:00:09. > :00:19.Worse than it's been for years, and likely to get worse still. Over 2.5
:00:19. > :00:20.
:00:20. > :00:26.million without a job, and every It is sad because I know I'm a hard
:00:26. > :00:29.worker, I do my best, it would be great to find a job. It's my
:00:30. > :00:36.goal.If It is like this before the next stage of the economic crisis.
:00:36. > :00:43.What on earth can be done? The bosses of big selling
:00:43. > :00:49.newspapers come out fighting against further regulation. Both
:00:49. > :00:56.Steve Coogan and Louise Mensch have been dufd up by the tabloids, but
:00:56. > :01:00.both agree they have a case. The Defence Secretary continues his "am
:01:00. > :01:06.I bothered" act, how much longer can he keep it up. I believe that
:01:06. > :01:08.Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and the saviour of mankind. The front
:01:08. > :01:14.runner for the Republican presidential nomination, tries to
:01:14. > :01:24.overcome the criticism that he belongs to a cult. This Texas
:01:24. > :01:24.
:01:24. > :01:29.Pastor will tell us why are Mormon - a Mormon is not fit for the White
:01:29. > :01:34.House. There are more people out of work
:01:34. > :01:37.in this country than at any time in the last 17 years. 2.5 million of
:01:37. > :01:41.them, 8% of the work force. It is one thing to lose their job, it is
:01:41. > :01:44.another type of misery again, to come out of education and find
:01:44. > :01:47.society seems to have no place for you. The picture for youth
:01:47. > :01:54.unemployment is especially bad. There are nearly a million young
:01:54. > :01:59.people without a job. Paul Mason is here. You better give us the gory
:01:59. > :02:06.details. As you say they are 8.1% unemployment, that is a 17-year
:02:06. > :02:09.high. If we drill into the figures, youth unemployment, 21.6%, that is
:02:09. > :02:14.getting towards south European levels of youth unemployment. And
:02:14. > :02:19.there are about a million youth unemployed. Drill down even further,
:02:19. > :02:23.of the jobs lost in the last three months, 178,000, the vast majority
:02:23. > :02:28.were part-time. You start to see loads of women, loads of public
:02:28. > :02:32.sector workers. If we do one more drill down, this is a problem for
:02:32. > :02:40.the Government. Private sector job creation is up in the last three
:02:40. > :02:43.months, public sector job losses, 111,000. What you have is a
:02:43. > :02:47.beginning of a breakdown in the narrative. We were led to believe
:02:48. > :02:50.the public sector job losses would be offset by the private sector job
:02:50. > :02:53.creation. That is why the Prime Minister stood up and said this
:02:53. > :02:58.today. I accept we have to do more to get our economy moving, to get
:02:58. > :03:05.jobs for our people. But we mustn't abandon the plan that has given us
:03:05. > :03:10.record low interest rates. The fact that there hasn't been the take up
:03:10. > :03:15.predicted is to do with growth. Realistically, what can be done?
:03:15. > :03:18.have already plan A plus, which is �75 billion of quantitative easing,
:03:18. > :03:22.credit easing is proposed. That is the Government becoming a proxy
:03:22. > :03:26.lender to small business, we think �10 billion if that ever happens.
:03:26. > :03:32.That is long-term, the debate now in the Government's growth review
:03:32. > :03:35.is whether you can do a big jolt a defibrillation of the economy.
:03:35. > :03:39.There is a whole list of suggestions in tomorrow's New
:03:39. > :03:43.Statesman, through correspondents the Government will respect. It is
:03:43. > :03:48.massive tax cut, through VAT or business tax, or it is some further
:03:48. > :03:53.or more radical version of lending direct to the public. There are
:03:53. > :03:56.calls for state bank. There is a number of employers' organisations
:03:56. > :04:01.thinking about a state investment bank. Ultimately I think the
:04:01. > :04:05.Government cabinet this week discussed things like ripping up a
:04:05. > :04:09.few European regulations. Let nothing get in the way of growth.
:04:09. > :04:12.They have got to come up with something, this is a story of a
:04:12. > :04:16.narrative slightly spiralling out of control. A lot of it is to do
:04:16. > :04:19.with global conditions, conditions at least elsewhere in the world?
:04:19. > :04:22.just happened to be the most globalised of the most developed
:04:23. > :04:25.economies, so it is a problem. When the Government's original austerity
:04:25. > :04:29.plan was thought up in November 2010, they thought there would be
:04:29. > :04:34.growth in Europe and America, and our economy would rebalance,
:04:34. > :04:37.becoming more export orientated and manufacturing orientated because
:04:37. > :04:41.the demand would be there, but the demand is gone. And if it is
:04:41. > :04:45.happening at all it is slow. That is the context in which the
:04:46. > :04:50.political debate fakes place. Even business groups now - takes place.
:04:50. > :04:55.Even the business groups, it is not the rabid left, even business
:04:55. > :04:58.groups are saying let's have a demand stimulus quite soon, please.
:04:58. > :05:02.If the prospects for young people in this country are bleak, imagine
:05:02. > :05:06.what it must be like elsewhere in Europe. In Spain, for example,
:05:06. > :05:12.youth unemployment is running at getting on for 50%. The world the
:05:12. > :05:15.young were educated for no longer exists, that is before the
:05:15. > :05:22.eurocrisis comes crashing through the door like some out of control
:05:22. > :05:25.juggernaut. What started off as a Greek problem
:05:25. > :05:30.has turned into a full blown European crisis. Are politicians in
:05:30. > :05:35.Europe using a pea shooter instead of David Cameron's weapon of choice,
:05:35. > :05:38.a big Baz sook ka. One thing is for sure, unless the big guns arrive,
:05:38. > :05:42.the whole shooting gallery will collapse. Financial markets are
:05:42. > :05:46.convinced that Europe's weaker economies simply won't be able to
:05:46. > :05:49.repay all their debts. In an effort to do exactly that, European
:05:49. > :05:52.Governments have slashed their deficits and forced millions on to
:05:52. > :05:56.the dole queues. Of the three countries already getting a bailout
:05:56. > :06:04.from the IMF and the EU, unemployment has soared, Portugal
:06:04. > :06:10.has 12% out of work, Ireland 14%, and that's rampant job creation
:06:10. > :06:17.compared to Spain's 21% unemployed. How does Portugal with the debt
:06:17. > :06:21.mountain of 93% of national income aim to repay its debts. I was in
:06:21. > :06:30.the position when the external assistance programme was asked and
:06:30. > :06:38.negotiated. I stand in favour of that programme. I knew how the
:06:38. > :06:42.situation was extremely difficult for my country. One of the
:06:42. > :06:49.differences in the Portuguese story is we have a large political
:06:49. > :06:52.consensus in Portugal about this programme and its obligations. 5%
:06:52. > :07:00.of the Members of Parliament, despite the differences you can -
:07:00. > :07:05.85% of the Members of Parliament, despite the differences between the
:07:05. > :07:10.- Government and the opposition, are in favour of the deal with the
:07:10. > :07:14.IMF and other institutions. Unemployment in the UK is at 8%, my
:07:14. > :07:18.guess is the Portuguese Government would love that level of
:07:18. > :07:25.unemployment? It is true, I would love to have that unemployment
:07:25. > :07:30.level. The eurozone would love if it only had an unemployment crisis,
:07:30. > :07:33.apart from millions of people out of work, there is banking cry sai,
:07:33. > :07:37.many of Europe's largest banks simply may not survive. Then there
:07:38. > :07:42.is the issue of where the growth comes from. Even the strongest
:07:42. > :07:45.economy, Germany, has stuttered to a stall in the last few months.
:07:45. > :07:49.Then there is political paralysis, there doesn't seem to be any way
:07:49. > :07:53.for European leaders to get around the table and agree a way forward.
:07:53. > :07:59.That is what President Barroso is, at least, hoping to alleviate.
:07:59. > :08:02.To that end, the EU commission President was hoping today to put a
:08:02. > :08:08.proverbial bomb under eurozone leaders, for example, France and
:08:08. > :08:15.Germany, to solve the crisis. strategy should comprise of five
:08:15. > :08:18.key steps. It should include all potential systemic banks identified
:08:19. > :08:25.by the European banking authority across all member states. It should
:08:25. > :08:31.take account of all sovereign debt exposure in full transparency. It
:08:31. > :08:35.should involve a temporarily higher capital ratio after accounting for
:08:35. > :08:39.exposure. Banks that do not have the required capital should present
:08:39. > :08:44.and then implement plans to have it in place as swiftly as possible,
:08:44. > :08:47.and until they have done so, they should be prevented from paying out
:08:47. > :08:51.dividends and bonuses by the national supervisors.
:08:51. > :08:54.APPLAUSE Three years ago Europe's
:08:54. > :08:59.Governments spent billions, hundreds of billions bailing out
:08:59. > :09:03.their banks. That prevented a financial crisis turning into an
:09:03. > :09:07.outright depression. The problem three years later, as we face
:09:07. > :09:11.another financial crisis is that the Government simply don't have
:09:11. > :09:15.the money. So when the IMF and the European Commission suggests
:09:15. > :09:19.another round of mass recapitalisations, who will pay for
:09:19. > :09:22.it? Where does the capital come from, from the private or public
:09:22. > :09:26.sector. The Germans will stand behind their banks. The French have
:09:26. > :09:30.said we are not sure we can stand behind our banks f someone else
:09:30. > :09:37.could help us out that would be great. If the French do it on their
:09:37. > :09:44.own they will lose their Triple A rating, if they lose that, the ESF
:09:44. > :09:52.can't gear up to 400 billion to 3 trillion. If you don't have the
:09:52. > :09:56.bailout fund, effectively zone as the ESFS, you can't put the money
:09:56. > :10:00.where the mouth is. In many ways the banks are the cause and the
:10:00. > :10:03.cure in this now the second financial crisis. In the boom times
:10:03. > :10:07.Governments borrowed from banks, gave the money to tax-payers, and
:10:07. > :10:10.they hoped would get re-elected. Now though, the banks want their
:10:10. > :10:15.money back and the Governments don't have the money. Perhaps if
:10:15. > :10:19.the banks consider writing off vast swathes of that debt, that would
:10:19. > :10:23.get the Governments off the hook. The only problem is that would
:10:23. > :10:28.collapse many of the banks. Is it fair that many countries are
:10:28. > :10:34.talking about Greece having a bright off, or haircut of 60% of
:10:34. > :10:39.its debts, when Portugal has to pay00% of their debts. I will give
:10:39. > :10:47.you a diplomatic answer, we are focused fully on our commitments,
:10:47. > :10:52.honour our word, and if we do it, we will do our job. I think this
:10:52. > :11:00.will be recognised by markets and international communities. What is
:11:00. > :11:05.the undiplomatic answer? Look, you have to wait. So, over the coming
:11:05. > :11:10.weeks, are eurozone politicians prepared to lengthen dole queues,
:11:10. > :11:15.strangle growth, and risk jobs to preserve a currency constructed in
:11:15. > :11:23.a different era by a different group of leaders.
:11:23. > :11:32.We are joined by our guests, John Micklethwait, and Julia Hodson, an
:11:32. > :11:38.MEP who used to run - Guy Verhofstadt, a an MEP who used to
:11:38. > :11:42.money Belgium. It is going to get worst isn't it? In my opinion the
:11:42. > :11:46.economic fall-out of this debt crisis in Europe is happening. It
:11:46. > :11:51.is not only affecting the eurozone, it is also affecting all the
:11:51. > :11:54.members of the European Union. If you look for an example to the
:11:54. > :11:57.figures, the fiscal deficit in Britain is higher than average in
:11:57. > :12:03.the eurozone. If you look to economic growth, economic growth is
:12:03. > :12:08.lower than the average in the eurozone. The same for the debt
:12:08. > :12:12.ratio is higher than Britain than in the eurozone. I don't think you
:12:12. > :12:18.can see that it is as a consequence of the euro, on the contrary. The
:12:18. > :12:22.problem with the euro is we need as fast as possible to build up an
:12:22. > :12:26.economic and fiscal union besides the monetary union. We understand
:12:26. > :12:29.where you are coming from quite clearly at the moment, we will come
:12:29. > :12:33.to the euro in a second. With the question of unemployment, it is
:12:33. > :12:37.going to get worse, a great deal worse? Yes it is, both in Britain
:12:37. > :12:41.and particularly in the European Union. Because whatever he says, at
:12:41. > :12:44.the moment other economies around the world, China, America, they are
:12:44. > :12:48.not actually worried about Britain, they are worried about the eurozone.
:12:48. > :12:51.Indeed the whole world economy is worried about the eurozone. Unless
:12:51. > :12:55.it actually begins to grow, and begins to actually deal with this
:12:55. > :12:59.debt crisis unemployment will continue to get worse. How much is
:12:59. > :13:03.actually in the hands of any individual Government, the British
:13:03. > :13:08.Government, for example, leaving aside the eurozone for a moment?
:13:08. > :13:12.The British Government is taking measures, and has taken measures to
:13:12. > :13:17.reduce the effect of regulation on business, stimulate the private
:13:17. > :13:21.sector. They are not having much effect, are they? We saw on the
:13:21. > :13:23.report a number of private sector jobs have been created over the
:13:23. > :13:28.last quarter, unfortunately it is not offsetting the number of jobs
:13:28. > :13:32.lost in the public sector. You told us the growth would, you told us
:13:32. > :13:35.losses in the public sector would be compensated by growth in the
:13:35. > :13:40.private sector, that is not the case? There have been half a
:13:40. > :13:47.million jobs created in the private sector in the last 12 months. I
:13:48. > :13:52.don't think we could have forecast the scale of the lack of growth,
:13:52. > :13:56.and the United States has growth worse than our's. All the export
:13:56. > :14:00.markets are under considerable pressure. There is clearly problem,
:14:00. > :14:04.you but I think the Government has some measures to influence it in a
:14:04. > :14:09.positive way f not solve the outright problem. If the eurozone
:14:09. > :14:12.is going to impact badly upon us, there is some argument, for us
:14:12. > :14:17.making a stub substantial generous contribution to the European
:14:17. > :14:21.stability fund? That is the argument, pay to play, I guess Guy
:14:21. > :14:27.Verhofstadt will come in hard on that. The British, in order to have
:14:27. > :14:30.a role in devising this new Europe, they will have to put in some money.
:14:30. > :14:33.One argument is some British people might see is that would give us a
:14:33. > :14:38.voice, and it would certainly provide a much more liberal
:14:38. > :14:45.direction to the way in which gruls Brussels is going. Against that I
:14:45. > :14:48.don't think - Brussels is going, against that I don't think the
:14:48. > :14:52.appreciation would be for us coming in. What do you think of the
:14:52. > :14:58.suggestion that the British should make some contribution, pay to
:14:58. > :15:03.play? I would say it is a very good idea! I don't think it is very
:15:03. > :15:10.realistic. Nevertheless, nevertheless, the reality is that
:15:10. > :15:15.Britain has a huge interest in a sound eurozone. It should think
:15:15. > :15:19.about helping to rescue the eurozone. But the way to rescue the
:15:19. > :15:23.eurozone is a question of creating, as I said already, of an economic
:15:23. > :15:31.and fiscal union. It is nonsense to have a single currency on the one
:15:31. > :15:38.side, and then seven different economic strategies and Governments,
:15:38. > :15:43.- 17 different strategies and economies and bond markets. We need
:15:43. > :15:46.more European integration to rescue this. Spoken like a loyal Belgian!
:15:46. > :15:51.I respectfully disagree. Yes, there will have to be more Europe than
:15:51. > :15:55.there is at the moment. I think everyone pretty much accepts that
:15:55. > :15:59.for the eurozone. There will have to be more. Yes, you will need some
:15:59. > :16:03.kind of bugetry supervision, somebody who will just check if the
:16:03. > :16:07.numbers are correct. And yes, you will probably need some eurozone
:16:07. > :16:10.bank regulation to make sure they cover the whole eurozone rather
:16:11. > :16:17.than just international stuff. Once you jump ahead to full fiscal union,
:16:17. > :16:21.you run into all sorts of problems, not just intellectual ones, but
:16:21. > :16:26.practical ones. You can't even persuade Slovakia to go along, even
:16:26. > :16:30.briefly, on what is a huge deal. What will they think about it in
:16:30. > :16:33.Stourbridge? I think the important thing is Britain won't be a part of
:16:33. > :16:38.this closer fiscal unit. We are fortunate in that we are not in the
:16:38. > :16:44.euro. We will not be a part of that. Nor will we be a part of the
:16:44. > :16:48.bailout. Because we would have to borrow, wouldn't we, in order to
:16:49. > :16:52.fund the weaknesses elsewhere. I think the flaw in the logic. I
:16:52. > :16:56.understand the economic theory of closer fiscal union, to support the
:16:56. > :17:04.single currency, the flaw is the democratic deficit in the argument.
:17:04. > :17:07.As John was saying, Slovakia won't agree. Any country which has to
:17:07. > :17:10.ratified the treaty from an electorate will find it very
:17:10. > :17:15.difficult to get approval. Presumably you believe in the old
:17:15. > :17:19.European practice to simply telling the Slovakians to go back and vote
:17:19. > :17:22.again? Sorry, I didn't understand the question. I suppose you think
:17:22. > :17:28.the Slovakians think they should have another vote until they come
:17:28. > :17:32.to a conclusion you like? No, I think that we need to change the
:17:32. > :17:36.rules in this European rescue fund. It is completely nonsense to
:17:36. > :17:42.continue with the rescue fund based on a unanimity rule, as it is the
:17:42. > :17:50.case today. Because that makes that one political party, in one of the
:17:50. > :17:54.17 European members can block a rescue operation fund. I think we
:17:54. > :17:59.need fight power in the rescue fund, if you want to rescue the euro.
:17:59. > :18:02.First of all, by abolishing the unanimity rule in the rescue fund.
:18:02. > :18:07.And secondly, also, this is very important, by increasing the money
:18:07. > :18:11.that you put in the rescue fun. much? Let's be very honest. I think
:18:11. > :18:17.we have to double at least, maybe to triple the money that is today
:18:17. > :18:22.in the rescue fund, if we want really to stablise the euro. And
:18:22. > :18:25.let me be say one thing as a conclusion, that is that it is the
:18:25. > :18:31.financial markets today, and the stock markets, they were asking for
:18:31. > :18:35.an economic and fiscal union, besides the monetary union. They
:18:35. > :18:40.say if you want the single currency, you need one economic policy.
:18:40. > :18:47.Very quickly from you two here. Barroso is talking today about 440
:18:47. > :18:52.billion, the talk is of 1.2 trillion being needed, what is your
:18:52. > :18:57.guess? My guess is 2 trillion. more? I think that sound like it
:18:57. > :19:04.would tilt the balance against some of the stronger markets losing
:19:04. > :19:10.their Triple A rating who will find this two trillion. We don't want to
:19:11. > :19:16.throw the relatively healthy economies' babies out of the water.
:19:16. > :19:21.You pitch it low, and you come in with an answer bigger than anyone
:19:21. > :19:24.expects, you restore confidence. needs to be close to a trillion.
:19:24. > :19:28.Biggest beasts of the media jungle were prodded out of their dens,
:19:29. > :19:38.they emerged blinking and bad tempered, to put Lord Levenson
:19:38. > :19:42.right on how the media works. The inquiry was set up when the phone
:19:42. > :19:47.hacking story broke by the Prime Minister, the same Prime Minister
:19:48. > :19:53.who put Andy Coulson at his press secretary.
:19:53. > :19:57.They were bothered by three big questions, firstly, do we need a
:19:58. > :20:03.new regulator for the press? Paul Dacre, editor-in-chief of the Daily
:20:03. > :20:07.Mail, didn't think so. I would like to try to persuade this inquiry
:20:07. > :20:10.that self-regulation, although a considerably beefed up form, is, in
:20:10. > :20:14.a country that regards itself as truly democratic, the only viable
:20:14. > :20:20.way of policing a genuinely free press.
:20:20. > :20:24.Secondly, how can one guarantee that free press? Dacre thinks
:20:24. > :20:28.commercial success is the only guarantor of freedom. I would argue
:20:28. > :20:35.that Britain's commercially viable free press, because it is in hock
:20:35. > :20:40.to nobody, is the only real free media in this country. Overregulate
:20:40. > :20:43.that press and you put democracy itself in peril. Finally the
:20:43. > :20:48.question of whether the Leveson inquiry was necessary at all. The
:20:48. > :20:51.former editor of the Sun knocked that on the head. Why do we need an
:20:52. > :20:55.inquiry of this kind? There are plenty of laws to cover what went
:20:55. > :21:01.on. Afterall, 16 people have already been arrested, and my bet
:21:01. > :21:05.is, the numbers may well go up to as many as 30, once the police
:21:05. > :21:11.officers start being rounded up on the corruption allegations.
:21:11. > :21:15.people who are quite familiar with coverage in the Daily Mail are here.
:21:15. > :21:19.The last time Steve Coogan was on the programme, there was a most
:21:19. > :21:27.disparaging piece about him in the Daily Mail a few days after.
:21:27. > :21:31.And Louise Mensch MP, has also featured in that paper on topics
:21:31. > :21:36.such as if she has had plastic surgery and her marriage. Let's
:21:36. > :21:40.take the first question, self- regulation, does it, as was argued
:21:40. > :21:44.by Paul Dacre today work? Manifestly it doesn't work in the
:21:44. > :21:49.form we currently have. It was ludicrous of Mr Dacre to suggest at
:21:49. > :21:55.some length there was no problem there whatsoever. We have to have
:21:55. > :21:59.it massively beefed up and changed. It is entirely facile to say it is
:21:59. > :22:06.all working great. Government regulation or self-regulation?
:22:06. > :22:09.think you must have a free press, but some Government regulation.
:22:09. > :22:15.papably failed in the biggest single test of its existing in the
:22:15. > :22:20.last 12 years with the hacking scandal, it did nothing, the only
:22:20. > :22:25.way it came to the fore, was the tenacity of certain celebrities and
:22:25. > :22:30.the Guardian newspaper who pursued it. And fellow Eurotunnel
:22:30. > :22:33.journalists operating under self- regulation? Those journalists are
:22:33. > :22:39.to be applauded, I don't have a problem with them, it is those who
:22:39. > :22:43.do the muck raking I don't like. you favour the second question that
:22:43. > :22:48.came up, what is the guarantee of the free press, Paul Dacre arked,
:22:48. > :22:51.plausibly, that the best guarantee of a free press is a commercially
:22:51. > :22:55.liable press? A commissionly viable press a free press, led by the
:22:55. > :23:04.market, has led to the hacking of Milly Dowler's phone and the
:23:04. > :23:08.hacking of victims of crimes phones. You also get the Mail being free to
:23:08. > :23:14.name the alleged murders of Stephen Lawrence? That is the one example
:23:14. > :23:19.people use. Wasn't it a brave, good thing to do? It is notable by its
:23:19. > :23:22.singularity. It is the one case that breaks the rule. All the Mail
:23:22. > :23:29.are interested in, are its commercial interest. It is selling
:23:29. > :23:32.newspapers, everything is based on who is shagging who. It is not
:23:32. > :23:36.about trying to expose corruption. That is, as he explained today, was
:23:36. > :23:40.a way of selling newspapers, it helped to sell newspapers and
:23:40. > :23:44.carried the cost of the other stuff. That is not why this occurred, it
:23:44. > :23:49.occurred because victims of crime have been hacked, and self-
:23:49. > :23:53.regulation hasn't worked. It has come about because of the
:23:53. > :23:59.abhoration. People broke the law? It was nothing to do with the Press
:23:59. > :24:04.Complaints Commission that exposed that. You have been a victim of I
:24:04. > :24:10.won't ask you whether you have had plastic surgery or Botox or what
:24:10. > :24:14.you have been accused of. It can be hurtful? It can be, but we are
:24:14. > :24:21.drawing a distinction between the pure tabloid press and the other
:24:21. > :24:25.press. It was the Guardian asking me in an interview ostensibly about
:24:25. > :24:34.my politics if I had a face lift and it was the strap line. That was
:24:34. > :24:40.put there because it is fluff that sells papers. If we want the
:24:40. > :24:45.Telegraph stories, you have to take it, because it gives you a chance
:24:45. > :24:52.to put out what you think. You have to roll with the pitches?
:24:52. > :24:56.depends on the degree. I think whether or not it invades prif vi,
:24:56. > :25:02.I think they are unwitting stoodges of Paul Dacre and the Guardian
:25:02. > :25:06.newspaper. I think the Guardian has to be ashamed, because the face
:25:06. > :25:10.lift piece on conference is not talking about the policies from the
:25:10. > :25:15.conference. That comes from the Guardian and they need to be
:25:15. > :25:18.ashamed. I can talk about Corby being the fastest growing town at
:25:18. > :25:22.the moment, but that won't sell papers, they are interested in
:25:22. > :25:28.fluff. The circulation in all papers plummeting and we have to
:25:28. > :25:32.have one that works. If newspapers exist to basically make money, and
:25:32. > :25:36.the by-product is they occasionally do things laudible and publicly,
:25:36. > :25:40.they make most of their profit from searching through people's rubbish
:25:40. > :25:45.bins, then they deserve to go to the wall. Why does it hurt you?
:25:45. > :25:49.is not about hurting. I'm not here for me, I'm here because of other
:25:49. > :25:55.people, the not famous people, people who are defenceless, who
:25:55. > :25:59.can't afford to go to the courts to defend themselves. The tabloid
:26:00. > :26:03.journalist a few years ago said we ruin people's lives, that is what
:26:03. > :26:07.we do. That is a rare moment of candour from one of the tabloid
:26:07. > :26:11.newspapers. As far as you are concerned they can say what they
:26:11. > :26:14.like about you, you are acting on behalf of others? It has to be in
:26:14. > :26:17.the public interest. If I was someone, I don't think we should
:26:17. > :26:21.roll with the punches, certain questions are legitimate, some
:26:22. > :26:27.aren't. If I went around as a politician and said I was a par
:26:27. > :26:31.gone of virtue and extolling family values, then my personal life would
:26:31. > :26:35.be legitimate because I'm trading on it. I work in comedy, if it is
:26:35. > :26:39.crap, say so, but my personal life has nothing to do with it. Would
:26:39. > :26:48.Paul Dacre like if I looked in his bin or asked him what he got up to
:26:48. > :26:52.in bin, it is none of his business. I think he's being disengenius Paul
:26:52. > :26:56.Dacre, there were 1300 tran actions in his paper, he said people should
:26:56. > :26:59.be free to et ex-directory phone numbers, it was shown by the
:26:59. > :27:03.Independent that part of the blagging example was going after
:27:03. > :27:06.the parents of the Dunblane children, and finding their ex-
:27:06. > :27:11.directory phone numbers through blagging. That can't be justified.
:27:11. > :27:15.We mustn't throw the baby out with the bath water f we make newspaper
:27:15. > :27:20.reports only on good and worthy things, the sad fact of the matter
:27:20. > :27:26.is people won't buy the newspapers. People by the Guardian and the
:27:26. > :27:31.broadsheets. They are not making any money? If the tabloids can only
:27:31. > :27:36.exist by reporting that kind of garbage, that is not a good enough
:27:36. > :27:39.reason for them to exist. You would rather a free press disappear?
:27:39. > :27:45.there are plenty of free newspaper that is don't indulge in that kind
:27:45. > :27:48.of thing that report the news. Times is down 14% year-on-year
:27:48. > :27:51.circulation. You are saying what we have to do is let them basically
:27:51. > :27:56.intrude into people's personal lives. They will have to become
:27:56. > :27:59.more inventive and more creative or be more entertaining. I manage to
:27:59. > :28:03.entertain people without searching through rubbish bins, I don't have
:28:04. > :28:08.to do that. They have to stop the hacking and blagging, people won't
:28:08. > :28:12.put up with it more, and the public understand how they get the stories,
:28:12. > :28:17.but the Mail fluffy kitten stories won't go away, that is the price
:28:17. > :28:23.public figures have to put up with if we want a free press to expose
:28:23. > :28:29.it. If we want the MPs expenses story. The Mail is a newspaper, we
:28:29. > :28:35.choose as the newspaper to be Alan Partridge's favourite paper,
:28:35. > :28:39.because it has contempt for the weak, and zenophobic attitude, and
:28:39. > :28:42.a little England that people drink warm beer and all the corner shops
:28:42. > :28:47.are run by white people. That is not reality, I don't think someone
:28:47. > :28:52.who presents and trades on people's worst fears, as that newspaper does,
:28:52. > :28:56.it panneders to people's worst fears, I don't believe it deserves
:28:56. > :29:00.to exist. If it went to the wall I would be delighted there are lots
:29:00. > :29:04.of better newspapers. It is worse than the tabloids. I have great
:29:04. > :29:10.sympathy with you on the Mail, if not the Daily Mail who? We need
:29:10. > :29:14.somebody out there to sell the papers. The Mail has a certain
:29:15. > :29:18.duplicity to its nature. amusingly said it was half way
:29:18. > :29:25.between a broadsheet and tabloid. will be interested to see what they
:29:25. > :29:28.write about you. If they do I will be pleased. The MP for north
:29:28. > :29:34.Somerset is still our Defence Secretary tonight. Liam Fox has had
:29:34. > :29:41.to cancel a few engagements so he doesn't spend his time answering a
:29:41. > :29:44.question about a man who he says is above reproach of any kind. A trip
:29:44. > :29:47.to Paris today was punctuated by sniping from reporters,
:29:47. > :29:52.demonstrating how few people share his belief that there is nothing to
:29:52. > :29:56.discuss. The questions swirling around
:29:56. > :30:01.Defence Secretary, Liam Fox, and his close friend, Adam Werritty,
:30:01. > :30:06.are around the issue of money. We now know Mr Werritty met Dr Fox on
:30:06. > :30:11.visits abroad on 18 occasions in the past 17 months. Was there any
:30:11. > :30:14.financial gain? How did he pay for his travel expenses? Was he
:30:14. > :30:18.advising clients keen to get access to the minister. REPORTER: In what
:30:18. > :30:23.capacity did he travel with you, unofficial advisor, friend?
:30:23. > :30:28.Dr Fox was in Paris today, keen to deflect the questions. Perhaps the
:30:28. > :30:33.biggest mystery is who funded Adam Werritty and why? The attention is
:30:33. > :30:38.turning to rich donors funding a charity called Atlantic Bridge,
:30:38. > :30:42.which champion the political philosophy of Margaret Thatcher and
:30:42. > :30:46.Ronald Reagan. It was linked to Liam Fox and run by Adam Werritty.
:30:46. > :30:50.This hedge fund manager has reportedly donated thousands of
:30:50. > :30:55.pounds. Was this money, and perhaps other donations effectively paying
:30:55. > :30:59.Mr Werritty. Antic Bridge was removed as a registered charity -
:30:59. > :31:02.Atlantic Bridge was removed as a registered charity a few months ago,
:31:02. > :31:05.because it was said to be promoting a political party close to the
:31:05. > :31:11.Conservatives. Government has to have rules. The taxpayer funds the
:31:11. > :31:18.operation of Government. To have a parallel operation, off the books,
:31:18. > :31:25.privately funded, undid he claird, no transparency - undeclared, and
:31:25. > :31:30.no transparency is worrying. What was Mr Fox's with Sri Lanka, and
:31:30. > :31:35.what were Mr Werritty's aims? Fox had a long standing
:31:35. > :31:39.relationship with Sri Lanka, and his ideas were known as the Fox
:31:39. > :31:43.plan. Last year Adam Werritty and Dr Fox met with the Sri Lankan
:31:43. > :31:47.President in a London hotel. No British officials were present.
:31:47. > :31:52.had a meeting with the President of the Sri Lanka at the same time. I'm
:31:52. > :31:58.well aware of the nature of the meetings. It is in a swith, it is
:31:58. > :32:02.set out - suite, it is set out as if it was in the Sri Lankan
:32:02. > :32:06.Presidential Palace. A substantial number of officials from Sri Lanka.
:32:06. > :32:10.The President of Sri Lanka was not having private meetings. These were
:32:10. > :32:14.very public meetings, I suspect they are recorded on camera. It is
:32:14. > :32:19.Mr Werritty's business interests that could determine the fate of
:32:19. > :32:24.Liam Fox. We know, for example, he has good relations with the
:32:24. > :32:30.Government of Sri Lanka. If it turns out the Sri Lankans are his
:32:30. > :32:33.client and have paid him for lobbying work that could be very
:32:33. > :32:36.serious indeed. If there is money involved will
:32:36. > :32:40.that change things? It is a hypothetical question. In all these
:32:40. > :32:43.things you have to look at the context in which something may or
:32:43. > :32:46.may not happen. To take a particular emphasis on a particular
:32:46. > :32:53.point in a particular way, I think, is a question I'm not able to
:32:53. > :32:59.answer at the moment. Has Liam Fox breached the
:32:59. > :33:03.Ministerial Code? REPORTER: Are you the victim of a witch-hunt?
:33:03. > :33:07.He returned from Paris and will face questions about the spirit and
:33:07. > :33:11.limit of the code. In the section on advisors, it says the
:33:11. > :33:17.Governments will publish every year the names of special advisors and
:33:17. > :33:21.their pay bill. But when is an advisor a formal advisor and when
:33:21. > :33:25.is he just a friend. He muddied his private and public interests in way
:33:25. > :33:29.that was unacceptable. I suspect the biggest charge against him in
:33:29. > :33:35.the end is just massive misjudgment in the way that he has handled his
:33:35. > :33:41.affairs. I think there are errors and misjudgments have been made.
:33:42. > :33:45.But they are not that serious that Liam should have to resign. I
:33:45. > :33:49.actually think has done, not just a good job in the Ministry of Defence,
:33:49. > :33:56.but he has gone over and above the call of duty here. When he came in
:33:57. > :34:02.the budget of that department was a mess, but the huge number of vests
:34:02. > :34:07.interest were there. He has made sense of the Ministry of Defence,
:34:07. > :34:10.he's a tough guy and the right guy to be doing it. Critics believe he
:34:10. > :34:13.has breached the spirit of the ministerial guideline, the latest
:34:13. > :34:17.version of which was endorsed by the Prime Minister only last year.
:34:18. > :34:23.David Cameron wrote then we must be transparent about what we do, above
:34:23. > :34:29.improper influence. That, then, is a benchmark for Liam Fox and Adam
:34:29. > :34:34.Werritty, his mysterious advisor. Could religious bigotry determine
:34:34. > :34:37.the outcome of the next American presidential elections. Front
:34:37. > :34:43.runner to knock Barack Obama out of the White House next year is Mitt
:34:43. > :34:49.Romney, one-time guff nor of Massachusetts. It is not that, or
:34:49. > :34:54.his - guff nor of Massachusetts. It is not that or his chis selled chin
:34:54. > :34:58.that is causing problems, it is because he's a Mormon. Part of the
:34:58. > :35:08.United States thinks being a Mormon is a cult. We will hear from the
:35:08. > :35:14.
:35:14. > :35:19.Pastor who makes the accusation. First this report. Out of the
:35:19. > :35:29.mountains they came, searching for Zion, and in the shadow of the
:35:29. > :35:29.
:35:30. > :35:37.mountains of Utah, the Mormon found it. The church of the Latter Day
:35:37. > :35:44.Saintss prospered, building a city near the great Salt Lake.
:35:44. > :35:50.# I've got hope like a river And here, in Salt Lake City, the
:35:50. > :35:55.church grew rich. But it was always different, other, separate some how,
:35:55. > :36:01.from the country it inhabited. Now one of its own is bidding for the
:36:01. > :36:06.presidency. But that otherness may yet drag his cadidacy down.
:36:06. > :36:12.Mormon is a paradox, both very American, and yet well beyond the
:36:12. > :36:17.American mainstream. Take the Great Trek, depicted partly here.
:36:17. > :36:22.Believers 1300 miles, often in scenes of unimaginable hardship
:36:22. > :36:27.from Illinois to Salt Lake City, in the mid-19th century, to go west,
:36:27. > :36:32.to settle in the frontier, to flee religious persecution, what could
:36:32. > :36:39.be a more American story. But to establish a theocracy that
:36:39. > :36:45.flourished here briefly, and to practice polygamy, abandoned in
:36:45. > :36:49.short order, that brought suspicion from fellow Americans. For Mitt
:36:49. > :36:53.Romney that fear and suspicion became part of his downfall when he
:36:53. > :36:57.ran for the nomination five years ago. He found himself continuously
:36:57. > :37:00.being asked about his faith. He tried to tackle the questions head
:37:00. > :37:05.on. There is one fundamental question about which I'm often
:37:05. > :37:09.asked. What do I believe about Jesus Christ? I believe that Jesus
:37:09. > :37:16.Christ is the Son of God, and the saviour of mankind. Two months
:37:16. > :37:20.later he dropped out of the race. Now, four years on, he is the
:37:20. > :37:25.Republican candidate that Democrats most fear. A politician of the
:37:25. > :37:29.centre right who can reach out to disaffected independents and swing
:37:29. > :37:36.voters. I believe in America, and I'm running for President of the
:37:36. > :37:41.United States. But, again, it has become personal. Last weekend
:37:41. > :37:45.Baptist Pastor, Robert Jeffress, advised a gathering of social
:37:45. > :37:50.conservatives, not to vote for Romney, because in his words, he's
:37:50. > :37:56.not Christian. I would call on governor Perry to repudiate the
:37:56. > :38:00.sentiments and remarks made by that Pastor. Family friend, Jowers,
:38:00. > :38:06.believes the issue has waned in the public consciousness, and second
:38:06. > :38:10.time round Romney is a more rounded figure than the Mormon candidate of
:38:10. > :38:14.2008. As long as people recognise him as the turn around guy for the
:38:14. > :38:19.Olympics, as guff nor and his businesses, and so many other
:38:19. > :38:23.aspects of him. Mormonism is every bit a part of him. I don't think he
:38:23. > :38:26.will ever shy away from that. is a book out now that describes
:38:26. > :38:33.Romney as springing from an historically racist religion, that
:38:33. > :38:36.kind of stuff will keep coming. Yeah, certainly there is, Mormonism
:38:36. > :38:44.is a place where some people will find political advantage, and they
:38:44. > :38:48.will mit it. Would it be easier if he wasn't a Mormon? At this point
:38:48. > :38:58.probably, yes. On the other hand, who knows where he would be without
:38:58. > :38:58.
:38:58. > :39:05.his Mormon faith. On a warm Saturday evening in Utah,
:39:05. > :39:10.two local universities go head-to- head. The game is a 65,000-seat
:39:10. > :39:15.sell-out. The faithful are out in force. The sacred name of Jesus
:39:15. > :39:21.Christ, amen. Brigham Young University, in blue,
:39:21. > :39:26.are playing at home, they remain outsiders. The university was
:39:26. > :39:30.established by and for Mormons. Is there a change in America in its
:39:30. > :39:34.attitude towards Mormons, towards the Mormon religion? I think the
:39:34. > :39:38.Mormon religion is getting more well known, people know more about
:39:38. > :39:41.the church. As far as being mainstream, I think people still
:39:41. > :39:44.consider us different, and not Christian. But I think they
:39:44. > :39:48.appreciate our values and appreciate what we do for the
:39:48. > :39:53.country. If Romney becomes the candidate, even the President, does
:39:53. > :39:56.that change things forever, for Mormonism? You know I don't know if
:39:56. > :40:00.it is going to change things forever, people will still have
:40:00. > :40:08.their perceptions, they may think Romney is weird, if they think we
:40:08. > :40:14.are weird. It will be, in the south, that
:40:14. > :40:19.Romney's faith could face an early challenge. South Carolina holds the
:40:19. > :40:22.nation's second primary. This Bible Belt state has proved Romney's
:40:22. > :40:27.undoing before. One in four Americans say they are less likely
:40:27. > :40:32.to vote for a Mormon, amongst white evangelicals, that rises to one in
:40:32. > :40:35.three. A good showing here is critical for
:40:36. > :40:40.Mitt Romney, as a northern candidate, Romney needs to show
:40:40. > :40:44.that he can do well, here in the south. But South Carolina is
:40:44. > :40:51.particularly dangerous territory for Romney. It was here in 2008
:40:51. > :40:55.that he was uncertificate moanously crushed. It is - uncermoniously
:40:55. > :41:00.crushed. It is home to the dark arts of political campaigning, and
:41:00. > :41:06.home to an evangelical Christian comuep community with little time
:41:06. > :41:13.for Mormons. Professor Mark Tompkins understands voting in the
:41:13. > :41:19.Bible Belt, and how some Baptists view the Mormon faith. Do they see
:41:19. > :41:23.it as heresy? Cult is the word that they use more often. It conjures up
:41:23. > :41:28.the ideas of the cult leaders telling everybody else what to do,
:41:28. > :41:34.they are making these unusual demands on people in the name of
:41:34. > :41:42.faith. And the Mormon faith doesn't sound inconsistent with that story
:41:42. > :41:46.at first blush. The wife of Texas governor, Rick Perry, Romney's only
:41:46. > :41:50.real rival for the nomination comes to town to open a campaign office.
:41:50. > :41:54.Mitt Romney's political opponents have enough policy differences with
:41:54. > :41:58.him to ignore the religious question. But a representative from
:41:58. > :42:03.up state, where the evangelical community is concentrated,
:42:03. > :42:07.acknowledges the potential problem. I look at a person's record, and
:42:08. > :42:11.governor Perry has simply got an outstanding record in the state of
:42:11. > :42:14.Texas. For people faith is important? Absolutely it is. In
:42:15. > :42:21.some areas. There are two things that people in South Carolina
:42:21. > :42:31.learned a long time ago, if you are at a dinner protect, don't discuss
:42:31. > :42:33.
:42:33. > :42:38.two subjects, religion and politics. # Till me meet
:42:38. > :42:42.The Mormon journey has been a long one. Once outcast, feared and
:42:42. > :42:45.derided for their beliefs and customs, they have risen to the top
:42:45. > :42:50.of American business and politics. Now, one of their number is
:42:50. > :42:56.reaching for the highest summit of all, his faith may well be his
:42:56. > :43:02.undoing, but if he succeeds, another taboo will have fallen, and
:43:02. > :43:07.an era of suspicion and ignorance will have come to a close. A short
:43:07. > :43:12.while ago I spoke to Pastor Robert Jeffress from Dallas. I asked him
:43:12. > :43:16.what his problem was with Mormonism? Mormonism has never been
:43:16. > :43:21.considered a part of mainstream Christianity, it is not a problem
:43:21. > :43:24.to Mormons, the only problem is he's trying to confuse it with
:43:24. > :43:29.Christianity. Mormonism came 1800 years after Jesus Christ and the
:43:29. > :43:34.church was established. It has its own human founder, Joseph Smith, it
:43:34. > :43:38.has its own set of doctrines and book of revelation, The Book of
:43:38. > :43:43.Mormon. When I tacked about Mormonism being a cult, I was
:43:43. > :43:46.talking about a theological cult. Those attributes I mentioned
:43:46. > :43:53.qualify it as a theological cult. I think Mormons are good people and
:43:53. > :43:58.moral people, but Mormonism is not Christianity. What do you fear if a
:43:58. > :44:04.Mormon got the presidency? I don't fear anything if a Mormon got the
:44:05. > :44:08.presidency. The fact is, I have said that if the Republican
:44:08. > :44:12.candidate end up being Mitt Romney, I probably would vote for him over
:44:12. > :44:17.Barack Obama. But when I talked to the values voters summit in
:44:17. > :44:21.Washington, and I introduced Governor Rick Perry, I was speaking
:44:21. > :44:25.to evangelical Christians, Jeremy, and I said given the choice between
:44:25. > :44:29.a competent Christian, and a competent non-Christian, Christians
:44:29. > :44:34.often to prefer a competent Christian. And Mitt Romney is not a
:44:34. > :44:39.Christian, although he says he believes in Jesus Christ? Well, I
:44:39. > :44:42.mean lots of people believe in Jesus Christ, it is what you
:44:42. > :44:45.believe about Jesus Christ that determines whether or not you are
:44:45. > :44:48.going to heaven or hell when you die. The Bible says whoever calls
:44:49. > :44:53.upon the name of the Lord will be saved. Jeremy, I don't think
:44:53. > :45:00.anybody goes to heaven or hell in a group. We all go individual lie,
:45:00. > :45:05.based on what have decided to do with Jesus Christ as our saviour. I
:45:05. > :45:09.was saying if Romney is a Mormon and embraces the Mormon faith, that
:45:09. > :45:13.is not Christianity. What is interesting is Mormons have said
:45:13. > :45:17.all along that they were not a part of historic Christianity. They say
:45:17. > :45:23.that the Christian church was corrupt from the time of the
:45:23. > :45:26.apostles, until 1829 when Joseph Smith came, they have never
:45:26. > :45:35.embraced historical Christianity by their own admission. What will
:45:35. > :45:38.happen to Mr Romney when he dies? have no idea. If he has trusted in
:45:38. > :45:44.Jesus Christ, the Jesus Christ of the Bible to save him from his sins,
:45:44. > :45:48.he will be in heaven. If he has trusted some other God or no God,
:45:48. > :45:54.he will spend ecertainty separated from God, like all of us will. The
:45:55. > :45:58.Bible says all of us are sinners, not just Mormons, Catholics,
:45:58. > :46:04.Baptists, we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God,
:46:04. > :46:08.we all need Jesus Christ to be our saviour. Can you ever imagine
:46:08. > :46:15.America tolerating an atheist President? Absolutely I can. I
:46:15. > :46:22.think that's very possible. A Jew? Absolutely. A Muslim? I think that
:46:22. > :46:26.could. A Muslim? Yes. All of these things are possible? Absolutely.
:46:26. > :46:29.Because the article 6 of our constitution says there shall be no
:46:29. > :46:35.religious test to hold public office. But I'm quick to remind
:46:35. > :46:39.viewers across the pond here, that refers to Government cannot impose
:46:39. > :46:42.a religious litmus test. It has nothing to say about private
:46:43. > :46:48.citizens deciding to choose a candidate based on their religion.
:46:48. > :46:53.We have every right to do so. In fact, the first Chief Justice of
:46:53. > :46:57.our Supreme Court, John Jay, also the author of the Federalist Papers,
:46:57. > :47:03.said, "we have the duty and the privilege in this Christian nation
:47:03. > :47:06.to select and prefer Christians as our leaders". So the first Chief
:47:06. > :47:10.Justice of the United States believed that it was not bigotted
:47:10. > :47:14.to say it is right to prefer Christians over non-Christians.
:47:14. > :47:18.Mr Jeffress thank you for joining us, thank you.
:47:18. > :47:25.It's good to be with you, Jeremy. Well that's quite enough for one
:47:25. > :47:31.day. I will give the editor of the day his nightly glass of milk, he's
:47:31. > :47:40.confused, not as confused as Phoenix Jones, he used pepper spray
:47:40. > :47:50.to try to break up what he thought was a street fight, but the police
:47:50. > :48:17.
:48:17. > :48:21.say it was dancing. Look huge fight. We still have a residue of cold air
:48:21. > :48:24.in Scotland and north-east England, chilly here first thing in the
:48:24. > :48:29.morning, milder elsewhere underneath the cloud. For most of
:48:29. > :48:33.us a cold start. The cloud lifting and thinning any rain petering out.
:48:33. > :48:36.Some will see sunshine, predicting where, that is the trick. It looks
:48:36. > :48:39.cloudy across northern England but dryer in the afternoon. Not as
:48:39. > :48:42.chilly as today. Brightening up throughout the afternoon, across
:48:42. > :48:44.East Anglia, not through the Midland or the south-east of
:48:44. > :48:48.England, but through the West Country that could be a favoured
:48:48. > :48:52.spot to see sunshine in the afternoon. For most of the day
:48:52. > :48:55.Devon and Cornwall could be cloudy, drizzle up for a while over the
:48:55. > :48:58.moors. For Wales the north coast and the marshes could see sunshine
:48:58. > :49:03.during the afternoon. It should be dry as well, it has been a much
:49:03. > :49:08.better day in Northern Ireland. Again it should be dry tomorrow,
:49:08. > :49:11.sunshine near the north coast. Sunny spells around the Moray Frith,
:49:11. > :49:15.and Aberdeenshire, it might brighten up in the central belt.
:49:15. > :49:20.Not as cold as it has been. Temperatures rising over the next
:49:20. > :49:23.few days to 17 degrees in Edinburgh. Further south, we will see a lot of
:49:23. > :49:28.cloud on Thursday, not much sunshine, better chance of seeing
:49:28. > :49:32.sunshine I think on Friday, as the cloud begins to break up as we