:00:08. > :00:13.He's at large somewhere, and until he as found, with or without a
:00:13. > :00:17.pulse, the Libyan revolution is unfinished, his 40-year rule is
:00:17. > :00:20.unquestionably over, but the rebels need proof. In a city with no
:00:20. > :00:25.single overall control, it is the absence of Colonel Gaddafi which
:00:25. > :00:30.drives on the uprising. Our correspondent has been on the
:00:30. > :00:35.streets of Tripoli. Don't be fooled by all of this celebration. Just
:00:35. > :00:40.take a look at what lies on the ground here. All of these bullet
:00:40. > :00:45.casings. This place exploded in celebration, literally.
:00:45. > :00:49.Women were prominent in the early uprisings in Egypt and Tunisia, but
:00:49. > :00:53.they have been almost invisible in Libya. What will be the fruit of
:00:53. > :00:56.the Arab Spring for half the population of Arabia.
:00:56. > :01:00.This is what national service used to mean. It is another cup of tea
:01:00. > :01:10.all together in David Cameron's scheme. You lot try this one, that
:01:10. > :01:14.
:01:14. > :01:19.Colonel Gaddafi popped up in a rambling broadcast last night,
:01:19. > :01:23.claiming he wasn't in hiding, merely making a tactical move,
:01:23. > :01:27.presumably much like Mussolini's tactical move to a convenient
:01:27. > :01:31.lampost. His rule in Libya may be over, but his presence or absence
:01:31. > :01:35.still haunts the country. There is a bountyee of over $1 million on
:01:35. > :01:41.his head, dead or alive, and a promise of a pardon for anyone who
:01:41. > :01:46.kills or captures him, until he's taken, the revolution is then
:01:46. > :01:55.unfinished. That hasn't stopped the celebrations in the centre of
:01:55. > :02:01.Tripoli, where we have been taking in this the mood. This is Green
:02:01. > :02:06.Square, renamed martters' square, for all those who lost their lives.
:02:06. > :02:12.It is a scene of celebration, the families are coming out waving the
:02:12. > :02:15.old Libyan trib colour, replacing Colonel Gaddafi's flag. - tri-
:02:15. > :02:20.colour, replacing Colonel Gaddafi's flag. Don't be fooled, just look at
:02:20. > :02:24.what lies on the ground here, all of the bullet casings, this place
:02:24. > :02:27.exploded in celebration, literally they have been firing off every
:02:27. > :02:32.possible weapon, including anti- aircraft fire today, to show to
:02:32. > :02:36.Libyans and to the world that the Libyans have ended Colonel
:02:36. > :02:41.Gaddafi's 42-year rule. Let's take you into the square. Because look
:02:41. > :02:47.at the scaffolding, they were already preparing to mark Colonel
:02:47. > :02:52.Gaddafi's 42 years in power. This is where the stage was going to
:02:52. > :02:57.celebrate. What lies on the ground was a huge portrait of the
:02:57. > :03:01.revolutionary leader, it now lies charred in ruins. They tore it
:03:01. > :03:07.apart, and want to say that Libya is free and they have been chanting
:03:07. > :03:11.that Colonel Gaddafi is dead. But the big question is, where is he?
:03:11. > :03:16.The rebels say they have offered a reward if they can get him dead or
:03:16. > :03:20.alive. That's not stopping them from celebrating. Just look. Listen
:03:20. > :03:23.to the deafening sound, these were the rampart where is Colonel
:03:23. > :03:28.Gaddafi used to come to the square to address his people, the masses,
:03:28. > :03:31.he said, who loved him. He said don't believe the world, my people
:03:31. > :03:35.love me. You will remember those speeches, those iconic speeches of
:03:35. > :03:41.this leader who has totally dominated Libya for the past 42
:03:41. > :03:45.years, and imposed his highly personalised rule, his ideas, which
:03:45. > :03:52.verged on the outright bizarre sometimes, and tried to have a
:03:52. > :03:56.revolution that actually people here did not have support.
:03:56. > :04:00.That was earlier in Tripoli. The rebels, if we should still call
:04:00. > :04:05.them that, believe that Gaddafi is still hiding out somewhere in the
:04:05. > :04:08.city. But there is no certainty of his early capture, in the meantime,
:04:08. > :04:17.can the National Transitional Council impose their authority on
:04:18. > :04:24.the country. The battle for Tripoli enters its
:04:24. > :04:32.fourth day, it is not over yet. On Sunday, fighters loyal to Colonel
:04:32. > :04:38.Gaddafi had seemed to melt away. But they have reappeared, and the
:04:38. > :04:42.rebels are meeting fierce and stubborn resistance.
:04:42. > :04:46.Many of these fighters believe the colonel is still somewhere in
:04:46. > :04:53.Tripoli. The rebel leadership has offered more than a million dollars
:04:53. > :04:58.for him, dead or alive, a tempting reward for guys like these, but
:04:58. > :05:02.they would probably be happy to do it for free. This is the house of
:05:02. > :05:08.Gaddafi, and we are the revolution, we are in the house of Gaddafi,
:05:08. > :05:11.this is the endpoint. Day after they took the former dictator's
:05:11. > :05:16.sprawling compound, rebels are still pouring over the spoils. But
:05:16. > :05:21.it isn't secure. Even here, loyalist snipers have still been
:05:21. > :05:25.holding out from deep inside. There was good news, though, for the 35
:05:25. > :05:29.foreigner, most of them journalist, who had been held prisoner inside
:05:29. > :05:35.the Rixos Hotel. After five day, their guards, turned captors,
:05:35. > :05:41.finally let them go. I was so worried about you guy, it was the
:05:41. > :05:46.most awful thing. Most of Libya's main towns and cities are now under
:05:46. > :05:49.rebel control. Only Sirte, Gaddafi's home town, and Sabha, in
:05:50. > :05:54.the south, are offering serious resistance to the opposition.
:05:54. > :05:58.Inside Tripoli itself, there was still shooting coming from inside
:05:58. > :06:03.the colonel's Bab Al-Aziziya compound. To the south, pro-
:06:03. > :06:09.Government forces have been firing in the neighbourhoods here. While
:06:09. > :06:13.the rebel fighters are busy trying to consolidate the gains made in
:06:13. > :06:16.the last few days. It is the politicians who have the more
:06:16. > :06:20.daunting task trying to store a sense of normality, and trying to
:06:20. > :06:23.bring together all the various facets of Libyan society. But at
:06:23. > :06:27.the moment the leaders of the National Transitional Council
:06:27. > :06:33.aren't even in Tripoli yet. The interim Prime Minister was in Paris
:06:33. > :06:40.w a view to releasing some much needed funds. Our work on the
:06:40. > :06:45.ground is not finished, and the biggest battle has not started yet,
:06:45. > :06:50.it is the battle of reconstruction. The priority is stability and
:06:50. > :06:54.security. There is a vast amount to do, basic services, hospital, all
:06:54. > :06:58.have been hard hit by six months of conflict. But rebuilding Libya will
:06:58. > :07:02.be difficult, while the new Government is still essentially in
:07:02. > :07:08.exile. They have to get rid of Gaddafi and
:07:08. > :07:15.his sons, and his resistance in the area, that is when it will be safe
:07:15. > :07:20.for them to go to Tripoli. But that will not happen until the security
:07:20. > :07:23.is guaranteed and until the situation is guaranteed that they
:07:23. > :07:27.can go in there and function from there.
:07:27. > :07:32.But the longer they wait, the more potentially dangerous the situation
:07:32. > :07:41.becomes. Tripoli is awash with armed men, who don't answer to any
:07:41. > :07:45.unified command structure. The fear is it could turn into a vicious
:07:45. > :07:47.circle.The Rebels can't secure the peace without establishing a
:07:47. > :07:52.functioning and inclusive Government that brings in all the
:07:52. > :07:55.shades of opinion in Libya, the tribe, the region al differences,
:07:55. > :08:00.the ideolgical differences between Islamists and nationalists. Libya
:08:00. > :08:04.is one of the most diverse societies in North Africa. Multiple
:08:04. > :08:08.divisions. Libya is a construct of the early
:08:08. > :08:13.20th century, when the Italians brought together the three
:08:13. > :08:17.provinces. They were brought into a single
:08:17. > :08:20.colony, it is a complicated patchwork of tribal affiliations,
:08:20. > :08:25.across the country, from Colonel Gaddafi's tribe with the power base
:08:25. > :08:30.in the town of Sirte, to the powerful tribes around the oil
:08:30. > :08:34.refiners at Zawiya. It is not that simple. In Benghazi there are large
:08:34. > :08:38.numbers of people whose allegance belongs to the Misrata tribe, the
:08:38. > :08:43.wealthy port city hundreds of miles to the west. And it gets more
:08:43. > :08:48.complicated still. A month ago a rebel commander outside Misrata
:08:48. > :08:52.explained to me that if his men entered the next town to the west,
:08:52. > :08:58.without a sufficient contingent of local fighters, they would be met
:08:58. > :09:02.with resistance, even if they were on the rebel side. Loyalist forces
:09:02. > :09:05.could continue to put up resistance for some time to come now. Colonel
:09:05. > :09:10.Gaddafi may have lost his grip on power, but that doesn't mean that
:09:10. > :09:15.he can't still cause trouble. While he's still at large, his presence
:09:15. > :09:19.will continue to cast a long shadow over Libya. These are the most
:09:19. > :09:24.recent pictures that Libyans have seen of the man who ruled their
:09:24. > :09:29.lives for over four decades. He has now disappeared from view, but the
:09:29. > :09:33.emotional power of his image remains very strong.
:09:33. > :09:37.In the minds and imagination of many Libyans this means fear, the
:09:37. > :09:42.fact that he's out, he's still spewing poison. There is the
:09:42. > :09:46.potential that he and his sons could easily basically develop and
:09:46. > :09:51.support and finance an insurgency. Think of what Saddam Hussein did
:09:51. > :09:55.before his capture. Libya is, of course, not Iraq, for
:09:55. > :09:58.many reasons, not least because there aren't the bitter sectarian
:09:58. > :10:02.divisions that dragged Iraq into a vicious civil war. So far, in the
:10:02. > :10:06.parts of Tripoli that are fully under the rebels control, the mood
:10:06. > :10:11.is more relaxed than tense. But these are early days.
:10:11. > :10:17.With us now in the studio, the former Foreign Secretary, David
:10:17. > :10:24.Owen, we are joined from Washington by the former US Ambassador to NATO.
:10:24. > :10:33.First let's talk to Benghazi, the foreign affairs spokesman for the
:10:33. > :10:40.National Transitional Council. What is your first priority there?
:10:40. > :10:50.first priority is, of course, to provide security and basic needs
:10:50. > :10:51.
:10:51. > :10:59.for the population. What does that mean in practice? It means to
:10:59. > :11:03.secure all cities and to put an end to Gaddafi's regime, and his
:11:03. > :11:10.security forces, and also to work with the international community,
:11:10. > :11:16.the first meeting we had today, in order to unfreeze some of our
:11:16. > :11:21.frozen assets abroad. We all know that Tripoli has been under siege
:11:21. > :11:30.for almost six months, and we have more than two million people in
:11:30. > :11:35.Tripoli, they are in real need for medicine, fuel, food and other
:11:35. > :11:40.supplies, these are our priorities for now. Is the plan that you will
:11:40. > :11:45.push National Transitional Council members in charge of all the
:11:45. > :11:51.ministries previously under Gaddafi's control? Can you rephrase
:11:51. > :11:56.your question again please. Is the idea that members of the National
:11:56. > :12:03.Transitional Council will take over all the individual ministries that
:12:03. > :12:06.were previously under Gaddafi's control.
:12:06. > :12:12.The ministries, the people who work in the ministries will remain where
:12:12. > :12:18.they work, for the ministries, or for the high officials, it depends
:12:18. > :12:24.if they are accused of being involved in any crimes or
:12:24. > :12:29.corruption, then they would have to face a fair trial, and this is what
:12:29. > :12:35.the NTC have been saying. When do you think it will be safe for you
:12:35. > :12:39.to move to Tripoli? The first delegation moved to Tripoli today.
:12:39. > :12:45.We have some members of the NTC, we have some members of the executive
:12:46. > :12:52.office, they are already in Tripoli, and we have an advance team to
:12:52. > :12:56.prepare a location for the NTC and also to provide and prepare a
:12:56. > :13:01.residence for the members who are moving from different cities in
:13:01. > :13:06.Libya to Tripoli. We expect this to happen within two weeks. Thank you
:13:06. > :13:11.for joining us. Despite all the communication difficulties.
:13:11. > :13:15.Now, Lord Owen, how big a problem is it that Gaddafi is still
:13:15. > :13:20.apparently at large somewhere? is a huge problem, psychalogically.
:13:20. > :13:25.It may not be quite such a big problem in any other way. The real
:13:25. > :13:28.problem is how do you get the snipers and isolated people to stop
:13:28. > :13:33.fighting. I think it would be much easier, I don't think it would stop
:13:33. > :13:40.immediately, but if you got Gaddafi, or you knew exactly where he was,
:13:41. > :13:44.outside the country, perhaps, it would make a great deal easier to
:13:45. > :13:48.pacify the country, and stop these isolated groups fighting. I don't
:13:48. > :13:57.think they come under any real command and control at the moment.
:13:57. > :14:02.That's the danger of the situation. Volkswagen vok, you heard there the
:14:02. > :14:08.- You heard there the member of the National Transitional Council, the
:14:08. > :14:11.main priority was to get the assets unfrozen, the assets Gaddafi got
:14:11. > :14:16.his hands on and then put beyond his reach by Governments in the
:14:16. > :14:21.world, would you agree that is the first thing to do? The first thing
:14:21. > :14:25.he said was security. I agree with him on that, I think security where
:14:25. > :14:29.the rebels are taking control, preventing retribution killings and
:14:29. > :14:32.ensuring people are able to go about their business. That is the
:14:32. > :14:35.key thing. In order for the Transitonal National Council to
:14:35. > :14:39.function, as an emerging Government, to keep things going in Libya, they
:14:39. > :14:43.are going to need those kinds of financial resources to pay salaries
:14:43. > :14:48.of people who have been paid by the Government to think point. Getting
:14:48. > :14:52.their hands on some of these assets quickly is very important. Is there
:14:52. > :14:57.a model anywhere for how the National Transitional Council could
:14:57. > :15:01.go about this extremely difficult job? I have been interested to see
:15:01. > :15:04.how things are going in Tunisia next door. They also have a
:15:04. > :15:08.transitional council. They have a different name for it. It is to
:15:08. > :15:11.ensure the realisation of the objectives of the revolution.
:15:11. > :15:18.Rather than playing a direct role in governance, they have tried to
:15:18. > :15:24.ensure there is a long transition process from what had been a
:15:24. > :15:29.Government run by a dictator, without much public input at all,
:15:29. > :15:32.to one that receives public input through elections. To play an
:15:32. > :15:37.oversight role, without a direct governing role without a long
:15:37. > :15:40.period of time, is rather a good model for the TNC. The most
:15:41. > :15:45.important thing they have already done is to publish a draft
:15:45. > :15:48.constitution, so people can see their direction. They promised
:15:48. > :15:52.election in eight months, that is a short time. Whether they can do it
:15:52. > :15:55.I'm not so sure. Even more important they have said that none
:15:55. > :16:00.of the transitional council will stand in those elections. Therefore,
:16:00. > :16:05.they are much more likely to be seen to be independent, just
:16:05. > :16:09.working for the unification of Libya. I think they have talked to
:16:09. > :16:15.a lot of Government supporters, and Governments in the west, and other
:16:15. > :16:19.Arab Government, and there is a lot of aftermath planning. That is one
:16:19. > :16:25.advantage of this five to six month process, they have been able to
:16:25. > :16:31.anticipate and learn from mistakes, I'm not as pessimistic as some
:16:31. > :16:36.about the transition. I'm modestly optimistic. A lot of people worry
:16:36. > :16:40.that because they represent so many diverse points of view to what the
:16:40. > :16:44.country could be like it can't last? These same people are really
:16:44. > :16:47.the ones against the no-fly zone, who didn't believe NATO could pull
:16:47. > :16:52.this very difficult operation off, and who have been rather
:16:52. > :16:56.pessimistic about it all along. I'm not a crazy idealist, it is going
:16:56. > :17:01.to be a difficult transition, but we watched the mess in Afghanistan
:17:01. > :17:07.and Iraq and the world really, I think, realises we have to do
:17:07. > :17:10.better here. What are the lessons for NATO here? Let me just quickly,
:17:10. > :17:14.your other question, if there weren't a diversity of points of
:17:14. > :17:18.view, then you would have a problem. It is the fact that you are
:17:18. > :17:23.bringing people, that is what is going to make it work. For NATO, I
:17:23. > :17:28.think there is a risk that we make a conclusion here that it worked
:17:28. > :17:32.out, so NATO must be fine. I think that would be a dangerous
:17:32. > :17:37.conclusion to reach, at several layer there is are issues we ought
:17:37. > :17:40.to be concerned about in the alliance, the issue of leadership,
:17:40. > :17:46.the issue of solidarity, capacities that allies bring to the table, are
:17:46. > :17:49.they able to take part in military action. In Libya we saw a mission
:17:49. > :17:53.nominally to protect civilians what made the difference was a few
:17:53. > :17:56.nations, acting very much on their own, France, the UK, the US and
:17:56. > :18:01.others, to actually co-ordinate much more closely with the rebels,
:18:01. > :18:06.to provide trainers, advisers, so they could make a decisive effect
:18:06. > :18:10.in Libya. NATO wasn't willing to take on that more robust mission,
:18:10. > :18:13.and not all the countries have the capacity to do so. It is striking
:18:13. > :18:19.how pathetic some of the NATO countries were? I think there is a
:18:19. > :18:23.real wake-up call for NATO. The one thing NATO provided was a command
:18:23. > :18:26.and control infrastructure that allowed America to work effectively
:18:26. > :18:30.with France and Britain. That is basically it. Only eight countries
:18:30. > :18:35.out of 28, that is less than a third actually contributed to this
:18:35. > :18:41.whole thing. And you know, we had Canada involved as well as the
:18:41. > :18:47.United States, and Norway, who is not an EU member, Poland didn't
:18:47. > :18:53.participate, nor did Turkey. But never the less, despite all the
:18:53. > :18:57.problems, and the running out of ammunition after only 11 week noose
:18:57. > :19:03.the operation, NATO has managed to provide the structure, and that's
:19:03. > :19:07.why I would say, keep NATO, but it has to be reformed, and seriously.
:19:07. > :19:13.And any tendency in Europe to say we did this, we did this alone, the
:19:13. > :19:17.Americans were absolutely crucial in the first three days, with their
:19:17. > :19:21.civils, over 100, taking out the ground-to-air missiles,
:19:21. > :19:27.sophisticated air defences, which Gaddafi had. I do think that for
:19:27. > :19:31.all the problems, the UN resolution, we managed to get China and Russia
:19:31. > :19:35.not vetoing, and we managed to get an operation, which was constrained.
:19:35. > :19:39.I think that interventions from now on will be constrained
:19:39. > :19:42.interventions. We have to work with these limitations. But we held
:19:42. > :19:46.public opinion in this country, and because it was legal and supported
:19:46. > :19:51.by the UN. Thank you very much.
:19:51. > :19:56.The London police released figures today to show they have now
:19:56. > :20:02.arrested nearly 2,000 people, and charged over 1 100 in connection
:20:02. > :20:06.with the riots. Part of David Cameron's cure for the problems, is
:20:07. > :20:12.the national service. He wants the national citizens service to be
:20:12. > :20:16.available to every teenager. Can it possibly attract young people so
:20:16. > :20:20.profoundly disaffected. Stephen Smith, who has been
:20:20. > :20:26.reporting on David Cameron's Big Society for us, had access to key
:20:26. > :20:30.stages of the scheme. Citizen Smith, what have you done today to make
:20:30. > :20:35.you feel proud? Picking up a broom, it has been the
:20:35. > :20:45.caisz of the summer. But do you know what, we were there first.
:20:45. > :21:10.
:21:11. > :21:18.Like a German holiday maker's towel Conspicuously, this isn't Downing
:21:18. > :21:21.Street, or the houses of parliament. But this wind-blown rock in the
:21:21. > :21:25.Lake District, could become a landmark in British politics. This
:21:25. > :21:29.is one of the places where ministers hope youngsters can be
:21:29. > :21:32.encouraged to scale the heights in their careers. And their
:21:32. > :21:41.communities. And to take a different route from young people
:21:41. > :21:45.of a similar age who were involved in riots earlier this month. So we
:21:45. > :21:48.have just done climbing, and what I want to do now, is I want you to
:21:48. > :21:53.think about what happened when we were walking up here, why you were
:21:53. > :21:59.climbing. I think the hardest thing for me was that hill. Because it is
:21:59. > :22:06.big and it is long. It is very steep. Get that hill on camera!
:22:06. > :22:12.This group, all aged 16 and from south London, are on a week's
:22:12. > :22:16.outward bound trip, as part of David Cameron's National Citizens'
:22:16. > :22:22.Service. You are meeting strangers, and basically you have to trust
:22:22. > :22:29.them. What we just did is all about trust and team work. It is like
:22:29. > :22:32.prison? Yeah. In what way? The bunk beds, there is no signal, you don't
:22:32. > :22:38.get no signal on your phone. Do you good, some people would say, a bit
:22:38. > :22:43.of a change? Yeah, I know, it is still boring. I love the. I can't
:22:43. > :22:48.work it out if you are enjoying it or not? Oh no, I'm enjoying it, I'm
:22:48. > :22:53.loving it. At the other end of the country,
:22:53. > :23:03.this is the outskirts of Croydon, where some of those youngsters come
:23:03. > :23:08.
:23:09. > :23:12.from. This supermarket was burnt It is not far from this bee-loud
:23:12. > :23:15.corner in southern England. This is where another group of future
:23:15. > :23:18.national sit ens, who have already been through the outward bound
:23:18. > :23:22.phase of the scheme, are hoping to do something to benefit locals.
:23:22. > :23:31.This is the site we want to build our community food learning centre
:23:32. > :23:36.on. You have got work to do, so bags off, over there.
:23:36. > :23:40.They want to help Evelyn here, who is passionate about food, to
:23:40. > :23:43.establish a kitchen and allotments on this site. Though this must be
:23:43. > :23:48.said, Evelyn is doing most of the work today, the youngsters help out
:23:48. > :23:54.with the food tasting. Hey, you lot, try this one, that one is nice,
:23:54. > :23:59.that one is nice. Evelyn, can you seriously fight
:23:59. > :24:02.rioting with quiche! Well, a lot of them join a gang to keep safe, to
:24:02. > :24:06.get self-esteem, and to do something. Because there is nothing
:24:06. > :24:10.to do. Now if you give them something really positive to do,
:24:10. > :24:14.and they can actually stay at it long enough, it is not just going
:24:14. > :24:17.away and doing some abseilling, it is not just going way and doing
:24:17. > :24:23.some camping or something, it is great, it is a treat, but they have
:24:23. > :24:26.to go home, what to? So I want something, a few more buildings
:24:26. > :24:30.around where there is something really creative going on, that they
:24:30. > :24:34.can become part of, bring their mates, and say hands off, we have
:24:34. > :24:37.helped build that, no mucking about. Do you think this kind of thing
:24:38. > :24:42.stops people rioting? Definitely, it gets people off the streets and
:24:42. > :24:46.gives them something to do. What about the kind of hard case guys
:24:46. > :24:50.who were out doing the rioting here last week, is this going to be
:24:50. > :24:55.somewhere they will just laugh at, do you think even they could get
:24:55. > :24:59.involved? You never know, some of the rioters were probably average
:24:59. > :25:03.Joes, the next door neighbour, they will probably get involved any way.
:25:03. > :25:10.Others say setting up and running a kitchen here isn't going to be a
:25:10. > :25:13.walk in the park. Youth volunteers is a great tradition, as a Labour
:25:13. > :25:20.councillor it is part of the co- operative tradition of working
:25:20. > :25:24.together. But they need support and help and assistance. That is what
:25:24. > :25:28.the Big Society is not delivering to an area like this. Quiche
:25:28. > :25:33.doesn't grow on trees. That is why the teenagers are singing for their
:25:33. > :25:39.supper, or rather pitching for some funding at this version of TV's
:25:40. > :25:42.Dragon's Den. The stakes are modest, but the energy isn't. Even old
:25:42. > :25:51.Duncan Bannatyne might get his chequebook out for this lot, or
:25:51. > :25:55.maybe not. Good morning ladies and gentlemen,
:25:55. > :25:58.good food matters was a dream and vision that Evelyn wanted for a
:25:58. > :26:03.long time. She wanted a place for disadvantaged young people who
:26:03. > :26:07.wanted the chance to learn about new foods and lead healthy
:26:07. > :26:11.lifestyles. To raise money for Good Food Matters, we have been taking
:26:11. > :26:20.part in a triathlon, it has three activities, running, swimming and
:26:20. > :26:24.cycling. They need to just think
:26:24. > :26:26.realistically about how many hours they can really commit to this.
:26:26. > :26:31.dragons, who include representatives of a local council,
:26:31. > :26:34.and a high Street bank, decide to give the group the �30 or so they
:26:35. > :26:39.are after, as seed money for their fundraiser.
:26:39. > :26:43.What do they think about the scheme? And the riots, come to
:26:43. > :26:46.that? You don't needing to out and start burning shops and taking
:26:46. > :26:50.things, because there is nothing else to do. That is a short-term
:26:50. > :26:54.gain, long-term loss, some of those shops won't open again. My friend
:26:54. > :26:58.would encourage me to do this, if I wasn't in this challenge. My
:26:58. > :27:05.friends were all out there doing it while I was here. I will be in with
:27:05. > :27:09.him, that is just how I am. Oh my God. Back in the Lake
:27:10. > :27:13.District, some white water team building for the south Londoners we
:27:13. > :27:19.met on the outward bound week of the national citizen source. This
:27:19. > :27:25.is known as gorging, there isn't so much as a McDonald's in sight.
:27:25. > :27:33.How useful is the National Citizen Service. With us is the Children's
:27:33. > :27:38.Minister in the studio in Brighton. And Association of Voluntary
:27:38. > :27:41.Organisations is with us. What is the theory? This is a
:27:41. > :27:45.really big idea, it is really transformational, it is about
:27:45. > :27:49.valuing engaging young people, giving them a stake in society, but
:27:49. > :27:54.also challenging them as well. It is a personal, social development
:27:54. > :27:58.programme, it is about getting them volunteering, but also about Rites
:27:58. > :28:02.of Passage, it is about a transition to adulthood, we do that
:28:02. > :28:05.badly in this country. And the service is a way of recognising the
:28:05. > :28:09.great contribution that young people can make and getting them
:28:09. > :28:13.some respect, if they have been through the challenge that it
:28:13. > :28:17.offers. There is none of it you would take exception to at a
:28:17. > :28:21.theoretical level? Any scheme that gets young people out into the
:28:21. > :28:25.community and volunteering, the question is, is it good enough for
:28:25. > :28:28.the challenges we have at the moment. There is an inescapably
:28:28. > :28:32.context we found ourselves at the moment, that is the cuts. Youth
:28:32. > :28:36.charities throughout the country are getting their funding cut.
:28:36. > :28:39.Swindon has just cut 100% of its funding to youth voluntary
:28:39. > :28:42.programmes. Secondly, there is an issue about reach of the programme.
:28:42. > :28:46.Will the programme get right down to the people who need it the most.
:28:46. > :28:50.If this programme replaces that which is cut, there is no problem?
:28:50. > :28:56.There is a problem. This scheme is going to cost, according to a
:28:56. > :29:03.committee of MPs, �355 million, that's only half of eligible
:29:03. > :29:06.children taking it up. On the hand you are having that same amount of
:29:06. > :29:08.money cut from voluntary youth services up and down the country.
:29:09. > :29:14.Now you have to look at this through the eyes of young people.
:29:14. > :29:18.If you are a young person who is involved already in a youth
:29:18. > :29:21.programme, that volunteers every Thursday or weekly, and they see
:29:21. > :29:24.that scheme cut, and on the other hand they see another big
:29:24. > :29:27.initiative that lands on the table, they are not going to see it as
:29:27. > :29:31.that is something from the local service, which have disappeared,
:29:31. > :29:35.and here is a national programme, they will see this as robbing Peter
:29:35. > :29:38.to pay Paul. It seems a nuts arrangement minister? It is not
:29:38. > :29:43.nuts at all. This is something we have been working on for several
:29:43. > :29:47.years, not something that has come up since the disturbances recently.
:29:47. > :29:51.This is money that has come in a separate funding scheme from the
:29:51. > :29:55.Treasury, it is not part of education or youth funding. It is
:29:55. > :30:00.money going into youth activities. What was wrong with all the
:30:00. > :30:04.projects you are cutting? We are not cutting the projects, youth
:30:04. > :30:08.projects are run by councils, and there is a mixed cutting. I'm
:30:08. > :30:13.trying to bring, from a national perspective, is bring the services
:30:13. > :30:17.into the 21st century, they are reliant on slugs of money from the
:30:17. > :30:20.public sector, I want the private sector and local authorities to get
:30:20. > :30:24.involved in youth services. This is something bigger and better, and
:30:24. > :30:27.certainly very ambitious indeed, this is also about social mixing,
:30:27. > :30:30.you heard from those kids who have been on the scheme already. The
:30:30. > :30:33.feedback from it, I have been there, climbing up walls, I have been
:30:33. > :30:37.climbing up trees with some of these kids. It is really
:30:37. > :30:41.challenging and the feedback is positive, very positive. As they
:30:41. > :30:45.said, they are meeting people they would never have met, they would
:30:45. > :30:48.never have crossed the road to meet. They are from all different walks
:30:48. > :30:53.of life. To say that you need something new, when actually we
:30:53. > :30:57.have youth services out there that have been running for generations,
:30:57. > :31:02.that have enormous amounts of inherited and institution memories
:31:02. > :31:05.about how to work with young people and get down deep. This is not a
:31:05. > :31:08.compulsory scheme, it is a nationwide scheme, so the bigger
:31:08. > :31:13.issue facing our society at the moment, particularly highlighted by
:31:13. > :31:16.recent events is how you get to the most dysfunctional. Let's ask the
:31:16. > :31:21.minister? That is exactly what this is about. If it is voluntary and
:31:21. > :31:24.you can choose not to take part in it, how do you reach the kids?
:31:24. > :31:27.tapped into all the expertise delivering services up and down the
:31:27. > :31:32.country. This isn't something that the Department for Education and
:31:32. > :31:35.the Government have come up with. We are working with V, with the
:31:35. > :31:39.Prince's Trust. You have cut those, local authority services which you
:31:39. > :31:45.have cut, you are working with all these things you have taken money
:31:45. > :31:48.away from, can you tell u the point was how you encage children if it
:31:48. > :31:51.is voluntary? By working with the experts. Part of the tendering,
:31:51. > :31:55.this is delivered not by central Government, this is being delivered
:31:55. > :31:58.by all sorts of youth services who have an enormous expertise working
:31:58. > :32:04.with particularly challenging children already. We have Catch 22,
:32:04. > :32:08.with a great deal of expertise working with kids in the youth
:32:09. > :32:12.justice system, or who are homeless, who are working with the service,
:32:12. > :32:18.working alongside Young Devon and Connections in different parts of
:32:18. > :32:24.the country, mixes up kids from different backgrounds. It won't be
:32:24. > :32:27.judged by how many middle-class children go to, but how we engage
:32:27. > :32:31.with people from disabilities and difficult background and people
:32:31. > :32:35.from the justice system and others. Other schemes don't do that, that
:32:35. > :32:39.is what it is all about. Answer the question, minister, how do you
:32:39. > :32:42.engage those who need to be engaged, if the thing is entirely voluntary?
:32:42. > :32:45.Because this will be such a fantastic scheme, as you are seeing
:32:45. > :32:52.from the feedback with the kids that go on it, that you will be
:32:52. > :32:56.crazy not to want to go on it. We can consult with the youth sector,
:32:56. > :32:59.and that puts a different complexion on the whole thing. This
:32:59. > :33:03.is something that values young people and young people should
:33:03. > :33:07.value it too. These young people are going back to friends and
:33:08. > :33:11.siblings to say sign up for it next year. Does that consort with your
:33:11. > :33:17.own experience here? There have been so many opportunities for
:33:17. > :33:20.young people for so long, why would they want to do this and not other
:33:20. > :33:23.things. We are talking about the people we need to benefit from this
:33:23. > :33:28.scheme are the very hardest to reach. These are people on the
:33:28. > :33:30.fringes of society. They are. on a second. These people are on
:33:30. > :33:35.the fringes of society, business as usual won't get these people
:33:35. > :33:40.involved. We need to put into context the scale of the programme
:33:40. > :33:44.being launched today, �355 million to get half of eligible yupgs ters
:33:44. > :33:47.involved in this, according to a committee of MPs. Who are wrong.
:33:47. > :33:52.That is the equivalent of all spending from local authorities on
:33:52. > :33:55.youth services for the entire country. So we are talking about an
:33:55. > :34:00.enormous grand scheme, that is nationwide, when really all the
:34:00. > :34:06.evidence is saying at the moment, the problem we need to get to is
:34:06. > :34:09.very, very focused, even Duncan Smith is launching a raft of new -
:34:09. > :34:13.Iain Duncan Smith is launching a raft of new policy, and saying it
:34:13. > :34:16.is going down to individuals, these people won't go out looking for the
:34:16. > :34:19.opportunities, the opportunities have to come looking for them. They
:34:19. > :34:22.have to start looking at new ways of getting these high-cost
:34:22. > :34:26.individuals out into these schemes. It will be tough, and it needs
:34:26. > :34:30.something that has not been done before. It is happening. I am
:34:31. > :34:35.afraid this has been done before. The people I have seen on the
:34:35. > :34:40.schemes, the challenge as a charity delivering about 30% of the place,
:34:40. > :34:45.70% of the people on the schemes don't engage with the conventional
:34:45. > :34:49.youth services there already. 20% are kids who qualify for free
:34:49. > :34:53.school meals and disadvantaged background, from the East End of
:34:53. > :34:57.London, and Manchester, mixing with kids from rural areas and
:34:57. > :35:01.independent schools who they wouldn't come across. Thrown in
:35:01. > :35:05.they weekend, working in teams, they are being challenged and
:35:05. > :35:07.getting a lot out of it, and so will the country. This is
:35:07. > :35:12.transformational. The toppling of Colonel Gaddafi has
:35:12. > :35:16.been presented as the first step in transition to modern, democratic
:35:16. > :35:22.state. But one look at the National Transitional Council reveals a
:35:22. > :35:26.glaerg fact. They are nearly all men. The Arab Spring was presented
:35:26. > :35:29.as bringing freedom to all. It was noticed how many earlier
:35:29. > :35:35.demonstrators in the centre of Cairo, were in Tahrir Square
:35:35. > :35:45.instead of being at home cooking the dinner. The expectation was the
:35:45. > :35:48.end of autocracy would benefit both sexes. It is incredibly
:35:48. > :35:52.discontented. I don't think we have been where the world is looking at
:35:52. > :35:58.us. In the beginning it was spring for everyone, women as well as men
:35:58. > :36:06.on the streets of Egypt, Tunisia, Bahrain, veiled and bare-headed, a
:36:06. > :36:11.democratic and feminist Arab awakening.
:36:11. > :36:18.Six months later, notice a difference. Libya's revolution is
:36:18. > :36:21.being run almost exclusively by men. It seems women were at the
:36:21. > :36:25.forefront of the initial protests in Benghazi, women have played a
:36:25. > :36:28.strong role in the opposition. We don't see a huge representation of
:36:28. > :36:35.women in the National Transitional Council. It seems clear that women
:36:35. > :36:39.are in a very small minority. The irony is, before the revolution,
:36:39. > :36:43.Libya was one of the more equal counties in the Arab world. Women
:36:43. > :36:47.were better educated than in neighbouring countries, had
:36:47. > :36:52.maternity benefits and held high- ranking Government positions. Of
:36:52. > :36:57.course, Colonel Gaddafi always had his personal peccadilloes, there
:36:57. > :37:07.was the all female team of body guards. And in his famous green
:37:07. > :37:17.
:37:17. > :37:22.book, a strange lecture on matters But women were always a visible,
:37:22. > :37:28.vital part of the colonel's Libya. Could that be about to change? In
:37:28. > :37:31.Tunisia and Egypt, women, not only marched, but were leading the
:37:31. > :37:37.protests. Everyone wants a new start, so you know, it is just
:37:37. > :37:41.lovely to be part of it all. Everyone suffered from a different
:37:41. > :37:48.problem, now we think all our problems will be resolved. Yes. We
:37:48. > :37:52.are very optimistic now. As the dictators fell, and the
:37:52. > :37:56.interim Governments came in, women have slowly seen their contribution
:37:56. > :38:00.swept to one side. In Egypt, for example, there is not one single
:38:00. > :38:08.women on the committee to rewrite the constitution. It is devastating
:38:08. > :38:13.for some activists. Unfortunately the way that the country has been
:38:13. > :38:17.ruled so far doss not really allow for strong participation or
:38:17. > :38:22.inclusion of women in decision making. We thought that with a new
:38:22. > :38:26.democratic Egypt this would be over. But we still don't see this
:38:26. > :38:31.happening. In Tunisia women are feeling the backlash too. Back in
:38:31. > :38:35.January they Marched together with men, to over- marched together with
:38:35. > :38:40.men to overthrow Ben Ali. Now this blogger says boys shout at her in
:38:40. > :38:44.the street, your place is in the kitchen and why does she need more
:38:44. > :38:47.rights. Some are blaming women, especially the former President's
:38:47. > :38:52.wife, for the excesses of the regime. The big unknown is how much
:38:52. > :38:57.power will land in the hands of the religious movements. A recent poll
:38:57. > :39:05.in tu in this caseia put their Islamist - Tunisia put their
:39:05. > :39:10.Islamist party in the lead. The Muslim Brotherhood is still strong.
:39:10. > :39:15.In the struggle for a democratic voice, as spring passes into summer
:39:15. > :39:20.and autumn, Arab women may find themselves no better off than
:39:20. > :39:24.during the long winter of the dictators. Let's chew this over now
:39:24. > :39:29.with a political analyst, who recently spent five months working
:39:29. > :39:34.with the National Transitional Council in Benghazi, and in New
:39:34. > :39:38.York with a Middle East commentator. Will it really be a new dawn in
:39:38. > :39:42.Libya, do you think? I had extremely positive experience, I
:39:42. > :39:46.just went marching into a city that wasn't mine, without any family,
:39:46. > :39:50.and there was women involved in every aspect of the revolution from
:39:50. > :39:53.what I could see. We haven't seen much evidence of women on the
:39:53. > :39:57.streets, either in Tripoli or Benghazi? On the contrary, I
:39:58. > :40:01.wouldn't say it was in the stories, but it was present, they were
:40:01. > :40:05.leading marches, organising themselves, setting up civil
:40:05. > :40:10.societies, over 100 newspapers were set up, many editorialised by women.
:40:10. > :40:15.In every aspect of the revolution, from the local councils, the NTC
:40:15. > :40:19.and cabinet, I worked with women to know detriment with myself. Do you
:40:19. > :40:22.share the confidence about the advance of women as a consequence
:40:22. > :40:25.of the Arab Spring? Absolutely, I think the revolution we have seen
:40:25. > :40:29.on the ground, the revolution of the feet has definitely to be
:40:29. > :40:32.followed by the revolution of the mind. That, I think, is the key
:40:32. > :40:36.element that all the countries across the region have to face
:40:36. > :40:39.sooner or later, and by the revolution of the mind, I mean
:40:39. > :40:43.recogniseing that we fought a patriarch in the form of the
:40:43. > :40:47.dictator, and we now need to fight patriarchs within ourselves, within
:40:47. > :40:54.our families, within our work. But having said that, nothing could be
:40:54. > :40:59.worse than what people had lived under Gaddafi, Mubarak and Ben Ali.
:40:59. > :41:03.Under Gaddafi you had social rehabilitation centres, where girls
:41:03. > :41:07.were dumped in they were victims of sexual abuse or rai. These must
:41:07. > :41:12.close. There is no doubt in my mind that men, women and children will
:41:12. > :41:16.live better lives without Gaddafi. This amusing idea that he was some
:41:16. > :41:21.sort of feminist hero, what do you make of that? That was outrageous,
:41:21. > :41:25.remember he would go to Italy and tell his pal Berlusconi, so round
:41:25. > :41:31.up women for him to rescue European women. It was laughable. The
:41:31. > :41:35.passage we heard from the green book, and this image he had that he
:41:35. > :41:45.was a feminist because he was surrounded by female body guards.
:41:45. > :41:47.
:41:47. > :41:55.It was as ludicrous as the First Ladys of many countries, like many
:41:55. > :41:59.of them claiming their husband was helping women and they were not.
:41:59. > :42:02.whole heartedly agree with everything that was said. There was
:42:02. > :42:06.complete nepotism that effected both men and women, nobody advanced
:42:07. > :42:10.on the merit, if you didn't have a connection to the regime you were
:42:10. > :42:14.not suitable, not because you were a woman, or a men. Can you really
:42:14. > :42:18.in your wildest dreams imagine any of these countries having a female
:42:18. > :42:24.President? I very much hope in the future. There is nothing stopping
:42:24. > :42:31.me. Is that the same as imagineing? In the past five months I have
:42:31. > :42:34.walked into the NTC, and working with all these men, nothing stopped
:42:34. > :42:37.me except coming home for a break. There is nothing stopping any of
:42:37. > :42:43.the women I have met from having a future role in leading their
:42:43. > :42:48.country. There is only one woman on the NTC? There is more than one
:42:48. > :42:52.woman. The entire National Assembly will be elected when it moves to
:42:52. > :42:55.Tripoli. There is women working on the councils in in the cabinet.
:42:55. > :42:58.There is women behind civil society uprisings, taking place throughout
:42:58. > :43:02.the country. While certainly there is a lot of male chest beating
:43:02. > :43:07.going on in a lot of Arab countries, if you look at the women who are
:43:07. > :43:12.getting on with the work, they roll their eyes and step aside the need
:43:12. > :43:19.for any particular camera in their face and just get on with the work.
:43:19. > :43:24.They are very comfortable with the role they have. Can you imagine a
:43:24. > :43:27.female President of Egypt? We have a woman running for President.
:43:27. > :43:33.She's a very well known television presenter. And just before I came
:43:33. > :43:37.on to the air, I was following her tweets from southern Egypt, she has
:43:37. > :43:41.tirelessly travelled across the country. She's canvasing more than
:43:41. > :43:46.any of the male candidates I have heard of. Whether she stands a
:43:46. > :43:52.chance or not is besides the point, what is more important is she's out
:43:52. > :43:56.there, meeting people in the most conservative areas of Egypt and
:43:56. > :43:59.saying what every candidate needs to say, what do you need as an
:43:59. > :44:03.Egyptian, what do we need to do to make a free Egypt succeed. I would
:44:03. > :44:08.vote for her. I hope in the next presidential elections we have in
:44:08. > :44:11.Egypt more than one woman runs. This is just the beginning. It is
:44:11. > :44:15.only seven months since we finally got rid of Mubarak. We need to work
:44:15. > :44:19.on the revolution of the mind. We need to persuade Egyptian women and
:44:19. > :44:23.men, that together, as citizens of Egypt, they must rebuild the
:44:23. > :44:28.country. That is how we ensure boys and girls, men and women, have
:44:28. > :44:32.equal trols play in our countries. How long - equal roles to play in
:44:32. > :44:36.our countries. How long will it take? I don't know, but it took 18
:44:36. > :44:40.days to get rid of Mubarak, but if it takes the rest of our lives to
:44:40. > :44:44.make sure this becomes a reality. You are seeing children in Egypt
:44:44. > :44:54.seeing a woman running for President. Children in Egypt with
:44:54. > :44:58.their parents telling them remember the Tahrir Square, you are talking
:44:58. > :45:02.about a generation that is awake, they got rid of a dictator. That
:45:03. > :45:06.sense of optimisim is addictive, it is inspirational. Knowing the
:45:06. > :45:11.patriotism in the country, but knowing that we got rid of the
:45:11. > :45:14.number one patriarch, we can do it, I'm sure.
:45:14. > :45:20.A look ahead to something coming up tomorrow, when we will have a
:45:20. > :45:24.special report on the riots from Donal McIntyre, who has been on the
:45:25. > :45:28.trail of the Manchester looters. Newsnight has exclusive stories
:45:28. > :45:34.from the Manchester riots, from eyewitnesses, and looters. What did
:45:34. > :45:39.you get? A TV, enough money, jewellery, clothes.
:45:39. > :45:42.extraordinary and unpalatable truth is for 12 hours one of the
:45:42. > :45:47.country's biggest and most important cities was lawless and
:45:48. > :45:57.out of control. Tomorrow morning's front pages are dominated by
:45:58. > :46:12.
:46:12. > :46:22.That's all from Newsnight tonight. Tomorrow you will have the pleasure
:46:22. > :46:26.
:46:26. > :46:30.of Kirsty's company. Until then, Hello, more wet weather around
:46:30. > :46:35.tonight. In the morning it will be very soggy across parts of north-
:46:35. > :46:39.east England, the Midlands, this heavy rain gradually working across
:46:39. > :46:44.East Anglia and the south-east. Particularly in South Wales and the
:46:44. > :46:48.east of England,-y showers. A fine day in the north, brightening in
:46:48. > :46:52.the east of the Pennine, some of the coast will stay grey and damp.
:46:52. > :46:56.The rain will take quite a bit of time before clearing away from Kent.
:46:56. > :46:58.Brightening up across the home counties, there will be sunny
:46:58. > :47:02.spells across the south west of England, expect heavy showers with
:47:02. > :47:06.a risk of hail and thunder, especially on the north coast of
:47:06. > :47:10.Devon, some of the storms will work into southern parts of Wales.
:47:11. > :47:14.Elsewhere parts of rain is sunshine and scattered showers, also for
:47:14. > :47:19.Northern Ireland. Not so many showers across Scotland, some in
:47:19. > :47:23.the North West, elsewhere it may stay dry with sunshine lifting the
:47:23. > :47:27.temperature. As for Friday, we are expecting more wet weather to work
:47:27. > :47:32.across parts of England and Wales, scattered showers for Scotland and
:47:32. > :47:35.Northern Ireland. But equally there will be a decent A sunshine. In the
:47:35. > :47:38.south there will be more wet weather around on Friday.
:47:38. > :47:42.Particularly across eastern counties of England. Again there is
:47:42. > :47:45.the likelihood that this rain could be heavy and possibly thundery.