:00:09. > :00:13.Tonight, Germany's politicians back the latest bailout plan for the
:00:13. > :00:18.euro. But how worried are the German people that they are signing
:00:18. > :00:21.a blank cheque. First we have had a snowball, the snowball becomes
:00:21. > :00:25.bigger and bigger and bigger, and sometimes it will be an avalanche.
:00:25. > :00:30.You think this is making things worse? Yes, I'm afraid.
:00:30. > :00:35.One of Mrs Merkel's ministers tells Newsnight why her country owes it
:00:35. > :00:37.to the rest of us. 60 years ago it was us who brought war and
:00:37. > :00:42.destruction over Europe, the European people did not chase us
:00:42. > :00:47.away, kick us out. Rio Fredinand loses his privacy
:00:47. > :00:51.case, but is it really a big win for the tabloids. Stephen Mosley
:00:51. > :00:57.and Rio Fredinand's biographer debate how important the judgment
:00:58. > :01:03.is. - max Mosley. In Saudi Arabia a woman driver is
:01:03. > :01:09.spared the lash, is it real reform or a half hearted promise of
:01:09. > :01:12.something some time. Happy St George's Day, now kiss
:01:12. > :01:16.my...Jerusalem, The play that entranceed the critics and
:01:16. > :01:21.delighted audiences is coming back to the London stage. Its star, Mark
:01:21. > :01:31.Rylance, is here to discuss its appeal, and what it tells us about
:01:31. > :01:32.
:01:32. > :01:35.being English today. Germany's political class, with
:01:35. > :01:41.some notable exceptions, rallied behind Chancellor Merkel today in
:01:41. > :01:44.voting more money for the continued eurozone bailouts. Like generals
:01:44. > :01:47.still fighting an ancient war, they may have solved last year's
:01:47. > :01:52.problems, how close are they with getting to grips with today's
:01:52. > :01:54.problems and tomorrow. Some forecast this latest move,
:01:54. > :01:59.depending on the generosity of the German tax-payers, will be far from
:01:59. > :02:06.the last. There is clear public anger about that prospect, why are
:02:06. > :02:09.the Germans still enthralled to the European project.
:02:09. > :02:14.The Volkswagen headquarters in Wolfsburg owes everything to that
:02:14. > :02:19.latter day miracle, the German economy. Every day the towers are
:02:19. > :02:24.stacked with new cars, by night fall most of them are empty. People
:02:24. > :02:28.come from everywhere to gawp at the achievements of global industry.
:02:28. > :02:31.This is the most graphic illustration of Germany as Europe's
:02:31. > :02:35.economic powerhouse. For decades that is how Germans have seen
:02:36. > :02:41.themselves. But for the grandchildren of a post-war
:02:41. > :02:47.generation, will success be sustained? Germany may lead Europe,
:02:47. > :02:51.but the euro-bailout leaves many Germans simply baffled. I'm not
:02:51. > :02:56.sure if the system is right or not. When we do a decision, we go on
:02:56. > :03:01.this way, or we go in this way, who knows what is right. You mean this
:03:01. > :03:06.is all too confusing? Sometimes, yes. Do you think that Germany is
:03:06. > :03:13.paying too much at the moment for Europe? Yes, I think so. We are the
:03:13. > :03:17.country who pays the most for the Greeks. Is it possible to get the
:03:17. > :03:25.money back? And in way what way? That is I think is the problem.
:03:25. > :03:31.Just a few hours here in Wolfsburg reinforces the familiar message,
:03:31. > :03:34.Germany's economic prowess has been keeping the European show on the
:03:34. > :03:38.road. But many Germans are wondering about the numbers adding
:03:38. > :03:43.up. Many Germans believe that the poorer nations, Greece and the rest,
:03:43. > :03:47.have been taking them for a ride. Back in Berlin, where the bailout
:03:47. > :03:52.was under debate, business leaders are irate as what they see as basic
:03:52. > :03:55.rules being broken over Greece. the beginning you earn a lot of
:03:55. > :04:00.money with high interest rates. Now you get the feeling that you can't
:04:01. > :04:08.get back your money. And you cry for European Governments that they
:04:08. > :04:14.should take liability. They should bail you out? Yes, indeed. We say,
:04:14. > :04:18.that's liability. For the risks, that is one of the principles of
:04:18. > :04:22.market economy.At The Bundestag, Chancellor Merkel was surviving the
:04:22. > :04:25.challenge to her authority. The bailout was approved, with her
:04:25. > :04:28.budget chairman, telling me this could be just the start. More
:04:28. > :04:33.billions could yet be deployed to help the rescue.
:04:33. > :04:42.It is necessary to do more. much more can be given? It would be
:04:42. > :04:47.wrong to say any number, any figure, any ...It Is a blank cheque? It is
:04:47. > :04:54.not the rise signal, in the markets. Some in Merkel's coalition believe
:04:54. > :04:57.this is all too reckless? But first, we have had a snowball, the
:04:57. > :05:02.snowball becomes bigger and bigger and bigger, sometimes it will be an
:05:02. > :05:06.avalanche. You think this is making things worse? Yes, I'm afraid.
:05:06. > :05:11.While many Germans share this angst and apprehension, even now few will
:05:11. > :05:15.question the euro itself. Germans, even those appalled by the bailouts,
:05:15. > :05:22.are committed to the currency. you look to different European
:05:22. > :05:27.countries, then you see that in other countries we have strong
:05:27. > :05:32.political parties, which are totally against Europe. Luckily we
:05:32. > :05:36.don't have that in Germany yet, but the danger is growing that such a
:05:36. > :05:40.party could come around. You are saying, luckily you don't have it,
:05:40. > :05:45.why is it luckily you don't have it? We believe Europe is a very
:05:46. > :05:50.good project. Our future lies in Europe, in a combined Europe.
:05:50. > :05:56.are no Euro-sceptics in Germany, everybody believes in the project?
:05:56. > :06:01.Yes. The overwhelming majority does. But the risks for this project are
:06:01. > :06:05.growing immensely. So, on a night when a new
:06:05. > :06:09.exhibition of ancient Greek art opens here in Berlin, how to
:06:09. > :06:12.explain the German commitment to keeping modern Europe afloat.
:06:12. > :06:16.think there are many things to say on this. The most prominent thing
:06:16. > :06:20.is, let's call it the historical glue, is falling apart. Germany is
:06:20. > :06:25.unified for 20 years now, this country has profoundly changed, it
:06:25. > :06:28.is coming nicely along, it is a different Republic than the former
:06:28. > :06:31.federal Republic, this structure that we need to be European, the
:06:31. > :06:36.first prize, at any condition, this is fading. What we are discussing
:06:36. > :06:40.now, is yes, Europe, profoundly the German people are profoundly
:06:40. > :06:46.European, we want a price tag, we want to know which Europe, which
:06:46. > :06:51.conditions, at which price. Wolfsburg, the town built on VW and
:06:51. > :06:56.exports, you didn't have to look hard to find true believers and
:06:56. > :07:05.defenders of the faith. The euro was good for Germany, I think, even
:07:05. > :07:08.today, if you didn't have the euro and we had the German currency, the
:07:08. > :07:13.exchanges rate would be high up, and we are not Switzerland and do
:07:13. > :07:17.what they do and say we take it to the euro. The point s Germans
:07:17. > :07:22.remain as tied to the euro as ever, but they are also about to be faced
:07:22. > :07:26.with an economic slowdown, growth next year of just 1.5%. Don't be
:07:26. > :07:34.deceived, there are rougher waters ahead.
:07:34. > :07:38.After the vote was won, I talked with the German minister of labour
:07:38. > :07:44.and social affairs, she's also chairman of the political party of
:07:44. > :07:47.Angela Merkel, the CDU. Doesn't the overwhelming majority in the
:07:47. > :07:50.Bundestag, behind Chancellor Merkel's plan, suggest you have
:07:50. > :07:55.been too calm and cautious, you could have had the vote and pushed
:07:55. > :07:59.harder and faster? No, we have to go step by step. Because we realise
:07:59. > :08:03.now that we haven't been talking enough about where we want to go
:08:03. > :08:07.with Europe, and what the consequences out of the crisis are.
:08:07. > :08:11.During the last eight years we have been talking a lot about
:08:11. > :08:16.regulations of lightbulbs and cucumbers, but not about the values
:08:16. > :08:20.we defend in Europe. That is the time now to make sure we want to go
:08:20. > :08:24.forward with Europe, we did make mistakes, we have to learn our
:08:24. > :08:30.lessons and get further towards integration in Europe. But I wonder
:08:30. > :08:33.if there aren't two Germans and two Berlins speaking today. There is
:08:33. > :08:37.the people inside the Bundestag, who have clearly an idea of Europe,
:08:37. > :08:41.but there is the people outside, the ordinary voters of Germany, who
:08:41. > :08:46.are sceptical and some of them angry that you will be back again,
:08:46. > :08:51.and again, and again for more money? I understand that people are
:08:51. > :08:56.worried. We have a deep crisis, we are not at the end of the crisis.
:08:56. > :09:02.But what was necessary is the process to realise that the problem
:09:02. > :09:05.began ten years ago, when we started with our single currency,
:09:06. > :09:12.the euro, which was the right decision, but we didn't fulfil it.
:09:12. > :09:15.We just said we want a common currency, but we don't want common
:09:15. > :09:20.discipline. Where budgets are concerned. We gave ourselves rules
:09:20. > :09:26.but we broke the rules. We broke the limits for debts and now we are
:09:26. > :09:32.in the process to say we have to have more discipline in Europe, we
:09:32. > :09:36.need a central European player who controls those rules that are not
:09:36. > :09:39.to be broken. That is the way we are now. How do you respond to the
:09:39. > :09:44.argument that maybe today you solved last year's problem, and now
:09:44. > :09:49.it is even worse, and for the German voters they see figures,
:09:49. > :09:54.maybe a trillion euros will be needed or two trillion euros, they
:09:54. > :09:59.will think maybe they are signing a blank cheque to people who have not
:09:59. > :10:07.had that discipline? We have realised now that the way to get
:10:07. > :10:12.into debt was slowly but surely not sticking to the Maastricht rules.
:10:12. > :10:19.For the European people, for the German people, it was a process to
:10:19. > :10:26.realise we have to give up some sovereignity, if we want to fulfil
:10:26. > :10:32.Europe, that is to make sure we have fiscal discipline, so the euro
:10:32. > :10:39.is stable but also the values of Europe stable. In Germany we do
:10:39. > :10:46.have a long history with Europe. 60 years ago it was us who brought war
:10:46. > :10:50.and destruction over Europe the European people did not chase us
:10:50. > :10:53.away or kick us out. They gave us a hand to stand up again to become
:10:53. > :10:59.competitive. Today we in Germany are strong, that is what we have to
:10:59. > :11:05.remember. We are strong now, we can give solidarity, but we need to
:11:05. > :11:09.implement subsidiarity too, that is the goal right now. This mixture of
:11:10. > :11:19.solidarity, with clear rules, and subsidiarity, is the right way to
:11:20. > :11:23.
:11:23. > :11:28.I'm joined from Berlin by Professor Markus Kerber, one of a group of
:11:28. > :11:32.German activists who has used court challenges to try to stop the
:11:32. > :11:37.bailouts. You have heard one view there that today's vote was a
:11:37. > :11:41.triumph for European solidarity, you also heard the view that it was
:11:41. > :11:46.good Germany money thrown after bad? As you know from my different
:11:46. > :11:51.statements, I consider the bailout policy as totally inadequate to
:11:51. > :11:59.solve the fundamental problems of the eurozone. You can't come over
:11:59. > :12:02.the discrepancy of some countries being competitive, others being
:12:02. > :12:05.uncompetitive by sovereign debt crisis. Nothing will be improved in
:12:05. > :12:09.Greece, Ireland and Portugal, simply by subsidising these
:12:09. > :12:13.countries. As a matter of fact, Greece has been subsidised heavily
:12:13. > :12:19.for more than 0 years through the European, regional and structural
:12:19. > :12:26.fund. You know the result. So we simply are horrified by the vision
:12:26. > :12:31.that at the moment, where this bailout is, or the beefed up
:12:31. > :12:39.European financial FA - European Financial Stability Facility is
:12:39. > :12:43.voted, some of these professional euro rescuers in Brussels or
:12:43. > :12:47.elsewhere, mention the possibility, or the probability of enlarging the
:12:47. > :12:50.fund. That means they don't have any intellectual devices to fight
:12:50. > :12:54.that crisis. They say, very clearly, there is no alternative. We have
:12:54. > :13:04.just heard from the minister there, that Germany has a duty to do this,
:13:04. > :13:05.
:13:05. > :13:09.you have to do it? Well, this is almost outrageous do compare the
:13:09. > :13:16.war crimes of Germany with the poor fiscal governance of Greece. This
:13:16. > :13:21.is a blessing to the millions of victims, which are a chip on our
:13:21. > :13:26.shoulder. I find the comments of the minister most despicable. This
:13:26. > :13:33.has got nothing to do with it. If we acted to, if we want to step
:13:33. > :13:39.forward, it is - if we want to acted to, we want to step forward
:13:39. > :13:44.in a proper way. She is a medical doctor and has not the foggiest
:13:44. > :13:49.idea of the euro problems. We need to deal in a legitimate policy that
:13:49. > :13:52.claims to be without alternative. Violation of the law is
:13:52. > :13:58.never...Sorry To interrupt, you were thrown out by the
:13:58. > :14:03.constitutional court? No, we lost a legal battle concerns, the first
:14:03. > :14:08.European Financial Stability Facility. Now we have a beefed up
:14:08. > :14:11.European Financial Stability Facility. And this can be very
:14:11. > :14:15.easily the object of another legal challenge. I remind you of the fact
:14:15. > :14:22.that my group has another challenge in the European Court of Justice,
:14:22. > :14:26.because we sued Mr Trichet for his totally illegal quantitative easing
:14:26. > :14:30.policy, turning the European Central Bank into a bad bank.
:14:30. > :14:35.Distorting competition on the capital markets, and putting so
:14:35. > :14:39.much risk into the euro system that sooner or later we will have a
:14:39. > :14:47.total collapse. The legal battle begins, the political battle
:14:47. > :14:54.continues, and there is no German guilt that could motivate the
:14:54. > :14:57.illogical and economic policy laid out by Chancellor Merkel. You raise
:14:57. > :15:01.the political issue, when do you think the patience of the German
:15:01. > :15:03.voters will run out with this? The politicians, the mainstream
:15:04. > :15:09.politicians are saying, most Germans want this, they want the
:15:09. > :15:13.euro to survive. This is the only way we can do it? This is totally
:15:13. > :15:18.contrary to the polls, 85% of the Germans disapprove the bailout
:15:18. > :15:22.policy. There are still a number of Germans who say we have helped
:15:22. > :15:29.Greece once, now we have started the first umbrella euro rescue in
:15:29. > :15:33.May, June, 2010, now we are going to beef it up, creating raw tools
:15:33. > :15:39.and allowing the fund and the primary markets to be totally
:15:39. > :15:43.uncompetitive with the pro-hib Biggs of monetary financing data.
:15:43. > :15:51.Some politicians say we need more money, sooner or later popular
:15:51. > :15:57.common sense will bring a limit to the unintelligent eurorescuers who
:15:57. > :16:01.have nothing else to offer, but more debt. More debt will not solve
:16:01. > :16:07.the fundamental problem of the eurozone, which is economic
:16:07. > :16:12.divergance, we are a split between the north and south. That can only
:16:12. > :16:15.be overcome by a monetary split of the eurozone, which reshapes it and
:16:15. > :16:19.gives Greece, Portugal, Ireland and perhaps other countries, the
:16:19. > :16:29.monetary freedom back, the monetary sovereignity back to enable them to
:16:29. > :16:35.make devaluation and to catch up. The footballer, Rio Fredinand, lost
:16:35. > :16:42.a high-profile privacy case in the High Court today. The winsers were
:16:42. > :16:48.Mirror Group newspapers, it had exploits of his sex life. It is
:16:48. > :16:52.seen as a victory for free speech over celebrity. Why did the judge
:16:52. > :16:56.appear to take the decision? This in way, the judge said this was a
:16:56. > :16:59.classic kiss and tell in some respects. A woman who claimed to
:16:59. > :17:04.have a 13-year relationship with Rio Fredinand, the former England
:17:04. > :17:08.capital, sold her story to the Sunday mirror for �16,000. Rio
:17:08. > :17:11.Fredinand himself this was a gross invasion of his privacy, and took
:17:11. > :17:16.action. The judge had to decide between two balancing things. His
:17:16. > :17:21.right to privacy on the one hand, under Article 8 of the Human Rights
:17:21. > :17:24.Act, and the newspapers' freedom of expression, under Article 10. Why
:17:24. > :17:28.did the judge come down on the side of the newspaper, he said there
:17:28. > :17:33.were very specific circumstances about the background to this story.
:17:33. > :17:39.You may remember that Rio Fredinand's predecessor, as England
:17:40. > :17:45.manager, John Terry, he was actually sacked by Fabio Capello
:17:45. > :17:49.for alleged misdemeanors in his private life. I spoke to the media
:17:49. > :17:53.lawyer today about this background. There is a public interest element.
:17:53. > :17:57.Once that is engaged, and not just by Fabio Capello, but also the
:17:57. > :17:59.chief executive of the FA, and also the minister of sport. There was a
:18:00. > :18:05.wider public debate about whether or not Terry should have been
:18:06. > :18:10.sacked for that. Once Rio Fredinand takes the role, he is implicitly
:18:10. > :18:14.saying I'm man of unimpeachable behaviour, therefore I'm fit to
:18:14. > :18:19.wear the England armband. If that proves to be untrue, as it has been
:18:19. > :18:23.shown, then what the newspaper is entitled to do is contribute to
:18:23. > :18:26.that debate. I suppose the big question, which you implied in your
:18:26. > :18:31.answer, is there is specific answers here, whether this is one
:18:31. > :18:36.judgment, one case, or whether we draw some wider lesson from it?
:18:36. > :18:41.There has been an assumption after the phone hacking scandal that we
:18:41. > :18:45.would see some general clampdown on tabloid journalistic standards,
:18:45. > :18:47.more privacy cases, for example. I don't think that is clear. The
:18:47. > :18:51.hacking scandal really centre on criminality, hacking phones is
:18:51. > :18:56.simply against the law. Those cases are quite clear cut. Privacy cases
:18:56. > :18:59.are some what different. The Rio Fredinand case centres very much on
:18:59. > :19:03.the specifics of the case in terms of the public interest. You may
:19:03. > :19:06.remember in 2008, Max Mosley, we will hear from him, one case in the
:19:06. > :19:11.British courts saying his privacy had been invaded, the judge
:19:11. > :19:15.supported him in that. I think now it is too early to say this is a
:19:15. > :19:19.watershed moment. Afterall, the public interest is key, if every
:19:19. > :19:25.single tabloid newspaper had to justify every single-sex scandal on
:19:25. > :19:32.the basis of the public interest, they may be struggling. I'm joined
:19:32. > :19:38.by Max Mosley, who has become a strong campaigner on privacy issues,
:19:38. > :19:41.and the biographer of the book on Ferdinand. How do you see this, in
:19:41. > :19:46.the Mirror people will be very happy with this judgment? It is a
:19:46. > :19:56.brief respite for the tabloids, that is all it is. Times are
:19:56. > :19:57.
:19:57. > :20:01.changing, even in the last couple of years since Max's case. The
:20:01. > :20:06.whole ethos has been rocked by the hacking cases and the types of
:20:06. > :20:10.cases brought by Max and others. The Mirror has won this one, but
:20:10. > :20:14.the only winners are the lawyers. I can't see this being any emphatic
:20:14. > :20:17.victory for newspapers. I don't think it will make a big difference.
:20:17. > :20:20.The biggest differences will happen in the circulations that are
:20:20. > :20:24.plummeting, and the newspapers themselves, whether they survive
:20:24. > :20:28.will be down to those factors. do you see t there is one way of
:20:28. > :20:31.reading it, it is a bit of a setback for privacy and that
:20:31. > :20:37.campaign and a victory for the tabloids? Only in a limited sense.
:20:37. > :20:42.In the end, it depended on its particular facts and the judge's
:20:42. > :20:46.assessment of the facts. That for example Rio Fredinand had held
:20:46. > :20:50.himself up to be somebody of impecable moral standing, a good
:20:50. > :20:55.family man and so on, so the judge attributed importance to that.
:20:55. > :20:58.Personally I wouldn't, I would say as long as he plays football as
:20:58. > :21:02.well as he should the rest is nobody else's business, that is my
:21:02. > :21:05.view. The problem is nobody nowadays can actually sue for
:21:05. > :21:10.privacy, once the story is out, you can never get it made private again.
:21:10. > :21:13.Worse than that, if you sue, it actually costs you money even if
:21:13. > :21:20.you won. If Rio Fredinand had won the case he would have been out of
:21:20. > :21:24.pocket. I was out of pocket with mean despite earning record damages.
:21:24. > :21:28.Some people can afford to do it, some people can't? Exactly, that is
:21:28. > :21:32.what is so wrong. It is completely wrong, even if you have the money,
:21:32. > :21:36.that you should end up out of pocket if you win a case. What is
:21:36. > :21:39.outrageous is 90% of the population couldn't bring a case at all. They
:21:39. > :21:44.have stopped the conditional fee arrangements, which was the one way
:21:44. > :21:48.a person with limited means could bring a case. There is nothing to
:21:48. > :21:52.replace it. So people have no right to justice. This one victory for
:21:52. > :21:56.the Mirror isn't going to change people's perceptions of the
:21:56. > :22:00.tabloids now. Which is sinking fast. I have just written a book called
:22:00. > :22:06.Tabloid Tricks, which is all about the sort of things that I used to
:22:06. > :22:09.get up to as a tabloid journalist, many years before phone hacking.
:22:09. > :22:14.These days it is all out in the open. The case with Ferdinand is
:22:14. > :22:17.different, in a sense, this woman, who decided to tell all, went to a
:22:17. > :22:21.newspaper, voluntarily decided to do it, after the end of her
:22:21. > :22:24.relationship. To be fair, she had the right, if she wished to do it.
:22:24. > :22:27.Even though it breaches somebody else's right, that is the balance?
:22:27. > :22:31.I think we are talking about his fame and whether he should be
:22:31. > :22:36.captain and whether that affected t I think it is about the woman's
:22:36. > :22:40.right. I'm not clear how, not this case, necessarily, but hacking and
:22:40. > :22:45.all these things, have affected the culture within the tabloids?
:22:45. > :22:47.Without doubt, they are terrified. Of what? Prison, probably!
:22:47. > :22:51.irony, at the moment, is phone hacking meant they could get
:22:51. > :22:55.stories without ever having to leave the office, now they are not
:22:55. > :22:59.leaving the office because they are afraid of doing anything to get
:22:59. > :23:03.into trouble. The other argument is to say that you target a particular
:23:03. > :23:06.celebrity, because you find interesting things about him or her
:23:06. > :23:11.sex life. You publicise t and you say that person was a role model,
:23:11. > :23:15.or should have been a role model. You could say that about almost
:23:15. > :23:18.anyone? In the judgment, the judge makes it clear that just because
:23:18. > :23:22.you are famous doesn't mean your sex life can be debated or
:23:22. > :23:25.discussed in public. Of course, the role model argument, actually a lot
:23:25. > :23:29.of confused thinking there. If somebody is a role model, people
:23:29. > :23:33.copy them. You wouldn't want to do something bad. But if you tell the
:23:33. > :23:37.world they are doing something bad, the world tend to copy T it is
:23:37. > :23:43.exactly the opposite of the effect you want. There is a weird logic to
:23:43. > :23:47.that, I agree. In Max's case, he wasn't a famous personality, to be
:23:47. > :23:53.fair to you. Therefore, I see these cases is so different. I think we
:23:53. > :23:59.have seen a whole shrew of cases going against the - slew of cases
:23:59. > :24:05.going against the tabloids, trust me on this, the rest of them won't
:24:05. > :24:10.go against it. The type of journalist, it will continue. Hugh
:24:10. > :24:14.Grant has talked a lot about it, he is to some people a role model, to
:24:14. > :24:19.others a great actor? This is a thin defence, that is my way of
:24:19. > :24:22.looking at it. This is another brick in the wall for the tabloids,
:24:22. > :24:26.isn't it? Even if they are celebrating? Yes, it is another
:24:26. > :24:32.brick in the wall, I have already said it is a brief respite, they
:24:32. > :24:37.are going to - I don't know if they will be here in the next ten years.
:24:37. > :24:40.I don't relish that, times are changing, everything around us is
:24:40. > :24:43.changing and communications are changing. People are beginning to
:24:43. > :24:46.realise the role model argument is completely speechless, then there
:24:46. > :24:50.is the hypocrisy argument, that is also speechless, you should analyse
:24:50. > :24:53.it. The tabloids are in the wrong in this debate, they are the only
:24:53. > :24:57.ones with a voice, the rest of us can hardly ever answer. The fact of
:24:57. > :25:00.the matter, what they are doing is confusing the issue, a fundamental
:25:00. > :25:06.thing is that if you sue for breach of privacy, once it is out in the
:25:06. > :25:10.open, you will never, ever get a proper remedy. The remedy is to
:25:10. > :25:14.stop the thing being published in the first place. With Rio Fredinand,
:25:14. > :25:18.was he wise to push this? I don't think he was very wise to push it.
:25:18. > :25:21.I'm sure a lot of lawyers pushed him into it. I have to say now, he
:25:21. > :25:25.has created more publicity about the case by unfortunately deciding
:25:25. > :25:32.to take legal action. That isn't a defence from doing it. But I just
:25:32. > :25:37.feel he has lost on all counts. Thank you very much.
:25:37. > :25:43.Even the restrictive and highly conservative society of Saudi
:25:43. > :25:48.Arabia is not immune from the ripples of the Arab Spring. King
:25:48. > :25:51.Abdullah's decision to prevent a woman driver from being lashed. It
:25:51. > :25:54.follows the budget that women will be allowed to vote. Millions of
:25:54. > :25:59.Saudi men who have the right to vote don't bother, because there is
:25:59. > :26:09.no elective parliament. So is Saudi Arabia truly on the cusp of real
:26:09. > :26:15.
:26:15. > :26:19.With turmoil all around it in the Middle East, which way is Saudi
:26:19. > :26:26.Arabia heading? The turns in its policy towards women betray a
:26:26. > :26:31.divided society, and uncertain leadership. When a few brave women
:26:31. > :26:33.seized the steering wheel this year, in the only country in the world
:26:33. > :26:38.where female driving was banned, they were mostly cautioned and
:26:38. > :26:43.ignored by police. This week one was sentenced to ten lashes. A
:26:43. > :26:46.decision now revoked by King Abdullah. To the delight of the
:26:46. > :26:51.fellow campaigner who took to the road this summer. We were so happy
:26:51. > :26:57.to hear it, as the king interfered in such a thing, that is a clear
:26:57. > :27:00.message to everybody, don't punish women for doing that. And that
:27:00. > :27:06.means that driving is legal, actually it is not illegal to drive
:27:06. > :27:11.a car. The king's decision came just days
:27:11. > :27:15.after his announcement that Saudi women will have the vote in
:27:15. > :27:19.municiple elections, the only ones the kingdom allows, from 2015. It
:27:19. > :27:23.is part, he implied, of a wider commitment to social reform.
:27:23. > :27:27.TRANSLATION: We refuse to marginalise the role of women, in
:27:27. > :27:32.every aspect of Saudi society. there is a long way to go. As
:27:32. > :27:36.Newsnight reported from saud dough Arabia, earlier this year, - Saudi
:27:36. > :27:40.Arabia, earlier this year, radio and TV newsrooms are one of the
:27:40. > :27:44.only places women are allowed to work alongside men. They need
:27:44. > :27:54.permission of a male guardian for almost all public activity. There
:27:54. > :27:56.
:27:56. > :28:03.is no sign of judicial reform. King Abdullah, if he was serious
:28:03. > :28:11.about reform, he would have said, "I am going to do a serious reform
:28:11. > :28:17.of the judiciary". The judicial, with the 700 judges. And mostly,
:28:17. > :28:21.dominated by the Wahhabi religious establishment, is the biggest
:28:21. > :28:31.obstacle to women's rights, full rights of citizenship in Saudi
:28:31. > :28:34.
:28:34. > :28:39.Arabia. But it's not just clerics, this
:28:39. > :28:42.Saudi woman has become famous for her part in a campaign called My
:28:43. > :28:46.Guardian Knows Best. TRANSLATION: It is just the liberals who don't
:28:46. > :28:50.agree, I don't know what they want. Do they just expect a woman to live
:28:50. > :28:58.without a man? Any so-called liberal I have spoken to has left
:28:58. > :29:04.his wife at home, and it is only other women he wants to liberate.
:29:04. > :29:08.King Abdullah has made a few small steps to advance women's rights, a
:29:08. > :29:12.co-educational university, a female deputy minister, but he's 87 and in
:29:12. > :29:19.poor health. Unlikely to win a battle for change against
:29:19. > :29:26.conservative clerics and hardliners in his own family. Nine years ago,
:29:26. > :29:34.Crown Prince Abdullah, at the time, now king, has said that women, with
:29:34. > :29:40.many conditions, could be driving cars. Women were very elated about
:29:40. > :29:45.this announcement. Two days later his half brother, minister of
:29:45. > :29:50.interior, Prince Niaf, still a minister of interior, said the
:29:50. > :29:58.announcement in the newspapers Saudi women will never, never be
:29:58. > :30:03.allowed to drive cars. Prince Niaf, who some believe may
:30:03. > :30:10.eventually become king, says he sees no need for elections either,
:30:10. > :30:18.let alone women MPs. Meanwhile, even a decree this year to allow
:30:18. > :30:24.women to work in lingerie shops, preventing customers from buying
:30:24. > :30:28.their bras from male assistants was denied. In this most conservative
:30:28. > :30:32.of kingdoms, butressed by its oil wealth, whatever the direction of
:30:32. > :30:38.travel, movement is certain to be slow.
:30:38. > :30:43.Abeer Mishkhas is a Saudi who works for the newspaper Asharq Lal-Awsat,
:30:43. > :30:47.and we have a Sudanese commentator and writer on Muslim women issues
:30:47. > :30:51.who has also lived in Saudi Arabia. How significant do you think the
:30:51. > :30:54.question of maybe women getting the vote, and the way the king stepped
:30:54. > :30:59.in about the woman to be lashed, how important is that? It is very
:30:59. > :31:02.important. The vote, especially, is really an important issue. It means
:31:02. > :31:08.that women finally are getting into the political process and being
:31:08. > :31:13.part of T after years and years of being marginalised, now they are
:31:13. > :31:16.being taken seriously and will be given a role. Now, how significant
:31:16. > :31:21.that role will be depends on the women themselves, they really have
:31:21. > :31:26.to fight to keep what they get right now. How do you see it?
:31:26. > :31:28.is definitely something afoot in Saudi Arabia, three things in
:31:28. > :31:33.succession have happened, the women to drive campaign, the right of
:31:33. > :31:38.women to vote in four years time, and this recent decision to commute
:31:38. > :31:44.the lashing of a woman who had dared to drive, in the past few
:31:44. > :31:47.weeks. However, these are all things that have been hypothetical,
:31:47. > :31:50.nothing has actually happened in real life. Nothing tangible has
:31:50. > :31:54.taken place. Do you think the reaction is to the Arab Spring,
:31:54. > :31:57.that the king and others around him feel they have to do something?
:31:57. > :32:02.Undoubtedly there is a feeling in Saudi Arabia that something needs
:32:02. > :32:06.to happen and needs to be done. I think the Royal Family is slightly
:32:06. > :32:10.panicking about how to pre-empt any kind of serious opposition to it.
:32:10. > :32:15.But, so far we're hearing a lot of words, but no action. Is that a
:32:15. > :32:18.fair point, and also on the voting question, Saudi men could vote
:32:18. > :32:21.today, but many don't bother to register because you can't vote for
:32:21. > :32:24.a parliament, you can vote for local councils, but half of those
:32:24. > :32:28.members are appointed any way. There doesn't seem much point, it
:32:28. > :32:32.seems a process without any result? You are right, I think a lot of men
:32:33. > :32:36.they are not showing up in the polls today. But the thing is I
:32:36. > :32:39.think women will take it as a challenge, because they have been
:32:39. > :32:43.deprived of that right before. And now they want to prove a point, and
:32:43. > :32:47.I think it is going to be significant. I think they are going
:32:47. > :32:52.to make a difference. Is the driving question, is that a big
:32:52. > :32:58.practical issue, or is it just a symbol of something? It is both,
:32:58. > :33:02.actually. It is a very, it is an issue that touches every woman in
:33:02. > :33:08.sud Saudi Arabia. It is really hard to - Saudi Arabia, it is really
:33:08. > :33:11.hard to be able to move around. For a lot of women who have been
:33:11. > :33:15.commenting on the king's latest decrees, they are saying driving
:33:15. > :33:19.can wait a little bit. These issues, we have lots of issues that have to
:33:19. > :33:26.come first, we have priorities, and driving can wait a little bit.
:33:26. > :33:30.would be a real concrete change. You said all these things and nice
:33:30. > :33:33.words, and things are moving. What would be an important change?
:33:33. > :33:38.real concrete change would be to issue licenses to Saudi women, and
:33:38. > :33:42.allow them to drive. That would be something that would be very
:33:42. > :33:45.tangible and erode some scepticism, but there hasn't been any kind of
:33:45. > :33:48.example, physically, where anything has been done. And one thing I
:33:48. > :33:52.would like to mention about the elections, it is in four years time,
:33:52. > :33:57.before women can vote, anything can happen in four years. The current
:33:57. > :34:05.king is very frail, he's old, his successor is older than him, and
:34:05. > :34:09.also quite frail, and the second in line to the throne, Prince Niaf, as
:34:09. > :34:13.mentioned, is very conservative, and has mentioned in the past he's
:34:13. > :34:16.against women voting and against elections, full stop. Four years a
:34:16. > :34:21.long time when you have two octogenarian leaders and one
:34:21. > :34:24.waiting in the wings with a much more conservative bent. What do you
:34:25. > :34:29.make of in the report we heard what would change things profoundly
:34:29. > :34:34.would be reform of the judiciary, the guardianship law, and that sort
:34:34. > :34:39.of thing, is that on the cards? it is talked about a lot, talked
:34:39. > :34:42.about in newspapers, there is a lot of talk about it. Especially the
:34:42. > :34:46.lashing case today, people started talking about how the judiciary
:34:46. > :34:50.should be reformed again. But the thing is, things are happening
:34:50. > :34:55.really slowly. I think people would want to see changes much quicker
:34:55. > :34:59.than that. Isn't there, though an implicit bargain in the society
:34:59. > :35:02.between the Royal Family and the religious leaders, and that is very
:35:02. > :35:05.difficult to bring about the reforms without irritating many of
:35:05. > :35:09.the religious leaders, so it is not going to happen? It is not only the
:35:09. > :35:13.religious leaders. You have to consider that Saudi Arabia is a
:35:13. > :35:19.very conservative company. A lot of people - country, a lot of people
:35:20. > :35:23.take things differently. A lot of people, driving is, in the
:35:23. > :35:28.westernised life, people shouldn't be thinking about it, they want
:35:28. > :35:32.segregation all the time. It is also people in the society that
:35:32. > :35:38.have to be, there is always two sides fighting really in that
:35:38. > :35:43.society. You suggested in a degree of pessimism about this. How do you
:35:43. > :35:49.think this will play out over the next five years? It is not
:35:49. > :35:53.pessimism it is scepticism, anything can happen in the next
:35:53. > :35:56.five years. If there is a legitimate and earnest desire for
:35:56. > :36:01.change in the Royal Family that will filter down. If it is tokenism,
:36:01. > :36:04.and the king trying to create a good legacy for himself, it has
:36:04. > :36:08.shallow roots and we will find ourselves in the same position four
:36:08. > :36:13.years from now. I heard a Saudi rain interviewed on the radio today,
:36:13. > :36:17.he said if you give women the right to drive it will be mini-skirts
:36:17. > :36:21.next and the end of the society? Some people will think that, I know
:36:21. > :36:24.that. The problem is society has to accept it. And I can tell, I don't
:36:25. > :36:27.know, a lot of people following Saudi know that women now go out on
:36:28. > :36:32.the street more than they did before. Now they go out driving,
:36:32. > :36:35.every day there is a case of this woman going out driving. So I think
:36:35. > :36:38.slowly the society will accept the fact that women will be out there
:36:38. > :36:43.behind the wheel and just doing their own things.
:36:43. > :36:47.Thank you very much. Now, one of the biggest hits on the
:36:47. > :36:51.London stage for years, Jerusalem, is about to make a return after an
:36:51. > :36:57.award-winning stint on Broadway. The play was critically acclaimed
:36:57. > :37:01.and much loved by audiences, as was Mark Rylance, in the central role
:37:01. > :37:04.of Johnny Byron. I will talk to him about what the play means about
:37:05. > :37:07.Englishness, and about his reputation as arguably the graith
:37:07. > :37:12.greatest English actor of his generation.
:37:12. > :37:15.Mark Rylance has been called everything from a genius to an
:37:15. > :37:21.eccentric, perhaps in the theatre the one implies a bit of the other.
:37:21. > :37:28.His career as an actor, theatre director, and writer, led to a
:37:28. > :37:32.string of awards and extraordinary accolades, Al Pacino said he made
:37:32. > :37:40.Shakespeare sound as if the Bard had written the words for him the
:37:40. > :37:44.night before. Rylance was the first artistic director of the revived
:37:44. > :37:49.Globe Theatre, which some predicted would be some kind of theme park
:37:49. > :37:53.disSAS te, but Rylance proved them wrong, and turned it into a beloved
:37:53. > :37:59.- disaster, but Rylance proved them wrong and turned it into a boufd
:37:59. > :38:04.institution. The play is very English - beloved institution. The
:38:04. > :38:12.play is very English. Written by Jez Butterworth, Rylance
:38:12. > :38:17.was immediately drawn to the role of the wanted wildman of the woods,
:38:17. > :38:22.Jonny Rooster Byron. You called him a force of nature like a dragon or
:38:22. > :38:25.forest fireworks Rooster is a liar, drug dealer, waster, holding court
:38:25. > :38:32.in a rundown caravan in wilt shirk railing against the authorities who
:38:32. > :38:37.want to move him on. Happy St George's Day, now kiss my begger
:38:37. > :38:42.arse, you puritans. Part of the appeal is that Jerusalem is a comic
:38:42. > :38:46.tale from the edges of society. Pot-smoking hoodies, soulless
:38:46. > :38:53.housing estates, tedious bureaucrats. Murder She Wrote...It
:38:53. > :38:58.Is the deeper themes of the meaning of Englishness, now in the 21st
:38:58. > :39:01.century, pasturised modern Britain, that have engaged the critics and
:39:01. > :39:05.the audiences. Mark is with me now. I will ask you the most difficult
:39:05. > :39:08.question first, why does that play strike such a chord, it is
:39:08. > :39:12.difficult to figure out sometimes, you must have thought about it?
:39:12. > :39:16.suppose I have. I have never been in a play where I have left the
:39:16. > :39:20.theatre at night and found people sleeping on the concrete outside
:39:20. > :39:30.the theatre to get in. It seems the people are hungry for something,
:39:30. > :39:36.and the play feeds that hunger. Jez describes it as a battle of logos
:39:36. > :39:41.and mythos, he says logos is the thing of needing to eat, you need
:39:41. > :39:46.to distract the animal, you hit it on the head and hopefully we can
:39:46. > :39:52.eat, it doesn't work for a long time and you get logos, when you do
:39:52. > :39:56.eventually get to eat, you get mythos, that is the why are we here,
:39:56. > :40:00.what does that mean, where do did we come from and where did we go.
:40:00. > :40:03.The culture at the moment is compressing us to be so logical all
:40:03. > :40:07.the time, all the economic problems. Everyone has debts, you don't want
:40:07. > :40:12.to think about it all the time. It seems like the pressure on people
:40:12. > :40:15.is to be logical and functional all the time, there is a great hunger
:40:15. > :40:20.for something more mysterious. friend of mine said to me before we
:40:20. > :40:25.came on, you know, the character you play is the sort of dodgy bloke
:40:25. > :40:30.that every one of us knows a bit of. You see in the dodgy pub you drank
:40:30. > :40:34.in as a teenager but you don't want to go in any more. There is
:40:34. > :40:39.something about that, that strike as chord? That is why I took the
:40:39. > :40:43.part, I was very impressed by people like that on the edge of
:40:43. > :40:48.town when I was growing up. grew up in the suburbs? In America
:40:48. > :40:52.I grew up, I also spend my summers in Kent. I was always very struck
:40:52. > :40:55.when I would come back from the Midwest of America, surrounded by
:40:55. > :41:05.Coca-Cola executives, to this little village, sitting hurst in
:41:05. > :41:06.
:41:06. > :41:11.Kent. There was a man, Mr Dycehurst, who lived in a flat, he like today
:41:11. > :41:15.dress as a woman, he came down with his dress and wig on, people never
:41:15. > :41:21.picked on him, they used to say hello. It was amazing, maybe
:41:21. > :41:26.because it is an island, there seemed to be more of an acceptance
:41:27. > :41:30.of eccentricity. You have been called an eccentric? Have I?
:41:30. > :41:34.have! It is almost mandatory in a way, for anyone who tries to be
:41:34. > :41:41.creative. Do you think one of the problems in this country, touched
:41:41. > :41:44.on in the play, is we are squeezing out the allowing of people to be
:41:44. > :41:47.eccentric, this marginal life where people are allowed to be slightly
:41:47. > :41:52.weird? I don't think you can make so much money off of people if
:41:53. > :41:56.everybody is independent. If everyone wants Coca-Cola from a
:41:56. > :42:00.different-sized bottle the Coca- Cola doesn't make so much money, as
:42:00. > :42:05.if everyone accepts it all comes in the same bottle. But you know, you
:42:05. > :42:10.look around and no-one is the same. So there is basic problem in my
:42:10. > :42:16.mind, in the organisations that have formed to make money out of
:42:16. > :42:22.selling things. And who we really are, which is independent. Isn't
:42:22. > :42:27.one of the strong things about English people, is they are
:42:27. > :42:32.resistant to change, they don't like being told by the bureaucrats
:42:32. > :42:35.how to do things, they hate it, it strikes a chord about Englishness?
:42:35. > :42:38.I suppose so, when you go to America, there is an excitement
:42:38. > :42:45.about new things in America. There is a little bit more of a cautious
:42:45. > :42:51.here in England. But I feel if you do, in America everyone is your
:42:51. > :42:55.best friend right away, you don't feel you get very deeply into their
:42:55. > :43:00.friendship. Here people hold you off but when they let you in it is
:43:00. > :43:05.more deeply. Why did it work in America, Enron, a great play,
:43:05. > :43:08.Americans didn't like it. With this, they did, this is very English?
:43:08. > :43:14.think it is basically about people who want to stay and have to go,
:43:14. > :43:20.and people who want to go and have to stay. You know, you don't have
:43:20. > :43:24.to believe in the Myan prophesis to realise the way we are living is
:43:24. > :43:28.not really sustainable. Everyone has a consciousness underneath that
:43:28. > :43:32.there are big changes coming. It is hard to change it in ourselves, it
:43:32. > :43:37.is hard for the governors to change T but one is aware it can't really
:43:38. > :43:42.go on like this. We all have a bit of rooster and are living in a wood
:43:42. > :43:50.in way and it doesn't feel like it is going to last very long. I think
:43:50. > :43:55.the play talks so that conscious or unconscious feeling that big change
:43:55. > :43:58.is coming. Just a simple point about you, actually. Is it not
:43:58. > :44:03.exhausting? It is a very fiscal play and you have no understudy, so
:44:03. > :44:07.it is either you or a big hole on the stage I presume! That must be
:44:07. > :44:11.really quite tiring, and quite daunting? People always say that to
:44:11. > :44:15.me. But he's a very defiant character, and maybe that's a nice
:44:15. > :44:20.thing about English people, that they are not to be bossed about
:44:20. > :44:24.easily. Maybe they have been bossed about too much for the few
:44:24. > :44:30.thousands of years. He's so defiant, if I do think for a moment in the
:44:30. > :44:34.performance that I'm feeling tired, Rooster says he has things to say
:44:34. > :44:42.and do. I come out really with a lot of energy. You come out with
:44:42. > :44:46.energy? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I want to do it again. There is such a lot of
:44:46. > :44:51.laughter from the audience, I realise I just don't care so much
:44:51. > :44:57.for film and television because the live thing is so vital. You get it
:44:57. > :45:00.there and then, I'm not talking about Newsnight, I like that?
:45:00. > :45:03.Making them, you know. You have been called, you have been called
:45:04. > :45:09.the greatest actor of your generation, and Jez Butterworth,
:45:09. > :45:13.who wrote the play, says he couldn't imagine it without you,
:45:13. > :45:18.you might as well burn the script. Those are burdens? What does it
:45:18. > :45:23.mean, I'm the greatest liar. I try, I try not to pay attention to that.
:45:23. > :45:27.It could be a burden. But greatest just means different, really, I
:45:27. > :45:31.don't know. Are you glad to be back on the London stage? It is lovely.
:45:31. > :45:35.We can say some of the naughty words we can't say in puritan
:45:35. > :45:45.America. I did hear about that, on that happy note we will leave it
:45:45. > :45:45.
:45:45. > :46:28.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 42 seconds
:46:28. > :46:38.there. That's all from Newsnight tonight.
:46:38. > :47:02.
:47:02. > :47:06.Emily is here tomorrow. From all of Is the heat going to hold on into
:47:06. > :47:09.the weekend I hear you ask. For many of us the answer is yes,
:47:09. > :47:13.though not for all. The weather front in the North West will bring
:47:13. > :47:15.changes to some parts of the UK, it will start to rain across Northern
:47:15. > :47:19.Ireland and western Scotland during the course of the day. But further
:47:19. > :47:22.south and east it is, as you were, more of the same, another hot and
:47:22. > :47:28.sunny day across the heart of England. With temperatures shth
:47:28. > :47:31.shooting up into the mid-to high 20s.
:47:31. > :47:35.Down across the south west of England, a little bit more cloud,
:47:35. > :47:38.fringing into parts of Cornwall, western parts of Wales too. That
:47:38. > :47:41.weather front approaches. Most of the West Country, most of Wales
:47:41. > :47:46.will have a fine and warm day. A different story across the Irish
:47:46. > :47:50.Sea, because it will turn wet for a time across Northern Ireland. Heavy
:47:50. > :47:53.bursts of rain pushing into parts of western Scotland as well.
:47:53. > :47:58.Further east across Scotland, as you can see, it will be another
:47:58. > :48:01.fine and pretty warm day. So, that's the set up on Friday, what
:48:01. > :48:06.about Saturday? Cooler conditions spreading into other parts of
:48:06. > :48:11.northern UK, patchy rain for a time. Further south, the heat holds on.
:48:11. > :48:15.Into early October, and yes, we could break the all-time October
:48:15. > :48:18.record. It will be touch and go for sure. A north-south divide on