:00:06. > :00:10.Tonight, Newsnight take us to the core of the riots that have
:00:10. > :00:13.horrified us all, and why they happened. In a shocking report on
:00:13. > :00:17.the violence in Manchester, Newsnight discovers young men with
:00:17. > :00:21.no remorse for the damage they have inflicted on their own city and
:00:21. > :00:26.their own neighbours. Something to tell the grand kids. Something to
:00:26. > :00:31.tell the kids when I'm older. When I go back into town I will think
:00:31. > :00:37.the shops got smashed up in 2011 by all of us.Ly Speak to a friend of
:00:37. > :00:44.all those men, an oner in of the shop that got smashed to Smith
:00:44. > :00:49.reens, and Diane Abbott. Can any blame lay with unemployment. Much
:00:49. > :00:54.of the employment taken is taken by eastern European, hungry for work.
:00:54. > :00:58.The hunt for Colonel Gaddafi, did the take Tateor escape through
:00:58. > :01:01.these tunnels under - dictator escape through these tunnels under
:01:01. > :01:06.the compound. It is difficult for the rebels to
:01:06. > :01:08.operate in Tripoli, but the sooner they can get there and establish
:01:08. > :01:18.their own authority there the betterment
:01:18. > :01:20.
:01:20. > :01:23.We hear from the prominent writer, John Steinbeck John Steyn, who once
:01:23. > :01:27.thought the United States was teflon-coated, but now believes
:01:27. > :01:31.their time may be up. The courts are dealing with the
:01:31. > :01:35.mayhem and criminality that beset London and other cities two weeks
:01:35. > :01:39.ago, the aftermath is still traumatic. In Manchester and
:01:39. > :01:46.Salford, 20 police officers were injured, 150 fires were started,
:01:46. > :01:50.four of them had fire crews attacked and they had to stop. 100
:01:51. > :01:54.shops and premises were looted and smashed up. The charges included
:01:54. > :01:58.recklessly endangering life, assaulting a police officer,
:01:58. > :02:02.burglary and criminal damage. Mancunians could not believe the
:02:02. > :02:06.extraordinary scenes of violence and destruction in their much loved
:02:06. > :02:12.city, neither could the rest of us. The debate is still raging why
:02:12. > :02:19.about the riots happened, and why the criminals relished the
:02:19. > :02:27.destruction. The police officers in charge of the CCTV for the Arndale
:02:27. > :02:33.Centre, called the perpetrators feral rats.
:02:33. > :02:43.Everything just started escalating. People just starting coming out of
:02:43. > :02:45.
:02:45. > :02:50.everywhere. On Bebo, Twitter. on Twitter, sent a message, get
:02:50. > :02:57.down to Manchester. People going absolutely crazy. I was buzzing,
:02:58. > :03:01.smashing windows and police cars and stuff.
:03:01. > :03:06.There was nothing that the police could do, there was an overwhelming
:03:06. > :03:14.sense of power. On the night of August 2011, the mob took control
:03:14. > :03:18.of the centre of one of England's biggest cities. This is their story.
:03:18. > :03:22.Two weeks on from the violence that consumed Manchester, Britain is
:03:22. > :03:26.still coming to terms with how quickly civil society broke down up
:03:26. > :03:34.and down the country. Who were the rioters, who were the looters and
:03:34. > :03:39.where did they come from. We came to Manchester to find out.
:03:39. > :03:42.Salford, the district where the trouble first ignited. Jamie
:03:42. > :03:47.Darrington told us everyone was watching what was happening in
:03:47. > :03:51.London. That a distinct sense of unease had been building Australian
:03:51. > :03:54.morning. Everything started escalating, people just started
:03:54. > :03:58.coming out of everywhere, shops, culling out of their homes, hoods
:03:58. > :04:02.up. People running up the subway, smashing bottle, look at the state
:04:02. > :04:06.of it down there already. That is couple of weeks afterwards. You
:04:06. > :04:09.have people trying to rip shutters off Tesco and somewhere, chemists
:04:09. > :04:15.getting broken into. Everything, just every little business really.
:04:15. > :04:19.Who was doing it? Everyone who was round here.
:04:19. > :04:24.Jamie watched in amazement as hundreds of men, women and children,
:04:24. > :04:28.descended on the shopping precinct, many setting out on a path of
:04:28. > :04:35.destruction. Jamie received message after
:04:35. > :04:43.message, asking him to join in. He didn't. Police were attacked, as
:04:43. > :04:47.was a cameraman, making this recording.
:04:47. > :04:52.Send a message out on Facebook, Twitter, send a message out on
:04:52. > :04:56.whatever social networking site, BBM, just normal text messages,
:04:56. > :05:00.group together, let's go rob a shop, let's go rob Tesco. When we say
:05:00. > :05:05.everybody was doing it. Are you talking about mothers and fathers,
:05:05. > :05:10.and uncles, saying ...I'm Talking about families pulling up in cars,
:05:10. > :05:17.and filling the car boots with food, and whatever they can take. But the
:05:17. > :05:21.majority of the people were 14-25- year-old, running around, hoods up,
:05:21. > :05:26.mass en masse, going crazy. There was no sense of race involved, this
:05:26. > :05:30.is a predominantly white area? majority of it was white people.
:05:30. > :05:35.There weren't any black people who were round here rioting, the odd
:05:35. > :05:42.few, but it was white people. why were they doing it? Was it
:05:42. > :05:46.anger, poverty, just day out? poverty, because they could.
:05:46. > :05:52.Greater Manchester Police drafted officers from all over the city to
:05:52. > :05:59.combat the violence in Salford. Drivers panicked as they tried to
:05:59. > :06:02.escape the anarchy. It took police nearly four hours to stablise the
:06:02. > :06:06.situation. The trouble here sucked in a huge amount of police
:06:06. > :06:09.resources and numbers, leaving the centre of Manchester very
:06:09. > :06:18.vulnerable. It wasn't long before people took advantage, and the
:06:18. > :06:23.anarchy spread like wild fire. Two miles away, crowds began
:06:23. > :06:26.gathering in Manchester's Picadilly gardens, trouble seemed inevitable.
:06:26. > :06:30.Everyone we spoke to emphasised how rioters used their phones to
:06:31. > :06:35.connect in advance of the disorder. Go out, get on the phone, get on
:06:35. > :06:39.Facebook, send a message, get down to man chester, send to every
:06:39. > :06:44.contact in your phone book. That is how it happened really. There is no
:06:45. > :06:51.way that amount of people got down here that fast. At 5.20 it arrived.
:06:51. > :06:56.People stormed up Market Street, forcing shoppers and commuters to
:06:56. > :07:00.run for cover. The Arndale Centre, the commercial Jew we will in the
:07:00. > :07:09.city's crown came under siege, and the police just managed to push
:07:09. > :07:15.them back. The mob, by now, including children, was thousands
:07:15. > :07:18.strong. They broke into shops, attacked cars and targeted police.
:07:19. > :07:24.Fire engines drove past arsonistings, looters flaunted
:07:24. > :07:28.their stolen good, in front of lines of policemen. The
:07:28. > :07:29.extraordinary and unpalatable truth, is for 12 hours one of the
:07:30. > :07:39.country's biggest and most important cities was lawless and
:07:39. > :07:43.out of control. Cody Lachey was caught up in the
:07:43. > :07:49.French circumstance an ex-soldier, he served two tours in Afghanistan.
:07:49. > :07:53.I have seen a lot of stuff in my life, from being in the army. I
:07:53. > :07:57.have never seen anything like that night, in the war there is rulings,
:07:57. > :08:01.there was no rules, get what you can take. If it is not literally
:08:01. > :08:04.tied down, take it. He says he didn't loot, he admits he was part
:08:05. > :08:08.of the mob. People were running in every different direction, people
:08:08. > :08:14.were running in and way, different directions, people with handfuls of
:08:14. > :08:17.stuff, people with TV, bags, dragging suitcases they had looted.
:08:17. > :08:21.It was mental, carnage, complete and utter carnage. You were
:08:21. > :08:25.surrounded by looters, some were your mates? Of course, yeah.
:08:25. > :08:29.were saying it was so lawless that looters were presenting and
:08:29. > :08:34.taunting police officers with the stolen goods? Normally, any other
:08:34. > :08:38.day, they would run away. But that day there was that many of them,
:08:38. > :08:41.the police didn't have the power, the people had the power, and the
:08:41. > :08:49.people were turning up to the police and saying listen this is
:08:49. > :08:52.what I have got. People standing there with bottles of vodka, and
:08:52. > :08:56.with beers, and saying fuck off, saying what are you going to
:08:56. > :09:00.fucking do. There was nothing the police could do. It was an
:09:00. > :09:04.overwhelming sense of power. asked him to take us to some of his
:09:04. > :09:07.friends who took part in the looting, so we could find out what
:09:08. > :09:13.happened and challenge them on whether they felt responsible for
:09:13. > :09:17.their actions. It was just part of a big mob. It was just, I know,
:09:17. > :09:22.just cause as much trouble as you can. Who organised it, was it a
:09:22. > :09:28.collective, a community? It was all of it, it was on Facebook. Loads of
:09:28. > :09:33.kids getting together, it has come together. If it wasn't for Facebook,
:09:33. > :09:37.the blackberry. Anything with an attack line, Bebo, twittwiter, it
:09:37. > :09:45.got to that, all went round. Everyone has got together in town,
:09:45. > :09:48.and it has kicked off. A load of kids got together. It was a lot
:09:48. > :09:52.better than sex or better than anything. You can't describe it,
:09:52. > :09:58.because you were in the atmosphere, and you knew it might not happen
:09:58. > :10:03.again, so you could just do it then and get away with it. I was just
:10:03. > :10:07.chilling, first. I heard the windows go through, I put my hood
:10:07. > :10:13.up, bally on, and went through to the shops. Everyone shop got taken
:10:13. > :10:18.out, I decided to join in, get what I want. What did you get? I got a
:10:19. > :10:25.TV, enough money, jewellery, clothes, that's it. With the door
:10:25. > :10:30.open, windows smashed, or did you smash them? Ripped the shutters off,
:10:30. > :10:33.got in. Took some stuff out of it. How did that make you feel? How did
:10:34. > :10:38.that make me feel? I was buzzing, just smashing windows and police
:10:38. > :10:43.cars and stuff. It must have felt very commanding and powerful that
:10:43. > :10:47.you could smash a window, grab a TV and know you could walk past a
:10:47. > :10:50.policeman and nothing would happen? There was too many of us, they
:10:50. > :10:54.wouldn't have just jumped one of them the police would have got
:10:54. > :10:59.jumped on. Walking off with a TV, it is not just one of you, it is a
:10:59. > :11:03.big group walk ago I way with TV, you know they will not stop you.
:11:03. > :11:07.Did you walk past a group of police officers with TVs in your hands?
:11:07. > :11:13.Yes. People were brazen, people are very brazen, people without masks
:11:13. > :11:16.and ballies on running out of shops. That night, it was like you were
:11:16. > :11:20.invincible. We will remember this. Something to tell the grand kids.
:11:20. > :11:25.Something to tell the kids when I'm older. Every time I go back into
:11:25. > :11:28.town I will think the shops got smashed up in 2011 by all of us.
:11:28. > :11:31.Laugh about it every time I go back in there.
:11:31. > :11:36.There was no concern for the victims. I asked whether they felt
:11:36. > :11:42.they were part of society? Do you feel as if you are disenfranchised
:11:42. > :11:46.is the phrase, that you don't have a stake in society? It was a main
:11:46. > :11:51.factor. You could do anything to get more money, won't you. And
:11:51. > :11:54.other people have got money. So, why can't we. For all the poverty
:11:54. > :11:58.and all your background, do you take responsibility for your own
:11:58. > :12:02.actions? Yeah. You take responsibility for your actions?
:12:02. > :12:05.want to say no, I didn't have to do it, but I thought I would do it.
:12:05. > :12:10.was your choice and your responsibility? Yeah. Do you think
:12:10. > :12:19.the police will catch either of you? No. No. No. They have nothing
:12:19. > :12:23.on me that they can find on me, everything is sold and gone.
:12:23. > :12:27.This estate is in Wythenshawe, eight miles south of Manchester,
:12:27. > :12:30.where hundreds jumped on bus, got lifts in cars and even walked into
:12:30. > :12:34.the city centre to join in the chaos.
:12:34. > :12:44.These young men admit to being there that night, but deny engaging
:12:44. > :12:45.
:12:45. > :12:49.in any lawlessness. Over here then. Who was down there in Manchester?
:12:49. > :12:55.Everyone. What did you do? didn't join in, we just watched it.
:12:55. > :13:00.We're not looters, we're not tramps. Tell me what happened, I wasn't
:13:00. > :13:05.there? There was people running at the police. At the end of the day
:13:05. > :13:12.getting their own back, innit. is also the very place where David
:13:12. > :13:17.Cameron came in 2007, to talk about the broken society. And where his
:13:17. > :13:21.photo opportunity was memorably ambushed by a local hoodie, Ryan
:13:21. > :13:27.Florence. Now David Cameron has said that pockets of society are
:13:27. > :13:32.not just broken, but sick. The Prime Minister says you guys, you
:13:33. > :13:36.represent the broken society, you know. Is society broken? No shit
:13:36. > :13:41.mate. Once you gets off his arse and gets around the estate like you,
:13:41. > :13:46.talking to us, instead of slagging us off and giving a us a bad name,
:13:46. > :13:50.until then, tell him to fuck right off. He was down here in 2007.
:13:50. > :13:55.know, Florence. He says you don't know values or the difference
:13:55. > :13:58.between right and wrong, he says this because you do it from you are
:13:58. > :14:03.from dysfunctional families, and dad isn't around. What does your
:14:03. > :14:07.dad think about you being involved in some of the axe youiveties that
:14:07. > :14:12.hit the screens - activities that you hit the screens, the looting?
:14:12. > :14:16.Got a new TV, sweet. When they parents aren't controlling the
:14:16. > :14:19.kids? My mum and dad are strict people, they couldn't stop me doing
:14:19. > :14:22.what I was doing. Serious, they tried their hardest. It is not
:14:22. > :14:27.about the parents, it is about the kids wanting to do it, do you know
:14:27. > :14:31.what I mean. If your son wanted to burgle a house, what could you do
:14:31. > :14:36.to stop him, nothing really. If I say, you are filming me, it is all
:14:36. > :14:40.good. If you tell me, how could, if the parents, if you weren't
:14:40. > :14:43.listening to your parents, is that you have no respect for your
:14:43. > :14:46.parents? It is not that I have no respect. It is a different day and
:14:46. > :14:52.age, they were growing up in the old school, it is a different day
:14:52. > :14:59.and age now. You think that you guys are growing up quicker?
:14:59. > :15:04.don't grow up, oh dear me, you have to grow up fast. Getting money to
:15:04. > :15:11.get drugs mate. Is that too many adults on drugs or kids? Everyone,
:15:11. > :15:18.mate. If you are going to distill parts
:15:18. > :15:22.of what they said comes back to the old sense of depravation, drugs,
:15:22. > :15:27.criminality. But it is interesting that one of the guys said that the
:15:27. > :15:30.parents were strict, that they tried to keep him in check, and it
:15:30. > :15:36.didn't work, because kids are becoming adults an awful lot
:15:36. > :15:39.quicker. For many I spoke to, the riots were
:15:39. > :15:45.about power, about an opportunity to challenge the rule of law, and
:15:45. > :15:49.about excitement. There was no remorse, many of these
:15:49. > :15:55.young men weighed up their options and the consequences and decided
:15:55. > :16:00.they had nothing to lose. Joining me now in the studio is
:16:01. > :16:06.Cody Lachey, who you saw in that film. Ain Kinsella, whose shop in
:16:06. > :16:12.central Manchester was looted during the riots, and the Labour MP
:16:12. > :16:16.for Hackney, Abbott. You had a highend television shop, when you
:16:16. > :16:21.hear the way the boys were talking in the film, no remorse, what do
:16:21. > :16:25.you think? Terrible, the society is what it is. Those guys basically
:16:25. > :16:28.started off before the riots, as they were, and they are still the
:16:28. > :16:33.now. It is whether or not we can control them going forward. What
:16:33. > :16:37.happened when you got to your shop? When I got to the store, basically
:16:37. > :16:41.the store was destroyed inside, and the window was put through. The
:16:41. > :16:44.grill was mangled. I stood at the front of the shop, and I was
:16:44. > :16:50.approached by numerous people who just looked like those people there,
:16:50. > :16:54.asking could they come into the store and take some more stuff
:16:54. > :16:58.while I was stood there. I tried to persuade them against it, until I
:16:58. > :17:02.was chased off by people dressed like that. On what basis did they
:17:02. > :17:06.think you wouldn't mind? Because it was free, everything was free and
:17:06. > :17:13.there was no rules. What about insurance? You're sured maid mate,
:17:13. > :17:17.you will be OK. I may be insured, but - You're insured mate, it will
:17:17. > :17:23.be OK. I may be surety but still. Everybody is disgusted watching
:17:23. > :17:26.that? It was terrifying, I had no control over this mob that kept
:17:26. > :17:31.approaching. You said yourself in the film, that you were down there
:17:31. > :17:36.to be part of the mob, when you got there you decided not to loot?
:17:36. > :17:41.dressed a certain way when I left the house as to be inconspicuous to
:17:41. > :17:46.join in with the crowd. When you hear this story, are you not
:17:46. > :17:53.absolutely ashamed of everybody's actions? I'm a very proud Mancunian,
:17:53. > :17:58.very proud, but people...You Didn't mind seeing shops smashed to
:17:58. > :18:02.smitherens? People do what they have to do to survive. This night,
:18:02. > :18:06.in Ian's words, you could take what you want. It was lawless Manchester,
:18:06. > :18:10.the police were there, to do nothing else but to maintain what
:18:10. > :18:15.was going on. Fought for Queen and country, twice in Afghanistan, you
:18:15. > :18:19.did a tour in Bosnia, you have also been a security guard for many
:18:19. > :18:26.different shops in the city, including Selfridges, why don't you
:18:26. > :18:30.turn in those looters? Because I understand, some people, what
:18:30. > :18:35.happened that night, people did off their own backs, everyone knows
:18:35. > :18:37.right from wrong and people made their own actions. We live in an
:18:37. > :18:41.impoverished society, where people do what they have to do to feed
:18:41. > :18:44.themselves and their families, that is the life we live in. You hear
:18:44. > :18:51.people in the film, your friends, saying it is something to tell the
:18:51. > :18:54.grand kids? I said that. Did you say it in what way? I said it in a
:18:55. > :19:00.sense, there was no a sense of overwhelming power against the
:19:00. > :19:04.authorities, you couldn't be touched. It was nice for the people
:19:04. > :19:08.that have got nothing to have that power. What do you think when he
:19:08. > :19:11.says it was something to tell the grand kids that is a night of
:19:11. > :19:15.power? Something to tell the grandchildren maybe, mine will hear
:19:15. > :19:18.a different story. The amount of power that these people have, I
:19:18. > :19:22.agree, they have the power, the police were there trying to control
:19:22. > :19:26.them in a very limited way. It was a different kind of riot that they
:19:26. > :19:32.have never been trained for, quite frankly, which is why they couldn't
:19:32. > :19:35.control it in London, Birmingham or Manchester. They couldn't control
:19:35. > :19:40.the way that this riot developed and the way it literally evolved in
:19:40. > :19:44.front of them. Because they were not there in Manchester to confront
:19:44. > :19:48.the police on an issue, they were there just to cause mayhem and
:19:48. > :19:52.destruction. As soon as the police turned up they ran away and did it
:19:53. > :19:56.somewhere else. The police had to chase them to another area. We all
:19:56. > :20:00.know about social media and the role it had to play. When you saw
:20:00. > :20:05.people looting in shops, it is not a picture of someone looting, there
:20:05. > :20:10.is an owner this that shop, people with jobs, you probably knew some
:20:11. > :20:14.of the shopkeepers? It is a double- edged sword for me. People went out
:20:14. > :20:18.that night to take what they could get. People struggle and do what
:20:18. > :20:23.they have to do to feed themselves and the families, that is the
:20:23. > :20:27.society we live in. 99% of the population does that without
:20:27. > :20:30.criminality? With respect, the people that came into my store, the
:20:30. > :20:36.majority of equipment that was damaged in my store, wasn't taken,
:20:36. > :20:40.it was smashed. There wasn't the need to smash a speaker to feed a
:20:40. > :20:45.family. Diane Abbott, people will be horrified to hear this
:20:45. > :20:49.conversation when people had no remorse whatsoever? Well, horrified.
:20:49. > :20:54.What you saw in Manchester was the mentality of the mob, although that
:20:54. > :20:59.is a scary film, that is not something new. Before I came out I
:20:59. > :21:04.was reading about medieval riots in London, 1,000 people smashing
:21:04. > :21:08.everything, 13 of them got hanged. The Gordon riots in the 18th
:21:08. > :21:11.century. That doesn't excuse this? I'm not saying that. There is
:21:11. > :21:16.something about the mentality of the mob. People, you know, people
:21:16. > :21:20.get fuelled by it. It is like football hooligans, I'm not giving
:21:20. > :21:24.them the excuse, I'm saying you have to understand it, and the mob
:21:24. > :21:29.makes people feel empowered, and periodically, every century, even,
:21:29. > :21:35.a city like London will have frightening riots, it is not new.
:21:35. > :21:40.That's my point. That is his he troo, let's say, - history, is it
:21:40. > :21:44.not disgusting that nobody in that film expressed remorse? They don't
:21:44. > :21:48.have any social contract with society rightly or wrongly. That is
:21:48. > :21:52.why they don't express remorse, they don't feel they have a stake
:21:52. > :21:55.in society, that is why they don't express remorse. Let's be clear
:21:56. > :22:01.they are not the whole of the young people in Manchester or a fraction
:22:01. > :22:05.of the young people in Manchester. No, but a pretty destructive group?
:22:05. > :22:08.There is a danger of demonising all young people seeing a film like.
:22:09. > :22:12.That they don't have a stake in society. What can be done? We need
:22:12. > :22:17.to win back control of the streets, we kind have done, it rained,
:22:17. > :22:21.people don't come out in the rain. Secondly, some how you have, Cody
:22:21. > :22:27.is the one to say, what could politicians do to make young men
:22:27. > :22:31.like that think they had any stake in society? Right, just from our
:22:31. > :22:35.perspective, I have grown up in the same society, my mum and dad taught
:22:35. > :22:41.me right from wrong, people make their own decisions, come hell or
:22:41. > :22:45.high water. We look at MPs, look at the expenses scandal, right, if
:22:45. > :22:50.these people that are running the country and have a say in society
:22:50. > :22:55.are cutting corners and doing the taxpayer out of money, how can they
:22:55. > :22:59.point the finger at us who have nothing and belittle us. What
:22:59. > :23:02.should we do, that's what I need to know. Ian is something who has
:23:02. > :23:09.suffered that? I can't take that as an argument, with the greatest will
:23:09. > :23:12.in the world, the MPs doing what they did with expenses. Stealing is
:23:12. > :23:18.stealing. I have no objective to, that they have gone and suffered
:23:18. > :23:20.for it. With the greatest will in the world, it doesn't excuse the
:23:21. > :23:27.mob mentality, unfortunately the mob mentality took over the city
:23:27. > :23:31.that night, if they carried on, I said this on camera on the nigh f
:23:31. > :23:35.they carried on the following night, without the rain, there would have
:23:35. > :23:39.been nothing left. If I can ask you before we finish, you know these
:23:39. > :23:44.people and you talk to them, could this happen again? Very easily.
:23:44. > :23:48.This wasn't orchestrated, if this was orchestrated, places like
:23:48. > :23:51.Selfridge, an affluent shop, some of the watches worth hundreds of
:23:51. > :23:54.thousands of pounds, if it was orchestrated they were the shops
:23:54. > :23:58.that would have gone first. The police are talking about cutting
:23:58. > :24:00.numbers. The police couldn't maintain that many people f it was
:24:00. > :24:04.orchestrated and more people came the police couldn't do anything
:24:04. > :24:09.about it. Could it happen again? could, but there is way of
:24:09. > :24:13.controlling it. It is literally, it is read the riot act, use their
:24:13. > :24:17.media against them, send them a text, send them on Bebo and
:24:17. > :24:21.Facebook, if you are in the city centre, intending to riot, you will
:24:21. > :24:27.then have a curfew. That is not strong enough. We have to go beyond
:24:27. > :24:35.that to the whole issue of jobs and education. But the long-term needs
:24:35. > :24:39.different answers. We've got no prospects, that is why people do
:24:39. > :24:42.what they do they have no prospects, no jobs, no nothing, that is why
:24:42. > :24:47.they struggle. Indeed, one of the solutions the Government identified
:24:47. > :24:50.in the aftermath of the riots improving the employment prospects
:24:50. > :24:56.for disaffected young people. Workers from Eastern Europe still
:24:56. > :24:58.believe there is a market for their skills in Britain. During the last
:24:58. > :25:04.week, David Cameron promised a reduced net immigration to this
:25:04. > :25:08.country in the tens of thousands rather than the hundreds of
:25:08. > :25:12.thousands. But last year it was up 21% on the year before. Where does
:25:12. > :25:19.it leave the Prime Minister's pledge, and their plans to get more
:25:19. > :25:25.people into work. Immigration is simply too high at
:25:25. > :25:28.the moment. If you look at what's happening
:25:28. > :25:32.with immigration, the difference between what's happening with
:25:32. > :25:35.people going to live overseas and those here, it is often as high as
:25:35. > :25:39.200,000, I want to us bring immigration down so it is in the
:25:40. > :25:42.tens of thousands, not the hundreds of thousands.
:25:42. > :25:45.Ed Miliband's response to that election promise was to say he
:25:45. > :25:50.wouldn't match it, because he didn't think David Cameron could
:25:50. > :25:57.deliver on it. So what must the Prime Minister be thinking today?
:25:57. > :26:05.On his watch, net migration has risen to 240,000, that's an
:26:05. > :26:10.increase of 4%. For a Government which made immigration one of its
:26:10. > :26:13.top priorities, that is a problem, not just from the opposition
:26:13. > :26:16.benches. It shows the task of getting immigration, or net
:26:16. > :26:21.immigration down to tens of thousands is going to be a
:26:21. > :26:24.difficult one. And we'll have to make a lot of choices which will be
:26:25. > :26:29.controversial. We may have to go further than the policies already
:26:30. > :26:35.announced. We could well follow the Scandinavians and have a much
:26:35. > :26:41.higher age for people coming here for marriage, and that would reduce
:26:41. > :26:44.the use of marriage as a proxy for immigration rights. And it's not
:26:44. > :26:49.just net migration that's making problems for the Government, it is
:26:49. > :26:53.who is getting a job. The latest official figures show more than
:26:53. > :26:56.two-thirds of all extra jobs created last year went to foreign
:26:56. > :27:00.nationals. The picture is complicated. Every year a very
:27:00. > :27:05.large number of jobs are disappearing, and an equally large
:27:05. > :27:09.number, or you hope in good times, and an even larger number is
:27:09. > :27:15.created. Of that the total number of jobs changing hands in the
:27:15. > :27:18.economy, about 85% go to people here, only 10-15% go to foreigners.
:27:19. > :27:22.It is true to say of the extra jobs created, the net difference between
:27:22. > :27:25.one that is were just replacing other jobs that disappeared, or the
:27:25. > :27:29.extra, a large proportion of it is made up by people coming into the
:27:29. > :27:32.country, not having a job before, and now they are getting a job in
:27:32. > :27:38.Britain for the first time. Another survey of employers, out this week,
:27:38. > :27:43.gives cause for concern. In 2010, a third of employers were prepared to
:27:43. > :27:47.hire British 17 and 18-year-olds, now only a quarter are look to go
:27:47. > :27:53.do so. That is the same proportion that want to employ foreign workers
:27:53. > :27:58.from the EU, a record high and in direct response to the Government's
:27:58. > :28:02.cap on non-EU immigration. The real challenge for the
:28:02. > :28:05.Government is not to talk about reducing immigration from outside
:28:05. > :28:07.the EU, hoping that will make employers turn to young people
:28:07. > :28:11.already here, because the evidence shows that is not happening, they
:28:11. > :28:16.will turn to people from inside the EU, to Eastern Europe, with numbers
:28:16. > :28:21.are rising. The challenge is to look at skills, vocational training,
:28:21. > :28:25.apprenticeships for young people and try to get them more attracted
:28:25. > :28:29.to employment. Today's figures show a huge rise in net migration of
:28:29. > :28:34.workers like these, from Eastern Europe, up to 39,000 from just
:28:34. > :28:38.5,000 last year. The other big factor is a steep drop in people
:28:38. > :28:42.emigrating from the UK. We can't control people who have the right
:28:42. > :28:46.to move within the EU. Certainly and obviously no Government should
:28:46. > :28:50.try to control the emigration of its own citizens, what it is
:28:50. > :28:56.sensible for Governments to do is control what it can control, which
:28:57. > :29:01.is people coming here from outside the EU. Just last week the office
:29:01. > :29:06.of national statistics said 35% of all new extra shops are going to
:29:06. > :29:09.foreign nationals, why is that happening? In various sectors this
:29:09. > :29:13.country has become addicted to immigration, and like weaning
:29:13. > :29:16.anyone off an addiction, it requires time, and it requires
:29:16. > :29:21.patience, and it requires perseverance. That is what we are
:29:21. > :29:25.doing. We need a better balanced immigration system, we need lower
:29:25. > :29:29.immigration into this country, we also need a better skilled work
:29:29. > :29:33.force. But the Home Office says there are no plans to change the
:29:33. > :29:38.Prime Minister's ambitious target for reducing migration. No, none at
:29:38. > :29:43.all, it is very important that we get immigration at a sustainable
:29:43. > :29:46.level, not just for our economy, but also the wider health of
:29:46. > :29:50.society. If people have confidence in the immigration system, some of
:29:50. > :29:55.the social stresss and strains we have seen in recent years go away.
:29:55. > :30:00.It is still a vote-winning message, but the reality is last year, the
:30:01. > :30:04.number of people moving to the UK, was the same as the population of
:30:04. > :30:08.Stoke-on-Trent. That's under a Conservative-led Government. To
:30:08. > :30:18.keep their supporters on side, they will have to do more than hope for
:30:18. > :30:19.
:30:19. > :30:22.better figures next year. As we came on air, there were
:30:22. > :30:27.reports that the fledgling Libyan Government has announced it is
:30:27. > :30:31.moving to Tripoli, but that doesn't seem to be their only concern.
:30:31. > :30:35.Yesterday the head of the Libyan transitional council was in Paris,
:30:35. > :30:40.and today in Istanbul, everywhere, asking for money. It seems to have
:30:40. > :30:46.paid off, Italy agreed to release $500 million in frozen assets, and
:30:46. > :30:52.a deal was reached with the UN to release billions of funds. We're in
:30:52. > :30:57.Benghazi where the Government in waiting is still there. Any news of
:30:57. > :31:03.the rebels move to Tripoli? Several ministers have already moved to
:31:03. > :31:06.Tripoli. Others are expected to follow shortly. But the head of the
:31:06. > :31:11.transitional council, Mustafa Abdel-Jalil, most people think he
:31:11. > :31:14.won't follow for some days, at the very least. Basically, there are
:31:14. > :31:18.still considerable security concerns, and obviously members of
:31:18. > :31:22.the council are very obvious targets for Gaddafi loyalists. The
:31:22. > :31:26.problem is to balance the security considerations against the danger
:31:26. > :31:30.of creating a political vacuum, in Tripoli. Really they need an
:31:30. > :31:34.inclusive Government in control, in Tripoli, as soon as possible. I
:31:34. > :31:38.think whatever happens there is bound to be very robust political
:31:38. > :31:44.jockeying for positions in Tripoli in the weeks to come. We have just
:31:44. > :31:49.heard about the UN deal on relosing assets, how badly does the National
:31:49. > :31:54.Transitional Council need money? Basically, it is a liquidity
:31:54. > :31:58.problem a shortage of physical cash. In towns which have been besieged
:31:58. > :32:03.for a long time, like Misrata, people haven't had wages for months
:32:03. > :32:06.and months, even here in the east, where there hasn't been much
:32:06. > :32:10.fighting for months, people are getting a fraction of their
:32:10. > :32:14.salaries, or only intermittently. This isn't just an economic problem,
:32:14. > :32:17.but a political problem. People are saying they fought so hard for
:32:17. > :32:21.victory over Gaddafi, they want to see the economic fruits of that.
:32:21. > :32:25.The other thing talked about here is the return of the Lockerbie
:32:25. > :32:31.bomber, Al-Megrahi, there has been calls for his return. What are
:32:32. > :32:34.people saying there? This is a very interesting question. Obviously Al-
:32:34. > :32:39.Megrahi was released to come back here, two years ago, on the basis
:32:39. > :32:45.that he was about to die. He is still alive. But, on the other hand,
:32:45. > :32:49.of course, this was a decision very spesif clo of the Scottish
:32:49. > :32:55.Executive, it would be - specifically, of the Scottish
:32:55. > :33:00.Executive, they would have to ask for them back. It would be their
:33:00. > :33:03.First Minister, Alex Salmond admitting they made a mistake. In
:33:03. > :33:08.practice demands for Al-Megrahi to to be returned are more likity to
:33:08. > :33:11.come from the United States. We know - likely to come from the
:33:11. > :33:16.United States. We know American politicians were very unhappy about
:33:17. > :33:20.his release. When it will happen, it is too early to say. Earlier
:33:20. > :33:24.this evening I spoke to the Foreign Secretary, William Hague. How much
:33:24. > :33:28.of a problem is gad being at large and the fighting still going on, in
:33:28. > :33:32.terms of trying to create stable society and a Government? It is one
:33:32. > :33:36.of the important things, to bring him to justice. One of several
:33:36. > :33:40.important things, of course, also to bring more order and security to
:33:40. > :33:46.be established in Tripoli, for the National Transitional Council to
:33:46. > :33:50.have access to more funds. What happens to Gaddafi is one very
:33:50. > :33:55.important component. How much are the special forces from the US,
:33:55. > :33:59.France and Britain able to help on this? We don't comment on the
:33:59. > :34:03.special forces, for good reason, if we talk about them we will endanger
:34:03. > :34:06.them, we don't do that. At the moment there are reports of
:34:06. > :34:10.atrocities on both sides coming through. How important is it there
:34:10. > :34:13.isn't a power vacuum, and the transitional council gets to
:34:13. > :34:17.Tripoli? It is very important, we are encouraging them to do, that
:34:17. > :34:21.they have done a good job so far. They have done a good job in other
:34:21. > :34:25.parts of the country. I was impress bid them in Benghazi. It is
:34:25. > :34:29.difficult for them to operate in Tripoli, the sooner they can get
:34:29. > :34:32.there and establish their own administrative authority there, the
:34:32. > :34:37.better. Do you think they should be there, despite the fighting? They
:34:37. > :34:42.should get there as quickly as possible, we are actively enCo
:34:42. > :34:48.Couraging them to do that. - Encouraging them to do that as soon
:34:48. > :34:51.as possible. Will there be diplomats to help them get a civil
:34:52. > :34:57.society together? There will be shirts on the ground most
:34:57. > :35:00.definitely. We have a strong team in Benghazi, we have already had an
:35:00. > :35:03.international stablisation team, giving advice to the National
:35:04. > :35:08.Transitional Council. We can help them with advice on policing,
:35:09. > :35:13.clearing land mine, and with �20 million of immediate assistance we
:35:13. > :35:19.have set aside. There is an awful lot of money not in the country
:35:19. > :35:23.that will be needed. Most things that need to be done, wages paid,
:35:23. > :35:26.roads rebuilt, that is the sort of thing that the transitional council
:35:26. > :35:30.will need if they are going to secure authority for themselves.
:35:30. > :35:35.Can you get money there now? have made a good start on this,
:35:35. > :35:40.yesterday South Africa was the remaining reluctant country, and
:35:40. > :35:46.agreed to the release of $500 million of assets in the United
:35:46. > :35:49.States. We want a further $1 billion of dollars to be released,
:35:49. > :35:53.there are tens of billions of dollars that belong to the Libyan
:35:53. > :35:57.state, that need to be returned to them in managed way, that guards
:35:57. > :36:01.against any misaproper racial of those assets. That is one of the
:36:01. > :36:03.things we will be discussing at the UN over the next week and the Paris
:36:03. > :36:07.conference, which the Prime Minister and President Sarkozy will
:36:07. > :36:10.co-chair a week from now. worried are you about an implosion
:36:10. > :36:14.that there will be mayhem and lawlessness, which seems to be
:36:14. > :36:18.rising up now? We should always be concerned about any chaotic
:36:18. > :36:22.situation. But, of course, there have been concerns all the way
:36:22. > :36:26.along. People said we couldn't get a resolution, then we couldn't
:36:26. > :36:30.enforce a no-fly zone, a permanent stalemate, now the concern is will
:36:30. > :36:34.there be a situation that is too chaotic for too long in Tripoli.
:36:35. > :36:37.That is why we are doing all these things to try to release the funds
:36:37. > :36:40.and get the National Transitional Council there, and get more
:36:40. > :36:45.international recognition for them, so the people of Libya can see
:36:45. > :36:48.there has been a fundamental change. Are you going to demand the return
:36:48. > :36:51.of Al-Megrahi from the transitional council, while they are in power?
:36:51. > :36:54.This is a matter for the Scottish ministers, as you know, they took
:36:54. > :36:57.the decision to release them, the Prime Minister and I were in
:36:57. > :37:01.opposition at the time, we strongly disapproved of the decision. I said
:37:01. > :37:05.earlier this week, if I was a Scottish minister I would look at
:37:05. > :37:09.this again, and review it to see what I could do. If they want, if
:37:09. > :37:16.in Scotland they want the active support of the UK Government in
:37:16. > :37:21.seeking information about him and supporting any representations they
:37:21. > :37:25.want to make about him, they will get energetic support. Finally on
:37:25. > :37:29.Syria, there is not even support for a sanctions resolution, but if
:37:29. > :37:34.there is, soon, a democracy in Libya, if things calm down, will
:37:34. > :37:38.that embolden the UN, and David Cameron to suggest that actually
:37:38. > :37:42.there should be a similar action in Syria? Syria is a different case.
:37:42. > :37:47.In Libya we have acted with full legal and international authority,
:37:47. > :37:53.and strong support from within the region. Syria clearly is in a
:37:53. > :37:58.different category in that sense. The pressure that we can afly on
:37:58. > :38:03.Syria - apply on Syria is different in nature. If we want to stay
:38:03. > :38:07.within the international law. Libya the idea was to protect
:38:07. > :38:10.civilian, civilians are in trouble in Syria? That's right, but it is
:38:10. > :38:16.also important we act with full legal and international authority.
:38:16. > :38:20.What we are doing is steadily ramping up the sanctions on Syria,
:38:20. > :38:26.we announced additional sanctions alongside the US this week, and
:38:26. > :38:32.more EU sangss coming up this week. The message will go out, as Libya
:38:32. > :38:35.embraces a free, democratic and inclusive future, that tyrants or
:38:35. > :38:42.authoritarian rulers cannot stand permanently against the wishes of
:38:42. > :38:47.their population, to have a free future.
:38:47. > :38:55.As America faces the prospect of borrowing $125 billion every month,
:38:55. > :39:04.just to patient bills. What does the future really hold for the
:39:04. > :39:11.superpower. The writer Mark Steyn see as post apocalyptic situation,
:39:11. > :39:16.and Armageddon. Here is where he thinks Uncle Sam is heading. It is
:39:16. > :39:21.the Apocalypse Soon thesis, the idea that the time of America's
:39:21. > :39:25.economic domination is over, and others, like China are set to fill
:39:25. > :39:31.their shoes. After predicting the collapse of the rest of the western
:39:31. > :39:38.world in his first book, America Alone, he argues in After America,
:39:38. > :39:44.that the rush for self-destruction has hit America. It is his aspirin
:39:44. > :39:48.against the drunkle sailor policies in Washington. He starts with the
:39:48. > :39:52.money, Obama's non-stimulating stimulus, impending financial
:39:52. > :39:58.collapse, before lambasting the whom culture in America, the shift
:39:58. > :40:04.away from the can-do spirit, to the can-do with some Government
:40:04. > :40:10.spending spirit. It is the kids picking up the check after the old
:40:10. > :40:15.timers' almighty bender. Live free or die, from 1,000 soothing
:40:15. > :40:21.caresses of the nanny state is the mantra to the young. Steyn's mantra
:40:21. > :40:24.is strip way Government, decentralise, demonopolise,
:40:25. > :40:28.decredentialise, anything to force the status out of our pockets and
:40:28. > :40:34.out of our lives. But he's clear that the fall will not be pretty,
:40:35. > :40:39.and not be gradue. His forecast predicts a slide within - gradual,
:40:39. > :40:45.his forecast predictss a slide within the next ten years. He
:40:45. > :40:51.thinks the US is big enough to fail, and heading towards being the next
:40:51. > :40:57.empire to shop until it drops, literally. The bubble about to pop
:40:57. > :41:00.isn't the property market or cheap credit, it is the US of the 21st
:41:00. > :41:03.century itself. The author joins me now. Do you
:41:03. > :41:09.think that America is in a worse position than Europe? I think so,
:41:09. > :41:13.if only because the sums of money are so much greater. I mean, when a
:41:13. > :41:18.multitrillion dollar disaster slides off the cliff it lands with
:41:18. > :41:22.a much bigger thud than Iceland and Portugal. But America is richer and
:41:22. > :41:26.bigger to withstand it? I don't think, I think you can do the debt
:41:26. > :41:30.to GDP comparisons, in the end, here the hard money sums are so
:41:30. > :41:35.hugement we are talking about America depending on the rest of
:41:35. > :41:41.the planet being willing to sink 20% of its entire GDP into US
:41:41. > :41:44.Treasury debt by 2020, that is astonishing Are you really
:41:44. > :41:48.suggesting that western civilisation is over? Basically
:41:48. > :41:53.yeah. I think it gets back to what you were talking about earlier. I
:41:53. > :41:57.think the downgraded credit rating in America, and the downgraded
:41:57. > :42:03.human capital on the streets of Manchester, we saw earlier, are
:42:03. > :42:07.actually part of the same story. The really evil thing about big
:42:07. > :42:12.Government is not just the waste of money, but the waste of people.
:42:12. > :42:17.if big Government hadn't stepped in America in 2008, the ATMs would
:42:17. > :42:20.have had no money in them, people wouldn't just lose their houses but
:42:20. > :42:25.loot anything their houses, they had to step in there, didn't they,
:42:25. > :42:28.even for a short fix? I don't think so. I think we're beyond short
:42:28. > :42:34.fixes. This is what the western world is up against, its business
:42:34. > :42:39.model is unsustainable. I don't agrow with Abbott on a lot, as she
:42:39. > :42:44.- agree with First Orbit object on a lot, as thee would agree. - Diane
:42:44. > :42:48.Abbott a lot, as she would agree. But the heart of it is people have
:42:48. > :42:53.to have a stake in society, in Greece, in Germany, here,
:42:53. > :42:57.increasingly in the United States, too many people don't. You were the
:42:57. > :43:02.man who was all for no regulation, and look where no regulation got us
:43:02. > :43:07.with the banks, and sub-prime mortgages, people buying houses
:43:07. > :43:10.they couldn't afford, the American dream? The sub-prime mortgage was
:43:10. > :43:17.invented by Government. The United States Government decided that
:43:18. > :43:20.banks could no longer make rational calculation of risk, it destroyed
:43:21. > :43:24.two of the bedrocks of free societies, the property market,
:43:24. > :43:29.there is about twice as many three bedroom homes as anyone needs in
:43:29. > :43:32.America, and the banking system. Those are two of the pillars of a
:43:32. > :43:38.free society. Are you really saying that things are no fragile that
:43:38. > :43:41.America might fail? I think so, I think by 2015, when you have US
:43:42. > :43:44.tax-payers simply through the interest on the debt, funding the
:43:44. > :43:48.entire cost of the Chinese People's Liberation Army, there is no
:43:48. > :43:55.precedent for that. No precedent for that. You, I always think, are
:43:55. > :43:59.the person who is the big defender of western civilisation and you
:43:59. > :44:04.have turned turtle? I'm saying I don't want to slide off the cliff,
:44:04. > :44:11.but we are hanging by our fingernails, and to get back on
:44:11. > :44:14.solid ground...I think this is not just as when Britain went to
:44:14. > :44:21.America, this is a profound civilisational shift such as we
:44:21. > :44:23.have not seen in centuries. Do you believe that Islamic civilisation,
:44:23. > :44:28.Indian civilisation, Chinese civilisation could teach as you lot
:44:28. > :44:35.about the way to live? No, I think we are looking at a world where you
:44:35. > :44:43.will have an economically strong China, a demo graphically strong
:44:43. > :44:49.Islam, sharing in not a lot of the world wealth. The packs- America
:44:49. > :44:55.and packs-British exchange was smooth. Here we would have no world
:44:55. > :44:58.order. What about the rule of law and rule of democracy? I like that,
:44:58. > :45:02.what is fascinating about watching the fellas in your film about
:45:02. > :45:05.Manchester, where is the rule of law and democracy, the regional
:45:05. > :45:09.powers anywhere round the planet, Canada, South Africa, India,
:45:09. > :45:11.Australia, what do those countries have in common, how come people on
:45:11. > :45:16.the streets of Manchester don't know that. Thank you very much
:45:16. > :45:26.indeed. Just tomorrow morning's front pages,
:45:26. > :45:35.
:45:35. > :45:40.the Telegraph, new EU job rights That's all from Newsnight tonight.
:45:40. > :45:44.Tomorrow night Paul Mason will be here. It is seven years since Alex
:45:44. > :45:48.Ferguson gave the BBC his hair dryer treatment and refused to
:45:48. > :45:52.speak to us, good news, the parties have kissed and made up, for now,
:45:52. > :45:59.any way. Good night.
:45:59. > :46:09.# I hold no grudge # There's no resentment on me
:46:09. > :46:11.
:46:11. > :46:21.# I'll extend the Laurel wreath # And we'll be friends
:46:21. > :46:28.
:46:28. > :46:31.Hello, more heavy rain is arriving, it will be a wet day, particularly
:46:31. > :46:34.across eastern England on Friday. Elsewhere, spells of sunshine,
:46:34. > :46:39.there will also be showers. Particularly soggy in eastern
:46:39. > :46:43.England, the rain working its way up through the North Sea. Miserable
:46:43. > :46:46.conditions on the beaches of north- east England, temperatures 15-16
:46:47. > :46:50.Celsius. Some of the rain across into the Midlands, wet in East
:46:50. > :46:55.Anglia, the south-east may brighten up, more showers drifting in off
:46:55. > :46:58.the channel across the southern most counties of England. Sunny
:46:58. > :47:01.spells and scattered showers, in Wales, like today, some of the
:47:01. > :47:04.showers will be powerful. With the risk of a thunderstorm developing
:47:04. > :47:08.almost anywhere. Temperatures high teens at best, a sprinkling of
:47:08. > :47:12.showers in Northern Ireland. There should be some sunshine here. It
:47:12. > :47:16.may just start a little bit foggy, a scattering of showers also across
:47:16. > :47:19.Scotland. A chance here of some places staying dry. It is not the
:47:19. > :47:23.last. We are expecting the wet weather in eastern England to
:47:23. > :47:27.transfer northwards, it looks like being a very wet and windy Saturday
:47:27. > :47:31.across a good part of Scotland. Gales or severe gale, especially on
:47:31. > :47:35.the north coast. Further south the weather will remain mixed on
:47:35. > :47:38.Saturday. Some sunshine, but there will also be showers. Wherever you
:47:38. > :47:42.are there will be a brisk breeze, blowing. Bringing the showers