:00:09. > :00:13.This programme contains some scenes viewers might find disturbing.
:00:13. > :00:21.Power cuts, water running out, casualties untreated, and the
:00:21. > :00:24.would-be Government 400 miles away. Who can impose order on the chaos
:00:24. > :00:27.in Tripoli. As the bodies pile up, who will bring law and order to the
:00:27. > :00:32.shattered city. As the law in Libya comes
:00:32. > :00:35.splutering to an end, we will ask whether the National Transitional
:00:35. > :00:40.Council, based here in Benghazi, what we have been calling until now,
:00:40. > :00:43.the rebel leadership, is ready to take over the running of the whole
:00:43. > :00:48.country. The vice chairman of Libya's interim Government talks to
:00:48. > :00:52.us live. Also tonight. Despite a lifetime on the Telegraph,
:00:52. > :00:57.I have recently been accused of being a lefty. Tont on Newsnight I
:00:57. > :01:02.want to set the record - tonight on Newsnight I want to set the record
:01:02. > :01:07.straight. We go to the heart of trying to find an alternative to
:01:07. > :01:11.crony capitalism. Comrade Moore, welcome to the
:01:11. > :01:21.Guardian. Alien territory. More like your spiritual home. We talk
:01:21. > :01:22.
:01:22. > :01:26.to a man with the ear of Government and a real left-winger.
:01:26. > :01:30.Good evening. There was bloody fighting today in the southern
:01:30. > :01:35.suburbs of Tripoli and chaos in many parts of the Libyan capital.
:01:35. > :01:41.But the leaders of the transitional council, recognised by the west as
:01:41. > :01:46.the legitimate Government, remain stuck in the city of Benghazi, 400
:01:46. > :01:49.miles away. The peers in the African Union remain unimpressed,
:01:49. > :01:53.they fail to recognise their authority, and called for talks
:01:53. > :01:56.with the remnants of the Gaddafi regime. The where abouts of Gaddafi
:01:56. > :02:01.remains unknown. I will speak to one of the leaders of the
:02:01. > :02:06.transition aal Government in a moment, first we're in Benghazi -
:02:06. > :02:11.transitional Government in a moment, first we're in Benghazi. Now that
:02:11. > :02:15.fighting has died down in the capital, Tripoli, but not stopped.
:02:15. > :02:18.Basic services must be restored, and chaos must be prevented in had
:02:18. > :02:24.place which effectively has no clear authority. We have seen the
:02:24. > :02:28.revelation of a very distressing incident today, where dozens of
:02:28. > :02:32.injured patients died in a hospital during the fighting, because they
:02:32. > :02:36.simply weren't treated at all, it seems. That's in the past, but
:02:36. > :02:40.there is other kind of disorder people are afraid of now, they are
:02:40. > :02:44.afraid of revenge attacks, possibly. And everyone, as you say, is
:02:44. > :02:47.suffering from a lack of basic water supplies.
:02:47. > :02:54.You have been with the leaders of this Government, they are in
:02:54. > :02:59.Benghazi, why can't they get to Tripoli? Most of them, as you say,
:02:59. > :03:03.are still in Benghazi, it is obviously agreed by everybody they
:03:03. > :03:07.must get to Tripoli as quickly as possible for effective control to
:03:07. > :03:11.be established. I was going to fly out from Benghazi to Tripoli today
:03:11. > :03:14.with an advance party of several prominent members in the council,
:03:14. > :03:19.we waited around all day, we never took off at all. That is partly
:03:19. > :03:22.because of a lack of transport, it is also because of security
:03:22. > :03:25.concerns. Gaddafi loyalists are, as we have said, putting up a
:03:25. > :03:34.considerable fight, and there is a major battle going on the coast to
:03:34. > :03:39.the west of here. Half a year after war broke out
:03:39. > :03:43.along Libya's coast, rebels were racing today to try to deal a final
:03:43. > :03:47.blow to Colonel Gaddafi's forces, in their last major stronghold.
:03:47. > :03:51.Reinforcements rumbled along the road to Sirte, the dictator's birth
:03:51. > :03:55.players between Tripoli and Benghazi, aided by RAF bombers,
:03:55. > :04:03.which pounded a bunker in the town. Final victory in the conflict,
:04:03. > :04:07.these fighters believe, can't now be far off. Back along the coast in
:04:07. > :04:11.Benghazi...$$NEWLINE The town that was originally spearheading the
:04:11. > :04:14.revolt, they are still keen to spearhead some military discipline
:04:14. > :04:20.into their young people. But the struggle against Gaddafi is coming
:04:20. > :04:23.to an end. The struggle to begin a new Libya is just beginning. The
:04:23. > :04:25.National Transitional Council, based in Benghazi, and the
:04:25. > :04:29.Executive Committee, have been trying for months to act like a
:04:29. > :04:33.parliament, and a Government in waiting. Considering post-war
:04:33. > :04:38.scenario, even drafting an elaborate transitional constitution.
:04:38. > :04:41.But the real test of this legitimacy, and its capability,
:04:41. > :04:45.won't come here in Benghazi, it will come in the months to come in
:04:45. > :04:50.the capital, Tripoli. But first, the council has to pack
:04:50. > :04:54.its bags and move to Tripoli. Today, some council members,
:04:54. > :04:58.including those representing the capital, came to Benghazi Airport,
:04:58. > :05:02.ready for the risky journey to a city where some pro-Gaddafi forces
:05:02. > :05:07.are still active. For this former comrade of Gaddafi,
:05:07. > :05:15.who helped him come to power in 1969, but later tried to overthrow
:05:15. > :05:19.him, and was punished by 15 years in jail, it was an emotional moment.
:05:19. > :05:24.TRANSLATION: I consider my age to be six months, as I do not count
:05:24. > :05:30.the years I lived without freedom. I had been waiting for this moment
:05:30. > :05:33.for 36 years. I was so closed to Gaddafi, but I realised his true
:05:33. > :05:37.intentions, he ruined our dreams and wasted our lives. The first
:05:38. > :05:40.task of this advance party will be to prepare for the full move of the
:05:40. > :05:46.council and the transitional Government over the next week, and
:05:46. > :05:51.then the job will be to get normal life functioning again. Bringing
:05:51. > :05:58.the institution back to work, local Government, security, making sure
:05:58. > :06:03.that we plan accordingly that the year will be starting for school a
:06:03. > :06:06.month from now. We have to prepare for it. The financial issues, aid
:06:06. > :06:09.issues, hospital issues. Council members are mainly professional,
:06:09. > :06:14.from all over the country, skilled in administration, industry,
:06:14. > :06:17.banking or law. But they have been chosen, not elected. And the
:06:17. > :06:21.council's military men may not be accepted by some rebels around
:06:21. > :06:28.Tripoli, who feel they won the battle for the capital, largely by
:06:28. > :06:36.their own efforts. How far do you think that Tripoli will recognise
:06:36. > :06:40.the authority of the NTC? It has already been recognised by the
:06:40. > :06:46.whole country. I don't know where you get this news, because it is
:06:46. > :06:51.the legitimate one which is presenting all the Libyan peopleing,
:06:51. > :06:56.because some liberated cities already they chose their ones, the
:06:56. > :07:00.one that hasn't chosen, the city which has not liberated. That's why
:07:01. > :07:06.some people they have concerns, maybe that now they have the time
:07:06. > :07:10.to either these members have to stay or leave, accordingly chosen
:07:10. > :07:17.by the local city. Once they have established themselves, the new
:07:17. > :07:20.authorities will have to deal with those who fought for Gaddafi.
:07:20. > :07:23.TRANSLATION: Lots of officers fighting for Gaddafi and against us,
:07:23. > :07:30.have surrendered. We are not Gaddafi, so we are treating them
:07:30. > :07:34.well, and can guarantee a fair and transparent trial for them. After
:07:34. > :07:37.hours of sitting around, the authorities in waiting were still
:07:37. > :07:41.waiting. Everyone agrees it is important for the National
:07:41. > :07:45.Transitional Council to establish its authority in Tripoli as soon as
:07:45. > :07:48.possible, to prevent a political vacuum there. The point was
:07:48. > :07:52.underlined again yesterday by British Foreign Secretary, William
:07:52. > :07:55.Hague, speaking for the council's western backers. But here on the
:07:55. > :07:59.ground, things are moving slowly. Partly out of security concerns
:07:59. > :08:05.about the situation in Tripoli, partly simply because of lack of
:08:05. > :08:11.organisation. Normally energetic people, seizing
:08:11. > :08:18.a rare chance to dose during the Ramadan fast, they were frustrated
:08:18. > :08:23.by the lack of transport. First we were to leave at 1.00, then delayed
:08:23. > :08:29.to 4.30, now another hour, maybe 5.30 we leave from here. Why is it
:08:29. > :08:32.taking so long? Logistic and organisational, you know. Far away
:08:32. > :08:39.in Tripoli, the few interim ministers who have arrived say the
:08:39. > :08:46.new Government is already getting down to work. The beginning of and
:08:46. > :08:51.the are you sum of the work of the executive office and free Tripoli
:08:51. > :08:54.as of this moment. There is an element, perhaps, of wishful
:08:54. > :09:03.thinking. However eager Libyans are to put their country back in order,
:09:03. > :09:07.it will be a long and bumpy process. I'm joined now by Abdul Hafiz Ghoga,
:09:07. > :09:10.vice chairman of the Transitonal National Council, who is in
:09:10. > :09:19.Benghazi. Good evening, how important is it to catch Colonel
:09:19. > :09:25.Gaddafi, and catch him fast? It is very important to catch Gaddafi,
:09:25. > :09:31.that is our revolution is won, and we control all the country, but it
:09:31. > :09:35.is very important to catch Gaddafi. Then we can announce to the whole
:09:35. > :09:45.world our win in Libya, our revolution is then won.
:09:45. > :09:46.
:09:46. > :09:53.Where do you think he is? I think that's to be soon. Today many
:09:53. > :10:00.members of our NTC, more than eight members flying to Tripoli through
:10:00. > :10:06.Misrata city, to join our Executive Committee members, who arrive in
:10:06. > :10:11.Tripoli, to manage the cries from Tripoli, now our situation is
:10:11. > :10:16.better, it is going well. Our revolution is controlling the city.
:10:16. > :10:22.They are looking for Gaddafi and Gaddafi's family in the whole of
:10:22. > :10:25.Tripoli. So the situation is going well. We hope that's within a few
:10:25. > :10:29.days we will finish this crisis. You say the situation is going well,
:10:29. > :10:34.you have got the money, you have the embassies, you don't seem to
:10:34. > :10:44.have control in Tripoli. How soon are you going to get control in
:10:44. > :10:45.
:10:45. > :10:54.Tripoli? I think that financially our situations is now looking good,
:10:54. > :11:01.I committee is doing the process of unfreezing the outside assets. I
:11:01. > :11:08.think the situation, the finances will be a good situation within a
:11:08. > :11:12.few days. That's all. So we have seen reports of people
:11:12. > :11:17.without water, without electricity, hospitals not working, that's not a
:11:17. > :11:27.functioning capital city, how quickly can the TNC get a grip of
:11:27. > :11:28.
:11:28. > :11:37.this? I think that's yesterday and the day before. The Contact Group
:11:37. > :11:45.meeting in Doha to arrange for this situation. I think they promised to
:11:45. > :11:52.unfreeze the Libyan assets to give the money to our NTC. And then we
:11:52. > :12:02.can manage all. Now our situation in this Tripoli, it's better than
:12:02. > :12:02.
:12:03. > :12:11.before, when Gaddafi controlled Tripoli they had no telephone, no
:12:11. > :12:15.internet. Now this service is provided to Tripoli, our members of
:12:15. > :12:23.the Executive Committee, they do their efforts within three days
:12:23. > :12:29.previously. I think that the situation is now better in Tripoli.
:12:29. > :12:36.And we hope that we can serve. will you arrive in Tripoli, when
:12:36. > :12:41.will the whole NTC get there and take control of the situation?
:12:41. > :12:47.eight of our NTC members are staying in Tripoli. They arrive in
:12:47. > :12:56.Tripoli, they work with the local committee there, the local council
:12:56. > :13:00.in Tripoli. They work together to control all the things. The risk of
:13:00. > :13:07.NT C - the hope of the NTC within a few days the security will be
:13:07. > :13:11.better in Tripoli. I think they are going to move all to Tripoli.
:13:11. > :13:15.How soon is it that you basically have to fall on international help
:13:15. > :13:20.to impose security on the streets of Tripoli. We have seen many
:13:20. > :13:23.reports today of violence, further fighting, and as I say, untreated
:13:24. > :13:31.casualties, are you prepared to call for an international force to
:13:31. > :13:37.come into Tripoli? No, no, no. We didn't ask any international force
:13:37. > :13:46.to go to Tripoli. (gunfire) We asked the international community
:13:46. > :13:51.to do their best to protect our civilians. Because for example in
:13:51. > :13:57.Zawiya, and Sirte, the Gaddafi forces attack the civilian people
:13:57. > :14:07.there, we asked the international community to continue to protect
:14:07. > :14:12.
:14:12. > :14:14.our civilians, and to recognise the United Nations council resolution
:14:14. > :14:19.1973 resolution to protect our civilians, that is what we asked
:14:20. > :14:21.for. But the forces on the ground, we refuse any foreign force in our
:14:21. > :14:27.country. Abdul Hafiz Ghoga, thank you very
:14:27. > :14:31.much. Listen to this, the rich run a
:14:31. > :14:34.global system that allows them to accumulate capital and pay the
:14:34. > :14:41.lowest possible price for labour, the freedom that results applies
:14:41. > :14:44.only to them. It is not long ago that bowly talk like that could get
:14:44. > :14:48.you drum - bolshy talk like that could get you trumed out of the
:14:48. > :14:54.Labour Party, but these are the words of Richard Moore, columnist
:14:54. > :14:58.in the Telegraph, and a Tory. The words written in disgust of the
:14:58. > :15:04.News of the World scandal and the credit crunch. We are bust morally
:15:04. > :15:14.and financially he says. I will discuss it with guests in a moment.
:15:14. > :15:25.
:15:25. > :15:29.First we sent the man himself out It has been called a plural moment,
:15:29. > :15:33.and it's said I'm Britain's newest lefty. It is perfectly true I was
:15:33. > :15:43.writing about how the right has been wrong in this crisis. But I do
:15:43. > :15:43.
:15:43. > :15:46.want to set the record straight, I'm not about to convert.
:15:46. > :15:50.I'm writing the authorised biography of Margaret Thatcher, so
:15:51. > :15:53.I apply a 30-year rule to my journalism, then and now. When she
:15:53. > :15:57.began, and when President Reagan was doing similar things in the
:15:57. > :16:02.United States, they were very good at identifying Conservative ideas
:16:02. > :16:07.with the needs of the many, not the few. For example, paying lower
:16:07. > :16:17.taxes, and not being controlled by the unions. Since then a lot of
:16:17. > :16:18.
:16:18. > :16:23.this has gone wrong. In order to discuss why the right
:16:23. > :16:26.has allowed itself to be discredited, I'm off to London to
:16:27. > :16:31.go and see Tim Montgomerie. Tim is probably the best known
:16:31. > :16:35.Conservative activist, he runs the website Conservative Home. I want
:16:35. > :16:40.him to see that there is a problem here, and once that's admitted then
:16:40. > :16:45.we can all work out what the solution might be. "cheer up, don't
:16:45. > :16:50.be so gloomy, there is never a better time to be alive, and it is
:16:50. > :16:54.right-wing policies that have done it ". I think I'm not so
:16:54. > :16:58.pessimistic as you. One of the faults of Conservatism is we can
:16:58. > :17:01.become pessimistic. We still must be the defenders of capitalism. We
:17:01. > :17:06.have never lived in an age where because of medicine and travel we
:17:06. > :17:10.have been more prosperous, and we must not give the left so much of
:17:10. > :17:15.the intellectual space that they can eat away at that. I see the
:17:15. > :17:20.point, but take the word "capitalism", how does that sound
:17:21. > :17:24.good to most people right now? Most people don't have capital. They
:17:24. > :17:28.certainly don't have capital with which they can do very much. One of
:17:28. > :17:32.the horrors of the credit crunch, is there is no God thing to do with
:17:32. > :17:36.any little - no good thing to do with any little bit of money you
:17:36. > :17:41.might have, it is not good to save or borrow. This thing called
:17:41. > :17:45.capitalism, that we go around defending, appears to be in the
:17:45. > :17:53.interests of a small number of people. I still think capitalism,
:17:53. > :17:56.while it may not be in the right wording, Tescos, apple, and others,
:17:56. > :17:59.they have been drivers of social progress, we need to defend them
:17:59. > :18:04.and say that is not enough. We also need a Government that looks after
:18:04. > :18:08.the poor and we need a moral cultural sphere where the family
:18:08. > :18:13.and other important institutions are supported. The present
:18:13. > :18:18.Conservatives seem to erb chew that, they some how don't identify the
:18:18. > :18:21.capacities of the people they govern. It is more as if they
:18:22. > :18:25.administer the people they govern, I don't hear the people where they
:18:25. > :18:28.are saying what is it like for the person trying to get better
:18:28. > :18:33.educated, or building his own house, what is it like for the person
:18:33. > :18:37.trying to start their own business. In your constant virtual
:18:37. > :18:41.conversation with the tribe, wouldn't you say that was a
:18:42. > :18:45.frustration that Conservatives feel? I think what people want more
:18:45. > :18:51.than anything else from David Cameron, and I think in a way they
:18:52. > :18:55.got from Margaret Thatcher was the truth. I think they sometimes feel
:18:55. > :18:59.like they are being given a message for today, where as what she said,
:18:59. > :19:04.and I don't think the situation is that different now compared to then,
:19:04. > :19:09.was that we are in a moment of emergency, a turning point for
:19:09. > :19:14.Britain, where we can choose the easy way of gentle decline again,
:19:14. > :19:18.or actually we can do some incredibly tough and painful things,
:19:18. > :19:28.but that will put Britain right. I think it is the lack of a sense of
:19:28. > :19:28.
:19:28. > :19:32.national mission, which I think Margaret Thatcher gave the country.
:19:32. > :19:36.Not only have the right engaged in the debate. But I have also
:19:36. > :19:41.received an invitation from the Guardian to discuss you will of
:19:41. > :19:46.this. Here I am supping with the devil and bringing my long spoon.
:19:46. > :19:49.Comrade Moore, welcome to the Guardian. Alien territory? It is
:19:49. > :19:56.more like your spiritual Millennium Dome. Are you experiencing what
:19:57. > :20:01.Margaret Thatcher might have described as a "wobble "? No, I'm
:20:01. > :20:09.claiming that the right has experienced a wobble, because it
:20:09. > :20:16.some how lost, or has forgotten what the point is. We mind our
:20:16. > :20:21.pennies here, Margaret Thatcher would be very, very impressed.
:20:21. > :20:26.If you are saying that the left have responded well. Who are you
:20:27. > :20:33.thinking of? Gordon Brown in the 2008 crisis he led the way
:20:33. > :20:37.recapitalising the banks. When I said the left people thought I
:20:37. > :20:42.meant the Labour Party, the people who have been the worst in this,
:20:42. > :20:48.are people adopting value gar Thatcherism, new Labour and Bill
:20:48. > :20:53.Clinton. They have this idea that markets, without knowing what they
:20:53. > :20:58.were, are good and you have to approve of them, and by extension
:20:58. > :21:02.bankers were also good, so there is a niavity in new Labour of adopting
:21:02. > :21:08.a religion they didn't understand. What it feels like is the men who
:21:08. > :21:12.in 1917 would have been caricatured as wearing top hats and tripey
:21:12. > :21:14.trousers are getting everything they want. And actually, - stripey
:21:14. > :21:17.trousers, they are getting everything they want. And what is
:21:17. > :21:22.worse, they are positively being paid by the taxpayer, and as far as
:21:22. > :21:25.I know in Petrograd in 1917, they weren't. You are saying the left
:21:25. > :21:30.has the right analysis, but looking forward to the future, you are
:21:30. > :21:40.saying the right has the right remedies? Yes, what the left always
:21:40. > :21:45.thinks that the answer is state power.
:21:45. > :21:48.I have had a lovely day talking to Nick, but I shan't be joining the
:21:48. > :21:53.Guardian, I will stay with the Telegraph. What is really important
:21:53. > :21:58.right now is the right should admit how much it has got on the wrong
:21:58. > :22:01.side of this argument, and some how those of us who support the free
:22:01. > :22:06.market have become identified with the powerful, and in a country
:22:06. > :22:10.which feels to be at this point both morally and actually bust.
:22:10. > :22:14.Joining me now in the studio, the man who replaced Richard Moore as
:22:14. > :22:22.the chair of the centre right think-tank, Policy Exchange, Danny
:22:22. > :22:28.Finkelstein, and the economist and author, NarinaHertz, who raised the
:22:28. > :22:31.alarm about all of this some years ago. Is he right? All political
:22:31. > :22:34.institutions produce concentrations of power, and capitalism does. You
:22:34. > :22:38.have a move towards monoply, then you have a feeling that the masses
:22:38. > :22:42.aren't getting what the elites are getting. This is particularly the
:22:42. > :22:47.case when you have a financial crash. The financial crash was
:22:47. > :22:50.caused not just by bankers lending too much to people, but people
:22:50. > :22:54.borrowing it. Everybody was involved in that. It seems a bit
:22:54. > :22:57.odd to argue this is a crisis for the right, when actually, as it
:22:58. > :23:03.were, spending social democracy ended up borrowing vast quantities
:23:03. > :23:06.of money. It made a mistake, the right has obviously got serious
:23:06. > :23:12.problems, caused by bankers and the financial system making a mistake.
:23:12. > :23:17.This is not a crisis just for the right.
:23:17. > :23:25.Do the criticisms of comrade Moore chime with you? Essentially what
:23:25. > :23:31.he's saying is we were living for 30 years through an era which I
:23:31. > :23:35.call Gucci capitalism, a period where markets were left to self-
:23:35. > :23:39.regulate, and everything would be fine, wealth would trickle down. We
:23:39. > :23:43.have seen where that took us. It took us to the financial crisis to
:23:44. > :23:48.Iris Murdoch and News International. It took us to this country - Rupert
:23:48. > :23:51.Murdoch and News International, and it took us in this country to have
:23:52. > :23:55.one of the worst record of social mobility in the world, one in nine
:23:55. > :24:04.children living in poverty. It didn't deliver. The fact that the
:24:04. > :24:07.right and left are now discussing this has to be a good thing.
:24:07. > :24:12.haven't unregulated capitalism, 45% of wealth is spent by the state. We
:24:12. > :24:16.have free education, free at the point of views education and a
:24:16. > :24:20.health service. We are discuss ago system in crisis that is not
:24:20. > :24:24.unregulated capitalism. This is a separate point. The issue is, we
:24:24. > :24:27.have had this huge concentration of wealth at the top, not with
:24:27. > :24:31.standing the fact that everybody took part in the consumer and
:24:31. > :24:36.credit boom. How is this playing with the front end of politics, the
:24:36. > :24:40.sharp end, the George Osborne, David Cameron access? I think that
:24:40. > :24:44.any Government would have a really big problem at the moment, what
:24:44. > :24:47.people wanted was a system was where people felt they put a lot in,
:24:47. > :24:51.and they are not getting it out. And the problem at the moment is
:24:51. > :24:58.they can't get it out, because there is nothing to get out. We're
:24:58. > :25:00.in a massive financial crisis, the Government, all over the world
:25:00. > :25:03.there is sovereign debt crisis. The Government is trying to answer a
:25:03. > :25:08.problem that is very difficult without any money. But the
:25:08. > :25:15.Government can still make choices, they could make choice about who,
:25:15. > :25:20.at this time, reaps whatever moneys they do have. At the moment
:25:20. > :25:24.regional inequality is so bad here. Lack of investment in the north,
:25:24. > :25:30.lack of infrastructure, gender inequality, growing now in the wake
:25:30. > :25:34.of the cuts. More women unemployed than at any time since 1988. I mean,
:25:34. > :25:39.the Government does have a responsibility. There are serious
:25:39. > :25:43.social problems. To adopt what I would call a Co-op agenda and
:25:43. > :25:48.capitalism, ensuring we protect the collective. Recognising that
:25:48. > :25:53.policies that harm social cohesion harm all of us.
:25:53. > :25:59.That's all very well, Co-op capitalism and cohesion, this is a
:25:59. > :26:03.golden opportunity this, when you sigh the Telegraph end of
:26:03. > :26:07.Conservative, attacking the rich as feral and capitalism as unfair.
:26:07. > :26:12.Where is Ed Miliband? You should invite him on to talk about it.
:26:12. > :26:17.Hopefully he will have views. We definitely need Labour and the Lib
:26:18. > :26:22.Dems. The view is, that the left has missed its chance here?
:26:22. > :26:27.writing about Co-op capitalism, and in the states there are lots of
:26:27. > :26:31.thinkers, talking about this as well. I'm involved with communities
:26:31. > :26:36.of people thinking. The question is, what do we want. Should we be
:26:36. > :26:40.thinking about policies like a tax on the superrich, as mooted by
:26:40. > :26:43.Warren Buffet of all people. Danny Finkelstein, the Conservatives are
:26:43. > :26:46.talking about withdrawing as soon as possible the 50p tax rate, that
:26:46. > :26:50.is off the agenda? Some Conservatives r I happen to take
:26:50. > :26:55.the view it is very important symbolically in the argument that
:26:55. > :27:01.we're all in it together. Although it may not produce very much money.
:27:01. > :27:05.But the truth is, that the problems of society, inequality, of gender
:27:05. > :27:09.inequality, of regional inequality, exist in all sorts of societies.
:27:09. > :27:16.These are not unique to capitalism or free market. They have got so
:27:16. > :27:19.much worse over the last 0 years. Free markets also produce
:27:19. > :27:26.tremendous benefits, which I think Richard Moore, went over, for
:27:26. > :27:31.working people. Those should not be ignored. Competition isn't the only
:27:31. > :27:33.ethic moving forward. Some of the greatest success stories in the
:27:33. > :27:39.corporate world have been collaborative ventures, whether
:27:39. > :27:44.Wikipedia, Open Source. We need to think how we will move forward and
:27:44. > :27:50.grow as an economy, and ditch some of the old ideology. The financial
:27:50. > :27:56.crisis now is not an unregulated capitalist society, it has a vast
:27:56. > :27:59.well from state. Are the rich feral, have the rich effectively, are they
:27:59. > :28:03.looting society, this is the implication of Richard Moore's
:28:03. > :28:06.article, and the article in the Spectator, that the rich have lost
:28:07. > :28:11.it and cut loose from the rest of us, it resonated during the weeks
:28:11. > :28:17.of the riots? Some people behave irresponsibly, whether they are
:28:17. > :28:21.rich or not. Some bankers have not taken responsibility for the
:28:21. > :28:25.decisions they made. Some MPs did it on expenses, some people behave
:28:25. > :28:31.irresponsibly. Is it the case, however, that this country is in a
:28:31. > :28:34.general moral decline, in which everybody behaves terribly, and
:28:34. > :28:38.MPs' expenses are responsible for people looting shops, I don't think
:28:38. > :28:42.so. What does the left have to do to get on the front foot of this
:28:42. > :28:47.debate? They have to really take this and run with it. The right are
:28:47. > :28:51.already starting to question capitalism and their version of
:28:51. > :28:55.capitalism. It isn't about ditching capitalism, it is about a new
:28:55. > :28:56.version of capitalism, Co-op capitalism, that is fair, equitable
:28:56. > :29:01.and realises social justice with the economy.
:29:01. > :29:11.Thank you very much. Time for the papers, let's have a
:29:11. > :29:33.