa. He was a mecurial,
:35:59. > :36:03.pragmatic lead, devoid of too many principle, but there is one thing,
:36:03. > :36:08.his opposition to Islamic groups, like the Libyan Islamic Fighting
:36:08. > :36:13.Group determined to overthrow him. Now with Gaddafi's rule at an end,
:36:13. > :36:18.it is thought Islamic groups will try to assert their influence.
:36:18. > :36:21.were working for the overthrow of Gaddafi for two to three decades,
:36:21. > :36:26.now they will feel they are in extremely strong position, and they
:36:26. > :36:29.will be pushing for their own role within the transitional council.
:36:29. > :36:36.Gaddafi played many different roles on the international stage. When I
:36:36. > :36:41.met him, or at lost managed to get close to him, with a Newsnight team
:36:41. > :36:44.a few years ago, he was being courted by many Governments. I was
:36:44. > :36:49.assured that a man, once responsible for so much terror, had
:36:49. > :36:54.changed his way. Britain was told this is a new Gaddafi, but there
:36:54. > :36:58.are a whole raft of issues to be discussed. It is thought as part of
:36:58. > :37:01.the rehabilitation process at the time, Gaddafi was keen to offer the
:37:01. > :37:05.west information about Islamist groups. Whether his information was
:37:05. > :37:08.taken seriously is another matter. It was a rather curious
:37:08. > :37:14.relationship, that Gaddafi wanted to be accepted again in western
:37:14. > :37:18.countries, and he was viscerally anti-Al-Qaeda, so wanted to provide
:37:18. > :37:22.information to Security Services on Al-Qaeda. This is the man who had
:37:22. > :37:27.funded the IRA, and behind the red army faction, and the red brigade
:37:27. > :37:30.and some of the Palestinian groups. It would be extremely unlikely that
:37:30. > :37:33.our Security Services would have taken what he said seriously. They
:37:33. > :37:38.would have been interested to hear what he had to say, but they would
:37:38. > :37:43.have taken it with buckets of salt. Gaddafi's main obsession was Africa.
:37:43. > :37:49.He wanted to use his power and oil wealth to promote his fanciful
:37:49. > :37:57.ideas across the continent. There was a real push in the late 1970
:37:57. > :38:02.and early 1980, to propagandaise the green book around Africa,
:38:02. > :38:06.especially in west and Central Africa, there are Green Book Clubs
:38:06. > :38:11.set up. Students out of university were recruited by Gaddafi agents,
:38:11. > :38:18.and taken for training to Tripoli and Sirte, and then inducted into
:38:18. > :38:25.what he regarded as his brand of Green Revolution the, a
:38:25. > :38:31.reinterpretation of Islam. Now it seems as if his demise will spread
:38:31. > :38:36.reprecussions on African states T could give power to an Islamic
:38:36. > :38:40.group causing concern across The Sahara.
:38:40. > :38:48.Al-Qaeda started in Algeria, but operated beyond the vast tracks of
:38:48. > :38:50.the Sahara desert, through to Male, and Niger, and the Governments and
:38:50. > :38:56.intelligence agencies in those countries have been trying to fight
:38:56. > :39:00.back with American help. Now there are queers that AQIM will move into
:39:00. > :39:05.Libya to try to take advantage of any power vacuum. That is their
:39:05. > :39:08.intention. An AQIM video, posted earlier this month, called for
:39:08. > :39:12.action, and included a statement from the military board, that
:39:12. > :39:17.seeking peaceful change of leaders is like giving aspirin to a cancer
:39:17. > :39:22.patient. AQIM have been linked to kidnappings and attacks across The
:39:22. > :39:26.Sahara. Now it seems they will try to take advantage of a power vacuum
:39:26. > :39:31.in Libya. But the extent of the threat they pose is matter of
:39:31. > :39:34.debate. They are stuck in the countries where weak governance and
:39:34. > :39:38.lack of security institutions make it reasonably easy for them to
:39:38. > :39:44.operate. But in most of what they are doing it is limited to what
:39:44. > :39:50.they can do, by is opportunistic kidnappings and the occasional raid.
:39:50. > :39:56.I question whether they have the capacity to go much beyond that.
:39:56. > :40:01.the national council, transitional council cannot contain things, I
:40:01. > :40:05.think AQIM will become much, much more powerful within the region,
:40:05. > :40:12.and that's one reason why the Algerian Government was continuing
:40:12. > :40:16.to support Gaddafi, because it feared that the fall of Gaddafi's
:40:16. > :40:21.regime would open up the opportunities for smaller, nimble
:40:21. > :40:25.groups, such as AQIM, to move in and run operations across the
:40:25. > :40:30.region. Already it seems the upheavals in
:40:30. > :40:34.Libya could be helping AQIM, there are claims they have received
:40:34. > :40:42.convoys of weapons, including missiles plundered from Gaddafi's
:40:42. > :40:47.Awan donned arms cachets. Last week police in Niger said they seized 60
:40:47. > :40:52.vehicles and a helicopter that most probably came from Libya. Is this a
:40:52. > :40:55.sign Jihadists are getting more organised? It is possible the
:40:55. > :41:00.insecurities throughout North Africa may create a more organised
:41:00. > :41:04.Jihadist challenge across the region. It hasn't happened yet. I
:41:04. > :41:08.suspect it won't. Although there is a lot of places to hide in North
:41:08. > :41:14.Africa, the societies in North Africa, whether Tunisia or the new
:41:15. > :41:19.Libya, are not sympathetic to Jihadism in the way that Lebanon or
:41:19. > :41:23.Pakistan is. They don't really have a sea in which to swim, where the
:41:23. > :41:28.water is really warm enough for them. Gaddafi made it impossible
:41:28. > :41:31.for Islamic groups to operate in Libya. Now it depends on the
:41:31. > :41:35.National Transitional Council to ensure that there is no power
:41:35. > :41:40.vacuum, with extremists trying to exploit it.
:41:40. > :41:43.With us now, a former head of the Libyan militant organisation, known
:41:43. > :41:48.as the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group. Who resigned his position
:41:48. > :41:52.after the September 11th attacks and now works to dissuade his
:41:52. > :41:57.former comrades from violence. Also with us John Hamilton a director of
:41:57. > :42:01.the group Cross Border Information. How worried are you about the
:42:01. > :42:06.possible emergence of radical groups in Libya now? The presence
:42:06. > :42:11.of the Islamists in Libya now, it is obvious and clear for everybody.
:42:11. > :42:16.Talking about violent radicals, I'm still not comfortable to say they
:42:16. > :42:19.are an eminent threat. There is a risk, of course, because now we
:42:19. > :42:26.have the guns in the hands of everybody, including young people
:42:26. > :42:29.and the Islamists. Most of them are my ex-colleagues, we fought
:42:29. > :42:34.together 20 years ago in Afghanistan against the Soviet
:42:34. > :42:39.Union, we gave Colonel Gaddafi hard time in the 1990, and I was a
:42:40. > :42:45.mediator from 2007-2010, for reconciliation process. These are
:42:45. > :42:49.the same guys participating with the rebels and with the leadership.
:42:49. > :42:54.NTC. I'm comfortable to say, they say they will stick with the
:42:54. > :42:59.political process. I trust the leaders, I put it this way, my ex-
:42:59. > :43:03.colleagues. I'm not sure about the young people now recruited to the
:43:03. > :43:10.cause recently. How important was Colonel Gaddafi in keeping these
:43:10. > :43:15.radical groups in check? I think the co-operation which he had with
:43:15. > :43:19.western Governments was strongly appreciated by, and I have spoken
:43:20. > :43:26.to military people who have said that, and if you look at the clear
:43:26. > :43:32.relationship, which someone like Costas Custas had with our
:43:32. > :43:35.authorities, - Mousa Koussa, had the authorities that shows the
:43:35. > :43:40.point. Can anyone less than a dictator achieve the same results?
:43:40. > :43:48.I believe they can. The western countries. I think what we are
:43:48. > :43:54.seeing is a collapse of ten years of attempting to fight Islamic
:43:54. > :43:59.extremism by supporting military dictators, all you do is encourage
:43:59. > :44:03.extremism. You mustn't equate the Libyan Islamists with Jihadist, if
:44:03. > :44:08.they have got a chance to co- operate in their own democracies
:44:08. > :44:14.they are going to be less inclined to create problems for us, because
:44:14. > :44:19.we are not going to be supporting their oppressors. I think this
:44:19. > :44:22.point is very important. From my experience, the most successful
:44:22. > :44:25.approach now, with regards to fighting against terrorism and
:44:25. > :44:28.extremism, including radical approach. It is the western
:44:28. > :44:32.approach based on the liberal approach. This is the most
:44:32. > :44:36.successful one, it is a strategic one. You are not saying that you
:44:36. > :44:41.hope it is true but on the basis of your experience in dealing with
:44:41. > :44:46.your former colleagues? I'm aware of what is going on in Europe and
:44:46. > :44:51.Arab countries. For me I have very good experience inside. Why does it
:44:51. > :44:57.work? As a UK example, London in the mid-1990, it was the London
:44:57. > :45:04.stand. I know more than the people what was going on? You were part of
:45:04. > :45:10.it? Not necessarily, it was against Colonel Gaddafi. Trust me on this,
:45:10. > :45:13.the approach based on liberal value, within an open, liberal society, is
:45:13. > :45:19.very effective and useful. Every party brought to justice here in
:45:19. > :45:24.the UK. I know some people disagree, they know exactly this is one of
:45:24. > :45:28.the most just systems existing in the UK. That is why we have a lot
:45:28. > :45:30.of radicals in the UK not involved in terrorism. Does the National
:45:30. > :45:34.Transitional Council seem to you that sort of organisation creating
:45:34. > :45:37.that kind of society? That is certainly what they are saying.
:45:37. > :45:45.Exactly. That is what they are saying. I think they are genuine
:45:45. > :45:51.about that? I think the reaction from what's gone on before is going
:45:51. > :45:58.to be a very strong one. They have got every incentive to try to
:45:58. > :46:01.create a society which incorporates most of the elements they have got.
:46:01. > :46:07.They can attempt to co-operate Tunisia, they are way behind, but
:46:07. > :46:13.they have a few examples to follow. From my own experience, the British
:46:13. > :46:18.model and the Netherlands is the most comprehensive approach, based
:46:18. > :46:23.on liberal values towards extremism and radicalism, which is very
:46:23. > :46:27.successful. I know it is very hard to transfer the whole project to
:46:27. > :46:31.Libya because we haven't got the infrastructure for democracy for
:46:31. > :46:36.the last 20 years. I believe it is doable. We need to engage with the
:46:36. > :46:39.people. The first thing we need to do, behave or you will be
:46:39. > :46:49.criminalised. Nobody in Lybia, we need to be fair about this, like
:46:49. > :46:55.the system here. There is a freedom, but don't try to drive legitimacy
:46:55. > :47:04.based on your participation in the war of freedom. That's all from us
:47:04. > :47:09.tonight, goodnight until tomorrow Good evening. A damp, fairly misy
:47:09. > :47:13.night for many tonight. Even if you don't see the rain. As you go into
:47:13. > :47:16.tomorrow, unlike today, are likely to hit the west in the form of
:47:16. > :47:21.heavy and thundery showers. Brightness inbetween. Further east
:47:21. > :47:24.the morning mist and low cloud breaks up, a good deal of sunshine
:47:24. > :47:28.across eastern England. Showers getting into the North West and the
:47:28. > :47:32.Midlands for the second half of the day. Many in the east will stay dry,
:47:32. > :47:35.significantly warmer than this afternoon. A good five to eight
:47:35. > :47:38.degrees. South-West England and through Wales will have a
:47:38. > :47:42.scattering of showers throughout the day. Some particularly during
:47:42. > :47:47.the afternoon will be heavy and thundery. They will be hit and miss,
:47:47. > :47:51.some will be dry. Showers also for Northern Ireland,
:47:51. > :47:58.some of the heaviest first thing, the slow moving the ones in the
:47:58. > :48:03.afternoon. Winds light. Same too across Scotland, some will stay dry,
:48:03. > :48:08.more persistent rain in Shetland. As we look at the forecast charts
:48:08. > :48:11.for Wednesday into Thursday, you will notice the showers become more
:48:11. > :48:15.ref lant, that continued risk goes across southern parts of the
:48:15. > :48:19.country as well. The weather front we saw with a cluster of showers on
:48:19. > :48:22.Wednesday become as more coherent feature to the east for Thursday.