:00:08. > :00:12.The crisis with the euro is as bad as ever it has been and tomorrow
:00:12. > :00:16.may come the critical intervention which could save it or sink it.
:00:16. > :00:18.As Europe's leaders get ready to teleconference their way out of the
:00:18. > :00:24.conference, which button will they press.
:00:24. > :00:27.I will be asking the German Government what they intend to do.
:00:27. > :00:32.Trades unionists are underwhelmed by the Labour leader. I do believe
:00:32. > :00:36.it was a mistake for strikes to happen last summer. Shame!
:00:36. > :00:41.continue to believe that. What is the state of the Labour
:00:41. > :00:44.Party's relationship with its pay masters.
:00:44. > :00:51.As Palestine appeals to the world for place at the UN what are the
:00:51. > :00:54.chances of success? Can scientific fact ever inspire
:00:54. > :01:04.the same affection as religious stories. Richard Dawkins goes myth
:01:04. > :01:08.
:01:08. > :01:12.Good evening, the convention in news programmes is that rereport
:01:12. > :01:16.what's happened, but these are unconventional turbulent times, and
:01:16. > :01:20.frankly, we don't know what is going on. Something is up, though,
:01:20. > :01:25.with the euro. Rumours have swirled all day about the Greeks defaulting
:01:26. > :01:28.on their debt, big French banks in trouble, and the Germans
:01:28. > :01:32.manoeuvring towards some sort of operation that might save the
:01:32. > :01:37.currency, for now, at least. Here is the best guess of our economics
:01:37. > :01:41.editor, Paul Mason. There is rumours because the French started
:01:41. > :01:44.the day by announcing, briefing journalists, that they were going
:01:44. > :01:49.to make a big announcement about the future of Greece. Then they
:01:49. > :01:52.didn't. There will be something tomorrow. But there has been
:01:52. > :01:56.frantic private diplomacy all day between Greece, France, the USA,
:01:56. > :02:00.President Obama coming out and saying in public, Europe get your
:02:00. > :02:08.act together, you are pulling the rest of the economy down. It has
:02:08. > :02:13.all been occasion. Greece needs 8 billion euros, from the big bailout
:02:13. > :02:17.last May. The Europeans and the IMF decided it say unless you do X, Y
:02:17. > :02:22.and Z, you are not getting anything. This created the stand-off, going
:02:22. > :02:27.on for the last couple of week. It is coming to head, we have two days
:02:27. > :02:30.to do the deal. Meanwhile, bank shares are tumbling, specific EU
:02:30. > :02:35.banks looking pretty precarious. Tomorrow, they have decided there
:02:35. > :02:44.will be a teleconference between Merkel, Sarkozy and the Greek Prime
:02:44. > :02:52.Minister, Andropov, and boy, would all us economics - economists like
:02:52. > :03:00.to be in that teleconference. won't be press 1 for default and 2
:03:00. > :03:05.for austerity, there aren't many options beyond that. The French,
:03:05. > :03:13.Greek and German leaders will speak tomorrow knowing they are running
:03:13. > :03:20.out of time. Today, Germany's leader met Finland's leader to sort
:03:20. > :03:26.out a little local difficulty. The Fins are so worried Greece will
:03:26. > :03:31.default on the bailout, they want security from Europe. Just one part
:03:31. > :03:34.of the malaise of back tracking and indecision. To the wider world,
:03:34. > :03:44.Angela Merkel's message was, stop talking about a Greek default. She,
:03:44. > :03:46.of course, is worried about nothing else.
:03:46. > :03:49.TRANSLATION: We have to always consider that everything we do is
:03:49. > :03:53.controlled. That we know the consequences. Because otherwise we
:03:54. > :04:02.can very quickly have a situation in the eurozone that we do not want,
:04:02. > :04:08.and which will have very difficult consequences for all of us.
:04:08. > :04:13.Today, in Greece, the taxi drivers went on strike, and marched, over
:04:13. > :04:20.the weekend there have been riots. Meanwhile, the Prime Minister, here
:04:20. > :04:22.pictured on a coffin, had to slap down an emergency 2 billion euro
:04:22. > :04:29.property tax, because EU negotiators threatened to walk away
:04:29. > :04:35.from talks on the next round of the bailout. For Greek budget deficit,
:04:35. > :04:42.it is on track to be 9.5% of GDP, worse than expected and worse than
:04:42. > :04:46.demand by the bailout deal, because Greek GDP is shrinking, but Greece
:04:46. > :04:51.needs 8 billion euros this week, the latest tranche of bailout money
:04:51. > :04:54.that is being held, without it, it only has money to pay its bills
:04:54. > :04:59.until October. Some believe the euro won't be out of crisis, until
:04:59. > :05:04.Greece is out of the euro. I think it is inevitable that Greece will,
:05:04. > :05:07.in due course, be ejected, or choose itself, to leave. You can't
:05:07. > :05:11.have a more coherent long-term solution for the eurozone until you
:05:11. > :05:16.have bitten that bullet and got the Greeks to leave. In July the idea
:05:16. > :05:20.of a Marshall Plan for Greece, modelled on USA to Europe in 1948
:05:20. > :05:23.made it so far as a draft EU declaration, the Brits got it
:05:23. > :05:27.removed. But now, senior German figures are behind the scenes,
:05:27. > :05:32.urging Germany to do just that. Rebuild the Greek economy, with
:05:32. > :05:36.German money. But it is not flavour of the month.
:05:36. > :05:41.The problem is, that once you come up with the big master plan to
:05:41. > :05:45.solve the crisis once and for all, the other countries, on the
:05:45. > :05:49.periphery, the Spain, the Italys or the Irelands, would have an
:05:49. > :05:56.incentive to just rely on French- German leadership and relax their
:05:56. > :06:01.own efforts to actually shape up. As Greece slides, Italy is drawn
:06:01. > :06:05.into the zone of danger. Italy and Spain are relying on the European
:06:05. > :06:10.Central Bank, funded by Germany, to keep their own debts managable. But
:06:10. > :06:16.when Italy had to raise a new loan today t came at the highest-ever
:06:16. > :06:20.interest rate in the Euro-era, 5.6 per cent. Even at that price, China
:06:20. > :06:24.declared it would start buying Italian debt, though not, one
:06:24. > :06:28.suspects, out of solidarity with the Italian Communists. The euro
:06:28. > :06:31.got a decent lift out of this news that China was going to come in and
:06:31. > :06:35.buy Italian debt. Or there is suspicion that is it will, it was
:06:35. > :06:38.so short lived. I think really the market is now at the point where it
:06:38. > :06:43.is looking beyond what can we do to help Italy and Greece, to really
:06:43. > :06:47.the next chapter in this whole huge sorry mess.
:06:47. > :06:51.One idea gaining traction is for Brussels to create a new fund, to
:06:51. > :06:56.move tax-payers' money from the north to the south, modelled on the
:06:56. > :06:58.EU structural fund, but for euro countries only. Here is the
:06:58. > :07:01.advantage? Many of the schemes people have talked about in
:07:01. > :07:04.financial markets, seem to me to be non-starters, precisely because
:07:04. > :07:07.they are associated with the Germans taking on numbers in the
:07:07. > :07:12.thrillions of additional debt. The kind of thing which I'm talking
:07:12. > :07:15.about is numbers in the low billions of annual transfers. So
:07:15. > :07:19.I'm talking about switching mind set to thinking we can find a
:07:19. > :07:23.solution that works within the find of framework we already have,
:07:23. > :07:26.taking those things a little bit further. But that, of course s a
:07:26. > :07:31.long-term commitment, rather than a sticking plaster solution where you
:07:31. > :07:37.pretend the problem will all go away by the day after tomorrow.
:07:37. > :07:41.It But, time is important. Tomorrow's big teleconference means
:07:41. > :07:44.we are moving beyond the summit stage to crunch time for Greece.
:07:44. > :07:50.Paul s there any evidence that European politicians are about to
:07:50. > :07:53.have a wholesale change of mind? they do it will be a pretty big one.
:07:53. > :07:59.They have philosophically nailed their colours to the mast. That the
:07:59. > :08:04.euro, equals the EU, equals the internal market. Mr Romano, last
:08:04. > :08:14.week, made the claim, that without the euro, the internal market would
:08:14. > :08:18.fall apart in a crisis. It is a long way from that in seeing one
:08:18. > :08:22.member leave. You have started to see in Germany opposition
:08:22. > :08:25.politicians talking about default, and talking about it. You have also
:08:25. > :08:29.started seeing figures in the background of German politics
:08:29. > :08:34.saying we could do this Marshall Plan, we could draw a line under
:08:34. > :08:39.our post-war history by putting our hands in our pockets and saving
:08:39. > :08:44.Greece T will come down what-to- what the German people tell their
:08:44. > :08:47.elected - it will come down to what the German people tell their
:08:47. > :08:53.elected leaders to do. From all this back room activity, I can tell
:08:53. > :08:57.it is not far away. Here to chew this over from Germany, is Peter
:08:57. > :09:01.Altmaier, Chief Whip of Angela Merkel's Christian Democrats,
:09:02. > :09:08.getting German MPs to vote for bailout. Joining us also is a Greek
:09:08. > :09:12.journalist, and here in the studio, Terry Smith, chief executive of the
:09:12. > :09:16.currency brokers. Mr Altmaier, do you know what will happen tomorrow?
:09:16. > :09:21.Nobody knows what will happen tomorrow. We have a clear idea
:09:21. > :09:24.today what we have to do. The world economy is in a critical condition.
:09:24. > :09:31.It means we have a certain responsibility to be very firm and
:09:31. > :09:36.very clear about what we intend to do, and our aim is clear, we want
:09:36. > :09:41.to preserve the euro, we want to avoid recession on a worldwide
:09:41. > :09:46.scale. That means we want to keep Greece inside the euro, and we want
:09:46. > :09:51.to help Greece overcoming the crisis. But, of course, the Finance
:09:51. > :09:57.Minister, said, if necessary, Greece should be allowed to just go
:09:57. > :10:05.bust? The Chancellor made it clear that public talking about default
:10:05. > :10:12.is not a good idea. We have a mission under way in Greece, we
:10:12. > :10:16.will see whether Greece will make the required efforts to achieve
:10:16. > :10:20.more stability culture in a sustainable way, and we are
:10:20. > :10:24.prepared to help Greece overcoming the problems. We still think the
:10:24. > :10:30.best solution would be to avoid default. But this is something, of
:10:30. > :10:36.course, that has to be discussed and not publicly, but if the mind
:10:36. > :10:41.is clear to overcome the crisis. How do you think this will solve
:10:41. > :10:44.itself? I think Greece will leave the euro and it is going to default.
:10:44. > :10:49.I don't know what will happen in the meantime, but it is detail.
:10:49. > :10:53.Greece is running a higher deficit than planned, that will continue,
:10:53. > :10:58.nothing practical can be done to prevent that. The analogy I would
:10:58. > :11:01.give you is Germany is like a well- to-do parent that has allowed her
:11:01. > :11:06.child out with a platinum credit card, drawn on their account. And
:11:06. > :11:10.they will bankrupt themselves in the efforts to save Greece f they
:11:10. > :11:14.have the political will to do so. As a representative of this
:11:14. > :11:19.irresponsible child, why should the Germans keep on bailing out Greece?
:11:19. > :11:24.Well, first of all, I'm not a representative of the Greek
:11:24. > :11:29.Government. But, the problem is, I think, we are fixating a little too
:11:29. > :11:34.much on Greece. I understand that of course it captures the
:11:34. > :11:37.imagination and our imagination as journalists, but what we are not
:11:37. > :11:41.talking about is the other peripheral and not so peripheral
:11:41. > :11:44.countries like Italy that are in a lot of trouble. We are not talking
:11:44. > :11:47.right now about the structural and design problems with the common
:11:47. > :11:53.currency, and what we are not talking about is why we are doing
:11:53. > :11:57.all of this, and why we are doing all of this, is across the
:11:57. > :12:02.continent banks are undercapitalised, it is banks going
:12:02. > :12:09.bust first if Greece defaults. you think Greece is a special case?
:12:09. > :12:13.Yes, Greece is certainly a special case, in so far as the economic
:12:13. > :12:18.problems of Greece are much worse than in all the other countries
:12:19. > :12:23.concerned. There are problems with the banks, certainly in other
:12:23. > :12:27.European countries as well. But mistakes have been made in Greece
:12:27. > :12:34.over a number of years, and this has to be repaid, it cannot be
:12:34. > :12:39.repaid in a short time, but what we need is a clear cut commitment from
:12:39. > :12:44.the Greek Government to change things profoundly, to organise a
:12:44. > :12:50.better administration, to privatise public enterprises. This is a very
:12:50. > :12:55.important gesture, we know it is not easy to do. But the monitoring
:12:55. > :13:00.Troika from the EU will report on this, and this will be the basis
:13:00. > :13:04.for the further decisions on how to proceed with the rescue package for
:13:04. > :13:13.Greece. Perhaps the leopard will change its spots, if it were going
:13:13. > :13:16.to do so, would we not have seen some evidence by now? Well, I'm, of
:13:16. > :13:22.course, not a representative of the Government, and I'm just the Chief
:13:22. > :13:27.Whip in parliament. My impression is that we are in a critical stage
:13:27. > :13:31.right now. There are so many are you mores, so many diverging
:13:31. > :13:35.interests in this debate and what we have to do is as politicians is,
:13:35. > :13:40.we have to be clear, and I come back to what the Greek colleague
:13:40. > :13:46.has said, the euro, so far, was a big success story, and we, as
:13:46. > :13:49.politician, should be aware, if one country would have to leave the
:13:49. > :13:53.euro, it could have devastating effects for the rest of the
:13:53. > :13:57.European Union, and therefore, we should consider very carefully what
:13:57. > :14:02.we are doing as the next step. What do you think the Greek
:14:02. > :14:08.Government will do next? Well, I mean, to be very honest with you,
:14:08. > :14:12.there is very little they can do. What they have been doing badly is
:14:13. > :14:16.adhering to those targets and implementing those reforms, and it
:14:16. > :14:21.is perfectly understandable that Governments and tax-payers who
:14:21. > :14:25.actually pay up, for these bailouts, demand results. What needs to be
:14:25. > :14:30.said, however, is as has been mentioned, Greece haz been
:14:30. > :14:33.mismanaged for so many years, that many of the problems are deeply
:14:33. > :14:39.rooted within the country and its economy. So reform is a little
:14:39. > :14:42.slower to come. And I would argue that evidence of the shock therapy
:14:42. > :14:49.Greece has been undergoing for the last year-and-a-half, is the
:14:49. > :14:54.recession the country is in. It is reaching 7.3% this quarter. These
:14:54. > :15:01.are unprecedented figures for a eurozone country. So, unfortunately,
:15:01. > :15:05.a big chunk of the Greek population are paying up. They are footing the
:15:05. > :15:10.bill for mismanagment that they did not cause, they are, in a way,
:15:10. > :15:14.asking for help, support, solidarity, so we can continue to
:15:14. > :15:19.enjoy all the benefits of the euro, and enjoyed across the eurozone, in
:15:19. > :15:25.Germany as well as in Greece. the meantime, Terry Smith, we have
:15:25. > :15:35.the prospect of this particular YuriGagarino50 Euro-crisis becoming
:15:35. > :15:40.
:15:40. > :15:45.a big bank this euro crisis? If we support Greece it will mean all the
:15:45. > :15:48.other countries in the periphery, but ones who have similar debt
:15:48. > :15:53.problems, none of which are complying with the austerity
:15:53. > :15:56.programme, if it costs so much they will bankrupt Germany, if you don't
:15:57. > :16:00.do it, you are left with the problem that the banks in certain
:16:00. > :16:04.countries, most particularly France, have bought so much debt off these
:16:04. > :16:10.countries that they will be bankrupted. Whichever way you jump
:16:10. > :16:17.it will be very bad. What's going to happen? Greece will leave the
:16:17. > :16:21.euro and default, I don't think it will rest with Greece. That's a
:16:21. > :16:26.superficial and easy solution there, I'm sorry, but it is the obvious
:16:26. > :16:30.thing to say, Greece will default and leave the euro, you have made
:16:30. > :16:32.an eloquent and intelligent argument about the
:16:32. > :16:37.interconnectiveness of banks and economies across the eurozone,
:16:37. > :16:40.would it not be a concern for you what it would mean if Greece left
:16:40. > :16:44.the euro, setting a precedent for other countries perhaps in the
:16:44. > :16:48.future, to leave the euro, in the near future as well, and what the
:16:48. > :16:53.ramifications of such a thing would be for the global economy, having
:16:53. > :16:58.one of the main currencies of the global economy completely
:16:58. > :17:02.destablised. I go back to what I said. Hang on a skebgd second.
:17:02. > :17:08.There is no painless way out of this, whatever way you go will
:17:08. > :17:14.cause pain, the longer you leave it will be more painful. The longer
:17:14. > :17:24.you leave a child with a credit card, the worse it will be with you.
:17:24. > :17:24.
:17:24. > :17:29.Hang on a second. I must join my Greek colleague. It would, in my
:17:29. > :17:35.eyes, some how be irresponsible to say the Greeks should leave the
:17:35. > :17:40.euro, no singer problem could better be solved if Greek left the
:17:40. > :17:46.eurozone. The amount of Greek debt in Europe would double, when the
:17:46. > :17:52.Greek currency would be devalued, rapidly. We could not help, as we
:17:53. > :17:57.can do it right now, and the second point is as soon as Greece would
:17:57. > :18:02.leave the eurozone, there would be an enormous speculation about the
:18:03. > :18:07.next candidates for default, this is something we have to avoid by
:18:08. > :18:13.building a firewall across Europe, we have to develop the instruments,
:18:13. > :18:18.the tools, in a tool box that we need, and for the time being, we
:18:18. > :18:21.should dare, as politicians, to be firm, and not to respond to
:18:21. > :18:25.speculation, but to do what we have announced and what we have promised
:18:25. > :18:29.over so many weeks and months. We will look forward to seeing what
:18:29. > :18:34.happens tomorrow then. The public don't seem to know much
:18:34. > :18:37.about him, but the trades unions do, to judge by today's reception of Ed
:18:38. > :18:41.Miliband at the TUC conference, plenty of them don't much care for
:18:41. > :18:45.what they know. Plans will be laid for what I suppose is called a
:18:45. > :18:49.winter of discontent. As the unions try to organise strikes protesting
:18:49. > :18:52.against public spending cuts. The unions effectively gave the junior
:18:52. > :18:55.Miliband victory over his brothers in the race for the Labour
:18:55. > :19:03.leadership. When he told them today that strikes over public sector
:19:03. > :19:05.pensions were a mistake, they jeered him.
:19:05. > :19:10.Every politician wants to be loved, right?
:19:10. > :19:18.Better by far to get cheered in happy adoration, than face a
:19:18. > :19:21.barrage of angry cat calls. The unthinkable happened, they
:19:21. > :19:28.booed him. Ceausescu was dumb struck, well, not necessarily, not
:19:28. > :19:30.if you are this man, in front of the TUC conference. It is our job
:19:30. > :19:34.to...Tho They are not. They are not continuing.
:19:34. > :19:40.A few boos from the unions wouldn't have hurt Ed Miliband's feelings
:19:40. > :19:46.today one little bit. It was proof, say his supporters, that he's no
:19:46. > :19:53.union puppet, no Red Ed, he is, they say, distinctly, his own man.
:19:53. > :20:00.There are times when you and I will disagree. You will speak your mind,
:20:00. > :20:03.and so will I. But, our link is secure enough, mature enough, to
:20:03. > :20:08.deal with disagreement. Because the relationship between party and
:20:09. > :20:14.unions, for me, is not about romance, or nostalgia, it is about
:20:14. > :20:17.respect and shared values. What drew the heckles, well, firstly, a
:20:17. > :20:23.condemnation from the Labour leader of the recent public sector strikes.
:20:23. > :20:27.So I fully understand why millions of decent public sector workers are
:20:27. > :20:30.angry, but while negotiations were going on, I do believe it was a
:20:30. > :20:37.mistake for strikes to happen last summer.
:20:37. > :20:41.I continue to believe that. Shame. But what we need now is meaningful
:20:41. > :20:46.negotiation, to prevent further confrontation over the autumn.
:20:46. > :20:51.Mr Miliband didn't win many friends in the hall by praising non-local
:20:51. > :20:55.authority-run schools. Let me just tell you, let me tell you about my
:20:55. > :20:58.experience of academies, I have two in my own constituency, they have
:20:58. > :21:02.made a big difference to educational standards in my
:21:02. > :21:06.constituency, that is my local experience. I'm sorry people say
:21:07. > :21:10."shame", I care about the kids in my constituency, and they have made
:21:10. > :21:14.a big difference, it has made a big difference to kids in my
:21:15. > :21:17.constituency. Critics of the link between the
:21:17. > :21:22.trades unions and the Labour Party sometimes fail to appreciate is
:21:23. > :21:26.that it was actually the unions that set up the Labour Party in the
:21:26. > :21:30.first place. To better represent their interests.
:21:30. > :21:35.However, what supporters of this link can sometimes not quite grasp
:21:35. > :21:39.is just how bad it can look to the increasingly large proportion of
:21:39. > :21:44.the British population who aren't in a trade union.
:21:44. > :21:48.Labour Party strategists worked out a long time ago, you can't actually
:21:48. > :21:53.win a British general election by simply tailoring your message to
:21:53. > :21:57.the people who come to an event like this.
:21:57. > :22:01.One Labour Party report has identified the commuter belt around
:22:02. > :22:07.London as crucial, if Labour wants to regain power. But here,
:22:07. > :22:17.according to polling, voters have a particularly hostile attitude to
:22:17. > :22:36.
:22:36. > :22:40.unions. When asked, for example, if . The author of that report is the
:22:40. > :22:46.Labour frontbencher, gartreth Thomas. One of the concerns I
:22:46. > :22:50.identified in the pamphlet I wrote is the concerns some in the
:22:50. > :22:53.commuter belt, some of those in the swing voters who were concerned
:22:53. > :22:56.about the way trade unions are operated. That is what Labour has
:22:56. > :23:00.to take into account when we consider our appeal to the
:23:00. > :23:05.electorate going forward. Changing perceptions for Labour
:23:05. > :23:11.might prove difficult. The most recent figures show that the unions
:23:11. > :23:15.gave Labour over 90% of its money. And a new study budgets that the
:23:15. > :23:20.unions had a huge influence on Ed Miliband's election as leader of
:23:20. > :23:24.the party, to the point where, according to academic, it couldn't
:23:24. > :23:27.have been considered a free and fair contest. We don't really know
:23:27. > :23:32.what would have happened under another set of rules. Ed Miliband's
:23:32. > :23:37.team might have fought a different campaign. We do know, and we can be
:23:37. > :23:40.fairly certain, is these features of the electoral college are
:23:40. > :23:43.problematic in the way they operate. They look back to the days of union
:23:43. > :23:48.block votes. That is why we are talking in the research about
:23:48. > :23:51.reinventing the block vote. The way the unions operated gave them the
:23:51. > :23:54.capacity to shape the result in the kind of way they would have done in
:23:54. > :23:58.the past. Tomorrow it is expected that the big public sector unions
:23:58. > :24:03.will announce that they intend to ballot on strike action for later
:24:03. > :24:08.this year. If the strikes do materialise, well it can only put
:24:08. > :24:12.further strain on Labour and its links with the unions.
:24:12. > :24:18.The leaders of the big unions affiliated to the Labour Party,
:24:18. > :24:21.Unison, Unite, the GMB, couldn't drag themselves away from the
:24:21. > :24:27.Congress in central London to be here tonight, but shadow Business
:24:27. > :24:30.Secretary, John Denham could, he's here. Can you support strikes this
:24:30. > :24:34.winter? The important thing is to look at the issues people are
:24:34. > :24:38.arguing about. We know people don't go on strike unless they have real
:24:38. > :24:42.concerns. On the other hand it is rarely the most important question,
:24:42. > :24:45.whether Labour supports the strike. What we need to look at, with
:24:45. > :24:49.public sector pensions for example, is why hasn't the Government got a
:24:49. > :24:52.proper negotiated deal. You think these changes are wrong? Will you
:24:52. > :24:57.support strike action this winter? If we think the changes are wrong
:24:57. > :25:01.and we think the Government isn't negotiating properly, we will say
:25:01. > :25:04.so. I won't get dragged into a secondary issue about whether
:25:04. > :25:08.Labour supports a strike that hasn't even happened. Ed Miliband
:25:08. > :25:12.said the changes are wrong? What he said last summer is he thought the
:25:12. > :25:16.strikes were wrong. He said the way the Government is going about it is
:25:16. > :25:20.wrong. He says there is case for change in pension, but it needs to
:25:20. > :25:25.be properly negotiate. Our role, as the Labour Party, is not to start
:25:25. > :25:28.saying, oh yes, we will or won't support a strike, it is to say let
:25:28. > :25:32.as have proper negotiations between the Government and the unions.
:25:32. > :25:35.There are real issues here for working people, and real issues
:25:35. > :25:38.about pension that is have to be sorted out. The answer to the
:25:39. > :25:43.question, will you support strikes this winter, is, you haven't
:25:43. > :25:47.decided yet? Answer to the question is what we will do is focus on the
:25:47. > :25:50.real issue that affects working people, and the best way of
:25:50. > :25:54.resolving it. The worst thing that can happen. You think that is
:25:54. > :25:57.leadership do you? The worst thing that can happen is for everybody to
:25:58. > :26:01.say what really matters is whether Labour is for origins a strike.
:26:01. > :26:04.What really matters is getting the right result on the issue. That is
:26:04. > :26:10.where we should be, and that is where we will be. When Len
:26:10. > :26:15.McCluskey of Unite, talk about civil disobedience is that
:26:15. > :26:21.legitimate or not? We wouldn't countenance anything outside the
:26:21. > :26:26.law. You would be against civil disobedience? Anything outside the
:26:26. > :26:29.law we are against. We are not against lots of different
:26:29. > :26:32.organisations getting involved. Everybody has to conduct themselves
:26:32. > :26:36.inside the law in this country, otherwise you are in a terrible
:26:36. > :26:40.state. The legal strike you are still undecided about? It is not a
:26:40. > :26:44.matter of being undecided, it is a matter of saying that is not the
:26:44. > :26:48.big issue of the this is a hugele cha eng facing the country, what do
:26:48. > :26:51.do you about public sector pensions, it is of huge concern to millions
:26:51. > :26:54.of people. What the Labour Party says about strikes isn't the big
:26:54. > :26:58.question, it is getting it sorted out. The big question, this is
:26:58. > :27:02.really all about the cuts, isn't it, that is what it is really about?
:27:02. > :27:05.The cuts is a wider issue, it is affecting man public services.
:27:05. > :27:09.Miliband said not all of the cuts would be reversed? That is true.
:27:09. > :27:12.Which ones wouldn't be? What we have said overall is the deficit
:27:12. > :27:18.reduction, the Government wants to get rid of the deficit in three
:27:18. > :27:23.years, we think it should be halved in four years, there is tens of
:27:23. > :27:28.billions of pounds of difference in what we think is a sensible rate of
:27:28. > :27:31.deficit reduction. We won't have a total alternative spending plan, it
:27:31. > :27:35.is impossible. We are honest to the unions, can he can't say every cut
:27:35. > :27:40.should be resisted, there would be no cuts. I just asked you, sorry, I
:27:40. > :27:45.haven't made myself clear, which cuts would not be reversed? You are
:27:45. > :27:49.asking us to go through a list of different things. Just give us two
:27:49. > :27:51.or three? In my area of responsibility I have made it clear
:27:52. > :27:58.that higher education would not have been free of all cuts, but it
:27:58. > :28:04.wouldn't be the �2.8 billion cuts the Tories did. If it was there -
:28:04. > :28:07.if there was a cut in line it would not be the same. How many billions?
:28:07. > :28:10.If you took it in proportion it is well under a billion. That would be
:28:10. > :28:14.in line with the other public spending cuts. We have also said
:28:14. > :28:18.that some of the adult training budget wouldn't have continued
:28:18. > :28:22.under Labour. If you go across the Labour Party every single person,
:28:22. > :28:27.and I'm not going to construct a huge alternative budget here,
:28:27. > :28:30.Jeremy. Why not? In opposition you can't. He made a public pledged to?
:28:31. > :28:35.In opposition you can't construct an entire alternative budget. What
:28:35. > :28:38.Ed Miliband said today. It is hard to know what he believes, that's
:28:39. > :28:42.all? What he said honestly to the unions, of course there would be
:28:42. > :28:46.cuts under Labour, not the same as the Tories, but not enough to say
:28:46. > :28:50.to the trade union movement there would be no cuts. Isn't the traud
:28:50. > :28:54.of the - isn't the truth of the matter he's embarrassed by the fact
:28:54. > :28:57.that the trade unions gave him the leadership of your party? He's
:28:57. > :29:02.proud to have the support of trade union members, not bosses, but
:29:02. > :29:06.members to get elected. He wants to see, as he said today, a country in
:29:06. > :29:14.which trade unions...What Portion of trade unions voted in that
:29:14. > :29:17.election? A disappointingly low percentage. 4%? A lot of the debate
:29:17. > :29:21.about the future of the Labour Party is how the three million
:29:21. > :29:24.individual trade union members who were entitled to vote, who didn't,
:29:24. > :29:27.become more active in the party. Everybody recognises that is a
:29:27. > :29:32.crucial part of refounding the Labour Party. So that people who
:29:32. > :29:34.are very often giving money to the Labour Party, through their
:29:34. > :29:40.voluntary donations, but who don't participate in any other way, are
:29:40. > :29:46.much more part of our future. There is fascinating diplomatic
:29:46. > :29:50.confrontation looming at the United Nations in New York. That and the
:29:50. > :29:55.grumbling appendix of world politics, the Israel Palestine
:29:55. > :29:58.issue has been overshald shadowed by upheavals in the rest of the
:29:58. > :30:04.Arab world. The Palestinians want to be recognised as a state and are
:30:04. > :30:11.going to try for it. The Israelis are horrified and want their US
:30:11. > :30:16.sponsors to fight for them. September brings the world's club
:30:16. > :30:22.of nations to New York. This year's general assembly opening promises
:30:22. > :30:26.to be an unusually fraught affair. The club house is under renovation,
:30:26. > :30:30.and there is bitter division over an application for membership. So
:30:30. > :30:35.it looks like we are about to witness the biggest United Nations
:30:35. > :30:40.drama for many years. Opponents of the Palestinian strategy argue it
:30:40. > :30:43.could tip an already inflamed region over the brink and into war,
:30:43. > :30:48.and it will bring about a confrontation between the United
:30:48. > :30:52.States, the biggest done nar to the organisation, the UN, and it could
:30:52. > :30:57.endanger hundreds of millions in humanitarian funding currently
:30:57. > :31:02.going to the Palestinian Authority. By pushing their case to be full
:31:02. > :31:04.members of the UN, the Palestinians have sought a greater role on this
:31:04. > :31:09.world stage. They could get additional political and legal
:31:09. > :31:15.rights out of it too. That has brought American political heavy
:31:15. > :31:20.weights out in opposition, people like Colin Powell. Ultimately it
:31:20. > :31:25.will have to be a peace process that provides a Palestinian state
:31:26. > :31:30.that is prepared to live side-by- side in peace with Israel. Does the
:31:30. > :31:33.vote coming up at the UN on Palestinian independence help or
:31:33. > :31:38.hinder? My initial reaction is I don't see how that helps the
:31:38. > :31:42.process. And so, I'm not sure if that is the side thing to be doing
:31:42. > :31:47.now, if it doesn't help the process. If it doesn't bring the two sides
:31:47. > :31:51.closer to one another, to begin negotiation, I'm not sure how
:31:51. > :31:55.helpful it is. The Palestinian President, Mahmoud Abbas, has been
:31:55. > :31:59.driving the UN membership bid. It offers him a chance to take his
:31:59. > :32:04.place with world leaders. But it also risks large amounts of US aid.
:32:04. > :32:07.So why do it now? There is the big sense of frustration within the
:32:07. > :32:13.Palestinian political classes, as well as the general at large. Add
:32:13. > :32:18.to that, the second factor, the Arab Spring, and the demand by many
:32:18. > :32:22.Arab citizens for their Governments to be more active, to show result,
:32:22. > :32:26.have really created a situation where Abbas thought he needed to do
:32:26. > :32:31.something significant, it seemed the UN rout is the only available
:32:31. > :32:36.at the moment. Supporters of Israel, predictably enough, are opposing
:32:36. > :32:41.the move? The best outcome, the soft landing, is a better-worded
:32:41. > :32:46.resolution, a resolution that can enable us to see that there are two
:32:46. > :32:50.states in homeland for the Jewish people and Israel's democratic
:32:50. > :32:52.citizens, and a homeland for the Palestinians, but it is done
:32:52. > :32:56.through negotiations and mutual respect.
:32:56. > :33:01.Nobody knows exactly what strategy the Palestinians will pursue. But
:33:01. > :33:05.there is an underlying recognition that a move in the Security Council,
:33:05. > :33:09.triggering a US veto, might not be in either side's interest. The US
:33:09. > :33:13.and Israel, if they can, will still stop this vote, but it is likely to
:33:14. > :33:18.go ahead, and it would happen here in the general assembly, where the
:33:18. > :33:21.Palestinians can usually expect a large majority. They will craft
:33:21. > :33:26.their diplomatic language carefully, possibly acknowledging the two-
:33:26. > :33:32.state solution approach to the Middle East. And accepting a status
:33:32. > :33:37.below that of full national state ranking here. All the tension then
:33:37. > :33:41.will swing to the Middle East and what happens the day after.
:33:41. > :33:47.The weekend storming of the Israeli Embassy in Cairo shows the
:33:47. > :33:50.pressures now upon leaders in the region.
:33:50. > :33:54.At an Arab League meeting in the city, the Turkish leader has argued
:33:54. > :33:59.for a tough line on the UN vote. TRANSLATION: Recognition of a
:33:59. > :34:02.Palestinian state is the only way forward, it is not an option, but
:34:02. > :34:06.an obligation. We should all support the rightful and legitimate
:34:06. > :34:09.struggle of the Palestinian people together, and with all our might,
:34:09. > :34:12.God willing, before this month is through, we will have the
:34:12. > :34:16.opportunity to see Palestine at a very different status at the United
:34:17. > :34:20.Nations. Some fear now that the UN drama
:34:20. > :34:25.could shift the dynamics of the Arab Spring. With all those
:34:25. > :34:33.demonstration that is have been going on in Cairo, and Damascus and
:34:33. > :34:37.elsewhere, so far the US has not an central. After this, the American
:34:37. > :34:42.veto or strong American opposition, that anti-American sentiments will
:34:42. > :34:46.come to the forefront. As a by- product of this, it will become
:34:46. > :34:50.more difficult for Arab Governments that want to co-operate with the
:34:50. > :34:54.United States to do so. As delegates convene for the
:34:54. > :34:59.general assembly, all sides are using brinkmanship, how the
:34:59. > :35:04.Palestinians will push their case to upgrade their status here, is
:35:04. > :35:08.still unclear. But even those who support their bid accept that its
:35:08. > :35:14.effects will be unpredictable, and it could easily produce a crisis in
:35:14. > :35:19.the Middle East. What are the Americans going to do?
:35:19. > :35:24.Well, what they are doing is trying to forestall this at the last
:35:24. > :35:27.minute. Diplomats here had been expecting that as early as this
:35:27. > :35:30.evening a Palestinian draft resolution would appear, or
:35:30. > :35:34.possibly tomorrow, they would then show their hand, where they go in
:35:34. > :35:37.the Security Council, or the general assembly route, exactly
:35:38. > :35:41.what kind of language were they using. The Americans have announced
:35:41. > :35:47.this afternoon, in order to get ahead of that, that two envoy,
:35:47. > :35:50.Dennis Ross and David Hale are going to the region. I think the
:35:50. > :35:54.point is to stop the Palestinians introducing their draft before
:35:54. > :35:57.speaking to the envoys, even if they can't stop it, they can slow
:35:57. > :36:01.it down. They are trying to buy time, and if they could they could
:36:01. > :36:06.stop the vote going ahead. If they fail to do that, just simply trying
:36:06. > :36:14.to make the terms of any resolution less problematic from a US
:36:14. > :36:19.perfective. So Israel is looking pretty isolated? Yes, it is
:36:19. > :36:24.striking that until comparatively recently Israel relied on tacit or
:36:24. > :36:26.sometimes even explicit diplomatic support from a number of Arab and
:36:26. > :36:32.regional countries, which were considered to be supportive, pro-
:36:32. > :36:36.western, if you like. Turkey and Egypt, are the key regional players,
:36:36. > :36:41.that have suddenly shifted position in this. The desire to meet public
:36:41. > :36:44.expectations that have been raised by the Egyptian revolution, is now
:36:44. > :36:48.driving a lot of policy pronouncements from Egypt and
:36:48. > :36:51.turkey. They are each trying, if you like, to put themselves at the
:36:51. > :36:55.head of popular feeling in the Arab world. This is one of the reasons
:36:55. > :36:58.why it is such a dangerous cocktail and why the Americans could become
:36:58. > :37:03.very exposed diplomatically if they are seen to shoot this down here at
:37:03. > :37:09.the UN. Give me the child and I will give
:37:09. > :37:15.you the man, St Francis, the founder of the Jesuit movement is
:37:15. > :37:18.said to have said. Religious movements around the world try to
:37:18. > :37:24.shape the impressionable finds with fables and stories, how the world
:37:24. > :37:26.began, how the first humans came and what rainbows are. The world's
:37:26. > :37:30.most celebrated atheist, Richard Dawkins gives a counter blast of
:37:31. > :37:34.fact. His new book, The Magic Of Reality, aims directly at children,
:37:34. > :37:38.teaching them how to replace myth with science. It is illustrated by
:37:38. > :37:41.the graphic artist and film director, Dave McKean.
:37:41. > :37:45.Of course, no-one really believes that it would be possible to turn a
:37:45. > :37:49.pumpkin into a coach, but have you ever stopped to consider why such
:37:49. > :37:53.things would be impossible. You probably haven't, because from
:37:53. > :37:59.our earliest years we learn to suspend disbelief.
:37:59. > :38:07.And that, apparently, is also how we condition impressionable brains
:38:07. > :38:12.to absorb religious hog wash. the creation myth of the Hebrew
:38:12. > :38:15.tribe of the desert, the God Yaweh created light on the first six days
:38:15. > :38:19.of his creation, but not the sun until the fourth day, where the
:38:19. > :38:24.light came from on the first day before the sun and stars existed,
:38:24. > :38:29.we are not told. Knocking down the scientific accuracy of millennia
:38:29. > :38:35.old stories isn't very hard. Rainbows, earthquakes, the origins
:38:35. > :38:39.of humanity, the origins of the universe itself, are all explained
:38:39. > :38:45.in ways that a 10-year-old might follow, but a five-year-old might
:38:45. > :38:48.not. According to the modern version of the big bang model, the
:38:48. > :38:52.entire observable universe exploded into existence between 13 and 14
:38:52. > :38:57.billion years ago. Some scientists will tell you that time itself
:38:57. > :39:02.began in the big bang, we should no more ask what happened before the
:39:02. > :39:06.big bang than we should ask what is north of the North Pole. But there
:39:07. > :39:10.in lies Richard Dawkins' problem. Even with him setting them up as
:39:10. > :39:14.aunt Sally's, the myths remain the better stories, carrying an
:39:14. > :39:19.imaginative charge that makes nonsense easier to understand than
:39:19. > :39:24.fact. Fairytales of whatever world religion retain an untarnishable
:39:24. > :39:30.beauty, more easily followed by a small and impressionable Tasmanian
:39:30. > :39:35.child, for example. A God called Moin ee was defeated by a rival God
:39:35. > :39:41.in a terrible battle up in the stars. Before he died he wanted to
:39:41. > :39:47.give a last blessing to his final resting place, he decided to create
:39:47. > :39:51.humans, but he forget to give them knee, he absent mindedly gave them
:39:51. > :39:55.big tails like kangaroos. They say the devil has all the best tune,
:39:55. > :40:01.but the religious elders have most of the best stories.
:40:01. > :40:05.Richard Dawkins is here, you seem to implicitly believe in this, or
:40:05. > :40:10.explicitly believe that rationalism is some how disadvantaged, do you
:40:10. > :40:15.really think that is? Nor am I knocking myths, I just think that
:40:15. > :40:20.science is better. Better stories I deny that the myths have the best
:40:20. > :40:24.tunes and the best stories. deny it? Yes. I actually think that
:40:24. > :40:30.science is so spellbinding. What have you got that beats the story
:40:31. > :40:34.of the kangaroo? Evolution. taking evolution, you really think
:40:34. > :40:39.that your version, you are very clear account of where our
:40:39. > :40:43.ancestors came from, which ends up in a not very attractive looking
:40:43. > :40:47.fish 185 million generations ago, as opposed to the creation myth in
:40:48. > :40:51.the Bible, that God takes a handful of dusts and breathes life into it,
:40:51. > :40:55.takes one of Adam's ribs and creates a woman. You think your's
:40:55. > :41:00.is more poetic? No question about it, absolutely. It is wonderfully
:41:00. > :41:03.poetic, when you think about it, here we are, we started off on this
:41:03. > :41:08.planet, this fragment of dust spinning around the sun, and in
:41:08. > :41:13.four billion years, we graduemly changed from bacteria into us, that
:41:13. > :41:17.is a spellbinding story. Do you accept that it is slightly more
:41:17. > :41:21.difficult for a child to comprehend? That I'm not sure about.
:41:21. > :41:27.It is conventional not to teach evolution until a later age, I
:41:27. > :41:31.think it could be taught at a younger age. But 185 million
:41:31. > :41:34.generations, that is a difficult thing to get your head around as a
:41:34. > :41:42.child? You have to employ careful strategies to do that, but I think
:41:42. > :41:45.it can be done. Now, nobody believes that Lot's wife for
:41:45. > :41:49.example was really turned to a pillar of salt, and you soon grow
:41:49. > :41:52.out of belief in Father Christmas and the tooth fairy, are you saying
:41:53. > :41:57.these things should never be taught? No, I'm not actually. There
:41:57. > :42:01.is a great value in training the imagination to be imaginative. So
:42:01. > :42:05.children love to make believe, for example, I did myself, I'm sure you
:42:05. > :42:13.did. It is a wonderful part of growing up, to play games of make
:42:13. > :42:17.believe. And part of it is comfort, isn't it, if you are told, I don't
:42:17. > :42:21.want to get too much into religion. If you are told you are a unique
:42:21. > :42:26.creation and made in God's image and loved, as opposed to the
:42:26. > :42:31.scientific image that you are a receipty insubstantial speck in the
:42:31. > :42:34.Cosmos, one is comforting, one is slightly alarming, isn't it? One is
:42:34. > :42:38.false and one is true, and it is rather important to whether it is
:42:38. > :42:42.alarming or not to get what is true. You can make up any number of
:42:42. > :42:48.stories that are comforting, but the truth has some value as well.
:42:48. > :42:52.But you accept the force, the imaginative force of comfort?
:42:52. > :42:57.wouldn't stress comfort, I accept the imaginative force of certain
:42:57. > :43:02.myths, and I throw in the juddaiyo Christian myth along with the myths
:43:02. > :43:07.of the Tasmanians and so on, I genuinely think science is more
:43:07. > :43:11.exciting and more poetic. They perform a social function too,
:43:11. > :43:15.particularly the religious myths, in that they tend to make us, as
:43:15. > :43:21.societies, hang together. You don't believe that, do you? It is
:43:21. > :43:25.certainly, the basis of our culture, and our legal system? It is true
:43:25. > :43:31.that historically religions have been the basis of our culture, but
:43:31. > :43:34.it is also true they have been the basis of plenty of things not very
:43:34. > :43:38.desirable. As for comfort, once again, I think I would come down to
:43:38. > :43:42.what is true, and say what I would really value is the truth rather
:43:42. > :43:48.than what is comforting, and the truth rather than what necessarily
:43:48. > :43:55.holds societies together. This book is intended for children what, 11,
:43:55. > :44:00.12? 12 and up to 100. All adults. Why can't you introduce children to
:44:00. > :44:05.reality at a younger age than that? I would love to do that. Maybe my
:44:05. > :44:10.next book will. This book was field tested down to about eight or seven,
:44:10. > :44:15.and they got it with help from teachers. I would like to think
:44:15. > :44:19.that parents could perhaps read bits of this book to seven-year-
:44:19. > :44:25.olds, and 11 and 12-year-olds I hope will love to read it
:44:25. > :44:27.themselves. This is the equivalent at an entire metaphysical level to
:44:27. > :44:32.telling children that Father Christmas doesn't exist, isn't it?
:44:32. > :44:40.I think that the truth is wonderful, I think the myths are fun. The book
:44:40. > :44:45.is full of myths. Which is your favourite myth? I like the one
:44:45. > :44:51.about Dromadena, it is very abusing, some of the Aztec ones are very
:44:51. > :44:55.funny as well. Do you find any of them personally affecting, you
:44:55. > :44:59.think, gosh what a wonderful story? Genesis is, as a story, as a myth,
:44:59. > :45:05.yes. And I mean, as long as you don't think it is true. The trouble
:45:05. > :45:09.is 40% of the American people think it is literally true. They probably
:45:09. > :45:12.think Lot's wife was turned into a pillar of salt as well for that
:45:12. > :45:17.matter. Do you really care that there are a lot of stupid people
:45:17. > :45:21.around? I do, I really do. I care that children are being misled by
:45:21. > :45:25.those stupid people. Why? Because I think that children deserve to know
:45:25. > :45:30.what's true and what's wonderful about the world into which they
:45:30. > :45:36.have been born. It really is true, and it really is wonderful, and it
:45:36. > :45:39.is such a crying shame if children are denied that by ignorant and
:45:40. > :45:43.stupid adults as you have described them. Richard Dawkins, thank you.
:45:43. > :45:47.Tomorrow morning's front pages now. The Financial Times here has a
:45:47. > :45:51.picture of Angela Merkel and the news that apparently she's going to
:45:51. > :45:56.try to suppress all talk that the Greeks are going to default on
:45:56. > :46:06.their debt. The independent has more on phone hacking, I think.
:46:06. > :46:13.
:46:13. > :46:17.That's it. The British artist Richard Hamilton died today at the
:46:17. > :46:22.age of 89, he produced some terribly well known paintings,
:46:22. > :46:32.sculptors and kolages, and known for a long time as the father of
:46:32. > :47:06.
:47:06. > :47:09.Still quite windy out there at the moment. The winds died down further
:47:09. > :47:13.overnight, and light winds in the south tomorrow, with the spells of
:47:13. > :47:18.sunshine, it should feel pleasant here. Cloudy skies across northern
:47:18. > :47:21.England, particularly to the west of the Pennines, where there will
:47:21. > :47:25.be light drizzle. In the east not a lot of sunshine. Clouding across
:47:25. > :47:28.Lincolnshire and parts of the Midlands, after a sunny start. Much
:47:28. > :47:31.of East Anglia and the southern counties of England will have a
:47:31. > :47:35.fine day. Spells of sunshine and the winds lighter than they have
:47:35. > :47:38.been. It will feel a bit warmer. Sunny spells across most of South
:47:38. > :47:42.Wales, and North Wales will see a change through the day. Clouding
:47:42. > :47:47.over with some rain trickling southwards through the Irish Sea.
:47:47. > :47:50.That rain is pulling away through Northern Ireland, after a damp
:47:50. > :47:53.start, sunshine here through the afternoon. Brighter too across
:47:53. > :47:57.central and southern parts of Scotland. In the far north it will
:47:57. > :48:02.be wet and still here very windy. The winds will start to ease by
:48:02. > :48:06.Thursday. In fact, Thursday promises to be a fine day for much
:48:06. > :48:09.of the country, an autumnal feel, it will start cold on Thursday
:48:09. > :48:13.morning, there will be some mist and fog patches. They should clear
:48:13. > :48:17.and Thursday then will bring most places some spells of sunshine.
:48:17. > :48:19.Certainly for the majority it will be a dry day. After that cold start,
:48:19. > :48:22.temperatures eventually in the sunshine reaching the mid-to high