:00:09. > :00:14.Good evening. The violence in Syria looks increasingly like the early
:00:14. > :00:20.stages of a civil war. Tonight we report undercover from inside the
:00:20. > :00:24.most troubled city of all. Some days the Syrian army shoots on
:00:24. > :00:29.sight on the streets of Homs. Yet the civilians still come out night
:00:29. > :00:32.after night to demonstrate. These protests are taking place
:00:32. > :00:36.every night in Homs, with apparently unabated enthusiasm,
:00:36. > :00:40.which is impressive, not least because they have been going on for
:00:40. > :00:45.seven months now, and so little has been achieved.
:00:45. > :00:49.This, a makeshift A&E ward in someone's home is where the
:00:49. > :00:53.casualties come, it is too dang us to go to hospital. TRANSLATION:
:00:53. > :00:58.would go into hospital with a treatable injury to his hand, and
:00:58. > :01:01.the family would be summoned to collect a body with a shot in the
:01:01. > :01:05.head. He did break the Ministerial Code,
:01:05. > :01:08.but what really happened when the defence skebt and his close friend
:01:08. > :01:11.met the President - Defence Secretary and his close friend met
:01:12. > :01:18.the President of Sri Lanka. We ask why politicians shouldn't
:01:18. > :01:23.have their own advisors to balance the hand of the British bureaucracy.
:01:23. > :01:27.One day, perhaps, electricity pylons will look like this, or this.
:01:27. > :01:37.God only knows what we will be paying for the stuff then. But
:01:37. > :01:40.Government's advice? Short it out for yourself.
:01:40. > :01:45.Syrian Government troops killed at least 20 people in the city of Homs
:01:45. > :01:48.today. At least we're told by local activists they killed at least 20
:01:48. > :01:52.persons. There is no way of checking, because the regime there
:01:52. > :01:57.won't let in independent witnesses. President Assad's mouth pieces
:01:57. > :02:00.claim that the only violence in the country is coming from so-called
:02:00. > :02:04.terrorists. But the unrest seems especially acute in the city of
:02:04. > :02:08.Homs. So our reporter, Sue Lloyd- Roberts, smuggled herself into the
:02:08. > :02:12.country in defiance of the ban to find out firsthand what is
:02:12. > :02:15.happening. Now, as you're not supposed to be in the country, how
:02:15. > :02:19.do you get? I don't want to giveaway too many secrets. I was
:02:19. > :02:24.lucky enough to link up with a very intelligent and brave group of
:02:24. > :02:30.activists, who, by using a number of cars, various disguises,
:02:30. > :02:33.travelling a lot at night, a lot of tall stories at army checkpoints,
:02:33. > :02:38.managed to smuggle me into the city of Homs. It was a very impressive
:02:38. > :02:42.operation. And if these activists were able to win the Syrian
:02:42. > :02:47.revolution, by virtue of their cunning and intelligence alone,
:02:47. > :02:50.they deserve to. All the protestors are determined to keep their
:02:51. > :02:54.demonstrations peaceful. So far it is mostly only the Syrian army that
:02:54. > :02:58.have the weapons. I have been talking to members of my network in
:02:58. > :03:01.Homs tonight, and the situation appears to be really dire. They are
:03:01. > :03:06.talking about more than 20 fatalities, although that has yet
:03:06. > :03:11.to be confirmed. And the use, for the first time, of helicopter
:03:11. > :03:21.gunships. So things are deteriorating. But this is what I
:03:21. > :03:24.
:03:24. > :03:31.Homs, the so-called capital of the Syrian revolution. Where, despite
:03:31. > :03:35.the daily death toll, the protest continues.
:03:35. > :03:41.But the tactics have changed. Most demonstrations are being held at
:03:41. > :03:48.night, in an effort to minimise casualties.
:03:48. > :03:52.And, as the only journalist here to view the protest firsthand, I noted
:03:52. > :03:56.another significant difference. Back in March, when they began, the
:03:56. > :04:03.protestors called for reform, then they called for the fall of the
:04:03. > :04:07.regime. Today, as the name of each atrocity and massacre, carried out
:04:07. > :04:09.by Assad's army and his thugs is called out, the crowd respond by
:04:09. > :04:17.demanding the death of the President.
:04:17. > :04:21.By hanging. These protests are taking place
:04:21. > :04:25.every night in Homs now, with parently unabated enthusiasm, which
:04:25. > :04:28.is impressive, not least because they have been going on for seven
:04:28. > :04:37.months now, and so little has been achieved.
:04:37. > :04:42.But this, I'm reminded, is not the point. TRANSLATION: I haven't seen
:04:42. > :04:52.anything like this in my life. The old, the young, women, everyone
:04:52. > :04:56.
:04:56. > :05:01.calling for freedom in Syria. This revolution will win.
:05:01. > :05:06.I'm told to run as shots are heard, and soldiers are seen at the end of
:05:06. > :05:14.the street. We should hide because when the forces attack, the first
:05:14. > :05:18.thing they are looking for is a camera.
:05:18. > :05:22.Homs was one of the first cities to join the Syrian uprising, when
:05:22. > :05:25.thousands gathered in the main square to call for the lifting of
:05:25. > :05:31.the Government's emergency laws, and for genuine democracy.
:05:31. > :05:35.But the Government was not in the mood for listening.
:05:35. > :05:43.Ahmed was a member of the military security, whose job it is to shoot
:05:44. > :05:48.soldiers who refuse to fire on the protestors. He has since defected.
:05:48. > :05:55.TRANSLATION: It was a genocide. I was there. The protestors had
:05:55. > :06:00.started their sit-in, and there was a call for extra troops. I saw
:06:00. > :06:10.soldiers who refused to fire on the crowds, because we used to lead
:06:10. > :06:13.
:06:13. > :06:18.them. We were in the same tanks as them, and they were shot. I don't
:06:18. > :06:23.know how many protestors were killed. But it was more than 300.
:06:23. > :06:28.Because I was stepping over dead bodies. They threw the bodies into
:06:28. > :06:38.trucks, and then used fire engines to hose down the square. It was
:06:38. > :06:41.
:06:41. > :06:51.like a river of blood. Yes, there was a massacre. The army has
:06:51. > :06:56.
:06:56. > :07:06.encirleled and attacked Homs ever since. I was take on a tour of one
:07:06. > :07:10.of the most besieged parts of the city. My guide equipped me with a
:07:10. > :07:18.fake local ID to get us past checkpoints and told me to pretend
:07:18. > :07:22.to be his deaf, mute sister, which suited me fine.
:07:22. > :07:25.TRANSLATION: Most of the time the city is under attack. Mothers can't
:07:25. > :07:31.even go out to buy bread or milk for their children. People are
:07:31. > :07:39.hiding in their houses, they can't go out. Buses are used to transport
:07:39. > :07:45.the army. Even schools are attacked, and they are using some of them as
:07:45. > :07:53.prisons for the protestors. They want our children to remain stupid
:07:53. > :07:58.and uneducated. Look at the rubbish in the streets, this is how they
:07:58. > :08:07.treat us. We have rats, but no water, electricity or communication
:08:07. > :08:13.here. There is an army patrol ahead, we
:08:13. > :08:23.have to go another way. He took me to meet Mohammed, one of
:08:23. > :08:29.
:08:29. > :08:32.the soldiers, who was ordered to attack the people of the town.
:08:32. > :08:37.TRANSLATION: When it came to here, we were ordered to kill everything
:08:37. > :08:39.that moved, everyone who was walking in the street. There were
:08:39. > :08:43.children, one of them called his friends who were playing in the
:08:43. > :08:49.street to come into his house for safety. As they were crossing the
:08:49. > :08:56.street they killed the boy and another six children. He told me he
:08:56. > :08:59.had just defected from the army to join the opposition the day before.
:08:59. > :09:04.TRANSLATION: Our orders were to kill the Syrian people, it was
:09:04. > :09:08.never the plan to protect them from the armed gangs. Rather we were
:09:08. > :09:18.being ordered to kill our own people, who, at the end of the day,
:09:18. > :09:30.
:09:30. > :09:35.are our own flesh and blood. With the city in virtual shutdown,
:09:35. > :09:40.there is nowhere to go. No wonder angry people spill out on to the
:09:40. > :09:44.streets at night. At another demonstration, the next evening,
:09:44. > :09:50.they had clearly been tipped off that the BBC was in town. The
:09:50. > :09:56.posters were all designed for an international audience, and
:09:56. > :09:59.expressed fury at Russia and China's refusal to back action
:09:59. > :10:03.against Syria, and for continuing to supply arms to a murderous
:10:03. > :10:08.regime. Members of the revolutionary
:10:08. > :10:12.Council of Homs, may look like they are taking an exaggerated approach
:10:12. > :10:17.to their anonymity. But it is understandable. Is Syria now close
:10:17. > :10:24.to civil war? The regime is trying to push us to be involved in a
:10:24. > :10:28.civil war. But, it will not succeed. We are aware enough of the risk.
:10:28. > :10:33.The demonstrations, you can see the Muslims and the Christians, the
:10:33. > :10:42.Sunni and others, marching together and shouting for freedom for all
:10:42. > :10:50.people. So that our real enemy is the regime itself. On Friday, the
:10:50. > :10:54.protest still takes place during the day, after midday prayers. The
:10:54. > :10:58.protestors attempt to block off roads to delay the arrival of the
:10:58. > :11:06.security forces. In a network of makeshift field hospitals, they are
:11:06. > :11:16.preparing for the inevitable casualties. Doctors have been
:11:16. > :11:16.
:11:16. > :11:21.arrested and tortured for helping gun shot victims. TRANSLATION:
:11:21. > :11:24.normal thing would be to take the injured to the hospitals. To our
:11:24. > :11:28.astonishment we found that when we did that, the injured were either
:11:28. > :11:34.arrested or killed. A man would go into the hospital with a treatable
:11:34. > :11:41.injury to his hand or leg, and his family would be summoned to collect
:11:41. > :11:44.a corpse with a shot to the head or chest.
:11:44. > :11:48.But these medical points are hopelessly inadequate. They have to
:11:48. > :11:54.move once a week to escape detection, and they are desperately
:11:54. > :11:59.short of the basics, blood bags, antibiotics and even antiseptic
:12:00. > :12:04.wipes. TRANSLATION: Even in this place, at
:12:04. > :12:12.any time, we are in danger of being broken into by the security forces.
:12:12. > :12:17.About half of them suffer from head or neck wounds. We just haven't got
:12:17. > :12:27.the means to treat them. No-one brought here with a head wound has
:12:27. > :12:32.survived. That day, at the Friday protest, always the bloodiest, his
:12:32. > :12:42.worst fears were proven. Security forces shot at men as they
:12:42. > :12:46.
:12:46. > :12:56.tried to leave the mosque to join the demonstration. They risked
:12:56. > :12:59.
:12:59. > :13:02.bullets as they ran. (shouting and gunfire)
:13:02. > :13:11.Two men suffered severe head injuries and were rushed to the
:13:11. > :13:13.field hospital. We followed them there. Their
:13:13. > :13:23.injuries were too gruesome to broadcast and the doctors could do
:13:23. > :13:25.
:13:25. > :13:32.nothing to save them. They were buried the next day. A
:13:32. > :13:36.day in which another 13 were killed in the city.
:13:36. > :13:42.Homs may boast the title of the capital of the revolution. But it
:13:42. > :13:46.has cost them dear. Over 3,000 deaths in the Syrian uprising so
:13:46. > :13:56.far, and many believe it has been much more, nearly half have been
:13:56. > :13:59.from Homs. 30kms away, across the border in
:13:59. > :14:03.Lebanon, sympathetic Lebanese have sheltered increasing numbers of the
:14:03. > :14:07.wounded and defected soldiers, now in hiding.
:14:07. > :14:11.Tens of thousands of soldiers are now believed to have left the
:14:11. > :14:21.Syrian army. Those who can, have grouped together to form what they
:14:21. > :14:24.
:14:24. > :14:30.call the Free Syrian army. This man, when ordered to shoot on un armed -
:14:30. > :14:37.unarmed protestors fled. It is the real army, this Free Syrian Army,
:14:37. > :14:42.consists of a lot of groups, separated among all Syrian places,
:14:42. > :14:45.or sinnian cities, trying to protect - Syrian cities, trying to
:14:45. > :14:49.protect the protestors from being killed on the streets. Weapons have
:14:49. > :14:54.never been hard to find here in Lebanon, but this dealer showed me
:14:54. > :15:02.how the cupboard is now almost bare. He's importing weapons, he says,
:15:02. > :15:08.from all over the world. Where? And the price of Kalashnikov has
:15:08. > :15:14.doubled from $1,000 to almost $2,000 over the last few weeks. Who
:15:15. > :15:18.is buying them? Tran They are being bought by Sunni and Islamist -
:15:18. > :15:23.TRANSLATION: They are being bought by Sunni and Islamists and being
:15:23. > :15:25.smuggled over the border to Syria. Many are confiscated. For sure,
:15:26. > :15:32.with the amount of weapons we are sending over there, there will be a
:15:32. > :15:38.civil war. When demonstrations erupted in the
:15:39. > :15:48.town of Rastan, just 15kms from Homs, a group of army defectors,
:15:49. > :15:52.
:15:52. > :15:56.members of the Free Syrian Army, promised to defend the protestors.
:15:56. > :16:03.They held out against Government forces for a week. Before the
:16:03. > :16:07.Syrian Army quashed the rebellion. The rumour is, that the survivors,
:16:07. > :16:12.among the new army, are regrouping and preparing to defend Homs, a
:16:12. > :16:14.possibility which the leaders here welcome.
:16:14. > :16:20.The demonstration part of the revolution will continue peacefully.
:16:20. > :16:27.But on the other hand, the operations of the Free Syrian Army
:16:27. > :16:31.may increase more and more, to protect the people. So we have now
:16:31. > :16:37.two lines going together simultaneously. The peaceful
:16:37. > :16:46.demonstrations and the operations of the Syrian Free Army. The basic
:16:46. > :16:50.duty of the army of any state is to protect the people. We will win, of
:16:50. > :16:53.course, we see the victory in the eyes of the kids, women, elders and
:16:53. > :16:57.all the young men Marching every day in the demonstration - marching
:16:57. > :17:02.every day in the demonstration. We are sure of that. They are marching
:17:02. > :17:11.again in Homs tonight, in a brave display in the triumph of hope over
:17:11. > :17:16.seven months experience. They will carrying on telling Bashar al-Assad
:17:16. > :17:26.to go, one protestor told me, even if he has to kill every one of them.
:17:26. > :17:26.
:17:26. > :17:30.With us now my guest, who was shot last month, you may have seen the
:17:30. > :17:34.interview when he escaped from the country. Feeda Kardous saw it and
:17:34. > :17:37.was insensed by it, she's Syrian and lives in this country and
:17:37. > :17:40.returns to Damascus every year. It looks from the report if things are
:17:40. > :17:46.getting a lot worse? They are getting really worse. They want to
:17:46. > :17:52.stop it and they will stop it in any way. They have got tanks, new
:17:52. > :17:56.army individuals, and they are shooting at houses now. They are
:17:57. > :18:01.arresting anyone under 60 years old. They are raping girls, taking them,
:18:01. > :18:05.raping them so we will stop doing what we are doing, they are being
:18:05. > :18:10.threatened about raping the girls in Homs. It looks as if your
:18:10. > :18:15.country son the verge of civil war - is on the verge of civil war,
:18:16. > :18:22.doesn't it? It is, if the free army, or the opposition, or the armed
:18:22. > :18:26.rebels, they don't stop, and resort to dialogue, this is where the
:18:26. > :18:31.country is heading. But you don't deny that most of the killing has
:18:31. > :18:36.been done by the army and the Government forces? If that's the
:18:36. > :18:43.case, what about the Syrian free army, what about it? Who is killing
:18:43. > :18:49.our security, who is killing the army people, individuals, I don't
:18:49. > :18:52.think so. I don't think so. These are people who were, as you heard
:18:52. > :18:58.somebody testify there, they were members of the Syrian security
:18:58. > :19:02.forces, ordered to shoot their own soldiers if they refused to shoot
:19:02. > :19:09.demonstrators? They are claims. Everything to do with the
:19:09. > :19:15.opposition now is all claims, to us, what we want is just we want the
:19:15. > :19:20.country, we don't want a bloodbath, we don't want a civil war, we don't
:19:20. > :19:29.want our children to get killed. We don't want you to get killed. We
:19:30. > :19:35.don't want that. We only want to just have a peaceful transformation
:19:35. > :19:42.to power. First of all, we have never had any sectarian problems in
:19:42. > :19:44.Syria, in all our history. I beg to differ. Let me finish. We have
:19:44. > :19:52.never had sectarian problems, if there is, the Government is trying
:19:52. > :19:56.to do it. Why would they do it now. It went into all the Christian
:19:56. > :20:00.places, it told the churches and the Christians that they would get
:20:00. > :20:04.them next and said we did it. My friends are Christians, we have
:20:05. > :20:09.never had any problems. You are a Christian too? I am a Christian.
:20:09. > :20:17.What reforms, he has killed all the people, what kind of reforms can
:20:17. > :20:21.this Government do? You have heard what they are saying on TV. This
:20:21. > :20:26.started out as a campaign for reform in the Arab Spring, it has
:20:26. > :20:29.gon gone way beyond that, you wouldn't see Assad doing any
:20:29. > :20:33.reform? I was one of the people who went out. We were so scared to say
:20:33. > :20:39.we don't want the regime. So we went out for Deraa, that is in Homs,
:20:39. > :20:44.we went out and said we don't want the mayor. When the first bullet
:20:44. > :20:47.came out, the first man to be shot, we just asked for the regime to
:20:47. > :20:52.leave. No-one was scared any more. We thought well, we're not going to
:20:52. > :20:56.live like this, we're not going to be treated like animals all our
:20:56. > :21:01.lives. Go to any security place to try to get anything, see how you
:21:01. > :21:06.get treated in there. It has been like this for 40 years. If you can
:21:06. > :21:12.get to that security place. I'm talking about Homs, can you get and
:21:12. > :21:16.walk freely in Homs? No you can't walk freely? I wonder why? Because
:21:17. > :21:21.all the army and. All the army Danny? I'm sorry. Don't be sorry, I
:21:21. > :21:24.have been there, they shot me, they shot three kids in front of me two
:21:24. > :21:28.months ago, it is by the army and they have civilians with machine
:21:28. > :21:34.guns standing with them, what does that mean, mercenaries? What about
:21:34. > :21:38.the hospitals. The defected army? What about the arms that have been
:21:38. > :21:42.smuggled to Homs? There might be. Individuals, all these arms. I tell
:21:42. > :21:45.you something, if I was in their place, which I know they are not
:21:45. > :21:51.doing anything right now, anyone wants to protect themselves. What
:21:51. > :21:55.about the security forces, you are killing security forces. No, no, no.
:21:55. > :22:01.Look I'm sorry. The army is being killed by the security forces, the
:22:01. > :22:05.army is, you heard this, the army that is not shooting, I'm sure of
:22:05. > :22:10.this 100%. What is it you fear may be the consequence of what's
:22:10. > :22:15.happening? This is it, we're going to go into civil war, simple as
:22:15. > :22:20.that. Simple as that. I'm 100% behind that. I know we're going to
:22:20. > :22:29.go. If you tell me, or anyone else tells me that we're not going to go
:22:29. > :22:34.to civil war, highly mistaken. Whose fault is that? Because we
:22:34. > :22:38.wanted freedom. Let me say this, you have been living in Syria, you
:22:38. > :22:43.know that I can't say the President's name in the street
:22:43. > :22:49.freely, is that freedom. Can I have my word. I have been to Syria this
:22:49. > :22:55.summer. I have been in a cab, OK, I'm Christian, I have been in a cab,
:22:55. > :22:59.on the way back, when I got to my destination, I get the cab driver
:22:59. > :23:05.he turned to me and he said, once we get to power, you're not going
:23:05. > :23:11.to get to wear what you are wearing now. I have heard that ten times
:23:11. > :23:16.now. Exactly, so what kind of freedom. It is a legitimate fear,
:23:16. > :23:21.you don't know how this is going to turn out? No I don't. The Assad
:23:21. > :23:25.regime is a secular regime? Can I try to explain something. All the
:23:25. > :23:30.girls kidnapped are by cabs, all the intelligence cabs, they are
:23:30. > :23:34.trying to make sectarian problems between us. In Damascus. I'm not
:23:34. > :23:40.saying Damascus. I'm not saying that. In Damascus they are like
:23:40. > :23:45.ants there, there is so many security forces. I'm sorry. Don't
:23:45. > :23:50.be sorry, I'm telling the truth. You don't know how it is going to
:23:50. > :23:55.turn out? We need outside help? would prefer a dictatorship? I want
:23:55. > :23:59.reforms, Jeremy. I don't want dictatorships. Reforms over all the
:23:59. > :24:05.bodies. What about the ones the opposition has claimed. Let's leave
:24:05. > :24:10.it there. Thank you very much. Now, the Defence Secretary, who
:24:11. > :24:13.resigned at the end of last week, did break the Ministerial Code, the
:24:13. > :24:17.BBC understands the Cabinet Secretary delivered his report to
:24:17. > :24:20.the Prime Minister this afternoon. It will be published tomorrow. But
:24:20. > :24:24.he won't be making recommendations about the way ministers and
:24:24. > :24:27.lobbyists deal with each other. Like political advisors, who have
:24:27. > :24:31.spread like a rash across Government, lobbyists can be found
:24:31. > :24:35.under most of the stones of Westminster. But did Adam
:24:35. > :24:37.Werritty's actions amount to lobbying, if so, who were the
:24:37. > :24:45.potential clients? Richard Watson has new evidence involving the
:24:45. > :24:52.Government of Sri Lanka. It was a more gentile affair in 163
:24:52. > :24:56.as the press waited for Secretary of State John Profumo, but they got
:24:57. > :25:01.their man, after details of his relationship with Christine Keeler
:25:01. > :25:06.emerged. The Government has seen high-profile resignations over the
:25:06. > :25:10.years, but few could match the fall from grace of Liam Fox. The drip,
:25:10. > :25:13.drip of allegations and detail proved too much on Friday. The
:25:13. > :25:18.Government says tomorrow's official report from Cabinet Secretary, Gus
:25:18. > :25:21.O'Donnell, will establish the facts. There is still no commitment to
:25:21. > :25:26.publish details of meetings Adam Werritty had with other ministers.
:25:26. > :25:29.The Government seems to be digging a deeper hole for itself. It has
:25:29. > :25:33.given the inquiry into Gus O'Donnell, it should have gone to
:25:33. > :25:38.the independent Patrick Moore. That is a mistake. Not publishing -
:25:38. > :25:42.Philip Moore, that is a mistake. Not publishing the list. The lesson
:25:42. > :25:48.of the Liam Fox scandal is transparency. Whatever you do is
:25:48. > :25:52.put it out there, if not you will get caught and get into problems.
:25:52. > :25:56.Will more light be shed on this encounter last year, when Liam Fox
:25:56. > :26:00.and his unofficial advisor, Adam Werritty, met on private business
:26:00. > :26:03.with the President of Sri Lanka in a London hotel. I found there has
:26:04. > :26:07.been a lot of fear, even in London, about speaking openly about this
:26:07. > :26:11.story, such is the power of the President of Sri Lanka. Who many
:26:11. > :26:14.say has a poor record in human rights and freedom of speech. Given
:26:14. > :26:21.that record, what was Dr Fox and Adam Werritty doing developing a
:26:21. > :26:25.relationship with that man. This evening I spoke to a man who
:26:25. > :26:29.may help answer that question. He has been a leading figure in the
:26:29. > :26:34.United National Party here in Britain, which opposes the
:26:34. > :26:39.Government of the President. He says during the civil war in 2009,
:26:40. > :26:48.he helped arrange a meeting for a leading human rights campaigner and
:26:48. > :26:53.politician based in Colombo with Liam Fox at port cull tis House. Mr
:26:54. > :26:58.Fox was Shadow Defence Secretary at the time. - at Portcullis House. Mr
:26:58. > :27:05.Fox was Shadow Defence Secretary at the time. So Adam Werritty gave me
:27:05. > :27:10.this. It clearly says Adam Werritty, office of Dr Liam Fox MP, it has
:27:10. > :27:14.the official Portcullis insignia on it as well? Indeed it does. I guess
:27:14. > :27:20.you would have every reason to believe he was an official advisor?
:27:20. > :27:25.Absolutely. I have no reason to think otherwise. Inside Portcullis
:27:25. > :27:28.House, the two Sri Lankans were intent on talking about human
:27:28. > :27:32.rights abusive, but they say Dr Fox was supportive of the President,
:27:32. > :27:40.and was keener to discuss investment and construction.
:27:40. > :27:50.wanted to talk about investment in Sri Lanka. He was enthusiastic and
:27:50. > :27:51.
:27:51. > :27:59.passionate about some sort of investment programme, or venture he
:27:59. > :28:05.had in mind. He wanted to talk more about investment than the other
:28:05. > :28:10.issues which were undoubtedly the pressing issues at the time.
:28:10. > :28:15.human rights abuses? Indeed. We are told the Sri Lankan Development
:28:15. > :28:19.Trust was mentioned, which appears to be a vehicle for reconstruction
:28:19. > :28:23.work, championed by Adam Werritty and Liam Fox. We were told the two
:28:23. > :28:30.men were keen to identify rich Sri Lankans in the UK who might help
:28:30. > :28:35.out. We spoke to an opposition leader in Sri Lanka and he said
:28:35. > :28:45.Adam Werritty and Liam Fox were well known there. I met Liam Fox
:28:45. > :28:46.
:28:46. > :28:50.We couldn't reach Liam Fox or Adam Werritty for comment tonight. Did
:28:50. > :28:52.Adam Werritty's work amount to political lobbying? If so, it would
:28:53. > :28:57.be embarrassing for the Prime Minister, who set out his stall
:28:57. > :29:00.before the election. There is, I believe, another big issue we can
:29:00. > :29:04.no longer ignore. It is the next big scandal waiting to happen. It
:29:04. > :29:10.is an issue, that frankly, crosses party lines, and has tainted our
:29:10. > :29:15.politics for too long. It is an issue that exposes the far too cosy
:29:15. > :29:19.relationship between politics, Government, business and money.
:29:19. > :29:23.Liam Fox affair has nothing to do with lobbying, a former Defence
:29:23. > :29:28.Secretary and his friend, it wouldn't have prevented the Liam
:29:28. > :29:32.Fox afar or discovered it. It is completely irrelevant to the Liam
:29:32. > :29:35.Fox affair. When politicians are naughty and get caught, they blame
:29:35. > :29:38.lobbyists. It is about time politicians got their own house in
:29:38. > :29:45.order and stopped blaming other people. Tomorrow will bring the
:29:45. > :29:49.official verdict on Liam Fox, the BBC uns he will be judged to have
:29:49. > :29:52.broke - understands he will be judged to have broken the
:29:52. > :29:56.Ministerial Code and it will have been judged that it right he has
:29:56. > :30:03.gone. But the question is about his relationship with Adam Werritty and
:30:03. > :30:07.whether this scandal will force a look at the lobbyists and the work
:30:07. > :30:11.of advisors. With us is Matt Hancock and Lord Butler, Cabinet
:30:11. > :30:14.Secretary and head of the Civil Service for a decade, until 1998,
:30:14. > :30:21.serving Margaret Thatcher, John Major and Tony Blair.
:30:21. > :30:25.Matt Hancock, why do MPs need all these hangers on? The question is
:30:25. > :30:31.it about lobbyists or others? Advisors? I think political
:30:31. > :30:34.advisors can help a lot in Government, to help make sure that
:30:34. > :30:38.when a Government is elected that they can drive through the reforms
:30:38. > :30:42.they want. We are not talking about huge numbers. But we are talking
:30:42. > :30:48.about a minister having a few people around him who he can rely
:30:48. > :30:53.on, who share his political agenda, which is, afterall, a good thing.
:30:53. > :30:59.We want people who want to improve the country to be running the
:30:59. > :31:03.country. This shouldn't be necessary, if we had a decent Civil
:31:03. > :31:07.Service shouldn't they? The Civil Service is one source of advice. I
:31:07. > :31:11.never thought the Civil Service should have a monopoly of advice to
:31:11. > :31:15.ministers. My view has always been that ministers should get advice
:31:15. > :31:20.from as many useful sources as possible, some politic ka and some
:31:20. > :31:24.non-political. During my career I worked harmoniously with special
:31:25. > :31:28.advisors, outside advisors, as long as they were giving useful advice
:31:28. > :31:32.to ministers, and there was a transparent debate, and the Civil
:31:32. > :31:37.Service wasn't being cut out, that was great. But this is about what
:31:37. > :31:47.you didn't call, but which was called sofa Government, isn't it?
:31:47. > :31:52.don't think it is, actually. The problem about sofa-Government, is
:31:52. > :31:55.the problem was there wasn't the all the resources being brought in.
:31:55. > :31:59.There were small groups without using the resources Civil Service
:31:59. > :32:04.could provide, good papers that couldn't be provided to the cabinet.
:32:04. > :32:08.That was my criticism. Don't you worry that what this Adam Werritty-
:32:08. > :32:12.Liam Fox affair reveals, is it is still going on? I think what this
:32:12. > :32:16.shows is that there are two very important things. First of all,
:32:17. > :32:21.have advisors, but don't use them as way of bypassing the Civil
:32:21. > :32:27.Service. Let's work together. The second thing, of course, is, that
:32:27. > :32:31.the status of an advisor ought to be clear. If the status isn't clear,
:32:31. > :32:36.and if particularly you don't know how that advisor is being financed,
:32:36. > :32:43.then you are running a great risk. You risk a conflict of interest.
:32:43. > :32:47.What lesson do you draw? I think that transparency is the most
:32:47. > :32:52.important lesson, and in the coalition agreement it says that we
:32:52. > :32:56.should have a register of the lobbyists and trast transparency. I
:32:56. > :33:00.think that's the - transparency. I think that is the key lesson, when
:33:00. > :33:04.you're trying to run the Government, you ought to be very open about how
:33:04. > :33:11.you are doing it, as well as about the goals that you are trying to
:33:11. > :33:14.pursue. It is absolutely key, isn't it, that the taxpayer knows what
:33:14. > :33:18.lobbyists ministers are meeting, what they are discussing, and that
:33:19. > :33:22.there is an independent witness there taking proper notes? If there
:33:22. > :33:27.are, we talk about lobbyists in this way, but remember this is also
:33:27. > :33:31.about how to consult on the best future of Government policy. Let me
:33:31. > :33:35.give you an example. The British Horse Racing Authority, you might
:33:35. > :33:41.call them a lobbyist, they actually work extremely hard for the
:33:41. > :33:46.betterment of a sport that millions of your viewers will enjoy. So,
:33:46. > :33:49.having those sorts of contacts is crucial for a Government, for any
:33:49. > :33:52.politician to have a feel for what's happening on the real world.
:33:52. > :33:58.You are constantly telling people on this programme you have got to
:33:58. > :34:02.be more in touch, and so, being able to have those sorts of
:34:02. > :34:05.conversations is important. Let's be transparent about it. There is a
:34:05. > :34:09.register, which we have been promised, since long before the
:34:10. > :34:12.election, by your party, still not in existence? It is in the
:34:12. > :34:15.coalition agreement, and I don't know whether you have noticed, but
:34:15. > :34:18.in the last year-and-a-half, there have been an awful lot of reforms
:34:18. > :34:23.going on and things going in through Parliament. Are you
:34:23. > :34:27.confident about the way that lobbyists deal with ministers?
:34:27. > :34:33.providing that is transparent. you feel it is? I don't think it is
:34:33. > :34:36.sufficiently yet. No, but I can think of examples, like Matthew can,
:34:36. > :34:41.of where lobbyists produced information that was really
:34:41. > :34:47.important in our international negotiations, which ministers
:34:47. > :34:52.didn't get from the Civil Service. So I wouldn't...Why Are the Civil
:34:52. > :34:57.Service so purrblind? The Civil Service can't know everything.
:34:57. > :35:01.is not the impression you always give? The man in Whitehall doesn't
:35:01. > :35:04.always know best. We have to have a humility about this, and there is
:35:04. > :35:09.expertise and perspective that can be brought from outside Government.
:35:09. > :35:13.And it should be. Provided that you can avoid conflicts of interest.
:35:13. > :35:17.The really important thing with lobbyists is neither the minister
:35:17. > :35:24.nor the civil servant, to whom they have access, should get any
:35:24. > :35:30.personal gain from the access which they have. How do we guarantee
:35:30. > :35:34.that? Only by transparency, that is the way it has to be done. You were
:35:34. > :35:37.just saying we haven't adequate transparency? That is one of the
:35:37. > :35:41.lessons to be learned from this sort of episode. Dramatic action is
:35:41. > :35:46.being taken to cut the soaring cost of people's energy bills. That is
:35:46. > :35:49.not the headline to emerge from the talks between the Government and
:35:49. > :35:53.companies that provide gas and electricity. Anyone who has paid a
:35:53. > :35:57.bill recently will know how expensive energy has become. And
:35:57. > :36:00.the regulator predicts massive profits for suppliers. The
:36:00. > :36:04.conclusion from the meeting, if you want your bill to fall, it is up to
:36:04. > :36:07.you. On the admittedly outside chance
:36:07. > :36:11.that you think that the biggest problem with Britain's energy
:36:11. > :36:15.supply is the shape of the pylons. Well, good news, there has been a
:36:15. > :36:19.competition to come up with some new designs. Some interesting ideas,
:36:19. > :36:23.some clearly getting a bit carried away. For most people, though,
:36:23. > :36:28.there are other, more pressing energy problems, like, well, the
:36:28. > :36:33.size of the bills. The first problems with energy bills, though,
:36:33. > :36:38.is the sheer complexity of the tarrifs.
:36:38. > :36:41.The Government wants us to know it's on our side. So it held an
:36:41. > :36:48.energy summit today with the energy suppliers, telling them to get
:36:48. > :36:51.their acts together. The agreement reached was, well, a bit
:36:51. > :36:55.predictable. So much so it had been printed on posters already.
:36:55. > :36:59.should be checking to see if we're on the cheapest tarrif, we should
:36:59. > :37:03.switch if not. And taking the opportunity ahead of this winter,
:37:03. > :37:08.to really make sure that we are insulating, so we can save money.
:37:08. > :37:11.Those are messages that all of the participants have been able to
:37:11. > :37:17.agree around, not everything is agreed. I do think we have a very
:37:17. > :37:20.substantial measure of agreement. You only have to come here to the
:37:20. > :37:25.energy hall at the Science Museum to see generating power has always
:37:25. > :37:28.been a powerfully complex business. But many experts believe our modern
:37:28. > :37:33.problem, trying to understand energy tarrifs and which supplier
:37:33. > :37:37.is best for us, is actually not the problem, it is a symptom of the
:37:37. > :37:41.problem. The problem itself is an energy market that no longer works.
:37:41. > :37:45.There is, in these circumstances, you know, a desperate attempt by
:37:45. > :37:49.politicians to think that some how they can magic low Erbils, the
:37:49. > :37:55.answer is, in the short run, apart from forcing companies to do things
:37:55. > :37:59.they don't want to do, there is very little they can do. But what
:37:59. > :38:03.politicians could do and should do is to provide a framework in which
:38:03. > :38:07.the market works properly. That is precisely what is missing now, and
:38:07. > :38:12.that's what they should pay their attention to. Ed Miliband agrees.
:38:12. > :38:15.He knows a lot about energy, he used to be Energy Secretary. But,
:38:15. > :38:19.since leaving that job, and taking on the job of leader of the
:38:19. > :38:22.opposition, well he's also taken on the view that the energy market is
:38:22. > :38:26.rigged. The Government's job is to say
:38:26. > :38:29.we're going to reform the way the market works, we are going to make
:38:30. > :38:34.sure we end this rigged market, once and for all, and we have a
:38:34. > :38:38.fairer deal for consumers and a more transparent energy market.
:38:38. > :38:41.Frankly I think the Government is just engaging in warm words.
:38:41. > :38:46.energy market wasn't supposed to be like it is now. When it was
:38:46. > :38:52.deregulated in 2000, we had 21 electricity and 19 gas suppliers,
:38:52. > :38:56.all bucking for our pounds. Now, though, it is down to just six
:38:56. > :39:00.companies, supplying both fuels. And it is not just the number of
:39:00. > :39:07.energy companies that's dwindled, they have changed. They now
:39:07. > :39:11.generate their own splie supply. In the jargon, their vertically
:39:11. > :39:14.integrated. It is extraordinaryly difficult to price open the
:39:14. > :39:17.mechanism of this particular market, to find out whether the prices the
:39:17. > :39:20.energy companies charge are anything like fair. It is certainly
:39:20. > :39:23.possible, through leg mit get accounting mechanisms to show
:39:23. > :39:26.profit in different parts of the supply chain. That means energy
:39:26. > :39:31.companies can say to consumers, we are not making money as a retail
:39:31. > :39:35.business, but they can say to investors, look how buoyant the
:39:35. > :39:39.balance sheet is as a generator. It is about the impossibility of get
:39:39. > :39:43.to go the heart of what these energy companies are make and
:39:43. > :39:49.because that is not fashion and the market cannot be trusted, we have
:39:49. > :39:54.to have prime ministerial summits to sort it out.
:39:54. > :39:58.So, let's see, we have got to insulate the loft, shop around for
:39:58. > :40:04.the best deal, ministers have to redesign the energy market. Is
:40:04. > :40:07.there anything else we should be doing? According to some, the most
:40:07. > :40:11.important thing, is to abandon targets for cutting greenhouse gas
:40:11. > :40:17.emissions. The Government is committed at present to cutting our
:40:17. > :40:22.C02 by 80% by 2050. One Downing Street report estimated this would
:40:22. > :40:29.cost each consumer �300 a year in more expensive energy. The total
:40:29. > :40:34.investment needed is somewhere between �100-�200 billion. The
:40:34. > :40:36.Chancellor is worried, he thinks it might hurt business, as he told
:40:36. > :40:41.this year's Conservative Party Conference. But Britain makes up
:40:41. > :40:46.less than 2% of the world's carbon emissions to China and America's
:40:46. > :40:49.40%. We're not going to save the planet by putting our country out
:40:49. > :40:54.of business. Let's at the very least resolve that we are going to
:40:54. > :41:00.cut our carbon emissions no slower, but also no faster than our fellow
:41:00. > :41:05.countries in Europe. Politicians need to think hard before embarking
:41:05. > :41:08.on what is a very costly way of achieving very little by way of
:41:08. > :41:18.emissions reductions, and putting those burdens on customers, who as
:41:18. > :41:21.I say, may just simply not be able to pay.
:41:21. > :41:27.You could hear everything before? The Prime Minister was looking ever
:41:27. > :41:36.so slightly today like a double glazing salesman. He wants to
:41:36. > :41:39.emphasise insulation and competition. But it may turn up the
:41:39. > :41:43.heat on the Government. At this point you want to hear the
:41:43. > :41:46.Government say why it won't intervene to stop spiralling prices.
:41:46. > :41:50.And the Energy Secretary did agree to sit on that chair in our
:41:50. > :41:53.Westminster studio, as you can see it remains ungraced by the
:41:53. > :41:56.ministerial bottom, who cancelled about 20 minutes or so before it
:41:56. > :42:01.was due to happen. However the shadow Energy Secretary, Caroline
:42:01. > :42:04.Flint, is less of a shrinking violet, she's here. You are not
:42:04. > :42:09.seriously maintaining there is some way of cutting people's energy
:42:09. > :42:13.bills, other thant mechanism suggested today? I am suggesting
:42:13. > :42:17.there is way energy bills could be cut. We could be making demands on
:42:17. > :42:22.the energy companies to reduce or postpone their prices. Why did'nt
:42:22. > :42:26.you do that in Government? Interestingly, back in 2009, we did
:42:26. > :42:29.negotiate with the energy companies to keep prices lower for the
:42:29. > :42:33.800,000 low income households, that was in force up to March of this
:42:33. > :42:37.year. We also had various other ways to keep prices down. But the
:42:37. > :42:43.fact is, prices are going up. Even though wholesale prices are going
:42:43. > :42:47.down. The honest person, as your leader, Ed Miliband is an honest
:42:47. > :42:52.person, he said there is no low- cost option? We can't necessary
:42:52. > :42:56.completely manage prices, but we ask the question, why is it, in our
:42:56. > :43:01.country, something like 80% of people, aren't on the tarrif that
:43:01. > :43:05.does the best deal for them. That is precisely what the Government is
:43:05. > :43:08.suggesting today, find out? Government are saying go tomorrow
:43:08. > :43:11.and switch. The problem when customers have tried to switch,
:43:11. > :43:14.they have found they are not given the right information, and they
:43:14. > :43:19.have been mis-sold packages that don't give them the best deal.
:43:19. > :43:23.would do it for them? We have said, as well as more pressure on the
:43:23. > :43:26.energy companies, we have a simpler tarrif system, we have 400 tarrifs
:43:26. > :43:30.increasing year-on-year. Let's bring it down to one standing
:43:30. > :43:34.charge set by Ofgem, and unit prices so we can all see which
:43:34. > :43:37.energy company is offering what to us and we can make a decision that
:43:37. > :43:41.is clear and fair. You accept that green policies do put up the cost
:43:41. > :43:45.of energy? It is interesting about this, Jeremy, I wanted to look at
:43:45. > :43:49.where green investment figured into the price. Actually, investment in
:43:49. > :43:55.renewables by the energy companies is only 5% of their overall price.
:43:55. > :43:58.So the idea that some how the price of green energy is causing these
:43:58. > :44:02.huge price increases, I don't think it is fair, and thril I don't think
:44:02. > :44:07.it is sustainable. But if we really want cheap energy, we would put up
:44:07. > :44:12.a lot of gas power stations wouldn't we? We have to think about
:44:12. > :44:16.our commitments to climate change. So that means more expensive energy,
:44:16. > :44:19.obviously? It means we have to have a fair and transparent pricing
:44:19. > :44:25.system, which we don't have. We have to invest in renewables, in
:44:25. > :44:30.the last year we have gone from third to 13th place in investing in
:44:31. > :44:34.renew nls. So we can use - renewables, so we can use less
:44:34. > :44:38.energy. Like China and other countries, if we don't invest, as
:44:38. > :44:43.George Osborne is suggesting, we won't be a world leader, and create
:44:43. > :44:47.the jobs that need to be part of a new economy. You do think it is
:44:47. > :44:50.fine to bankrupt Britain to save the world? No, I think it is
:44:50. > :44:54.recognising new forms of providing energy. We can't rely forever more
:44:54. > :44:57.on the existing forms of energy. It is about creating more investment
:44:57. > :45:01.in our economy, more jobs, to get us actually on the right track back
:45:01. > :45:05.to restoring our economy. So the honest politician would say, this
:45:05. > :45:08.is going to be painful, for a good while to come? No, the honest
:45:08. > :45:12.politician will say to you, there is something fundamentally wrong
:45:12. > :45:16.with our energy market. The tarrifs are complicated and people can't
:45:16. > :45:20.choose the right deal for them. There is misselling going on. The
:45:20. > :45:23.transparency of data, so we can really be clear about the price
:45:23. > :45:28.these energy companies are buying and selling energy for, is not
:45:28. > :45:32.transparent. Also, we have six big energy companies, who basically
:45:32. > :45:37.control 90% of the market, that needs to be opened up, that is what
:45:37. > :45:42.Ed Miliband has within talking about.
:45:42. > :45:45.- - been talking about. - - been talking about.
:45:45. > :45:55.On the newspapers now. Some GPs are restricted services
:45:55. > :46:26.
:46:26. > :46:31.because of the behaviour of That's it for now, the news
:46:31. > :46:41.machines fleet for homing pigeons of news has begun its journey here
:46:41. > :47:04.
:47:04. > :47:07.Hello there. A cold front is crossing the country. Guess what,
:47:07. > :47:11.it is introducing much colder air. The front will clear the far south-
:47:11. > :47:17.east early in the morning. We are in a run of chilly north-westerly
:47:17. > :47:21.winds. It there will be sun shy, but it won't help temperatures much.
:47:21. > :47:26.Showers rattling into the North West of England, some getting into
:47:26. > :47:32.the Lincolnshire and Yorkshire air. Most of East Anglia and the south
:47:32. > :47:35.having a bright afternoon. 12-13 is the best temperatures. One or two
:47:35. > :47:40.showers racing across England, but few and far between. Mo of the
:47:40. > :47:43.showers north across the UK. The north and west of Wales will catch
:47:43. > :47:48.the sharpest showers. Over the my ground of Northern Ireland, the
:47:48. > :47:53.showers will be wintry at times, temperatures 9-10.
:47:53. > :47:56.Certainly, the number of wintry showers over the Highlands could be
:47:56. > :48:01.a covering of snow. The more eastern parts of Scotland staying
:48:01. > :48:05.dry. The showers continuing into the night, it will be a pretty cold
:48:05. > :48:08.night nationwide. Many other north western parts of Europe will have a
:48:08. > :48:12.chilly few days, with blustery showers. Berlin staying mostly dry.
:48:12. > :48:15.Head for the south and east of Europe, down to the Mediterranean
:48:16. > :48:18.if you want sunshine. It is fine and dry and warmer as well. Back