:00:07. > :00:11.Good evening. It's not much to look forward to, because we can all
:00:12. > :00:18.expect to get old and when that happens, there is apparently no
:00:18. > :00:23.guarantee we will be treated well. Four and nine, 49. This, it seems,
:00:23. > :00:27.can be as good as it gets. In half the hospitals of England, might not
:00:27. > :00:30.even be fed properly does this reflect a broader culture of
:00:30. > :00:36.contempt for older people in Britain.
:00:36. > :00:39.How do you think older people are treated these days? They are
:00:39. > :00:44.forgotten, once you reach retirement and you retire, that's
:00:44. > :00:48.it, you are more or less forgotten. Is the best to hope for to be
:00:48. > :00:55.laughed at? Oh, I do not believe it. Look at this.
:00:55. > :00:58.The Labour MP who went to jail for fiddling his expenses believes he
:00:58. > :01:01.was scapegoated. In his first television interview, I will be
:01:01. > :01:10.asking if he really expects public sympathy.
:01:10. > :01:14.Are you any less likely to put this sort of stuff in your mouth if
:01:14. > :01:24.someone in authority tells you that you need to think about your health.
:01:24. > :01:28.
:01:28. > :01:36.The Defence Secretary says it is back to business as normal, is it?
:01:36. > :01:45.The figures, the scenes described the testimony of families all add
:01:45. > :01:50.up to a hugely - hospitals breaking the law in their so-called their.
:01:50. > :01:54.There is much talk of improved training and better monitoring. Is
:01:54. > :02:00.the real problem a question of our changed attitudes to old age. It
:02:00. > :02:03.will come to all of us, as the Israeli Prime Minister, Golda Meir,
:02:03. > :02:08.once commented, it is like a plane going through a storm, once you are
:02:08. > :02:13.aboard, there is nothing much you can do.
:02:13. > :02:19.Four and nine, 49. If life really is a lottery, then what kind of a
:02:19. > :02:23.result is it for you when 65 and 70, and even higher numbers start
:02:23. > :02:25.coming around. On the one hand we are living longer. On the other, it
:02:25. > :02:30.is no thanks to the way some hospitals have been treating the
:02:30. > :02:34.elderly. Today's Care Quality Commission
:02:34. > :02:40.survey found that 40% of the hospitals in England didn't offer
:02:40. > :02:44.what they called dignified care. One incontinent patient was left
:02:44. > :02:48.unwashed for 90 minutes, despite calling for help. Doctors were
:02:48. > :02:51.having to prescribe drinking water to make sure patients got a drink.
:02:51. > :02:57.And food was being delivered while patients were asleep, taken away
:02:57. > :03:01.before they woke up. People expect, quite rightly, that when they go
:03:01. > :03:07.into hospital, they are treated with dignity, and the very basic
:03:07. > :03:11.things of food and water are available to them, in an
:03:11. > :03:15.appropriate way. It is fundamental to getting well again. One of the
:03:15. > :03:22.hospitals that came out worst from the survey was this one in Sandwell,
:03:22. > :03:26.in the West Midlands. Managers have now closed the worst ward. They
:03:26. > :03:30.claim close to blaming the problem on the wrong kind of patients.
:03:30. > :03:32.are quite clear that in the end, that we found that the combination
:03:33. > :03:38.of patients that the nurses, particularly on the ward, were
:03:38. > :03:45.being required to deal with, wasn't working. That was why, in the end,
:03:45. > :03:49.we decided to split the ward. I'm not making excuses for the failings
:03:49. > :03:51.the CQC have found, you have to look at it more deeply, that is why
:03:51. > :03:55.we have taken the radical action we have. Most of us probably look
:03:55. > :03:59.forward to pottering about in retirement, doing a few odd jobs,
:03:59. > :04:02.but on the basis of what we have been hearing today about the lot of
:04:02. > :04:10.the elderly in our society, there is clearly something nasty in the
:04:10. > :04:16.wood shed. Half of the population aged over 75
:04:16. > :04:21.now live on their own, and half of those aged over 65 think of the
:04:21. > :04:26.television as their main companion. One in ten in that age group says
:04:26. > :04:35.they feel lonely. Are we just packing the elderly off out of
:04:35. > :04:39.sight? Sometimes that is just what they want. Hello chaps.
:04:39. > :04:42.The men in sheds are a bunch of retired chaps in South-East London
:04:43. > :04:49.who like nothing better than getting out of the house and into
:04:49. > :04:53.this workshop, set up by the charity Age UK. It is the banter,
:04:53. > :04:57.the innuendo, the little jokes, tongue-in-cheek, that is what you
:04:57. > :05:03.miss from when you pack up work. You miss your colleagues, the
:05:03. > :05:09.banter, what happened yesterday and the football match, the wife's not
:05:09. > :05:12.interested in that. How are older people treated these days? You are
:05:13. > :05:16.forgotten, once you reach retirement and you retire, that is
:05:16. > :05:21.it, you are more or less forgotten. The women have the Women's
:05:21. > :05:27.Institute, there is not a lot for men, then you go down the working
:05:27. > :05:32.mens' club, but you finish up as an alcoholic. John Jones, who is 72,
:05:32. > :05:36.says he's the first here and the last to leave. He lives on his own
:05:36. > :05:40.since his partner died last Christmas. This is a life saver for
:05:40. > :05:44.me, without it I don't know what I would have done. A life saver. Do
:05:44. > :05:49.you miss work? Yes, I would go to work tomorrow. A proper full-time
:05:49. > :05:53.job? Roofing I used to. Do I would go roofing tomorrow, but they won't
:05:53. > :06:00.let me. Could you still roof, if that is the verb? Yeah. The trouble
:06:00. > :06:03.s when you are past 65 you can't get the insurance. Too often we
:06:03. > :06:07.ignore what older people can contribute to society, even if they
:06:07. > :06:10.are not active or at work. That is not recognised. You think about the
:06:10. > :06:14.millions of people who are providing care to a loved one or
:06:14. > :06:17.relative, not getting paid, doing it out of love and compassion and
:06:18. > :06:24.kindness. If we think about the hundreds of thousands of older
:06:24. > :06:28.people who are volunteering day in and day out, and keeping a lot of
:06:28. > :06:34.our services and community groups going. What happened to respecting
:06:34. > :06:41.our elders? Yes, Bruce Forsyth is still on television with Strictly.
:06:41. > :06:47.Nice to see, to see you. Nice. Other famous senior, like the
:06:47. > :06:51.former Liberal Democrat leader don't get off lightly. I'm Menzies
:06:52. > :06:57.Campbell, the only politician with "do not resus say the" on the soles
:06:57. > :07:00.of his slippers. We wish these south London pensioners a hearty
:07:00. > :07:06.retirement, but more and more of us have a long time to go before our
:07:06. > :07:13.numbers are up. How we are going to spend it, and how we will be
:07:13. > :07:16.treated, has become an unswervable dilemma. With us now are the
:07:16. > :07:20.Conservative minister, David Willetts MP, who recently wrote a
:07:20. > :07:25.book about the babyboomer generation, and also Baroness
:07:25. > :07:30.Warner, a moral philosopher, who falls comfortably into the category
:07:30. > :07:36.of an older citizen, and Emma Soames, editor of Saga Magazine,
:07:36. > :07:40.and right on the cusp. What do you think has happened to the way we
:07:40. > :07:46.treat our older people? All sorts of things. It is partly to do with
:07:46. > :07:51.the falling apart of the traditional family. Some families
:07:51. > :07:55.work their grandparents to death, practically, looking after their
:07:55. > :07:59.grandchildren. And involve them enormously. But I fear for the
:07:59. > :08:04.grandparents of those families, for instance, in that recent report,
:08:04. > :08:08.where they said that parents are chucking toys at their children
:08:08. > :08:12.because they don't want to spend time with them. If they can't spend
:08:12. > :08:17.time with their children, God help their parents. Do you get a sense
:08:17. > :08:22.in some cases families are effectively dumping old people on
:08:22. > :08:25.the state? I think that actually within the family there is quite a
:08:25. > :08:29.lot of exchange that goes on between the generations. In a way
:08:29. > :08:32.what's happened to the society, is the family is the remaining place
:08:32. > :08:36.where the different generations mix up. In general, our society is
:08:36. > :08:39.increasingly divided by age. We tend to work with people of the
:08:39. > :08:45.same age group, the housing tends to be with people of the same age
:08:45. > :08:50.group, the family is the only space where the intergenerational
:08:50. > :08:56.exchanges survive. How did we get to this point, there used to be a
:08:56. > :09:00.time when wisdom was prized and age of venerated, and now it is
:09:00. > :09:07.completely the reverse, youth is venerated? I think wisdom was
:09:07. > :09:10.prized, it was a bit of a myth really that. I know in ancient
:09:10. > :09:15.Greece wisdom was supposed to be prized, I don't know it was prized
:09:15. > :09:22.all that much later than that. But, there was a different social
:09:22. > :09:26.surrounding in the family. So that the aged could usually, often be
:09:26. > :09:32.taken in and taken on as part of the family. And had a role to play.
:09:32. > :09:40.I think the lonely people that we hear about, are people who don't
:09:40. > :09:42.have anything to do, and nothing to think about, and have no role.
:09:42. > :09:47.grandfather, Winston Churchill, became Prime Minister for the first
:09:47. > :09:53.time at the age of 65, it is inconceivable nowadays? Well, yes,
:09:53. > :09:58.sadly, it is a reflection on the ageism of our society, rather more
:09:58. > :10:02.than the ability of an enormous number of 65-year-olds. The other
:10:02. > :10:09.that is happening, is old people are increasingly fiercely
:10:09. > :10:14.independent. And then they get slightly hoist on their own pretard
:10:14. > :10:18.when they centre their fourth age rather than their third age. They
:10:18. > :10:23.don't want to be a burden and want to look after themselves. Suddenly
:10:23. > :10:27.they find themselves in hospital, on their own, and needing support.
:10:27. > :10:33.There are going to be more and more old people around, we're all going
:10:34. > :10:38.to get old and hang around, and you will be around another 20 year, but
:10:38. > :10:44.a lot of old people around. How does society begin to adjust to
:10:44. > :10:49.this big change, David Willetts? Sorry, one thing I think is that at
:10:49. > :10:54.a superficial level, and agreeable level, people are extremely kind
:10:54. > :10:58.and nice to the old. I now recognise myself as old, at last,
:10:58. > :11:02.but going around London, for instance, I find people enormously
:11:02. > :11:07.helpful, and always offering to carry a suitcase or do I want help
:11:07. > :11:13.up the stairs, and what not. I'm absolutely amazed by how agreeable
:11:13. > :11:17.young people are. And also, how they like to talk. So going around
:11:17. > :11:21.London, where I now live for the first time, find myself surrounded
:11:21. > :11:27.by people I don't know, who are extremely nice to me. And I love
:11:27. > :11:31.them and get on with them. But I think there is a huge difference
:11:31. > :11:36.between that and caring for them in the serious sense, then they are
:11:36. > :11:40.really helpless. There is a huge gulf between respecting and liking
:11:40. > :11:43.the old and caring for them. think we should remember a lot of
:11:43. > :11:46.older people want to contribute, that was one of the main things
:11:46. > :11:50.that came across in the quick report earlier. We know that old
:11:50. > :11:54.people care about the future, they care about their kids and grand
:11:54. > :11:58.kids. Sometimes we get in the way. There is a charity that tries to
:11:58. > :12:02.link up older people with spare ruem rooms and younger people
:12:02. > :12:06.looking for housing. What is one of the biggest problems they face,
:12:06. > :12:10.they say the older people are vulnerable adults and they should
:12:10. > :12:14.only have a younger tenant after they have a Social Services check.
:12:14. > :12:18.It is these things that get in the way of these connections, when
:12:18. > :12:24.older people want to give something and receive something in exchange.
:12:24. > :12:30.Have you any further practical suggestions? What we should do is
:12:30. > :12:33.try to find places where different people miss. In education, the FE
:12:33. > :12:39.college, where you have an older person and a younger person in
:12:39. > :12:42.class together, that works better. We should look at wherever there is
:12:42. > :12:46.an assumption where you have to keep different age groups apart
:12:46. > :12:49.because one is a threat to the other, we should challenge that.
:12:49. > :12:55.need a fundamental shift don't we? We need intelligent social design.
:12:55. > :13:01.There are pockets of it. We need incredibly good local networks. I
:13:01. > :13:08.should know, I live on a treat with about 50 houses in it, it is not
:13:08. > :13:13.huge, I should know every single person over 80 in that treat. I
:13:13. > :13:16.should be informed so if - in that street, I should be informed so I
:13:16. > :13:19.could hold out a friendly hand and have them to tea. They are amongst
:13:19. > :13:25.us but hidden. I'm sorry to be brutal about this, the reason
:13:25. > :13:33.people don't do that, is because they don't find old people, either
:13:33. > :13:37.easy, or congeejal. That's the base - congenial, that is the basis of
:13:37. > :13:41.it. People are very busy, both parents tend to work, they are
:13:41. > :13:44.extremely occupied. Old people, you know, in the eyes of many people,
:13:44. > :13:48.they hang around, cluttering up the place and you all have to get on
:13:48. > :13:53.with your lives? Who would be running the Oxfam clothes shop if
:13:53. > :13:59.it wasn't for older people. Who would be doing what's left of Meals
:13:59. > :14:05.on Wheels. If it wasn't for the WVS, which is womaned by ladies in tweed
:14:05. > :14:10.skirts. It is fantastic. You know what I'm getting at? I would say
:14:10. > :14:13.even the simplest and narrowest form of selfishness, how we treat
:14:13. > :14:17.older people today is how we will be treated in the future. All the
:14:17. > :14:20.things will come back to us. Just as we have an obligation to young
:14:20. > :14:23.people, and the obligation we discharge to young people will be
:14:24. > :14:28.how we, in turn, will be treated. Once people think through those
:14:29. > :14:31.obligations in the generations, behaviour improves. There are
:14:31. > :14:36.intergenerational tensions too, young people are having a very hard
:14:36. > :14:42.time of it now, are they really going to welcome the idea that more
:14:42. > :14:46.resources be diverted to caring for older people, who have had it
:14:46. > :14:52.consistently improving throughout their lives? I don't think they
:14:52. > :14:59.should or they will. I think that fundamentally we ought to be much
:14:59. > :15:02.more open about dying, because I think old people ought to be used
:15:02. > :15:07.to the fact that they are approaching death. I particularly
:15:07. > :15:11.think that the medical profession is add fault here. Because doctors
:15:11. > :15:14.really aren't interested in dying, once you know somebody is either
:15:14. > :15:22.very old or terminally ill or something, doctors rather stand
:15:22. > :15:27.back. But actually I think their role ought to be to talk to aged
:15:27. > :15:32.people and make them realise that there is a difference between a
:15:32. > :15:37.good death and lingering on. Encourage people to say, to make a
:15:37. > :15:41.living will, for instance, and say if I get pneumonia, please don't
:15:41. > :15:45.give me antibiotics. If more people did that I think there would be far
:15:45. > :15:50.fewer of these wretched people in hospital, with which we started.
:15:50. > :15:55.There is a difference between the problem of people being shamefully
:15:55. > :15:59.neglected in hospital, and people being lonely in their own houses.
:15:59. > :16:06.Loot of people will find that idea pretty tricky and offensive,
:16:06. > :16:11.frankly? Yes, the word that most, I find most offensive in what lady
:16:11. > :16:16.Warner said was the word - Lady Warner said was the word "ought",
:16:17. > :16:24.it is an option, we all know it is there. We don't. Well, gof has had
:16:24. > :16:29.an awful lot of, Dignitas has had an awful lot of publicity. I don't
:16:29. > :16:32.think there there should be an "ought" in it. We need compassion,
:16:32. > :16:37.and compassion can be taught. You can't just say we have a lot of old
:16:37. > :16:40.people we better get rid of some of them. That is absolutely right.
:16:40. > :16:46.Compassion very often means allowing somebody to die, rather
:16:46. > :16:50.than struggling to keep them alive. But I think, in way, this is the
:16:50. > :16:56.fundamental question, that so many old people in hospital are being
:16:56. > :17:01.kept alive against their will. Emma Soames's point is crucial,
:17:01. > :17:04.compassion can be taught. We should not allow the wider points to
:17:04. > :17:08.exclude these cases that staff in hospitals should have been doing
:17:08. > :17:11.better. It is now two-and-a-half years
:17:11. > :17:15.since the Telegraph started publishing details of the claims
:17:15. > :17:19.some politicians were making against the taxpayer. The
:17:19. > :17:22.prosecutions aren't over, but four former MPs and two members of the
:17:22. > :17:27.House of Lords have been sent to prise son. One of the convicted
:17:27. > :17:34.politicians, the Labour member for Barnsley Central, Eric Illsley, was
:17:34. > :17:36.sentenced to a year in prison, but was released early. He was
:17:36. > :17:40.Barnsley's Labour MP for 23 years, he became a prison inmate in
:17:40. > :17:43.February this year. Not a moment too soon for some of his
:17:43. > :17:53.constituents. I think it is disgusting, I really do. He
:17:53. > :17:58.deserves everything he gets. Yet he had stood for parliament and
:17:58. > :18:00.within returned with an 11,000 majority, after committing the
:18:00. > :18:04.offences to which he would plead guilty. Mr Illsley claimed that he
:18:04. > :18:08.had been unfairly singled out for criminal investigation. When
:18:09. > :18:13.charges were laid, after he had retained his seat, the Labour Party
:18:13. > :18:19.expelled him. But he clung on, as an independent MP, and only
:18:19. > :18:24.resigned from the Commons two days before he entered jail. His
:18:24. > :18:30.offence? Fiddling his bills, falsely claiming for insurance,
:18:30. > :18:34.repairs and council tax for years. He admitted stealing over �14,000
:18:34. > :18:39.from the taxpayer. In May this year, he was released from prison, three
:18:39. > :18:44.months into a year-long sentence, to live at home under curfew.
:18:44. > :18:50.The judge at his trial said he had tarnished the reputation of both
:18:50. > :18:53.the politicians and of parliament. Eric Illsley, you accept that it
:18:53. > :18:57.was right that you were tried and it was right that you were
:18:57. > :19:02.punished? I pleaded guilty, I accepted what was coming to me. I
:19:02. > :19:05.pleaded guilty and got on with it. I'm not expected public sympathy,
:19:05. > :19:09.as you questioned in the introduction. I have never sought
:19:09. > :19:14.that. The point I want to make when I accepted your invitation to do
:19:14. > :19:17.this interview, is to try to explain to the public just how few
:19:17. > :19:22.MPs were actually investigated by Scotland Yard. Let alone prosecuted.
:19:22. > :19:26.Only a handful of MPs were investigated, hundreds of MPs were
:19:26. > :19:30.allowed to repay quite large sums of money secretly. Do you think
:19:30. > :19:33.everyone should have been allowed to do that? I think there should
:19:33. > :19:37.have been some fairness within the system, either parliament should
:19:37. > :19:40.have been allowed to deal with everyone, including me, and other
:19:40. > :19:50.colleagues who were prosecuted, or Scotland Yard and the Crown
:19:50. > :19:51.
:19:51. > :19:56.Prosecution Service should have dealt with everyone. They only
:19:56. > :20:02.looked at a few cases. Just because they didn't try and convict
:20:02. > :20:06.everyone who committed the crime, doesn't mean some shouldn't have
:20:06. > :20:11.been tryed and convicted? general public could easily think
:20:11. > :20:21.that those of us who were prosecuted were the worst offenders,
:20:21. > :20:25.clearly we weren't. �1.5 million was repaid by MPs by the May 2010
:20:25. > :20:28.general election, by hundreds, only a handful of cases were prosecute.
:20:28. > :20:32.You have conceded you were wrong and were right to have been tried
:20:32. > :20:37.and right to have been punished. You are saying not enough MPs were
:20:37. > :20:41.punished? If you like, or looked at or investigated by the same
:20:41. > :20:49.authorities that investigated me. Do you feel shame? Of course. Of
:20:49. > :20:53.course I do. Why did you do it? at the time, and when I say "we", a
:20:53. > :20:57.lot of MPs claimed the allowance as an allowance, as an annual amount
:20:57. > :21:01.for the upkeep of a second home and living in London, and claimed
:21:01. > :21:06.towards the maximum. You knew it was dodgy? I think everybody knew
:21:06. > :21:11.it was dodgy. The system had been discredited time and time again,
:21:11. > :21:16.and there were...That Is no excuse? I'm not looking for an excuse, I'm
:21:16. > :21:21.not saying what I did wasn't wrong. I pleaded guilty, I put my hand up
:21:21. > :21:25.and said what I did was wrong. My point is, if hi done that, surely
:21:25. > :21:30.Scotland Yard or the Crown Prosecution Service should have
:21:30. > :21:34.looked at every other case of those MPs who did exactly the same as me.
:21:34. > :21:38.Why do you think they decided to act against you and only handful of
:21:38. > :21:47.others? I have no idea, I have never been told that. I have no
:21:47. > :21:54.idea why or what criteria they used for selection. I have no idea why I
:21:54. > :21:58.don't know the handful of MPs were investigated that were investigated.
:21:58. > :22:02.For every MP prosecuted there is a parallel case of another MP or a
:22:02. > :22:06.few MPs, who have been allowed to repay in secret and carry on with
:22:06. > :22:12.their careers. How many MPs were on the take? I went through the
:22:12. > :22:16.expenses claims of all 650 or so MPs. I checked every one. And I
:22:16. > :22:20.listed 120 who had claimed in exactly the same way as I had.
:22:20. > :22:25.think there should have been over 100 prosecuted? Or investigated at
:22:25. > :22:29.the very least, by the authorities who investigated, in the thorough
:22:29. > :22:34.way I was investigated. Do you feel the experience of going to prison
:22:34. > :22:38.did you good? No. Why not? I don't think it achieved anything. It
:22:38. > :22:42.punished me, obviously, I was deprived of my liberty and sent to
:22:42. > :22:46.prison. How were you treated in jail? Reasonably well, quite well.
:22:46. > :22:50.I wasn't treated any differently from anyone else, I have not been
:22:50. > :22:56.leased early as such, I have been released in the same way as any
:22:56. > :23:02.other prisoner would have been in the same category and the same
:23:02. > :23:07.circumstances as I was. As far as your current financial arrangements
:23:07. > :23:12.concerned, are you getting the MPs' pension? I'm ecomomically inactive
:23:12. > :23:17.at the moment. It will be hard to find work or employment in the
:23:17. > :23:23.future. Are you looking? Not at the moment, no. But I'm not testing the
:23:23. > :23:27.water yet. What is your pension worth? That is for me and the
:23:27. > :23:30.pensions authorities. It is not great. The taxpayer is paying you a
:23:30. > :23:35.pension despite what happened? much reduced pension because of my
:23:35. > :23:45.age and circumstances. But not all of that pension was achieved during
:23:45. > :23:49.
:23:49. > :23:54.my employment as a member of Parliament. Listen up you fatties,
:23:54. > :23:58.if the Newsnight audience are prepentive as a whole, then we are
:23:58. > :24:02.over 50% of us obese. In some European countries Governments are
:24:02. > :24:06.tackling what everyone recognises is a health timebomb by regulating
:24:06. > :24:08.or taxing food manufacturers, as we do with cigarettes. But the British
:24:08. > :24:13.Government announced today it believes instead of asking us all
:24:13. > :24:17.to have a little think about what we eat and to stop guzzling so much
:24:17. > :24:24.junk. Our science editor is here. Talk us through this?
:24:24. > :24:30.Government is saying we should, essentially, eat less, quite a lot
:24:30. > :24:34.less. Five billion calories aday across England. Which is the -
:24:34. > :24:40.calories a day across England. Which is 500 million cheese burgers.
:24:40. > :24:44.Few people would disagree with that as a health message. But there is a
:24:44. > :24:54.strong reaction that in tackling obesity it is not enough in the
:24:54. > :25:17.
:25:17. > :25:20.scale of the problem. If we look at That's the scale of the problem.
:25:20. > :25:27.This strategy is designed to deal with it. The emphasis is very much
:25:27. > :25:31.on personal responsibility, and the contentious bit is that the food
:25:31. > :25:37.industry is being asked only, well encouraged to take action, to
:25:37. > :25:40.reduce fat, sugar, calorie content from food. Very much in emphasis on
:25:40. > :25:43.voluntary action rather than legislation. That is not wholly
:25:43. > :25:48.surprising, the Government has always said it wanted to work with
:25:48. > :25:52.industry. Back in March the Health Secretary said let's have these
:25:52. > :25:56.responsibility deals on public health. He set up five networks
:25:56. > :25:59.dealing with food, alcohol, physical activity, health at work,
:25:59. > :26:09.behaviour change. He's working with companies, who have to make pledges
:26:09. > :26:11.
:26:11. > :26:15.that they will take action. Some of The Government argues we need those
:26:16. > :26:19.people, they have the expertise, the power to make changes. Critics
:26:20. > :26:22.are worried that they shouldn't be anywhere near health policy.
:26:22. > :26:26.Government should set policy because the policies could end up
:26:26. > :26:30.hitting their profits. What has been the reaction to this strategy,
:26:30. > :26:34.as such it is? It hasn't been wholly supportive today. Quite a
:26:34. > :26:37.lot of critical voices saying it is all very well to ask people to take
:26:37. > :26:41.personal responsibility, but you are ignoring how difficult it is to
:26:41. > :26:50.do that. We are bombarded with adverts for food all the time, fast
:26:50. > :26:58.food is everywhere. We are all seeding sedintary lifestyles. They
:26:58. > :27:01.pointed back - living sedintary lifestyles. They pointed back to
:27:01. > :27:05.policy, they said you needed sufficient intervention by
:27:05. > :27:10.Government, so you are looking at taxes on fatties and sweet food,
:27:11. > :27:13.you are looking at retructions and marketing.
:27:13. > :27:20.Professor Philip James is President of the Interational Association for
:27:20. > :27:26.the studio of obesity, and Dr Susan Jebb is a nutrition scientists at
:27:26. > :27:29.the medical research group. Is this approach going to work?
:27:29. > :27:35.Almost certainly not on the basis of the evidence and all the
:27:35. > :27:40.analysis. Apart from what we have just heard from the Lancet, the
:27:40. > :27:44.OECD, the inter-governmental think- tank in Paris, they did very
:27:44. > :27:48.meticulous an allies of the economics of the disaster that is
:27:48. > :27:53.to - analysis of the economics of the disaster to come, and it
:27:53. > :28:00.required fundamental changes in the food supply, as well as physical
:28:00. > :28:06.activity. What is gained by not adopting a more agrossive strategy?
:28:06. > :28:10.We may well - Aggressive strategy? We may well make progress faster.
:28:10. > :28:15.Food companies find a lot of time finding loopholes and getting round
:28:15. > :28:19.it, if we can get them constructively engaging with the it
:28:19. > :28:24.of it, we can make quicker and further progress by regulation.
:28:24. > :28:28.There you have? They have been sabotaging every single public
:28:28. > :28:34.health initiative for the last 30 years. If you talk to the top food
:28:34. > :28:37.companies, and you ask them how they increased their profits, it is
:28:37. > :28:40.by marketing, manipulating the price and getting their food
:28:40. > :28:44.absolutely everywhere. Therefore, they are very worried, that if you
:28:44. > :28:48.tackle those key things, that is going to affect the bottom line.
:28:48. > :28:53.They are much better off in this sort of vague interaction and so on.
:28:53. > :28:58.Are you thinking of adopting a similar strategy with cigarette
:28:58. > :29:02.manufacturers? I'm responsible for food, not smoking. You believe in
:29:02. > :29:07.it as far as obesity goes, why not believe it as far as cigarettes go?
:29:07. > :29:09.Let's clarify what I do, I'm the independent chair of the Food
:29:09. > :29:13.Network, which brings industry and public health officials together.
:29:13. > :29:17.My job as the chair is to try to get the best possible deal out of
:29:17. > :29:21.that structure for public health. It doesn't preclude regulation, but
:29:21. > :29:25.that is the strategy which is in place, and we need, for the sake of
:29:25. > :29:32.public health, to try to make as much progress as we can. As an
:29:32. > :29:37.acknowledged expert in this field, do you really believe that Kraft,
:29:37. > :29:41.McDonalds, KFC and business za hut r they qualified to - Pizza Hut,
:29:41. > :29:45.are they qualified to advise on the subject? We are not asking them to
:29:45. > :29:50.advise, we are asking them to reduce the calorie content, by
:29:50. > :29:54.reducing portion size and fat content. I can't do that, the food
:29:54. > :29:57.industry has to change their products. It is have difficult to
:29:57. > :30:02.think how to regulate to make - it is very difficult to think how to
:30:02. > :30:05.regulate to make that happen. are difficult cash-strapped types,
:30:05. > :30:10.people are already having - times, people are already having
:30:10. > :30:15.difficulty making ends meet, to put tax on fat and sugars and the like,
:30:15. > :30:19.is simply going to increase the cost of food, why should should
:30:19. > :30:22.people be expected pay for more it? That is the key point in the
:30:22. > :30:26.current financial crisis. It is very clear that everybody, except
:30:26. > :30:32.the rich, change their food purchases when you change prices.
:30:32. > :30:37.You actual lie don't have to increase or de- actually don't have
:30:37. > :30:40.to increase or decrease the price. Analysis done in Denmark shows you
:30:40. > :30:44.have marked changes in food intake with very small changes in price.
:30:44. > :30:47.But actually if you want to tackle this properly, and we went into
:30:47. > :30:52.this with the Health Select Committee, years ago. You actually
:30:52. > :30:56.need to, as with alcohol, and tobacco, and those are used more by
:30:56. > :31:00.the poorer people, it is regressive. Taxes are regressive, but you have
:31:00. > :31:05.to compensate that with an economic strategy, and that is exactly what
:31:05. > :31:09.they are doing in Denmark. How long are you prepared to give
:31:09. > :31:12.it? It is not that question, my job is to get the best out of it we
:31:12. > :31:16.possibly K what is important in all the pledges we have in the food
:31:16. > :31:19.network, it is a commitment to monitoring and evaluation. We have
:31:19. > :31:24.to be able to see that progress is being made. I really welcome the
:31:24. > :31:27.fact that. Within what time? takes time. We are monitoring these
:31:27. > :31:31.things on an annual basis, we will see the progress. What is important
:31:31. > :31:37.is there is a plan B. It is interesting that ministers have
:31:37. > :31:41.indicated they are very viewing the international evidence to consider
:31:41. > :31:43.what it is. If I was to say it is clear from the strategy that what
:31:43. > :31:47.has happened sensible health- conscious people, advising the
:31:47. > :31:50.Government, have been nobbled by the food companies what do you say?
:31:50. > :31:56.I don't think there is any evidence for that. No evidence at all, you
:31:56. > :31:59.really believe that? I do. I sit on that Food Network Panel, we have
:31:59. > :32:05.half-a-dozen people from the food industry, five or six people from
:32:05. > :32:07.the public health sector, we have the faculty of public health and
:32:07. > :32:11.the Scientific Advisory Committee on Nutrition. What we have today is
:32:11. > :32:16.the Government setting out a clear mandate to set out clear action.
:32:16. > :32:22.They are setting the policy but asking industry to do the delivery.
:32:22. > :32:26.Susan is trying to cope. We, my team saw Andrew Lansley before the
:32:26. > :32:29.election, he understood all we were talking about. Who comes in
:32:29. > :32:33.somebody we haven't heard about called David Cameron, saying forget
:32:33. > :32:38.about it, this is all personal responsibility, I will have nothing
:32:38. > :32:44.done that in any way impairs the British food industry. We better
:32:44. > :32:49.hope that you are wrong and voluntary measures will work.
:32:49. > :32:53.remarkable initiative if it is true, it hasn't happened anywhere else.
:32:53. > :32:56.This isn't just about regulation, we need better treatment. We have
:32:57. > :33:00.60% of adults already obese. This strategy is absolutely set out, not
:33:00. > :33:04.only to prevent more people getting fat, but to encourage us to take
:33:04. > :33:12.some real action to actually help those who have got established
:33:12. > :33:17.obesity problems. Thank you very much. With the
:33:17. > :33:21.nights drawing in, it is time to get a woolie sweater, it is
:33:21. > :33:28.available to the 93 high street branches of Edinburgh Woollen Mill.
:33:28. > :33:34.It says "designed in Scotland 100% cashmere". What the label doesn't
:33:34. > :33:39.say is it wasn't actually made in Scotland, but approximately 4,000
:33:39. > :33:47.though-odd miles away, in among goalia, by North Korean workers -
:33:47. > :33:52.Mongolia, by North Korean workers. Edinburgh, tradition, the castle,
:33:52. > :33:57.the little craft shops where tourists can buy quality products,
:33:57. > :34:02.woven in Scotland, like cashmere sweaters. Then there is Edinburgh
:34:02. > :34:06.Woollen Mill, one of the UK's largest clothing chains, with 500
:34:06. > :34:16.locations around Britain. I have picked up one of their popular
:34:16. > :34:16.
:34:16. > :34:19.sweaters for �70, marked down from �140. The label says James Pringle,
:34:19. > :34:24.100% cashmere, designed in Scotland. What it doesn't say on the label or
:34:24. > :34:31.on the website, is where it was made. If you thought it was woven
:34:31. > :34:36.by skilled Scottish craftsman, you are in for - craftsmen, you are in
:34:36. > :34:43.for a surprise. They come from a little further away.
:34:43. > :34:47.# I would walk 1,000 miles # Just to be that man that walked
:34:47. > :34:53.# A thousand miles # Just to fall down at your door
:34:53. > :34:58.I have come to the other side of the world to find out exactly what
:34:58. > :35:03.EWM's cashmere sweaters are made. It turns out it is here, in
:35:03. > :35:07.Mongolia, in an industrial zone on the outskirts of the capital.
:35:07. > :35:12.They are very happy and proud to be working with Edinburgh Woollen Mill.
:35:12. > :35:17.They have joined us about five years ago. We have worked together
:35:17. > :35:22.to develop the prok ducts and the quality, and to - products, and the
:35:22. > :35:25.quality, and to teach us how to be good export manufacturers.
:35:26. > :35:31.Mongolian shepherds are some of the most prolific producers of cashmere.
:35:31. > :35:36.It is no surprise that the wool is sourced here. What is rather
:35:36. > :35:42.unexpected is that many of the workers at the cashmere factory in
:35:42. > :35:46.Mongolia come from North Korea. The North Korean workers fill in
:35:46. > :35:51.very well with Mongolian people, they are hard workers, they don't
:35:51. > :35:54.complain and get stuck in, they are quite skill. They are looked after
:35:54. > :35:58.by the company, they have a dormitary, food, showers,
:35:58. > :36:03.television. They fit in very, very well.
:36:03. > :36:07.They get food and board, but there is a mystery about what happens to
:36:07. > :36:10.their wages. At the factory, we were told that the company paid the
:36:11. > :36:15.North Korean Government, not the workers directly. This is the final
:36:15. > :36:20.process, the section where all the cleaning, pressing, ironing,
:36:20. > :36:24.quality control. Then the labelling. Can you show me one of the ones
:36:24. > :36:33.that might be going to the UK? can have a look over here and we
:36:33. > :36:37.can see one already packed. This is a James Pringle EWM sweater,
:36:37. > :36:42.machine washable. Exactly the same as the one we bought in Edinburgh,
:36:42. > :36:48.even down to the labelling. Designed in Scotland, but made in
:36:48. > :36:54.Mongolia, by North Koreans. Which is strange, because North
:36:54. > :36:58.Korea isn't exactly known for its stylish knitwear. North Korea is
:36:58. > :37:03.better known for making missiles and testing nuclear weapons, in the
:37:03. > :37:08.face of United Nations sanctions. It is the most regimented and
:37:08. > :37:12.repressive regime on earth. 200,000 are held in concentration camps for
:37:12. > :37:15.incurring the wrath of the leader. And North Korean citizens aren't
:37:15. > :37:21.allowed to leave the country without permission, and can be
:37:21. > :37:30.executed if they are caught fleeing. There is an exception, though, the
:37:30. > :37:33.labour brigades. In 2009, I revealed on Newsnight, a
:37:33. > :37:38.British-owned company that was using North Korean labour gangs to
:37:38. > :37:44.cut timber in Russia. The money for the wages was paid directly to the
:37:44. > :37:47.North Korean Government. They are earning up to $7 million a year,
:37:47. > :37:50.that is going to the North Korean Government, are you concerned about
:37:50. > :37:54.how the North Korean Government use that is money? As far as the
:37:54. > :37:58.agreements we have in place, the money is going through to the
:37:58. > :38:02.Ministry of Forestry of North Korea. As for what it is use the for in
:38:02. > :38:06.North Korea is not - used for in North Korea is not of our interest.
:38:06. > :38:10.While I was in Mongolia, visiting the factory that makes sweaters for
:38:10. > :38:13.Edinburgh Woollen Mill, I came across this construction site.
:38:13. > :38:17.There are about 50 North Korean construction workers in the pit
:38:17. > :38:20.below me. It is where they eat, sleep and work. Because the
:38:20. > :38:23.Mongolian security guards have instructions not to let them out
:38:23. > :38:26.beyond the fence. Thousands of North Koreans have been brought to
:38:26. > :38:30.Mongolia over the last few years, in an arrangement that has been
:38:30. > :38:33.very profitable for the private companies that are exploiting their
:38:33. > :38:39.ultra cheap labour. The question is, how much are the North Korean
:38:39. > :38:44.workers benefiting themselves? A Mongolian running a kiosk next
:38:44. > :38:49.door to the construction site, told me he initially thought the North
:38:49. > :38:53.Koreans were prisoners because they were never let off the site. When I
:38:53. > :38:56.went back to the factory where they make sweaters for Edinburgh Woollen
:38:56. > :39:00.Mill. The director of exports told me that their North Korean workers
:39:00. > :39:04.were treated much better, they were allowed to leave the factory. What
:39:04. > :39:08.about their wages? He said they paid the North Korean Government,
:39:08. > :39:11.it was up to them to decide how much they gave the workers. I
:39:11. > :39:16.understand that usually with North Koreans you pay the Government and
:39:16. > :39:26.the Government pays them, is that correct? We are transfering the
:39:26. > :39:39.
:39:39. > :39:45.So North Korea was effectively exporting its work force to raise
:39:45. > :39:51.money for the regime. So is this factory which makes EWM sweaters
:39:51. > :39:56.effectively subsidising the lead he, I'm back in Scotland - the leader.
:39:56. > :40:00.I'm back in Scotland to see if they are happy about the North Korean
:40:00. > :40:03.connection. They agreed the factory in Mongolia supplies them with
:40:03. > :40:06.jumpers, and said they were made by a work force, including North
:40:06. > :40:12.Koreans. To my surprise, Edinburgh Woollen Mill, did not confirm what
:40:12. > :40:16.we had been told about how the North Koreans were paid. They said
:40:16. > :40:21.they were told to fund were paid to North Korea or any North Korean
:40:21. > :40:23.agency. That is in stark contrast to what we were told on the ground
:40:23. > :40:26.which was the North Korean Government was getting money from
:40:26. > :40:31.there. They say all the wages are paid
:40:31. > :40:36.into the workers' bank accounts, again, that's difficult to square
:40:36. > :40:39.with what we have been told in Mongolia. The company says the
:40:39. > :40:49.North Koreans are people who freely left the country who-to-look for
:40:49. > :40:52.
:40:52. > :40:58.Again, that's difficult to reconcile with a nation which
:40:58. > :41:04.executes people for trying to flee the country. I wanted to talk to
:41:04. > :41:08.the North Koreans at the cashmere factory, but the embassy said no.
:41:08. > :41:11.I wanted to ask how much they earned personally from the
:41:11. > :41:17.arrangement. Then factory officials stopped us filming and escorted us
:41:17. > :41:21.outside. Edinburgh Woollen Mill told us
:41:21. > :41:25.labelling garments made in Mongolia as designed in Scotland is
:41:25. > :41:31.factually correct. Although there is no longer a legal requirement to
:41:31. > :41:35.label clothes with their country of origin. It is an offence to mislead
:41:35. > :41:45.customers about where a product is made. The Trading Standards
:41:45. > :41:54.
:41:54. > :41:58.Now the Defence Secretary, Liam Fox, was unable to turn out for the
:41:58. > :42:02.keel-laying ceremony for one of the most powerful submarines built in
:42:02. > :42:08.Britain today. Logistical reasons, he said, had he been there he would
:42:08. > :42:11.have trailed the claque that has followed him after questions were
:42:11. > :42:21.raised about the precise relationship he had with friend,
:42:21. > :42:25.Adam Werritty, who described him self - himself as an "advisor", his
:42:25. > :42:30.charity is now defunct. The doctor was out and about today,
:42:30. > :42:34.brisk on his rounds, saying all was well. We are at the end stage,
:42:34. > :42:38.possibly, of the Libyan conflict. I have just had a discussion with the
:42:38. > :42:42.Foreign Secretary. The conflict that is far from ended is the one
:42:42. > :42:46.over the special relationship with Dr Fox's best friend. We have been
:42:46. > :42:50.examining their involvement in a controversial charity.
:42:50. > :42:55.Atlantic Bridge was set up by Liam Fox to promote another special
:42:55. > :42:59.relationship, that between the UK and the US. Four years ago Fox
:42:59. > :43:05.installed Adam Werritty to run the Bridge. By the time the charity was
:43:05. > :43:09.wound up this year, he had been paid some �0,000.
:43:09. > :43:14.Atlantic Bridge ran into trouble with its activities during
:43:14. > :43:18.America's health care debate. The charity, in the eyes of a Labour
:43:18. > :43:24.Party blogger, were breaking the rules. I first came across the
:43:24. > :43:32.Atlantic scam bridge in the summer of 200 - Atlantic Bridge, in the
:43:32. > :43:39.summer of 2009, when President Obama was campaigning. They used
:43:39. > :43:45.the NHS as a test case of what can go wrong with health care. This was
:43:45. > :43:50.buyia, and when Lady Thatcher attended a dinner by Atlantic scam
:43:50. > :43:54.bridge for a medal. One of the former trustees denies it had a
:43:54. > :43:59.political tilt. Not true, there was plenty across the spectrum. We were
:43:59. > :44:03.very concerned about that. wasn't politically right-wing?
:44:03. > :44:12.not an expert on American politics, but, yes, there are plenty. And
:44:12. > :44:17.there are plenty in Britain, and on the left is Lord Asquith, not very
:44:17. > :44:21.left-wing and one of my colleagues. He is a Tory peer and Conservative
:44:21. > :44:24.ministers. I was just very surprised to discover they were a
:44:24. > :44:28.charity. I was aware that charities aren't allowed to be party
:44:28. > :44:33.political. And so I started thinking, and the more I dug on,
:44:33. > :44:36.the more obvious it was to me they were a charity and political
:44:36. > :44:40.organisation. They described their aim to bring the special
:44:40. > :44:43.relationship back to where it was under Thatcher and Reagan. All of
:44:43. > :44:46.their advisory board members were Conservative MPs, and closely
:44:46. > :44:49.linked with the Conservative Party. So I wrote to the Charity
:44:49. > :44:55.Commission, to alert them to my concerns.
:44:55. > :44:59.On the advisory board of Atlantic Bridge was George Osborne, William
:44:59. > :45:03.Hague, Chris Grayling, Michael Gove and Liam Fox. In America, too, the
:45:03. > :45:08.Bridge people were overwhelmingly Conservative and Republican. The
:45:08. > :45:14.Charity Commission investigated. While these investigations were
:45:14. > :45:18.going on, Atlantic Bridge Inc, the American operation, was mindful the
:45:18. > :45:21.whole show was under threat. When the chief executive extoled the
:45:21. > :45:25.wonders of David Cameron, before the UK election last year, she
:45:25. > :45:29.stressed she was speaking in a private, personal capacity, the
:45:29. > :45:36.Bridge couldn't be party political. Other leading Tory ministers have
:45:36. > :45:41.come over and have made a point of seeing Democrats as well as
:45:41. > :45:47.Republicans. As indeed they should. Are they making any headway there?
:45:47. > :45:51.Think so. But who funded Werritty's trips with the doctor. When he
:45:51. > :45:56.stayed in Dubai, he reportedly cited his company as Atlantic
:45:56. > :46:01.Bridge. Atlantic Bridge is transnational thing, there is
:46:01. > :46:06.another organisation in the US that continues to this day called
:46:06. > :46:10.Atlantic Bridge. One former Atlantic Bridger in America said
:46:10. > :46:18.they had paid not one time for Werritty's travels, and described
:46:18. > :46:23.the situation as a "bloody mess". Amanda Bowman who we met last year,
:46:23. > :46:29.is running Transatlantic Bridge, and refused to speak on camera. But
:46:29. > :46:33.did talk about the happy amateurism of the Werritty era. He's closer to
:46:33. > :46:39.Liam than anyone in the world, except his wife. It is hard to
:46:39. > :46:44.characterise their relationship, if you want to smell test Mr Fox on
:46:44. > :46:49.any situation, Werritty was the go- to guy.
:46:49. > :46:54.Liam Fox was still single minded in his job today, and is still holding
:46:54. > :46:59.on to his job. I'm doing what is needed today, the Defence Secretary
:46:59. > :47:04.focuses on defence. The Times tomorrow claims that Mr Werritty
:47:04. > :47:09.was funded by a private was funded by a private
:47:09. > :47:19.intelligence group. The Telegraph has news Dr Fox and
:47:19. > :47:24.Adam Werritty attended a $500 dinner, which was not declared.
:47:24. > :47:29.The Mirror has an extraordinary story about Oliver Letwin, the
:47:29. > :47:33.Cabinet Office minister, he seems to be dumping a confidential and
:47:33. > :47:38.secret documents, torn up, into a rubbish bin in the park. He has
:47:38. > :47:43.given us a statement tonight, apparently in which he says, or a
:47:43. > :47:47.spokesperson says he does some of his parliamentary and constituency
:47:47. > :47:51.course dense in the park before going to work. - correspondence in
:47:51. > :48:01.the park before going to work. They are not documents of a sensitive
:48:01. > :48:04.
:48:04. > :48:08.Hello, we should have more sunshine around tomorrow. The cloud already
:48:08. > :48:14.breaking early in the morning across the south-east of England.
:48:14. > :48:19.Some sunny spells here. Brightening up across England and Wales. The
:48:19. > :48:24.bulk of Northern Ireland rainy. A much better afternoon across the
:48:24. > :48:30.north of England, 16. Sunny spells in the Midland, and the best of the
:48:30. > :48:35.sunshine maybe in the south-east of England, not as warm as today. 21
:48:35. > :48:38.in Southampton. Improving all the while across the south west, a grey,
:48:38. > :48:42.misty start, sunshine breaking through in the afternoon. Sunshine
:48:42. > :48:45.in Wales, particularly the east. The west still cloudy. More cloud
:48:45. > :48:49.as you cross the Irish Sea towards Northern Ireland. A little rain or
:48:49. > :48:54.drizzle not far away. Especially later in the afternoon. The north