:00:07. > :00:11.This programme contains scenes some viewers might find disturbing.
:00:11. > :00:15.TRANSLATION: I announce to the world that Muammar Gaddafi has been
:00:15. > :00:19.killed, at the hands of the revolutionaries.
:00:19. > :00:23.He called himself king and kings, look on his works, you mighty and
:00:23. > :00:27.despair. A turning point for Libya, North Africa and the Middle East.
:00:27. > :00:32.They may be celebrating the end of the Gaddafi era, but can the new
:00:32. > :00:35.Libya hold together and flourish as a democracy. We will hear from
:00:35. > :00:38.Senator John McCain, the British Government and the new Libyan
:00:38. > :00:45.Government. We will debate the future and the
:00:45. > :00:48.lessons for dealing with dictators. Plus, Gaddafi, the power of the
:00:48. > :00:51.image, we explore the iconography of dictatorship. A major
:00:51. > :00:56.development in the story we broke last night b a police officer who
:00:56. > :01:06.remained undercover even in court. Now an independent investigation is
:01:06. > :01:07.
:01:07. > :01:09.Good evening, just a few years ago Muammar Gaddafi seemed on top of
:01:09. > :01:14.the world, he had rebuild relationships with the United
:01:14. > :01:19.States, Britain and others, by appearing to co-operate on the war
:01:19. > :01:23.on terror. Buoyant oil prices kept the Libyan economy afloat, and at a
:01:23. > :01:28.gathering of Afghan leaders he was crowned King of Kings. With the
:01:28. > :01:35.Gaddafi era over, the fraction tribunal society he ruled for 42
:01:35. > :01:39.years - fractious tribal society he ruled for 42 years coming to terms
:01:39. > :01:49.with the new way of things. We begin tonight with our diplomatic
:01:49. > :01:50.
:01:50. > :01:55.editor. This evening, people flocked to
:01:55. > :02:01.what was once Green Square in Tripoli, to celebrate the death of
:02:01. > :02:11.a hated dictator. We got you, we got you dead or
:02:11. > :02:11.
:02:11. > :02:16.alive we got you. Libya now is free. Freedom Libya, everybody happy now.
:02:16. > :02:23.The Gaddafi clan cast a long shadow over this nation. Their influence
:02:23. > :02:28.had been embedded over more than 40 years. Now the NTC, the National
:02:28. > :02:33.Transitional Council, can move ahead confidently, with a blueprint
:02:33. > :02:37.for transition to democracy. Until today, the threat of a Gaddafi
:02:37. > :02:44.uprising against the new realities was still real. Now leaders across
:02:44. > :02:49.the Arab world are being told to take note of his undignified end.
:02:49. > :02:53.For the region today's events proved once more that the rule of
:02:53. > :02:58.an iron fist inevitably comes to an end. Across the Arab world,
:02:58. > :03:03.citizens have stood up to claim their rights. Youth are delivering
:03:03. > :03:09.a powerful rebuke to dictatorship. Those leaders who try to deny their
:03:09. > :03:14.dignity will not succeed. At about 8.00am, Libyan time, the forces
:03:14. > :03:17.besieging Sirte began their final assault on District 2, the coastal
:03:17. > :03:23.enclave still held by Gaddafi loyalists. NATO aircraft detected a
:03:23. > :03:27.group of vehicles forming up, a fighter womaner was directed on to
:03:27. > :03:32.the - bomber was directed on to the convoy as it headed off, hitting
:03:32. > :03:37.the vehicles. The transport scattered, and NATO launched a
:03:37. > :03:41.second strike a little while later. Four or five cars in the morning we
:03:41. > :03:49.shot in this side. Gaddafi seems to have survived that
:03:49. > :03:54.air strike, hiding himself in a concrete culvert into the road. All
:03:54. > :04:02.around him gun battles were raging, as the revolutionary forces
:04:02. > :04:06.completed their capture of District 2. At 11.00am, reports began to
:04:06. > :04:12.circulate that Sirte had, indeed, fallen. The last remaining Gaddafi
:04:12. > :04:19.fighters had either given up or been killed. The NTC announced that
:04:19. > :04:25.the former leader's son had been taken, and then, just after 12.00pm,
:04:25. > :04:30.these extraordinary images were recorded, showing Muammar Gaddafi,
:04:30. > :04:33.bloodied, near the culvert where he had taken refuge, and it seems he
:04:33. > :04:38.was still alive. Libya's new Government said he was wounded and
:04:38. > :04:42.on his way to Misrata in an ambulance. But soon other Libyan
:04:42. > :04:49.officials were briefing that the dictator had died. Then these
:04:49. > :04:55.graphic pictures of Gaddafi, apparently dead, came out. Finally,
:04:55. > :05:00.at 4.22, the news from Libya's Prime Minister, confirming the
:05:00. > :05:06.former dictator's death. When we confirm all the evils, plus Gaddafi
:05:06. > :05:13.have now vanished from this beloved country, I think it is for the
:05:13. > :05:18.Libyans to realise that this is a time to start a new Libya w a new
:05:18. > :05:22.economy, with a comu education, with a new health - with a new
:05:22. > :05:29.education, with a new health system, with a new future, united Libya,
:05:29. > :05:32.one people, one future. This photo and reports from the hospital
:05:32. > :05:37.tonight suggest that Gaddafi may have been finished off with a shot
:05:37. > :05:44.to the head after his capture. The NTC is talking about investigating
:05:44. > :05:49.it. His son was also taken alive earlier today, and shown in morgue
:05:49. > :05:54.pictures, dead this evening. Fears have been expressed for
:05:54. > :05:58.months about warlordism or lawlessness gaining ground. All
:05:58. > :06:04.this leads the revolution's foreign backers to give polite but firm
:06:04. > :06:09.guidance about what they expect to happen next.
:06:09. > :06:14.There is work to be done on stablising Libya, on bringing
:06:14. > :06:17.together all the militia that have fought in the revolution under the
:06:17. > :06:21.single control of the transitional Government. That is the phase that
:06:21. > :06:24.will now begin, I think, very soon the formation of that transitional
:06:24. > :06:28.Government. Once the liberation of Libya is declared, and these events
:06:28. > :06:33.bring that much closer, then there is 30 days to form a transitional
:06:33. > :06:36.Government, eight months to have elections.
:06:37. > :06:45.As celebrations continue, NATO suggest the air operation may
:06:45. > :06:48.finish within hours. Their campaign has been instrumental in the NTC's
:06:48. > :06:54.success, overthrowing and eliminating Gaddafi. Now they will
:06:54. > :06:59.be watching in the hope that victory isn't skwaundered. Is it
:06:59. > :07:02.over? - squadered? Is it over? To all intents and purposes there is
:07:02. > :07:08.one or two place where the Gaddafi forces are said to be. It does
:07:08. > :07:12.appear this last holdout in Sirte is the place where pretty much all
:07:12. > :07:16.the key Gaddafi loyalists went after the fall of Tripoli. This is
:07:16. > :07:20.why there has been intense fighting over the last three weeks. We know
:07:21. > :07:25.the former Defence Minster was also killed today, that Moussa Ibrahim,
:07:25. > :07:30.the spokesman who we saw a lot of during the former parts of the
:07:30. > :07:36.crisis, was said to have been taken alive. It is thought that Saif
:07:36. > :07:43.Gaddafi, the senior son, was also killed today. We are not clear
:07:43. > :07:49.about that. But this pattern of them killed or captured and killed
:07:49. > :07:53.does seem to be what's happening. There is a rumour one or two
:07:53. > :07:58.vehicles got away, it is possible one or two key people got away, but
:07:58. > :08:03.this should be it now. Do you get a sense of what kind of Libya the
:08:03. > :08:08.Libyan people want or will settle for? They want democracy that is
:08:08. > :08:12.the refrain heard again and again, and apparently seems to unite
:08:12. > :08:18.people from the educations technocrats, to the militia
:08:18. > :08:22.commander in Tripoli, who has a past on the extremist Islamist wing
:08:22. > :08:26.of politics and direct action. The interesting thing is how can these
:08:26. > :08:31.aspirations be woven together. Will the technocrats who formed the
:08:31. > :08:34.bedrock of the NTC, the lawyers and doctors, often people with a really
:08:34. > :08:38.good knowledge, from foreign education, of how democracy looks,
:08:38. > :08:43.what it looks like and smells like, how will they be woven together
:08:43. > :08:46.with the tribal leaders, will political forces emerge, parties or
:08:46. > :08:51.other mechanisms for binding together these different types of
:08:51. > :08:54.Libyan people and their aspirations. However talented Libyans are, they
:08:54. > :08:58.are talented in all places all across the world, there isn't
:08:58. > :09:02.really a political class? There isn't, and the problem s of course,
:09:02. > :09:07.in many ways the 42 years of Gaddafi atomised society,
:09:07. > :09:11.eliminated or drove abroad, people who showed real initiative and
:09:11. > :09:14.political spark. The question now, I think, really, is whether the
:09:15. > :09:22.technocratic element, they are vital and central to the NTC, will
:09:22. > :09:26.they be just moved aside as the tribal and other more traditional
:09:26. > :09:30.social leaders, Islamist leaders, really bring the vote out, or will
:09:30. > :09:34.they continue to take a role and bring a more westernised flavour to
:09:34. > :09:38.the democracy planned there. Joining us from Washington is the
:09:38. > :09:44.former Republican presidential candidate, Senator John McCain. We
:09:44. > :09:49.saw Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, say "wow" when she heard
:09:49. > :09:53.the news, what did you say when you heard the news? I thought this is a
:09:53. > :09:57.beautiful day for democracy and a chance for freedom. Obviously the
:09:57. > :10:04.hard part is ahead, building democracy and all the institutions
:10:04. > :10:07.that go with it. The country, as it was just pointed out by your
:10:08. > :10:10.previous person that said that the institutions of democracy are
:10:10. > :10:14.difficult, it is a tribal society in many respects, and we have a
:10:14. > :10:18.long way to go. Could I just say, I'm grateful to the British
:10:18. > :10:22.Government and people and the French for leading in this fight,
:10:22. > :10:28.with NATO. They were instrumental in bringing about this victory, and
:10:28. > :10:32.they deserve great credit, I'm grateful. Are you happy at the
:10:32. > :10:35.manner of his death? There are those who wanted him to stand trial
:10:35. > :10:41.t does appear he was alive when he was captured and something happened,
:10:41. > :10:47.we don't know what? Of course I'm not happy about that. I would have
:10:47. > :10:53.liked to have seen him in the dock in the Hague we International
:10:53. > :10:57.Criminal Court. But still, I think it is a good thing that he is now
:10:57. > :11:02.removed from the scene. He has the blood of Americans and British on
:11:02. > :11:05.his hands as well as his brutality towards the Libyan people. Coy just
:11:05. > :11:10.say, the first thing I think - could I just say, the first thing I
:11:10. > :11:13.think we need to do for the Libyans is what the British Government and
:11:13. > :11:17.now the American Government is pledging to do, is care for the
:11:17. > :11:22.wounded. They have some 30,000 wounded, they do not have the
:11:22. > :11:27.capabilities to care for them. I would like to see American planes
:11:27. > :11:31.taking the wounded to the hospital in Germany. I would like to see an
:11:31. > :11:35.American hospital ship in Tripoli in the harbour there. I think we
:11:35. > :11:41.need to really help them with areas of the wounded that they have no
:11:41. > :11:46.capability. I think secondly, we have to try, as your previous
:11:46. > :11:51.speaker mentioned, that we really need to get these militias under
:11:51. > :11:56.one army, National Army, under the TNC. This is a very, very big
:11:56. > :12:00.challenge. We have to do that as quickly as possible. Finally now we
:12:00. > :12:04.have to help them with the building blocks of democracy this is a
:12:04. > :12:07.country that has never known democracy. There is a big task list
:12:07. > :12:12.there. I just wondered for Britain, for the United States, and for
:12:12. > :12:15.France, if there were lessons to be learned here too, given our
:12:15. > :12:22.experiences in Iraq and in Afghanistan, was this a better way
:12:22. > :12:24.to handle things, to let Libyans do it and provide some support? Well,
:12:24. > :12:28.I think they are very different situations, for example, and I know
:12:28. > :12:32.it has been discussed on your programme, what do we do about
:12:32. > :12:38.Syria, which does not lend itself to the kind of military option that
:12:38. > :12:43.was there in Libya. So each situation is very different. But my
:12:43. > :12:46.great regret is we did not use the full weight of American air power,
:12:47. > :12:52.which we could have, which would have shortened the conflict. We
:12:52. > :12:56.could have declared a no-fly zone early on, that would have ended it
:12:56. > :12:59.there. But I am very appreciative that our country and Government
:12:59. > :13:04.stopped Gaddafi outside the gates of Benghazi, when he was about to
:13:04. > :13:08.go in and slaughter people there. I'm proud of the logistical and
:13:08. > :13:11.other supports, significant support the United States provided. But I'm
:13:11. > :13:16.still disappointed we didn't use the full weight of our air power.
:13:16. > :13:21.You said that every situation is different. Syria's very complicated,
:13:21. > :13:26.but do you think there are other dictators who should be less secure
:13:26. > :13:30.in their beds tonight because of what has happened today? I think
:13:30. > :13:37.dictators all over the world, including Bashar al-Assad, maybe
:13:37. > :13:41.even Mr Putin, and maybe some Chinese, maybe all of them, may be
:13:41. > :13:46.a little more nervous, because clearly the people of Libya rose up,
:13:46. > :13:51.we assisted them, and if it hadn't have been for the British, French
:13:51. > :13:55.and NATO air power, they probably wouldn't have succeeded. I think
:13:55. > :13:59.they ought to be nervous, I think it is the spring, not just the Arab
:13:59. > :14:02.Spring. It is the spring, spring time in Russia, that might be not
:14:02. > :14:08.just a place where people vote, but a real democracy do you really
:14:08. > :14:12.think that? I think it is very possible that you will see people
:14:12. > :14:18.protesting a Government that is clearly one that is not democratic
:14:18. > :14:22.in the fashion that I think the Russian people had the hopes and
:14:22. > :14:26.aspirations for, once the Soviet Union collapsed. I cannot predict
:14:26. > :14:31.an armed uprising or anything like that. I could certainly see
:14:31. > :14:36.significant protests in a lot of countries. Just a final thought.
:14:36. > :14:44.Has President Obama handled this quite well. We have seen in the
:14:44. > :14:54.past few months the death of Lyle Lad, Al-Alaki and also Gaddafi?
:14:54. > :14:58.think the administration deserves great credit for laden and others.
:14:58. > :15:02.In Libya I don't think we should have led from behind, but from the
:15:02. > :15:08.front. We could have prevented a lot of wounded and killed that
:15:08. > :15:12.ensued, because of the elongation of the conflict. To use the maximum
:15:12. > :15:19.United States air power, which we have some unique capabilities. I'm
:15:19. > :15:24.proud we did provide a lot of the support and very, very porned help
:15:24. > :15:28.and assistance in this effort - important help and assistance in
:15:28. > :15:31.this effort. We go live to Tripoli now, we hear
:15:32. > :15:37.from a senior member of the National Transitional Council,
:15:37. > :15:47.Mohammed Sayeh. We saw the pictures of Gaddafi wounded but alive. Was
:15:47. > :15:50.
:15:50. > :15:56.he deliberately executed by NTC soldiers? Hello, how are you. First
:15:56. > :16:01.of all, I would like to add one point to what Mr McCain was saying
:16:01. > :16:05.concerning the democracy in Libya, saying Libya never knew a democracy.
:16:05. > :16:11.I would like to tell you and everybody, that there was a very
:16:11. > :16:17.democratic kingdom in Libya before Gaddafi came, which is from 1952 to
:16:17. > :16:24.the days of Gaddafi. In this new democracy? Just the specific point
:16:24. > :16:31.about the way that Gaddafi died, are you concerned that he was
:16:31. > :16:38.executed? No, he was not. He was captured alive, that is true. But
:16:38. > :16:43.they were carrying him, taking him in an ambulance to a hospital in
:16:43. > :16:51.Misrata, where they have crossed a firing zone, there was crossfire
:16:51. > :16:57.between our mortars and Gaddafi killers. So he, a bullet, he was
:16:57. > :17:07.shot from one of the sides of his head, and no-one can tell whether
:17:07. > :17:12.it was from the mortars or from the soldiers. No-one can tell. It does
:17:12. > :17:21.looks a if he has a bullet hole right in the middle of his forehead,
:17:21. > :17:28.I wonder if you regret he won't stand trial? Yes. It would be much
:17:28. > :17:34.better if we took him through justice and at least we give a
:17:34. > :17:44.chance to those people who lost their sons and to the crimes that
:17:44. > :17:45.
:17:45. > :17:49.he did through the history. Thank God, now, the universe is free of
:17:49. > :17:54.Gaddafi. This monster who did lots of bad things, not only to the
:17:54. > :17:59.Libyan people, but to everybody on this universe.
:17:59. > :18:03.Do you, you reminded us that there was a democracy before Gaddafi, as
:18:03. > :18:07.you suggested, how confident are you that the various people who
:18:07. > :18:15.came together to overthrow him, will now work together to build
:18:15. > :18:20.this new Libya that you want? sure, I'm very confident that you
:18:20. > :18:28.will witness the rising of a great nation. The new Libya, the very
:18:28. > :18:36.democratic and civilised nation. At the moment I would like to thank
:18:36. > :18:43.every single American and all the British and French and Turkish and
:18:43. > :18:47.all nations that help us get rid of this nightmare. We can hear the
:18:47. > :18:53.gunfire in the background which I assume is celebration. How do you
:18:53. > :19:00.feel tonight as a Libyan? Well, I tell you, I am very happy. This
:19:00. > :19:09.moment I think the best moment of my life, because I feel now we
:19:09. > :19:14.became free, we became human, we can build up our own nation without
:19:14. > :19:20.that dictator, who destroyed every good thing in our nation.
:19:20. > :19:23.Just a final thought, Senator McCain said you need a lot of help,
:19:23. > :19:28.you need medical help, there are people with terrible wounds, would
:19:28. > :19:33.you welcome that from the United States, from Britain, from other
:19:33. > :19:40.countries? Of course, of course, the United States was a good help
:19:40. > :19:44.to us, there were good allies, and we will never forget what they have
:19:44. > :19:54.done. All the NATO countries and the Arab states who did help us,
:19:54. > :19:58.and the Islamic states, we will never forget their help. The other
:19:58. > :20:03.day Mrs Clinton was here and she promised a big ship hospital will
:20:03. > :20:08.sail from the United States to Tripoli to help our wounded young
:20:08. > :20:13.men to be treated in Tripoli. briefly, if I may, have you got
:20:13. > :20:19.everybody you are looking for? Where is Saif Gaddafi? Do you have
:20:19. > :20:28.all the people you are trying to catch? Sorry, can you repeat that
:20:28. > :20:33.again. Where is Gaddafi's son, Saif Gaddafi? I think he is, if he is
:20:33. > :20:43.not captured yet, he will be captured very soon. He is somewhere
:20:43. > :20:46.
:20:46. > :20:56.in the south of Tripoli, near the mountains of begin wall lid, and I
:20:56. > :21:03.
:21:03. > :21:08.think he - Ben Whalid. What the President was saying, you can run
:21:08. > :21:11.but you can't hide. One of the extraordinary things
:21:11. > :21:16.about Colonel Gaddafi was his ability to survive, at least until
:21:16. > :21:20.today, for years he was associated with international terrorist
:21:20. > :21:24.movements and regarded as a significant enemy by the UK, the
:21:24. > :21:29.United States and other countriesment then he rehabilitated
:21:29. > :21:31.himself in the eyes of some, including Tony Blair, by giving up
:21:31. > :21:39.weapons of mass destruction, and helping in the war on terror. We
:21:39. > :21:43.report on the lessons of dealing with a dictator.
:21:43. > :21:49.Mad, perhaps, bad, certainly. Muammar Gaddafi appeared at times
:21:49. > :21:55.as a buffoon to many in the west and the wider Arab world, in Libya
:21:55. > :21:58.he will be remembered for mainly his cruelty. A dictator, a tyrant,
:21:58. > :22:03.a wretched man, who had no hesitation in killing his people,
:22:03. > :22:10.if need be, should they oppose his rule or criticise him in any way,
:22:10. > :22:15.shape or form. From a distance you look at him as a clown, but when
:22:15. > :22:19.you are living underneath his rule, it is not funny any more.
:22:19. > :22:25.The dashing young officer who overthrew the monarchy in 1969, in
:22:25. > :22:30.the name of Arab nationalism, claimed later to have invented the
:22:30. > :22:35.purest form of democracy, state of the masses. Guided by his own
:22:35. > :22:39.idiosyncratic musings, collected in the Green Book, in practice, it was
:22:39. > :22:44.an old-fashioned dictatorship. of the strange things to me at
:22:44. > :22:47.first was all the Libyans I met would tell me he had been on the
:22:47. > :22:51.telephone to them the night before, I thought they were pretending and
:22:51. > :22:54.showing O eventually I came to the conclusion that he really did
:22:54. > :23:00.intervene at every level, all the time, in the detailed running of
:23:00. > :23:04.the country. The revolt that eventually
:23:04. > :23:10.overthrew him this year was sparked by protests by the families of
:23:10. > :23:15.victims of a massacre in this jail. Where about 1200 inmates were
:23:15. > :23:21.killed in 1996. But Gaddafi also helped spread
:23:21. > :23:27.death and destruction abroad. He armed the IRA with Semtex explosive
:23:28. > :23:33.to make their bombs. Boasting it was sent to make the British pay
:23:33. > :23:38.the price for their bad deeds. existence of Britain in Northern
:23:38. > :23:46.Ireland is in a sense a colonisation, we will fight to get
:23:46. > :23:50.rid of that. It is a just fight and we support it. In 1984, a shot from
:23:51. > :23:54.inside the Libyan embassy in London, aimed at protestors jut side,
:23:54. > :23:59.killed a British policewoman, Yvonne Fletcher. Five years later,
:23:59. > :24:04.Libya was responsible for the blowing up of Pan Am flight 103
:24:04. > :24:08.over Lockerbie, killing 270. By then Libya had become an
:24:08. > :24:12.international pariah. Years of isolation only ended after
:24:12. > :24:18.Gaddafi's regime admitted its role in the bombing and paid
:24:18. > :24:23.compensation to the victims. It was Tony Blair's visit to the colonel's
:24:23. > :24:26.desert tent in 2004, after Libya had given up its weapons of mass
:24:26. > :24:32.destruction programme, that sealed his readmission to the
:24:32. > :24:38.international community. Some thought it was an embrace too far.
:24:38. > :24:43.The sight of Tony Blair hugging Gaddafi was sickening. Even
:24:43. > :24:47.thinking back at it I find it repulsive. This is a man who kills
:24:47. > :24:51.people, who has no problem in killing people who has a history of
:24:51. > :24:55.killing people, and all of a sudden, we're hugging him. It was
:24:56. > :25:01.disgusting, it was vile. With the memory of past crimes, still fresh
:25:01. > :25:06.in many minds, was it wrong to try to make a new start? Did Britain
:25:06. > :25:09.make an historic mistake in renewing ties with Gaddafi's regime,
:25:09. > :25:12.a decade-and-a-half after Yvonne Fletcher's murder? Renewing
:25:12. > :25:18.relations that would gradually become closer and closer, until
:25:18. > :25:22.this year, the UK played a major part in helping rebels to overthrow
:25:22. > :25:28.him. Is it perhaps the same mistake we are making again with some of
:25:28. > :25:31.the Middle East's remaining strongmen. We maintain relations
:25:31. > :25:35.with Sudan, whose President is wanted by the International
:25:35. > :25:41.Criminal Court, for crimes against humanity. We have close and
:25:41. > :25:46.friendly ties with King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, whose absolute
:25:46. > :25:52.monarchy suppresses all dissent. Yemen's dictator has been supported
:25:52. > :25:55.by the west as a butress against Islamist militancy. And Syria's
:25:55. > :25:59.Bashar al-Assad, was given the benefit of the doubt for a long
:25:59. > :26:05.time this year, as evidence mounted of the state's killing of
:26:05. > :26:08.protestors. We can't turn a blind eye. These Governments will, in
:26:08. > :26:12.time, fall, as Gaddafi fell today, other tyrants will also fall, and
:26:12. > :26:14.then we have to deal with the people of that country. If we
:26:14. > :26:19.haven't stood by their side in their hour of need, they shall
:26:19. > :26:23.remember this. But that's not a recipe for
:26:23. > :26:27.practical diplomacy. When you say we made a mistake with Gaddafi, did
:26:27. > :26:31.we? I think we made a very bad situation slightly better, or
:26:31. > :26:34.slightly less bad. I don't think we did make a mistake, as a matter of
:26:34. > :26:38.fact. There are certain policies one can worry about, but it doesn't
:26:38. > :26:44.mean we shouldn't be working with regime, even when they are bad
:26:44. > :26:49.regimes. Because, as I said before, the country continues to exist.
:26:49. > :26:53.The man who ran Libya for more than 41 years no more. His demise,
:26:53. > :26:58.thanks in part to western efforts. But he's certainly not the last of
:26:58. > :27:01.his kind that we will have to do business with.
:27:01. > :27:05.Earlier I spoke to the International Development Secretary,
:27:05. > :27:09.Andrew Mitchell. Do you think that there is a lesson
:27:09. > :27:15.here for British Governments in how to deal with dictators, that you
:27:15. > :27:18.have to sup with a very long spoon? You do, but you also have to engage
:27:19. > :27:24.with them on human rights issues and national interest issues. The
:27:24. > :27:28.lesson from what has happened in Libya is that a long spoon is right.
:27:28. > :27:31.Do you think Tony Blair got too close, many people have said he was
:27:31. > :27:35.right to try to bring him back into the fold because of weapons of mass
:27:35. > :27:39.destruction, and other things, but he may have got too close to him?
:27:39. > :27:44.He was right to try that. But the evidence is clearly he was much too
:27:44. > :27:49.close towards the end of his time. Does that mean that there are
:27:50. > :27:53.lessons then for how we should deal with other dictators, or semi-
:27:53. > :27:57.dictators in other parts of the world, Sudan, Syria, Yemen and so
:27:57. > :28:01.on, that we should think very carefully about how we approach
:28:01. > :28:06.them? The analogy with Syria, in this particular case, is not good
:28:06. > :28:10.one, there was unanimity of view that Gaddafi had to be stopped from
:28:10. > :28:14.conducting a bloody massacre in Benghazi. There are massacres in
:28:15. > :28:19.Syria, of course? There are, but there was complete agreement across
:28:19. > :28:22.the Arab world that Gaddafi's time was up. Where as I think there is
:28:22. > :28:25.disagreement between the different parts of the Arab world over Syria.
:28:25. > :28:31.Of course, for a long time there has been disagreement on the
:28:31. > :28:36.Security Council in New York as well. They are not analogyies, I
:28:36. > :28:42.think. This is a huge moment for the people of Libya and for the NTC.
:28:42. > :28:46.The glue that kept the NTC together so far has been hatred of Gaddafi,
:28:46. > :28:49.do you worry that because that is gone, although there is hope for
:28:49. > :28:53.the future, it might not translate into the democratic state you would
:28:53. > :28:57.like to see? Part of the glue that kept the NTC together was the act
:28:57. > :29:02.that they were truly national, and they were transitional, as well as
:29:02. > :29:06.having a common enemy in Gaddafi and a desire to get their country
:29:06. > :29:09.back again. But I think everything I saw when I visited the NTC in
:29:10. > :29:14.Benghazi early on in the conflict, suggests they are absolutely
:29:14. > :29:18.determined to offer a new start to the people of Libya, to have a
:29:18. > :29:22.genuine process leading to elections in about eight months
:29:22. > :29:26.time, and to rebuild their country, and from what I saw in the work we
:29:26. > :29:30.were doing, for example, on stablisation, and humanitarian
:29:30. > :29:34.relief, there is both a capacity and a real ability and wish to do
:29:34. > :29:37.this. You made a distinction and said Syria is a very different case,
:29:37. > :29:40.I wondered if there was at least a model for British foreign policy in
:29:40. > :29:45.the future. We have seen what happened in Iraq and Afghanistan,
:29:45. > :29:48.this was a very different kind of conflict. No boots on the ground,
:29:48. > :29:53.do you think that is something that future British Governments should
:29:53. > :29:58.think about? I think all the situations are different. But I
:29:58. > :30:02.think in Libya, our intervention was right, it was necessary, it was
:30:02. > :30:06.legal, it was all done very carefully, I think that the
:30:06. > :30:11.leadership provided by the Prime Minister and also by President
:30:11. > :30:15.Sarkozy will go down, long after this is all over, as absolutely
:30:15. > :30:18.critical in saving the lives of thousands of people, who would
:30:18. > :30:22.otherwise have been massacred. One issue that the Prime Minister
:30:22. > :30:26.raised today was Lockerbie, he mentioned the victims of Lockerbie
:30:26. > :30:30.and the IRA and so on l we ever get to the truth of what happened at
:30:30. > :30:33.Lockerbie, is there a lot more to come out, and if so, will you
:30:33. > :30:36.publish it? I hope we get to the truth. The Prime Minister was clear
:30:36. > :30:42.that all the indications from Tripoli, from the new regime, are
:30:42. > :30:45.that they want to co-operate and they want to help. Not least on PC
:30:45. > :30:50.Yvonne Fletcher, whose vile murder on the streets of London has still
:30:50. > :30:54.not properly been resolved. I think on all these things there is huge
:30:54. > :30:58.good will towards Britain for the work we have done. And quite clear
:30:58. > :31:04.support for trying to bring these matters to a proper conclusion.
:31:04. > :31:07.you surprised that Al-Megrahi has outlived dad gad? I am - Gaddafi? I
:31:07. > :31:15.am surprised, given what we were told bit last Government and the
:31:15. > :31:18.Scottish Executive. But I think his life is drawing to a close.
:31:18. > :31:22.For some sense of the significance of today's events and where it
:31:22. > :31:27.leaves the Arab Spring as we go into autumn. I'm joined by the
:31:27. > :31:31.Conservative MP, Rory Stewart and Nablia Ramdani, and David Gordon,
:31:31. > :31:35.formally of the US State Department. On that point, your sense of the
:31:35. > :31:41.moment in history, how big a deal is this, do you think? I think it
:31:41. > :31:46.is quite a big deal. Obviously it is a very big deal for Libya. I'm
:31:46. > :31:51.actually of the view that it's probably a good thing for Libya
:31:51. > :31:56.that Gaddafi is dead and that there is not a trial. I actually think
:31:56. > :32:02.that trials, that trial of Saddam Hussein, the trial of Mubarak,
:32:02. > :32:08.actually don't help to bring the country together. I think that the
:32:08. > :32:12.death of Gaddafi, coincident with the fall of Sirte, gives the
:32:12. > :32:17.potential to have a dramatic end to the conflict period here, and move
:32:17. > :32:24.on to what will be a very challenging stage, but one that
:32:24. > :32:28.holds a lot of promise, that of rebuilding Libya and creating a new
:32:28. > :32:32.regime here, and a new, more democratic dispensation. For the
:32:32. > :32:35.rest of the region. I just want to bring in Nablia Ramdani on that
:32:35. > :32:38.point. Do you regret there is not going to be a trial, are you
:32:38. > :32:42.worried about the circumstances of his death, do you think people will
:32:43. > :32:50.care all that much now he's gone? Ideally you clearly want to see
:32:50. > :32:54.justice, the rule of law and due process apply to anyone, including
:32:54. > :33:00.a murderous tyrant like Gaddafi. I have to say that his death took
:33:00. > :33:04.place in the context of a savage civil war, I'm afraid it was almost
:33:04. > :33:08.inevitable he would end up that way. Given the amount of hatred that he
:33:09. > :33:16.managed to build up throughout the decades where he ruled with an iron
:33:16. > :33:23.fist. You know, he, at the end of the day, created a very barbaric
:33:23. > :33:27.society. It is that very barbaric society that killed him. You were
:33:27. > :33:30.listening to Senator John McCain, he said dictators all around the
:33:30. > :33:33.world, including China and Russia, could pay attention to this,
:33:33. > :33:38.because they will be overthrown. What do you make of that, did he
:33:38. > :33:43.overstep it or does he have a point? I disagree, it is very
:33:43. > :33:47.dangerous to try to draw the connections. I don't think Putin or
:33:47. > :33:51.China will sleep uneasy in their beds because of this. I think it is
:33:51. > :33:56.a Middle East and North African phenomenon, I think one of the
:33:56. > :34:00.dangers is thinking, as John McCain seemed to apply, that we have found
:34:00. > :34:03.a universal model, and there is a new spring for the world. I think
:34:03. > :34:08.that is dangerous talk. I don't know if you heard that. A new
:34:08. > :34:14.spring for the world, what do you make of that, is he right or wrong?
:34:14. > :34:18.I basically agree with Rory. I mean, I think that this is very
:34:18. > :34:27.significant in the region. But the significance I would put primarily
:34:27. > :34:33.in two states. I think that Syria is now at considerable risk of and
:34:33. > :34:39.President Assad is at considerable risk of seeing his regime, I think,
:34:39. > :34:46.begin to unravel, some what more quickly. I think behind that,
:34:46. > :34:52.especially if Assad goes, then the regime in Iran could really see, I
:34:52. > :34:58.think, an uptake in political opposition. I think Rory is right.
:34:58. > :35:03.The notion that this spreads to China, to Russia is just very far
:35:04. > :35:08.fetched at this point. One of the things that we have been keeling
:35:08. > :35:11.with all night is lessons for whom? Including lessons for Britain,
:35:11. > :35:15.France and the United States, intervention what works and what
:35:15. > :35:19.doesn't. How do you think this has been seen through the Arab world.
:35:20. > :35:26.There was a significant consensus in the Arab League that something
:35:26. > :35:32.should be done to protect Benghazi? The victory of British and French
:35:32. > :35:36.foreign policy will perhaps buoy up those Governments to think of their
:35:36. > :35:40.foreign policy in a new way. Meaning that they will perhaps
:35:40. > :35:44.value military interventions in the future, just like Tony Blair did
:35:44. > :35:48.after his success in Kosovo, he valued military action elsewhere,
:35:48. > :35:53.he pursued it in Sierra Leone, Afghanistan and indeed finally in
:35:53. > :35:57.Iraq. It might be that western Governments, including Britain,
:35:57. > :36:02.might feel brave enough to take on new countries. Do you think that is
:36:02. > :36:05.a good thing. I'm sure Rory will disagree with this, I know his
:36:05. > :36:12.views. We know about Iran, the possibility of more protests in
:36:12. > :36:17.Iran, we know what a mess Syria is in. We don't see a western appetite
:36:17. > :36:22.to get involved in the same way they did in Libya? For western
:36:22. > :36:26.powers Libya was a safer bet. It doesn't have the regional
:36:26. > :36:30.implication that Syria has. Gaddafi was a friendless dictator, he
:36:30. > :36:35.doesn't have the regional, powerful regional allies that Syria has,
:36:35. > :36:38.that can pose a threat to the world and the region. And a final point,
:36:38. > :36:43.dare I say, Libya offers very attractive prospects in terms of
:36:43. > :36:48.oil and natural gas. Which will make the military adventures abs
:36:48. > :36:53.loutly worthwhile. I think the - Absolutely worthwhile. I think the
:36:53. > :36:56.other point is Libya had regional support and UN support. Although it
:36:56. > :37:01.doesn't go to the moral rights and wrongs, it is crucial for whether
:37:01. > :37:05.we can do these things. If you Co Go to a country like Syria, where
:37:05. > :37:10.the regional support is flakey and the international support isn't
:37:10. > :37:15.there. What did we learn, liberal interventionism, has that peaked or
:37:15. > :37:18.is that it? I hope what we have learned is every condition is
:37:18. > :37:22.different. No boots on the ground, strong regional support, strong UN
:37:22. > :37:27.support, you have a hope. You have to be very patient. We had an
:37:27. > :37:30.almost stalemate for six months. You have to hold your nerve. I
:37:30. > :37:34.completely disagree with the McCain idea that we should have gone in
:37:34. > :37:38.hard from the beginning, showing off the full extent of American air
:37:38. > :37:42.power. What I thought when I was in Tripoli this worked best because
:37:42. > :37:45.Libyans felt it was their thing. They felt it was like Egypt or
:37:45. > :37:50.Tunisia, they owned it, that is why we saw people celebrate in the
:37:50. > :37:53.square the way we never did in Baghdad or Kabul. President Obama
:37:53. > :37:57.welcomed this, when you travelled around the United States, do you
:37:57. > :38:02.not get a sense that Americans don't want to do abroad, they have
:38:02. > :38:10.had enough and want to concentrate at home? I think that's very much
:38:10. > :38:13.the case. I think that, frankly there are very few broadly
:38:13. > :38:21.generalisable lessons from Libya, particularly on the military side.
:38:21. > :38:24.I think you had the, ordinary circumstance here of Colonel
:38:24. > :38:28.Gaddafi having totally unif you areating all of the other countries
:38:28. > :38:31.in the region, to the point where the Arab League requested a
:38:31. > :38:35.military intervention by NATO. That's not going to happen anywhere
:38:35. > :38:41.else. It will won't happen in Syria. But it is literally we are never
:38:41. > :38:45.going to see that again. I think the notion that this is going to
:38:45. > :38:49.lead to a greater sympathy and a greater orientation towards
:38:49. > :38:53.military instruments to do this kind of thing, by western powers,
:38:53. > :39:00.is really not the case. In the United States, I think the
:39:00. > :39:07.interesting thing here is, as you look at the very, very Conservative,
:39:07. > :39:12.Republican presidential as pier rants, none of them are - aspirants,
:39:12. > :39:17.none of them is calling for anything else. We have killed Bin
:39:17. > :39:23.Laden and seen the enormous difficulties of co-operation with
:39:23. > :39:29.Pakistan. I think that the US is leading towards a much lower
:39:29. > :39:34.military footprint abroad, as we head into a period where we work
:39:34. > :39:38.towards reenergising things at home. More on Colonel Gaddafi in a moment.
:39:38. > :39:42.First some news about Newsnight next week. The world's population
:39:42. > :39:45.looks set to pass the seven billion mark. In a series of films on food
:39:45. > :39:50.security, we will ask how do we continue to Feed The World when
:39:50. > :39:54.there are so many people in it. Parts of the planet a growing
:39:54. > :40:00.middle-class consumes more resource, while in poorer regions more people
:40:00. > :40:06.are starving than before. We have a week of special reports beginning
:40:06. > :40:11.in Africa. In an age of food crisis we report from Africa, on the
:40:11. > :40:14.promise of a cultural revolution. Africa will be the net exporter of
:40:15. > :40:19.food. We are not working anywhere, we are suffering. We will
:40:19. > :40:25.investigate the challenge faced by some of the world's poorest people,
:40:25. > :40:29.as famine grips vast swathes of the continent.
:40:29. > :40:35.Our first report comes from Zambia, where a revolution is taking place
:40:35. > :40:39.on the land. Can these become fields of plenty?
:40:39. > :40:41.The Metropolitan Police has called in the Independent Police
:40:41. > :40:45.Complaints Commisssion after our story last night exposed the work
:40:45. > :40:49.of an undercover police officer who gave false information under oath,
:40:49. > :40:53.in a criminal trial. He had infiltrated a Campaign Group in a
:40:53. > :40:57.case lawyers say raises questions about the integrity of the criminal
:40:57. > :41:00.justice system. Richard Watson, who broke the story,
:41:00. > :41:04.is here. The Met Police issued a statement
:41:04. > :41:11.tonight, they have given themselves one degree of freedom, saying they
:41:11. > :41:14.have contacked the IPCC with a view - contacted the IPCC with a view to
:41:14. > :41:18.referral. This is the allegations we raised last night along with the
:41:18. > :41:27.Guardian. Crucially, central to this issue is how many other cases
:41:27. > :41:29.are there, it is interesting they used the phrase of historic covert
:41:29. > :41:32.police operations, crucial is the central relationship between
:41:32. > :41:36.Boyling policy and the Metropolitan Police handlers. I have been trying
:41:36. > :41:39.to investigate the matters today. Our story about undercover cop, Jim
:41:39. > :41:43.Boyling, is toxic for the Metropolitan Police. Especially if
:41:43. > :41:47.it turns out that senior officers authorised him to give false
:41:47. > :41:51.evidence in court, to avoid his cover being blown. If someone is
:41:51. > :41:55.given a false name, under oath, in court, in my book it is perjury.
:41:55. > :42:02.Whether you are a police officer, a politician, a journalist or an
:42:02. > :42:06.ordinary member of the public. the ends justify the means. Clearly
:42:06. > :42:11.in this recent case and other publicised cases, I would most
:42:11. > :42:15.definitely say they do not. Beginning in 1995, Jim Boyling used
:42:15. > :42:19.an alias while taking part in protests like this, organised by
:42:19. > :42:22.the group, Reclaim The Streets. Two years later he maintained his new
:42:22. > :42:28.identity while appearing in court for disorderly behaviour, at a
:42:28. > :42:33.protest in the offices of London Transport. In 1999, Boyling began a
:42:33. > :42:35.relationship with a fellow activist he went on to marry. This year Her
:42:35. > :42:40.Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary began an investigation
:42:40. > :42:46.into undercover policing, and its report has been delayed as a result
:42:46. > :42:50.of Newsnight's revelations. Is it really credible that Jim Boyling
:42:50. > :42:54.was acting on his own, or whether some systems within the
:42:54. > :42:58.Metropolitan Police authorised his behaviour to take part in the
:42:58. > :43:03.criminal justice system, right up until the trial where he gave false
:43:03. > :43:06.evidence. Maintaining his cover story, he attended pretrial
:43:06. > :43:10.meetings with other activist friends charged with public order
:43:10. > :43:13.offences. His solicitor told us yesterday this was a perversion of
:43:13. > :43:16.the legal process, surely someone at the Met must have known what was
:43:17. > :43:22.going on. There are many questions to be asked about those cover
:43:22. > :43:25.officers, what did they do. You know a cover officer should be in
:43:25. > :43:31.daily contact with his undercover operative. The management should
:43:31. > :43:35.want to get in front of that undercover operative each week and
:43:35. > :43:38.look into his eyes. If his cover officers did know, did they tell
:43:38. > :43:42.senior leaders at the Met. The police are facing tough questions
:43:42. > :43:45.on this too. I have seen documents which show
:43:45. > :43:48.that the Metropolitan Police were holding an internal investigation
:43:48. > :43:51.into Jim Boyling, and it started in January this year. It is still
:43:51. > :43:54.active, it has been going on for ten months. The key question is
:43:54. > :43:58.whether that investigation found evidence that Jim Boyling was using
:43:58. > :44:01.his cover name, Jim Sutton, in a criminal trial. If they did find
:44:01. > :44:05.that evidence, why they did not share it with the police
:44:05. > :44:11.inspectorate. The question of proportionality is
:44:11. > :44:14.central to the HMIC report, which was due to be released today. Is it
:44:14. > :44:17.appropriate to use undercover officers to penetrate environmental
:44:17. > :44:24.movements. Currently the police are left to make these judgments
:44:24. > :44:27.themselves. Their decisions are now checked internally and externally
:44:27. > :44:30.retrospectively. Privacy protection in Britain has grown up in an ad
:44:30. > :44:34.hoc and piecemeal way. You need a magistrates warrant before you can
:44:34. > :44:40.search someone's home or office. You need a politician's warrant
:44:40. > :44:45.before you can tap their phone. But when you are putting people under
:44:45. > :44:49.cover, pretending to be their friend, comrade or colleague, the
:44:49. > :44:53.police can basically sign that off in house. That is not good enough
:44:53. > :44:57.to establish trust in modern Britain. These are important policy
:44:57. > :44:59.issues which will be considered when the delayed report into
:44:59. > :45:05.undercover policing is published. For now there are more pressing
:45:05. > :45:07.matters for the Met, such as the prospect of an IPCC investigation,
:45:07. > :45:12.and criminal proceedings against some of its own.
:45:12. > :45:15.I have learned a little bit more p the shenanigans between the
:45:15. > :45:21.Metropolitan Police and Her Majesty's Inspectorate of
:45:21. > :45:25.Constabulary today. The crucial point is what the Met told the HMIC.
:45:25. > :45:28.My understanding is they didn't tell them about the internal
:45:28. > :45:32.investigation into Jim Boyling. That will be one of the big
:45:32. > :45:37.questions HMIC and others will want to get to the bottom of.
:45:37. > :45:40.More now on the main story, over the past 42 years, Colonel Gaddafi
:45:40. > :45:44.has been one of the most striking world figures, along with Fidel
:45:44. > :45:49.Castro, Yasser Arafat and others. His face and bizarre style made him
:45:49. > :45:59.a peculiar type of political eye kofpblt we report on the icon oing
:45:59. > :46:05.
:46:05. > :46:08.- icon. We report on the The colonel, mysteriously he never
:46:08. > :46:12.promoted himself above colonel, was a bogeyman to the international
:46:12. > :46:15.community, but love him or hate him, how long do you need for that one,
:46:15. > :46:25.you certainly couldn't ignore him. He was a mixture of the terrible
:46:25. > :46:29.
:46:29. > :46:33.and the eye-popping, a tyrant, wardrobed by Lady Gaga.
:46:33. > :46:38.The desert can be an unforgiving environment for male grooming, it
:46:38. > :46:43.take as particular stripe of man to carry off a whole look. Think of
:46:43. > :46:49.Lawrence of Saudo Arabia, the classic French foreign legionnaire.
:46:49. > :46:56.There was General Rommell, in his own way, and more recently, Colonel
:46:56. > :47:02.Gaddafi. Where he was completely over the top, hugely distinguished,
:47:02. > :47:09.was in his own get-ups. His own get-ups were special, were madder
:47:09. > :47:19.than mad. It was sort of a combination of Liberace, and
:47:19. > :47:22.
:47:22. > :47:28.Michael Jackson and a whole lot of crazy cartoon figures.
:47:28. > :47:31.The older he got, the crazer those get-ups looked, as if he had
:47:31. > :47:41.watched Hollywood films or maybe his dressers had watched Hollywood
:47:41. > :47:43.
:47:43. > :47:49.films. There is one with him as a fur hat and trapper leather jacket.
:47:49. > :47:56.It wasn't only the outfits that occasion described, it was said he
:47:56. > :48:01.had a tendency to break wind in front of the BBC's world affairs
:48:01. > :48:05.reporter. It was reported he trusted his personal safety to
:48:06. > :48:10.female body guards. Some say it is evidence of enlightened attitudes
:48:10. > :48:15.in Gaddafi's promotion of women. His women was something that stemed
:48:15. > :48:20.from his only personal need and desire to stand out and be unique
:48:20. > :48:23.among other Arab leaders. He viewed himself as somebody who had
:48:23. > :48:30.liberated himself from the backwardness of the east. Through
:48:30. > :48:40.that he wanted to show that he was the new empowerer of women, without
:48:40. > :48:42.
:48:42. > :48:47.necessarily resorting to modern, western feminism. The The point
:48:47. > :48:51.about dictator style is biging yourself up. You may start as a man,
:48:51. > :48:57.but you want to end up as a God. Think French, because the French
:48:57. > :49:04.style of furniture and decoration is the style of plutocrats and
:49:04. > :49:08.despots for the last 150 years. Others don't understand it, they
:49:08. > :49:15.think this stuff is trivial. As Oscar Wilde said, only a fool
:49:15. > :49:19.doesn't judge by appearances. The extraordinary appearance of, say, a
:49:19. > :49:27.dictator's interior, tells you that here is paranoia and insecurity on
:49:28. > :49:31.a massive scale. The wish to intimidate and impress en massive
:49:31. > :49:35.scale, and there is danger and dodginess in that.
:49:35. > :49:42.But at one time, at least, there was method in the madness, a point
:49:42. > :49:50.to all that showmanship. It was marking out Gaddafi's Libya as
:49:50. > :49:57.different, a Bedouin revolution. At times it seemed as if there was
:49:57. > :50:03.a whole caravan of Gaddafi's, each one more exoticically gashed than
:50:03. > :50:08.the last. Even after - garbed than the last. Even after his demise,
:50:08. > :50:11.the deconstruction may go on for some time yet. No time for the
:50:11. > :50:21.papers, that is all from Newsnight tonight, Emily is back tomorrow at
:50:21. > :50:42.
:50:42. > :50:46.the same time. Hello there. Much more cloud across
:50:46. > :50:49.the country tonight, compared to last night. Which means it won't be
:50:49. > :50:53.anything like as cold first thing in the morning. It does make for a
:50:53. > :50:56.rather grey start, however. It should brighten up across central
:50:56. > :51:00.and eastern areas in particular. Some sunshine. Light rain is
:51:00. > :51:03.possible across the far north of England. For most of England and
:51:03. > :51:07.Wales it should be a dry day. Eventually some sunshine coming
:51:07. > :51:14.through. That will lift the temperatures. Higher than
:51:14. > :51:17.Thursday's, peaking in the low to mid-teens. The moisture is coming
:51:17. > :51:20.off the Atlantic. Parts of South- West England and west Wales will
:51:20. > :51:27.stay grey with that cloud throughout the day. To the northern
:51:27. > :51:30.and eastern hills we may get breaks in the cloud and a bit of sunshine.
:51:30. > :51:35.Cloudy in Northern Ireland, some cloud drifting to the north. A
:51:35. > :51:39.soingyo day for parts of western and central Scotland. Along the
:51:39. > :51:43.Moray Frith, things could brighten up, that could lift the
:51:43. > :51:50.temperatures. Saturday will see further rain in western Scotland
:51:50. > :51:54.and Northern Ireland. Across Saturday a dry day. The breeze
:51:54. > :51:57.picking up. It might not feel as warm as the temperatures would
:51:57. > :52:01.suggest. The rain for western Scotland on Saturday, it may edge