:00:10. > :00:17.The outcome of the confrontation isn't in doubt, soon the police and
:00:17. > :00:20.bailiffs will have evicted the 80- odd families living illegally on
:00:20. > :00:25.green belt land in Dale Farm in Essex. The United Nations claims
:00:25. > :00:32.this amounts to state bullying of a minority. Is it? What alternative
:00:32. > :00:36.is there when people refuse to obey the law? One of the UN committee on
:00:36. > :00:41.the elimination of racism, believes we are being willfully blind to an
:00:41. > :00:45.injustice. Newsnight reveals the story of an
:00:45. > :00:50.undercover policeman who was then arrested and gave false evidence in
:00:50. > :00:53.court. It is a perversion of the legal process. I think it's
:00:53. > :00:57.institutionalised police corruption of the legal process for this to
:00:57. > :01:01.happen. As we go on air, it has emerged that our story has delayed
:01:01. > :01:04.an HMIC report into another undercover cop case, which was due
:01:04. > :01:08.tomorrow. What does the former Director of
:01:08. > :01:12.Public Prosecutions think of that? For the first time in British
:01:12. > :01:19.history, you can vote in a referendum, a referendum to shape
:01:19. > :01:22.the lives of your children. It has been the best part of four decades,
:01:22. > :01:26.and many Conservatives think it is long past the time that people in
:01:26. > :01:30.Britain had the chance to say what they think of membership of the
:01:30. > :01:34.European Union. Why doesn't their own party leader? Has the Fox
:01:35. > :01:39.episode brought lasting taint of scandal to - Liam Fox episode
:01:39. > :01:42.brought lasting taint of scandal to the Government. This week of all
:01:42. > :01:48.weeks, my advice to the Prime Minister, is show a bit of humility.
:01:48. > :01:58.I think we should have a little bit of humility from the people who
:01:58. > :02:03.
:02:03. > :02:07.gave us cabs for hire, passports For so-called travellers, they have
:02:07. > :02:10.been extremely reluctant to travel any where It kicked off early this
:02:10. > :02:15.morning after the legal process had been exhausted, and police and
:02:16. > :02:22.bailiffs moved in. It has been the staple fare of the news channels
:02:22. > :02:27.all day, as at an estimated cost to tax-payers of some �18 million, the
:02:27. > :02:31.illegal settlement in Dale Farm in Essex is cleared. The confrontation
:02:31. > :02:36.between them and the balaclavaed supporters, and the men and women
:02:36. > :02:39.in high-visibility jackets, provide the scenes that the electronic
:02:39. > :02:44.media love. We tried to look a little deeper.
:02:44. > :02:54.Dawn, in a once quiet corner of the Essex countryside. Hundreds of riot
:02:54. > :02:56.
:02:56. > :03:01.police moved in, as Dale Farm became a surreal battleground.
:03:01. > :03:08.Rocks, barricades and taunts, where all the travellers and their
:03:08. > :03:17.supporters had left to defend the largely illegal settlement. They
:03:17. > :03:22.have lost a ten-year courtroom battle. The eviction operation is
:03:22. > :03:28.budgeted to cost up to �17.5 million, enough money to have
:03:28. > :03:33.provided many new traveller sites. The defendants' defiance showed as
:03:33. > :03:37.a caravan went up in flames. They intend to fight yard by yard, over
:03:37. > :03:44.a site that is still a legal minefield. Some constructions can
:03:44. > :03:48.be knocked down, others can't. and 38 have full residential use,
:03:48. > :03:55.the yellow sections have full residential use.
:03:55. > :04:01.Inside the site, beyond police lines, there was an uneasy calm,
:04:01. > :04:05.but travellers claimed legally held property had been damaged.
:04:05. > :04:10.REPORTER: Why did they cross here? I don't know. We will have to ask
:04:10. > :04:13.them. Many families were beginning for evictions to begin in earnest?
:04:13. > :04:17.There is complete confusion with people here unsure how many more
:04:17. > :04:20.nights they will be able to stay and where they will move on to.
:04:21. > :04:26.There is also increasing uncertainty nationally over
:04:26. > :04:29.Government policy towards gypsies and travellers. Dale Farm is a test
:04:29. > :04:36.case, being closely watched by groups involved in similar
:04:36. > :04:45.controversy up and down the country. By councils, by travellers and by
:04:45. > :04:50.permanently settled residents. Gypsy activist Candy Sher din, is
:04:50. > :04:54.worried what other councils will learn from what happened here,
:04:54. > :04:59.where the council has worked so hard to remove the settlement.
:04:59. > :05:03.Firstly, I can't provide for my community, if the council won't
:05:03. > :05:08.provide the land or assist them in planning application, it sends the
:05:08. > :05:14.message, why bother, and that it is acceptable just to ignore us. That
:05:14. > :05:24.is appalling. The total number of gypsy caravans in England has risen
:05:24. > :05:29.
:05:29. > :05:32.What gypsies and travellers fear is that major changes to the planning
:05:32. > :05:42.rules, being proposed by the Government, would make it even
:05:42. > :05:44.
:05:44. > :05:50.harder for them to find authorised sites to live on. The Government is
:05:50. > :05:53.proposing to Regional targets. It is also bringing in a Localism Bill,
:05:53. > :05:57.which would give voters increased powers to object to particular
:05:57. > :06:01.developments. We know that the key obstacle against provision for gip
:06:01. > :06:06.say traveller sites comes at the local level. Discrimination at the
:06:06. > :06:10.local level, misconceptions at the local level, that gypsy sites will
:06:10. > :06:15.lead to crime and dysfunction in the communities. That isn't, in the
:06:15. > :06:20.majority of cases not true. With the regional spacial strategies
:06:20. > :06:23.combined and others will lead to a huge shortage of gypsy sites in the
:06:23. > :06:28.long-term. Current guidelines say that councils should address the
:06:28. > :06:32.underprovision of authorised sites, and should recognise, protect a
:06:32. > :06:35.facilitate the traditional travelling way of life. But the
:06:35. > :06:45.coalition Government's consultation document on planning for
:06:45. > :07:01.
:07:01. > :07:05.In Basildon Council says it is not against travellers, and will
:07:05. > :07:08.continue to provide sites for them, if they show more flexibility.
:07:08. > :07:11.There has to be a deal between travellers, local authorities and
:07:11. > :07:17.communities. The onus is on the travellers to find land that is
:07:17. > :07:20.suitable for development. Travellers in the past have gone
:07:20. > :07:24.for green belt sites, which is obviously not suitable for
:07:24. > :07:26.development, and very hard to get planning permission for. I really
:07:27. > :07:31.think there is an opportunity for the travellers now to move on and
:07:32. > :07:36.act within the law as well. But it won't be easy for travellers to
:07:36. > :07:40.find more appropriate sites. When so many settled residents oppose
:07:40. > :07:44.their presence. Dale Farm is being cleared in the interests of
:07:44. > :07:47.creating a level legal playing field for all. As its defenders
:07:47. > :07:53.prepare for another night of resistance, many here feel that the
:07:53. > :07:59.evictions are just another blow to a community whose way of life is
:07:59. > :08:05.being slowly, but steadily eroded. A little while ago I discussed some
:08:05. > :08:07.of the issues raised with Anastasia Crickley, a member of the United
:08:07. > :08:15.Nations committee on the Committee on the Elimination of Racial
:08:15. > :08:19.Discrimination, and with John Baron MP for Basildon and Billericay. I
:08:19. > :08:22.asked Miss Crickley what a planning application had to do with the
:08:22. > :08:25.United Nations. The situation in Dale Farm was something considered
:08:25. > :08:28.previously by the committee and brought to the attention of the
:08:28. > :08:31.committee by a number of groups representing the residents there.
:08:31. > :08:38.We are saying it is a matter that deserves consideration by a
:08:38. > :08:42.committee which is looking at the possibilities of racism and
:08:42. > :08:45.discrimination. John Baron? Basically it is a lot of tosh and
:08:45. > :08:49.nonsense and mindless meddling by an organisation that should know
:08:49. > :08:53.better. This is not about racial discrimination, this is about a
:08:53. > :08:58.planning regulation that has been brong, contravened, it is about us
:08:58. > :09:01.- broken, contravened, it is about us putting those planning
:09:01. > :09:06.regulations right on behalf of the local majority. They talk about
:09:06. > :09:09.human rights, but what they forget is we all have human rights,
:09:09. > :09:13.including the law-abiding majority, and one of those is an expectation
:09:13. > :09:18.that the law will be applied equitably and fairly, and there
:09:18. > :09:22.should be no exceptions to that. Why should these people be treated
:09:22. > :09:29.any differently to everyone else in in country? It is absolutely the
:09:29. > :09:33.case that in every country, which is a party to the Convention on The
:09:33. > :09:36.elimination of racism, that there is an impolicement acknowledgement
:09:36. > :09:40.that there can be racism in that country. It is the case that you
:09:40. > :09:43.don't achieve equality in any country, in any circumstances, by
:09:43. > :09:53.pretending that everybody is automatically equal, and
:09:53. > :09:56.automatically has equal access to the law or their rights. Otherwise.
:09:56. > :09:59.You're absolutely right. You are barking up completely the
:09:59. > :10:02.wrong tree, make this absolutely clear, this is not about racial
:10:02. > :10:12.discrimination, this is about enforcing the law, which has been
:10:12. > :10:13.
:10:13. > :10:16.broken by a group of people who knew they were breaking the law.
:10:16. > :10:19.Our courts decided they were breaking the law and we are
:10:19. > :10:24.enforcing that law. Can I suggest something useful for you to do, get
:10:24. > :10:27.on to the travellers and tell them to call off their protestors using
:10:27. > :10:34.violence against the police. This has involved arrests, throwing of
:10:34. > :10:37.stones, iron bars and so forth, because the protestors are there at
:10:37. > :10:41.the behest of the travellers, and courts have told them that site
:10:41. > :10:44.should be cleared. That is something you could do on behalf of
:10:45. > :10:50.the law-abiding majority and help minimise the violence at present
:10:50. > :10:53.taking place there. First of all there seems to be an implicit
:10:53. > :10:57.assumption that the law-abiding majority do not include travellers
:10:57. > :11:02.or gypsies or include any of the traveller or gypsy community who
:11:02. > :11:06.happens to be living in Dale Farm. That's a useful assumption to make
:11:06. > :11:11.I don't think. Secondly, the circumstances in which people find
:11:11. > :11:15.themselves is ones they must judge and they must make their own
:11:15. > :11:20.decision about the best action to take at this time. Can I take you
:11:20. > :11:24.will not do anything useful and ask them to stop the violence.
:11:24. > :11:26.committee that is responsible for monitoring the implementation of
:11:26. > :11:30.the UN Convention on The elimination of racism has said, we
:11:31. > :11:34.have said there is a case for culturally appropriate
:11:34. > :11:39.accommodation to be provided and identified and provided for the
:11:39. > :11:43.people who are residents in Dale Farm. For the avoidance of any
:11:43. > :11:45.doubt, what is culturally appropriate accommodation?
:11:45. > :11:50.Culturally appropriate accommodation, is accommodation, as
:11:50. > :11:54.I understand it, which has been looked at by other UN committees,
:11:54. > :11:58.which allows for collective expression of culture. Look you
:11:58. > :12:01.signed up to this report, can you please tell us what you meant by
:12:01. > :12:08.talking about the provision of culturally appropriate
:12:08. > :12:12.accommodation, what is it? What we invited and encouraged your
:12:12. > :12:15.Government and your authorities to do is to look to the provision of
:12:15. > :12:22.accommodation which meets the needs and requirements of the community
:12:22. > :12:28.that are there. What do you mean? I'm aware that there have been,
:12:28. > :12:30.what I mean is we do not consider provision of homeless families
:12:30. > :12:38.accommodation to be culturally appropriate accommodation. Because
:12:38. > :12:42.they are not homeless families? This whole situation has emerged
:12:42. > :12:46.because of the reality that the Roma and travelling people that
:12:46. > :12:49.live there, want to live in the way in which they have traditionally
:12:49. > :12:55.lived. That is not the desire of all traveller people in the UK or
:12:55. > :12:59.other parts of Europe, or other parts of the world. It is an
:12:59. > :13:04.acknowledgement of their diversity on their difference. That is what
:13:04. > :13:08.we are asking that your Government and yourself does. Can you help us,
:13:09. > :13:12.why haven't you provided culturally appropriate accommodation? We have,
:13:12. > :13:14.we have 110 authorised sites and pitches locally, many more than any
:13:15. > :13:18.other local authorities. We have offered bricks and mortar, so
:13:18. > :13:22.nobody needs to be homeless, but the travellers themselves have
:13:22. > :13:25.refused that. We have also made the travellers aware of other vacant
:13:25. > :13:29.authorised sites in other parts of the country, they have said they
:13:29. > :13:33.don't want to travel. There is only so much we can do. At the end of
:13:33. > :13:36.the day they have broken the law and that site will be cleared, we
:13:36. > :13:40.hope, as peacefully as possible. Where are they tonight those
:13:40. > :13:44.families who have left? We don't know for sure, they are not on the
:13:44. > :13:48.side of the road, or in the Tesco car parks as they said they would
:13:48. > :13:53.be. There are all sorts of reports, but they are not homeless, as far
:13:53. > :13:57.as we know. The game is over, the problem is finished, once they are
:13:57. > :14:01.somebody else's problem? It is not quite like that. We have said we
:14:01. > :14:04.have obligations to meet, we have offered accommodation, that is
:14:04. > :14:07.refused by travellers. We have made them aware of vacant authorised
:14:07. > :14:12.sites elsewhere, that has been refused, we have provided more
:14:12. > :14:15.sites than anywhere else. We are not trying to wash our hands of it,
:14:15. > :14:17.this site needs to be cleared, because they have broken the law
:14:17. > :14:21.and the law-abiding majority expect that site to be cleared, and it
:14:21. > :14:23.will be cleared. Could I suggest to you that there are a number of
:14:23. > :14:27.useful things that you and your colleagues might be able to
:14:27. > :14:31.consider doing as well. Such as engaging in direct consultation
:14:31. > :14:40.with the travellers and with the people who have been evicted to
:14:40. > :14:43.make sure that their circumstances are not worsened over the next few
:14:43. > :14:48.weeks. We have engaged for ten years, the time for talking is over.
:14:48. > :14:53.I'm not talking about the rights and wrongs of the current situation,
:14:53. > :14:57.I'm aware of the hardship it has caused for the travellers, and also
:14:57. > :15:00.the extent it can exasperate further discrimination against
:15:00. > :15:05.travellers. If I could call on the honourable member of Parliament and
:15:05. > :15:10.others watching the programme, I would call on them and the media to
:15:10. > :15:12.ensure this does nothing to exasperate further the real
:15:12. > :15:17.discrimination experienced by travellers and gypsies in the UK
:15:17. > :15:22.and other countries in Europe. Thank you very much. So far this
:15:22. > :15:28.year there have been no fewer than eight inquiries set up after the
:15:28. > :15:34.discovery that undercover police have been used to infiltrate
:15:34. > :15:38.political organisations. There may be a ninth soon, tonight Newsnight
:15:38. > :15:46.has evidence of another operation where an undercover policeman gave
:15:46. > :15:51.false evidence in court. He became an undercover activist on Reclaim
:15:51. > :16:01.the Streets campaign. These latest revelations have delayed the report
:16:01. > :16:01.
:16:01. > :16:05.into another undercover cop case due tomorrow.
:16:05. > :16:08.Though this story has only just come to light, it can be traced
:16:08. > :16:12.back to this demonstration in central London in August 1996.
:16:12. > :16:16.Traffic was brought it a halt by protestors from a non-violent, pro-
:16:16. > :16:20.cycling Campaign Group, called Reclaim the Streets. Prominent
:16:20. > :16:25.among them was an activist called Jim Sutton. Jim was very practical,
:16:25. > :16:28.he was the man with the van. He was super-practical, he was there right
:16:28. > :16:32.at the centre of stuff. A splinter group of demonstrators left
:16:32. > :16:36.Trafalgar Square and came here to St James's Park, to the
:16:37. > :16:42.headquarters of London Underground, amongst them was John Jordan, an
:16:42. > :16:46.activist, and Sutton sut, the undercover policeman. They went
:16:46. > :16:51.into the building and up the stairsment their aim was to get to
:16:51. > :16:55.the seventh floor and the chairman's office, to unfurl a
:16:55. > :17:00.banner. Jim Sutton, the policeman, was playing a leading role. The
:17:00. > :17:05.protestors were here in support of a tube drivers' strike. Jim Sutton
:17:05. > :17:09.was an undercover cop, working with the Metropolitan Police unit,
:17:09. > :17:13.charged with looking at protest movements. As part of the protest
:17:13. > :17:17.group, John Jordan was one of the targets. We occupied the building,
:17:17. > :17:23.we went up, some people got up to the chairman's office, including
:17:23. > :17:26.Jim. Jim went out, put massive banner, which said "don't squeeze
:17:26. > :17:31.the tube". He said the police arrived remarkably quickly, and
:17:31. > :17:37.there were scuffles, as he went upstairs he picked up a policeman's
:17:37. > :17:41.helmet on the ground. Lift doors opened, riot police out, arrest us
:17:41. > :17:45.all, I had the policeman's helmet under my jumper. Clearly I wasn't
:17:45. > :17:50.pregnant. I get arrested. Get to the police station and I'm charged
:17:50. > :17:54.with assault of a police officer. Clearly something I didn't do.
:17:54. > :17:57.activists, including Jim Sutton, were brought here to Charring Cross
:17:58. > :18:04.police station in central London for questioning. They sought legal
:18:04. > :18:07.advice, and a solicitor, from the birm, Bindmans, attended. We have
:18:07. > :18:12.obtained copies of the custody records, it shows Jim Sutton was
:18:12. > :18:22.using his fake name and cover as a cleaner, what police intelligence
:18:22. > :18:26.
:18:26. > :18:29.experts call, his legend. His Jim Sutton and 12 other activists
:18:29. > :18:33.were later charged with public order offences, the undercover cop
:18:33. > :18:37.was entering the legal process. This didn't emerge until now. After
:18:37. > :18:41.all the reporting earlier this year about undercover cop Mark Kennedy,
:18:41. > :18:47.Jim Sutton's name appeared in the media, as another undercover
:18:47. > :18:51.operative. The solicitor working on the Kennedy cases of curious.
:18:52. > :18:55.looked at our records, our records confirmed one of them, Jim Sutton,
:18:55. > :18:59.had been a client of our's. must have been amazed when you saw
:18:59. > :19:04.that? I was shocked. I thought it couldn't be true. But it is true.
:19:04. > :19:08.John Jordan, and the others, thought Jim Sutton was a fellow
:19:08. > :19:12.defendant, when their cases all went to a criminal trial. He would
:19:12. > :19:16.have given evidence under oath about who he was b what had
:19:16. > :19:20.happened, and - about what had happened, and as serious, he
:19:20. > :19:25.allowed himself to be put in a position where he was arrested,
:19:25. > :19:30.charged and prosecuted, and potentially convicted of a criminal
:19:30. > :19:33.offence. Just because the District Judge found him not guilty that he
:19:33. > :19:36.wasn't convicted. He and his minders allowed him to be put in a
:19:36. > :19:41.position where he could be found guilty of a criminal offence. If
:19:41. > :19:44.that is a criminal offence committed by a serving undercover
:19:44. > :19:48.police officer, giving evidence on oath, with the benefit of
:19:48. > :19:50.privileged legal advice, he shouldn't have had, that is most
:19:50. > :19:55.serious. Bindmans have asked for an
:19:55. > :20:00.explanation from the Metropolitan Police, and the CPS, but are yet to
:20:00. > :20:04.receive an answer. We asked a Lib Dem member of the Metropolitan
:20:04. > :20:08.Police authority for her reaction tonight? It is almost beyond belief.
:20:08. > :20:13.I'm coming to terms with the fact that it has happened, but it is
:20:13. > :20:17.just, it beggers belief. How on earth can that happen? It make as
:20:17. > :20:23.complete mockery of the judicial system. There are some very serious
:20:23. > :20:28.questions that must be asked of the police, that is, who in the Met
:20:28. > :20:34.authorised it, if anyone? If they authorised it, why did they
:20:34. > :20:44.authorised it, and is that - authorise it, and why are they
:20:44. > :20:45.
:20:45. > :20:49.working for the Met. That is what I will be asking at the meeting of
:20:49. > :20:54.metropolitan police officers. John Jordan was found guilty, and
:20:54. > :20:57.is wondering if that is safe? have jobs where I'm working with
:20:57. > :21:04.students and to have assault of a police officer on your record was
:21:04. > :21:09.difficult. I think it is a perversion of the legal process. I
:21:09. > :21:13.think it is institutionalised police corruption and the legal
:21:13. > :21:17.process for this to happen. At the very least they ought to have
:21:17. > :21:21.explained up front what their acceptable limits are, so that the
:21:21. > :21:25.public, politicians and judges, who might or should be regulating their
:21:25. > :21:28.activity, could have a say and a view. They seem to have gone
:21:28. > :21:33.freelance on this. The Metropolitan Police declined to
:21:33. > :21:37.comment today on this specific case, but pointed us towards new
:21:37. > :21:41.legislation from 2000 that should have made it impossible for
:21:41. > :21:45.undercover police officers to give evidence in court under their false
:21:45. > :21:49.identities. The question is now, how many cases went through before
:21:49. > :21:54.this case. Further developments tonight, I
:21:54. > :21:57.gather? Extraordinary development, 15 minutes ago, the HM Inspectorate
:21:57. > :22:00.of Constabulary, due to launch a very important report tomorrow,
:22:00. > :22:04.about the use of undercover officers and the protocol
:22:04. > :22:08.surrounding that. They say in light of the revelations in the media
:22:08. > :22:11.today, they are delaying the launch of the report, so they can consider
:22:11. > :22:15.the relevance of this information, and the recommendations for
:22:15. > :22:17.improvements in undercover policing. We will write to the Guardian and
:22:17. > :22:19.Newsnight to find out additional information they have. The
:22:19. > :22:24.Metropolitan Police have been changing their line on this, I
:22:24. > :22:27.think it is fair to say, all day, at first it was a "no comment",
:22:27. > :22:32.then it became a procedural amount of information about the use of
:22:32. > :22:34.undercover officers. Just tonight in the last six minutes, they have
:22:34. > :22:37.said that the Metropolitan Police Service acknowledges these are
:22:37. > :22:41.serious matters, and is continuing to review the situation and taking
:22:41. > :22:47.account of any additional information becoming available.
:22:47. > :22:50.This story is moving very fast. former Director of Public
:22:50. > :22:54.Prosecutions in England and Wales is here now to react to tonight's
:22:54. > :22:57.story. What do you make of this latest disclosure about an
:22:57. > :23:02.undercover policeman? Well they have crossed the line. You don't
:23:02. > :23:05.send police officers into court to lie about who they are b their
:23:05. > :23:11.identity b what their role is - about their identity, about what
:23:11. > :23:15.their role is in investigations. You don't send them into
:23:15. > :23:19.solicitors' offices and pretending to be party to legal conferences.
:23:19. > :23:24.It is a serious issue and they have crossed the line. What does it do
:23:24. > :23:30.to the convictions of anyone arrested and convicted in those
:23:30. > :23:35.circumstances? It causes issues, if I was in the dock with an
:23:35. > :23:38.undercover police officer and I had advised both defendants in the
:23:38. > :23:42.trial, I would go to the Court of Appeal saying the conviction is
:23:42. > :23:47.unsafe and it has to be overturned. I'm sure that is what will happen
:23:47. > :23:51.were defence lawyers are confident this is the situation. Has to be
:23:51. > :23:54.overturned because? Because you have a situation where a police
:23:54. > :23:59.officer is posing as a defendant, is party to defence conferences
:23:59. > :24:04.with his lawyers, the other defendant's lawyers, is party to
:24:04. > :24:07.confidential information, may be passing it back to his handlers,
:24:07. > :24:11.and going in to court as part of the defence team, telling lies.
:24:11. > :24:16.knows what the defence likely to be? He knows the defence. He may be
:24:16. > :24:19.reporting it back to the police, that may in all sorts of ways
:24:20. > :24:23.affect the way the case is conducted. It is clearly, it seems
:24:23. > :24:28.to me clearly the Court of Appeal with regard a conviction in those
:24:28. > :24:33.circumstances as being potentially unsafe. Do you think this latest
:24:33. > :24:37.revelation makes the case for yet another inquiry? The report that
:24:37. > :24:41.was to be released tomorrow has been held back. I'm not at all
:24:41. > :24:45.surprised by that. I think the authors of that report are going to
:24:45. > :24:48.have to stand back, look at the evidence that you have produced and
:24:48. > :24:52.the Guardian has produced, and see how that impacts on the research
:24:52. > :24:56.they have done. This is a very serious development. This seems to
:24:56. > :24:59.be part of pattern of behaviour of undercover police officers in
:24:59. > :25:03.groups that are not particularly dangerous. We are not talking about
:25:03. > :25:08.terrorists here. It is a bunch of cyclists? We are not talking about
:25:08. > :25:11.terrorists, it is a cyclist Campaign Group. This is what is so
:25:11. > :25:14.difficult to understand the police would have taken the risk of
:25:14. > :25:18.putting people into these situations and into court, not
:25:18. > :25:22.because they are combatting serious crime, but because people are
:25:22. > :25:24.stopping the traffic. That seems to be, on the face of it, a monumental
:25:24. > :25:28.misjudgment. Thank you. The British people
:25:28. > :25:31.aren't going to be given the chance to vote on whether the country
:25:31. > :25:34.should remain part of the European Union. At least they won't, if the
:25:34. > :25:38.Prime Minister gets his way. He says such a vote would be a
:25:38. > :25:41.distraction at a time when the EU needs to be dealing with issues
:25:41. > :25:44.causing riots in Greece and threatening the whole European
:25:44. > :25:49.project. But the deeper issue of whether
:25:49. > :25:54.Britain should be in the EU at all is in the bloodstream of the Tory
:25:54. > :25:58.Party, like some dormant, but potentially paralysing, virus.
:25:58. > :26:02.This was David Cameron's response to a question on the vote on the
:26:02. > :26:06.future of Britain in the European Union? I completely understand and
:26:06. > :26:08.share the frustration that many have about the way the European
:26:08. > :26:14.Union goes about its business, about the costs and butter oxcy.
:26:14. > :26:19.But I have to say, I think the - bureaucracy. But I have to say the
:26:19. > :26:23.key point here is to get on top of the budget, keep Britain out of the
:26:23. > :26:26.bailout schemes, make sure the single market is working. As the
:26:26. > :26:29.Conservative Party we are committed to the return of powers from
:26:29. > :26:33.Brussels to Westminster, we are also committed as a Government, if
:26:33. > :26:36.power passes from Brussels to, from Westminster to Brussels, there
:26:36. > :26:40.would have to be a referendum. That promise is good for the whole of
:26:40. > :26:46.this Parliament and beyond. But I don't support holding a referendum
:26:46. > :26:50.come what may. That is not our policy and I will not be supporting
:26:50. > :26:54.that motion. What is in this motion? I think never mind Dale
:26:54. > :26:57.Farm, there is a stand-off going on at Westminster at the moment. An
:26:57. > :27:00.act of rebellion against the Prime Minister a bit of hostility, it is
:27:00. > :27:05.this motion at the core of it. This isn't a motion simply about
:27:05. > :27:08.withdrawing from the EU. It is a backbench motion which is designed
:27:09. > :27:12.to maximise Euro-sceptic report, by giving three potentially options in
:27:12. > :27:16.the referendum. Those options would be, remaining a member of the
:27:16. > :27:19.European Union on the current terms, leaving the European Union entirely,
:27:19. > :27:23.or renegotiating the terms of membership to carry on a new
:27:23. > :27:26.relationship with Europe. That is quite clever, because the centre of
:27:26. > :27:31.gravity in the Conservative parliamentary party is in the last
:27:31. > :27:34.point on renegotiation. Only about 30 MPs across the House want to
:27:34. > :27:38.leave. That puts pressure on the Prime Minister. Officially 46
:27:38. > :27:42.backbench MPs have signed up to the multioption motion on the
:27:42. > :27:45.referendum, I'm told tonight as many as 80 Conservatives might be
:27:45. > :27:49.prepared to rebel against the Government line by voting this down
:27:49. > :27:54.when it is debated early next week. The reason the Government sees it
:27:54. > :27:56.as a an act of rebellion, is because the option of - as an act
:27:56. > :28:00.of rebellion is the option of complete withdrawal from the
:28:01. > :28:04.European Union is there. Presumably Labour won't go along with this,
:28:05. > :28:08.maybe they will, I don't know, the Liberal Democrats certainly won't?
:28:08. > :28:12.The Liberal Democrats certainly don't. And the latest from Labour
:28:12. > :28:14.is they will whip against it too. The Prime Minister is in a hole, he
:28:14. > :28:18.doesn't necessarily want further splits and divisions on Europe.
:28:18. > :28:20.This was supposed to be discussed next Thursday, it is brought
:28:20. > :28:25.forward now to Monday, when the Prime Minister and the Foreign
:28:26. > :28:30.Secretary can be present. The reason for that is partly the Prime
:28:30. > :28:38.Minister's presence, which will communicate to waivers they
:28:38. > :28:44.shouldn't mess with him if we want a career. William Hague is a famous
:28:45. > :28:49.Euro-sceptic, but in the current circumstance in the mids of the
:28:49. > :28:55.European crisis remotion isn't there. It is a backbench motion and
:28:56. > :28:59.not binding, so there are calls for a free vote on it, and wipe out the
:28:59. > :29:05.rebellion at one fell swoop. For the Prime Minister it may look like
:29:05. > :29:10.an act of weaks in, at the moment it looks like - weakness, at the
:29:11. > :29:20.moment they willth looks he will try to face them down. I'm joined
:29:21. > :29:21.
:29:21. > :29:25.by my guests now. My guest was expelled from the
:29:25. > :29:29.Conservative Party after arguments over European partners. Why do you
:29:30. > :29:34.want to embarrass your leaders? don't, I want to make sure the
:29:34. > :29:38.British people have a right to decide their future. People are
:29:38. > :29:42.crying out for a referendum. This will undermine him? No, actually,
:29:42. > :29:50.what needs to happen is the British people to express their views.
:29:50. > :29:54.David Cameron has a very strong negotiating tour - tool when he
:29:54. > :29:58.goes to Brussels to sort all this out. We were told was a market and
:29:58. > :30:02.not a European Union, and that is not what we voted for and people
:30:02. > :30:07.are fed up with it. It says a lot about the state of the Tory Party?
:30:07. > :30:14.I think David Cameron is right. This is a Daily Express engineered
:30:14. > :30:17.operation, I think he's right to say that it should not lead to
:30:17. > :30:21.something - anything but a debate in the House of Commons. That is
:30:21. > :30:25.what the 100,000 signatures get, but nothing else. If, on the other
:30:25. > :30:29.hand, at some point in the next few years, during the lifetime of this
:30:29. > :30:34.Government, there should be any fundamental change proposed between
:30:34. > :30:37.the UK and the European Union, then there will be a referendum. That is
:30:37. > :30:43.absolutely clear. I'm sure Andrew will agree, that is the right
:30:43. > :30:49.approach. To have some sort of, as David Cameron said, willy nilly,
:30:49. > :30:53.and I'm agreeing with him for once, referendum that would be wrong.
:30:53. > :31:00.Suppose there is a three-line whip next week, would you defy it?
:31:00. > :31:04.point is, we have three options, in, out or a new relationship. There is
:31:04. > :31:07.thrae-line whip saying there is no referendum? I think the majority of
:31:07. > :31:10.the population would like to see a new relationship with the European
:31:10. > :31:15.Union based on trade and co- operation, not political union.
:31:15. > :31:18.you prepared to defy the Prime Minister? We will all talk to
:31:18. > :31:21.constituents this weekend and make a decision. Of course I'm prepared
:31:21. > :31:26.to vote for a referendum, I said that today in the House of Commons.
:31:26. > :31:30.Even if there is a three-line whip telling you not to? We don't know
:31:30. > :31:36.the situation on Monday. Would you defy it? I'm sure Mr Cameron would
:31:36. > :31:43.want to keep the party together. Would you defy a three-line whip?
:31:43. > :31:47.would sooner a free vote. Would you defy it? I'm prepared to vote for a
:31:47. > :31:50.referendum. Would you defy a three- line whip? If necessary, what is to
:31:50. > :31:55.be done to obtain the referendum. You still haven't answered the
:31:55. > :31:58.question? Yes, I would. That is what the British people deserve.
:31:58. > :32:02.With the Prime Minister present in the chamber, you feel sufficiently
:32:02. > :32:05.strongly to defy? We don't know the situation on Monday. But the mood
:32:05. > :32:08.of the country and the parliamentary party, is to have a
:32:08. > :32:11.referendum. I hope the Prime Minister will give us a free vote
:32:11. > :32:14.on that. Edward McMillan-Scott, what does this tell us about the
:32:14. > :32:18.state and the mood of the Tory Party now? And for years there has
:32:18. > :32:24.been a problem in the Tory Party, it is what led to my moving out of
:32:24. > :32:29.it. The increasing Euro-scepticism of the Tory Party has been marked
:32:29. > :32:34.by all commentators. Andrwe Rosindell is part of that it's a
:32:34. > :32:39.long standing right-winger, and adorns his dog in the Union Jack
:32:39. > :32:42.and so on. Not a crime? Not at all. But it is part of a process that
:32:42. > :32:47.has led the Conservative Party in the House of Commons, and in the
:32:47. > :32:50.country at large, from being a broadly rational party on Europe to
:32:50. > :32:54.one that is now becoming rather more extreme than it should be. I
:32:54. > :33:02.think David Cameron's problem is, in Government, as Prime Minister,
:33:02. > :33:08.and sharing power with the party, which has been broadly speaking
:33:08. > :33:11.pro-European throughout his lifetime, not madly,. Has it
:33:11. > :33:16.occurred to you why so many people in the Tory Party would want a
:33:16. > :33:21.referendum is because the European Union has turned into something we
:33:21. > :33:24.were never told it would be and it is a walking disaster? It is not
:33:24. > :33:29.walking disaster. This weekend we have a European Summit about the
:33:29. > :33:33.euro, the euro is in crisis, but it has created 14 million jobs and
:33:33. > :33:36.kept inflation at 2% for ten years. It is not walking disaster. But
:33:36. > :33:41.there are problems, systemic problems. We want reform, that is
:33:41. > :33:44.what we should be doing. This noises off from the House of
:33:44. > :33:48.Commons is not going to help in the crisis the European Union is in. We
:33:48. > :33:51.want the European Union to work. David Cameron says he wants it too.
:33:51. > :33:56.The mood of the country has changed dramatically. People want the
:33:56. > :33:59.choice. People want to be part of Europe for trade and co-operation.
:33:59. > :34:06.The Express does. They don't want to be part of political European,
:34:06. > :34:11.they never wanted that. You are dancing to the UKIP tune. And the
:34:11. > :34:18.Express tune? UKIP and the Express have worked together on this
:34:18. > :34:24.campaign, as you know. As apologies go they tried to have it both ways,
:34:24. > :34:27.Liam Fox conceded he had done wrong in blurring the distinctions
:34:27. > :34:31.between professional responsibility and personal loyalties, and not
:34:31. > :34:35.listening to the warnings he was given during it. He couldn't do
:34:35. > :34:42.anything else after the nature of the findings against him. He did
:34:42. > :34:49.point out the media hounding people close to him and throughout the
:34:49. > :34:55.affair. His behaviour has cost him sis job.
:34:55. > :34:59.The new stage version of the classic Yes Prime Minister, is a
:34:59. > :35:03.reminder that the language of Westminster village can be
:35:03. > :35:07.difficult to decipher. That might precipitate operational
:35:07. > :35:16.uncertainties down the line. So that there would be a presumed
:35:16. > :35:19.modicum of iron clad resipcosity that would be to everybody's
:35:20. > :35:25.advantage. The corridors of power resound to rumour, who is in and
:35:25. > :35:28.out, but Liam Fox's resignation has been eagerly followed by a much
:35:28. > :35:32.wider audience. He made it clear today that the last few weeks have
:35:32. > :35:37.been far from a laughing matter. I'm very sorry to my colleagues
:35:37. > :35:42.here in the House and all those let down by the decisions I have made.
:35:42. > :35:47.He said his resignation was without rancour, and it almost was. Last
:35:47. > :35:52.week's media frenzy was not unprecedented, it happens. Where a
:35:52. > :35:56.free press and politics collide. I believe, there was, some from
:35:56. > :36:00.quarters, a personal vindictiveness, even hatred that should worry all
:36:00. > :36:02.of us. The feeding frenzy could tfpblt the Parliamentary
:36:02. > :36:07.Commissioner for Standards is to investigate Liam Fox, and the
:36:07. > :36:10.Government is to publish a full list of ministers who have met his
:36:10. > :36:14.unofficial advisor, Adam Werritty. The public's perception is the
:36:14. > :36:19.politicians, not the media, are to blame. Outside the Westminster
:36:19. > :36:22.bubble, the public perception is that this has impacted David
:36:22. > :36:26.Cameron and the Conservatives, and it is, once again, raising the
:36:26. > :36:30.issue of whether people can trust politicians. So I think that's
:36:30. > :36:34.actually the key things that Cameron is going to have to now
:36:34. > :36:37.address. In the House of Commons today, Ed Miliband tried to exploit
:36:37. > :36:41.this? A piece of advice to the Prime Minister, this week of all
:36:41. > :36:46.weeks, show a bit of humility. think we should have a bit of
:36:46. > :36:53.humility from the people who gave us, cabs for hire, passports for
:36:53. > :36:58.favours, mortgages for mates. Dodgy dossiers. This is a Prime
:36:58. > :37:02.Minister and we see a pattern of activity with him. A pattern of
:37:02. > :37:06.activity he doesn't ask the tough questions of those around him, and
:37:06. > :37:08.when anything goes wrong, it is nothing to do with him. He may have
:37:08. > :37:12.rattled David Cameron, but the leader of the opposition shouldn't
:37:12. > :37:15.be too satisfied. At the moment Cameron has to deal with this issue
:37:15. > :37:19.of trust in politicians widely, actually the whole of Westminster
:37:19. > :37:26.is facing that. But Ed Miliband, currently, doesn't really hold the
:37:26. > :37:32.confidence of the public that he will be any better. So who are the
:37:32. > :37:35.real winners in the drama surrounding Liam Fox. Some seem to
:37:35. > :37:39.regard the Civil Service as the real opposition, people don't like
:37:39. > :37:43.sofa Government they like everything minuted and recorded,
:37:43. > :37:48.today marked another shift in that direction. Or to put in Whitehall
:37:48. > :37:51.speak, the senior echelons of the Civil Service decided to oversee
:37:51. > :37:56.surveillance to people appointed to ministerial office by the Prime
:37:56. > :37:59.Minister. Or something like that. Today the Government said they
:37:59. > :38:06.accepted the recommendations of the Cabinet Secretary, which would
:38:06. > :38:11.allow civil servants to keep a closer eye on their ministers.
:38:11. > :38:15.should attend all meetings overseas. If ministers step out of line,
:38:15. > :38:18.civil servants will report them to higher authorities? The permanent
:38:18. > :38:21.secretary should take responsibility for-to-make sure
:38:22. > :38:24.departmental procedures are followed and raising concerns with
:38:24. > :38:29.ministers, advising the Cabinet Secretary, and ultimately the Prime
:38:29. > :38:32.Minister, where such concerns are not resolved. A former Conservative
:38:32. > :38:37.cabinet ministers, believes this place has too much power in the
:38:37. > :38:42.face of unelected officials. I was a junior minister under Peter
:38:42. > :38:46.Walker, who confronted this issue, and had ministerial meetings most
:38:46. > :38:50.mornings without officials present. There was a degree of confrontation.
:38:50. > :38:53.And the permanent secretary said to Peter, well, first, how will we
:38:53. > :38:57.know what your ministers have decided if one of our people are
:38:57. > :39:00.not there. Peter replied, and he said, I will tell you. That, they
:39:01. > :39:07.didn't like. They fought again and he eventually turned and said I
:39:07. > :39:11.will do a deal with you. If I let you have one of my officials in my
:39:11. > :39:15.ministerial meetings, you will let me have one of my ministers in your
:39:15. > :39:25.official meetings. Game, set and match. The Cabinet Secretary hasn't
:39:25. > :39:28.
:39:28. > :39:31.responded to that kind of criticism. I asked the next best thing, Sir
:39:31. > :39:38.Humphrey BaAppleton? I will give you a serious answer to be
:39:38. > :39:41.considered in its context. Certain proadvisors have to be considered,
:39:41. > :39:43.postu lated, designated and specified, a number of
:39:43. > :39:48.considerations have to be conceded sometimes.
:39:48. > :39:53.Is that a yes or a no? Don't you think that yes, and no, are rather
:39:53. > :40:01.broad and unspecific in their applications Mr Watson?
:40:01. > :40:05.With us now are Philip Collins, who writes for the Times and a former
:40:05. > :40:10.speech write Forcione Tony Blair, and my other guests.
:40:10. > :40:13.How big a deal do you think this Liam Fox scandal is? Well, not many
:40:13. > :40:17.things in politics really matter all that much. This problem isn't
:40:17. > :40:21.one of them. I think for most people they will celebrate the
:40:21. > :40:24.resignation of Liam Fox quietly at home. But it matters in this sense.
:40:24. > :40:32.That anyone who is inclined to think that politicians have all got
:40:32. > :40:36.their noses face down in the trough, has got ample confirmation. It is a
:40:36. > :40:41.tiny little world, politicians, lobbyists and advisors, it doesn't
:40:41. > :40:45.look good, does it? I think that's right. The trauma that was the
:40:45. > :40:48.expenses scandal has not been digested by the political world. I
:40:48. > :40:53.think they are still really in denial about how angry the public
:40:53. > :40:58.were about that, still are. They are not paying enough attention. A
:40:58. > :41:01.story like this reconfirms people's worst beliefs. Do you think there
:41:02. > :41:05.is a possibility of the whole sleaze thing coming back? Number
:41:05. > :41:09.Ten were relaxed about the story, because they thought Liam Fox was
:41:09. > :41:15.so distant in Westminster terms from David Cameron, this wouldn't
:41:15. > :41:20.attach personally to Cameron or his Government. Clearly the Fox
:41:20. > :41:30.situation was where no other minister has a friend following him
:41:30. > :41:35.around the globe like Liam Fox did. You have MPs expenses and trust in
:41:35. > :41:38.politics never being lower, combine that with the incredibly tight
:41:38. > :41:42.economic standards, putting a squeeze on people's living
:41:42. > :41:47.standards and an anti-politics mood out there. It will only take one or
:41:47. > :41:52.two more cases like this for a real public backlash against it. That is
:41:52. > :41:55.the danger for the coalition. dangerous for the Government f they
:41:55. > :42:00.allow the idea to take hold that they play by different rules from
:42:01. > :42:05.the rest of us, and they can carry on doing whatever they like. Liam
:42:05. > :42:09.Fox's statement today exhibited the exact arrogance and detatchment
:42:09. > :42:16.that got him into trouble in the first place. This if that attaches
:42:16. > :42:24.to the Government they could be in trouble. It could snowball, if it
:42:24. > :42:28.remains an incident in its own light that it is goodbye Liam Fox.
:42:28. > :42:32.I thought that Ed Miliband led on PMQs, and David Cameron was
:42:32. > :42:36.dismissive of him and effective. There was one moment when you saw a
:42:36. > :42:41.tremor of fear pass through the front bench on the Tories, when Ed
:42:41. > :42:44.Miliband said to David Cameron, by being different did you mean your
:42:44. > :42:49.press officer would get arrested and your Defence Secretary had to
:42:49. > :42:54.resign. You saw them all leaning back and going crikey, that is the
:42:54. > :42:57.danger. On the Werritty story there are these strange echos of the
:42:57. > :43:01.Coulson story, the peculiar idea that if you are loyal to your
:43:01. > :43:05.friends, that is a higher good than being transparent and whiter than
:43:05. > :43:08.white. Let's move on to the question about the relationship
:43:08. > :43:12.between Government and Whitehall. Because Liam Fox went into the
:43:13. > :43:21.Ministry of Defence, determined to sort out the Ministry of Defence,
:43:21. > :43:30.and in fact t sorted him out? - it sorted him out? Or didn't. I think
:43:30. > :43:34.he sorted himself out. He has lined up a whole series of culprits for
:43:34. > :43:38.this and the one person he hasn't lined up is himself. The Civil
:43:38. > :43:40.Service emerges from the whole thing stronger doesn't it? Ever so
:43:40. > :43:46.slightly. The Government have slightly got themselves to blame
:43:46. > :43:50.for this. The Brown Government did the same thing. When you denigrate
:43:50. > :43:54.political advisors you leave yourself open to this kind of thing.
:43:54. > :43:57.Special advisors are a special thing in Government, they do
:43:57. > :44:01.something quite different from unelected officials. Saying we are
:44:01. > :44:06.part of cleaning up politics and not having special advisors you
:44:06. > :44:12.leave yourself open to this kind of thing. They are slightly more
:44:12. > :44:18.powerful than they were, the civil servants, not especially so.
:44:18. > :44:25.agree. This Cameron idea of limenting the number of SP -
:44:25. > :44:30.limiting the number of SPADs. Special advisors? It has left Nick
:44:30. > :44:38.Clegg unequipped in the Cabinet Office. And Liam Fox needed more
:44:38. > :44:40.people around him. It is not transparent, at least if you have
:44:40. > :44:45.enough political staff in each ministerial office, or Secretary of
:44:45. > :44:48.State, rather, at least you noi who is doing what and everything has to
:44:48. > :44:51.be transparent, and funding issues don't come into it as they have in
:44:51. > :44:57.this story. Part of the problem for the Liberal Democrats is they
:44:57. > :45:03.haven't had their own special advisors in Government. Every
:45:03. > :45:09.department with a Tory Secretary of State. There was a story when one
:45:09. > :45:14.minister called up 9 special advisor saying these stories keep
:45:14. > :45:18.appearing and I don't know where they are coming from, and they came
:45:18. > :45:22.from the advisor. It is a real mistake this, to try to limit the
:45:22. > :45:27.number of special advisor, they do something important and necessary.
:45:27. > :45:30.We should also point out that Adam Werritty was doing something not
:45:30. > :45:33.necessary, which is running, essentially, a fanciful parallel
:45:33. > :45:41.national security policy. There are still lots of questions to be
:45:41. > :45:44.answered about this? Many, many. The Lyons Inquiry will be important.
:45:44. > :45:47.That confusion and unanswered questions makes the issues we were
:45:47. > :45:52.talking about earlier to do with public perceptions worse. The
:45:52. > :45:57.confusion, it looks like such a mess. Fox was the opposite of pen
:45:57. > :46:04.tent in the House today, I thought. I thought - pen tent in the House
:46:04. > :46:08.today, I thought he did himself no favours. Not to be there for the
:46:08. > :46:12.George Young response, and then to give your statement and be so
:46:12. > :46:18.unapologetic. That went down bad with colleagues. There was not a
:46:18. > :46:22.feeling among Tory MPs that he came and gave the speech they wanted.
:46:22. > :46:27.They give the passive, the Ministerial Code has been breached,
:46:27. > :46:31.rather than I broke it. All the people who supported him
:46:31. > :46:35.vociferously last week, it puts them in a difficult position?
:46:35. > :46:40.people who supported him last week were not natural Liam Fox allies,
:46:40. > :46:47.they were people the leadership had asked to do a job. One of the
:46:47. > :46:51.misapprehensions about Liam Fox is that there is a bunch of loyal
:46:52. > :46:55.backbenchers rallying to him. After 2005 and his failure to win the
:46:55. > :46:59.Tory leadership, Liam Fox has spent remarkably little time cultivating
:46:59. > :47:04.backbenches, he doesn't go back to a ready-made group. On the whole
:47:04. > :47:09.Europe question, Liam Fox is nowhere to be seen. It is not like
:47:09. > :47:13.Tory backbenchers will be waiting to see which way he comes down on
:47:13. > :47:16.the EU referendum question, one way or the other. He's not the force
:47:16. > :47:26.people think he is on the backbenches. Gavin will be here
:47:26. > :47:52.
:47:52. > :47:56.A cold one tonight. It means most of us will have a frosty start
:47:56. > :48:00.tomorrow morning. Quite a few of us will have a sunny morning. However,
:48:00. > :48:04.through the day, steadily it will cloud over with outbreaks of rain
:48:04. > :48:08.for Northern Ireland. Most of Scotland by the afternoon. Some of
:48:08. > :48:10.the rain dribbling into northern England. Dry and bright. Most of
:48:10. > :48:15.the Midlands and the south-east having a fine day. After a cold
:48:15. > :48:19.start, by the afternoon, with light winds in the sunshine, not feeling
:48:19. > :48:22.too bad, temperatures 12-13. Clouding over some what for South-
:48:22. > :48:28.West England and steadily through the day t will cloud over across
:48:28. > :48:32.Wales as well. Eye vently some light rain dribble - eventually
:48:32. > :48:38.light rain dribbling into the south west. By lunchtime it will be damp,
:48:38. > :48:43.and the afternoon staying grey with further outbreaks of rain. The same
:48:43. > :48:47.for the west of Scotland. Further east some sunshine but rain late in
:48:47. > :48:49.the day. Friday promises further cloud and rain across Northern
:48:49. > :48:54.Ireland, parts of Scotland, in the south most of England and Wales
:48:54. > :49:04.will have a dry day on Friday, and you will notice the temperatures a
:49:04. > :49:05.
:49:05. > :49:10.little bit higher with sunshine. So Friday it is a bit of a north-south