:00:10. > :00:14.Tonight, would you take abortion advice from a group that thinks the
:00:14. > :00:21.procedure is wickedness. As the Government plans to put counselling
:00:21. > :00:28.into the hands of independent advisers, this programme reveals
:00:28. > :00:33.that an advice group his training manual that believes that abortion
:00:33. > :00:39.was a sin. The thing they said was that God had given me another
:00:39. > :00:43.chance. We ask is it ever possible to offer unbiased advice on such an
:00:43. > :00:46.emotive subject. Gunfire on the streets of Syria,
:00:46. > :00:50.Ramadan is over tomorrow, instead of celebrations tomorrow, they will
:00:50. > :00:53.bury the dead. Does Libya's revolution offer a blueprint for
:00:53. > :00:58.Syria. Where does this leave western intervention, we ask
:00:58. > :01:02.Douglas Hurd and Jonathan Powell. Do not go gentle, would you like
:01:02. > :01:12.your mortal remains freeze-dried or lick quified, the environmental way
:01:12. > :01:14.
:01:14. > :01:18.to say goodbye. If you find yourself pregnant and confused
:01:18. > :01:22.about an abortion, the chances are you will be offered counselling, up
:01:22. > :01:24.until now the majority of services were offered by the British
:01:24. > :01:28.Pregnancy Advisory Services or Marie Stopes. Organisations that
:01:28. > :01:32.carry out abortions themselves, is that fair? The Government has
:01:32. > :01:36.decided not. It says it will change the rules so the clinic that is
:01:36. > :01:42.offer termination services are not tasked with advising. But who will
:01:42. > :01:47.fill the gap? Can abortion advice ever be impartial. We have
:01:47. > :01:50.discovered the main umbrella group claiming to offer independent
:01:50. > :01:54.advice, Care Confidential, is using a training manual that believes
:01:54. > :01:59.abortion is wickedness. It is one of the most difficult decisions a
:01:59. > :02:04.woman will ever have to make. Who helps her make that decision is
:02:04. > :02:08.about to be put into the hands of politicians. A cross-party alliance,
:02:08. > :02:12.backed by the Government, wants to see abortion providers striped of
:02:12. > :02:17.their powers to advise pregnant women, and instead, they want to
:02:17. > :02:21.choose the organisation that is they think are more independent.
:02:21. > :02:26.The Government is in danger of opening up a very unethical
:02:26. > :02:32.practice, and practice kpwipbs the best interests of vulnerable women.
:02:32. > :02:36.The important thing is to take it away from abortion providers, so
:02:36. > :02:41.the counselling can be truly independent. If a woman wants an
:02:41. > :02:46.abortion, it has to be signed off by two doctors she can be offered
:02:46. > :02:49.counselling if they think she needs further help. New proposals would
:02:49. > :02:55.like all women offered free independent counselling before they
:02:55. > :02:56.can have a termination. It is the question of who can provide
:02:56. > :03:02.independent counselling that is proving to be so hugely
:03:02. > :03:06.controversial. One of the groups that is supposed
:03:06. > :03:10.to offer this kind of non-biased counselling is Care Confidential,
:03:10. > :03:16.it is the biggest independently- funded crisis pregnancy charity in
:03:16. > :03:21.the UK. They have more than 130 affiliated centres. They say they
:03:21. > :03:31.don't moralise. But we have had access to their training manual,
:03:31. > :04:01.
:04:01. > :04:05.which describe abortion as a We spoke to one woman who said her
:04:05. > :04:10.Care Confidential counselling session was more like a sermon.
:04:10. > :04:13.Bringing God into the counselling space is highly inappropriate. Non-
:04:13. > :04:17.directive counselling, I have had non-directed counselling for
:04:17. > :04:22.pregnancy related issues before, I know what it's like. It respects
:04:22. > :04:27.the client. You don't bring religion into the counselling space.
:04:27. > :04:32.So the moment they mentioned God, I knew something wasn't quite right.
:04:32. > :04:37.I was told things like it wasn't, I was actually a mother now, even
:04:37. > :04:42.though I was only six weeks pregnant. My baby, they didn't
:04:42. > :04:45.refer to it as a pregnancy, it was baby, even at just six weeks, had
:04:45. > :04:52.everything, DNA, absolutely everything, the whole blueprint,
:04:52. > :04:57.and I was a mother now. Eventually this kind of expanded to the fact
:04:57. > :05:00.that abortion just was not a solution, it was not the answer.
:05:00. > :05:06.Just all sorts of very anti- abortion views were just being
:05:06. > :05:11.thrown at me, really. Care Confidential say they acknowledge
:05:11. > :05:14.the language they used is now outdated and will rewrite the
:05:14. > :05:21.training manuals. The chief executive said they want to bring
:05:21. > :05:26.100 centres up to a commissioning standard, to every advisor would
:05:26. > :05:28.provided unbiased counselling support. There is already an
:05:28. > :05:33.unbiased professional service, regulated and inspected by the
:05:33. > :05:36.Department of Health itself. Which on its website warns against going
:05:36. > :05:46.to the independent abortion providers, who have been showing
:05:46. > :05:46.
:05:46. > :05:49.time and time again, through misery shopping centre visits from giving
:05:49. > :05:55.controversial advice in seeking to tell women not to seek abortion
:05:55. > :06:01.when they want one. Critics say change is needed
:06:01. > :06:05.because Marie Stopes and other groups have a vested interest in
:06:05. > :06:10.women having abortions. At the moment counselling seems to be the
:06:10. > :06:15.first step on abortion conveyor- belt. Abortion providers give the
:06:15. > :06:19.impression that abortion is no big deal. At Life, from the many women
:06:19. > :06:23.we see at post-abortion counselling, we know it has serious consequences
:06:23. > :06:28.for many, many women. Going to clinic that is are giving the
:06:28. > :06:31.impression this is no big deal, it is perhaps too easy to get into a
:06:31. > :06:34.process without fully thinking it through. Attempts to change the
:06:34. > :06:40.abortion laws have failed in the past. The most recent example was
:06:40. > :06:43.trying to lower the limit from 24- 22 weeks. This time it is slightly
:06:43. > :06:48.different, because these changes can be made without a vote. Which
:06:48. > :06:51.means the Government is open to criticism that it is trying to make
:06:51. > :06:55.radical changes without political scrutiny. Abortion charities say
:06:55. > :07:00.the changes would only delay thousands of terminations and put
:07:00. > :07:04.women at greater risk. But pro-life groups say it could actually
:07:04. > :07:10.prevent 60,000 terminations every year. With such polarised views,
:07:10. > :07:14.are any of these groups really qualified to be truly independent.
:07:14. > :07:18.We put our report to the Department of Health. They said no minister
:07:18. > :07:28.was available, as they are still finalising their proposals. They
:07:28. > :07:30.
:07:31. > :07:34.Meanwhile, let's discuss it further here. Joining me now is the
:07:34. > :07:39.Conservative MP, Stewart Jackson, backer of Nadine Dorries's
:07:39. > :07:43.amendment. And from Manchester, Labour MP. Welcome. Do you believe
:07:43. > :07:48.that a group which believes that abortion is undoubtedly a
:07:48. > :07:53.wickedness that grieves God's heart, can offer independent advice?
:07:53. > :07:56.I think there will be a plethora of independent advisers and
:07:56. > :08:01.counsellors coming in to give advice and counselling on abortion
:08:01. > :08:05.if the amendment goes through. about this group, this is Care
:08:05. > :08:08.Confidential, clearly the biggest advisor, that says it is a
:08:08. > :08:13.wickedness that grieves God's heart? Clearly there will be a
:08:13. > :08:16.range of views, and nuances. That is not range of view. As Care
:08:16. > :08:20.Confidential themselves have said, they will be changing their manual,
:08:20. > :08:24.and they will be presenting a different picture to women that
:08:24. > :08:28.seek their advice and counselling. But this is primarily about choice,
:08:28. > :08:32.it is about impartiality, it is breaking that fiscal link, that
:08:32. > :08:36.conflict of interest between people, as we did in the pension industry,
:08:36. > :08:40.20-odd years ago, between people who give advice and also people
:08:40. > :08:44.then selling financial products. Just to clarify. Abortion is much
:08:44. > :08:48.more important. Do you think those people are appropriate, this is a
:08:48. > :08:53.company offering a service they call unbiased and their training
:08:53. > :08:58.manual, the manuals their own advisers learn from, preach that it
:08:58. > :09:02.is undoubtedly a wickedness that grieves God's heart. Is that a
:09:02. > :09:10.suitable agency to go to? You will always be able to bring forward
:09:10. > :09:14.anecdotes. It is not Anam he can tote, it is a report from a woman -
:09:14. > :09:20.anecdote, it is a report from a woman you heard in the report?
:09:20. > :09:24.have people going to Marie Stopes and BPAS who have told they have
:09:24. > :09:30.wrong advice. �60 million a year the two organisations receive a
:09:30. > :09:34.year to do 100,000 abortion as here. It ill behoves people who say they
:09:34. > :09:36.are in favour of women's choice, to oppose an amendment that will open
:09:36. > :09:40.up choice, and bring forward independence and transparency to
:09:40. > :09:44.the whole situation. Which is a very traumatic situation for many
:09:44. > :09:48.women. It is unrealistic to expect that these places that offer the
:09:48. > :09:53.service of abortion will not be swayed by the business they are in,
:09:53. > :09:59.isn't it? There is no empirical evidence to that effect, to show
:09:59. > :10:05.that this is the case in point. I am afraid, I'm very concerned about
:10:06. > :10:10.the proposed changes, behind it is an agenda, it is probably religious
:10:10. > :10:13.and morally based agenda to reduce the number of abortions. In all
:10:13. > :10:16.honesty, these people, Nadine Dorries and others, are not really
:10:16. > :10:20.concerned about giving women independent advice, what their
:10:20. > :10:24.agenda is to reduce the number of abortions, because they morally and
:10:24. > :10:27.religiously it is the wrong thing to happen. This is just surely a
:10:27. > :10:31.rebalancing of a system that is arguably already unfair, that as
:10:31. > :10:35.one woman said, makes going to a clinic seem like it is no big deal,
:10:35. > :10:39.when women are turning up for abortions? I think that's wrong as
:10:39. > :10:46.well. Because when a woman falls pregnant, who doesn't want to be
:10:46. > :10:50.pregnant, I'm sure she's probably getting a number of different bits
:10:50. > :10:57.of advice, her friends, GPs and others, she probably knows what she
:10:57. > :11:03.wants to do in the majority of cases. To suggest some how you will
:11:03. > :11:08.reduce 100,000 down to 40,000, so 60,000 people won't have abortions
:11:08. > :11:16.cleetly wrong. That is completely wrong, it shows the agenda behind
:11:16. > :11:18.it. Do you want to reduce abortions? It is about righting an
:11:18. > :11:24.anon-ly, which is women at the moment don't have an independent
:11:24. > :11:27.right to seek advice. Why is that righting it? You have seen what the
:11:27. > :11:33.agency said, they are the largest "independent" provider of that
:11:33. > :11:36.counselling service now, who else is there? The fact of the matter is,
:11:36. > :11:39.this is not a narrow agenda, it is backed by the majority of the
:11:40. > :11:44.public, many people in the health care sector, the British
:11:44. > :11:47.Association of Counsellors and psychotherapist, and right across
:11:47. > :11:51.the House of Commons. I'm talking practicalities, who else is there?
:11:51. > :11:57.There will be many other people that will come in to give that
:11:57. > :12:01.support. If you are asking me as a legislator, as Yasmin, it is not
:12:02. > :12:07.right that we see a social phenomenon, that has grown from 8
:12:07. > :12:11.4,000 in 1991, to 18 1,000 abortions in 2010, that we have no
:12:11. > :12:16.part in deciding that, I have to disagree. The argument and debate
:12:16. > :12:21.we should be having as a society is about the number of preing cities
:12:21. > :12:25.that are - pregnancies that are unwanted. To prevent those unwanted
:12:26. > :12:34.pregnancies, to work out how to educate people, even talk about be
:12:34. > :12:37.a nepbs, things of that nature - be a - be a stinnepbs, and things of
:12:37. > :12:41.that nature, by that stage women know what they want to do. We will
:12:41. > :12:44.set up quangos and charities, more money to be given for these so-
:12:44. > :12:54.called independent advisers when actually our energies should be.
:12:54. > :12:57.
:12:57. > :13:01.That isn't the case. This is neutral money, it is going from one
:13:01. > :13:05.place to another. The real question in society is to address the number
:13:05. > :13:10.of unwanted pregnancies, how do we prevent that from happening. There
:13:10. > :13:13.is no point in changing the society and putting it back to 25 years ago.
:13:13. > :13:18.Most medical practitioners have said that this particular proposal
:13:18. > :13:22.is going to cause more problems, it will cause more delays and cause
:13:22. > :13:26.more dilemma and more harm to women. And for the Government now, which
:13:26. > :13:28.is preaching austerity, we haven't got the money for this. You
:13:28. > :13:32.certainly don't want to push women's decisions further along the
:13:32. > :13:36.line of their pregnancy? This is about putting women's choices,
:13:36. > :13:42.choices that are right for them in very traumatic circumstance, front
:13:42. > :13:46.and centre, the money has already been spent by the NHS. Urbaning
:13:46. > :13:49.certain places from giving advice, BPAS and Marie Stopes who do it at
:13:49. > :13:53.the moment, why is that more choice? We are challenging a vested
:13:53. > :13:55.interest. I can't understand why people who are supportive of
:13:55. > :13:58.women's choice, information, transparency and independence,
:13:58. > :14:02.should be against this amendment. The reason people support it across
:14:02. > :14:09.the House of Commons and the country, is because it is moderate
:14:09. > :14:13.and sensible. It is not part of an agenda. Do you have any evidence
:14:13. > :14:17.they encourage abortions among women who may have chosen not to?
:14:17. > :14:26.I'm not making the direct link, there is certainly a case to answer
:14:26. > :14:31.that there is a vested interest in elective abortions in BPAS and
:14:31. > :14:33.Marie Stopes. You have no evidence to prove that and make aspersions
:14:33. > :14:37.against people. There is a moral argument going on here, that is
:14:37. > :14:41.what people should be honest about. This isn't about want to be give
:14:41. > :14:45.women a choice, this is about the fact that increasing the social
:14:45. > :14:50.Conservatism, coming from America, coming into this country, and all
:14:50. > :14:55.they are trying to do is effect their agenda. You think this is a
:14:55. > :15:03.move of a Government that is anti- abortion? Yes, I think that is the
:15:03. > :15:07.move, I think that is intention of this movement. There is a 36%
:15:07. > :15:12.increase in funding to the Stopes clinic.
:15:12. > :15:14.As prayers mark the end of Ramadan in Syria, thousands of anti-
:15:15. > :15:18.Government protestors poured on to the streets. The security forces
:15:18. > :15:22.were ready for them. Seven activists are reported to have been
:15:22. > :15:26.killed, three shot dead today. It is inevitable perhaps that some
:15:26. > :15:30.sort of victory is reached by the rebels of Libya. Hope and a certain
:15:30. > :15:33.amount of pressure will have passed over the Arab world to Damascus.
:15:33. > :15:37.Western Governments will be relieved that things worked out as
:15:37. > :15:41.they did so far in Libya. What lesson has this intervention taught
:15:41. > :15:51.us. Where does it leave us for next time round? Does it offer any
:15:51. > :15:57.
:15:57. > :16:00.Nobody's quite clear which root Libya's revolution will follow now.
:16:00. > :16:05.But plenty of French and British pundits have been quick to declare
:16:05. > :16:12.that this was a model way to get rid of a dictator.
:16:12. > :16:18.So, if it can be done in Libya, why not Syria? Today's religious
:16:18. > :16:24.festival of Eid, has given way to further protest and a bloody Syrian
:16:24. > :16:27.response. Syria's a lynch pin of the Middle East, if Syria goes up
:16:27. > :16:32.in smoke, then immediately you have problems in Lebanon, you have
:16:32. > :16:38.problems at the border between Israel and Syria, which has been
:16:38. > :16:45.quiet since 1973. One of the quietest borders around. So, all in
:16:45. > :16:55.all, we have picked a big problem, which was Libya, but in the context
:16:55. > :16:55.
:16:55. > :16:59.of the Middle East, it was not the fundamental problem. Gaddafi had
:16:59. > :17:03.made himself pretty much a friendless dictator. The
:17:03. > :17:07.intervention against him was preceded by an Arab League vote,
:17:07. > :17:11.and followed by one in the UN Security Council. Neither body
:17:11. > :17:18.would be ready to vote for similar action against Libya.
:17:18. > :17:23.We have seen how a UN resolution was rushed to secure a military
:17:23. > :17:27.intervention in Libya, and the Arab League, which initially supported
:17:27. > :17:33.the UN resolution, was very quick to distance itself from the
:17:33. > :17:38.decision, given the turn that the military action was in Libya.
:17:38. > :17:41.It's true, the Turk, concerned about their border with Syria, have
:17:41. > :17:46.changed their language towards the outside Government, and so have the
:17:46. > :17:49.Russians. But many Arab countries are playing a waiting game, and the
:17:49. > :17:55.Syrian regime still has fulsome support from Iran.
:17:55. > :17:58.We have seen some of the Arab states, such as Saudi Arabia, who
:17:59. > :18:04.have withdrawn their diplomatic representatives from Syria, yet he
:18:04. > :18:08.still has some very major all Lois that Libya did not. Assad and Syria
:18:08. > :18:12.are not as diplomatically isolated as Gaddafi was in Libya. Syria has
:18:12. > :18:17.very close relations with Iran, very involved in Lebanon, and also
:18:17. > :18:23.with Hezbollah. So these are much stronger and direct allies than
:18:23. > :18:28.Gaddafi had in Libya. The Syrian-Iranian alliance,
:18:28. > :18:33.supporting groups like Hezbollah in Lebanon, or Hamas in Gaza, raises
:18:33. > :18:36.other problems for those who seek change of Government in Damascus.
:18:36. > :18:42.President Assad has a doomsday option of triggering a regional war
:18:42. > :18:47.with Israel, as a means of trying to divert dissent.
:18:47. > :18:53.To large extent that is the ultimate and most desperate card of
:18:53. > :18:59.Bashar al-Assad that he could play. Clearly he could play that card in
:18:59. > :19:05.collapsing the regime in Lebanon, which is a very rickety coalition,
:19:05. > :19:09.depending on Syria's good will. Clearly he could try to encourage
:19:09. > :19:14.the Hamas movement in Gaza to restart its missile offensive on
:19:14. > :19:23.Israel. There were some continuityive attempts to get
:19:23. > :19:29.marches, suppose - tentative attempts to get marches, on the
:19:29. > :19:39.border Iran Palestine and Israel to start conflict about the Golan
:19:39. > :19:44.Heights. If the diplomatic obstacles could
:19:44. > :19:49.be overcome, his security forces are a mightier foe than those of
:19:49. > :19:54.Libya. The Syrians are better equipped and organised. Bashar al-
:19:54. > :19:57.Assad remains the only successful republican dynast in the region,
:19:57. > :20:04.having succeeded his father, in part, through careful cultivation
:20:04. > :20:12.of the forces. There is no doubt that although Syria is run by
:20:12. > :20:16.effectively a minority of all watts, its powerful structure and reliance
:20:17. > :20:22.on the army is crucial, it has proved much more loyal to the
:20:22. > :20:27.regime than in the case of Libya. The strength of Syrian defences
:20:27. > :20:33.means that an air campaign would require a big American effort to
:20:33. > :20:38.overwhelm them at its start. As it stands today, the idea of US air
:20:38. > :20:44.strikes, enabling UN resolution, or even trade isolation, all seem
:20:44. > :20:48.remote. And the Assad Government sits secure in power.
:20:48. > :20:58.Mark is with me now. What do you think the outside world can do then
:20:58. > :21:02.to change Assad's regime? It is not a complete counsel of sis pair, but
:21:02. > :21:06.at the moment they are limited to - despair, but at the moment they are
:21:06. > :21:11.limited to small turns on the screwdriver. We have seen a small
:21:11. > :21:16.number of Syrian officials with their assets frozen and bank
:21:16. > :21:21.accounts frozen, that take it is to 33. Some Arab countries withdrawing
:21:21. > :21:25.ambassadors. That kind of thing. A real tipping point where a major
:21:25. > :21:32.part of the country breaks free, or a majority part of the army breaks
:21:32. > :21:36.free hasn't happened. We have seen the Syrian army, unlike the Libyan
:21:36. > :21:42.forces back in Februaryia which fractured, the army seems prepared
:21:42. > :21:45.to go out and kill its people week after week without major fractures.
:21:45. > :21:49.The people come out to protest their outrage and points of view
:21:49. > :21:52.week after week and it continues. We are trying to draw parallels
:21:52. > :21:57.between the situation we have seen in Libya and that which could occur
:21:57. > :22:00.in Syria. Is it possible to say if there was a key moment of
:22:00. > :22:02.intervention from the west that actually made a difference?
:22:02. > :22:05.you're looking at outside intervention, where you're not
:22:05. > :22:09.prepared to put troops on the ground. Clearly that is one of the
:22:09. > :22:13.things that people extol about the Libyan model, you have to be quite
:22:13. > :22:18.modest in what it can achieve. I think you can narrow it down to the
:22:18. > :22:22.afternoon of the 19th of March, when French jets bombed Colonel
:22:22. > :22:27.Gaddafi's tanks as they moved into the outskirts of Benghazi. From
:22:27. > :22:31.that point on, the outcome was not clear, in a sense it wasn't clear
:22:31. > :22:37.that Colonel Gaddafi would be overthrown, what was clear is he
:22:37. > :22:41.wasn't going to reconquer Benghazi and tib bruk, and the other areas -
:22:41. > :22:47.toub bruk, and the other areas freed by the coalition. The best he
:22:47. > :22:53.could hope for then was partition, even those with little faith in it,
:22:53. > :22:58.was some de facto partition of the country that is what they hoped for.
:22:58. > :23:06.It could possibly happen in the Turk irk border area that a safe
:23:06. > :23:10.haven or humanitarian area could be secured with international help. We
:23:10. > :23:13.don't see that fracturing of the country, either geographically,
:23:13. > :23:19.ethically or along the lines of the forces.
:23:19. > :23:23.Joining me now is Douglas Hurd, the former Conservative Foreign
:23:23. > :23:26.Secretary, Jonathan Powell, Chief- of-Staff to Tony Blair, and Anne-
:23:26. > :23:36.Marie Slaughter, the former adviser to Hillary Clinton in the US State
:23:36. > :23:37.
:23:38. > :23:41.Department. Let's up on some of the points there, the regional
:23:42. > :23:46.differences when you are looking at Syria rather than Libya. How
:23:46. > :23:54.constrained, for example, are we by the fact that Iran is backing this
:23:54. > :23:59.regime? That's part of the complex, of course it is. It is no good
:23:59. > :24:03.thinking of Sir Libya as a blueprint, and everyone - of Libya
:24:03. > :24:06.as a blueprint and everyone going on in that way. The two situations
:24:06. > :24:10.are desperately different from each other. You have to make up your
:24:10. > :24:14.mind in each case, separately, what is the best thing to do. The worst
:24:14. > :24:18.thing to do is use, and send your soldiers to kill and be killed,
:24:18. > :24:23.without any assurance that you are going to make the situation better.
:24:23. > :24:27.Of course it can't be a blueprint, Jonathan Powell, but there will be
:24:27. > :24:31.politicians looking at this now and saying well that did work, as far
:24:31. > :24:34.as we were able, we got lucky in Libya, can't the same be done in
:24:34. > :24:38.Syria? Intervention worked too in Kosovo, as you remember, and Sierra
:24:38. > :24:43.Leone, as well as in Libya. Intervention can make a difference.
:24:43. > :24:48.But you are leaving Iraq out of that? I would come on to Iraq.
:24:48. > :24:51.Intervention made a difference, it got rid of Saddam, it was the
:24:51. > :24:55.aftermath. Intervention would make a difference in Syria, undoubtedly.
:24:55. > :24:59.When you see the picks tures of the young people protesting on the
:24:59. > :25:04.streets and their extraordinary bravery in fighting the regime, and
:25:04. > :25:08.the brutality in putting them down, it is hard not to want to intervene.
:25:08. > :25:13.But can you do it practically. Tony Blair made the speech about Kosovo,
:25:13. > :25:17.he said there were five conditions, one is practicality, can you do it,
:25:17. > :25:22.clearly in Syria at the moment you can't do it. Anne-Marie Slaughter
:25:22. > :25:26.do you agree there is no serious entry into Syria as there was into
:25:26. > :25:32.Libya? I agree, we are not talking about military force in Syria,
:25:32. > :25:35.unless things got far, far worse. I think I disagree that we only have
:25:35. > :25:42.small diplomatic moves to make. There is a great deal more that we
:25:42. > :25:47.can do diplomatically, in terms of helping to build much more unity
:25:47. > :25:52.against Syria in the region. Working with turkey in particular,
:25:52. > :25:57.turkey has much - Turkey in particular, Turkey has much more
:25:57. > :26:03.lefrpbage, it has barely begun to use it. Working with - leverage, it
:26:03. > :26:08.has barely begun to use it. Working with other Arab League countries.
:26:08. > :26:13.What is important in Syria, Assad's days are numbered, it may take a
:26:13. > :26:15.long time, he will not survive that. Once that starts to become an
:26:15. > :26:19.inevitability, then the business community starts to think, wait a
:26:19. > :26:23.minute, where do I need to be. Even countries right now that are
:26:23. > :26:26.supporting the Syrian regime, like Russia, need to think, well wait a
:26:26. > :26:32.minute, we still want to use the port, if there is another
:26:32. > :26:38.Government in power, we better perhaps hedge our bets. And
:26:38. > :26:41.foinally, the - finally, the EU has only begun to apply diplomatic
:26:41. > :26:45.pressure, they haven't put important sanctions in place, those
:26:45. > :26:53.should be coming. I think there is a lot we can do that will help the
:26:53. > :26:57.protestors without actually using force. Do you think this requires
:26:57. > :27:01.American leadership. Is there any will in the US to lead on this one
:27:02. > :27:07.in Syria? Absolutely. Although I think the Europeans, and the Turk,
:27:07. > :27:10.have a very important role to play, but the US has been extremely
:27:10. > :27:17.active diplomatically, it was extremely active diplomatically in
:27:17. > :27:23.Libya, secretary Clinton worked very hard to keep the various
:27:23. > :27:29.coalitions together, not only in NATO, but with Cutter and UAE, and
:27:29. > :27:32.simply here, we have been out front imposing sanctions and pushinging
:27:32. > :27:36.the Europeans to impose sanctions and those on the Security Council.
:27:36. > :27:40.We want this to be on the model much more on Tunisia and Egypt,
:27:41. > :27:44.where ultimately the non-violent protests of these extraordinarily
:27:44. > :27:51.brave people, ultimately creates a situation in which the Government
:27:51. > :27:54.has to go. The point that was made was of
:27:54. > :27:57.military might and the Syrian regime's capability and capacity to
:27:57. > :28:02.kill its people week in and week out. Very different to that of
:28:02. > :28:07.Libya? Very different. So it is not a blueprint exactly, what we have
:28:07. > :28:12.just heard from the American side is, I think, sensible. You
:28:12. > :28:17.gradually build up the pressures. You have to get agreement to
:28:17. > :28:23.achieve anything in the way of pressures, that is why it is a slow
:28:23. > :28:27.business. I think the significant phrase that you used was
:28:27. > :28:30."ultimately". This will take time. Assad is in quite a strong position,
:28:30. > :28:34.he has himself in quite a strong position. But fundamentally he's in
:28:34. > :28:38.a weak position, because fundamentally he cannot command the
:28:38. > :28:43.loyalty of the majority of Syrians. But he has Iran behind him, and
:28:43. > :28:47.nobody wants to anger Iran, what do you make of this idea of a
:28:47. > :28:54.manufactured regional war with Israel to divert attention? I don't
:28:54. > :29:00.think that's out all likely. He has a problem. He's not handling it
:29:00. > :29:06.well. That problem may ultimately be his downfall. We should bring
:29:06. > :29:10.that day closer if we can. And the diplomatic activity that we have
:29:10. > :29:17.heard about, economic activity, we and the French and the Americans,
:29:17. > :29:21.are in the lead in the UN trying to build up these pressures, how fast
:29:21. > :29:25.we can go will defend on how much progress we make. This question of
:29:25. > :29:30.foreign policy is a reaction and pendulum to what has gone before
:29:30. > :29:36.really. In essence, what you did under Tony Blair, was a reaction to
:29:36. > :29:39.what Douglas Hurd didn't do in the Balkans? I think that's right, we
:29:39. > :29:43.tried non-intervention in Bosnia with disastrous consequences,
:29:43. > :29:49.sometimes you have to be ready to intervene, as we did in Kosovo. It
:29:49. > :29:54.was very successful. Bosnia was a different situation. Of course it
:29:54. > :29:58.is, it was personally a mistake not to intervene in the case of Bosnia,
:29:58. > :30:05.many people died as a result. In Kosovo we were criticised for
:30:05. > :30:08.intervening but it did save many lives. There is always the pendulum
:30:08. > :30:12.of interventionism. After Iraq we have heard said no more
:30:12. > :30:16.interventionism but we have seen it in Libya, quite quickly after.
:30:16. > :30:19.does that tell you people haven't lost their appetite for
:30:19. > :30:23.intervention. When you see people dying on the streets, not losing
:30:23. > :30:26.the fear of being killed still going out there, this regime will
:30:26. > :30:31.fall, it is a question of when. talk about the pushes that came
:30:31. > :30:36.from Hillary Clinton, certainly we saw a lot of reluctance of
:30:36. > :30:40.President Obama to get involved, it was led by Cameron and Sarkozy?
:30:40. > :30:45.z and indeed from the American point of view, and given we have
:30:45. > :30:50.troops in Iraq and fighting actively in Afghanistan. President
:30:50. > :30:53.Obama had no interest in getting involved in a third military
:30:53. > :30:59.conflict, anywhere, much less in another Muslim country. On the
:30:59. > :31:07.other hand, as Jonathan just said, when you saw the prospect of tanks
:31:07. > :31:11.and plans overrunning a city of 750,000 people and Gaddafi saying
:31:11. > :31:14.he's going door-to-door to eradicate opposition. All the
:31:14. > :31:19.leaders involved, including President Obama, realised this was
:31:19. > :31:24.going to be potentially, on his doorstep. This massacre was
:31:24. > :31:31.something he could prevent and if he didn't act it was going to be
:31:31. > :31:33.partly on his hands. That, plus the diplomatic pressure, allowed for
:31:33. > :31:37.military force. If this was Tony Blair now, what would be his
:31:37. > :31:39.response, I don't know if you talk to him regularly about Syria?
:31:39. > :31:46.would be arguing with the American President for thinking about how
:31:46. > :31:48.you put the maximum pressure on here. What does that mean? The sort
:31:48. > :31:52.of measures Anne-Marie Slaughter was talking about, she didn't rule
:31:52. > :31:55.out military pressure later on. If the neighbours take a different
:31:55. > :32:00.attitude, if Syria's other neighbours become more intervention,
:32:00. > :32:04.there may be scope. The prize is, if this regime fall, Iran is next.
:32:04. > :32:08.I know you run a mile from this side of a blueprint, what impact do
:32:08. > :32:14.you think Iraq in all of this has had on our intervention now? Iraq
:32:14. > :32:17.was a blow to the concept of intervention. Jonathan is quite
:32:17. > :32:21.right, the concept won't go away. Whenever people see horrible things
:32:21. > :32:25.happening on the screen, they will say we must do something about it.
:32:25. > :32:32.I'm very familiar with that in Bosnia. There we took the view,
:32:32. > :32:37.after listening to a lot of advice, that we would not be able to impose
:32:37. > :32:42.a solution by force. But each case is different, Kosovo, Sierra Leone,
:32:42. > :32:46.we have heard about, successful, limited, but successful operations.
:32:46. > :32:53.Thank you all very much indeed. This evening the Foreign Secretary,
:32:53. > :32:57.William Hague, announced that the UN would be releasing $1.5 billion
:32:57. > :33:01.Libyan Dinar being held in EU banks. This is a country starting from
:33:01. > :33:05.scratch now. Few people in libabout will be old enough to remember
:33:05. > :33:10.anyone other - Libya, will be old enough to remember anyone other
:33:10. > :33:19.than Colonel Gaddafi ruling their country. Questions now focus on how
:33:19. > :33:23.to rebuild a battered country and how to rule.
:33:23. > :33:28.After the siege of the cities, the siege of the banks.
:33:28. > :33:34.This is the new frontline for many Libyans, the fight for money, in a
:33:34. > :33:37.country bereft of funds. As Ramadan ends, and the Eid holiday begins,
:33:37. > :33:43.they are desperate for cash to buy something special for their
:33:43. > :33:48.families. But Libya's earned nothing for months. Its assets,
:33:48. > :33:52.held abroad, are still mainly frozen. TRANSLATION: For myself as
:33:52. > :33:57.a man, I don't mind, even if I don't have enough money, but my
:33:57. > :34:02.children, my children will suffer. The children will be very upset if
:34:02. > :34:09.they did not receive Eid. My salary since February we haven't received
:34:09. > :34:12.a salary, just the bank give us part of the money until we get the
:34:12. > :34:19.problem over, we get our salary after. That we are still waiting
:34:19. > :34:26.for the money because of the frozen money, you know.
:34:26. > :34:31.Who would be a bank manager in Libya today. He can allow each
:34:31. > :34:35.customer 150 Dinars as maximum, about �70, there are not enough
:34:35. > :34:39.bank notes to pay in full. TRANSLATION: The companies and the
:34:39. > :34:44.private companies and Government money have a delay. So that's why
:34:44. > :34:49.it is very difficult to serve people. You have to release some of
:34:49. > :34:54.the frozen money, hard currency, and local currency. Because we are
:34:54. > :34:59.desperate. While there is no money here,
:34:59. > :35:04.nearly a billion pounds worth of newly printed Libyan currency is
:35:04. > :35:14.still impounded in Britain. Part of an estimated $12 billion of Libyan
:35:14. > :35:16.
:35:16. > :35:21.assets in the UK, and �100 billion worldwide. $1 billion has been
:35:21. > :35:29.released by the union countries so far.
:35:29. > :35:35.What are your reserves of hard currency now? Let me say it this
:35:35. > :35:41.way. We have plenty of money here, but most of the amount is within,
:35:41. > :35:50.is in the safes of the merchants and businessmen, in their safes and
:35:50. > :35:59.their houses. But, I think, we have a very big amount of money in
:35:59. > :36:06.Britain. Printed money, you know, I expect it will come back very soon,
:36:06. > :36:10.many in the very coming days. for the rest, all the rest of the
:36:10. > :36:16.assets abroad, when realistically will you start to receive those?
:36:16. > :36:21.When you look to the history of what happened in the other
:36:22. > :36:30.countries similar to Libya, like Iraq and Iran, I think it will be,
:36:30. > :36:40.it will take a long time. But I think it will maybe take not less
:36:40. > :36:40.
:36:40. > :36:45.than six weeks. For now, the simple joy of
:36:45. > :36:50.liberation is enough for most Libyans.
:36:50. > :36:54.Late at night hundreds have dashed to the port in Benghazi, to catch a
:36:54. > :37:00.glimpse of newly released political prisoners who just returned by boat
:37:00. > :37:04.from Tripoli. For years they were incarcerated in Gaddafi's most
:37:04. > :37:12.notorious jail. But soon thoughts will have to turn to building the
:37:12. > :37:16.new Libya, after 42 years of decay. The euphoria here is intense, the
:37:16. > :37:22.question is, can the victorious rebels build a new Libya that will
:37:22. > :37:27.justify and fulfil these people's expectations.
:37:27. > :37:34.Here's a question to make you choke on your cocoa, if you don't fancy
:37:34. > :37:39.being buried or cremated after you shuffle off your mortal coil, how
:37:39. > :37:46.about being freeze fried or liquefied. Scottish developers say
:37:46. > :37:53.it is a more ecological alternative to the flaisms. Freeze-drying is
:37:53. > :37:57.being mooted in - flames. Freeze- drying is being mooted in Sweden.
:37:57. > :38:03.We look at the alternatives to cremation.
:38:03. > :38:06.Welcome to The Andrew Marr Show McQueen Funeral Home in St
:38:06. > :38:16.Petersburg Florida, it is a family run place that tries to celebrate
:38:16. > :38:26.rather than mourn the dead. Inside a piano plays funeral favourites.
:38:26. > :38:27.
:38:27. > :38:33.While screens display pictures of the dearly departed. After the
:38:33. > :38:37.services the bodies are cremated in furnaces to the rear, where
:38:37. > :38:43.employees have to wrestle with the combined heat of the fires and the
:38:43. > :38:53.sweltering Florida summer. But there's now an inKong grus addition,
:38:53. > :38:55.
:38:55. > :38:59.a shiny stainless steel machine in a bright room. This is the
:38:59. > :39:02.Resomator, developed in Scotland but used in Scotland for the first
:39:02. > :39:06.time. None of us like talking about death or what comes after,
:39:06. > :39:09.something has to be done with our mortal remains. For the
:39:09. > :39:13.environmentally conscious amongst us, this might offer a better
:39:13. > :39:23.alternative. This is how the machine will work when it is up and
:39:23. > :39:28.running in a few weeks time. The bodies goes in a silk coffin, it is
:39:28. > :39:33.heated up and everything is dissolved, all that is left is bone,
:39:33. > :39:39.that can be ground and made into a powder to be given to the family.
:39:39. > :39:43.Critics say it is washing a loved one down the drain, not say the
:39:43. > :39:49.designers. There is no DNA in the liquid, simply chemical, it will
:39:49. > :39:54.eventually go to the river, out to the sea, up as clouds and down as a
:39:54. > :40:01.rain, the hydrological cycle, similar to all other processes.
:40:01. > :40:06.designers say it will reduce greenhouse gas emissions by a third
:40:06. > :40:13.compared to cremation. It allows for tooth fillings, which means
:40:13. > :40:18.tooth fillings won't be vapourised and released into the atmosphere.
:40:19. > :40:26.The Florida funeral home owner is advertising it as green cremation.
:40:26. > :40:33.It reduces the amount of things going into the at moss officer, the
:40:33. > :40:37.- atmosphere, and the releasing of gases. We believe the families will
:40:37. > :40:41.find that of benefit and believe families will want to par take.
:40:41. > :40:46.believes there will be a market here and elsewhere. We will be very
:40:46. > :40:52.excited and proud that we were the first ones to introduce it. We are
:40:52. > :40:57.happy that our legislature in flour dafs the first one to approve this
:40:57. > :41:01.type of cremation. I understand it is not accepted yet in the UK, we
:41:02. > :41:09.are hopeful once they see how successful it is in Florida and
:41:09. > :41:13.other parts of the country, the UK will embrace Resomation, and they
:41:13. > :41:16.will accept it there, it will make us proud to be the first one to
:41:16. > :41:21.start. This is not the only alternative to cremation that might
:41:21. > :41:25.be coming our way. A rival process called Promession involves freeze-
:41:25. > :41:34.drying our remains. So far it has only been tested on pigs. To get an
:41:34. > :41:40.idea of how it works. I went down to the electron microskopy centre
:41:40. > :41:44.at imperial clon London. Imagine this is a dead person. I will put
:41:44. > :41:54.it into the liquid nitrogen and leave it there for a few minutes.
:41:54. > :41:57.The rose is so fragile that this is enough to shatter it.
:41:57. > :42:02.Promession is the brainchild of Swedish biologist, Susanne Wiigh-
:42:02. > :42:07.Mosack, she lives on an island off the Swedish west coast, and came up
:42:07. > :42:12.with the idea while composting in her garden. Her theory is what
:42:12. > :42:16.works for potato skins and apple cores could work for the human body
:42:16. > :42:20.too. This is what inspired me to really see if not only the kitchen
:42:21. > :42:29.and garden waste, but also everything organic, including us,
:42:29. > :42:32.could be treated this way to really become soil. She envisages a fully
:42:32. > :42:37.automated process, in which coffins are fed into the machine which
:42:37. > :42:41.takes care of the rest the exposing the body to liquid
:42:41. > :42:45.nitrogen, we can usely vibrate the body down to a powder in this
:42:45. > :42:54.seconds. That frozen powder is then going to the freeze-drying, where
:42:54. > :43:00.it becomes dry, and in that stage we allow the powder to go down into
:43:00. > :43:05.the coffin through a metal separation. So all the solid metals
:43:05. > :43:08.as spare parts, tooth fillings and whatever, is separated. Susanne
:43:08. > :43:15.Wiigh-Mosack is still to build a full commercial facility, but the
:43:15. > :43:18.designs are in place, and the manufacturers are ready. A square,
:43:18. > :43:24.biodegradable coffin has also been designed, into which the residue
:43:24. > :43:32.from the process will be placed, ready for shallow burial.
:43:32. > :43:38.fulfils the needs nature asks us to, it will become soil 6-12 months, it
:43:38. > :43:42.will be a beautiful process. Thee believes Promession will help
:43:42. > :43:46.us talk about death - she believes Promession will help us talk about
:43:46. > :43:51.death? We believe it is taboo, and especially if you have the chance
:43:51. > :43:56.to talk about this person-to-person. It seems to be very relieving. I
:43:56. > :44:00.would say it is nine times out of ten the same word is coming back,
:44:00. > :44:04.they find Promession very appealing. Death has never been appealing
:44:04. > :44:08.before, this must be something new. The arrival of these new
:44:08. > :44:11.technologies is going to give us options we could never have
:44:11. > :44:15.imagined. To burial and cremation we may have to add more
:44:15. > :44:25.possiblities. It is often said we now have more choices in our modern
:44:25. > :44:26.
:44:26. > :44:36.lives. Soon, that may extend to what comes next.
:44:36. > :44:36.
:44:36. > :45:18.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 41 seconds
:45:18. > :45:28.Let's just take you through the That's all for tonight. We leave
:45:28. > :45:33.you with a clip from the Sony Pictures and Martin score saysies
:45:33. > :45:42.tribute to the last of the great Mississippi delta bluesmen, who
:45:42. > :45:50.still toured the world into his 90s. He performs I'm A Gambling Man.
:45:50. > :46:00.# Lord I'm glambling man. No matter where I go.
:46:00. > :46:10.
:46:10. > :46:13.# I'm glambling man Hello there, there is only one more
:46:13. > :46:16.day left of this poor summer. It looks like it is going to be
:46:16. > :46:18.another cool one. There will be some sunshine in the morning, maybe
:46:19. > :46:23.Scotland, Northern Ireland and towards the south west. Then the
:46:23. > :46:26.cloud will tend to fill in a bit as we head into the afternoon. Still
:46:26. > :46:31.bright for northern England, and a much better day for the North West
:46:31. > :46:34.than today. At least it looks like it will be dry. Dry through the
:46:34. > :46:38.Midlands through East Anglia and the south-east. Precious little
:46:38. > :46:43.sunshine. South coast may not do too badly, particularly in Cornwall
:46:43. > :46:46.and parts of Devon. Sunshine here. Temperatures no better than 18-19.
:46:46. > :46:49.If you are underneath the cloud, as most of Wales will be during the
:46:49. > :46:53.afternoon, then the temperatures will be a little lower. It will
:46:53. > :46:56.feel once again in Northern Ireland. Light winds, if you do see some
:46:56. > :47:00.sunshine it won't feel too bad. For most, if not all of the day, it
:47:00. > :47:04.will be cloudy. We will start with sunshine, and increase the cloud in
:47:04. > :47:09.Scotland. There may be one or two light showers dotted about, many
:47:09. > :47:13.places dry. It is a cloudy theme. Temperature as degree or so up on
:47:13. > :47:17.today. It warms up further on Thursday, with some brighter skies,
:47:17. > :47:23.and probably a bit more sunshine, especially towards the south. Here