:00:11. > :00:14.All those yoghurt weaving hand wringers who thought that the
:00:14. > :00:18.summer riots were caused by austerity and social failure were
:00:18. > :00:23.wrong were they. The Justice Secretary revealed three quarters
:00:23. > :00:27.of the rioters arrested are prior convictions, a feral underclass. If
:00:27. > :00:31.he's right most of them are graduates of a criminal justice
:00:31. > :00:36.system that has no idea how to rehabilitate their customers. The
:00:36. > :00:39.police minister and the former Lord Chancellor are here. James Murdoch
:00:39. > :00:42.pleaded ignorance to the House of Commons, that he didn't know about
:00:42. > :00:47.the widespread phone hacking going on at the News of the World. Enter
:00:47. > :00:51.his company lawyer with this unhelpable intervention. Listen, it
:00:51. > :00:55.was the reason - unhelpful intervention. Listen, it was the
:00:55. > :01:00.reason we had to settle the case. In order to settle the case we had
:01:00. > :01:05.to explain the case to Mr Murdoch and get his authority to settle.
:01:05. > :01:09.that game over for James Murdoch's career, or can his media
:01:09. > :01:15.organisation shrug off a few poor reviews at Westminster. His
:01:15. > :01:18.father's biographer, along with one of his inquisitors and a News Corp
:01:18. > :01:22.shareholder. And we name the six towns in Britain with the most
:01:22. > :01:31.boarded up shops on the high street. Can they be saved by a TV celebrity,
:01:31. > :01:36.heading a Government mission. Shop Tsar Mary Portas has been
:01:36. > :01:45.called in as the high street cries out for a sexy new make-over, and
:01:45. > :01:50.ministers, as far as they can see, don't have a thing to wear.
:01:51. > :01:55.The riots which sent such a shock through Britain last month, were
:01:55. > :01:59.largely the work of criminals, the words of the Justice Secretary
:01:59. > :02:04.today echoed the Prime Minister, but at another level, his
:02:04. > :02:06.disclosure that three out of every four adults charged, already had a
:02:06. > :02:10.criminal conviction, raises big questions about what we do with
:02:10. > :02:15.people found guilty of crimes. Keneth Clarke describes the record
:02:15. > :02:23.of the penal system as "straight forwardly dreadful", and claims to
:02:23. > :02:27.be able to fix it. But how? As the CCTV footage is replayed,
:02:27. > :02:31.and more suspects identified and arrested, a fuller picture is
:02:31. > :02:36.emerging of those responsible for last month's disorder. In London
:02:36. > :02:42.there have been more than 2,000 arrests. Three quarters of those
:02:42. > :02:45.charged in connection with the riots had criminal convictions. So
:02:45. > :02:49.the opportunistic rioting and looting which police admitted today
:02:49. > :02:54.they were unprepared for, was largely the doing of what the
:02:54. > :02:57.Justice Secretary called "a feral underclass".
:02:57. > :03:01.Right after the rioters swept through this street in Hackney, I
:03:01. > :03:06.came down here, and remember people's shock at the speed and
:03:06. > :03:09.violence of the rampage. Now that we know that most of those
:03:09. > :03:14.responsible had previous convictions it raises new questions.
:03:14. > :03:17.Not just why did the riots happen, but why is it that people who have
:03:17. > :03:23.broken the law and been punished are apparently so willing to
:03:23. > :03:28.reoffend. Keneth Clarke, whose breezy
:03:28. > :03:32.attempts to cut prison sentence, infuriated many in his party,
:03:32. > :03:36.borrowed language they might applaud to condemn the rioters'
:03:36. > :03:41.outrageous behaviour. But he used it to argue again that prison isn't
:03:41. > :03:45.working. The idea that the length of a sentence is going to solve the
:03:45. > :03:49.problem is simplistic nonsense, and good the system worked t does give
:03:49. > :03:53.the punishment the public want to see, why doesn't that punishment do
:03:53. > :03:57.more good, we don't want them coming back again.
:03:57. > :04:01.There were minor disturbances at Westminster today, as London's
:04:01. > :04:07.mayor arrived to help MPs unpick what caused the trouble. Boris
:04:07. > :04:10.Johnson supported Mr Clarke's call for more adequate punishments that
:04:10. > :04:14.help offenders turn their lives around. If you arrest such a huge
:04:14. > :04:18.number of people, as we have, and you put them into the criminal
:04:18. > :04:23.justice system, you cannot simply abandon them there. The Government
:04:23. > :04:27.is holding an official inquiry, but in the meantime, MPs heard from the
:04:27. > :04:31.Met's Acting Commissioner, that, in the early phases of the disorder,
:04:31. > :04:34.mistakes had been made. Sometimes you suddenly realise how thin the
:04:34. > :04:39.blue line is, when you are confronted with such scale of
:04:39. > :04:44.disorder over such a large area. But the key for us, in terms of
:04:44. > :04:47.stragically getting under control, is crime has to have consequences.
:04:47. > :04:52.The arrest of the offenders had to be done swiftly and the courts had
:04:52. > :04:57.to respond quickly, that was the key we put into place, that had a
:04:57. > :05:01.significant impact in terms of the lack of repeat we then saw. But the
:05:01. > :05:05.effectiveness of what happens after arrest and prosecution is under
:05:05. > :05:09.scrutiny. While Ministry of Justice figures show the number of crimes
:05:09. > :05:13.committed by reoffenders is falling, campaigners say this doesn't tell
:05:13. > :05:19.the full story. Reoffending rates are staggeringly high, and have
:05:19. > :05:22.been for a very long time. That points us towards the fact that the
:05:22. > :05:28.criminal justice system should be doing better at focusing on that
:05:28. > :05:33.kind of work with offenders, seeking to reduce reoffending at a
:05:33. > :05:35.better rate than it currently does and protecting society from future
:05:35. > :05:40.victims being created, we are not doing that at the moment.
:05:40. > :05:44.police say the public are helping them to identify more suspected
:05:44. > :05:50.rioters. So far 1500 have appeared in court. But the poor outcomes for
:05:50. > :05:53.those qual slowed up by the criminal justice system, are -
:05:53. > :05:57.swallowed up by the criminal justice are not doing enough to
:05:57. > :06:02.stop them getting there in the first place, particularly those
:06:02. > :06:12.drawn towards crime. We heard 19% of those charged in London had
:06:12. > :06:17.links to gangs, and 21% were aged under 18. At Eastside Academy in
:06:17. > :06:24.London's East End, they have a system of mentoring black boys, it
:06:24. > :06:27.has led to a drive to recruit black men to help. It was launched at the
:06:27. > :06:31.time of the riots, prove detentionly says its founder.
:06:31. > :06:36.Something that can be effective for the child at the right time, if you
:06:36. > :06:39.take the academy, what we found, in our experience, where you intervene
:06:39. > :06:43.early and effectively and decisively, you can make a
:06:43. > :06:47.difference. Why? Because the boys are shown an alternative, and they
:06:47. > :06:52.are given an opportunity to lift their eyes beyond their current
:06:52. > :06:59.circumstances and see a different way.
:06:59. > :07:04.The Met have more than 20,000 hours of CCTV film still to wade through.
:07:04. > :07:06.More suspects will be marched into court. The fact so many of them
:07:06. > :07:12.have a criminal record already means they won't be alone in the
:07:12. > :07:16.dock. So will the system that put them
:07:16. > :07:20.there. With us now the criminal justice
:07:20. > :07:24.minister, Nick Herbert and Lord Fawkes, former Lord Chancellor and
:07:24. > :07:29.a Labour Party justice spokesman. Nick Herbert, what do you conclude
:07:29. > :07:32.from the fact that three quarters of those charged had a criminal
:07:32. > :07:36.record? That the criminal justice system has been failing. That it
:07:36. > :07:41.has not delivered the message that offending should have consequence,
:07:41. > :07:45.that a system that, sure, should punish people, should incapacitate
:07:45. > :07:49.them, actually hasn't done what it also needs to do, which is
:07:49. > :07:53.rehabilitate them, and prevent them from reoffending. It should make us
:07:53. > :07:57.think very hard about the fact that we are processing tens of thousands
:07:57. > :08:01.of offenders every year, but the very large majority of them are
:08:01. > :08:05.going on to reoffend in a very short space of time. We have to
:08:05. > :08:11.address that. This was a sample of 2,000 people? We know the
:08:11. > :08:16.reoffending rates are high any way. But in this particular case, the
:08:16. > :08:20.so-called feral, criminal underclass, was a sample of 2,000
:08:20. > :08:25.adults, of whom roughly three quarters had criminal records. We
:08:25. > :08:34.are talking about a feral criminal underclass of 1500 people? That is
:08:34. > :08:38.the plain fact that 75% of them had criminal conviction, and half of
:08:38. > :08:44.adult offenders leaving prison reoffend again within a year. We
:08:44. > :08:48.know the system is fail to go prevent that reoffending, that is
:08:48. > :08:51.why we have to go reform prisons to make them places of work rather
:08:51. > :08:54.than idleness. We have to look at the supervision and support we are
:08:54. > :08:59.giving offenders after they leave prison. It is why we have to deal
:08:59. > :09:02.with drugs in prison, and why we have to have far more effective
:09:02. > :09:07.community sentences. I would agree with many of those things, the idea
:09:07. > :09:10.it is the failure of the criminal justice system, on the basis of the
:09:10. > :09:15.figures produced by the Ministry of Justice today is utter nonsense.
:09:15. > :09:20.You have 77% of less than 1600 people described as having previous
:09:20. > :09:22.convictions or cautions, did they go to prison, were they fined for
:09:22. > :09:26.drunken driving. What on earth are you believing that the criminal
:09:26. > :09:29.justice system could do to stop it. What will your Government do, they
:09:29. > :09:33.have the highest prison population, and therefore, even less money to
:09:33. > :09:39.do anything about it? Well, firstly I think, that we should continue
:09:39. > :09:44.with our programme of radical reform of prisons. In particular,
:09:44. > :09:50.ideas like paying for effective rehabilitation, which the previous
:09:50. > :09:54.Government failed to deliver. reduce the reoffending rates. You
:09:54. > :09:58.are talking in fantasy land. need a criminal justice system that
:09:58. > :10:03.sends clear signals both in terms of how swift justice is, and how
:10:03. > :10:10.effective it is, that offending always has consequences. We have
:10:10. > :10:14.failed to do in the past. If you look at the time that is taken
:10:14. > :10:19.normally before you put offenders before a Magistrates' Court and
:10:19. > :10:22.bring a conclusion, it is 156 days, in this case it was swift and sends
:10:22. > :10:26.an important signal to offenders. We think there are very significant
:10:26. > :10:29.reforms to drive through, including the use of technology in courts and
:10:29. > :10:33.video links. That wouldn't have stopped the riots, would it? That
:10:33. > :10:37.will make justice more swift and sure. That is what the public want,
:10:37. > :10:40.it sends a clear message to the offenders. We focus on the
:10:40. > :10:44.rehabilitation. The vast majority of crime. You know it wouldn't have
:10:44. > :10:49.stopped the riots? You are talking nonsense. Half of all crime in this
:10:49. > :10:53.country, you know this as previous Lord Chancellor, is commit bid
:10:53. > :10:57.people already through the criminal justice system, the system has
:10:57. > :11:03.failed to deal with the offenders, we need to deal with that system.
:11:03. > :11:06.It hasn't stopped them reoffending? How many of them had cautions where
:11:06. > :11:10.nothing happened except a caution, how many did one offence of
:11:10. > :11:14.shoplifting. The idea you put on to the criminal justice system the
:11:14. > :11:18.whole responsibility for stopping the sorts of crime we saw. What
:11:18. > :11:28.your film showed very graphicically and accurately was gang culture is
:11:28. > :11:29.
:11:29. > :11:35.a very important part of it. What has happened since you came into
:11:35. > :11:39.power, and since your mayor is an increase of violence. You are not
:11:39. > :11:43.seriously saying it is a consequence of the 2010 election
:11:43. > :11:48.are you? No, but it is a much more productive line. This is the
:11:48. > :11:55.familiar old Labour line, it is all to do with reducing public spending,
:11:55. > :12:02.it is pathetic in terms of dying know six and no excuse - diagnosis,
:12:02. > :12:12.and no excuss. You need to have sharp criminal - No excuse?
:12:12. > :12:16.need to have sharp criminal justice, and discourage people from joining
:12:16. > :12:19.gangs. This idea that there weren't sufficient sentences in the past,
:12:19. > :12:23.which Ken's article said and Nick has just said, seems to be nonsense.
:12:23. > :12:28.Even if it were right, I'm not clear in my own mind what the
:12:28. > :12:31.Government are doing to do about it. For entirely understandable reasons
:12:31. > :12:35.the prison population is the highest it has ever been. What are
:12:35. > :12:40.you going to do. What are you actually going to do? Firstly, I
:12:40. > :12:43.agree with Charley to this extent, we need to look at the issues of
:12:43. > :12:47.social exclues, exactly what Iain Duncan Smith has been talking about
:12:47. > :12:49.today. We need to look at why it is that young people find themselves
:12:49. > :12:55.getting into the criminal justice system in the first place. Does
:12:55. > :12:59.that mean dealing with the gang stuff. Dealing with gangs both in
:12:59. > :13:02.terms of...Spending Money on that? Also in terms of effective
:13:02. > :13:07.intervention and the kind of alternative that is the mayor's
:13:07. > :13:11.adviser was talking about. Where will the money come from? With the
:13:11. > :13:14.prison population at its highest now. With a robust response. That
:13:14. > :13:17.is why the sentencing was absolutely right. It was your
:13:17. > :13:22.policy to reduce the prison population? It is the highest it
:13:22. > :13:26.has ever been. 8 7,000 or something. August is the lowest month.
:13:26. > :13:31.Prime Minister has made it clear sufficient prison sentences will be
:13:31. > :13:36.provided. Is it still your policy to reduce the prison population?
:13:36. > :13:39.is not. It was? No, the Prime Minister has made clear we will
:13:40. > :13:45.provide sufficient places. Your rehabilitation revolution was going
:13:45. > :13:50.to be funded out of the reduction in prison places. The right way to
:13:50. > :13:54.reduce in the long-term is to reduce reoffending, what we are
:13:54. > :13:57.focused on with the radical proposals to get new providers in,
:13:57. > :14:02.and interventions and help people get off drugs. The cost of failure
:14:02. > :14:12.is huge. You haven't the money to do it. You are spending your money
:14:12. > :14:13.
:14:13. > :14:16.on the extra prison places? payments savings are made by the
:14:16. > :14:19.radical programme. You should be supporting it. I would support very
:14:19. > :14:23.strongly improved measures to reduce reoffending, but I recognise
:14:23. > :14:27.for it to be done it involves intensive intervention that is cost
:14:27. > :14:30.money. You are not being realistic when you are saying...Your Solution
:14:30. > :14:35.as ever is to spend more public money. It may be there isn't the
:14:35. > :14:39.money, but you should be straight forward about it. We have the most
:14:39. > :14:41.expensive criminal justice system in the world. If spending more
:14:41. > :14:45.money we would have effective criminal justice now, we don't, we
:14:45. > :14:47.have the highest reoffending rates around. This is how well the money
:14:47. > :14:51.is spent, how effective the interventions are, and how well it
:14:51. > :14:56.is organised. Tell bus the changes with less money you get better -
:14:56. > :15:01.tell us about the changes, with less money you get better results.
:15:01. > :15:05.Swifter and insurer justice, and prison sentences, a scheme to pay
:15:05. > :15:09.by results to reduce reoffending, capture the savings, there are
:15:09. > :15:14.billions of pounds of cost of a failed system, if we can prevent
:15:15. > :15:18.that we can save money, reduce reoffending and make a better
:15:18. > :15:22.system. That is what we are talking about in social reform and penal
:15:22. > :15:25.reform. It is an optimistic message about how to improve the system.
:15:26. > :15:31.You have bequeathed a system with prisons full to prison, failing,
:15:31. > :15:35.spending more money. You have said it is no longer your policy to
:15:35. > :15:40.reduce the prison population, do you mind how big it goes? We have
:15:40. > :15:43.said the inexorable growth in the prison population we saw under the
:15:44. > :15:47.previous Government, when it is combined with high rates of
:15:47. > :15:52.reoffend something a vicious circle, we need to break that. Do you mind
:15:52. > :15:55.how high it goes, 8 7,000, where it is now, is that as high as it
:15:55. > :16:00.should go? I want the prison population to fall in the long-term,
:16:00. > :16:05.because it is effective at reducing reoffending. How high should it go?
:16:05. > :16:09.We want in the long-term to see a prison population not rising. We
:16:09. > :16:12.have not said, the Prime Minister made clear, we will provide
:16:12. > :16:15.sufficient prison places for those that the court sentence. That
:16:15. > :16:20.happened in the case of the riots and will continue to happen going
:16:20. > :16:24.forward. Your wholly commendable desire to reduce reoffending will
:16:24. > :16:28.involve greater expenditure in what goes on in prison, I'm not clear,
:16:28. > :16:34.from what you are saying, how you fund more prison places than ever
:16:34. > :16:37.before, and extra work in prison and more extra rehabilitation.
:16:37. > :16:42.have a welfare-to-work programme, you can pay a provider if he gets
:16:42. > :16:44.into work you can pay him for the success. You fund it by the person
:16:44. > :16:49.off benefits, you have made a savings and fund the intervention.
:16:49. > :16:55.We can have a payments by results system in the criminal justice
:16:55. > :16:58.system, which says if you can get somebody off reoffending and help
:16:58. > :17:02.them go straight with an effective intervention, whatever it is,
:17:02. > :17:06.mentoring, you get them to go straight, there is a saving to the
:17:06. > :17:11.criminal justice system because they are not incarcerated in future.
:17:11. > :17:15.You can capture that saving, and this is why it is an exciting,
:17:15. > :17:19.radical scheme to help reduce reoffending in the future. James
:17:19. > :17:22.Murdoch, the News International boss who denied knowing how
:17:22. > :17:26.widespread phone hacking was in his company, didn't tell investigating
:17:26. > :17:30.MPs the truth, maybe he did. A former company lawyer said it was
:17:30. > :17:36.inconceivable that Mr Murdoch was unaware how common the practice was.
:17:36. > :17:40.Mr Murd mur responded tonight by saying - Mr Murdoch responded
:17:40. > :17:44.tonight by saying he stood by his remark that he never saw an e-mail
:17:44. > :17:48.relating to staff. The stakes are high, not just for Murdoch himself.
:17:48. > :17:53.MPs have now asked thousands of questions about phone hacking. But
:17:53. > :17:58.through the hours and hours of testimony, and the thousands of
:17:58. > :18:01.hours of broadcasting, the central question hasn't really changed. Up
:18:01. > :18:05.until fairly recently, News International was insisting that
:18:05. > :18:08.phone hacking at the News of the World was confined to one rogue
:18:08. > :18:16.reporter, Clive Goodman, the paper's royal editor, who pleaded
:18:16. > :18:21.guilty and was jailed in 2007. However, that version of events is
:18:21. > :18:28.categorically contradicted by an e- mail, marked "for Neville", it
:18:28. > :18:30.shows transcript of messages left on the phone of Gordon Taylor, of
:18:30. > :18:33.the Professional Footballers Association. Clive Goodman is not
:18:33. > :18:39.called Neville, or as royal editor is he interested in the goings on
:18:39. > :18:43.in the world of football. Anyone who saw the "for Neville" e-mail,
:18:43. > :18:47.or learned of its contents, must have known that phone hacking went
:18:47. > :18:52.far beyond just one single journalist.
:18:52. > :18:57.The paper eventually settled with Gordon Taylor for a whopping
:18:57. > :19:02.�425,000, plus his legal expenses. According to News of the World's
:19:02. > :19:04.external lawyers, that was double the - News International's external
:19:04. > :19:08.lawyers that was double the amount he could have expected if the
:19:08. > :19:14.matter went to court. James Murdoch has signed off on the
:19:14. > :19:20.matter, he said he did not know about the "for Neville" e-mail.
:19:20. > :19:24.you see or were you made aware of the "for Neville" e-mail or message
:19:24. > :19:27.transcript. No, I was not ware of that time. When James Murdoch
:19:27. > :19:31.signed off the Taylor deal and its massive pay-off, there were two
:19:31. > :19:37.other people in the room. Today the select committee heard from both of
:19:37. > :19:41.them. And they both agree that they did tell James Murdoch, not only of
:19:41. > :19:49.the "for Neville" e-mail, but of its huge significance for the
:19:50. > :19:54.company, of which he was supposedly in charge. Tom Crone was legal
:19:54. > :20:00.manager at newsgroup newspapers, and Zdenek Mlynar was there when
:20:00. > :20:06.the settlement was approved. Do you regard the existence of the e-mail
:20:06. > :20:10.as evidence that the phone hacking was k cysting beyond Clive Goodman?
:20:10. > :20:14.That was the first evidence we had seen that it went beyond Clive
:20:14. > :20:17.Goodman. Given it was so significant, clearly it must have
:20:17. > :20:20.featured pretty large in your conversation with James Murdoch?
:20:21. > :20:24.Listen, it was the reason that we had to settle the case, and in
:20:24. > :20:30.order to settle the case, we had to explain the case to Mr Murdoch and
:20:30. > :20:32.get his authority to settle. So, certainly, it would would have been
:20:32. > :20:38.discussed. I cannot remember the detail of the conversation. And
:20:38. > :20:42.there isn't a note of it. The conversation lasts for quite a
:20:42. > :20:47.short period, less than 1547, or about 15 minutes, - 15 minutes, or
:20:47. > :20:51.about 15 minutes, it was discussed. But exactly what was said I can't
:20:51. > :20:55.recall. Inside the committee there was incredulity that at the same
:20:55. > :20:59.time the pair could be so sure in their recollection of their meeting
:21:00. > :21:03.with James Murdoch, but hazy as well. The bit I struggle with, if
:21:03. > :21:08.you are both adamant that James Murdoch knew the full extent of
:21:08. > :21:12.what you were telling him about the "for Neville" e-mail, the bit I
:21:12. > :21:16.struggle with, is this meeting lasted at the absolute maximum, 15
:21:16. > :21:20.minutes. It seems to me if you were telling James Murdoch, actually we
:21:21. > :21:24.have got evidence here that shows that other people at News of the
:21:24. > :21:29.World were involved in phone hacking, that's what we have got in
:21:29. > :21:33.our brief case here. That's why we must settle this case. I can't
:21:33. > :21:37.imagine how you could go through all of that and the implications of
:21:37. > :21:40.that in less than 15 minutes. is my recollection of how long that
:21:40. > :21:44.meeting would have taken. I can't speak for what Mr Murdoch
:21:44. > :21:47.understood at the time or not. I have seen what he has said since,
:21:47. > :21:51.I'm absolutely prepared to accept that he has his recollection wrong.
:21:51. > :21:55.I do, and I am certain, that I explained to him that this document
:21:55. > :21:59.had emerged and I explained what it was and why it meant that the
:21:59. > :22:04.defence that we had lodged in the case couldn't be run any further,
:22:04. > :22:09.we had to get out of it. Again and again, the committee attempted to
:22:09. > :22:12.extract more clarity. Was he clear that this meant there was further
:22:12. > :22:17.wrongdoing within the News of the World, as a result of the existence
:22:17. > :22:22.of that document? It seemed to be clear to other people. I'm not
:22:22. > :22:25.asking about other people, I'm asking about him. I can't speak for
:22:25. > :22:31.Mr Murdoch's recollection of this, and I can't speak for Mr Murdoch's
:22:31. > :22:35.view that he took away from that meeting. What I took away from that
:22:35. > :22:41.meeting was that there was an agreement to settle, and that is
:22:41. > :22:45.what happened. The significance is very clear, from Mr Murdoch's
:22:45. > :22:48.testimony, he said neither Mr Crone or Mr Mlynar said there was any
:22:48. > :22:51.wrongdoing by Mr Mulcaire, there was nothing from the meeting that
:22:51. > :22:54.led me to believe that further investigation is necessary. He's
:22:54. > :22:58.very clear on his recollection of the meeting and you are not.
:22:58. > :23:03.sorry, I am clear, there was no ambiguity of the significance of
:23:03. > :23:13.that document and what options were there for the company to take.
:23:13. > :23:26.
:23:26. > :23:29.statement tonight, James Murdoch It seems certain now that the
:23:29. > :23:33.committee will be recalling James Murdoch, the decision won't be
:23:33. > :23:38.taken until next week. With us now in the studio is
:23:38. > :23:44.Michael Wolff a contributing editor to Vanity Fair, and the biographer
:23:44. > :23:48.of Rupert Murdoch. Also here is Louise Mensch, the MP who sits on
:23:48. > :23:50.the Culture Select Committee, and we are joined by Donald Yacktman,
:23:50. > :23:55.President of Yacktman Asset Management Company, one of the
:23:55. > :23:59.biggest investors in News Corp. How much trouble is James Murdoch in do
:23:59. > :24:04.you think? Career-ending trouble. The trouble of his lifetime. I
:24:04. > :24:08.don't think you can exaggerate how much trouble he's in. His
:24:08. > :24:14.credibility has been virtually destroyed, and credibility is the
:24:14. > :24:19.coin of the realm when you're running a major coopgs. So it is
:24:19. > :24:23.over for him - Corporation. So it is over for him? It is over, but
:24:23. > :24:28.the over may take several months. On this particular issue, he has
:24:28. > :24:33.wriggle room, doesn't he? I think he has plenty. I think your report
:24:33. > :24:36.there was extremely fair. We saw testimony today, as your report
:24:36. > :24:39.said, members of the committee attempted to extract clarity, I
:24:39. > :24:43.attempted to extract some clarity, it was made clear n my own view,
:24:43. > :24:48.and I can't speak for the rest of the committee, that he had had
:24:49. > :24:52.agreed to settle the case. To my mind it was not at all made clear
:24:52. > :24:56.that he had been told definitively that wrongdoing extended beyond
:24:56. > :25:02.Goodman and Mulcaire. All you are establishing there is the
:25:02. > :25:12.possibility that he may stay out of jail. Anyone else looking at this
:25:12. > :25:14.
:25:14. > :25:17.says he's a dissemabler, he's a misrepresenter, he's someone, in an
:25:17. > :25:21.overarching way, is not fundamentally being straight, or
:25:21. > :25:24.doesn't know what was going on. will deny several of your
:25:24. > :25:27.accusations straight off, and they are not provable at this point?
:25:27. > :25:33.This is matter of perception, and a matter of people who have seen this
:25:34. > :25:39.week after week, month after month now, and you see a person who has
:25:39. > :25:49.paid an enormous amount of money for what possible reason? This is a
:25:49. > :25:53.
:25:53. > :25:56.matter of both perception and beyond that pure logic. As a major
:25:57. > :26:04.investor at News Corp, what do you make of what is happening here?
:26:04. > :26:09.makes for titilating press. But it doesn't effect...? As an investor
:26:09. > :26:15.our thesis, it doesn't effect our thesis of investment in this
:26:15. > :26:18.company. The basic thing we look for is a forward rate of return. If
:26:18. > :26:23.we were to buy a company and hold it for a long period of time, what
:26:23. > :26:28.kind of rate of return would we get. In fact, this might sound counter
:26:28. > :26:34.intuitive, that things that come out that knock the stock price down,
:26:34. > :26:37.we like because that means that we can buy more of it at good value
:26:37. > :26:41.and the company is in there buying their stock back. What have you
:26:41. > :26:45.been doing buying the stock for. You haven't kept pace even with the
:26:45. > :26:49.SNP, this is a money-losing investment you are looking at.
:26:50. > :26:54.Depends on what time frame you are looking at. We are very long-term
:26:54. > :26:56.investors. You have said you're a long-term investor, if you are a
:26:56. > :27:01.long-term investor in News Corporation, you have lost money?
:27:01. > :27:08.No, we haven't. We have made a ton of money. We bought it two years
:27:08. > :27:12.ago. If you had bet on the SNP, you're underwater, so on the most
:27:12. > :27:17.basic...Not At all. Absolutely wrong, you're absolutely wrong.
:27:17. > :27:20.Trust me, I could take over your business, because you
:27:20. > :27:28.absolutely...He Has half a billion dollars invested in this company,
:27:28. > :27:31.how much have you got invested in it? A lifetime of work. You are
:27:31. > :27:37.under water, you are absolutely under water on this company if you
:27:37. > :27:40.have held this over a long period of time. Let's broaden this out.
:27:40. > :27:44.ought this two years ago. You have invested in a company in which you
:27:44. > :27:50.don't have a vote. Can I finish. Hang on a second, in your judgment
:27:50. > :27:53.is there any possibility now of James Murdoch ever taking over News
:27:53. > :27:56.Corporation? There is no possibility of him taking this
:27:56. > :28:04.company over. And the company itself has basically now set this
:28:04. > :28:09.up. They don't refer to James as the heir any more. It is now Chase
:28:09. > :28:14.Carey is the person who will have the power passed to if Washington
:28:14. > :28:17.Post comes to worst. I think that the internal workings of News
:28:17. > :28:23.Corporation are a matter for them. What the committee is trying to do
:28:23. > :28:27.is establish the truth. I can speak purely only for myself, we heard an
:28:27. > :28:33.awful lot of muddied evidence today I thought and not a lot of clarity
:28:33. > :28:37.was brought to the table. Mr Wolff passion shows many people come to
:28:37. > :28:41.the Murdochs with a certain agenda, my job and the committee is to see
:28:41. > :28:46.if the previous committee was misled. You have done a fairly
:28:46. > :28:54.terrible job on. That I would suggest that all of you people
:28:54. > :28:58.should spend a smes ter at an American - sem mess ter at an
:28:58. > :29:08.American legal college. That is because you see hooves coming out
:29:08. > :29:11.
:29:11. > :29:15.of their head. I am not in any way a Murdoch antagonist. Are the
:29:15. > :29:19.Murdochs a fit and proper people to be running a company? I want to go
:29:19. > :29:23.back and address this other thing. If their credibility is a problem,
:29:23. > :29:28.the person that just spoke about righting a novel, or whatever it
:29:28. > :29:31.was. It is called a biography. Maybe it was a novel. A biography,
:29:31. > :29:35.your credibility has just been destroyed, because if you looked at
:29:36. > :29:41.where we bought News Corporation, and what's happened to the SNP in
:29:41. > :29:46.the interim, you have found out we have done well above the SNP in
:29:46. > :29:51.News Corp. You seem to have these very strong opinions and you don't
:29:51. > :29:58.know where you are coming from. have asserted the worthwhileness of
:29:58. > :30:01.holding shares in News Corp, what I'm wondering is how much your
:30:01. > :30:07.commercial judgment is affected by all these things that seem to be
:30:07. > :30:16.coming out about the way some elements of the Murdoch empire
:30:16. > :30:21.operate? Well, again, to us this is more politics and this is a deep
:30:21. > :30:29.bench. Mr Rupert Murdoch is the one who founded this company, and is,
:30:29. > :30:37.if you will, the brainchild behind is. And I think Chasecarey is an
:30:37. > :30:41.excellent - Chase Carey is an excellent executive and heir to
:30:41. > :30:43.this. I have empathy and I'm concerned about the company, but as
:30:44. > :30:47.far as whether James Murdoch runs it or not, I think this investment
:30:47. > :30:50.is still going to be a very good investment.
:30:50. > :30:54.You would be perfectly happy. have just heard a difference in the
:30:54. > :30:59.company line, they would never have said that two months ago. Sure. Let
:30:59. > :31:03.me clarify one thing, you would be perfectly happy as a major investor
:31:03. > :31:11.in this company to have James Murdoch take it over, would you?
:31:11. > :31:16.think it depends on the time frame. The overall circumstances as well.
:31:16. > :31:19.I think that is premature, that is the board of directors' decision,
:31:19. > :31:23.they are in a much better position to make that kind of decision. They
:31:23. > :31:26.should exercise it. Mensch, the other contribution on the question
:31:26. > :31:30.of the Murdoch empire today, came from the Prime Minister, your
:31:30. > :31:34.leader, who said perhaps, he had been too close and he should
:31:34. > :31:39.maintain distance in future. Can he realistically do that? I think he
:31:39. > :31:43.can certainly try, and one thing that will come out of the press
:31:43. > :31:46.inquiry in general is the closeness of politicians to the press. In our
:31:46. > :31:52.previous committee we heard testimony from Mr Rupert Murdoch b
:31:52. > :31:57.how close he had been to successive primes of all parties, how many
:31:57. > :32:00.times under - prime ministers, of all parties. And how he had gone in
:32:00. > :32:05.and out of the back door. The fact of the matter, contact between the
:32:05. > :32:09.press, the lobby and politicians had to be maintained, but from now
:32:09. > :32:13.on they would be logged and open. The fact there will be no more cosy
:32:13. > :32:20.fire side chats is perhaps a good thing. The people have a right to
:32:20. > :32:25.snow when the lead - know when the leaders are meeting press Barons,
:32:25. > :32:31.that won't stop but it needs to be transparent. If you look at the
:32:31. > :32:39.high street and see boarded up shops and the same dreary brands
:32:39. > :32:45.everywhere, don't despair. You could be in Hartlepool, west port,
:32:45. > :32:49.and west prom witch. They have the highest proportion of boarded up
:32:49. > :32:53.shops. The Government is concerned, and has asked Mary Portas, the so-
:32:53. > :33:03.called Queen of Shops, to investigate and come up with ideas
:33:03. > :33:04.
:33:05. > :33:10.of bringing back life to the high street. We have been out with them.
:33:10. > :33:16.Whoever said it is grim up north, never saw a walk about in Rotherham
:33:16. > :33:20.by television fashionista, Mary Portas. It is brilliant, something
:33:20. > :33:25.different. David Cameron's shops' Tsar. That said, not even her
:33:25. > :33:29.copper bob and towering heels, could entirely distract the eye
:33:29. > :33:33.from vacant premises and cut-price discount chains.
:33:33. > :33:43.Pound shops are catching on here, probably not for you. Probably not
:33:43. > :33:47.for you, either. Is that a pound jacket. What do you think of the
:33:47. > :33:50.schmutter? Lovely. This is what I believe in, I would be doing this
:33:50. > :33:56.despite Government. If Government support it, which I'm hoping they
:33:57. > :34:03.will, we will be able to, hopefully, leverage this a lot quicker than if
:34:03. > :34:08.working on your own or with councils. At this bakers in
:34:08. > :34:12.Rotherham Town centre, they warm up snacks for office workers, they say
:34:12. > :34:17.people prefer to go to supermarkets for the family loaf or the big shop,
:34:17. > :34:21.other outlets have simply disappeared. There is no gents'
:34:21. > :34:25.outlet, no toy shops, you can't entertain the kiddies for half an
:34:25. > :34:28.hour in the toy shop. There is nothing like, that you send them
:34:28. > :34:37.into Argos and look through a catalogue. That is not the same for
:34:37. > :34:43.kids, they like to touch. In the shopping jargon, the foot
:34:43. > :34:47.fall has all been going away from the high street in many farts of
:34:47. > :34:51.the country. But analyst - parts of the country, but this analyst has
:34:51. > :34:55.been heading in the other direction, crunching the number of shops as
:34:55. > :35:01.they shut. As recently as two years ago, only 6% of shops on Britain's
:35:01. > :35:06.high streets were disuse the. Now more than 14% - disused, now more
:35:06. > :35:10.than 14% of them are. That is 39,000. The reality that comes out
:35:10. > :35:13.of this, is we have permanent change here, and some of the
:35:13. > :35:16.centres that are right up in the high, one in three shops being
:35:16. > :35:21.vacant, will never go back to what they used to be. Therefore, there
:35:21. > :35:28.has to be some kind of change of use, or purpose for that centre.
:35:28. > :35:34.some towns, well over a quarter of shops are idle and shut up.
:35:34. > :35:41.Newsnight has discovered that the six places with the biggest
:35:41. > :35:45.Even very respected people are saying get rid of the high street,
:35:45. > :35:48.it is finished, it is out of town? I think there are some towns, I
:35:48. > :35:52.don't think it is finished, that is ridiculous, we have towns where it
:35:52. > :35:59.is working. There are towns where it is dead, the horse has bolted.
:35:59. > :36:02.Just give up on those? Give up. There are some towns we can look at
:36:02. > :36:05.a rejuvenation, whether that is housing or looking how to change
:36:05. > :36:09.some of the towns. That has to be done, it is bonkers to say we can
:36:09. > :36:13.do them all, we won't be able to. There are many towns that have
:36:13. > :36:19.great potential to do that. It is looking at what that new business
:36:19. > :36:26.model will be, and looking at how consumers have changed. This is the
:36:26. > :36:36.severed foot there. �2.99, fantastic for the kids. What
:36:36. > :36:37.
:36:37. > :36:42.whether they go for? An arm and a leg! Yes, more delicate retailers
:36:42. > :36:46.may recoil in terror. But pile them high and sell them cheap are rising
:36:46. > :36:49.from the tomb of the high street as we knew and loved it. The low-
:36:49. > :36:55.budget shops, which are opening as others go dark, course well on
:36:55. > :37:01.price and convenience. But they claim they can only operate at
:37:01. > :37:05.bargain basement wage levels. pay the minimum wage, and then
:37:05. > :37:08.obviously the staff, the supervisors and the managers are
:37:09. > :37:15.obviously on more money, yeah. that fair and ethical, are you
:37:15. > :37:19.making profits on the back of your workers? Absolutely not, we are
:37:19. > :37:23.here and trading at the absolute minimum on the profit margins. The
:37:23. > :37:27.profit margins are very inthis. You are right in what you said earlier,
:37:27. > :37:31.it is stack it high and sell it cheap, that is the only way we
:37:31. > :37:38.could do it. You couldn't afford to pay them more? The model wouldn't
:37:38. > :37:42.work. But on the stay the Shops' Tsar
:37:42. > :37:48.came to town, we found innovative thinking in Rotherham. Council
:37:48. > :37:54.workers tried to brighten the centre by getting rid of chewing
:37:54. > :37:58.gum. It changed the it into a crime scene out of an old detective
:37:58. > :38:02.movie! Remember the numbers that come back. After this shoe
:38:02. > :38:05.shopowner was refused a loan by the banks to expand his business, the
:38:05. > :38:09.borough council are thinking of stepping in to act as guarantor.
:38:09. > :38:14.They wanted to buy the buildings themself, when the new Government
:38:14. > :38:16.came in, they said draw a line under that, we stepped in to try it,
:38:16. > :38:21.they have been very supportive, they will be guarantors against a
:38:21. > :38:27.mortgage for us. We won't get the money, we have to pay every penny
:38:27. > :38:31.back, they will be behind us assuring the lender we will repay.
:38:31. > :38:37.Do you want Mary to buy a pair of boots while she's here? She can
:38:37. > :38:42.have a pair if she likes. Is that Newsnight, ever sophisticated. What
:38:42. > :38:47.is curious about the Shops' Tsar, including the ministers who
:38:47. > :38:52.recruited her, is she believes shops aren't necessarily the answer.
:38:52. > :38:56.I don't know if I'm optimistic, I'm realistic, I will give it my best
:38:56. > :39:00.shot in thinking what the future might be for retail in the town
:39:00. > :39:07.centre, it might not be the mix we have seen over the last 20 years,
:39:07. > :39:11.and we will be looking at a very different mix t might not be retail,
:39:11. > :39:15.but social meeting places and any reason to get people back in, if we
:39:15. > :39:19.won't we will have social problems back on our hands. We have seen
:39:19. > :39:23.that, even with the riots, if there isn't a sense of belonging. Mary
:39:23. > :39:27.Portas says she has had no guarantees from Government that
:39:27. > :39:34.they will implement her advice in the autumn, when she offers the
:39:34. > :39:40.high street her brand of retail therapy.
:39:40. > :39:44.Rodney Fitch has styled many of Britain's most famous shop fronts,
:39:44. > :39:48.including Top Shop, and Phillip Blond, a self-styled red story is
:39:48. > :39:51.the founder and director of the - red story is the founder and
:39:51. > :39:55.director of the think-tank, ResPublica. What preserve of the
:39:55. > :39:58.Government is it to try to preserve the high street? It is up to the
:39:58. > :40:01.Government to represent the interests of the people. Very
:40:01. > :40:04.clearly an overwhelming majority of people in this country care very
:40:04. > :40:09.deeply about their high street, the mix of t and what's happening to it.
:40:09. > :40:14.In that case, why don't they shop there? You have hit on one of the
:40:14. > :40:18.issues. What I think is interesting is people can want one thing and do
:40:18. > :40:24.another. What is really interesting is if we look at what is happening
:40:24. > :40:27.to the town centres, there is three factors, there are, genuinely,
:40:27. > :40:33.uncompetitive practices going on, by for instance, supermarkets and
:40:33. > :40:36.out of town developments. There are supsidies to that business model,
:40:36. > :40:40.and small shops and local shops have to get their act together a
:40:40. > :40:44.lot are awful. We need a new way of delivering local retail. You would
:40:44. > :40:49.agree, as a member of this society, that it is better that we have
:40:49. > :40:55.healthy high streets than unhealthy high streets, presumably? I would
:40:55. > :41:00.agree we have, it is better we have healthy shopping, rather than
:41:00. > :41:03.necessarily healthy high streets. I think I agri with Mary, and that
:41:03. > :41:06.little film - agree with Mary and the film, there are some high
:41:06. > :41:14.street that is are very good, other high streets are very poor. The
:41:15. > :41:17.people deserve better. It is already talking about Government
:41:17. > :41:21.intervention and they should do this and that. But the people
:41:21. > :41:28.choose. You don't live by shopping alone? More or less it is the
:41:28. > :41:33.purpose of life, more or less. It is a huge economic driver, it is
:41:33. > :41:39.what people like to do. I know of a study going on for 15 years, across
:41:39. > :41:45.19 countries, and at no time in any year has shopping been out of the
:41:45. > :41:50.top four things that people want to do. And you don't give a monkeys if
:41:50. > :41:53.people are going off to out-of-town shopping centres, where they see
:41:53. > :41:59.all the same sorts of shops as they would see anywhere else and the
:41:59. > :42:02.heart of their town dies? That isn't true. They go to these
:42:02. > :42:08.places...I'm Asking if you care or not? I care about people shopping
:42:08. > :42:14.well, I care about that very much. They will find, people find better
:42:14. > :42:18.shopping in places other than traditional high streets. I think
:42:18. > :42:21.it is not the people needing to stop shopping, they can shop
:42:21. > :42:25.differently. The ways of shopping differently is changing the way in
:42:25. > :42:30.which we sell goods and the way in which we buy goods. But if we stay
:42:30. > :42:33.as we are, let's be clear, we will have a shopping centre just full of
:42:33. > :42:37.cloned stores, charity shops and pound shops, and nobody, in my view,
:42:37. > :42:41.in this country, wants that. So we need to do something to change the
:42:41. > :42:45.game. He does? He has a vested interest in that, also it is an
:42:45. > :42:49.interesting comment to make. But I think in his hearts of hearts he
:42:49. > :42:54.doesn't believe that. I bet where he chooses to live he won't select
:42:54. > :43:00.to live near a town which has that dead centre. Apart from hoping
:43:00. > :43:03.people will have some conversion to shopping on the high street, and
:43:03. > :43:09.high street retailers sharpen their act up. Have you other ideas what
:43:09. > :43:13.to do with high streets? You can remove the subsidies that the
:43:13. > :43:21.present model, one of those supsidies is rate relief on car
:43:21. > :43:27.parking. That see sengsly in town retailing - that is paying rates on
:43:27. > :43:31.parking spaces in the town and the out of town doesn't. The Localism
:43:31. > :43:41.Bill Hasselhoff moved to allow town centres to be free not to charge
:43:41. > :43:43.
:43:43. > :43:48.and open up car - the loyalism bill has moved to allow town centres to
:43:48. > :43:52.be free from rates for packing. local authorities make it difficult
:43:52. > :43:55.for them to use the high street, and if the Government is to be an
:43:55. > :44:01.interventionist Government, which I personally worry about, they should
:44:01. > :44:04.be trying to join up the dots, rather than just...They Already
:44:04. > :44:09.have, in the last few days the Government has shown very clearly
:44:09. > :44:13.it has removed the restrictions on car parking, so from now on, town
:44:13. > :44:17.centres will be free to do whatever they want in respect of car parks.
:44:17. > :44:22.Also, what is interesting, is the Government has, once again,
:44:22. > :44:25.reasserted the priority of in-town development. For new development it
:44:25. > :44:29.has doubled the period of time in which the assessment for
:44:29. > :44:35.sustainability takes place. So I think there are things we can do.
:44:35. > :44:44.It is not inevitable. It sound like King Kantue? It is not, already we
:44:44. > :44:49.have very successful town centres, Mary has spoken about things do -
:44:49. > :44:52.doing well. She has also conceded some will go under? Town centres
:44:52. > :44:57.can be different, they can be a way to bring theatre and leisure to
:44:57. > :45:01.people. New ways to make town centres exciting places. Unless
:45:01. > :45:05.local retail gets its act together. We have small shopkeepers operating
:45:05. > :45:10.in ways that don't help the whole area, we need to get them to
:45:10. > :45:15.operate as an area to change the mix of their area and open it up to
:45:15. > :45:20.new entrants. We really shouldn't think about some kind of romantic
:45:20. > :45:26.high street of the past with the local butcher and the local baker,
:45:26. > :45:30.et cetera. What would you use it for? What would you use the high
:45:30. > :45:34.street for. Mary gave something of an indication. There is so much
:45:34. > :45:38.innovation in the retail business and technology, it is the most
:45:38. > :45:46.dynamic of industries, retail will find its own level. What to do with
:45:46. > :45:50.the high street. What it won't do is put back poor quality bakers,
:45:50. > :45:53.poor quality butchers because the people won't go there. They won't
:45:53. > :45:59.use it. But it is false choice, nobody is arguing for that.
:45:59. > :46:03.Everybody wants to have high- quality, local retail there is lots
:46:03. > :46:07.of measures you can do to generate. That you can remove the supsidies
:46:07. > :46:12.of a model that destroys town centres and put in innovative new
:46:12. > :46:15.practices to change the mix but renew our cities and towns.
:46:15. > :46:19.Tomorrow morning's front pages now. The Guardian says James Murdoch
:46:19. > :46:29.will be recalled, although the decision has not yet been taken by
:46:29. > :46:44.
:46:44. > :46:49.the media select committee, it That's it for tonight. The Rugby
:46:49. > :46:55.World Cup begins on Friday, in New Zealand on every corner of every
:46:55. > :47:05.street and shopping mall, flash mobs of Kiwi youth are gathering to
:47:05. > :47:34.
:47:34. > :47:37.Hello there, pretty windy outside. The winds dropping further through
:47:37. > :47:41.the early hours. Tomorrow will be breezy but not as strong, the wind,
:47:41. > :47:44.not as gusty as it was during Tuesday. There will be a lot of
:47:44. > :47:47.showers, mostly focused across western Scotland and North West
:47:47. > :47:52.England. To the east of the Pennine, one or two getting through, a good
:47:52. > :47:56.chance of staying dry. A dryer day across East Anglia, not many
:47:56. > :47:59.showers here, and there should, at times, be sunshine coming through.
:47:59. > :48:03.After a bright start it will cloud over in the south west. A few
:48:03. > :48:07.showers could drift by on the breeze, overall a dryer day on
:48:07. > :48:11.Tuesday, as it will be in South Wales. Northern parts of Wales will
:48:11. > :48:15.see fairly frequent showers blown in on a strong wind t will be a
:48:15. > :48:18.windy day across Northern Ireland. Not much sunshine here, cloudy with
:48:18. > :48:22.frequent showers. The showers will pepper western Scotland as well.
:48:22. > :48:26.Not too many getting to the north- east a good chance of sunshine for
:48:26. > :48:29.the likes of Aberdeenshire. It will feel cool wherever you are because
:48:29. > :48:33.of the strength of the wind. By Thursday the winds are easing,
:48:33. > :48:43.across Scotland it is looking like a dryer day with a better chance of
:48:43. > :48:48.