:00:10. > :00:14.Tonight, why have so many of this summer's rioters a string of
:00:14. > :00:18.criminal conviction, what's wrong with the criminal justice system
:00:18. > :00:22.that cannot deter them from a life of crime, or rehabilitate them or
:00:22. > :00:26.keep them off the streets. Charities are going to the wall,
:00:26. > :00:31.community agencies are going to wall. Then they finally realise
:00:31. > :00:37.what started this and what needs to be addressed there will be no-one
:00:37. > :00:43.there. We ask the Justice Secretary what he means by a "feral
:00:43. > :00:48.underKlasnic" and there is - "feral underclass".
:00:48. > :00:51.A desperate attempt to save the euro, will it work lt Three years
:00:51. > :00:55.to the day since Lehman Brothers collapsed, is it case of here we go
:00:55. > :01:00.again. And, they may be steady in the poll,
:01:00. > :01:06.but the Conservatives are losing a lot of women voters, why?
:01:06. > :01:16.Far too often they are not looking at policy through a female lens,
:01:16. > :01:17.
:01:17. > :01:20.this has become more evident over recent months. Good evening, the
:01:20. > :01:27.Ministry of Justice issued new figure today about the find kind of
:01:28. > :01:32.people arrested in the riots. The vast majority had existing
:01:32. > :01:36.criminal records. What is surprise something a vast majority with over
:01:36. > :01:41.15 convictions have never been in prison. Keneth Clarke will discuss
:01:41. > :01:45.whether we have a broken justice system that neither deters or
:01:46. > :01:50.rehabilitates criminalsment The shard, that gleaming symbol of
:01:50. > :01:58.Britain's wealth rises above the council estates at its feet, that
:01:58. > :02:04.is the nature of London the rich overlooking the power, the
:02:04. > :02:08.juxtaposition some feel is the cause of the riots. Southwark has
:02:08. > :02:12.written to 50 council tenants, allegedly involved in the riot, and
:02:12. > :02:16.today the community safety officer is on a home visit. We are going to
:02:16. > :02:20.talk through the issues, try to identify some issues they may be
:02:20. > :02:23.facing, the challenges they might be facing and talk through the
:02:23. > :02:26.reprecussions of what they have been involved in. Is there anything
:02:26. > :02:31.else we can do in terms of helping them, but also looking at some of
:02:31. > :02:35.the issues that took place that night. Ultimately, eviction would
:02:36. > :02:39.be a possibility? We have to do it proportionally whatever decision we
:02:39. > :02:45.make. I think what we are trying to do is the council has put that
:02:45. > :02:49.level of proportionality in. further detail emerged today about
:02:49. > :02:53.the backgrounds of the rioters. Statistics reached by the Ministry
:02:53. > :02:58.of Justice showed that 73% of those charged had a previous caution or
:02:58. > :03:03.conviction. 40% had more than five previous offences, and 5% had more
:03:03. > :03:08.than 50 previous offences. Southwark Council spends millions
:03:08. > :03:11.of pounds trying to keep young people out of prison. But a recent
:03:11. > :03:15.Government funding cut is hitting social programmes hard. We don't
:03:15. > :03:20.have the whole range of things we may have had a year ago, but we
:03:20. > :03:24.certainly do have, and we certainly retained that one-to-one work, that
:03:24. > :03:27.intensive work, that work with families, dealing with all the
:03:27. > :03:30.complexties that they find within their daily lives.
:03:30. > :03:35.As the Justice Secretary, Keneth Clarke, said today, you can't
:03:35. > :03:39.simply prosecute your way out of this situation. You have to tackle
:03:39. > :03:47.the underlying causes behind the riots. But that costs money. At a
:03:47. > :03:54.time of severe pressure on budgets. This is Dave Walk, from a charity
:03:54. > :03:57.called sut work Mediation Centre. Here he is defusing another
:03:57. > :04:02.neighbourhood row. The boyfriend deliberately antagonised me, I said
:04:02. > :04:07.don't stand there taking the BEEP out of me, come over and have a go.
:04:07. > :04:12.What would you like to live here in peace why your neighbour, Sharon,
:04:12. > :04:16.what do you need? Dave's mediation charity has been funded for more
:04:16. > :04:23.than 20 years by Southwark Council, that all changed this year when the
:04:23. > :04:26.money was axed. So you lost �240,000 a year. Bang, gone, it is
:04:26. > :04:32.devastating. It now means that we can't operate the service for the
:04:32. > :04:35.whole of the borough, the staff at the centre have been working,
:04:35. > :04:39.keeping the centre going whilst on benefits to keep the service going.
:04:39. > :04:43.We can't continue that forever. Most of Dave's team are now on
:04:43. > :04:47.benefits and the rent is six months late. His work continues, just. The
:04:47. > :04:50.police have asked him to work a group of 50 youths. They have asked
:04:50. > :04:54.us to get involved, so we can engage directly with the young
:04:54. > :04:59.people and their parents, and look at ways in which this sort of
:04:59. > :05:04.behaviour can be addressed and reduced. His counterpart in the
:05:04. > :05:09.neighbouring borough of Lambeth, is still funded by the council, but
:05:09. > :05:13.worried. While I'm lucky currently, my funding is insecurement come
:05:13. > :05:15.next April I could be on the employment line looking for a job.
:05:15. > :05:18.It doesn't matter about qualification, there are lots of
:05:18. > :05:22.people with lots of qualifications, who are still finding it hard. So
:05:22. > :05:27.if we're in that position, what opportunities for the younger
:05:27. > :05:31.people, and what do they see as their future. Back in Southwark,
:05:31. > :05:38.the man who holds the purse strings for the council says hard choices
:05:38. > :05:40.are being made. We had �6 million taken off us in the last financial
:05:41. > :05:45.year, that George Osborne introduced a month into power. We
:05:46. > :05:49.had a further �34 million taken off us for this current fnction
:05:49. > :05:53.financial year. We know that those cuts are going to continue in
:05:53. > :05:58.future years, which makes things really difficult for us, clearly we
:05:58. > :06:01.need, as a council, to deliver those statutory services. Some of
:06:01. > :06:07.those things which are really important to us, but more
:06:07. > :06:12.discretionary, such as some of our intervention around anti-social
:06:12. > :06:17.behaviour and community safety and youth provision, have been under
:06:17. > :06:22.severe pressure. Massive wealth inequality, thwarted
:06:22. > :06:27.aspirations, the breakdown of family value, rampant materialism,
:06:27. > :06:30.social media, the list of cause force the riots is long, but one
:06:30. > :06:34.thing is clear, working with young people is vital and it will cost
:06:34. > :06:39.money. I caught up with the Justice
:06:39. > :06:42.Secretary in Westminster a little earlier.Looking at your
:06:42. > :06:47.department's statistics about who is doing the rioting, do you think
:06:48. > :06:51.there is a lost generation of young men who are, frankly, unsavable?
:06:51. > :06:59.There is obviously far too many, and the danger is they are getting
:06:59. > :07:03.more of them. Actually, although I have personally remembered riots 30
:07:03. > :07:06.years ago, these were widespread and serious. The sheer casual
:07:06. > :07:10.criminality troubles me. It was almost instantly people were
:07:10. > :07:15.responding to things on their mobile and BlackBerry, and turning
:07:15. > :07:20.out to loot what they wanted. There was no undertone of anything except
:07:20. > :07:24.criminal people, just straight away to repeat crimes they had already
:07:24. > :07:29.been convicted for in the past, sentenced in the past, and nothing
:07:29. > :07:33.would stop them, just responding in this way. Quite outside the values
:07:33. > :07:37.of ordinary, decent people in this country. Implicit in that, it
:07:37. > :07:40.suggests, I'm sure you would recognise is there must be
:07:40. > :07:44.something seriously wrong with the criminal justice system, if young
:07:44. > :07:49.people who are repeat offenders in that way are not deterred, they are
:07:49. > :07:52.not rehabilitated, and nothing really is working? Some things are.
:07:52. > :07:55.Don't let's dismiss everything that goes on, it is an appalling sort of
:07:55. > :08:02.picture, it bears out what I have been going on about ever since I
:08:02. > :08:07.got toe the department. That the reoffending figures in this country
:08:07. > :08:12.are really a disgrace. If all we do is punish them and turn them out
:08:12. > :08:15.with still criminal intent, they spontaneously almost take part in
:08:15. > :08:18.criminality, and you have more victims. That is why we will
:08:18. > :08:22.introduce more work into prisons and make them places of disciplined
:08:22. > :08:26.working week, why we are going to tackle the drugs in prison, why we
:08:26. > :08:30.will tackle problems with alcohol. Why we are going to make sure the
:08:30. > :08:35.mentally ill ones are actually treated somewhere more sensibly
:08:35. > :08:40.than in prison. And also why, both in prison and outside, we will try
:08:40. > :08:45.to pay by results. People who think that they can get hold of these
:08:45. > :08:49.people when they are being punished, after they are being punished, to
:08:49. > :08:54.stop them reoffending. Are you writing off many of these people,
:08:54. > :08:58.if they have done ten or 15 offences, it doesn't sound as if
:08:58. > :09:03.rehabilitating them will work, you may be talking about future
:09:03. > :09:06.generations and all those things may be of benefit? I'm not naive
:09:06. > :09:10.about all of this, there are some who, whatever you try to do, they
:09:10. > :09:14.will keep going back into criminality. But they are starting
:09:14. > :09:19.from a situation where 50%, half the people we have in prison we
:09:19. > :09:22.know will be back within a year. And there are three quarters of
:09:23. > :09:27.them committing more offences, although some good work has been at
:09:27. > :09:34.the moment, it is neglected, it is not the priority for years, the
:09:34. > :09:37.priority now is to build up what we are doing in prisons to stop
:09:37. > :09:40.reoffending. Punishment was given swiftly and frmly by the court
:09:40. > :09:44.system. That worked. There are keen people in the Prison Service who
:09:44. > :09:47.want to be allowed to do more, actually to improve this
:09:47. > :09:51.reoffending position. We will have to write off the ones where we fail,
:09:51. > :09:56.but some of these people probably could be induced to go back to a
:09:56. > :10:03.proper way of life with the ordinary values of society. Do you
:10:03. > :10:07.think the public mood on this has changed as a result of the riots?
:10:07. > :10:10.think the public mood is predictable on these occasions.
:10:10. > :10:14.what way? The vast majority of people in this country, rich and
:10:14. > :10:19.poor, are honest b one in three adult, males has a criminal record,
:10:19. > :10:23.but it is a long distance one in their youth, the values of British
:10:24. > :10:28.society are extremely good. They are appalled by wanton lawlessness
:10:28. > :10:31.of this kind. People get very angry. Then you get predictable reactions
:10:31. > :10:35.to it, all the way from why don't we hang and flog them on the one
:10:35. > :10:40.hand to why not give them all social workers at the other. But
:10:40. > :10:45.the real sensible mainstream of British opinion, I think, is punish
:10:45. > :10:51.firmly, make it more intelligent, it must be possible to get some of
:10:51. > :10:56.these people back into a decent way of life with a job and no more
:10:56. > :10:59.reoffending. Last week on Newsnight, your junior minister said it was
:10:59. > :11:03.not an aim of the Government to reduce the prison population, do
:11:03. > :11:06.you agree with it? I have never stated it. I think the prison
:11:06. > :11:10.population has soared pointlessly, I would like to stablise the
:11:10. > :11:16.situation. If it was allowed to sore as Labour were planning to see
:11:16. > :11:21.it increased when they handed over - soar as Labour were planning to
:11:21. > :11:25.when they handed it over to us, it was not good to accommodate people
:11:25. > :11:29.for a time and make no progress in stopping them being criminals. We
:11:29. > :11:35.will put in prison whoever the courts send, I want to make it more
:11:35. > :11:39.sensible. Now is not a good time to cut prison officers and probation
:11:39. > :11:43.officers? Like many parts of the public services, if you try hard
:11:43. > :11:50.people can improve the way it runs. I'm a great believer in competitive
:11:50. > :11:54.tendering, we did well last time, I'm putting more out this time, the
:11:54. > :11:57.public sector will respond by seeing how they can avoid waste and
:11:57. > :12:02.save money. The idea that this means I shouldn't try to save money
:12:02. > :12:04.on the running costs of prisons I think is a mistake. Do you think
:12:04. > :12:08.you have made it clear that you are interested in the practicalities
:12:08. > :12:13.and what works, in that sense, does it help when the Prime Minister
:12:13. > :12:18.talks of a broken society, or a sick society, or Iain Duncan Smith
:12:18. > :12:23.talking today of "distorted morality" in our society. Does that
:12:23. > :12:28.kind of language help practically? It is language I use occasionally
:12:28. > :12:32.I'm not a great moraliser in politics, but my reaction to the
:12:32. > :12:40.riots was good gracious what kind of society have we in a certain
:12:40. > :12:46.section of the population. There are many parts and honest people,
:12:46. > :12:50.but very dishonest rich people. One or two sorted out recently. But
:12:50. > :12:55.these people, what just, feral was one word I described them, they
:12:55. > :12:59.were casually and spontaneously engaging in violence, it varied
:12:59. > :13:04.from city-to-city. Some were the well established criminals having a
:13:04. > :13:08.go at the police, and coming behind the violence. But the looting was
:13:08. > :13:13.extraordinary. That society is broken. What I'm talking about,
:13:13. > :13:18.because I'm Justice Secretary, is where the criminal justice system,
:13:18. > :13:21.and the rehabilitation effect of sentences is trying to help. If
:13:21. > :13:24.anybody experienced the riots, whether they were hardline, one
:13:24. > :13:30.side or the other, there is something wrong with a society
:13:30. > :13:34.where this kind of thing can flare up for no apparent reason so
:13:34. > :13:37.spontaneously. I disagree with them. The criminal justice system can
:13:37. > :13:41.contribute. A minute left, I wouldn't let the opportunity pass,
:13:41. > :13:47.talking to a former Chancellor, without asking you about-to-reflect
:13:47. > :13:51.on the euro, when you look at that, how big a mess is it? With the
:13:51. > :13:54.credit crunch it is very worrying indeed. We need agreement, and an
:13:54. > :13:58.orderly way of getting through this crisis in Greek debt, which will
:13:58. > :14:01.rapidly become a crisis in the debt of Portugal and Ireland and other
:14:01. > :14:05.places if it is not resolved. Plainly, we must have stability.
:14:06. > :14:09.I'm not sure we can just run on like this for some years. I do have
:14:09. > :14:13.my own view, but I'm not in the Treasury about what the Europeans
:14:13. > :14:19.should be doing. A bit of leadership might not go amiss?
:14:19. > :14:22.The main thing I take from this crisis is unfortunately, the
:14:22. > :14:28.political leadership in the United States of America, and in large
:14:28. > :14:32.parts of western Europe, has been totally overwhelmed by the
:14:32. > :14:37.dimensions of this financial crisis, it is not able to cope, you have
:14:37. > :14:40.patrol ral sis in Washington and large parts of - paralysis in
:14:40. > :14:43.Washington and large parts of Europe, everyone is fighting short-
:14:43. > :14:47.term politics. I don't think the British Government is coming out
:14:47. > :14:53.too badly when you make that comparison, but our fate partly
:14:53. > :14:59.rests on how these people are sort it out. The euro will survive, it
:14:59. > :15:02.is in British interests are in that, because we will be badly hit if it
:15:02. > :15:06.doesn't. The euro needs fiscal discipline, not the same level of
:15:06. > :15:10.tax and spending everywhere, Governments can decide for
:15:10. > :15:14.themselves whether they are high tax high spend, low tax, low spend,
:15:14. > :15:18.but disciplined fiscal discipline, control of deficits is required. We
:15:18. > :15:22.agreed it when I was Chancellor, and the Germans led the way in
:15:22. > :15:26.breaking it, because there wasn't a mechanism to enforce it. In the
:15:26. > :15:32.longer run, let us hope they get back to fiscal discipline, if the
:15:32. > :15:35.eurozone can be kept intact. Thank you very much.
:15:35. > :15:38.That was Keneth Clarke speaking earlier about the riots. They are
:15:38. > :15:42.on the euro, and on that issue of the single currency, it might be
:15:42. > :15:46.this time lucky for Greece, as yet again, France and Germany pledged
:15:46. > :15:50.they do whatever it takes to bail out the Athens Government and keep
:15:50. > :15:54.the country in the euro. Or it might be another sticking plaster
:15:54. > :16:01.that copes the markets happy for a few weeks before - keeps the
:16:01. > :16:05.markets happy for a few weeks before the wound leaks. Five
:16:05. > :16:09.European banks move to provide loans for Greece in the crisis that
:16:09. > :16:12.won't go away. Another meeting on the crisis begins in Poland
:16:12. > :16:16.tomorrow. Why have the central banks been forced into doing this?
:16:16. > :16:19.Keneth Clarke said it there, there is an on going credit crunch, and
:16:19. > :16:23.there is not much political leadership. The credit crunch in
:16:23. > :16:28.Europe takes the form of money draink out of the system back to
:16:28. > :16:30.America, and some small European - draining out of the system back to
:16:30. > :16:34.America, and some small European banks not lending to each other.
:16:34. > :16:39.The source of fear is obvious, Greece going bust, Greece going
:16:39. > :16:42.bust takes down two French, one German, one Belgian bank that we
:16:42. > :16:45.know about and are worried about. This came to a head this week,
:16:45. > :16:49.because you have the troika, this is a group of experts, in Athens,
:16:49. > :16:54.who have the right to say to the Greek, you are not doing enough, so
:16:54. > :16:59.we are not giving you the next tranche of your bailout money. This
:16:59. > :17:03.they intimated to them by leaving the city, before last weekend. We
:17:03. > :17:08.start this week with the real possibility that Greece company pay
:17:08. > :17:13.civil servants in a month's time N the last 24 hours three things have
:17:13. > :17:16.ob viated that. The authorities have slashed interest rates on the
:17:16. > :17:21.bailout money, not just to Greece but also Ireland and Portugal to
:17:21. > :17:25.about zero. You remember about a year ago people insisted the
:17:25. > :17:29.bailout would be at market rates, but it is zero interest. More
:17:29. > :17:35.importantly, they had the meeting to pledge to keep the Greeks inside
:17:35. > :17:40.the euro, at all costs. They didn't say that they will avoid a default
:17:40. > :17:42.at all cost, but keeping them in the euro, even with a default is
:17:42. > :17:47.very important. It is the difference between taking three or
:17:47. > :17:49.four banks out, and taking a lot of the banking system out, if it
:17:50. > :17:54.sparks a domino effect of people leaving the euro. The other thing
:17:54. > :17:57.they have done today, as you say, five central banks have decided to
:17:57. > :18:01.flood the European banking system with dollars, you can borrow
:18:01. > :18:06.dollars to an unlimited amount until the new year. What does that
:18:06. > :18:10.sort out? Liquidity. The problem we might have, late at night, we look
:18:10. > :18:13.for a minicab and no money in the wallet. That is liquidity, it
:18:13. > :18:18.doesn't solve your bank account. The bank account is the problem.
:18:18. > :18:27.That is why the IMF boss, Christine Lagarde, today, urged Governments
:18:27. > :18:30.to sort the bank account, the sol vncy issue out. - solvency issue.
:18:30. > :18:36.Weak growth of Governments, households, are feeding negatively
:18:36. > :18:41.on each other. Fuel ago crisis of confidence, and holding back demand,
:18:41. > :18:48.holding back investments and job creation. This vicious cycle is
:18:48. > :18:53.gaining momentum, and frankly, it has been exacerbated by policy and
:18:53. > :18:56.uncertainty and political lack of resolve and collective
:18:56. > :19:04.determination. She called it a vicious cycle, we have talked about
:19:04. > :19:07.this again and again and again. What would break the cycle? A lot
:19:07. > :19:10.of economists and historians believe the circuit breaker is
:19:10. > :19:15.Greece leaving the euro and for them to default. Everyone is
:19:15. > :19:22.reading every book they can find on the gold standard crisis in the
:19:22. > :19:26.1930s, where one after another the parties left the gold standard.
:19:26. > :19:31.However, that is not the mainstream view, the mainstream view among
:19:31. > :19:35.European economists, and you are about to talk to some of them s
:19:35. > :19:40.keep everybody in the euro and break the circuit in another way.
:19:41. > :19:44.There is one way, to recapitalise the European banks to the union of
:19:44. > :19:48.500 billion, some think to a trillion, even more, you need a lot
:19:48. > :19:52.of money, and you throw everything at it quite soon. The other things
:19:52. > :19:57.you do is do what Keneth Clarke was talking about there, you create a
:19:57. > :20:01.framework for fiscal discipline. That is, once and for all, fiscal
:20:01. > :20:04.discipline, but in return fiscal transfer, north Europe gives money
:20:04. > :20:07.to south Europe to stop the problem of everything spiralling way down
:20:07. > :20:14.the plughole. Until you do that, there is no circuit breaker. Keneth
:20:14. > :20:18.Clarke also talked about this lack of leadership and paralysis and so
:20:18. > :20:21.on. What happens tomorrow? There is the finance ministers of the
:20:21. > :20:26.eurozone meeting tomorrow in Poland. Timothy Geithner turning up from
:20:26. > :20:32.America, he knows how to do one of these major bailouts. What they
:20:32. > :20:36.have to play with is the ESSF, the 40 billion euro fund, they expanded
:20:36. > :20:40.it on in July, that, importantly, is now available to bail out
:20:40. > :20:45.countries like Greece, ports GAL, Ireland, Spain maybe, Italy, and
:20:45. > :20:48.also to bail out banks and also to do very any of they intervention
:20:48. > :20:54.noose markets that we haven't thought up yet. The - into markets
:20:54. > :21:00.that we haven't thought up yet. The choice they may have and they will
:21:00. > :21:03.have some say it is a no-brain he, do you save Greece by pumping money
:21:03. > :21:08.into an economy that can't grow and take the deficit down. Or do you
:21:09. > :21:11.let it go, and take the money destined for it and pump it into
:21:11. > :21:17.the banking system. That is the choice.
:21:17. > :21:21.Thank you very much. A little earlier I was joined by
:21:21. > :21:25.Finland's minister for European affairs, Alexander Stubb. I asked
:21:25. > :21:29.him if President Sarkozy and Chancellor Merkel's latest attempt
:21:29. > :21:32.to calm the markets had any chance of working this time? I think it
:21:32. > :21:36.has worked for the past three years. We have to realise that every
:21:36. > :21:39.solution here is ad hoc, what we actually need are long-term,
:21:40. > :21:45.stricter, tougher rules, so that we will never face this situation
:21:45. > :21:50.again. Really, for me, it is all about some member states missinging
:21:50. > :21:55.their public funding, that is whyer - mismanaging their public funding,
:21:55. > :22:00.that is why we are in this mess. Are we throwing good money after in
:22:00. > :22:04.bad unless we have those kinds of conditions, is that the mood in
:22:04. > :22:07.Finland? That is the mood we have, we are Protestant testant EU
:22:07. > :22:17.believers, we believe when we joined the euro we have a set of
:22:17. > :22:20.rulesment when we do well we save, when we do badly we use the money.
:22:20. > :22:26.Now we feel let down that some countries haven't stuck to the
:22:26. > :22:32.rules. That is why the mood is what it is in Finland right now.
:22:32. > :22:35.then, that perhaps why you want collateral, but what does that
:22:35. > :22:39.actually mean? We want collateral because it was a political deal
:22:39. > :22:44.through which we were able to form a Government. We wanted guarantees
:22:45. > :22:47.that the money is not thrown out, if you will. The collateral deal
:22:47. > :22:52.that is emerging between Finland and Greece is probably something
:22:52. > :22:57.that can be accepted by all of the member states. Hopefully we will
:22:57. > :23:00.have a deal within the next few days, a couple of weeks at the
:23:00. > :23:04.latest. I notice Austria is interested in it this kind of deal,
:23:04. > :23:08.and those who feel they are fiscally strict, want more
:23:08. > :23:13.conditions. In other words, they want to be more onerous on Greece,
:23:13. > :23:20.it sucts a lack of confidence, in the - sucts a lack of confidence
:23:20. > :23:26.about the way - suggests the lack of confidence in the way the
:23:26. > :23:29.European policies have been going. We have to start thinking about -
:23:30. > :23:33.outside the box. We can't have economic union without policy co-
:23:33. > :23:36.ordination. We need to give more powers to the commission, to if not
:23:36. > :23:41.control, at least guard national budgets. We can't be driven to the
:23:41. > :23:45.same situation again. Does it worry you, however, even if you are
:23:45. > :23:48.trying to safeguard Finnish tax- payers' money, that you are
:23:48. > :23:52.undercutting what the IMF and European Central Bank have been
:23:52. > :23:55.trying to do, because you are asking for more conditions on
:23:55. > :24:00.Greece? Never underestimate the capacity of European civil servants
:24:00. > :24:06.to find a creative solution. Never underestimate the capacity for Fins
:24:06. > :24:09.to be pragmatic. We will find a solution by the end of the day. It
:24:09. > :24:14.will be comfortable for us and not damaging anybody else. I'm sure
:24:14. > :24:19.this does not undermine the IMF, the European Central Bank, in any
:24:19. > :24:24.way. One way things have been pragmatic is to become more anti-
:24:24. > :24:32.European, the True Finns Party have been doing quite well. Is that a
:24:32. > :24:38.worry? That is big worry, that is a mood pretty much everywhere. My
:24:38. > :24:40.answer is not to retract and close shop and going into a
:24:40. > :24:44.protectionist/nationalist mood, saying we don't need Europe. For a
:24:44. > :24:48.small country like Finland, completely export dependant, 40% of
:24:48. > :24:52.our GDP is from experts wrecks need to be pro-European in order to be
:24:52. > :24:56.able to survive. We just need to communicate things better and do
:24:56. > :25:00.smart solutions. But do you think there will come a point where the
:25:00. > :25:04.Finnish people say, that's it, we are AAA rated, we are a really good
:25:04. > :25:10.risk, and we are bailing out people who are exactly the opposite?
:25:10. > :25:14.situation will emerge, if we do not get the current euro/financial/debt
:25:14. > :25:19.crisis under control. And if other countries, such as Greece emerge,
:25:19. > :25:23.as not taking care of their public finances. If we get strict rules,
:25:23. > :25:33.new sets of rules, which prevent this, then I think we will be quite
:25:33. > :25:35.
:25:35. > :25:38.all right. Joining me is Elena Panaritis who advises the Prime
:25:38. > :25:43.Minister, George Papandreou. should anyone have any confidence
:25:43. > :25:48.that this will work out when you, in Greece, have not met the
:25:48. > :25:55.austerity targets that have been set? Actually, that's not very
:25:55. > :26:01.correct as a statement. We have met the targets. It is the fact we are
:26:01. > :26:05.waiting for the sixth franch, that is the sixth set of targets. And as
:26:05. > :26:09.a matter of fact...You Won't get it if you don't meet the targets. It
:26:09. > :26:12.is true that the troika. Precisely, that is why we will meet the
:26:12. > :26:17.targets. If you don't meet the targets you won't get the money?
:26:17. > :26:21.That is why we have met the targets all along. We will meet the targets
:26:21. > :26:27.again. Why aren't you getting the money? There is no conversation of
:26:27. > :26:31.not getting the money. We are meeting the targets, and the troika
:26:31. > :26:37.meeting is showing up next week, where they are going to make an
:26:37. > :26:43.assessment of whether or not we are progressing appropriately. We have
:26:43. > :26:48.actually reduced our deficit in a year by 6%, by is a historical
:26:48. > :26:51.successful target that has not been met by any other European country
:26:51. > :26:56.since the Second World War. other European countries don't have
:26:56. > :27:03.quite your problems? I don't know what do you mean by not having our
:27:03. > :27:06.problem. We have the strongest, the most serious economic crisis in the
:27:06. > :27:14.Second World War, so it is the first time where all of Europe is
:27:14. > :27:17.seeing a crisis like that. It is a euro crisis. But is it true, as
:27:17. > :27:23.reported, that the troikka, the inspectors from the European Union,
:27:23. > :27:27.- the troika, the inspectors from the European and the IMF, are said
:27:27. > :27:35.to be almost in despair at the way Greece's debt problem is out of
:27:35. > :27:39.control? The words "in despair" and "out of control" have not been
:27:39. > :27:49.reached by our monitors yet. If they do, maybe we will have a
:27:49. > :27:49.
:27:49. > :27:55.response to those. We have a 1% deviation from our target. We have
:27:55. > :28:02.just had a series of meetings with parliamentarian, in accepting to
:28:02. > :28:06.take additional austerity measures to meet the 1% point we are missing
:28:06. > :28:10.from the 6% points that are there. We are supposed to be at seven and
:28:10. > :28:15.we are at six. That is a point. you accept that this is pretty much
:28:15. > :28:20.your last chance, that even President Sarkozy and Chancellor
:28:20. > :28:25.Merkel, are losing patience with you, and we just heard, the Europe
:28:25. > :28:35.minister, from Finland, saying so are the people in his country, they
:28:35. > :28:35.
:28:36. > :28:41.want more from you, not less? we need to make and see the whole
:28:41. > :28:48.problem as it is, versus isolating the problem to one of the 17 member
:28:48. > :28:53.countries of the euro. The euro zone has had a rather tough few
:28:53. > :29:01.years, last few years, as a matter of fact, no member country of the
:29:01. > :29:05.eurozone would be able to submit to meet the Maastricht treaty
:29:05. > :29:12.agreements right now, meaning we are all going through a very, very
:29:12. > :29:16.tough period. Greece is the weakest link, it is true. We have had a
:29:16. > :29:21.very badly run public sector, we are very much aware of that. And we
:29:21. > :29:28.have been engaged in a programme, for 16 months now. But it has been
:29:28. > :29:32.16 months. And our crisis is not a liquidity crisis yet. We have
:29:32. > :29:40.undertaken fiscal measures that reduced three times the salaries
:29:40. > :29:45.and the pensions of regular citizens. We get close to about 45%
:29:45. > :29:54.reduction. We already have started from a low percentage, we have
:29:54. > :29:58.salies that are below the average of the salaries that are below the
:29:58. > :30:03.average of Europe. Keeping talking about the lick quittity problems
:30:03. > :30:07.will generate problems for the rest upy. Are you saying Greece is
:30:07. > :30:11.unfairly - the rest of Europe. Are you saying Greece is unfairly
:30:11. > :30:14.singled out, not just Finland, Austria is interested in the
:30:15. > :30:18.collateral question too, and Angela Merkel and Nicolas Sarkozy are
:30:18. > :30:24.indeed losing patience with you, are they not? I believe they are
:30:24. > :30:31.very much aware that we are just 2.7% of the euro contributors to
:30:31. > :30:36.the euro GDP. It is basically the tale of the euro. So if the euro is
:30:36. > :30:42.not handling itself very well, only because of Greece, that would be a
:30:42. > :30:47.problem for the euro in the system that is managing, the monetary
:30:47. > :30:52.system managing the euro. How are the Greek people taking this, you
:30:52. > :30:55.are imposing tough cuts on them, on your public service, as public
:30:55. > :31:00.sector, you are not getting much credit from some of these others,
:31:00. > :31:07.I'm suggesting to you, and Greece's reputation in this is pretty
:31:07. > :31:12.appalling? Actually, the correct question is how are the Greek
:31:12. > :31:20.people handling this, very correctly said. Because, as I
:31:20. > :31:29.expressed earlier, they are the ones doing all the, taking all the
:31:29. > :31:32.slack, if you wish and they are tired of it. They are tired to get
:31:32. > :31:39.out and demonstrate even. We have some demonstrations but not the
:31:39. > :31:44.strong wave of demonstrations we had six weeks ago. Yet they do
:31:44. > :31:49.expect a better life for the future, and a better economic recovery, a
:31:49. > :31:53.faster economic recovery. So there is, if you wish, impatience from
:31:53. > :31:58.within. I'm assuming, as you say very well, that there is a lot of
:31:58. > :32:06.impatience from outside. We do need to focus on what will make the
:32:06. > :32:09.recovery work, versus focusing on blaming games, or fringeer pointing.
:32:09. > :32:15.There are several countries in trouble, not just that one, right.
:32:15. > :32:19.I just wondered who you blamed for pointing the finger then? Excuse me.
:32:19. > :32:26.Who do you blame for the finger pointing? I'm not blaming anybody,
:32:26. > :32:31.I'm just saying, blaming games are not, they don't always work.
:32:31. > :32:40.Just a final thought, come Christmas s Greece still going to
:32:40. > :32:44.be in the euro? Absolutely. Thank you very much.
:32:44. > :32:49.Is the Conservative Party anti- women, or to put it another way,
:32:49. > :32:55.how worried should the Tories be about their apparent lack of appeal
:32:55. > :32:59.to women voters. A leaked document said many woman find the
:32:59. > :33:03.Conservatives a turn off. - women find the Conservatives a turn off.
:33:03. > :33:12.We asked the former Tory candidate, launching a think-tank on women's
:33:12. > :33:17.issues, to give us her views. Women's roles have turned upside
:33:17. > :33:24.down since they won the vote in 1918.
:33:24. > :33:29.Out of the home and into the work place. Teaching, inventing, leading.
:33:29. > :33:31.But despite obvious improvements, women continue to be the junior
:33:31. > :33:36.partner. And the Conservatives haven't done
:33:36. > :33:41.enough to help. In fact, they have been mostly missing from the debate
:33:41. > :33:45.on women. Far too often they are not looking at policy through a
:33:45. > :33:51.female lens, and this has become more evident over recent months.
:33:51. > :33:56.Government cuts are hitting women more than men. Smaller budgets for
:33:56. > :33:59.Sure Start, and a change in the retirement age have caused problems.
:33:59. > :34:02.So in Government blamed single mothers for the riots. Rhetoric
:34:02. > :34:07.like this has led to calls that the Conservatives are anti-women, but
:34:07. > :34:11.this week, we have seen the start of a charm offensive. A leaked
:34:11. > :34:16.Downing Street memo mooted some good ideas around child benefit,
:34:16. > :34:20.but do these ideas go far enough. It is not just about party politics.
:34:20. > :34:28.It is much bigger than that. When it comes to talking about women,
:34:28. > :34:33.there is only one game in town. Feminism. I think feminism is a
:34:33. > :34:37.toxic, battled hardened and arrogant philosophy, that is
:34:37. > :34:46.manipulated by those at the extreme of politics. Feminism has had its
:34:46. > :34:52.day, we need women to stand up and shout feminism, not moo in my name.
:34:52. > :34:56.- not in name. Feminism is mostly seen as being anti-men. Take
:34:56. > :35:00.Harriet Harman's recent decision to hold women-only meetings at Labour
:35:00. > :35:06.Party Conference. Feminists have alienated men, and in some cases
:35:06. > :35:12.caused quite a backlash. Who can forget the Conservative Party MP
:35:12. > :35:16.calling some feminists obnoxious bigots. Feminists prop up the
:35:16. > :35:21.bloated public sector with their blinkered adherence to the radical
:35:21. > :35:24.anti-cuts agenda, which is helping nobody, least of all, women. They
:35:24. > :35:28.vilify the private sector, businesses are blamed for not
:35:28. > :35:31.bending over backwards and dancing to the feminist tune. And feminism
:35:31. > :35:36.is obsessed with equality of numbers, rather than the
:35:36. > :35:41.aspirations of women. We see endless diversity co-ordinator,
:35:41. > :35:50.shoe horning women into jobs. Can this really be good for women?
:35:50. > :35:55.Conservative MP, Nadie Zahawi has written a book about avoiding
:35:55. > :36:00.financial meltdown in the future. He thinks women need to play a
:36:00. > :36:03.bigger role. We have looked at the psychology of groups and the
:36:03. > :36:07.behaviour of groups and have found that having more women does make a
:36:07. > :36:11.difference to the outcomes of decisions. We believe that having
:36:11. > :36:14.more women will make a real difference, not just to the
:36:14. > :36:18.diversity of the trading floor or the boardroom, but a real
:36:18. > :36:22.difference to the bottom line in terms of profitability. Now we have
:36:23. > :36:27.to sell it to the banks what is the next step? What we are calling for
:36:27. > :36:31.at board level is for banks to look at having a threshold of 0%
:36:31. > :36:35.representation of women on the board. The reason for the 30% is
:36:35. > :36:40.there is plenty of evidence to show that the 30% is the tipping point
:36:40. > :36:43.to change behaviour. Now, I hope you don't mind me asking, are these
:36:43. > :36:48.proposals for a quota, do you think they are anti-men? I don't,
:36:48. > :36:56.obviously we would like to see the banks implement this voluntarily.
:36:56. > :37:01.But sometimes, to really make a big difference to cull ure, we callor -
:37:01. > :37:04.culture, we talk about this in different areas, you need the big
:37:04. > :37:08.stick. Does the Prime Minister agree with me that we need more
:37:08. > :37:13.women on the corporate boards. week the Prime Minister hinted at
:37:13. > :37:17.action to increase women's representation in the boardroom.
:37:17. > :37:21.Only 14% of FTSE 100 company directors are women. We should do
:37:21. > :37:25.better, we have some experience from the problems we had in our own
:37:25. > :37:29.party, and the need to take more pro-active action. The Home
:37:29. > :37:35.Secretary set out a new Government scheme to encourage equal pay. I
:37:35. > :37:38.don't think they go far enough. We need a fundamental review of all
:37:38. > :37:42.childcare benefits, we need to focus on the needs of older women.
:37:42. > :37:48.Women tend to have smaller pension provisions than men, why is that?
:37:48. > :37:51.We need to eliminate policies that pit men against women. Quotas are
:37:51. > :37:56.superficially attractive, but they won't achieve the change we need.
:37:56. > :38:00.We need a powerful Ministry for Women w a cabinet-level minister.
:38:00. > :38:06.Ahead of the party conferences, these issues are finally creeping
:38:06. > :38:12.on to the agenda. Can we keep them there?
:38:12. > :38:17.Charlotte Vere is with me now, and we're joined by Eagle, famously
:38:17. > :38:22.told in the Commons this year to "calm down dear" by the Prime
:38:22. > :38:26.Minister. The serious point is the
:38:26. > :38:29.Conservatives have a plan to offer a number of things in the hope of
:38:29. > :38:33.attracting women voters which, presumably you can't really
:38:33. > :38:37.disagree with. Cutting school summer hole day, banning
:38:37. > :38:42.advertising, front loading child benefit, more women on corporate
:38:42. > :38:46.boards, you can't disagree with that I think it is window dressing
:38:46. > :38:49.to cover up a much bigger problem they realise they have with women.
:38:50. > :38:56.That millions of women up and down the country know that they have got
:38:56. > :39:02.with this Government. That is, that the cuts agenda is being aimed at
:39:02. > :39:07.them more than other people, that more money is being taken from
:39:07. > :39:12.women and children, for example, in George Osborne's cuts to benefits
:39:12. > :39:20.and support, than tax increases, on the banks, who caused a lot of the
:39:20. > :39:24.economic troubles in the first place. We know from when we get
:39:24. > :39:28.nasty little glimpses of what people think that there is really
:39:28. > :39:32.quite an anti-women approach to the Government. We had the Universities
:39:32. > :39:37.Minister, David Willetts, blaming women for the lack of job
:39:37. > :39:43.opportunities for working-class men. We have heard these rumours that
:39:43. > :39:47.Steve Hilton, the Prime Minister's policy guru in Number Ten is want
:39:47. > :39:50.to go abolish maternity rights for women. We have seen half a million
:39:50. > :39:54.women suffering from having their pension age rise, women aren't
:39:54. > :39:59.silly out there, they know when the Government is doing things. Another
:39:59. > :40:02.go in the minute. The main point here is this is window dressing,
:40:02. > :40:07.you haven't covered yourself in glory, you go some of the way in
:40:07. > :40:11.thinking you need to do for more women? I agree one point with
:40:11. > :40:15.Angela, the Government needs to do much, much more. Some of the items
:40:15. > :40:19.in that list do look a little bit like window dressing. What is
:40:19. > :40:23.absolutely critical is the Government is now focusing on women.
:40:23. > :40:26.And as you say, women have come out poorly from the cuts. That is not
:40:26. > :40:29.because they are women, it is because we have to make the cuts.
:40:29. > :40:33.And women represent the sort of jobs that actually are being cut.
:40:33. > :40:37.But that is the complex issue, why are women in those jobs, not that
:40:37. > :40:40.they are being cut. George Osborne said that we were all going to be
:40:40. > :40:45.in this together and this Government promised the electorate
:40:45. > :40:48.before the election that this would be the most family-friendly
:40:48. > :40:52.Government ever. What's that got to do with women, I don't understand.
:40:53. > :40:56.What they have actually done is the opposite. They are aiming cuts and
:40:56. > :40:59.policies, disadvantaging women more than anything. But if there is more
:40:59. > :41:02.women in public service jobs, and public services are going, they are
:41:02. > :41:06.going not because they are women, but because public service jobs are
:41:06. > :41:10.going, that is the argument? think it all started off pretty
:41:10. > :41:16.badly, didn't it. The first thing that Government did was actually to
:41:16. > :41:19.say that people who are accused of rape should have anonymity for no
:41:19. > :41:23.reason, and there had to be a cross-party campaign to stop that
:41:23. > :41:27.happening. And then they forget to do an equality assessment of the
:41:27. > :41:31.budget, required by law, when we actually looked at George Osborne's
:41:31. > :41:37.choices and the choices that were made in last year's budget, we saw
:41:37. > :41:41.that women were affected three times more than men by the budget,
:41:41. > :41:45.and twice as much as men by the cuts. Women aren't silly they know
:41:45. > :41:49.when they are being disadvantaged. Women certainly aren't silly. The
:41:49. > :41:54.problem we have at the moment is women are being treated like second
:41:54. > :41:57.class citizens. By your Government. No indeed not, by the previous
:41:57. > :42:01.Government. The issue is women need to be treated like grown-up, we
:42:01. > :42:05.need to put into place things that benefit women not just because they
:42:05. > :42:08.are women. Not equality for equality's sake, we need to make
:42:08. > :42:16.sure that women within their working and non-working life can
:42:16. > :42:19.fulfil their potential. That is what is critical. That is when in
:42:19. > :42:22.the leaked Number Ten document talking about the child benefit
:42:22. > :42:26.being flexible. All the Government have done with child benefit is
:42:26. > :42:30.freeze it, and secondly, take it off some women in a year-and-a-
:42:30. > :42:36.half's time, some families are going to lose that child benefit.
:42:36. > :42:41.They are cutting Child Tax Credits? There is no money. When you have to
:42:41. > :42:45.make deficit reduction choices, you have to grow as well as make cuts,
:42:45. > :42:49.this Government is failing, the economy is flatlining, what we have
:42:49. > :42:56.seen is a Government that seems content to punish women and the way
:42:56. > :43:01.in which they have to live their lives. I was struck by your take on
:43:01. > :43:05.feminism there, is it impossible to be a Conservative and a feminist?
:43:05. > :43:08.The issue is that feminism nowadays and I have been out on the streets
:43:08. > :43:11.talking to people about this, people see feminism in a very
:43:11. > :43:17.negative light. If I talk about my beliefs, and say want to do
:43:17. > :43:19.something for women and broaden the debate for women. You go and ask
:43:19. > :43:23.most normal, politically moderate people they will roll their eyes,
:43:24. > :43:30.they are expecting quotas and special jobs for Jews women, women
:43:30. > :43:36.need to earn their jobs, and I'm sorry, but men see feminism as an
:43:36. > :43:40.take on them now. We have to work collaboratively. Is that an excuse
:43:40. > :43:45.for Conservative ministers who have a particular tone about this,
:43:45. > :43:49.perhaps, that Eagle suggests, to say we don't need to do that,
:43:49. > :43:52.because this is "feminists" and we don't have to represent them?
:43:52. > :43:56.need to broaden the debate and somebody tols speak up and say on
:43:56. > :43:59.the one side you have feminism who want 50% of all firefighters to be
:43:59. > :44:07.women, which is a nonsense. On the other side we are talking about
:44:07. > :44:12.sensible, hard working whim who want a - women who want to have a
:44:12. > :44:17.successful life. I can't believe I'm hearing feminism caricatured by
:44:17. > :44:20.someone making a bizarre point I don't understand. Feminism is
:44:20. > :44:25.empowering women to have equal opportunities and empowering them
:44:25. > :44:28.to make choice, it is choices this Government are taking away from
:44:28. > :44:32.women. I'm a proud feminist, if the Conservative Party wants to think
:44:32. > :44:38.feminism is something alien to it, that is fine. We are a talking
:44:38. > :44:41.about empowering women, giving them choices, allowing them to reach
:44:41. > :44:44.their full potential. What David Willetts was taking about was
:44:44. > :44:47.saying you can either have working- class men having opportunities or
:44:47. > :44:51.women. That shouldn't be the choice. You have the last word on that, in
:44:51. > :44:58.erms it of tone. The thing the Prime Minister said "calm down
:44:58. > :45:05.dear" which some took at a joke. Don't forget what he said to Nadine
:45:05. > :45:08.Dorries last week which was really offensive. Has he got the tone
:45:08. > :45:11.wrong? There should be improvements in tone. That is widely recognised.
:45:11. > :45:14.I do think that transferring the focus to women, there is a huge
:45:14. > :45:18.amount that can be done, for the economy and for our society.
:45:18. > :45:23.We will leave it there. Thank you very much.
:45:23. > :45:26.We can't do the papers tonight, which some technical reason, that
:45:26. > :45:30.is all from Newsnight tonight, on the day the Guinness Book of
:45:30. > :45:33.Records has been showing off its latest clutch of world beaters.
:45:33. > :45:43.Their dedication of something which the late Roy Castle would surely
:45:43. > :45:49.# Dedication # That's what you need
:45:49. > :45:59.# If you want to be the best # And you want beat the best
:45:59. > :46:20.
:46:20. > :46:23.It is not as cold tonight, thanks to blanket of cloud. Fine bright
:46:23. > :46:27.conditions across the south. One or two showers here. Further north
:46:27. > :46:30.lots of cloud and outbreaks of rain. Some of which could be heavy at
:46:30. > :46:35.times. Particularly across North West England. As a result it will
:46:35. > :46:39.be noticably cooler. Some showers across the Midlands, certainly, one
:46:39. > :46:44.or two across East Anglia. Much of the south will be dry and bright.
:46:44. > :46:49.Hazy sunshine, warm, we could reach temperatures of up to 2 in London
:46:49. > :46:52.the high teens in the south west. A few showers drifting into parts of
:46:52. > :46:56.South Wales. A wet morning in North Wales, dry here in the afternoon.
:46:56. > :47:00.The same story for Northern Ireland, a wet, wet start, but the afternoon
:47:00. > :47:03.promises brighter conditions, some sunny spells, but there will be
:47:03. > :47:06.showers. The showery rain becoming more extensive across Scotland
:47:06. > :47:09.through the day. It will feel cooler without the sunshine that we
:47:09. > :47:13.saw during Thursday. Saturday promises another cool day.
:47:13. > :47:16.There will be some stiff winds blowing, and there will be lots of
:47:16. > :47:21.blustery showers across the country. Further south the showers will be
:47:21. > :47:24.more hit and miss a bit more in the way of sunny spells, but the
:47:24. > :47:28.showers never the less when they come along could be heavy.
:47:28. > :47:32.Particularly because parts of North Wales and North West England, a wet