:00:13. > :00:19.President Assad's gunmen open fire on unarmed civilian, the reality of
:00:19. > :00:23.life inside the city of Homs. Shot in the stomach and too scared
:00:23. > :00:27.even to get first aid at one of the country's hospitals, this man
:00:27. > :00:32.reached London last night. He brings a firsthand account of life
:00:32. > :00:37.under attack by a dictator's thugs. Also tonight, the brewing world
:00:37. > :00:43.currency crisis, this was the best the euro's public defender could
:00:43. > :00:48.come up with today. No, there is nothing provided for leaving the
:00:48. > :00:54.eurozone, it is not a cafe, you go in and you go out. That's all right
:00:54. > :00:57.then. I'm pro-choice, I am pro- choice, despite the fact that I am
:00:57. > :01:02.represented as pro-life in every newspaper.
:01:02. > :01:06.And the MP who wanted to change the abortion laws is comprehensively
:01:06. > :01:11.defeated in the House of Commons s it time for her to give up. Look
:01:12. > :01:17.here is the deal mi, momdad split up, because my dad decided to stay
:01:17. > :01:24.in Lebanon, even though he's will he be nee, but not a suicide bomber.
:01:24. > :01:33.- will he be knees but not - Lebanese but not a suicide bomber.
:01:33. > :01:37.Can comedy bridge the gap between Islam and the best.
:01:37. > :01:41.Forces loyal to the Syrian dictator, Bashar al-Assad, killed, perhaps,
:01:41. > :01:44.14 more of their countrymen today. As ever the details are very hard
:01:44. > :01:49.to come from, since foreign observers are banned from the
:01:49. > :01:53.country. The attack came in Homs, which is Syria's third city, and is
:01:53. > :01:59.under attack for days now. If Assad's thugs think they can get
:01:59. > :02:04.away with their killing completely without witnesses, they are wrong.
:02:04. > :02:08.A British citizen of Syrian descent was shot in Homs ten days ago. He
:02:08. > :02:13.and his family fled Syria, arriving in the UK last night. How
:02:13. > :02:19.frequently are these demonstrations taking place? Every day. Every day
:02:19. > :02:23.at night they come out about 5,000, in every area, in Homs. This is
:02:23. > :02:29.despite the fact that people shoot into the crowd? Yeah, of course.
:02:29. > :02:33.They shoot us every day. They come in cars, armies come in and tanks
:02:33. > :02:38.sometimes. Without us even knowing. Have you seen tanks? I have seen
:02:38. > :02:43.everything. Have you lost friends? I have lost 14 of my friends. I
:02:43. > :02:52.actually lost one today. Shot? They have all been shot, bombed
:02:52. > :02:55.away, shot. Taken to prison, came out dead. You filmed one of these
:02:55. > :03:04.demonstrations on your mobile phone, we are going to look at the
:03:04. > :03:14.pictures now, and let's run them now and have a look at them.
:03:14. > :03:25.
:03:25. > :03:29.It is quite hard to work out exactly what is happening here. You
:03:29. > :03:34.are running, holding your phone? Yep. And we see just, we saw just
:03:34. > :03:37.at the edge of the frame there a body lying on the ground. Do you
:03:37. > :03:41.recall how many people were shot down in that? There was about two
:03:42. > :03:45.shot in that ground. You got used to bodies. When you are living and
:03:45. > :03:48.going out on these protests every day, you get used to seeing bodies
:03:48. > :03:53.every day. You are going to have to drag them off the floor, pick them
:03:53. > :04:00.up or take people to hospital. you see the people doing the
:04:00. > :04:05.shooting? Army. Security, people wearing...In Uniform? And people
:04:05. > :04:13.wearing civilian clothes going out with them. They have mn guns, bomb,
:04:13. > :04:16.everything. - machine guns, bombs, everything. Are they aiming or
:04:16. > :04:20.firing indiscriminatly into the crowds? Three carters of the shots
:04:20. > :04:23.are aimed, one quarter - three quarters of the shots are aimed,
:04:23. > :04:28.one quarter just to scare people. After that particular demonstration
:04:28. > :04:32.we just saw there, you yourself were attacked and shot? Yes, of
:04:33. > :04:36.course. What happened? Actually it was about two days after that, I
:04:36. > :04:41.was sitting at night, standing with my friend talking about medication,
:04:41. > :04:46.food, we were actually going to take it to Hama. They need a lot of
:04:46. > :04:49.medication and food. That is in another town? That is a another
:04:49. > :04:54.town. We have to smuggle it in there. If the security actually
:04:54. > :04:59.catch medication with us and food, they will actually take it out and
:04:59. > :05:03.burn it. So you were standing around talking with your friend?
:05:03. > :05:06.What happened? Car came by and through a grenade, I actually
:05:06. > :05:10.thought it was a firework. I looked at my friend and said it is not
:05:10. > :05:15.even time for that kind of stuff. It is funny, fireworks and shooting,
:05:15. > :05:19.it is not time for that shooting now. The car parked right behind me,
:05:19. > :05:25.two metres behind me and the car, opened the window and started
:05:25. > :05:31.shooting. I didn't feel the bullet in the beginning. Did you see the
:05:31. > :05:35.gun, handgun or a rifle? It was handgun. You felt the bullet?
:05:35. > :05:39.about two seconds. Where did he shoot you? In my waist and it came
:05:39. > :05:44.out my back. If it wasn't for my friend I would be killed. He
:05:44. > :05:49.actually threw me on the floor, stood in front of me, they shot him
:05:49. > :05:55.three times in the stomach, leg and hand. What happened then? The car
:05:55. > :06:01.ran away. As usual. It took the people about five minutes to get to
:06:01. > :06:05.us. I wasn't shouting, and my friend was unconscious. Then I
:06:05. > :06:08.started shouting and everyone saw us, dragged us on the floor. They
:06:08. > :06:12.couldn't pick us up, there was only two. Actually dragged me. Then the
:06:12. > :06:17.people, everyone came, started picking us up and took us to
:06:17. > :06:21.hospitals. When you got to the hospital, what happened there?
:06:21. > :06:26.stayed for about 40 minutes the. They had to let me out quickly.
:06:26. > :06:32.Why? Because the security forces would actually come to the hospital.
:06:32. > :06:37.If they find anybody with an injury, even in the leg, you come out with
:06:37. > :06:39.an injury through the head. You get shot in the head. You had a bullet
:06:40. > :06:44.passed through your body, it requires more than one visit to a
:06:44. > :06:47.hospital, did you go back to the hospital? Of course, not, no. I
:06:47. > :06:52.can't go back to the hospital, they will be there waiting for people to
:06:52. > :06:56.come back. I didn't even go in my name, they put a stranger's name
:06:56. > :07:01.there, they wait for people to come back the next day. They shoot at
:07:01. > :07:05.night waith in the morning. They go at night to the hospitals too. We
:07:05. > :07:10.have hospitals in houses. people's houses, where doctors can
:07:10. > :07:15.look after you a little bit? Which they find and destroy and burn.
:07:15. > :07:20.did you get out of the country? Really easy actually, I just went
:07:20. > :07:24.to the airport and left. The Government is so stupid, the Syrian
:07:24. > :07:29.Government, I have never seen anybody so stupid, they think
:07:29. > :07:35.Facebook is a device. They ask people where's Facebook. Where's
:07:35. > :07:40.your Facebook, why haven't you got Facebook with you. They didn't pat
:07:40. > :07:43.you down, frisk you, you presumably were swatheed in bandages? I told
:07:43. > :07:47.them I had an operation a kidney operation, they believed it and let
:07:47. > :07:56.me in. You were carrying a British passport. I had a British passport,
:07:56. > :07:59.that is actually why they wouldn't dare say anything. If I had a
:07:59. > :08:04.British or American or any European passport they let me through didn't
:08:04. > :08:10.say anything. Would you think about going back? Hopefully I will.
:08:10. > :08:14.Hopefully, you want to go back? want to go back. Why? Well, my
:08:14. > :08:18.friend are being killed every single day. I like being there, I
:08:18. > :08:22.like helping people. I have got used to helping people. It has been
:08:23. > :08:26.my life for six months. It has been my life. I haven't got a job, I'm
:08:26. > :08:31.not even studying, that is how everybody is now in Homs, and most
:08:31. > :08:36.of Syria. No jobs, no studying, that is our life. Do you believe
:08:36. > :08:40.eventually you will topple him? yeah, we will. But he has all the
:08:40. > :08:44.guns? He can't stop us, he will have to kill millions to stop us.
:08:44. > :08:48.People won't stop. If we stop that would be the end of us. He will
:08:48. > :08:53.actually get us one by one, we know. That he has videos of every single
:08:53. > :08:57.protestor going out, he will catch us one by one if we stop. It gets
:08:57. > :09:03.calm for day or two. Thank you very much. You are very
:09:03. > :09:10.welcome. Oh, not to be in Euroland now that
:09:10. > :09:14.autumn is here, but where to be instead. The economic crisis is
:09:14. > :09:18.generating a monetary crisis like some pin ball machine, vast sums of
:09:18. > :09:22.money are going here and there as investors try to find a safe haven.
:09:22. > :09:32.The authorities in Switzerland are so alarmed by the in rush, they
:09:32. > :09:37.
:09:37. > :09:42.have tried to set a ceiling on the value of the Swiss franc.
:09:42. > :09:50.When back street players shoot craps, they bet against each other.
:09:50. > :09:55.It is case of, I win, you loose. An easy way to get yourself fleeced.
:09:55. > :09:58.Now the global currency markets are looks like a craps game, the stakes
:09:58. > :10:02.rising, everybody trying to load the dice. Suddenly we are seeing
:10:02. > :10:07.big swings in the currency markets. Some Governments are intervene to
:10:07. > :10:13.go depress the value of their currencies, the euro, to stop it
:10:13. > :10:17.breaking up. Why? It was the Swiss, yesterday, who
:10:17. > :10:22.made the latest move, they fixed a flaw for the Swiss franc against
:10:22. > :10:25.the euro and promised to spend unlimited amounts of money to make
:10:26. > :10:30.it stick. The Swiss themselves have argued that the market is pushing
:10:30. > :10:33.the Swiss franc to a point where it is becoming harmful for Switzerland
:10:33. > :10:37.itself. It is creating disinflationary, deflationry
:10:37. > :10:41.pressures. It is making their exports totally uncompetitive, and
:10:41. > :10:46.they just feel it is a complete misalignment, that the market is
:10:46. > :10:49.not capable, really, of having a fair and free value for the Swiss
:10:49. > :10:54.franc. But there are bigger currencies
:10:54. > :10:58.than the Swiss in play. The dollar, as America gets ready
:10:58. > :11:04.for a third round of quoosing, is having a big im- quantitative
:11:04. > :11:09.easing, is having a big impact. After the Leeming crisis hit,
:11:09. > :11:15.Governments, above all - Lehman crisis hit, Governments above all
:11:15. > :11:19.started to print money. Money flows to Japan, and Brazil, forcing their
:11:19. > :11:23.currencies to rise, they are fighting back. I don't think we are
:11:23. > :11:27.facing a currency war, we are escalating within the context of
:11:27. > :11:31.currency wars. Where this is leaving us is that many countries
:11:31. > :11:37.in the world do not want to have the other side of dollar weakness,
:11:37. > :11:42.but I am afraid, with the situation in the US, with them having zero
:11:42. > :11:47.interest rates, practically exhausted fiscal policy, they have
:11:47. > :11:50.tried QE1, QE-2, there is talk of QE3, the one thing the US has left
:11:50. > :11:55.is a weaker dollar, the world will have to accept stronger currencies.
:11:55. > :11:59.It was the man who now runs America's Central Bank, who taught
:11:59. > :12:05.us that in the 1930s, those who devalued first, recovered first.
:12:05. > :12:09.Now, as everybody tries to devalue, some think the shadow of the 1930s
:12:09. > :12:12.looms large. Quantitative easing, printing of money, intervention in
:12:12. > :12:17.currency markets, whether it is the Swiss or the Japanese, or anybody
:12:17. > :12:21.else, is really the same thing about trying to steal some sort of
:12:22. > :12:24.competitive advantage against the risk of economic decline and
:12:24. > :12:28.deterioration. What happens when everybody does it? The danger is
:12:28. > :12:34.that if we all do this, in uncontrolled fashion, we will just
:12:34. > :12:38.drive ourselves into a depression where nobody actually wins.
:12:38. > :12:41.While some countries devalue against each other, to try to
:12:41. > :12:45.compete their way out of the crisis, the irony is, the countries that
:12:45. > :12:49.might like to, can't, southern Europe, stuck within the eurozone,
:12:49. > :12:54.is stagnating, so the tensions within the single currency are
:12:54. > :12:59.rising. Italy tonight voted for a new
:12:59. > :13:03.austerity programme in the teeth of strikes and protests. In Germany, a
:13:03. > :13:07.crucial court decision paved the way for the Greek bailout. But
:13:07. > :13:12.economists think the permanent solution is Euro-bonds, effectively
:13:12. > :13:16.pooling the national debts of all the countries in the eurozone.
:13:16. > :13:20.Today, the President of the European Council was in London, and
:13:21. > :13:26.when asked about how we get out of this mess, he said he wasn't
:13:26. > :13:28.interested in megaphone diplomacy. It is very difficult to hear you
:13:28. > :13:33.refusing to share your proposals to the European people. If, for
:13:33. > :13:38.example, you are in favour of Euro- bonds, surely you state you are in
:13:38. > :13:41.favour of them. That is not megaphone diplomacy, it is just
:13:41. > :13:46.democracy? After refusing to answer my question, he eventually answered
:13:46. > :13:51.it from somebody else. It is not a solution tomorrow to say let's
:13:51. > :13:58.create what we call Euro-bonds and put all the sovereign bonds in one
:13:58. > :14:02.basket, the good ones, the bad one, the weak ones, the strong ones,
:14:02. > :14:09.where we do something together. No, we can envisage all this, we have
:14:09. > :14:12.to consider all options, but always, in the framework of fiscal
:14:12. > :14:16.discipline. Some experts believe that Euro-bonds, for legal and
:14:16. > :14:21.economic reasons, will never fly. What would happen essentially is
:14:21. > :14:24.the French and Germans would be guarnteeing virtually the entire
:14:24. > :14:28.deficits and debts of Italy and Spain and so on, which would be
:14:28. > :14:33.raising their own funding cost as a consequence. They would essentially
:14:33. > :14:36.end up with a level of indebtedness fairly similar to Italy today, that
:14:36. > :14:40.is completely inconceivable they would agree to that. Another thing
:14:40. > :14:45.to note about this is the German constitutional court's judgment
:14:45. > :14:49.today pretty much, in essence, rules out the possibility of Euro-
:14:49. > :14:52.bonds, it says Euro-bond, in effect, would violate the German
:14:52. > :14:57.constitution. All over the world politicians are trying to remove
:14:57. > :15:00.their currencies from the pressure of the markets. The markets,
:15:00. > :15:04.meanwhile believe it can't be done, that the truth will out. Some money,
:15:04. > :15:09.right now is flowing out of the European banks, and investors are
:15:09. > :15:13.fleeing Spain and Italy, and developments like this pose
:15:13. > :15:21.questions you just can't refuse to answer.
:15:21. > :15:24.And every day of economic turmoil brings another throw of the dice.
:15:24. > :15:27.Two wisemen, two wise women. Gillian Tett, the US managing
:15:27. > :15:32.editor of the Financial Times is here, the economist, Vicky Pryce,
:15:32. > :15:38.Conservative MP and former Deutsche Bank executive, Sajid Javid, and
:15:38. > :15:43.joining us from Brussels is Richard Corbett, a former Labour MEP who
:15:44. > :15:48.now advises the President. Will the euro survive? It is entering very
:15:48. > :15:51.dangerous trry. The eurozone leaders now have been playing for
:15:51. > :15:55.time. They have been kicking the can down the road, that a bit of
:15:55. > :16:00.growth would bail them out. What has changed in the last few weeks
:16:00. > :16:03.is the markets have realised that time isn't going to solve this. The
:16:03. > :16:08.economy economies are far from growing and slowing down, and the
:16:08. > :16:12.markets are getting more panicked. Do either of you think the euro
:16:12. > :16:16.will survive? It will have to, there is no way to let it go, the
:16:16. > :16:18.costs for everyone involved would be so huge, it can't be
:16:18. > :16:22.contemplated. The constitution court can say what it likes to
:16:22. > :16:27.Merkel, but actually, if they need to lend for more the euro to
:16:27. > :16:31.survive they will. It absolutely will not survive in its current
:16:31. > :16:35.form, it was a project flawed from the beginning, an A-level student
:16:35. > :16:38.could have told you that. It has turned into a bankruptcy machine,
:16:38. > :16:43.it was always destined to. If you look at the countries experiencing
:16:43. > :16:48.the greatest problems, Greece, Ireland, Portugal, the causes might
:16:48. > :16:53.be different, but the trigger is the same, the euro. If apocalypse
:16:53. > :16:57.will be avoided, how can it be avoided for the euro, if anybody
:16:57. > :17:02.cares? The real point is it can't survive in the current form. We all
:17:02. > :17:06.agree we can't have the countries being allowed, if you like, to
:17:06. > :17:09.carry on borrowing without doing anything major about the way they
:17:09. > :17:13.run their economy. We have inevitably have to move towards
:17:13. > :17:17.greater union, a fiscal union doesn't mean all fiscal policies
:17:17. > :17:21.will be the same, actually there will be a lot more co-ordination of
:17:21. > :17:24.policies across. If that is achieved and package developed in
:17:24. > :17:27.the future. Everybody realise that is Greece won't be able to meet the
:17:27. > :17:30.austerity plan at the moment. If there is an allowance for countries
:17:30. > :17:34.like Greece and others, to reform their economy, to benefit in the
:17:34. > :17:38.long-term from being in the euro, that is the requirement. Do you
:17:38. > :17:42.that is feasible? It is two appalling choice, the cost of
:17:42. > :17:49.breakup would be huge. UBS, the investment bank, have done a study
:17:49. > :17:53.on the costs, they estimate it would be 10,000 euros per person in
:17:54. > :17:58.the year and for more stronger countries. The cost of staying
:17:58. > :18:01.together will be huge politically as well. Actually, in Germany there
:18:01. > :18:05.is going to be probably extreme tension about the idea of bailing
:18:05. > :18:09.out their neighbours. And whatever choice you take right now it will
:18:09. > :18:14.be very nasty. That is why markets are so concerned. Mr Corbett, this
:18:14. > :18:19.makes your man, Mr Van Rompuy, seem pretty irrelevant, doesn't it?
:18:19. > :18:23.job is to get consensus out of the various Governments involved. But
:18:23. > :18:28.interestingly, the first part of your piece just now was a reminder
:18:28. > :18:31.of the problems of having separate currencies that fluctuate against
:18:31. > :18:34.each other, with potential competitive devaluations, that is
:18:34. > :18:38.why most countries in Europe decided that you are better off
:18:38. > :18:43.having a single currency for the single market. And the euro as a
:18:43. > :18:46.whole, let's remember, remains a strong currency, it has gone up
:18:46. > :18:53.against the dollar and the pound, it has got stable, low inflation,
:18:53. > :18:59.it has a balance of payments, and it is overall lower public debt
:18:59. > :19:04.than the US or Japan. We have a problem of debts in a number of
:19:04. > :19:09.countries across the world, three of which are in the eurozone, and
:19:09. > :19:13.are being helped by their partners, with loo loans, not grants. Loans -
:19:13. > :19:17.loans, not grants, to help them take turn the corner. That
:19:17. > :19:21.sovereign debt is not peculiar to the eurozone. If Europe had
:19:21. > :19:24.separate currencies still today, the problems that Italy, Spain and
:19:24. > :19:27.Greece is experiencing right now, they would have dealt with it in
:19:27. > :19:31.the old fashioned way, they would allow their currency to depreciate,
:19:31. > :19:36.and we wouldn't have the kind of problems we are seeing now. In fact,
:19:36. > :19:41.I would go further, fiscal union cannot work. Let's be clear what
:19:41. > :19:44.fiscal union means, it means a single Treasury, single Finance
:19:44. > :19:47.Minister. One Chancellor of the Exchequer for the whole lot? It is
:19:47. > :19:52.hugely undemocratic, it won't work for the same reasons it didn't work
:19:52. > :19:56.in the first place. Is that what it would mean, one central Treasury
:19:56. > :20:01.making rules across the eurozone? Do you really think that is likely,
:20:01. > :20:05.that 17 European countries will hand over their entire Treasury to
:20:05. > :20:09.one Treasury. No country would have more power than an English County
:20:09. > :20:11.Council, that is what it means. They are going in that direction.
:20:11. > :20:14.don't think you will find most countries in Europe signing up for
:20:14. > :20:19.something in the way you have portrayed it. Yes, you need
:20:19. > :20:23.countries to agree to the common rules that they have all agreed to
:20:23. > :20:27.avoid excessive deficits and debts. That does not mean that the central
:20:27. > :20:30.authorities take over all the Treasury responsibilities for the
:20:30. > :20:34.member states, of course not. will talk about central authorities
:20:34. > :20:38.in a moment or two, is the idea viable? We are tiptoeing towards
:20:38. > :20:41.closer union if there isn't a break-up. There is a piece in the
:20:41. > :20:44.Financial Times tomorrow from members of the Dutch Government,
:20:44. > :20:47.suggesting there should be closer scrutiny of each other's budgets
:20:47. > :20:51.and the ability to block them where necessary. That is indicating a
:20:51. > :20:56.trend. The choices are appalling now, if there is not going to be
:20:56. > :21:01.tighter union, it will have to be a break up. Loot depends on how you
:21:01. > :21:03.define the union, which is what - a lot depends on how you define the
:21:03. > :21:07.union. You don't need one Chancellor of the Exchequer doing
:21:07. > :21:11.it all, but you do need to have all the countries involved making the
:21:11. > :21:15.decisions. Do you think Mr Van Rompuy is giving political
:21:15. > :21:19.leadership when all the decisions are being made by Angela Merkel and
:21:19. > :21:22.Nicolas Sarkozy? There is a problem of democratic deficiency here, that
:21:22. > :21:25.is really what the various voters in Germany and elsewhere have been
:21:25. > :21:35.telling Merkel for the first instance, and what is going on in
:21:35. > :21:41.
:21:41. > :21:44.Greece aup to a point in Italy right now. You can visualise a
:21:44. > :21:48.situation happening, otherwise we will end up with the breaking up.
:21:48. > :21:52.There was a fascinating speech, where it was point the out, as
:21:52. > :21:55.President of the European Central Bank, that the level of divergance
:21:55. > :21:59.across the eurozone is less than the divergance across the United
:21:59. > :22:06.States. As we have heard from Brussels, the actual level of debt
:22:06. > :22:11.to GDP is lower than the US, and the divergance is less, if it was
:22:11. > :22:14.run on or a closer basis it would work. That is the key point
:22:14. > :22:18.polictically, on paper fiscal union should work, like it works in
:22:18. > :22:21.Australia and the United States, but in practice it is impossible.
:22:21. > :22:29.You won't get several sovereign national nations with a long
:22:29. > :22:34.history of sovereign Government to agree and pool powers. What is Mr
:22:34. > :22:38.Van Rompuy's strategy? Mr Van Rompuy's strategy is to chair
:22:38. > :22:43.meetings of the heads of 17 democracies, all democrat clo
:22:43. > :22:45.accountable through their own system, and to - democratically
:22:45. > :22:53.accountable through their own system and get agreement from them.
:22:53. > :22:59.It is not an easy task, it takes all 17 to reach agreement to the
:22:59. > :23:03.eurozone. Not easy, that is a fair point. Monetary union of 17
:23:03. > :23:07.different democracies is not easy to run. All of them, however, agree,
:23:07. > :23:11.we need a higher level of convergance than we have had up to
:23:11. > :23:15.now. That doesn't mean handing over your sovereignity entirely to some
:23:15. > :23:19.central authority, it means a greater degree of policy
:23:19. > :23:23.consultation than we have had up to now. What would Europe be like
:23:23. > :23:28.without the euro? In the short-term it would be extremely bloody and
:23:28. > :23:33.brutal, and a very nasty run on the banking system. It would be pretty
:23:33. > :23:36.chaotic, in the medium to long-term, I would imagine we would see the
:23:36. > :23:40.stronger countries coming together. The idea of the eurozone breaking
:23:40. > :23:43.up t wouldn't mean the whole eurozone breaking up, there is an
:23:43. > :23:49.interesting in the stronger countries coming together. It would
:23:49. > :23:53.be extremely messy. What do we mean by convergance, we are stuck in
:23:53. > :23:57.definitions, we don't want the countries to be the same, there is
:23:57. > :24:02.no way, it is good to have differences, you don't want them
:24:02. > :24:06.all to come down statement or recovering statement. You wantm -
:24:06. > :24:10.at the same time, or recovering at the same time. We have seen greater
:24:10. > :24:15.divergance in that case, we have seen Germany being very competitive,
:24:15. > :24:18.and Greece moving into the other direction. The divergence in Europe
:24:18. > :24:22.has meant that prices everywhere have gone up, to equate, if you
:24:22. > :24:28.like, with the ones in central and northern Europe, we have ended up
:24:28. > :24:34.with countries like Greece being so prohibitly expensive to do business
:24:34. > :24:37.The controversial plan to change the abortion laws in this country
:24:37. > :24:41.was defeated in the House of Commons this afternoon. The
:24:41. > :24:47.Conservative backbencher, Nadine Dorries, had hoped to make it
:24:47. > :24:51.impossible for organisations to carry out terminations to provide
:24:51. > :24:55.the counselling beforehand. It was comprehensively defeated, we
:24:55. > :25:00.watched it all. Why did the Dorries amendment fail? The first thing to
:25:00. > :25:03.say is the Government did commit to a review of abortion advice, which
:25:03. > :25:08.depending on your view of Government reviews is either good
:25:08. > :25:12.news or not good news. In terms of the amendment itself, I think one
:25:12. > :25:15.of the big reasons it failed was that Government ministers,
:25:15. > :25:18.Government health ministers, although it was technically a free
:25:18. > :25:24.vote, Government health ministers signalled their opposition to it.
:25:24. > :25:28.The offer of this review was enough to see the co-sponsor of the
:25:28. > :25:34.amendment to the bill, Frank Field, withdraw his support. The
:25:34. > :25:40.Government ministers took the view today, of all days, being the day
:25:40. > :25:45.that the Health and Social Care Bill went through its final Commons
:25:45. > :25:48.stages. The Dorries amendment was part of it. This was the day they
:25:48. > :25:53.supremely wanted to show a modern, forward-facing Conservative Party,
:25:53. > :25:58.and they didn't want to get into this sort of thing. I think the
:25:58. > :26:02.main reason it failed was that abortion, of course, is a supremely
:26:02. > :26:08.polarising issue. For a lot of Conservative MPs, particularly, who
:26:08. > :26:17.may be very thoughtful about these issues, and are sympathetic to what
:26:17. > :26:23.Nadine Dorries was trying to do. It was just not the quite right time.
:26:23. > :26:28.Or the right issue. Defeated by 250 votes yet you claim a tremendous
:26:28. > :26:32.result? It was a tremendous result. Four weeks ago there was never any
:26:32. > :26:34.spotlight shone on the abortion industry or counselling. As a
:26:34. > :26:38.result of the amendment the Government have agreed to get a
:26:38. > :26:42.consultation in January, but also to, as the minister said today, in
:26:42. > :26:46.her winding up speech, to take the spirit of this amendment and
:26:46. > :26:49.introduce it via secondary legislation. But they are not going
:26:49. > :26:54.to stop organisations which provide abortions from counselling, are
:26:54. > :26:57.they? If you is that i, you are saying that the consultation has
:26:57. > :27:00.been predetermined. If the Government agreed with you, they
:27:00. > :27:05.could have whipped their MPs and made them vote for the amendment?
:27:05. > :27:08.don't think it was actually that easy. We do know there are a lot of
:27:08. > :27:12.tactic that is are in play by the Liberal Democrats. Who were almost
:27:12. > :27:15.blackmailing the Government. They had this amendment going through,
:27:15. > :27:21.that the Liberal Democrats would vote the bill down in the Lords.
:27:21. > :27:24.That was a very dangerous situation. And the Government had to whip. The
:27:24. > :27:27.Prime Minister agrees with this amendment. He agrees the objectives
:27:27. > :27:30.of the amendment, but unfortunately the Liberal Democrats made it so
:27:30. > :27:34.difficult that the Government had to whip against it today. But as
:27:34. > :27:38.the minister said, it will be introduced, the spirit of this
:27:38. > :27:41.amendment, if the consultation bears it out, will be introduced
:27:41. > :27:44.using secondary legislation. Liberal Democrats are running this
:27:44. > :27:48.Government? The Liberal Democrats are in coalition with this
:27:48. > :27:53.Government. They are part of this Government. But one might say they
:27:53. > :27:57.possibly have far too much influence on issues like the health
:27:57. > :28:01.bill, immigration, Free Schools and abortion today. What did you make
:28:01. > :28:07.of the Prime Minister's response when you raised that with him today
:28:07. > :28:11.in Prime Minister's Questions. We can have a look at it. Mr Speaker
:28:11. > :28:16.the Liberal Democrats make up 7% of this parliament yet they seem to be
:28:16. > :28:21.influencing our Free School policy, health, many issues, immigration
:28:21. > :28:26.and abortion. Does the Prime Minister think it is about time he
:28:26. > :28:33.told the deputy Prime Minister who is the boss. I know the honourable
:28:33. > :28:40.lady is extremely frustrated about...maybe I should start all
:28:40. > :28:47.over again. I'm going to give up on this one.
:28:47. > :28:51.What did you make of that? Actually the Prime Minister contacted me
:28:51. > :28:56.afterwards and told me that what he wanted to say was that he had
:28:56. > :29:00.supported the amendment, supported the aims and objective, but
:29:00. > :29:05.unfortunately it was a difficult day to do that today. For a variety
:29:05. > :29:10.of reasons. I don't think he intended to respond. I believe him
:29:10. > :29:14.when he said that I believed him. I think he was just caught unawares
:29:14. > :29:18.by what happened with the party opposite, and the response.
:29:18. > :29:23.whole of the House of Commons, including plenty of people on your
:29:23. > :29:27.benches, seemed to find it hysterically funny when he talked
:29:27. > :29:36.about you being very frustrated, that tells you something about the
:29:36. > :29:38.atmosphere of the House of Commons and its general juvinillity?
:29:38. > :29:42.knows how cross I am at how much influence the Liberal Democrats
:29:42. > :29:46.have had, not just on this policy, but this particular one, that I
:29:46. > :29:50.have worked for six years on. I'm very angry because I have discussed
:29:50. > :29:54.this with the Prime Minister, I know he agrees with it. I know he's
:29:54. > :29:59.pro-choice, but he's sensitive to these issues. He don't like the
:29:59. > :30:02.idea that abuse may take place in the system. Did anyone apologise
:30:02. > :30:06.for the way the House of Commons behaved? No, but the Prime Minister
:30:06. > :30:11.apologised to me personally. didn't think it was another of
:30:11. > :30:14.those "calm down, dear" moments? I don't. Because they are not
:30:14. > :30:17.planned, he doesn't stand up, the Prime Minister had no idea I was
:30:17. > :30:22.going to ask him that question. If he did know I was going to ask him
:30:22. > :30:25.that question, and responded like that. Then one would think
:30:25. > :30:30.something was Machiavellian in his response, he had no idea I was
:30:30. > :30:34.going to be called. In four days time it will be the
:30:34. > :30:38.tenth anniversary of the terrorist attack, which reshaped our world.
:30:38. > :30:43.The decade since has been characterised by war, fear and
:30:43. > :30:47.suspicion, we have been repeatedly told that what is at issue isn't
:30:47. > :30:51.religion, yet the chasam between Islam and the west still seems vast,
:30:51. > :30:55.in a recent poll 47% of Americans said the values of Islam were
:30:55. > :31:00.inxatable with the values of America don incompatible with the
:31:00. > :31:09.values of America. Is it possible that a popular culture could help
:31:09. > :31:13.bridge the divide. In the US you don't have to look
:31:13. > :31:20.too hard to find negative images of Muslims. This attack on the United
:31:20. > :31:30.States will also be a revenge attack for all mu Jihad Dean.
:31:30. > :31:31.
:31:31. > :31:35.For some, they are the enemy within. The ultimate, perhaps, was the
:31:35. > :31:40.vitriolic campaign against the so- called Ground Zero mosque.
:31:40. > :31:45.mosque, no mosque. A horrified liberal America decided a cultural
:31:45. > :31:51.counter-attack was in order. Maybe we need a Muslim version of
:31:51. > :31:54.the Cosby show. I know that sounds crazy, but The Cosby Show did so
:31:54. > :32:00.much to change attitudes about African-Americans in this country.
:32:00. > :32:04.I think sometimes people are afraid of things they don't understand.
:32:04. > :32:08.A seething hatred is the way US broadcaster, Katie Couric,
:32:08. > :32:12.described the way some Americans feel about Muslims. Her suggestion
:32:12. > :32:17.of using a mainstream sitcom to counter prejudice has been both
:32:17. > :32:27.praised and ridiculed. But that show already exists, just a few
:32:27. > :32:29.
:32:29. > :32:37.Little Mosque On The Prairie is about Muslims and Christians,
:32:37. > :32:47.attempting to live in harmony in the fictional town of Mercy.
:32:47. > :32:49.
:32:49. > :32:53.My point is this, wine gums, rie bread, liquorice, western traps to
:32:53. > :32:58.draw Muslims into drinking alcohol. His sermons drive me to drink
:32:58. > :33:03.alcohol. Patience daughter, it is his last sermon. It has been a huge
:33:03. > :33:07.success in Canada. Give me a hug. Currently recording the sixth
:33:07. > :33:13.series, sold to more than 80 countries worldwide, though not the
:33:13. > :33:18.US or the UK. The series centres on the arrival
:33:18. > :33:23.to the prairie of a liberal, Canadian-born Imam. We don't go out
:33:23. > :33:30.to be an issue-based show, we are a comedy, like The Cosby Show was, we
:33:30. > :33:34.are not a political comedy, we are a comedy with Islam as a backdrop,
:33:34. > :33:37.because some of the characters happen to be Muslim. That is what
:33:37. > :33:41.makes everyone feel more assimilated from both points of
:33:41. > :33:46.view, whether Muslim or non-Muslim. We had a fan of the show who says I
:33:46. > :33:50.love what you do on Little Mosque, that is pretty high praise coming
:33:50. > :33:56.from a Jew. That is what the woman said.
:33:56. > :34:00.Did you see what I just saw. eyes, those eyes. Starting to look
:34:00. > :34:05.like the third world around here. Even the executive who is made
:34:05. > :34:09.Little Mosque were worried, when Little Mosque went on air, how
:34:09. > :34:14.would the community react. Some orthodox Muslims said it was wrong
:34:14. > :34:20.and we shouldn't do this. There wasn't a huge rallying cry to kill
:34:20. > :34:24.me or burn my house. We are on set in Toronto and getting ready for
:34:24. > :34:28.the big opening scene from season six, two of the main characters are
:34:28. > :34:35.arriving back from honeymoon, and of course they are expecting some
:34:35. > :34:42.trouble with airport security. are The comedy has been described
:34:42. > :34:48.as more Vicar of Dibly than Four Lions. There is a healthy helping
:34:48. > :34:56.of suicide bomber jokes. Here is the deal, my mom and dad split up,
:34:56. > :35:04.and my dad decided to stay in Lebanon, he's Lebanese but not a
:35:04. > :35:11.suicide bomber. Look, not every Muslim is a terrorist, OK.
:35:12. > :35:17.It's not been an entirely smooth ride, though. Little Mosque manage
:35:17. > :35:22.to cause a slight diplomatic spat between the US and Canada. Tonight
:35:22. > :35:27.the tables are some what turned, newly released cables contain
:35:27. > :35:33.diplomatic exchanges about CBC television. So this cable was from
:35:33. > :35:38.the US Embassy in Ottawa to Washington and accused the
:35:38. > :35:43.programme of insidious, populist sterotyping of Americans in Canada.
:35:43. > :35:53.Shows like Little Mosque On The Prairie set off alarms at the
:35:53. > :35:55.
:35:55. > :35:58.embassy, showing a US man abusing Canadians. They would spend their
:35:58. > :36:03.time watching Little Mosque On The Prairie, I would have thought they
:36:03. > :36:08.had other things to do. It was all much to the despair of American
:36:08. > :36:16.Canadian executive producer, Mary Darley. I sat down immediately and
:36:16. > :36:20.drafted a letter to Barack Obama, and Hillary Clinton, and had my
:36:20. > :36:24.assistant pull together the past season. I found this letter, and
:36:24. > :36:28.Hillary Clinton got it when she said, thank you for everything you
:36:28. > :36:33.are doing to foster cross cultural unity and understanding through
:36:33. > :36:36.comedy. Do you worry about being preachy, it is supposed to be
:36:36. > :36:39.funny? Completely, being preachy is something we have watched all the
:36:40. > :36:46.way through. The rights for the programme were acquired by Fox in
:36:46. > :36:49.the US, but it was never remade. Zarqa Nawaz says she has written
:36:49. > :36:53.and pitched her version of the Muslim Cosby show four times
:36:53. > :36:57.already in the states. Four times it has failed to make it to pilot.
:36:57. > :37:00.That could mean the shows aren't funny enough, she is already
:37:00. > :37:05.feeling the heat that goes with this territory. Immediately you see
:37:05. > :37:10.your name on a blog and it is associated with those typical words
:37:10. > :37:16.like Jihadist, or pro-Sharia. You don't want a network to suddenly
:37:16. > :37:22.say, oh my God, is it really true, is she seven stage ways from Osama
:37:22. > :37:27.Bin Laden. It does worry me, for sure. Does the US need this. The
:37:27. > :37:30.Cosby Show ran for eight sow sons from 1984, and credited with
:37:30. > :37:36.changing attitudes to African- Americans. The Daily Show thinks
:37:36. > :37:43.the idea of Muslim version is hilarious. Next time, a special
:37:43. > :37:49.visit from the Prophet Mohammed. no, no.
:37:49. > :37:54.Cut, cut, cut. No, no. While the states continues to debate the
:37:54. > :38:01.reality, inroads are being made into possibly the most American of
:38:01. > :38:05.pop culture. The 99 comics features a team of Islam-inspired superhero,
:38:05. > :38:09.most recently involved in a crossover with the Justice League
:38:09. > :38:14.of America, fighting alongside superman and Batman. President
:38:14. > :38:21.Obama has praised the comics for bridge agricultural divide. The
:38:22. > :38:27.animated version of The 99 is in production. We as American Muslims
:38:27. > :38:31.were completely absent from pop culture. Unfortunately after 9/11
:38:31. > :38:36.people only looked as Muslims as immigrants and immigrants as
:38:36. > :38:42.Muslims. To get our voice out there we needed to be comedians, actors,
:38:42. > :38:45.writers, singers, in every sphere, basically. There is an argument
:38:45. > :38:51.that Muslims will never be completely normalised in the west,
:38:51. > :38:58.until a woman in a hijab is selling us washing up liquid, maybe that
:38:58. > :39:02.will be the real superhuman feat. With us now is Caryn Mandabach, the
:39:03. > :39:10.US TV producer behind The Cosby Show, among others, and Naif Al
:39:10. > :39:13.Mutawa, the creator The 99, the Islam-inspired comic book featured
:39:13. > :39:17.in the film in New York. Will it air in the states as far as you
:39:17. > :39:24.know? As far as I know, it has been bought and paid for, we are waiting
:39:24. > :39:31.for a date. What will be the effect, do you imagine? It's good content,
:39:31. > :39:35.it is top teir, it is written by the writers behind Ben 10, Batman
:39:35. > :39:39.and superman. I think kids will love it, and show the values we
:39:39. > :39:42.share as human beings are more than divides us. You don't feel you are
:39:42. > :39:46.puting it out into a hostile environment? I didn't feel that
:39:46. > :39:50.when I started, but I'm getting tinges of it now. It hasn't been
:39:50. > :40:00.put in the schedules yet? No it wasn't. It was bought over a year
:40:00. > :40:03.
:40:03. > :40:08.ago. How do you explain the delay? It is best for the broadcaster to
:40:08. > :40:12.explain. That when President Obama talked about The 99, and it brought
:40:12. > :40:17.to us the people's attention, and the people who talked about the
:40:17. > :40:21.Norwegian killer, they came after us, and it led to jitters in the
:40:21. > :40:25.broadcaster, the date kept getting shifted. The thing is the
:40:25. > :40:27.broadcaster is also in the same situation we are in, it is a
:40:27. > :40:30.hostile political environment in the US. They are doing the best
:40:30. > :40:35.they can for their business. Sometimes it is not exactly what is
:40:35. > :40:38.best for us. Caryn Mandabach, how important, or
:40:38. > :40:43.how powerful is the capacity of shows on television to change
:40:43. > :40:48.people's attitudes? It is huge when it works. But I think now network
:40:48. > :40:57.shares are down significantly. The Cosby Show premiered to a 28 rating,
:40:57. > :41:02.I don't know what the share was, which meant over 31 million people
:41:02. > :41:07.were premiering, we were up against Magnum PI, we thought we would come
:41:07. > :41:11.in second, now a highly rated show is six million people. What do you
:41:11. > :41:18.put down to the success of it? was huge, it showed we had more in
:41:18. > :41:26.common than differences. Human beings being human beings, whatever
:41:26. > :41:30.culture and language they speak and long to, and God, our centres are
:41:31. > :41:33.the same? He was a man in search of the perfect nap. Why hasn't Little
:41:33. > :41:38.Mosque On The Prairie gone to the states? There is no preawareness,
:41:38. > :41:45.you have to have a marketable item, whether an actor, or a comic book,
:41:45. > :41:50.or some sort of thing to hang it on. It could be that it is just not
:41:50. > :41:55.very funny? It could be a great comic who know 40 million people
:41:55. > :41:59.himself, Cosby had played to so many audiences for so many years,
:41:59. > :42:02.he had a gigantic peer awareness and it was brilliant. Do you think
:42:02. > :42:05.it is the function of the media to change human behaviour?
:42:06. > :42:13.directly, but the function to impact culture, and in America to
:42:13. > :42:18.impact culture in such a way that you can sell soap. That's all?
:42:18. > :42:22.What's the function of The 99? know, as a psychologist and a
:42:22. > :42:25.father, I believe if you tell your children enough time they are
:42:25. > :42:27.stupid, they will start believing they are stupid. If you tell them
:42:28. > :42:31.enough times they are a terrorist, they will start believing that. I
:42:31. > :42:35.think the media has a responsibility to reflect reality,
:42:35. > :42:41.but at the same time it can create alternative realities. One of the
:42:41. > :42:45.lessons I learned from The Cosby Show, I implemented it in the comic,
:42:45. > :42:52.we don't discuss religions, they are from 99 different countries,
:42:52. > :42:55.and they learn to appreciate each other's powers, that is how
:42:55. > :43:02.multiculturalism and diversity comes out, it is not done directly.
:43:03. > :43:07.You almost sound like a missionary? The name is Mutawa, now the title.
:43:07. > :43:12.For me, I grew up, my parents made the mistake of their lifetime, I
:43:12. > :43:17.was eight years old, my Arab Muslim parents accidentally sent me to a
:43:17. > :43:21.Jewish summer camp in New Hampshire, I ended up going there for years. I
:43:21. > :43:27.didn't figure out until year seven and didn't tell anybody, now my own
:43:27. > :43:32.kids go there. I learned very early on, I grew up in Kuwait and went to
:43:32. > :43:36.summer camp in New Hampshire, and had to navigate the line closely.
:43:36. > :43:40.In the end saw more of the same than differences. I wanted to be
:43:41. > :43:46.able to communicate. Growing up post 9/11, my kids, seeing the kids
:43:46. > :43:50.they see on TV, and who represents Muslims, it is pretty scary. That
:43:50. > :43:54.stuff feeds back negatively. I wanted to make a difference and
:43:54. > :43:59.change that, this is the method I chose. What do you make of that?
:43:59. > :44:03.Great, I hope he's a great success. For large commercial success like
:44:03. > :44:07.The Cosby Show to make an impact, you have to have a huge amount of
:44:08. > :44:12.buy-in, in advance, people have to know something about, it is just
:44:12. > :44:17.really difficult, it is a tough market. Like I said, the difference
:44:17. > :44:21.between premiering at a six rating and a 32 rating tells the tale now.
:44:21. > :44:26.You can't get a whole bunch of eyeballs any more in one place.
:44:26. > :44:32.television can't have the power it used to have? It doesn't. Given
:44:32. > :44:36.fewer people watch it? There is a lot of reasons, that is one of them.
:44:36. > :44:42.The others? Broadcast network now is all corporatised. Here you are
:44:42. > :44:45.used to a human-scaled business, there it is 100% corporatised, it
:44:45. > :44:50.is self-dealt, they buy from themselves. They are only really
:44:50. > :44:55.interested in their 19% perquarter, they have a much different God in
:44:55. > :44:59.America than here, you answer to something different here. That's
:44:59. > :45:09.what he's up against now. Do you still have this great belief in
:45:09. > :45:13.television in New York? Are you asking me? Yes? I mean, you know, I
:45:13. > :45:18.do believe that television will be important for us. I do plof that we
:45:18. > :45:21.have incredible content. Cartoon Network acquired it for Asia. It
:45:21. > :45:24.will be playing all over the world, and some parts of Europe, except
:45:24. > :45:29.the US, even though it was the first market that boigt it. I think
:45:29. > :45:38.TV is a way. You need to get into licensing and games, which
:45:38. > :45:41.hopefully it down the pipe for us. The film is launching at the New
:45:41. > :45:45.York Film Festival, further proof that what we have is something that
:45:45. > :45:49.is worth its salt. Good luck, thanks.
:45:49. > :45:53.Tomorrow morning's front pages now. The Financial Times has news that
:45:53. > :46:03.the criminal, there is going to be a criminal element to the American
:46:03. > :46:15.
:46:15. > :46:18.That's the long and short of it tonight, tomorrow you have the
:46:18. > :46:28.pleasure of Gavin's company, it is not an opportunity that comes along
:46:28. > :46:50.
:46:50. > :46:54.every day, make the most of it. Goodnight.
:46:54. > :46:58.The wind will die down a little bit tonight. It won't be as strong on
:46:58. > :47:01.Thursday, looking a cloudy day. Most places seeing outbreaks of
:47:01. > :47:05.rain, some sunshine here and there across parts of eastern Scotland,
:47:05. > :47:09.for example. And also to the east of the Pennines. To the west of the
:47:09. > :47:16.opinion nines, grey day with outbreaks of rain. Dull and down
:47:16. > :47:22.through the Midlands, East Anglia and the south-east. That breeze
:47:22. > :47:26.will bring an awful lot of cloud, sitting over moors and the south
:47:26. > :47:30.west England, a glum day here, and also across Wales, a lot of cloud,
:47:30. > :47:33.outbreaks of rain, nothing too heavy, pepping up later in the day.
:47:33. > :47:38.For Northern Ireland it is a similar picture, there may be a
:47:38. > :47:42.hint of brightersness, but overall a gloomy day. Sunny spells in
:47:42. > :47:45.Scotland but a whole host of showers packing in from the west.
:47:45. > :47:50.Largely dry in the east of Scotland with some spells of sunshine. As we
:47:50. > :47:53.head into Friday, the winds will pick up again, introducing warmer
:47:53. > :47:58.air. With sunshine on Friday it could feel warm. Scotland there
:47:58. > :48:04.will be outbreaks of rain. Dryer and brighter across England and
:48:04. > :48:08.Wales. Temperatures on Friday could reach 22 or 23 Celsius. Grey across