:00:09. > :00:15.Tonight, we're live from New York, with a special edition of Newsnight,
:00:15. > :00:19.to mark the decade since 9/11, as America takes in reports of a new
:00:19. > :00:23.Al-Qaeda threat. Al-Qaeda, again, is seeking toe harm Americans, and
:00:23. > :00:28.in particular - to harm Americans, and in particular to target New
:00:28. > :00:32.York and Washington. We will be getting a reaction from Michael
:00:32. > :00:35.Chertoff, America's director of Homeland Security. In a specially
:00:35. > :00:42.extended programme, we will explore the impact of 9/11 on America and
:00:42. > :00:47.the world. I will be speaking to Rumsfeld - Donald Rumsfeld, the
:00:47. > :00:52.architect of the US response. was not about retaliation or
:00:52. > :00:56.revengs, our task is - revenge, our task is to protect the American
:00:56. > :01:01.people, not to get even. We will hear from those caught up in the
:01:01. > :01:06.day. The guys were over here, they were like we can't hear you, then
:01:06. > :01:09.he turned round the megaphone round and said he could hear us, and the
:01:09. > :01:13.whole world can hear you, and the people who knocked down the
:01:13. > :01:18.buildings will hear all of us soon. I have been at Ground Zero, looking
:01:18. > :01:22.at the difficult process of rebuilding and recovery. Did the
:01:22. > :01:32.atrocity change American life and culture forever? I will be talking
:01:32. > :01:33.
:01:33. > :01:36.about that with Carl Bernstein, Fran Leibowitz and Suzanne Vega.
:01:36. > :01:39.Good evening, as we approach Sunday's anniversary, it is not
:01:39. > :01:43.surprising there is a new security alert in America. The threat to the
:01:43. > :01:48.country has never gone away. In had the decade since the terrible
:01:48. > :01:52.events of 9/11, the US has fought back on several fronts. Against the
:01:52. > :01:56.Taliban in Afghanistan. In a devisive war in Iraq. With new
:01:56. > :02:00.security laws at home. Counter terrorism in Pakistan, where Osama
:02:00. > :02:10.Bin Laden was finally captured and killed. First tonight, our
:02:10. > :02:20.
:02:20. > :02:26.diplomatic editor assesss America's We never dreamed this would happen
:02:26. > :02:32.on American soil, so we grew up very fast. They did it in our
:02:32. > :02:36.backyard, I can't turn the other cheek, not on this one. So much
:02:36. > :02:43.changed that day, so many souls were lost. So many preconceptions
:02:44. > :02:47.shared about America and the length it would go to defend itself. Two
:02:48. > :02:52.planes caused huge casualties in New York, another was flown into
:02:52. > :02:58.the Pentagon in Washington. The dead from that attack are
:02:58. > :03:02.remembered here. The choice of the Pentagon as a target was a
:03:02. > :03:07.deliberate humiliation by Al-Qaeda of American power. It called for a
:03:07. > :03:13.completely new kind of strategic thinking, a different sort of
:03:13. > :03:19.response. President Bush, fuelled by popular outrage, hurled American
:03:19. > :03:23.power forward across the world, in retaliation, in a series of steps
:03:23. > :03:28.that would prove enormously costly, and the consequences of which are
:03:28. > :03:32.still being felt today. General Jack Keane was in the
:03:32. > :03:36.highest councils of the military. The fact of the matter is, to
:03:36. > :03:40.conduct the low end of war, against people who blend in against the
:03:40. > :03:43.population, and who use the population as a shield to protect
:03:43. > :03:48.them, even though they are conducting a relatively low tech
:03:48. > :03:52.war, so to speak, against a very high-tech military, intellectually
:03:52. > :03:55.we were not ready for. That we had purging ourselves of everything we
:03:56. > :04:01.had learned from our ten-year experience in Vietnam at the end of
:04:01. > :04:05.that war, based on how that war ended. We drove it out of our
:04:05. > :04:09.doctrine. The military had barely thought about striking back when
:04:09. > :04:16.the President visited Ground Zero. There people were still clawing
:04:16. > :04:21.away at the rubble, desperate to find survivors. Among them was Bob
:04:21. > :04:27.Beckwith, a remired firefighter who had donned his old uniform and gone
:04:27. > :04:31.to help. He came right in front of me and he puts his arm up, I
:04:31. > :04:36.thought, oh my God, I turned around and ask if he was OK, he said yes,
:04:36. > :04:39.I started to get down. I said where are you going, I said I was told to
:04:39. > :04:45.get on, and he said stay right here. He started to talk. The guys over
:04:45. > :04:50.here are yelling they can't hear, then he turned that megaphone round
:04:50. > :04:55.and said, I can hear you, the whole world hears you, we will find the
:04:55. > :05:01.people who knocked these buildings down will hear all of us
:05:01. > :05:06.soon....will Hear all of us soon. Do you think America was bent on
:05:06. > :05:13.revenge after 9/11? Revenge. Of course that is what you were going
:05:13. > :05:16.to do. We're at war. Colleen Kelly's brother, Bill, had
:05:16. > :05:21.gone to a conference in the north tower that morning, it took his
:05:21. > :05:26.family weeks to accept that he would never come home. We don't
:05:26. > :05:36.know when Bill died, none of us know how he died, exactly or when
:05:36. > :05:40.he died. I didn't want to think of my brother being scared and fearful
:05:40. > :05:46.and you know I wanted to think of him having his last thoughts that
:05:46. > :05:52.he would survive. The loss of Bill Kelhy, Colleen's brother, produced
:05:52. > :05:57.grief, but then anxiety too, as America started to strike back
:05:57. > :06:01.weeks after the attack. I do remember very, very clearly,
:06:02. > :06:06.October 7th when we started bombing in Afghanistan, feeling awful. I
:06:06. > :06:11.just remember crying that whole day, and thinking that there is now
:06:11. > :06:16.families in Afghanistan who have nothing to do with September 11th,
:06:16. > :06:21.who would now be in the same position as our family. On a very
:06:21. > :06:25.deep, real sense, that didn't make sense to me. We will spoke them out
:06:25. > :06:29.of their holes, we will get them running and we will bring them to
:06:29. > :06:34.justice. The Bush administration declared war on terror, very soon
:06:34. > :06:38.it was mired in controversy. Guantanamo Bay produced shocking
:06:38. > :06:43.images. And even as operations continued in Afghanistan, President
:06:43. > :06:47.Bush sought to carry the fight to the heart of the Arab world. Right
:06:47. > :06:51.after we took the Taliban down, we had a meeting among the senior
:06:51. > :06:55.generals, and the chairman told us that the administration has made up
:06:55. > :07:01.its mind to go to war in Iraq. I was the first one to speak, I said,
:07:01. > :07:05.why, why are we doing that? He said he didn't know why. We would
:07:05. > :07:10.eventually get some insict to that decision. I said why - insight to
:07:10. > :07:15.that decision. I said why not wait. I could see the logic myself, but
:07:15. > :07:18.why not wait and finish the Al- Qaeda off in Afghanistan. We have
:07:18. > :07:23.taken down the Taliban, we have plenty of Al-Qaeda running around
:07:23. > :07:28.here, we have to get our arms around these guys. The invasion of
:07:28. > :07:33.Iraq soon brought US troops into the heart of Baghdad. It was laden
:07:33. > :07:39.with symbolism, as an Arab strongman fell. In the square, the
:07:39. > :07:45.placing of an American flag suggested triumphalism, the
:07:45. > :07:49.euphoria of naked power. Captain Casey Kuhlman was the
:07:49. > :07:54.Maureen officer who saw that - marine officer who saw that happen
:07:54. > :07:57.and quickly stepped in. I said that is not what we are here to say,
:07:57. > :08:01.that is the worst possible thing we should be showing the world right
:08:01. > :08:06.now. We were all very aware of hoich of the world was watching us
:08:06. > :08:10.at that - how much of the world was watching us at that time. Since I
:08:10. > :08:15.was right by my vehicle, I went and pulled an Iraqi flag. Did you,
:08:15. > :08:22.while you were still in the city, feel a change of mood? We pulled
:08:22. > :08:32.the statue down, and then we said, OK, what now, boss? They said, OK,
:08:32. > :08:32.
:08:33. > :08:36.what now boss? And they said, what now, boss? There was silence.
:08:36. > :08:43.silence cost America dear. So much so it prevented large scale
:08:43. > :08:49.interventions elsewhere. The Bush administration Iraq surge allowed a
:08:49. > :08:57.graceful exit, an opportunity Barack Obama was determined to take.
:08:57. > :08:59.At the lab Day parade in Maryland, there were plenty of Obama
:08:59. > :09:04.supporters, this is staunch Democratic country. The theme of
:09:04. > :09:09.the day fit neatly with that of the moment, keeping America moving
:09:09. > :09:13.forward, trying to restart the economy. The Obama administration
:09:13. > :09:19.may have come in with a markedly different political language, and
:09:19. > :09:23.an attempt to reassert traditional American values in foreign policy,
:09:23. > :09:28.but certain inconvenient facts remain, that Guantanamo Bay is
:09:28. > :09:34.still open, despite a campaign pledge, and that certain types of
:09:34. > :09:38.pre-emptive strike, for example by drones in Pakistan, have gone on at
:09:38. > :09:42.an even greater rate under this President than President Bush.
:09:42. > :09:46.determined that it is in our vital national interest to send an
:09:46. > :09:50.additional 30,000 US troops to Afghanistan. President Obama may
:09:50. > :09:57.have wanted out of Iraq, but he surged in Afghanistan, and ramped
:09:57. > :10:02.up special operations. Four months ago, that paid
:10:02. > :10:05.spectacular dividends, with the killing of Osama Bin Laden. If I
:10:05. > :10:09.was the sharp shooter I would have shot Bin Laden in the throat, give
:10:09. > :10:17.him another minute to think about it. He knows he's going to die, but
:10:17. > :10:25.think about it. But they took him right out, right through his head.
:10:25. > :10:30.A at Deep Creek Lake, they held Labour Day holiday races, America's
:10:30. > :10:34.economy is struggling to get under way, and costly wars have required
:10:34. > :10:37.huge borrow, money that might have helped the re- huge borrowing,
:10:37. > :10:41.money that might have helped the recovery. The economy has been the
:10:41. > :10:45.lynch pin of security. If you look at what happened to the Soviet
:10:45. > :10:50.Union, their economy collapsed, their state collapsed, our economy
:10:50. > :10:53.can collapse. Europe can collapse. These things are very much, I think,
:10:53. > :10:57.they have to be very much in front of people in terms of thinking
:10:57. > :11:01.about security. I think we need to focus back, get our own fiscal
:11:01. > :11:10.policy back in line. We need to get our budget back in line, and maybe
:11:10. > :11:14.pull back and not be the police for the world.
:11:14. > :11:19.Ten years on, the passage of time, and the death of Bin Laden, have
:11:20. > :11:24.brought some sense of closure to Americans, and intervention on the
:11:24. > :11:28.grand scale, practised soon after the attacks, is no longer on the
:11:28. > :11:34.political agenda. But make no mistake, this country is prepared
:11:34. > :11:44.to act lethally and pre-emptively against terrorists now, in way that
:11:44. > :11:45.
:11:45. > :11:51.was one thinkable before 9/11. - unthinkable before 9/11.
:11:51. > :11:56.The man who led the military response to 9/11 was secretary of
:11:56. > :11:59.defence, Donald Rumsfeld, you I spoke to him earlier about the
:11:59. > :12:03.prosduegs - prosecution of the so- called war on terror. First I asked
:12:03. > :12:08.him about his memories on that day. When the plane hit the Pentagon,
:12:08. > :12:14.what did you do? I left my office to find out what had happened. No-
:12:14. > :12:20.one knew what had hit the Pentagon or caused the explosion. Or for the
:12:20. > :12:25.building to shake. I ran down the hall on my floor, and as the smoke
:12:25. > :12:29.got too bad I decided I better go downstairs and go outside. Which I
:12:29. > :12:34.did, I ran into a Lieutenant Colonel, who had seen a plane, who
:12:34. > :12:37.told me he had seen the plane hit the Pentagon, and that is what
:12:37. > :12:43.caused the damage. I ran around the corner and there was the smoke and
:12:43. > :12:47.the flame and the people streaming out of the building burning. It was
:12:47. > :12:55.shortly after it happened that I was physically there. Presumably
:12:55. > :12:58.you know people who perished? goodness, yes. You can't ever say
:12:58. > :13:04.you're fortunate after something like. That but the plane happened
:13:04. > :13:10.to hit a section that was not yet fully occupied. That was reinforced.
:13:10. > :13:14.It had been part of the Pentagon that had been rehabilitated and
:13:14. > :13:18.fixed. It was stronger and therefore we were, as I say,
:13:18. > :13:22.fortunate that the numbers weren't much larger. Do you still think
:13:22. > :13:26.about it, does it come to you in strange moments that day, in
:13:26. > :13:31.flashbacks or dreams? Oh my goodness, yes. You can't go through
:13:31. > :13:36.something like that, and watch those Twin Towers, or think of the
:13:36. > :13:41.people aboard that aeroplane that crashed in Pennsylvania, where the
:13:41. > :13:46.passengers went in and subdued the terrorists, and saved the capital,
:13:46. > :13:50.or the White House from being attacked as well. People had very
:13:50. > :13:57.powerful emotions around that time, particularly of revenge, you had to
:13:57. > :14:00.then snap too, in a way, go to the person and see to your job. You had
:14:00. > :14:04.to implement what was going to happen. The President called and
:14:04. > :14:14.said start getting your people thinking about what's next for us.
:14:14. > :14:16.
:14:16. > :14:21.He said it will come to you. You used the word "revenge", I try
:14:21. > :14:26.to avoid having people use that word. This isn't about retaliation
:14:26. > :14:31.or revenge, I said, our task is to protect the American people. It is
:14:31. > :14:34.not to get even. It is to put pressure on terrorists, wherever
:14:34. > :14:38.they are, make everything they do more difficult, harder to talk on
:14:38. > :14:45.the phone, harder to move around from countries, harder to find a
:14:45. > :14:53.country that will be hospitable to them, and harder to recruit and
:14:53. > :15:00.raise money. When you think about what happened at Abu Ghraib, and
:15:00. > :15:06.the enhanced techniques and a the talk of rendition. Do you think you
:15:06. > :15:12.went too far? I don't know what you mean by you, the Pentagon didn't do
:15:12. > :15:18.waterboarding and renditions at all. I know the world thinks they did,
:15:18. > :15:24.the CIA water boarded three people, and the director of the CIA, and
:15:24. > :15:33.his successor, and they were appointed by Clinton, and the other
:15:33. > :15:37.two by Bush, they Leon Panetta, appointed by President Obama, they
:15:37. > :15:42.all said the information that came from those interrogations,
:15:42. > :15:46.constituted a large fraction of what we knew about Al-Qaeda, and in
:15:46. > :15:52.some instances contributed to the mosaic that led to the killing of
:15:52. > :15:56.Osama Bin Laden. My view is that the people in the CIA did what the
:15:56. > :16:02.President ask them to do, they did it professionally, it benefited the
:16:02. > :16:06.information that was needed to tackle the new problem of a
:16:06. > :16:12.terrorist network like Al-Qaeda. After almost a decade, the US
:16:12. > :16:17.finally got Bin Laden, do you think the death of Bin Laden represents a
:16:17. > :16:21.moment when America can stop feeling fearful? Can stop feeling
:16:21. > :16:26.fearful? About Al-Qaeda? You say America as though we are
:16:26. > :16:29.distinctive. There have been a lot of successful terrorist attacks in
:16:29. > :16:32.the world since September 11th, they have happened not to be in the
:16:32. > :16:36.United States, they have occurred in a number of other locations and
:16:36. > :16:40.other countries. No, I think that Osama Bin Laden is replacable, and
:16:41. > :16:45.that there will be a replacement. I think that the wroorder, deeper
:16:45. > :16:51.task, is - broader, deeper task, is to weaken their fundraising support
:16:51. > :16:55.s and recruiting ability, and to persuade more people that attending
:16:55. > :16:59.radical Madrass, and learning how to strap suicide bombs on your body
:16:59. > :17:05.and going in and killing innocent men, women and children, ought not
:17:05. > :17:11.to be your first choice in life. it time, then, to talk to the
:17:11. > :17:14.people now the leaders of Al-Qaeda, the double-headed beast. The former
:17:14. > :17:18.MI5 leader said just this week, look, in the end I hope western
:17:18. > :17:21.countries are talked to Al-Qaeda. The inference being that eventually
:17:21. > :17:26.you talked to the IRA, and the Taliban, because it is necessary to
:17:26. > :17:31.have that kind of solution? There is no question about that, people
:17:31. > :17:35.have to be persuaded to not do what they are doing. If free people are
:17:36. > :17:41.going to be able to get up when they want and go where they want,
:17:41. > :17:45.and say what they want and do what they want without fear. If that
:17:45. > :17:48.means talking to people attached to Al-Qaeda, you should do it? We talk
:17:48. > :17:51.to people all over the globe, and trying to persuade them, directly,
:17:51. > :17:58.and indirectly, they should be doing that. You have no compunction
:17:58. > :18:03.about that, if that, in the end, leads to peace? The goal has to be
:18:03. > :18:07.to compete in the battle of ideas. Their idea is a danger to them, and
:18:07. > :18:13.danger to the world, and we need to be willing to confront it, and to
:18:13. > :18:17.talk about it and persuade people not to do that. If that means
:18:17. > :18:20.talking to members of Al-Qaeda so be it, the same way you have to
:18:20. > :18:26.talk to the Taliban and the IRA? They are talking to the Taliban,
:18:26. > :18:29.sure, yeah. Where do you think, you talked about the knowns and
:18:29. > :18:34.unknowns, where do you think the next threat is coming from, when
:18:34. > :18:39.you look at Syria, Syria now we know, there is people being killed
:18:39. > :18:44.in the streets, there is attacks on homes, the other hour, there is
:18:44. > :18:49.torture. What makes it any different from Libya? Well, I think,
:18:49. > :18:54.if you asked me cold, which is it more important to the United States
:18:54. > :18:58.in our strategic interest, clearly Syria is, Libya was a side show
:18:58. > :19:03.compared to, not to the people involved, not to the people being
:19:03. > :19:08.killed or being repressed by Gaddafi. But the combination of
:19:08. > :19:11.Syria and Iran is, they are out funding terrorist network, and
:19:11. > :19:17.causing difficulties in Iraq, difficulties in Afghanistan. They
:19:17. > :19:21.are brutal to their own people. I mean, the Assad regime is a vicious
:19:21. > :19:25.regime, the idea he's a reformer is nonsense. Just on that very point,
:19:25. > :19:30.you said, just in your speech, that you tried to counsel President Bush
:19:30. > :19:36.not to call it a war on terror, you thought that was wrong? I lost. He
:19:36. > :19:41.decided to call it that. What was your argument against? I think once
:19:41. > :19:44.you say the word "war", the implication is it will be a battle
:19:44. > :19:48.of bullets, tanks and airplanes, but what we are engaged in here is
:19:48. > :19:52.much more than that. It is not going to be won by bullets, it is a
:19:53. > :19:58.problem of a competition of ideas, a way to live lives. Second, once
:19:58. > :20:02.you say "war", the implication is that the Pentagon will solve it.
:20:02. > :20:09.Once you say a war on terror, what you are basically talking about,
:20:09. > :20:12.ter I don't is a technique a - terror is a method, it is a
:20:12. > :20:18.technique used, they could use tanks, terrorist activities. You
:20:18. > :20:21.are not make warring on tanks and terrorists, you are making war on
:20:21. > :20:26.the people that are trying to kill innocent men, women and children.
:20:26. > :20:30.Do you think you can talk about the war in Iraq and say, well, one of
:20:30. > :20:35.the reasons I think it was a good thing, is because it has led to the
:20:35. > :20:40.Arab Spring? Oh goodness, I couldn't prove that. There is no
:20:40. > :20:43.question it is a good thing to have a country in that part of the world,
:20:43. > :20:47.that has a constitution they have fashioned, has a democratic
:20:47. > :20:51.Government, is respectful of the various diverse element, and no
:20:51. > :20:55.longer has a vicious dictator running it, and is no longer the
:20:55. > :21:01.kind of country willing to invade its neighbour like Kuwait.
:21:01. > :21:05.6,000 though US personnel, 3 1,000 though others, civilians, women,
:21:05. > :21:09.and children, it was worth it? think the world is a better place
:21:09. > :21:16.with Saddam Hussein gone, but that evolving democracy in that part of
:21:16. > :21:20.the world, I think he's right. said, we cannot guarantee what sort
:21:20. > :21:26.of regimes come out of Egypt, and Tunisia? Nobody knows about those
:21:26. > :21:28.countries. You can't help but be hopeful they will end up with freer
:21:28. > :21:33.political systems and economic systems and the young people will
:21:33. > :21:37.get jobs and opportunities. But you can't be certain of it. Therefore,
:21:37. > :21:42.you have to do what you can to try to encourage the people that are
:21:42. > :21:45.trying to move in the right direction, and discourage those
:21:45. > :21:48.that are moving in the wrong direction. Thank you.
:21:48. > :21:52.I'm joined now by Michael Chertoff, the former Secretary of State for
:21:52. > :21:56.Homeland Security, who introduced many of the most controversial
:21:56. > :22:00.legal measures of the war on terror. Joining us in a moment will be
:22:00. > :22:06.Christiane Amanporu, foreign correspondent and anchor of ABC's
:22:06. > :22:14.This Week programme, Brad Blakeman, whose nephew died in the attacks
:22:14. > :22:20.and former adviser to the Bush administration, and John
:22:20. > :22:24.Meersheimer. We are now apparently on the high security alert, how
:22:24. > :22:29.serious is it to be discussed by the Secretary of State? This is not
:22:30. > :22:36.the first time since September 1 we have had this kind of warning. What
:22:36. > :22:39.was - 11th September we have had this kind of warning. There may be
:22:39. > :22:43.a particular piece of information but we don't know about it. What
:22:43. > :22:46.will the authorities be doing in this mosaic of making sure that New
:22:46. > :22:50.York and Washington, particularly, is safe? Two things are happening,
:22:50. > :22:55.one is a very determined effort to collect more intelligence. All the
:22:55. > :22:58.sources, human sources, technical sources, are being pushed to get
:22:58. > :23:04.more details. Second, you see a show of force, you see it in New
:23:04. > :23:06.York. The idea is to be prepared and also for anybody to deter, by
:23:06. > :23:12.changing the routine, so the terrorists can't count on knowing
:23:12. > :23:16.what we will do. Isn't this all part of the fact that America can't
:23:16. > :23:19.move on. The cultural fear still exists? I don't think it is
:23:19. > :23:22.cultural fear, I think it is actually prudent capability to
:23:22. > :23:27.respond. What you don't want to have happen is what happened in
:23:27. > :23:32.Mumbai, in 2008, where there was an take and it took 60 hours to
:23:32. > :23:35.eliminate the attackers, we won't let that happen here. This whole,
:23:35. > :23:40.what Donald Rumsfeld was talking about, the war on terror, ramping
:23:40. > :23:44.up the idea, which then some people say, allowed the US Government to
:23:44. > :23:48.produce all sorts of measures, and many of which you were the author
:23:48. > :23:52.of, in order to promote different policies. Do you think this is all
:23:52. > :23:56.part and parcel of the same thing right now? I think the fear was
:23:56. > :23:59.generated by the act. The visual image of people jumping out of the
:23:59. > :24:02.World Trade Center because it is about to collapse and it is on fire.
:24:02. > :24:06.That wasn't generated by the US Government, that was the reality.
:24:06. > :24:11.But the accusation that is you ramped up by calling it war on
:24:11. > :24:17.terror, you use yourself use the words "war on terror". I used to
:24:17. > :24:21.say I would describe it as a war on the network of ideolgical Islamist
:24:21. > :24:26.extremists. I agree with Donald Rumsfeld, terror is a tactic, but
:24:26. > :24:33.it is a war. It was a global network determined to bring the
:24:33. > :24:38.kind of catastrophic loss to the United States that was preceded by
:24:38. > :24:41.prior war. Do you regret using the laj language of "war on terror"?
:24:41. > :24:45.think that became a shortland. The critical piece was to recognise it
:24:45. > :24:50.was a war, and it is war, not merely a police action. Because of
:24:50. > :24:55.the nature of that kind of language and so forth, what happened was
:24:55. > :24:58.that the Patriot Act, for one kicked in, you were an author of
:24:58. > :25:04.that, that allowed certain things to happen that were beyond the
:25:04. > :25:07.norms of American law. Phone tapping, lifting of immigrants and
:25:07. > :25:12.so on? We have always had phone tapping, the rules with respect to
:25:12. > :25:16.immigration didn't change. Easier to look at citizens' records and go
:25:16. > :25:20.into their homes? Not really, we took tactics used against drug
:25:21. > :25:24.dealers, and for the first time, said we will use it against
:25:24. > :25:29.terrorists. As between a marijuana dealer and a terrorist, it seems to
:25:29. > :25:34.me to be tougher on the terrorist than the marijuana dealer. They
:25:34. > :25:40.were controversial at the time, and people thought extraordinary. You
:25:40. > :25:44.might say they were extraordinary times? It was unanimously passed by
:25:44. > :25:47.the Senate. That in itself is an opinion of the Senate. Some would
:25:48. > :25:52.say actually, what it was it was a blight on America for having to do
:25:52. > :25:57.that. What you were essentially doing is infringing people's civil
:25:57. > :26:01.liberties? No-one has yet pointed to the case where the Patriot Act
:26:01. > :26:04.infringed on civil liberties. It allowed us to share information and
:26:05. > :26:08.use the same techniques we have used for years in criminal cases in
:26:08. > :26:12.terror cases. Now, of course, it has become part of the fabric of
:26:12. > :26:16.the legal system in America, where as I think, even you said it would
:26:16. > :26:21.only be a temporary measure. Do you think now it is permanent? I think
:26:21. > :26:27.it is permanent. What it did is adapt us to a technological era of
:26:27. > :26:34.the internet, which, frankly, the old law didn't allow us to address.
:26:34. > :26:37.But what the Government wants to do here is, as it were, export freedom
:26:37. > :26:40.abroad, you would presumably agree you are limiting people's freedom
:26:40. > :26:44.here? I wouldn't agree with that. I would say measures in the act which
:26:44. > :26:49.allowed us to share and analyse information, don't limit freedom.
:26:49. > :26:53.What they do is actually allow freedom, they allow the freedom to
:26:53. > :26:57.travel and the freedom to enjoy your life, which is basic.
:26:57. > :27:02.Christiane Amanporu, let's take you back to the recollections of that
:27:02. > :27:05.day on 9/11, what do you remember most clear? I was abroad, I was a
:27:05. > :27:09.foreign correspondent for CNN at the time, I heard about it as I was
:27:09. > :27:15.actually on a shoot in Sierra Leone, which was incredibly difficult to
:27:15. > :27:21.get to, it was in the full throws of war, there was - thros of war,
:27:21. > :27:26.there was no cellphones or airport functioning. We got trickles of
:27:26. > :27:30.information back from my producer that this had happened. CNN had to
:27:30. > :27:35.airlift me out to the story and to start covering T it was a visceral
:27:35. > :27:38.and shocking moment, I had covered wars for many years up until then.
:27:38. > :27:42.Never one that had happened in the United States and now getting ready
:27:43. > :27:47.to cover the fall-out. I must say listening to your reported piece, I
:27:47. > :27:50.do believe that it was absolutely the right decision to go to
:27:51. > :27:55.Afghanistan. A country had been attacked, it was in self-defence,
:27:55. > :28:00.more than that, the people of Afghanistan needed to be free of
:28:00. > :28:05.the Taliban and Al-Qaeda, they voted with their feet in support of
:28:05. > :28:09.being liberated. What about Iraq, that is a different story? I think
:28:09. > :28:19.Iraq was a major mistake. It had little to do with the Al-Qaeda
:28:19. > :28:25.problem. We took our eye of the ball. Instead of finishing the job
:28:25. > :28:30.in Afghanistan, we went to Iraq, found ourselves in a quagmire there,
:28:30. > :28:35.and then, of course, Afghanistan eventually turned into a quagmire
:28:35. > :28:39.again, so the United States is stuck in two losing wars now.
:28:39. > :28:43.do you say to Michael Chertoff's response that it had to be what it
:28:43. > :28:46.had to be, because had you to go where you had to go? Michael
:28:46. > :28:51.Chertoff and I agree on what the enemy was. I think the strategy we
:28:51. > :28:55.employed to deal with that enemy was a boneheaded strategy. I think
:28:55. > :28:59.we should have emphasised intelligence, and police work, and
:28:59. > :29:05.not gone charging in to Iraq. boneheaded solution? I don't think
:29:05. > :29:08.I would describe it as boneheaded. First of all, think you needed to
:29:08. > :29:11.go into Afghanistan. People forget there were laboratories that the
:29:11. > :29:15.9/11 Commission reported on, where they were experimenting with
:29:15. > :29:19.chemical weapons, you had to get rid of. That we had to develop and
:29:19. > :29:22.improve our intelligence system and we did. The proof is eliminating
:29:22. > :29:27.Osama Bin Laden, that was the fruit of all that work. I think Iraq is a
:29:27. > :29:31.kind of separate issue, but I think, with respect...You Accept that Iraq
:29:31. > :29:34.is much more controversial? It is controversial and distinct. But
:29:34. > :29:38.Afghanistan was very much at the core of what we had to do in
:29:38. > :29:43.response to that. Now looking back do you still defend Iraq? That is a
:29:43. > :29:49.long question. But it has to do with the legitimate concern that
:29:49. > :29:52.for years Saddam Hussein had defied UN mandates about getting rid of
:29:52. > :29:58.weapons, and hadn't fesed up to what he was doing. That had nothing
:29:58. > :30:02.to do with Afghanistan and Al-Qaeda. By going into Iraq we maximised the
:30:02. > :30:07.prospect that is we would fail in of a stkwapbs, because we took our
:30:07. > :30:09.eye - Afghanistan, because we took our eye off the ball. You lost your
:30:10. > :30:18.nephew, did you think the response in Iraq that proved to be so
:30:18. > :30:23.controversial, was danging to the both the hunt - danger to both the
:30:23. > :30:27.hunt and the capturing of Al-Qaeda. I was the only White House
:30:27. > :30:30.personnel to have lost somebody in 9/11, if anyone was critical of the
:30:30. > :30:36.policy that I was privvy to as a member of the President's senior
:30:36. > :30:39.staff was me, but I was not. I was proud of the work that Michael
:30:39. > :30:43.Chertoff of the work that he has done.
:30:43. > :30:46.And all those who served the President at the time have done. We
:30:46. > :30:50.have allowed ourselves to bring Iraq into a question about 9/11,
:30:50. > :30:55.which I don't believe has a proper place. I think Iraq is totally
:30:55. > :31:00.different than the response on the war on terror. I think we went into
:31:00. > :31:03.Iraq for valid and proper provocation, by the fact he didn't
:31:03. > :31:07.allow inspectors in. We allowed ourselves to be dragged into a
:31:07. > :31:11.position I don't think is valid. You report for ABC around the world.
:31:11. > :31:15.Looking at the response of different countries, and what you
:31:15. > :31:21.are hearing from people about, particularly about Iraq, and the
:31:21. > :31:25.way that Iraq was prosecuted, not only just in the invasion, but in
:31:25. > :31:29.the post-period. How did people respond? With due difference to
:31:29. > :31:35.those who have lost their loved - difference to those who have lost
:31:35. > :31:39.their loved ones, Iraq did take the eye off the main fight, Al-Qaeda.
:31:39. > :31:43.It did prolong the hunt for Osama Bin Laden. It caused people to look
:31:43. > :31:48.at America in a different and negative way. I think one of the
:31:48. > :31:52.great hopes now in this ten years after 9/11 is the Arab Spring.
:31:52. > :31:56.Because there you have all these mums, whom America asked where are
:31:56. > :32:03.the moderate mum, where are their voices, and Britain has asked that
:32:03. > :32:07.as well, there they are as well, repudiateing Bin Ladenism,
:32:07. > :32:10.repudiateing that philosophy of nihilism and hate, and asking for
:32:10. > :32:13.progress, democracy and freedom. That is what we should focus on.
:32:13. > :32:17.There is this debate about whether the Arab Spring is a direct result
:32:17. > :32:22.of Iraq, what is your view on that? It will be difficult to prove, we
:32:22. > :32:25.probably won't know for many years, first of all, with the outcome of
:32:25. > :32:29.the Arab Spring, then we will have to figure out what was the causive
:32:29. > :32:34.set of factors. What was important is trying to do what we can,
:32:34. > :32:39.recognising it is limited, to encourage those tendencies that do
:32:39. > :32:43.create an alternative narrative to extremism. But you have a situation
:32:43. > :32:47.where, yes, there appears to be democracy in Iraq, but the story is
:32:47. > :32:51.still very much unfold anything other Arab Spring countries?
:32:51. > :32:55.key point to keep in mind is where the United States is today. Our
:32:55. > :32:59.economy is in shambles, in good part because of the two wars and
:32:59. > :33:03.the response to 9/11. Is it a safer place? Is it a safer place, I think
:33:03. > :33:06.it is safer place. But it is not worth the price? No, that was not
:33:06. > :33:10.the price, it would be a safer place if we had not gone into Iraq.
:33:10. > :33:14.It was not necessary to go into Iraq to make it a safer place. It
:33:14. > :33:19.was better to do good intelligence and police work and go into
:33:19. > :33:23.Afghanistan and solve the problem there. But going into Iraq
:33:23. > :33:32.complicated matters, we took our eye off the ball in Afghanistan,
:33:32. > :33:35.and spent huge amounts of money, and bort wars have now gone sour.
:33:36. > :33:38.Let's say there is democracy in Iraq, what happens, and there is
:33:38. > :33:42.still Syria, which it is interesting to know what the
:33:42. > :33:46.Americans will do if anything beyond pushing for more sanctions.
:33:46. > :33:54.If the Arab Spring actually does not deliver this democracy that
:33:54. > :33:58.George Bush wanted to export, and actually is hostile to America, and
:33:58. > :34:02.they end up being dangerous, and lawless place, what can America do,
:34:02. > :34:07.will you have other foreign interventions? Won't know for some
:34:07. > :34:12.time how it turns out, whether we will get democratic states, or
:34:12. > :34:17.whether the military will come in and run another dictatorships or
:34:17. > :34:21.the countries will break apart. And we will have other platforms for
:34:21. > :34:26.terrorism. The Arab Spring generated itself not from America.
:34:26. > :34:29.It teaches us that we are in a world where technology and
:34:29. > :34:33.globalisation means that even problems on the other side of the
:34:33. > :34:37.globe can have an effect here in Times Square in New York city.
:34:37. > :34:42.were talking about the flowering of countries into democracy, here we
:34:42. > :34:48.have the greatest democracy in the world on its knees economically.
:34:48. > :34:52.Has this decade seen the waning of American power? We have been
:34:52. > :34:57.damaged in some place, I don't believe the execution of the war
:34:57. > :35:01.and keeping ourselves safe has been the reason we face the economic
:35:01. > :35:03.strive we face today, I don't believe that. There were other
:35:04. > :35:10.systemic problems that created the crisis we are in. Having said, that
:35:10. > :35:16.I believe that the United States is a great power. Have we lived up to
:35:16. > :35:20.all we can be? Did we make mistakes? Sure we did, we made
:35:20. > :35:24.mistakes not clearing Ground Zero and opening it up within 18 months
:35:24. > :35:29.of the attack. The fact it is still like it is hurts me.
:35:29. > :35:35.Do you think this is the end of American intervention?
:35:35. > :35:40.absolutely not. Look at what is happening in Libya. Grapblted the -
:35:40. > :35:47.granted for the first time in a NATO action the US didn't leave,
:35:47. > :35:49.France and Britain led. It seems to be working. We shouldn't dump all
:35:49. > :35:53.over the Arab Spring and think it will be a fundamentalist and anti-
:35:53. > :35:59.western thing, give it a chance to play itself out. You have, of
:35:59. > :36:04.course, the situation where the things that Bin Laden said, that
:36:04. > :36:08.started his antagonism still exist, America is in Saudi Arabia and
:36:08. > :36:12.Bahrain, is it time to recalibrate what America does abroad? The fact
:36:12. > :36:17.is these people have risen up, not because of Iraq, but because they
:36:17. > :36:21.have got and lived under the fist of dictatorship. Dictators who the
:36:21. > :36:24.United States supported. Now foreign policy of the United States
:36:24. > :36:28.will be tied to the street in that part of the world. Would you like
:36:28. > :36:33.to see America taking a lead role, for example, against Assad and
:36:33. > :36:37.Syria, is that America still to be the world's policeman? I don't want
:36:38. > :36:40.to see the United States being the world's policeman, I believe in
:36:40. > :36:43.self-determination. People in individual countries should figure
:36:43. > :36:47.out for themselves what kind of political system they want to have,
:36:48. > :36:52.and the United States should keep its nose out of people's business F
:36:52. > :36:58.it goes in there, especially with ground forces, with social
:36:58. > :37:01.engineering t will end up in the same situation as Iraq and
:37:02. > :37:06.Afghanistan, which is disastrous, economically and stragically.
:37:06. > :37:09.After 9/11, there was the feeling that in America the culture would
:37:10. > :37:13.change forever. New York itself was physically scarred, and Americans
:37:13. > :37:23.traumatised. Now with rebuilding well under way at Ground Zero, what
:37:23. > :37:45.
:37:45. > :37:53.does the new New York tell us about There was this gash in the skyline.
:37:53. > :37:57.The things that we saw is given, it is permanent.
:37:57. > :38:05.The Twin Towers stood for Americans' hope and optimisim and
:38:05. > :38:09.innocence in materialism, if you like. And that I think has gone.
:38:09. > :38:15.Today, a new monumental structure is rising out of the void, and no
:38:15. > :38:19.building in America's history has been so feted with expectation or
:38:19. > :38:26.had such a tort rouse birth. No-one knew if it was hallowed ground or a
:38:26. > :38:29.piece of real estate, whether to act out of emotion or economic
:38:29. > :38:36.necessity. There was an international architecture
:38:36. > :38:41.competition to produce a plan for the site.
:38:41. > :38:45.The freedom tower won. Lined up with the Statue of Liberty and
:38:46. > :38:49.encirleled with other towers, with a memorial at its heart.
:38:49. > :38:55.Politicians and planners argued over the designs and eye vently the
:38:56. > :38:59.master plan was parceled out to the different architects. His Freedom
:39:00. > :39:08.Tower is now called more politically One World Trade. It is
:39:08. > :39:13.still rising and David Childs is the architect. We are standing in
:39:13. > :39:20.World Trade, looking through the mist at One World Trade. No
:39:20. > :39:24.building has had such a torturous birth. Some people thought don't
:39:24. > :39:29.build anything, run ahead and get something build. The emotions of
:39:29. > :39:34.those who lost family on the site, all of that was real and
:39:34. > :39:37.appropriate and we needed to recognise how difficult it was
:39:37. > :39:42.going to be before we started. We also knew that at the end of the
:39:43. > :39:47.day we didn't want to show this as a tortured building. We wanted it
:39:47. > :39:57.to be simple and look right. Without anybody knowing the
:39:57. > :40:02.
:40:02. > :40:06.difficulties. In the aftermath of the attacks,
:40:06. > :40:10.there was the idea that nothing would be the same again in cultural
:40:10. > :40:13.society, and things would change for the better. The heroism of the
:40:13. > :40:17.rescue workers inspired a new wave of volunteerism all over the
:40:17. > :40:20.country, and attendance at religious services was up. The idea
:40:20. > :40:25.too was people would think more deeply about the meaning of life,
:40:25. > :40:30.that would be reflected it television, literature and film.
:40:30. > :40:36.America had been jolted out of its 90s babble of materialism and
:40:36. > :40:41.escapism, or had it? America has Attention Deficit Disorder, and has
:40:41. > :40:46.for years. It has no memory, and so we bounce back quickly. In some
:40:46. > :40:50.ways, I think that's built into our character. It has a lot to do with
:40:50. > :40:59.the establishment of the frontier, the constantly pushing west. I
:40:59. > :41:04.think in some ways it is a laudible part of the American ethos. And in
:41:04. > :41:09.another way, we don't often always learn from our mistakes. Author,
:41:09. > :41:13.Jay McInerney, was one of the first writers to respond to 9/11. His
:41:13. > :41:17.novel hit the spot of togetherness after the attacks, his main
:41:17. > :41:21.characters fall in love after they neat volunteering. We got into the
:41:21. > :41:26.habit of actually speaking to each other on the sidewalk. We got in
:41:26. > :41:30.the habit of looking at the people who were riding in the elevator or
:41:30. > :41:35.the subway with us. Because those people might be the last people we
:41:35. > :41:41.see. Those people might be the people who rescue us. Those people
:41:41. > :41:45.might be the people we rescue, or they might be carrying a bottle of
:41:45. > :41:52.anthrax. We are more ware of our fellow citizens. It is no longer
:41:52. > :41:57.uncool to help a stranger with directions, or in distress. I think
:41:57. > :42:05.that my characters, looking back, would find that their lives weren't
:42:05. > :42:10.as dras heically changed by the e- drasticically changed by the events
:42:10. > :42:14.of 11th September. As the tenth anniversary approach, everyone is
:42:14. > :42:20.trying to make sense of it and whether culture has changed? I was
:42:20. > :42:23.reading my diary from that time. It is remarkable how in those weeks
:42:24. > :42:31.you thought you would never think of anything materialistic again.
:42:31. > :42:35.How could we be in a culture that cared about buying Prada clothes
:42:35. > :42:38.and spending money on expensive restaurants. There was a period
:42:38. > :42:42.that was obscene, and now everything has gone back to what it
:42:42. > :42:46.was. In some ways, something has been lost too. There was a
:42:46. > :42:50.remarkable time in the culture of 9/11 afterwards. A sense that
:42:50. > :43:00.America had glimpseed a self that it wanted to be, and reaching out
:43:00. > :43:05.to it. There was a real moment that was lost.
:43:05. > :43:10.That loss of unity was highlighted last year in protests over another
:43:10. > :43:20.controversial building project. The proposal to build an Islamic
:43:20. > :43:21.
:43:21. > :43:26.community centre two blocks away from Ground Zero.
:43:26. > :43:30.This old coat factory remains as it is while the wranglings continue.
:43:31. > :43:34.Muslims here say life has got harder for them here in America.
:43:34. > :43:39.And the research shows that those who think favourably about Islam
:43:39. > :43:42.has gone down and down again. big question emerging from 9/11 and
:43:42. > :43:47.last year's controversy about the proposed community centre, which I
:43:47. > :43:52.had proposed and my dreamor the last 20 years s how will - dreams
:43:52. > :43:56.for the last 20 years, is how will America engage with Islam. This is
:43:56. > :44:00.the big and important question. This question has to be addressed.
:44:00. > :44:05.Because unless it is addressed and until it is addressed
:44:05. > :44:12.satisfactorily, it can continue to be a sore that can contribute to
:44:12. > :44:19.social infection. The question of what to do with the memorial plazza
:44:19. > :44:24.site at Ground Zero became all about healing those wounds. The
:44:24. > :44:29.bases of the towers will have the names of all the victims of all
:44:29. > :44:34.faiths. The park will eventually open on to the street. I wanted to
:44:34. > :44:39.reflect how public spaces like union quair square and Washington
:44:39. > :44:44.square acted as - union square and Washington Square acted as places
:44:44. > :44:50.that brought us together. The civic quality of these place that is
:44:50. > :44:53.acted as a binder, they held us together and allowed us to act as a
:44:53. > :44:57.community. These place also allow people to come here, even if they
:44:57. > :45:03.come alone, they will not be alone. They will walk and sit amongst the
:45:03. > :45:07.trees in the landscape designed by Peter Walker. Do you think the fact
:45:08. > :45:13.of it being here will move America forward? The people who began this,
:45:13. > :45:18.the memorial was one part, a very important part. The rebirth of this
:45:18. > :45:22.particular district was another. Both of those things are going to
:45:22. > :45:32.show Americans that we can do this thing, we can recover, we can go on.
:45:32. > :45:38.
:45:38. > :45:43.I think that we're part of that. I feel good about that.
:45:43. > :45:46.Joining me now is Suzanne Vega, who has written songs inspired by 9/11.
:45:46. > :45:50.The writer, Fran Leibowitz, journalist, Carl Bernstein, and
:45:50. > :45:54.Rehan Salam, columnist with the Daily Beast. First, let's pick up
:45:54. > :45:58.on the idea of divisions in America, is there an unease in America about
:45:58. > :46:01.the war on terror still being prosecuted, the way America is
:46:01. > :46:06.approaching the future and foreign policy? I think there absolutely is
:46:06. > :46:11.a very deep divide, that divide has only expanded over the last decade.
:46:11. > :46:14.I think it is to be expected, in this an affluent and stable society,
:46:14. > :46:17.on one buffeted by economic turmoil, it is natural for such a society to
:46:18. > :46:23.have these divisions, and what is unnatural is for those divisions to
:46:23. > :46:27.go away. That tends to happen in time war and crisis. But this was a
:46:27. > :46:31.weird hybrid moment. A cultural divide about what has happened in
:46:31. > :46:36.the country? Yes, there is a tremendous cultural divide in this
:46:36. > :46:44.country, it is worse by the second. Part of it is real, and part of it
:46:44. > :46:48.is constantly incited by the media. In what way? By asking, "do you
:46:48. > :46:52.think there is a cultural divide"! An approach to how the country
:46:52. > :46:57.should lael itself, for example we had the whole situation whether -
:46:57. > :47:03.heal itself, for example we had the whole situation about whether Islam
:47:03. > :47:07.is welcome in this country? believe I can be wrong, but I'm not,
:47:07. > :47:10.until September 2001, most Americans had hardly heard of Islam,
:47:10. > :47:13.I believe that to be true. I don't think there was a particular
:47:13. > :47:19.prejudice against Muslims, there was a total unawareness of the
:47:19. > :47:23.religion itself. This is not Europe. We have a less, the good stuff
:47:23. > :47:26.about America and New York, if you had said to someone before 11th
:47:26. > :47:29.September there are people from this Muslim country, the first
:47:29. > :47:34.thing they would have said, what do they eat?
:47:34. > :47:40.What do you think has changed in the decade since 9/11? I think we
:47:40. > :47:45.make a big mistake to use 9/11 as an example of a great moment of
:47:45. > :47:49.change in America. I think all things we are talking about,
:47:49. > :47:54.particularly the political divide predate 9/11. What 9/11 did,
:47:54. > :47:58.politically, it enabled people who had agendas that were not perhaps
:47:58. > :48:02.in the national interest, to pursue those agendas whether they had to
:48:02. > :48:07.do with suspending some civil liberties, whether to do with
:48:07. > :48:14.invading Iraq, which had nothing to do with the take itself. Whether
:48:14. > :48:17.they had other jingositic, or perhaps demogogic, or perhaps
:48:17. > :48:24.political objectives. But we have had this divide for a long time.
:48:24. > :48:28.Both between right and left, between Conservative and Liberal,
:48:28. > :48:33.Republican and Democrat. 9/11 might have exacerbated, but also this
:48:34. > :48:38.particular city, New York, had a reel sillence. If this attack had
:48:38. > :48:45.happened - resilience. If this attack had happened anywhere else
:48:45. > :48:52.we would be talking different. This city came back in the way the
:48:52. > :48:57.particular civic Compac was not riven, it came back together. That
:48:57. > :49:01.was the most important aspect in terms of those who live here. Let's
:49:01. > :49:05.not think, for instance, let me take a second here, I would say the
:49:05. > :49:08.great moment of change in this country is the abolition of the
:49:08. > :49:13.draft in the United States. Because we would never have gone into this
:49:13. > :49:18.war in Iraq if we had a draft. Absolutely. Those members of
:49:18. > :49:21.Congress would never have voted to go to war in Iraq. Hillary Clinton,
:49:21. > :49:25.if Chelsea Clinton was going to war in Iraq, would Hillary Clinton as a
:49:25. > :49:29.senator have voted to go to war in Iraq, I don't think any of them
:49:29. > :49:33.would have. You need to look at what happened first, this event
:49:33. > :49:37.came in the midst of something already going on. And now, yes,
:49:37. > :49:42.there are some ripples, but is our economic situation the result of
:49:42. > :49:47.9/11? No, it is the result of perhaps people who wanted to
:49:47. > :49:51.capitalise on it. Looking back to 9/11, how do you think people want
:49:52. > :49:58.to remember it? How do you remember it, and what impact has it had on
:49:58. > :50:01.you, you have sung about it? Yes, well I think there is a collective
:50:01. > :50:06.post-traumatic stress disorder we all have, especially in New York
:50:06. > :50:09.city. Any time anything happens, a water main breaks, or an earthquake
:50:09. > :50:13.that happened two weeks ago, which is very unusual, the first thing
:50:13. > :50:17.you think is it is happening again. One thing about 9/11, you have
:50:17. > :50:22.talked about healing and how can America go forward and heal, and I
:50:22. > :50:26.think that any time you suffer from a trauma like, that the way to heal
:50:26. > :50:33.is to get involved with something other than yourself. I agree with
:50:33. > :50:37.Fran, when Fran said most people were not very aware of Muslim
:50:37. > :50:40.culture. What I sense from the younger generation coming up is a
:50:40. > :50:44.wish to dialogue, a kind of curiosity about the world outside
:50:44. > :50:48.of America. I think that's one of the good things that has come out
:50:48. > :50:51.of 9/11, if you can say anything good has come from it. Do you think
:50:51. > :50:56.we should be rembering, particularly this weekend, this
:50:56. > :50:59.anniversary and obviously with the opening of the memorial garden is a
:50:59. > :51:08.special moment? It depend ones the person whether you think. That ten
:51:08. > :51:11.years such a long time, in anyone's life, even someone as old as me.
:51:11. > :51:19.When you say what has changed in ten years, everything has. In any
:51:19. > :51:23.ten year period it is the same. If this had been done a year after it
:51:23. > :51:26.was more connected. Ten years a long time. The only reason I
:51:26. > :51:30.believe there is a concentration on ten years, is how long it takes to
:51:30. > :51:36.do anything in York. Why are those buildings not built, they should
:51:36. > :51:41.have been built in a year. What about the idea that the memorial
:51:41. > :51:46.plas za will be a central thing for New Yorkers. It is such a focus for
:51:46. > :51:50.tourist, people will want to come there as a particular place of
:51:50. > :51:59.homage. Tourists want to come here in Times Square. You shouldn't look
:51:59. > :52:05.at what they want. They come here. The people with a personal
:52:05. > :52:11.connection with those who died is very meaningful, like the have the
:52:11. > :52:16.nam memorial - Vietnam memorial. The vet mam memorial is much bigger
:52:16. > :52:23.with many more names, it is an intense connection to those who
:52:23. > :52:33.have relatives there. It is more like envisioning a grave. If your
:52:33. > :52:34.
:52:34. > :52:39.son or daughter died in 9/11 you go to the Trade Centre, it means more
:52:39. > :52:43.things and different to you than us as tourists. In ten years, the
:52:43. > :52:48.composition of New York City's population has changed markedly.
:52:48. > :52:53.Hundreds of thousands of native- born Americans have left, there are
:52:53. > :52:56.hundreds and thousands of immigrants arrived, many of Muslim
:52:56. > :53:01.origin and south Asian origin. It has changed the pace of life. While
:53:01. > :53:04.there has been a rice of anti- Muslim sentiment in the country
:53:04. > :53:08.itself, in New York City this is a country that has changed the way we
:53:08. > :53:11.live and related to each other. you think you relate to each other
:53:11. > :53:15.better than you did before, for example, you would suggest there
:53:15. > :53:20.has been a change for the better for that, Suzanne Vega, that people
:53:20. > :53:24.do reach out to people more? Not in the streets or subway. We're New
:53:24. > :53:29.Yorkers, we don't want you to talk to us, we don't care who you are.
:53:29. > :53:32.Do you think there is a return to the comfort zone? I was talking
:53:32. > :53:38.more abstractly. Part of what you see happening in New York, New York
:53:38. > :53:42.is a city where you have fabulously wealthy people, and hard scrabble
:53:42. > :53:47.immigrants, they don't necessary engage in a lot of social
:53:47. > :53:52.intercourse. New York is 30% non- Hispanic white. Think about New
:53:52. > :53:59.York's eleets, and that population and those who dominate the media
:53:59. > :54:04.landscape, it is more than 30% non- Hispanic white. These people are
:54:04. > :54:09.making the city work are different. There is an organic unity of people
:54:09. > :54:14.working together. What a lot of elites, and non-Hispanic white
:54:14. > :54:21.elites don't understand, that these other people are not just victims
:54:21. > :54:29.but take an active role. It is different from the wider America?
:54:29. > :54:33.It is, but the wider America has gone in that, there is a shift in
:54:33. > :54:37.Latino population. Many whites now are keenly aware of the fact that
:54:37. > :54:41.demo graphically speaking they no longer define the American centre
:54:41. > :54:44.as they once did. That is a huge part of what is changing our
:54:44. > :54:48.politics now. When you were just talking about the site and the idea
:54:48. > :54:51.that for a long time people were arguing about whether it was
:54:51. > :54:56.hallowed ground or real estate, there is a natural assumption that
:54:56. > :55:02.New York is about commerce, even in the middle of Ground Zero? I think
:55:02. > :55:07.again we are oversimplifying too many things. It has to do with a
:55:07. > :55:10.very complicated city in a very complicated country. Our essence in
:55:10. > :55:13.this city is about rubbing elbows, that is the history of this city.
:55:13. > :55:20.It is not just about money. It is about a huge number of people, the
:55:20. > :55:25.biggest city in the country, who for a century-and-a-half, have had
:55:26. > :55:31.this collective friction, and at the same time, this incredible
:55:31. > :55:36.ability to move forward together. That remains, unbroken by this
:55:36. > :55:41.event. Unbroken by this immigration that has occurred. We absorb this.
:55:41. > :55:45.Yes, there is an awful lot of intellectual debate. We can have a
:55:45. > :55:49.lot of these panels. But the fact is you go out there on Times Square
:55:49. > :55:53.when we leave here, and everybody will be having a pretty good time
:55:53. > :55:58.on the street. If this had happened in another city in America, I'm not
:55:58. > :56:03.sure that would be the case. I don't think that we can attribute
:56:03. > :56:08.all of these things to saying oh well 9/11 has changed us. Yes there
:56:08. > :56:13.is a change in the way a lot of people look at Muslims in our
:56:13. > :56:16.country, because they are more aware, and there is a relationship
:56:16. > :56:22.formed in some people's minds. There is political realities that
:56:22. > :56:26.came out of it, that excesser baited all kinds of things that
:56:26. > :56:30.were - exacerbated all kinds of things that were going on already.
:56:31. > :56:33.But in terms of it being an historic event that absolutely
:56:33. > :56:37.changed the United States of America, I don't think it was.
:56:37. > :56:41.There was a psychological impact on the people of the city? I feel that.
:56:41. > :56:46.Whether it will last over a long period of time, whether in 100
:56:46. > :56:50.years we will feel it in the same way, time will tell. You have
:56:50. > :56:56.things like Gettysburg that resonates still with people, don't
:56:56. > :57:00.you think this event will resonate still, because America was thought
:57:00. > :57:04.impregnable and now there is an insecurity? I believe it will
:57:04. > :57:08.resonate and for a long time. The United States role in the world has
:57:08. > :57:12.changed, we are not the economic power we were in the world that we
:57:12. > :57:16.were at that time. Do you think that is a as a result of 9/11?
:57:16. > :57:20.think it is one of the things, I think that 9/11 definitely impacted
:57:20. > :57:27.that, yes, I think so. I think it is part of the fabric. In terms of
:57:27. > :57:30.money wasted on a war. That's true. In Iraq perhaps. And the feeling of
:57:30. > :57:34.insecurity. Do you think there is a vulnerability about America that
:57:34. > :57:40.didn't exist before, maybe it was ramped up but it did exist before?
:57:40. > :57:45.I think that is one of the things. Sure, again, if 3,000 pem are
:57:45. > :57:48.killed there is going - people are killed there is going to be that
:57:48. > :57:53.feeling. Look at Oklahoma City, and look at the impact of the bombing
:57:53. > :57:57.on that town. It defines that town today. I would not say that 9/11
:57:57. > :58:01.defines us. Of course not. Do you think that America is both more
:58:01. > :58:05.vulnerable and a lesser player in the world now? Because of 9/11?
:58:05. > :58:10.because of the decade subsequently? I agree with Carl on this inset,
:58:10. > :58:13.there is so many other factors. I also, it is true that as a New
:58:13. > :58:16.Yorker when that earthquake happened, I was standing at my
:58:16. > :58:20.kitchen sink and it shook, and I thought there was a bomb in the
:58:20. > :58:24.subway, because my building is over it. I would never have thought that
:58:24. > :58:29.before, that there was a bomb, it would never occur to me. You have
:58:29. > :58:33.that feeling. But Oklahoma City, the difference is, before the
:58:33. > :58:39.bombing of Oklahoma City, it was Oklahoma City, it still is, we were
:58:39. > :58:44.New York before, we still are. I mean, I think that high
:58:44. > :58:48.consciousness of ethnicity and race and religion is bad. I don't think
:58:48. > :58:53.it is good. I think that it has been heightened by that. But one
:58:53. > :58:58.thing about New York, Carl is right, it is not that New Yorkers are
:58:58. > :59:01.delightful and they love each other, it is that they tolerate each other.
:59:01. > :59:05.For toleration we will leave you now in New York. We leave you with
:59:05. > :59:15.images from that day, ten years ago, that followed on from there.
:59:15. > :59:15.
:59:15. > :00:25.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 70 seconds
:00:26. > :00:30.Really quite a mild night out there. Warm start to the weekend. But a
:00:30. > :00:34.grey and damp start for many of us. Writer skies in the east, late
:00:34. > :00:38.morning sunshine here. This band of rain works across Wales and South-
:00:38. > :00:42.West England and spreading across the Midlands into north-east
:00:42. > :00:46.England into the afternoon. North West England brightens up. The
:00:46. > :00:51.cloud and rain drifting towards East Anglia, before the rain
:00:51. > :00:56.arrives, temperatures could reach 22-23. The rain arriving to the
:00:56. > :01:00.south-east for the late afternoon. After a dreary start the south west
:01:00. > :01:04.brightens up, a dry end to the day. A few blustery showers drifting in.
:01:04. > :01:07.The breeze will be strengthening throughout the day. Pretty windy
:01:07. > :01:11.across north and west Wales, there will be spells of sunshine.
:01:11. > :01:15.Throughout the day there will be sunshine. Showers in Northern
:01:15. > :01:17.Ireland, here the winds getting strong through the afternoon and
:01:17. > :01:22.evening. Particularly blustery across North West Scotland late in
:01:22. > :01:25.the day. A grey start for most of Scotland, some places will see
:01:25. > :01:30.afternoon sunshine. The wind picking up during Saturday evening.
:01:30. > :01:33.A blustery day on Sunday. Some sun yi spells, showers in most places,
:01:33. > :01:36.especially wet in western Scotland and Northern Ireland. The winds
:01:36. > :01:39.will strengthen further on Sunday evening and into Monday. They are a