:00:08. > :00:13.How Conservative is the Conservative-led coalition, on
:00:13. > :00:16.everything from Europe to banking reforms, Free Schools to abortion
:00:16. > :00:20.and the NHS, is David Cameron paying too much attention to the
:00:20. > :00:23.Liberal Democrats and not enough to the Tories. We debate with a
:00:23. > :00:26.Conservative MP who is worried he might be, and Nick Clegg's Chief-
:00:26. > :00:29.of-Staff. Ten years after the attacks that
:00:29. > :00:34.changed America forever, General Colin Powell tells Newsnight where
:00:34. > :00:38.things went wrong. The Taliban turned out to be much more
:00:38. > :00:43.resilient and Al-Qaeda much more persistent in its presence than
:00:43. > :00:47.anyone anticipated back then. tough tactics by the police and the
:00:47. > :00:51.FBI in the wake of 9/11 led to things going sometimes too far.
:00:51. > :01:01.They went too far, it was entrapment, the Government set it
:01:01. > :01:03.
:01:03. > :01:09.up. The story of a teenager who married Peter Tobin, how she
:01:09. > :01:13.escaped from being his first victim. When I had his son, I changed from
:01:13. > :01:21.being a potential victim to a possession. That is why I'm still
:01:21. > :01:24.alive, I think. Hello, good evening. One Conservative MP made a point of
:01:24. > :01:28.asking David Cameron if he would pay as much attention to his own
:01:28. > :01:32.party on Europe, as he has to the Liberal Democrats on other policies.
:01:32. > :01:37.Another Tory on Newsnight last night, accused the Liberal
:01:37. > :01:39.Democrats of blackmailing David Cameron on abortion. Nick Clegg has
:01:39. > :01:42.trumpetted how he believes the Liberal Democrats have changed Tory
:01:42. > :01:45.policy. What is the balance of power in the coalition, have the
:01:45. > :01:51.Liberal Democrats got more influence than they deserve, and
:01:51. > :01:55.how damaging to relations could that be. We will debate in a moment.
:01:55. > :02:02.For some Conservative MPs their party hasn't really done what it
:02:02. > :02:11.said on the tin. Tory blue, polluted and diluted by an alien
:02:11. > :02:14.orange. Their MPs can disagree on substantial issues. Free Schools or
:02:14. > :02:19.local authority schools? Local authority schools. Free Schools, I
:02:19. > :02:27.think, are excellent. As well as the more trivial. Salad or chips?
:02:28. > :02:31.You see I'm on a health binge at the moment, so salad. Chips. As one
:02:31. > :02:36.Conservative proved in the Commons yesterday, frustration,
:02:36. > :02:42.particularly on the right of the party, is coming to the surface.
:02:42. > :02:46.Speaker, the Liberal Democrats make up 7% of this parliament, and yet
:02:46. > :02:49.they seem to be influencing our Free School policy, health, many
:02:49. > :02:53.issues, immigration and abortion. Does the Prime Minister think it is
:02:53. > :02:57.about time he told the deputy Prime Minister who is the boss? I think
:02:57. > :03:02.nobody ever thought David Cameron would do lots of right-wing things
:03:02. > :03:06.in as a Prime Minister in a coalition. The frustration is the
:03:06. > :03:09.Liberal Democrats are having a lot more impact on Tory policy than
:03:09. > :03:14.most Tory MPs want to accept. He has a choice, he either talks to
:03:15. > :03:22.the right-wing, which he isn't doing, and placates them, or some
:03:22. > :03:25.say there will be a big explosion. There are plenty of areas of
:03:25. > :03:28.coalition tension, for instance, taxes for the rich, the
:03:28. > :03:31.Conservatives want to get rid of the 50p rate, the Liberal Democrats
:03:31. > :03:37.say only if you replace it with something as harsh. There will
:03:37. > :03:39.always be disagreement on Europe, the Conservatives are far more
:03:39. > :03:43.Euro-sceptical than the Euro- enthusiasts the Liberal Democrats.
:03:43. > :03:47.On health reform, the bill is through the Commons, although the
:03:47. > :03:52.Lords now promises to be a trickier proposition. There is conflict
:03:52. > :03:54.still on going on elected police commissioners, and whether to
:03:54. > :03:58.replace the European Convention on Human Rights, with a British Bill
:03:58. > :04:03.of Rights. One thing that gets Conservative
:04:03. > :04:07.MPs really hacked off, is when the Liberal Democrats, in their view,
:04:07. > :04:14.try to present themselves as the conscience of the coalition,
:04:14. > :04:18.preventing those wicked Tories from running riot. For start, they want
:04:18. > :04:21.their leader, David Cameron, to get a bit more robust in defending
:04:21. > :04:23.their honour. In Government the Liberal Democrats have been able to
:04:24. > :04:28.change things and influence Government policy, which means that
:04:28. > :04:30.the policy that is now being implemented, for example, in the
:04:30. > :04:34.NHS, is not what would have happened if the Conservatives had
:04:34. > :04:38.been in Government on their own. There is a very distinctive Liberal
:04:38. > :04:42.Democrat stamp on that policy. perhaps, for their own interests,
:04:42. > :04:46.have been portraying themselves in that light. But then the job is for
:04:46. > :04:51.the Conservative Party to stick up for its interests, and say on some
:04:51. > :04:55.of these things the Conservative Party has led the way in
:04:56. > :04:59.readdressing, or changing the Government's position. Something
:04:59. > :05:05.else that gets Conservative MPs fuming, is when their leader, David
:05:05. > :05:13.Cameron, describes the coalition, not as a regretable compromise, but,
:05:13. > :05:17.as actually the most perfect synthesis of ideas possible, and
:05:17. > :05:22.delivering far better policies than mere Conservatives could achieve on
:05:22. > :05:25.their own. Next week's commission report, the 50p tax, the CCTV,
:05:25. > :05:29.dealing with the riots, every day you are seeing the Tory Party and
:05:29. > :05:32.Number Ten at odds on a whole range of really, really important
:05:32. > :05:35.political issues. At some stage Number Ten has come to a view,
:05:35. > :05:41.after the next election, does he want the coalition to continue, or
:05:41. > :05:44.does he want to be the Prime Minister leading a right-wing Tory
:05:44. > :05:47.Government. At the moment I think it is probably with the former.
:05:47. > :05:50.Selected police commissioners was a policy the Conservatives brought to
:05:50. > :05:54.the coalition, and many Liberal Democrats don't much like it. The
:05:54. > :05:58.elections for these posts, in England and Wales, were due to be
:05:58. > :06:08.run at the same time as the local elections next May. They have now
:06:08. > :06:12.been delayed until next November. At a cost of �25 million. Today the
:06:12. > :06:17.Home Secretary was asked was this a result of the Liberal Democrats
:06:17. > :06:21.exercising their muscles. Is this not a decision that has been taken
:06:21. > :06:25.because Mr Clegg and the Liberal Democrats, have decided to put
:06:25. > :06:30.party issues above the high principles that you and the Prime
:06:30. > :06:35.Minister feel are important, in terms of democratic accountability?
:06:35. > :06:40.Not surprisingly the Home Secretary wasn't inclined to agree. The big
:06:40. > :06:48.coalition split is not actually between the parties it is between
:06:48. > :06:52.the benches, front and back. Broadly speaking, those with access
:06:52. > :06:56.to minister chauffeur, are far happier than those who have to get
:06:56. > :07:02.the bus. Nobody may have actually chosen this particular political
:07:02. > :07:09.shade, but trying to unmix its constituent colours may prove both
:07:09. > :07:18.messy and difficult. I'm joined by Norman Lamb, Liberal
:07:18. > :07:22.Democrat MP, Chief-of-Staff to Nick Clegg, and the Conservative MP.
:07:22. > :07:29.You were the first one who raised this, what are you worried about
:07:29. > :07:36.here? I have a particular worry on Europe, and for the Conservative
:07:36. > :07:42.Party, Europe is an exstrengths issue. And we - extension issue. We
:07:42. > :07:46.are in enormous change at the moment, the force of it is seizing
:07:46. > :07:50.to becoming the European Union, and coming to be the eurozone, as they
:07:50. > :07:55.move to having their own central finance and integrate more as the
:07:55. > :08:00.political force in Europe, we have an opportunity to bring powers back
:08:00. > :08:03.from Europe, and to have a relationship with which the
:08:03. > :08:06.Conservative Party and the country would be much more comfortable.
:08:06. > :08:12.don't think David Cameron gets that? I think David Cameron
:08:12. > :08:16.understands that, and I think we have an extraordinary, and really
:08:16. > :08:20.historic opportunity coming up. do you suggest he's not listening
:08:20. > :08:23.to you on that? What I hope will happen is we will take that
:08:23. > :08:27.opportunity to bring powers back from the EU and choose a
:08:27. > :08:30.relationship, where we, to a much greater extent, govern ourselves.
:08:30. > :08:34.In the way that Switzerland or norway have that free trading
:08:34. > :08:38.relationship with the EU, but make their own decisions. We are
:08:38. > :08:41.familiar with those arguments, but it is wait in which you phrased it,
:08:41. > :08:45.which the Prime Minister himself thought was quite ingenious, are
:08:45. > :08:50.you worried that he is making too many concessions to the Liberal
:08:50. > :08:56.Democrats? I think my major one, I have a worry on Europe, I also have
:08:56. > :09:02.a worry on the way the coalition is working. I think it is reempowering
:09:02. > :09:06.the Mandarins, it has reempowered Whitehall, there are many issues
:09:06. > :09:10.where I agree with the Liberal Democrats, and I want to see a
:09:10. > :09:16.radical decentralisation of power, and I believe in localism, and
:09:16. > :09:20.where the Whitehall Mandarins are unprepared to let go of power.
:09:20. > :09:23.don't suppose in your entire political life, people ever said
:09:23. > :09:27.Liberal Democrats are too powerful, shock, that is what the grumbling
:09:27. > :09:32.is among some Conservative backbenchers? It is a sue Neil
:09:32. > :09:38.Kinnock experience. Is it true - is a unique experience. Some of our
:09:38. > :09:43.viewers are saying that it suits both parties to pretend it is going
:09:43. > :09:48.on, it suits the Conservatives to pretend they are listening and it
:09:48. > :09:52.suits you to pretend you are tough. We do have influence, we have
:09:52. > :09:55.become more assertive as everyone has got used to the way in which
:09:55. > :10:00.coalitions can work. And we will fight for the things that we
:10:00. > :10:03.believe in. We won't overplay our hand, but we want fairer taxes. We
:10:03. > :10:08.will focus, not on cutting taxes for the wealthy, but on cutting tax
:10:08. > :10:11.for people on low and middle incomes. We will get the tax
:10:11. > :10:14.thresholds up to �10,000 by the end of the parliament. That is
:10:14. > :10:17.something the Liberal Democrats will deliver in Government. Do you
:10:17. > :10:21.see the point that was implicit in some of the report there, that if
:10:21. > :10:24.it work, the Conservatives will get the credit because they are
:10:24. > :10:28.listening and listening to you, you won't? There is a risk, of course,
:10:28. > :10:32.this is the first time we have done coalition since the Second World
:10:32. > :10:35.War in this country. We're all learning. But I think what we have
:10:35. > :10:38.to do, is we have to be responsible in Government, people want stable
:10:38. > :10:43.Government, and actually this coalition, at a very, very
:10:43. > :10:46.difficult time for this country, has provided stability. We will
:10:46. > :10:49.work constructively, where there are disagreements we will debate.
:10:49. > :10:55.The relationships are much more functional, than a single party
:10:55. > :11:00.Government, as has come out from Emmanuel Darley's memoir, the
:11:00. > :11:06.relationship - Alastair Darling's memoirs. The relationship at the
:11:06. > :11:09.heart was much more professional, it has played out more in public
:11:09. > :11:12.recently, but we will fight for that. How far do you think the
:11:12. > :11:16.Prime Minister is closer to Nick Clegg in some of these policies
:11:16. > :11:21.than to you? I think the Prime Minister and Nick Clegg are close.
:11:21. > :11:27.I think the problem with the coalition is it works at the top,
:11:27. > :11:32.but the quad and Nick Clegg can't take every decision. The quad, to
:11:32. > :11:35.explain, Clegg, Cameron, Alexeneder and Osborne. There, it is
:11:35. > :11:39.interesting, you have two Liberal Democrats, two Tories, the top
:11:39. > :11:45.people, that is 50% influence for the Liberal Democrats and they have
:11:45. > :11:49.9% influence in parliament. But six million voters and 23% of the vote
:11:49. > :11:54.of the last election. The share of MPs in parliament is a bit
:11:54. > :12:00.misleading. The point I wanted to make, at that level it works well.
:12:00. > :12:03.Below that the messages don't feed up in a bottom-up way. When the
:12:03. > :12:09.Government makes mistakes over things it can't push through, over
:12:09. > :12:13.forest, it take as long time to work out. And over health that was
:12:13. > :12:19.a big issue, a lot of Conservatives had a lot of concerns about. That
:12:19. > :12:24.we went through the whole of the committee and only decided to go it
:12:24. > :12:28.all again. That is a good point, both parties have to work harder at
:12:28. > :12:32.engaging backbenchers, and making sure they feel engaged in the
:12:32. > :12:34.process of Government. In that sense, how many of your fellow
:12:34. > :12:37.backbenchers share those kind of concerns? Let me give you an
:12:37. > :12:41.example, we were talking about police commissioners, I was
:12:41. > :12:45.involved several years ago in developing our policy of a directly
:12:45. > :12:49.elected individual. The Liberal Democrats called for directly
:12:49. > :12:53.elected police authorities. We have compromised on a directly elected
:12:53. > :12:57.individual with panel of local councillors to provide oversight.
:12:57. > :13:02.But, unfortunately, the substantive power, with regards to the budget
:13:02. > :13:10.setting, isn't exercised by either of those bodies, the decision
:13:10. > :13:14.whether to call a referendum. There is a fudge to a degree, that may up
:13:14. > :13:18.in - end up in the courts. The precept is not held by the panel,
:13:18. > :13:22.as I thought the Liberal Democrats would want, but with the Secretary
:13:22. > :13:29.of State. When I tried to put that issue I was told I couldn't because
:13:29. > :13:34.the Liberal Democrats wouldn't wear it. I put forward an amendment, and
:13:34. > :13:37.I get Liberal Democrats' support for that, who would much prefer the
:13:37. > :13:40.panel overseeing the budget setting rather than referring up to the
:13:40. > :13:44.Secretary of State. That is still in the bill, because the mand drins
:13:44. > :13:47.are having what they want. They are keeping power in the Home Office
:13:47. > :13:51.and the Whitehall, what we would like is to see the power pushed
:13:51. > :13:56.down to the lowest possible level. Because of the structure of the
:13:56. > :13:59.coalition. You have to be careful how you play this, in the end you
:13:59. > :14:02.don't want, the Prime Minister could call a general election at
:14:02. > :14:06.any time, and we haven't fixed parliaments yet, we you have to be
:14:06. > :14:08.careful? We have to have play our hand, and we can't overplay it. If
:14:08. > :14:13.you negotiate properly in Government, and you reach agreement,
:14:13. > :14:17.and then you move on. And I think the great thing about the coalition
:14:17. > :14:22.agreement, actually, is it provides an accountability for both parties.
:14:22. > :14:25.I think, you know, this is a real challenge to the old tribal
:14:26. > :14:28.politics we have been used to in this country. The idea you can work
:14:28. > :14:32.together with people from a different political tradition is a
:14:32. > :14:34.good thing. I think actually the public will find they like the
:14:34. > :14:37.results of it. Thank you very much.
:14:37. > :14:42.Now, tomorrow night Newsnight will have a specially extended edition,
:14:43. > :14:48.live from New York, as we approach the 10th anniversary of the
:14:48. > :14:52.September 11th attacks. Kirsty is there now. There is an atmosphere
:14:52. > :14:56.of reflection here in New York and indeed in the wider America, as we
:14:56. > :15:00.approach this weekend. America's reaction after the attacks still
:15:00. > :15:02.resonating around the world. One of the key players in the Bush
:15:02. > :15:06.administration, who helped define America's response, and sold the
:15:06. > :15:09.war in Iraq to the UN, is Colin Powell, Secretary of State at the
:15:09. > :15:14.time of the attacks. Today, in Washington, he spoke to our
:15:14. > :15:20.diplomatic editor, Mark Urban, about the impact of 9/11, saying
:15:21. > :15:25.the attacks were almost on a par with World War II, and Pearl Harbor.
:15:25. > :15:30.Clearly there was an initially a great outpouring of support from
:15:30. > :15:34.global organisations, world leaders, but I think as time went on, some
:15:34. > :15:38.people began to snipe from the margins, perhaps bs, sometimes over
:15:38. > :15:45.the choice of lan - perhaps, sometimes over the choice of
:15:45. > :15:51.language. The President quickly coined the "war on terror" phrase,
:15:52. > :15:56.and at one sage the word "crusade" being used. To what extent, you
:15:56. > :16:00.doing the international diplomacy, that the language was a hindrance
:16:00. > :16:04.to you? The President had many audiences to deal with. The
:16:04. > :16:08.international audience, principally my responsibility, but he had an
:16:08. > :16:11.outraged population. He had 300 million Americans, who saw what
:16:11. > :16:15.happened to thousands of their fellow citizen and we didn't know
:16:15. > :16:21.what else might be coming. So we had to make sure there was not
:16:21. > :16:25.another attack. But I think the President's choice of words were
:16:25. > :16:31.necessary for that moment. To tell the American people that this is an
:16:31. > :16:36.attack, that almost rises to the level of World War II and Pearl
:16:36. > :16:41.Harbor. To mobilise them, to go after this enemy, as if it was a
:16:41. > :16:45.war like World War II. I don't object to that language, the word
:16:45. > :16:48."crusade" was used once, then we realised let's not do that one
:16:48. > :16:56.again, it creates the wrong sort of opinion in that part of the world.
:16:56. > :17:01.It was a wrong choice of words, it was not used again. Pretty soon the
:17:01. > :17:06.US take military action in Afghanistan and against the Taliban
:17:06. > :17:11.regime. It was a surgical type thing, with a few number of people
:17:11. > :17:15.on the ground, but today we see 100,000 US troops still there.
:17:15. > :17:18.Would you have conceived back then we would be here ten years later
:17:18. > :17:25.with a large number of American troops committed? I wouldn't have
:17:25. > :17:29.conceived is back in the fall of 2001, when we had this exciting
:17:29. > :17:34.faction of very sophisticated US technology and special forces,
:17:34. > :17:39.married up with people riding horses. It was the 10th century,
:17:39. > :17:42.and the 21st century, and it worked. But the Taliban turned out to be
:17:42. > :17:45.much more resilient and Al-Qaeda much more persistent in its
:17:45. > :17:49.presence than anyone anticipated back then.
:17:49. > :17:53.The invasion of Iraq was clearly a much more controversial episode,
:17:53. > :17:59.certainly in Europe. Do you, though, still believe that the invasion and
:18:00. > :18:02.the war was justified in the broader sense. I think we can't
:18:02. > :18:05.make a determination of, that history will make that
:18:05. > :18:09.determination. I'm not ducking the question. Think of it this way, a
:18:09. > :18:14.terrible dictator is gone, more than that, a terrible dictatorial
:18:14. > :18:18.regime is gone, Saddam Hussein is no more. Whatever concerns we may
:18:18. > :18:21.have had about weapons of mass destruction, from a regime that had
:18:21. > :18:25.them in the past and used them in the past, and there was no
:18:25. > :18:33.guarantee they would not make them in the future or use them in future
:18:33. > :18:37.to get out of sanctions, we don't have to worry about that ever again.
:18:37. > :18:45.What we worry about now is will the Iraqis put together a Government
:18:45. > :18:49.that is responsive tuelt people in Iraq, that takes - takes into
:18:49. > :18:53.account the differences in rack, that is not influenced by outside
:18:53. > :18:57.powers, although they have relations with outside power, they
:18:57. > :19:01.will be free. And will it serve the needs of its people. That is what
:19:01. > :19:08.we are waiting to see. The potential is there for that to
:19:08. > :19:11.emerge. If that does, one could think it was worth it. It sounds
:19:11. > :19:15.like you are worried at this late stage with the heavy investment of
:19:15. > :19:19.life and treasure, that the Iraqi Government might veer towards Iran?
:19:19. > :19:23.I didn't say that. You mentioned an outside power? Yes, I'm saying to
:19:23. > :19:26.make sure that doesn't happen. I'm not saying it is going to happen.
:19:26. > :19:32.It sounds like you are concerned? No, I didn't say it was going to
:19:32. > :19:35.veer towards. That what I think I said was that we want to make sure
:19:35. > :19:39.that a political and economic system emerges, and Government
:19:39. > :19:45.emerges, that is not under the thumb of an outside power. Iran?
:19:45. > :19:52.Iran, yes, Iran is the number one country I would be concerned about.
:19:52. > :19:58.I didn't say it was going to be under the thumb of Iran. It is a
:19:58. > :20:03.risk, in your view. Do you think American tanks riding into Baghdad
:20:03. > :20:06.in that extraordinary way, hastened the Arab Spring or slowed it down?
:20:06. > :20:13.It should have been a sobering moment for all of the other nations
:20:13. > :20:18.in the region, who were under single person leadership and had
:20:18. > :20:23.been for years. Who did not have the opportunity to elect their own
:20:23. > :20:29.leaders. To some extent it might have had an effect like that.
:20:29. > :20:32.you think the US is playing it about right, currently, with the
:20:32. > :20:36.Arab Spring. Do you think in places like Syria there should be a
:20:36. > :20:39.stronger lead from the US, how do you see the coming months
:20:39. > :20:43.developing? There are still unknowns out there as to how the
:20:43. > :20:49.Arab Spring will play out, and differently in every single country.
:20:49. > :20:54.Syria you have a dictator, who has the example of his father before
:20:54. > :20:58.him, and is being extremely vicious with respect to the protestors and
:20:58. > :21:01.the demonstrators. It remains to be seen, how that is going to play out.
:21:02. > :21:07.I think the United States and the international community, and the UK,
:21:07. > :21:13.and the United Nations, can apply more sanctions, I don't sense, from
:21:13. > :21:18.my perspective, that there is any inclination of sending in military
:21:18. > :21:22.force. Use sanctions and other methods to try to bring pressure on
:21:22. > :21:26.the Syrian regime on President Assad, to realise that this isn't
:21:26. > :21:31.going anywhere for you. Sooner or later you will find these people
:21:31. > :21:37.can't be held down forever. economy is very much front and
:21:37. > :21:40.centre for most Americans. Do you think with the 10th anniversary of
:21:40. > :21:48.9/11, this is a place where the page can be turned, to some extent,
:21:48. > :21:51.and the nation refocused on the economic priority? The nation has
:21:51. > :21:56.been refocused on the economic problems for the last several years.
:21:56. > :22:02.Everybody knows the real strength in this world comes from a strong
:22:02. > :22:05.economy that is creating jobs for your people. We are increasingly
:22:05. > :22:09.focusing on domestic issues here in the United States. This will not
:22:09. > :22:13.cause us to ignore the lessons of 9/11. We are not suddenly going to
:22:13. > :22:17.stop worrying about terrorists, stop thinking that Al-Qaeda, start
:22:17. > :22:24.thinking that Al-Qaeda is totally defeated. It has been badly damaged,
:22:24. > :22:29.but we have to remain on guard. Against the possibility of another
:22:29. > :22:33.terrorist attack, even while we are fixes our economy. The US would
:22:33. > :22:38.have weathered the financial crisis more easily if it hadn't spent
:22:38. > :22:41.thrillions on those wars? We had to deal with Afghanistan, that is
:22:41. > :22:45.where we were attacked from by Al- Qaeda. One could argue as to
:22:45. > :22:47.whether or not we needed to deal with Iraq or not. It would have
:22:47. > :22:51.been easy for Saddam Hussein to have avoided what happened to him,
:22:51. > :22:55.and that might not have been a good thing for the world, but he could
:22:55. > :23:00.have avoided it. We worked hard, and I worked hard to persuade my
:23:00. > :23:05.leadership that we had to take it to the UN and see if war could be
:23:05. > :23:12.avoided. Because there is always unknown consequences of a conflict.
:23:12. > :23:16.But he didn't take the get-out-of- jail card we gave him. The
:23:16. > :23:20.President wanted to go to war. I fully supported him. I went to the
:23:20. > :23:25.UN to make the case and fully supported him from there on in.
:23:25. > :23:29.Laden is dead, the US faces the crises, challenges in the region,
:23:29. > :23:35.the Arab Spring, Iran, is there some sense, though, in which the
:23:35. > :23:40.fact that the US ran up such huge costs in these conflicts a thing
:23:40. > :23:45.that gives him the last laugh, in some awful way? You think Osama Bin
:23:45. > :23:49.Laden is laughing somewhere? I just wonder whether the fact that the US
:23:49. > :23:53.is in such a difficult economic position, cannot contemplate
:23:53. > :23:56.engaging more fully now in the Middle East, origins Iran? This is
:23:57. > :24:02.your judgment. You are making these judgments but they are not my
:24:02. > :24:06.judgments. My judgment is that you are selling the United States short.
:24:06. > :24:11.We have incredible wealth in this country, it is just a matter of
:24:11. > :24:14.tapping into it appropriately, making sure we are investing in the
:24:14. > :24:18.right things. We can do all of those things to put us back on a
:24:18. > :24:22.sound financial footing and show the rest of the world that we still
:24:22. > :24:25.are a model and inspiration for the rest of the world. We can also deal
:24:25. > :24:29.with the challenges that might emerge from Iran and North Korea
:24:29. > :24:33.and places like that. The Iranians are going to face the same
:24:33. > :24:37.pressures, that all of the other countries in the region have faced.
:24:37. > :24:41.I once asked the Iranian Foreign Minister on the one occasion we had
:24:41. > :24:45.to chat with each other. I said what's your number one problem in
:24:45. > :24:48.Iraq, trying to give him a nice easy question that gets neither of
:24:48. > :24:52.us in trouble. And without hesitating in the slightest, he
:24:52. > :24:57.said, we have to create 600,000 jobs a year. He didn't say anything
:24:57. > :25:00.about we have to finish our nuclear programme, we have to create
:25:00. > :25:04.600,000 jobs a year. They have a young, growing population that
:25:04. > :25:08.needs jobs, ultimately those kinds of pressures will force changes in
:25:08. > :25:12.Iran that perhaps nobody is prepared to anticipate now, but
:25:12. > :25:18.will happen. I think these are historic forces at work and Iran
:25:18. > :25:21.will not be immune from these forces. I can assure you that the
:25:21. > :25:28.United States will be playing a role as this world emerges. General
:25:28. > :25:32.Powell, thank you very much. Colin Powell talking to our
:25:32. > :25:37.diplomatic editor earlier today. Since the 9/11 atrocities, the
:25:37. > :25:42.authorities in New York say they have disrupted more than a dozen
:25:42. > :25:47.terror plots in the state. There are real fears that Al-Qaeda could
:25:47. > :25:51.try another take to coincide with the anniversary. Newsnight has been
:25:51. > :25:54.given rare access to counter terrorism teams there. We have also
:25:54. > :25:57.been hearing about complaints from Muslim communities about aggressive
:25:57. > :26:07.tactics and allegations of entrapment, and manufactured
:26:07. > :26:12.convictions. New York on high alert.
:26:12. > :26:18.A city where the fear of attack, especially in the next few days is
:26:18. > :26:21.real. We're worried specifically about
:26:21. > :26:25.something happening on the anniversary of 9/11. New York is
:26:25. > :26:29.certainly at the top of the terrorist tart list as far as this
:26:29. > :26:32.country is concerned. - terrorist attack list as far as this country
:26:32. > :26:36.is concerned. New York is pioneering an aggressive, in your
:26:36. > :26:40.face, counter terrorism strategy. Flooding the streets with armed
:26:40. > :26:44.cops, and controversially, putting informanted undercover in
:26:44. > :26:49.communities. It is a strategy which has led to many arrests. But which
:26:49. > :26:54.critics say has gone too far. Raising concerns over entrapment.
:26:54. > :26:58.They were convicted, but it was entrapment, the Government set it
:26:58. > :27:07.all up. This is entrapment, when you are setting up your own
:27:07. > :27:12.American people, you didn't stumble on a cell, you created a cell.
:27:12. > :27:18.Times Square, early morning. Police from across the city assemble,
:27:18. > :27:24.squad cars from every precinct are given the signal to pull out. Three
:27:24. > :27:28.times a day, dozens of New York City police cars surge across the
:27:28. > :27:32.city like this to key locations. It is a show of force, designed to
:27:32. > :27:37.deter any terrorists, thinking of attacking the city. The police are
:27:37. > :27:40.determined to avoid the mistakes made before 9/11, when the CIA
:27:40. > :27:45.failed to pass on intelligence, which some believe may have
:27:45. > :27:49.thwarted the attacks. A new commissioner was appointed,
:27:49. > :27:52.who was not prepared to leave the protection of New York to others.
:27:52. > :27:59.His focus is on gathering intelligence, carrying out
:28:00. > :28:04.surveillance, and being seen on the streets. His concern, based on
:28:04. > :28:07.intelligence, captured from Osama Bin Laden's compound, is of an
:28:07. > :28:11.imminent attack. We're worried specifically about something
:28:11. > :28:17.happening on the anniversary of 9/11. We saw in some of Bin Laden's
:28:17. > :28:25.material that is there was discussion about the ten-year an
:28:25. > :28:29.remembersry. The assertive police style is visible, even underground,
:28:29. > :28:34.where heavily armed officers patrol. But there is also a less visible
:28:34. > :28:40.presence. Both the NYPD and the FBI use undercover officers, and a
:28:40. > :28:50.network of informants. This has led to growing criticism that they are
:28:50. > :29:00.
:29:00. > :29:03.spying on Muslims, and even Newburgh, 60 miles north of
:29:03. > :29:07.Manhattan, a rundown town in upstate New York. Here the
:29:07. > :29:13.authorities say they disrupted a major plot, involving a group of
:29:13. > :29:17.local men. A hidden surveillance camera
:29:17. > :29:21.catches them inspecting a surface- to-air missile in a local lock-up.
:29:21. > :29:31.Another camera listens in as they talk about mounting a series of
:29:31. > :29:37.
:29:37. > :29:40.The first target was to be this airbase, used by military aircraft.
:29:41. > :29:45.The men wanted to hit it with a surface-to-air missile. They also
:29:45. > :29:50.placed, what they believed were C-4 explosive, at synagogues in New
:29:50. > :29:55.York City. For the authorities, this was a deadly terrorist plot,
:29:55. > :29:58.stopped in its tracks. But, for some, here in the community, it was
:29:58. > :30:02.something entirely different. They question whether the men would
:30:02. > :30:06.really have been capable of planning and carrying out an attack,
:30:06. > :30:12.if it weren't for the encouragement of an undercover informant, working
:30:12. > :30:16.secretly for the FBI. For the critics, this was a classic case of
:30:16. > :30:23.entrapment. They were convicted, but it was entrapment. The
:30:23. > :30:27.Government set it all up. An informant, posing as a rich
:30:27. > :30:31.businessman, first appeared at this mosque in Newburgh, and immediately
:30:31. > :30:35.raised concerns among worshippers. He began to talk to some of the
:30:35. > :30:41.members of the community, and they would come back and say this guy is
:30:41. > :30:47.talking about Jihad, and this, that and the other, we automatically
:30:47. > :30:51.pleefd he was a federal agent. De- believed avenues federal agent. We
:30:51. > :30:56.decided to - believed he was a federal agent. We decided to led
:30:56. > :31:02.people in the community know to watch what they say. The informant
:31:02. > :31:08.latched on to the man on the left, a man active in Islam, and full of
:31:08. > :31:12.hatred with Jews and of the country that he lived. I'm an American
:31:12. > :31:15.soldier, right here in America, that the President don't even know
:31:15. > :31:21.about me. At the mosque he wasn't taken seriously. He really wanted
:31:21. > :31:31.to make some money. I think that's what really captivated him and the
:31:31. > :31:33.
:31:33. > :31:37.others. It was a money thing. The informant, disguised in this
:31:37. > :31:41.video, offered the man a quarter of a million dollars to carry out the
:31:41. > :31:43.attack. With the promise of money, it wasn't difficult to find men in
:31:43. > :31:51.Newburgh prepared to help. Recruited late in the plot, they
:31:51. > :31:54.would be the lookouts. One of them was David Williams, his
:31:54. > :31:58.aunt says he was especially vulnerable. A petty drug dealer,
:31:58. > :32:02.not long out of prison, with a brother in need of expensive
:32:02. > :32:09.medical treatment. These guys ain't got a passport, drivers license,
:32:09. > :32:14.ain't got a pot to pis in and throw it out, they have no money. Are you
:32:14. > :32:19.going to the 99 cent store to find it? The informant who told them he
:32:19. > :32:22.had links to a terror group in Pakistan, supplied what the men
:32:22. > :32:26.thought were C-4 explosives, the authorities insist they follow
:32:26. > :32:33.careful rules when running sting operations like this. Everything we
:32:33. > :32:37.do from there is carefully crafted to ensure that we are not the ones
:32:37. > :32:42.encouraging the plot, all we are doing is providing the means to do
:32:42. > :32:45.that, and in this a controlled way that prevent the act of terrorism
:32:45. > :32:53.from happening. But Alicia McWilliams believes the whole
:32:53. > :32:57.operation was built on a tissue of lies. You didn't stumble on a cell,
:32:57. > :33:02.but you created a cell, it is your bombs and your C-4. They ain't got
:33:02. > :33:07.no money. The tactics used here are not
:33:07. > :33:11.unusual. Reportedly there have been over 200 successful terrorism
:33:11. > :33:15.prosecutions, involving informants in America, since 9/11.
:33:15. > :33:20.The US Attorney-General told me such methods are justified. There
:33:20. > :33:25.have been claims that there has been cases of near entrapment in
:33:25. > :33:29.terms of the use of informers against some of those home-grown
:33:29. > :33:32.cells. Those charges have been made, I'm really confident we have
:33:33. > :33:36.conducted ourselves consistent with the law. Always giving people who
:33:36. > :33:39.we have come in contact with an opportunity to not go down that
:33:39. > :33:43.road. They are always given the option to say I have changed my
:33:43. > :33:47.mind, I don't want to engage in this terrorist act, and what we
:33:47. > :33:52.have seen with the cases we have brought is people, of their on
:33:52. > :33:58.volition, made the termination they wanted to commit a terrorist act.
:33:58. > :34:03.But critics point to moments where the ringleader in the Newburgh case,
:34:03. > :34:08.appeared to have doubts. If this informant had not been involved in
:34:08. > :34:12.this cautious I guarantee you those four guys, if they were still
:34:12. > :34:17.together, would be on the avenue somewhere, or on the block
:34:18. > :34:22.somewhere, smoking marijuana, drinking beer and barbecue, that is
:34:22. > :34:27.what they would be doing. That is what they would be doing. They were
:34:27. > :34:31.the run of the mill type. That's a view rejected by the authorities,
:34:31. > :34:37.who arrested the men after they planted the fake bombs, and the
:34:37. > :34:47.trial jury who convicted them. Three were sentenced to 25 years in
:34:47. > :34:49.
:34:49. > :34:52.jail, although the judge conceded, aspects of the case were troubling.
:34:52. > :34:57.This is the George Washington Bridge, very famous and very
:34:57. > :35:00.critical. It is always a potential target for terrorists. Despite the
:35:00. > :35:05.growing criticism, New York's authorities believe their tactics
:35:05. > :35:08.work, and are vital, so long as the city remains top of the terrorist
:35:08. > :35:12.target list. There is no question about it that New York is safer
:35:12. > :35:18.than it was ten years ago, but there are no guarantees. We don't
:35:18. > :35:26.know what we don't know, and we are doing everything that I believe we
:35:26. > :35:29.can do, to protect the city, but it is a dangerous world. The takes a
:35:29. > :35:34.decade ago traumatised New York, and those in charge of preventing a
:35:34. > :35:43.return to Ground Zero, do not want to be accused of not doing enough.
:35:43. > :35:46.However controversial some of their measures might be.
:35:46. > :35:52.That's all from us in New York tonight. Join us here tomorrow for
:35:52. > :35:57.our special edition of Newsnight to coincide with the anniversary. We
:35:57. > :36:07.will hear from Donald Rumsfeld, and the famous known unknown, and we
:36:07. > :36:14.will discuss the way 9/11 changed America with Carl Bernstein and our
:36:14. > :36:17.other guests. Imagine if you can, switching on
:36:17. > :36:22.the television and discovering the man you married as a teenager turns
:36:22. > :36:32.out to be a murder of young women. That is what happened to Cathy when
:36:32. > :36:33.
:36:33. > :36:37.she married Tobin, the killer. She explains how she escaped his sights.
:36:37. > :36:41.This is her first-ever broadcast interview.
:36:41. > :36:46.Murderer, rapist, abuser, abducter and husband and father. Over the
:36:46. > :36:52.course of three deck taids, Peter Tobin committed acts that would see
:36:52. > :36:55.him jailed on three life sentences. His past is dark and complicated. A
:36:55. > :37:00.childhood in Glasgow's Young Offenders Institute, married twice
:37:00. > :37:06.in his 20s. In 1986 he met Cathy Wilson, three years later they
:37:06. > :37:10.married, Tobin now in his 30s, Cathy still a teenager. They had a
:37:10. > :37:15.son Daniel and they lived briefly in Bathgate in Scotland, before
:37:15. > :37:20.Cathy managed to leave him. Not long afterwards, the schoolgirl
:37:20. > :37:28.Vicky Hamilton goes missing from a bus stop in Bathgate. Six months
:37:28. > :37:35.later, another teenager Dina McNichol goes missing from a music
:37:35. > :37:39.festival in Hampshire. Dinah McNichol if you are watching go to
:37:39. > :37:43.the phone and your father and family are waiting to hear if you
:37:43. > :37:48.are well. Cathy and the wider public are still in the dark.
:37:48. > :37:55.Meanwhile Daniel is growing up and still making occasional visits to
:37:55. > :38:00.see his father. During one such visit Tobin drugs and rapes two 13-
:38:00. > :38:04.year-old girls and goes on the run. That same year Peter Tobin is
:38:05. > :38:12.brought to justice, and sentenced to 14 years, although he service
:38:12. > :38:19.only nine. On his early release he heads to Glasgow and takes up
:38:19. > :38:24.refuge at St Patrick's church, where he murders a young polish
:38:24. > :38:29.student. He's finally sentenced for that murder and his years of
:38:29. > :38:34.deception begin to unravel. Police are led to his home and find the
:38:34. > :38:38.bodies of two women. Cathy gets a call from her aunt to turn on the
:38:38. > :38:45.television. She realised the man she married, divorced and feared
:38:45. > :38:51.for so many years, indeed a serial killer lt Cathy, you met Pete -
:38:51. > :38:56.killer. Cathy, you met Peter Tobin in 1986, what were you and he like
:38:56. > :39:01.at the time? He was very charming, with very exotic tales of fighting
:39:01. > :39:05.in the army. He said he was at Aden, he said he worked on the oil rigs,
:39:05. > :39:10.and it all seemed a world away from my lifestyle at the time. He gave
:39:10. > :39:13.me lots of attention, that made me feel very special. Generally, no
:39:13. > :39:21.flowers or dinner, nothing quite as nice as that.
:39:21. > :39:27.Why did you marry him? I had my son, my son was nine months old at this
:39:27. > :39:32.point. It was quite important for me for my son to have a strong
:39:32. > :39:36.father figure in his life, I hadn't had one, my father wasn't on the
:39:36. > :39:39.scene growing up. Peter suggested it, and I thought it was a great
:39:39. > :39:43.idea. My son would then not be out of wedlock, I thought that was
:39:43. > :39:47.important for me to do. When did you start to see through him and
:39:47. > :39:52.see through the stories he told you? I hadn't seen through any of
:39:52. > :40:02.the stories at all, it wasn't until 1994 when I was called into the
:40:02. > :40:05.
:40:05. > :40:08.police station with reference to the two girls that he had assaulted.
:40:08. > :40:13.The police officer at the time said to me do you know anything about
:40:13. > :40:16.this man, I said yes, yes, he fought in Aden and on disability
:40:16. > :40:21.benefit because he had shrapnel in his wrist and head, and he worked
:40:21. > :40:25.on the oil rigs. He said he hadn't done any of those things at all,
:40:25. > :40:29.that was the first time I found out about it. You mentioned the police
:40:29. > :40:33.contacted you because of the assault on these two young girls,
:40:33. > :40:37.they were two 13-year-old girls raped by Tobin? Yes, I know. When
:40:37. > :40:40.you learned that, how did you feel about that? I was sitting in it the
:40:40. > :40:45.police station, I was saying this can't be right, it can't be this
:40:46. > :40:49.man that has done this. Absolutely not, it is not the man I know.
:40:49. > :40:53.However violent he had been towards me in my life, it was towards me
:40:53. > :40:56.and not towards young girls. They said no-one of the girls has
:40:56. > :40:59.managed to regain consciousness and confirmed it was him. That is when
:40:59. > :41:03.everything came out. I helped the police as much as I could to
:41:03. > :41:06.suggest where he might have been hiding. Eventually in one of the
:41:07. > :41:12.places I suggested they found him six weeks later. Your son Daniel
:41:12. > :41:18.was in the same house, even though he didn't witness what went on?
:41:18. > :41:23.transpired he lured the girls into the house under the premise they
:41:23. > :41:27.would babysit for Daniel in the evening. When he got there he must
:41:27. > :41:30.have offered them an introductor glass of something which has been
:41:30. > :41:36.drugged. Because the police said there was copious amounts of
:41:37. > :41:41.alcohol and drugs in their system. So Daniel was the lure to get the
:41:41. > :41:44.girls to go into the house, at one point in the evening he was in his
:41:44. > :41:48.bedroom. At one point in the evening he called Daniel to bring
:41:48. > :41:51.ice from the kitchen into the room, because there was blood and he
:41:51. > :41:55.wanted to stem the flow of blood. Daniel was in the room for two
:41:55. > :42:00.minutes, and thankfully went back out again. I don't know how a man
:42:00. > :42:04.can do that to his own son, really. How did you play you and Daniel?
:42:04. > :42:08.was at home with him and I said I really think this relationship is
:42:08. > :42:12.failing and we need a divorce, and he picked up Daniel, took him to
:42:12. > :42:16.the stop of the staircase, and threatened to throw him down the
:42:16. > :42:20.stairs, he said you will never ever leave me, at all. And I could see
:42:20. > :42:23.in his eyes he really meant it. From that moment on, until I
:42:23. > :42:28.managed to escape three months later, he didn't leave my side.
:42:28. > :42:31.Then moving forward to 2006, you got the real shock of switching on
:42:32. > :42:36.the television. Tell me about that. My aunt phoned me up and said turn
:42:36. > :42:41.the television on now. I turned it on and there was Peter Tobin's face.
:42:41. > :42:44.It was a shock and disbelief, shock because I hadn't seen this face for
:42:44. > :42:48.12 years. Having been released early once, he was released early a
:42:48. > :42:51.second time? I know, and this wouldn't have been killed if he
:42:51. > :42:55.hadn't been released early. Released two years early. How does
:42:56. > :43:00.that make you feel? Sick, really, this is a completely unnecessary
:43:00. > :43:04.death. Completely unnecessary death. I fully think our judicial system
:43:04. > :43:06.is wrong. I think if you get given a sentence that is what the judge
:43:07. > :43:13.feels you should be paying the price with. I think it is
:43:13. > :43:16.completely inappropriate you don't do it, it doesn't make sense to me
:43:16. > :43:19.giving someone 14 years and then coming out after eight. If he had
:43:19. > :43:23.completed the 14 years there would be one other girl still alive.
:43:23. > :43:27.the police started to investigate where the bodies were buried and if
:43:28. > :43:34.there were even more murders? believe the crimes have been so
:43:34. > :43:38.severe, the murders so awful, all murders are awful, but particularly
:43:38. > :43:41.vicious, that you don't get to his age committing that without having
:43:41. > :43:45.done anything before. They are reinvestigating the whole of his
:43:45. > :43:49.life. Even though they are looking to see. Because there have been
:43:49. > :43:51.some suggestions that he may have murdered many, many more people?
:43:52. > :43:58.Apparently, I have heard through the police source that is he has
:43:58. > :44:02.been bragging in prison that he may have been responsible for 48.
:44:02. > :44:07.Murders? Yeah. When you look on that. Could you see a pattern now,
:44:07. > :44:11.could you think of things in the past, in your past relationship
:44:11. > :44:14.with Tobin, that might have, perhaps, set off alarm bells,
:44:14. > :44:20.things that might have triggered you to think differently about him
:44:20. > :44:23.at the time? I have vague memories and flashbacks of various
:44:23. > :44:29.inappropriate situations of women coming and going, but it is really
:44:29. > :44:34.the police filling in the spaces. Peter Tobin's drug of choice is his
:44:34. > :44:40.medication drug, which he has used for all of his victims. Apparently
:44:40. > :44:44.it is a heavy sedative, so they feel it is reasonable to assume he
:44:44. > :44:49.was giving me some of these drugs on an evening basis. You were not
:44:49. > :44:52.aware of that? I didn't drink when my son was young, a drop, it was
:44:52. > :44:56.definitely not an alcohol thing, there were evenings I didn't
:44:56. > :45:03.remember at all. I was asked did he go out in the evenings to casino, I
:45:03. > :45:08.said he never left the house in the evenings, they said no, he has a
:45:08. > :45:15.gambling habit going to the casinos on a regular basis, I had no idea.
:45:15. > :45:18.That appears to be the thing of using drugs, assaulting young women
:45:19. > :45:24.and murdering them, he appears to have tried out something like that
:45:24. > :45:27.with you? When I had his son, I changed in his eyes from being a
:45:27. > :45:32.potential victim to being a possession. I think that's why I'm
:45:32. > :45:36.still alive. But he still wanted to practice his techniques. Do you
:45:36. > :45:40.think having Daniel, having your son saved you? Without a shadow of
:45:40. > :45:44.a doubt. I directly fit the profile of everything, every other girl
:45:44. > :45:50.that he has been associated with in any form, and I really don't think
:45:50. > :45:55.I should be here today. There is already devastation for
:45:55. > :46:02.five families, there will be a lot more to come out. If makes me feel
:46:03. > :46:12.sick thatman man ever touched me. A quick look at tomorrow morning's
:46:13. > :46:35.
:46:35. > :46:42.That's all from Newsnight, tomorrow the 9/11 anniversary programme from
:46:42. > :46:49.New York. We will leave you with the court pictures for the latest
:46:49. > :46:59.battle between the Prime Minister and the mayor! To mark National
:46:59. > :47:22.
:47:22. > :47:26.# Anyone for tennis, wouldn't that be nice.
:47:26. > :47:29.It is a really mild night out there, it will be a warm day on Friday.
:47:29. > :47:32.Particularly where we get some sunshine. We start fairly cloudy
:47:32. > :47:36.with rain in northern England and southern Scotland. That slowly
:47:36. > :47:39.clears, it lingers in northern Scotland, however, elsewhere, bar
:47:39. > :47:43.one or two scattered showers, most places looking dry. It is in
:47:43. > :47:50.eastern areas where we will see things brightening up to reveal
:47:50. > :47:53.sunshine. In the low 20s, 23, or 24 in one or two places. The south
:47:54. > :47:57.coast could be grey, misty in the beaches of South-West England. A
:47:57. > :48:01.bit of brightness is possible, chiefly to the north-east of the
:48:01. > :48:07.moors. Same in Wales, mostly cloudy, a few scattered showers, generally
:48:07. > :48:13.dry. A bit of brightness, sunny spells to the north-east. It should
:48:14. > :48:18.brighten up in Wales, it could easily reach 20 degrees. Slowly
:48:18. > :48:21.brightening up in central Scotland. The far north a wet old day. On
:48:21. > :48:25.Saturday another band of rain working across Northern Ireland.
:48:25. > :48:30.That will be fold by showers. Crucially t will also - followed by
:48:30. > :48:33.showers, crucially it will bring showers in the eastern area.
:48:34. > :48:37.24 in London maybe, elsewhere it will turn blustery with lots of