0:00:01 > 0:00:06With 24 hours to save the euro, so they say, and therefore the banks
0:00:06 > 0:00:11and therefore the world economy, Europe's fate rests in the hands of
0:00:11 > 0:00:15a former cruise ship crooner. Even if Silvio Berlusconi can sell at
0:00:15 > 0:00:20least some austerity to a hostile coalition and public, can he
0:00:20 > 0:00:22convince the Germans he won't soon hit them for a trillion euro
0:00:22 > 0:00:25bailout? Those close to the talks in
0:00:25 > 0:00:31Brussels have told me a serious deal tomorrow is now impossible,
0:00:31 > 0:00:35and the differences remain immense. Why is it that Europe seems to
0:00:35 > 0:00:39ineffectual with the well being of so many at stake. With a heavy
0:00:39 > 0:00:44heart I will vote for the motion, and I will take the consequences.
0:00:44 > 0:00:48No hard feelings says the Prime Minister, oh and by the way, you're
0:00:48 > 0:00:53sacked, have relations between David Cameron and his eurorebels
0:00:53 > 0:00:56been permanently soured. Is the real reason this Tory MP feels so
0:00:56 > 0:01:02sore about a euroreferendum, that the shots in Government are being
0:01:02 > 0:01:09called by this man's friends and colleagues.
0:01:09 > 0:01:16As East Africa's tribe succumb to yet another famine, is it lack and
0:01:16 > 0:01:22rainfall for lack of ethics that are the cause. God makes famine but
0:01:22 > 0:01:32we stole from ourselves and we are starving as a result. Also tonight.
0:01:32 > 0:01:36
0:01:36 > 0:01:40The film director David CCronenberg, on film, fear and fraud. Tomorrow
0:01:40 > 0:01:44was supposed to be the absolute deadline for a deal to save the
0:01:44 > 0:01:50euro, tomorrow's expected meeting for European finance ministers was
0:01:50 > 0:01:55cancelled today, leaving hopes of that deal something of a shambles,
0:01:55 > 0:01:59the heads of Government will still get together, even though tomorrow
0:01:59 > 0:02:03doesn't seem to capture what has seized some of the participants, in
0:02:03 > 0:02:09a crisis that could bring the dreams of the world's political
0:02:09 > 0:02:13class come crashing down. There is still plent of talks to bail out
0:02:13 > 0:02:19banks, and murderings of what that great statesman, Silvio Berlusconi,
0:02:19 > 0:02:22may or may not do to show his Government's grasp of reality.
0:02:22 > 0:02:25That cancellation of the finance ministers' meeting was at first
0:02:25 > 0:02:29briefed as a good thing. Because we were so close to a deal that they
0:02:29 > 0:02:35didn't need to meet. It turns out that was completely rubbish. They
0:02:35 > 0:02:44are not close to a deal. British Government sources believe there
0:02:44 > 0:02:48are too major sticking points. One the shape of the ES Severs, and
0:02:48 > 0:02:53secondly they are nowhere near negotiating about Greece, with the
0:02:53 > 0:02:56banks seeing 60% of their investment written out. The banks
0:02:56 > 0:03:04are saying Government holds this debt when are Governments going to
0:03:04 > 0:03:12take the pain. These are serious issues and we are told to wait.
0:03:12 > 0:03:16This is incredible, the entire European project, it could turn the
0:03:16 > 0:03:21whole world economy and they can't decide to do something? It is only
0:03:21 > 0:03:26over the weekend they got serious about figures and percentages. If
0:03:26 > 0:03:30you step back from all the technical jargon, they are trying
0:03:30 > 0:03:34to take a huge chunk of European capitalism out of the capitalist
0:03:34 > 0:03:37system. They are trying to say a bunch of banks and five out of 17
0:03:37 > 0:03:43countries no longer have their debt valued by the global market. It
0:03:43 > 0:03:47will all be protected within effectively a statised system. Once
0:03:47 > 0:03:50you put it that way, they will say I'm centre right politician and you
0:03:50 > 0:04:00are a Conservative, how did we end up doing this. The drama about to
0:04:00 > 0:04:03play out in Brussels. It will be more than a five-act one let me
0:04:03 > 0:04:08tell you. It is like an action movie, where all the plot lines
0:04:08 > 0:04:11come together in the last five, frantic minutes. There are panicked
0:04:11 > 0:04:16phone calls, knife-edge decisions, and nobody knows what's happening.
0:04:16 > 0:04:21But we do know where it is supposed to end, Brussels, this time
0:04:21 > 0:04:24tomorrow night. The deal they are trying to do is clear, it is to
0:04:24 > 0:04:28take tax-payers' money from northern Europe, and use it to bail
0:04:28 > 0:04:32out southern Europe, to shore up the banks, and to prevent Greece
0:04:32 > 0:04:36collapsing into social chaos. But the political price for this is
0:04:36 > 0:04:42immense. The leaders are only just confronting that.
0:04:42 > 0:04:46Under the deal they are working for, 60% of Greek detect, held by banks
0:04:46 > 0:04:52and - debt, held by banks and pension funds will be written off.
0:04:53 > 0:04:59The banking sector will take a hit of at least 120 billion euros. To
0:04:59 > 0:05:05prevent a wider crisis, 108 billion will be pumped into Europe's banks,
0:05:05 > 0:05:14from private investors and an EU bailout funds and others. A new
0:05:14 > 0:05:18fund, one trillion euro, will be brought in to take Portugal,
0:05:18 > 0:05:22Ireland, Greece and Italy out of the bond market for years. There is
0:05:22 > 0:05:26too much debt in the eurozone, too much public and private debt.
0:05:26 > 0:05:31Ultimately banks will have to go to the wall and fail, and Governments
0:05:31 > 0:05:35will have to write down debt, that is the only solution. This is the
0:05:35 > 0:05:41specter haunting tomorrow's summits, Communists fighting anarchists on
0:05:41 > 0:05:44the streets of at then, amid a general strike. The plan is to
0:05:44 > 0:05:49write off nearly two-thirds of Greek debt. But the banks that will
0:05:49 > 0:05:52take the losses from this troubled country are behind the scenes
0:05:52 > 0:05:56resisting. And if they resist hard enough, it will be the global
0:05:56 > 0:06:00banking system that goes up in flames.
0:06:00 > 0:06:10Today, the French Prime Minister told the assembly it was certain
0:06:10 > 0:06:11
0:06:11 > 0:06:15Greece would be rescued to save 60 years of European construction.
0:06:15 > 0:06:18Those close to tonight's talks say it is the French banks conducting a
0:06:18 > 0:06:25rear guard action against the haircut. The biggest problem
0:06:25 > 0:06:32tonight remains the expanded bailout fund, the so-called ESSF,
0:06:32 > 0:06:38the whole thing relies on tricky engineering, and the Germans who
0:06:38 > 0:06:44are paying for it, need to see the Italians implement Austery, and in
0:06:44 > 0:06:47pursuit of that, - austerity, and in pursuit of that, the Italian
0:06:47 > 0:06:52Government has been brought close to collapse. Silvio Berlusconi
0:06:53 > 0:06:56wants to raise the pension age to 67, to prove Italy is worthy of the
0:06:56 > 0:07:06bailout. The northern league's leader, part of the coalition, does
0:07:06 > 0:07:09
0:07:09 > 0:07:12not. TRANSLATION: They can't put the pension age up to 67 just to
0:07:12 > 0:07:16please the Germans, the pensions are fine.
0:07:16 > 0:07:19Some doubt any deal could be done with the current Government in Rome.
0:07:19 > 0:07:23No-one trusts the Italians at the moment to get anything through. We
0:07:23 > 0:07:27have reported there are calls that Angela Merkel made to the President
0:07:27 > 0:07:30of Italy asking if there is any chance of Berlusconi leaving and a
0:07:30 > 0:07:34new Government to come in and bring credibility to this. It is a real
0:07:34 > 0:07:39pressing point right now. They want Italy to come to Brussels with
0:07:39 > 0:07:44something, if they don't, the whole question is whether they will be
0:07:44 > 0:07:49able to tap this bailout fund to buy Italian bonds and resell to
0:07:49 > 0:07:54market. Less than 24 hours to go to the summit and so much stuff left
0:07:54 > 0:07:58undecided. The challenge in Brussels is to do a deal that works,
0:07:58 > 0:08:02the ESFS will take Italy out of the bond market for a year in return
0:08:02 > 0:08:05for austerity and Spain. If we take Spain and Italy out of the market
0:08:05 > 0:08:10for a year, at the end of the year we hope they will have regained
0:08:10 > 0:08:16confidence in the markets. That is very unlikely. If they implement
0:08:16 > 0:08:20the austerity measures demanded it will undermine their gross.Th they
0:08:20 > 0:08:24will look worse and the parbgts won't want to buy their debt. If
0:08:24 > 0:08:27they don't put the austerity measures in, the markets will
0:08:27 > 0:08:33assume they are responsible and they won't take the measures
0:08:33 > 0:08:36necessary, and they can't cut it, it is unlikely that Spain and Italy
0:08:36 > 0:08:40will regain market confidence by the end of the year. That is why
0:08:40 > 0:08:46they are taking it to the wire. This is a film with no script
0:08:46 > 0:08:53writer, no directors, and actors who don't know their lines. It is
0:08:53 > 0:09:01careering to a crisis and nobody knows how.
0:09:01 > 0:09:11I'm joined by my guests tonight. Let's go to Rome first. Is the
0:09:11 > 0:09:17
0:09:17 > 0:09:20Italian Government likely to agree to put the pension age up to 67?
0:09:20 > 0:09:26party, part of the coalition will agree with that, I hope the other
0:09:26 > 0:09:30party will agree with that. I'm confident we will implement the
0:09:30 > 0:09:34measures in one way or another in the next weeks. You are a member of
0:09:35 > 0:09:43Mr Berlusconi's party, is that Government going to survive, do you
0:09:43 > 0:09:48think? Well, I think it will survive. But, I think that whether
0:09:49 > 0:09:53the Government survives or not, we will implement those measures. By
0:09:53 > 0:09:57the way we have implemented many measures, during the month of
0:09:57 > 0:10:00August we passed several measures, including most of the requests we
0:10:01 > 0:10:05received from the European Central Bank. You must be very grateful to
0:10:05 > 0:10:13the French and Germans, thank heavens for Mrs Merkel and Mr
0:10:13 > 0:10:20Sarkozy, for making you do things you wouldn't otherwise do? Actually
0:10:20 > 0:10:26we would have done those things any way. Because we answer to the
0:10:26 > 0:10:30markets and the Italian people, and we listen, but not answer to the
0:10:30 > 0:10:33leaders of other countries, since we are sovereign states. You are
0:10:33 > 0:10:36confident, are you, that the other countries, notably France and
0:10:36 > 0:10:40Germany, of course, will be sufficiently convinced that you are
0:10:40 > 0:10:50taking this seriously, that some sort of deal tomorrow will be
0:10:50 > 0:10:51
0:10:51 > 0:10:55possible? I think they are much more convinced that - than they
0:10:55 > 0:11:00show. The fact is, that currently they are worried with the problem
0:11:00 > 0:11:08of Greece, where France has lots of interests. And the real problem
0:11:08 > 0:11:12currently is that one. So they are trying to draw the attention to put
0:11:12 > 0:11:17the attention on Italy, the problem is Greece and France with lots of
0:11:18 > 0:11:21money in Greece. If they want to save French banks rather than the
0:11:21 > 0:11:24euro, the problem is France and Greece, not Italy. This is always
0:11:24 > 0:11:31the problem, it is always somebody else's fault, isn't it, do you
0:11:31 > 0:11:36think there will be a deal tomorrow? It is not the fact, well,
0:11:37 > 0:11:43I might say the same thing about what they are saying in France, and
0:11:43 > 0:11:49Germany, that they say it is somebody else's fault. It is not
0:11:49 > 0:11:54Italy's fault if French banks have lent Greece 150 billion euros. And
0:11:54 > 0:11:59so you cannot tell me I'm putting the blame on others. We are taking
0:11:59 > 0:12:04our responsibility, but we have no responsibility to the Greek
0:12:04 > 0:12:09problems or the French banks' problems. Thank you very much for
0:12:09 > 0:12:12joining us. We go to Brussels now and talk to a spokesman there. Do
0:12:12 > 0:12:18you think there will be a deal tomorrow? Yes, I think there will
0:12:18 > 0:12:21be a deal tomorrow. I think your presentation of the problem was
0:12:21 > 0:12:31slightly sensationaliseed, and I think we're call working for an
0:12:31 > 0:12:34
0:12:34 > 0:12:41agreement tomorrow evening. So you think when President Sarkozy said
0:12:41 > 0:12:45Europe was never so close to exploding today, that was wrong was
0:12:45 > 0:12:49it? That possibility that there could be an explosion does wonders
0:12:49 > 0:12:53to concentrate everybody's minds to reach agreement. May I take you up
0:12:53 > 0:12:56on something you said earlier about the finance ministers' meeting
0:12:56 > 0:12:58being cancelled. There is a simple explanation for. That once it was
0:12:58 > 0:13:02decided that the prime ministers would come to the meeting, there
0:13:02 > 0:13:05was no need for the finance ministers to come to the meetings.
0:13:05 > 0:13:09If you have the heads of Government coming to the meeting, there is no
0:13:09 > 0:13:13longer a need for the finance ministers to come. It is as simple
0:13:13 > 0:13:16as that. Although, of course, that was known some days ago. Let's talk
0:13:16 > 0:13:20about what deal might be reached tomorrow? That was only decided,
0:13:20 > 0:13:25that was actually only decided on Sunday that all 27 heads of
0:13:25 > 0:13:29Government would come to the meeting tomorrow evening. OK. Let's
0:13:29 > 0:13:39not get into nit-picking about. That let's talk about the deal.
0:13:39 > 0:13:42but you presented it as a problem, it is not a problem, it has been
0:13:42 > 0:13:47known since Sunday, it is not something new and dramatic, it is
0:13:47 > 0:13:53quite normal. Will you be telling us, or will we be told, some how,
0:13:53 > 0:13:57the details of the deal? Well, yes, of course, as soon as the deal is
0:13:57 > 0:14:01reached. We wouldn't be having a meeting if there was already a deal
0:14:01 > 0:14:05in place. But everyone knows the three main elements that are being
0:14:05 > 0:14:09negotiated about. One bit has already been effectively more or
0:14:09 > 0:14:13less agreed, that is the package for recapitalisation of banks.
0:14:13 > 0:14:18There is faiing on that is there? There are on going - a figure on
0:14:18 > 0:14:23that is there? There is on going discussions about everything. There
0:14:23 > 0:14:27is a figure of just over 100 million euros, that part of the
0:14:27 > 0:14:32deal is more or less put to bed, everything has to be agreed as part
0:14:32 > 0:14:35of the package. But that bit is pretty well settled. The other two
0:14:35 > 0:14:38elements there are still negotiations. But they are going on,
0:14:38 > 0:14:43and we are quite confident that there will be an agreement tomorrow
0:14:43 > 0:14:48evening. And we will be told, will we, how big the European Financial
0:14:48 > 0:14:53Stability Fund will be? Yes, there are discussion about how to
0:14:53 > 0:14:57leverage the existing fund, whose size is known, in order to increase
0:14:57 > 0:15:04its fire power. There are two models being looked at for how you
0:15:04 > 0:15:12could do that. It could be a combination of both models, if so
0:15:12 > 0:15:18we will have a significant increase in the problem of the ESFS, you
0:15:18 > 0:15:22call it a bailout for loans, for countries who need time to turn the
0:15:22 > 0:15:28corner, they are getting loans, not grants from the tax-payers. That
0:15:28 > 0:15:33will be put in place tomorrow evening. If there is no deal fom
0:15:33 > 0:15:35tomorrow, will it be a disaster? There will be a deal, because
0:15:35 > 0:15:39everybody recognises the importance of reaching a deal tomorrow. This
0:15:39 > 0:15:42is part of a process. There will be technical things to be wrapped up
0:15:42 > 0:15:48afterwards. Just as there are many things put in place already. This
0:15:48 > 0:15:52has been a process, admittedly a step by step process, but that's
0:15:52 > 0:15:56because the union is not a dictatorship, but of democracies.
0:15:56 > 0:15:59They all have to go through their democratic procedures, you have to
0:15:59 > 0:16:04first reach agreement among the elected Governments. They often
0:16:04 > 0:16:08need to get parliamentary approval in their domestic Parliaments for
0:16:08 > 0:16:14these packages. It is inevitably step by step, and some what slower
0:16:14 > 0:16:19than the markets wish who act at the click of a mouse. Democratic
0:16:19 > 0:16:23procedures, even when speedy, do take a bit of time.
0:16:23 > 0:16:26Whether David Cameron feels his position in Europe has been
0:16:26 > 0:16:30strengthened by what happened last night in Parliament is something he
0:16:30 > 0:16:34won't tell us. Of course he won't, but the plain fact is dozens of his
0:16:34 > 0:16:38own MPs snubbed him last night, by calling for a referendum on our
0:16:38 > 0:16:43relations with the EU. It is also as plain on the noses of the faces
0:16:43 > 0:16:50of Prime Minister and deputy, that the two parties in the coalition
0:16:50 > 0:16:53have entirely different ambitions in Europe.
0:16:53 > 0:16:57Yesterday's Government whipping operation did lack a bit of fire
0:16:57 > 0:17:00power. Fitting, perhaps, then, that today the Prime Minister visited
0:17:00 > 0:17:06some heavy weapons at a defence manufacturer.
0:17:06 > 0:17:10His first job is to sort out his political defences.
0:17:10 > 0:17:17The tactic for today seemed to be to try to sooth his troubled
0:17:17 > 0:17:20backbenchers. There is no, on my part, no bad blood, no bitterness,
0:17:20 > 0:17:24these are valued Conservative colleagues, I understand why people
0:17:24 > 0:17:28feel strongly, and we will go forward together and tackle the
0:17:28 > 0:17:31difficult decisions the country faces. What backbenchers seem more
0:17:31 > 0:17:35interested in, is not being soothed, but evidence the Prime Minister is
0:17:35 > 0:17:39going to deliver on what he seemed to promise yesterday. Like you I
0:17:39 > 0:17:43want to see fundamental reform, like you I want to refashion our
0:17:43 > 0:17:47membership of the EU so it better service our nation's interests.
0:17:47 > 0:17:52the weekend, Mr Cameron told us any treaty change the EU needed to make
0:17:52 > 0:17:56would be an opportunity for Britain to insist on reform. Treaty change
0:17:56 > 0:18:01can only happen if it is agreed by all 27 member states of the
0:18:01 > 0:18:05European Union. Any treaty change, as the last treaty change did, is
0:18:05 > 0:18:09an opportunity for Britain to advance our national interest.
0:18:09 > 0:18:13The rebellious mood among David Cameron's backbenchers hasn't
0:18:13 > 0:18:18exactly been improved today. They are now looking for concrete
0:18:18 > 0:18:21evidence that the Government intends to repatriate powers from
0:18:21 > 0:18:28Brussels. But, instead of that, what they see they have got is,
0:18:28 > 0:18:31well, doubt whether it is actually Government policy at all.
0:18:31 > 0:18:33The Conservatives' Liberal Democrat coalition partners certainly aren't
0:18:33 > 0:18:37looking to repatriate powers from Brussels. The deputy Prime Minister
0:18:37 > 0:18:42today was looking at some virtual reality technology. He says it is
0:18:42 > 0:18:47the Conservatives who need to get real. Unless you have got a strong
0:18:47 > 0:18:51prosperous eurozone, you can't have a strong prosperous United Kingdom.
0:18:51 > 0:18:55That is why this Government is not going to launch some smash 'n grab
0:18:55 > 0:18:59raid on Brussels on its own, which would never work, it would be
0:18:59 > 0:19:01condemned to failure any way. Holloway voted against the
0:19:01 > 0:19:06Government yesterday, and in the process lost his junior Government
0:19:06 > 0:19:11position. He knows what he wants David Cameron to deliver now.
0:19:11 > 0:19:16very clear statement of the sort of powers that we would like to
0:19:16 > 0:19:19repatriate, and some sort of time frame. But that time frame may well
0:19:19 > 0:19:23be outside the time that we are in a coalition. We may be looking at
0:19:23 > 0:19:27when the Tories next to come to power. I think some sort of road
0:19:27 > 0:19:31map, if you like for that, for the future, would be very, very helpful,
0:19:31 > 0:19:35especially if you are talking about party management. It is that phrase
0:19:35 > 0:19:39"party management", that you hear time and time again. David
0:19:39 > 0:19:41Cameron's style is not necessarily appreciated by all of his
0:19:41 > 0:19:46backbenchers. In a sense all prime ministers have this complaint
0:19:46 > 0:19:50levelled against them. Not all MPs have a leader who, shall we say,
0:19:50 > 0:19:55shares their own view, of their own ability. But are there some other
0:19:55 > 0:20:01reasons that David Cameron has lost the loyalty of some?'S Upset some
0:20:01 > 0:20:06MPs over expenses, by taking a very draconian stance. He upset lots of
0:20:06 > 0:20:10candidates by having an A-list, where he had certain candidates
0:20:10 > 0:20:15that are preferred with the plum seats. A lot of candidates selected
0:20:15 > 0:20:19were never on the A-list. They feel they became MPs despite David
0:20:19 > 0:20:21Cameron, not because of him. Other MPs were kept quiet during the time
0:20:21 > 0:20:24he was changing the Conservative Party's electoral strategy. He said
0:20:24 > 0:20:28we must change to win. And of course, in the end, the
0:20:28 > 0:20:32Conservative Party didn't win. Party management isn't helped by
0:20:32 > 0:20:35the fact that David Cameron has to give coveted Government jobs to
0:20:35 > 0:20:41Liberal Democrats. But, according to one of last night's rebels,
0:20:41 > 0:20:44there are still some things he can do. Appointments must be made on
0:20:44 > 0:20:48merit, because people can accept they are not a minister if they
0:20:48 > 0:20:52think the people are ministers are there for the right reasons. Whilst
0:20:52 > 0:20:55I fully support having a third of ministers to be female, that is
0:20:55 > 0:20:59fine, as long as all those appointments are made on merit.
0:20:59 > 0:21:03That is the first point. The second one, of course, is there is a
0:21:03 > 0:21:08feeling that when people sort of cross the party, there is no way
0:21:08 > 0:21:13back. I think it is important for a few people who have fallen by the
0:21:13 > 0:21:17way side to be brought back into the fold. I would say both those
0:21:17 > 0:21:22things, not being female, and having just lost my position in the
0:21:22 > 0:21:25Government, such as it was. Obviously issues don't come any
0:21:25 > 0:21:29more explosive for the Conservative Party than Europe, but there are
0:21:29 > 0:21:33other potential rebellions in the air. In fact, we don't have to look
0:21:33 > 0:21:38any further into the future than Monday, then the issue that might
0:21:38 > 0:21:42trigger it is knife crime. If only there were levers he could
0:21:42 > 0:21:46pull to make his party behave, but David Cameron knows he is, in the
0:21:46 > 0:21:50future, going to have to choose his battles, if he wants his MPs to
0:21:50 > 0:21:54follow orders. With us now is the Conservative MP,
0:21:54 > 0:21:59Jacob Rees-Mogg, one of the 2010 intake who rebelled yesterday. We
0:21:59 > 0:22:03are joined by former Liberal Democrat leader, Charles Kennedy.
0:22:03 > 0:22:08When David Cameron talks about bringing back powers from Brussels,
0:22:08 > 0:22:12is he talking as party leader or leader of the Government? He's both.
0:22:12 > 0:22:14You understand him to be talking about Government policy. He's
0:22:14 > 0:22:20talking as the Conservative Party leader and Prime Minister. But he
0:22:20 > 0:22:24leads a coalition, and he has to carry the coalition with him.
0:22:24 > 0:22:29Ultimately, if the Lib Dems really want to hand powers back to Europe
0:22:29 > 0:22:34rather than keem them in Britain, they can walk - keep them in
0:22:34 > 0:22:38Britain, they can walk out and have another election. Number Ten said
0:22:38 > 0:22:42he wasn't speaking as leader of the Government but as leader of the
0:22:42 > 0:22:49party, you are saying it is a distinction that can't be made?
0:22:49 > 0:22:55can't make of the Prime Minister, he is Prime Minister and leader of
0:22:55 > 0:22:58the country, the two are closely linked because is leader of the
0:22:58 > 0:23:01Conservative Party. What do you think? As Prime Minister you are
0:23:01 > 0:23:05head of the Government. The subsequent clarification that came
0:23:05 > 0:23:09from Number Ten that you referred to, a little later, after his
0:23:09 > 0:23:13remarks this morning, point to the difficulty that is now taking place
0:23:13 > 0:23:17for the Conservatives. You know, last night's debate, it was
0:23:17 > 0:23:22actually a very good debate in many ways. But what it revealed was not
0:23:22 > 0:23:26so much about the fault lines in terms of Europe and European policy,
0:23:26 > 0:23:29it was the continuing fault lines that have been there for the 25
0:23:29 > 0:23:31years plus that I have been in the Commons now, within the
0:23:31 > 0:23:39Conservative Party. I'm afraid other parties can't solve that
0:23:39 > 0:23:43party for them. He spoke as leader of a Government which includes your
0:23:43 > 0:23:46party? Yes, and you also fairly paid the clip of Nick Clegg
0:23:46 > 0:23:52responding to those remarks a little later on in the course of
0:23:52 > 0:23:55the morning. Making quite clear where we stood on this. I don't
0:23:55 > 0:24:01know what Jacob is referring to about us wanting to hand more
0:24:01 > 0:24:04powers to Europe, we have not said anything to that effect. I'm not
0:24:04 > 0:24:10clear about what are the powers the Conservatives want to, or think
0:24:10 > 0:24:13they can, or how they are going to go about achieving the repatriation
0:24:13 > 0:24:16from Europe. Do you blame the Liberal Democrats for this mess?
0:24:16 > 0:24:21think the Liberal Democrats are wonderful, loyal people, who who
0:24:21 > 0:24:28have taken a serious decision, that is destroying them electorally, to
0:24:28 > 0:24:37back a Conservative Government to solve an economic crisis we face.
0:24:37 > 0:24:45On Europe they have always talked nonsense. That is theesprit decore
0:24:45 > 0:24:50we have in this coalition and face! Jacob is entitled to his opinions,
0:24:50 > 0:24:54he's a chip off all the distinguished block, I greatly
0:24:54 > 0:25:00reveer his dad, but time has moved on. What is needed is a rational
0:25:00 > 0:25:05debate about Europe. It is an issue, you have a gradeation of opinion
0:25:05 > 0:25:08air strikes cross each of the political parties. None are so deep
0:25:08 > 0:25:11and irreconcilable as they appear to be within the Conservative Party.
0:25:11 > 0:25:21That is, at the end of the day, an issue that they will have to
0:25:21 > 0:25:25
0:25:25 > 0:25:33resolve. Can you be reconciled in the Conservative Party?
0:25:33 > 0:25:37Conservative Party is united in Europe, but there was strong Euro-
0:25:37 > 0:25:39sceptic statements from the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary,
0:25:39 > 0:25:42it is the coalition divided on Europe, not the Conservative Party.
0:25:42 > 0:25:47That is important. Clearly you are deeply worried. When you were
0:25:47 > 0:25:54speaking last night, you talked about, you invoked the spirit of
0:25:54 > 0:26:01henry V, stiffen the sinews. Summon up the blood. Be like a tiger. As
0:26:01 > 0:26:06opposed to being like Bagpuss. is absolutely right. Who is Bagpuss
0:26:06 > 0:26:11in this rhetorical flight? Thank you for listening to the speech so
0:26:11 > 0:26:15carefully. Who is Bagpuss? What the Prime Minister needs is to be able
0:26:15 > 0:26:19to say to Lib Dem partners and in Brussels, that I have to get powers
0:26:19 > 0:26:22back because my backbenchers want it. So David Cameron is Bagpuss?
0:26:22 > 0:26:26Certainly not. We strengthen the Prime Minister's position and help
0:26:26 > 0:26:30him to have the courage of a tiger when he's negotiating with the Lib
0:26:30 > 0:26:36Dems. Otherwise left to his own devices he would be Bagpuss? No the
0:26:36 > 0:26:40Lib Dems are closer to Bagpuss than the Prime Minister. There you are,
0:26:40 > 0:26:43Charles Kennedy Cat On A Hot Tin Roof. We should end the metaphor or
0:26:43 > 0:26:48we will end up like Theresa May at the Tory Party conference. I think
0:26:48 > 0:26:51the point is this. I was our European spokesman all the moons
0:26:51 > 0:26:55ago when Maastricht Treaty was going through. I argued for a
0:26:55 > 0:27:01referendum at that time, and voted for a referendum en mass trict. We
0:27:01 > 0:27:07take the view, as we said in the last manifesto, if you have got a -
0:27:07 > 0:27:13on Maastricht, we take the view, as we said in the last manifesto, if
0:27:13 > 0:27:17you have got a view and it is about to go forward, you should put that
0:27:17 > 0:27:21to the people. The problem Jacob and his colleagues have got is we
0:27:21 > 0:27:25had this great debate last night, very entertaining stuff, not least
0:27:25 > 0:27:29Bagpuss, the fact of the matter is, those, there are some that want to
0:27:29 > 0:27:33withdraw, the Conservatives, there are some who want to stay in and
0:27:33 > 0:27:38reform, and that's not quite clear that what that means. There are
0:27:38 > 0:27:43some talking about repatriation and a European free trade zone in which
0:27:43 > 0:27:46the UK a member. For Jacob to try to pretend that is a united
0:27:46 > 0:27:50Conservative position is hog wash. That is a fair point isn't it?
0:27:50 > 0:27:54is wrong, the Prime Minister said that every treaty requires
0:27:54 > 0:27:58unanimity and is an opportunity to renegotiate. That is what the
0:27:58 > 0:28:00Conservative Party wants. We are completely united on that. What he
0:28:00 > 0:28:04said had the support of the overwhelming majority of the party.
0:28:04 > 0:28:07We voted to strengthen his arm in negotiations.
0:28:07 > 0:28:11In case he becomes Bagpuss? wouldn't dream of doing such a
0:28:11 > 0:28:19thing. Thank you very much. Now to the second in our series of
0:28:19 > 0:28:29films to mark the birthday, some time in the next few days, of the
0:28:29 > 0:28:34seven billionth person on this planet for some time.
0:28:34 > 0:28:43Fergal Keane has been to one of the worst affected areas in Africa, in
0:28:43 > 0:28:52the remote north of the country and found a crisis compounded by
0:28:52 > 0:28:59decades of corruption Turkana. The burning air yields nothing.
0:28:59 > 0:29:03Too many seasons without rain have turned the ground to dust.
0:29:03 > 0:29:12Like so much of the rest of the Horn of Africa, the lands of the
0:29:12 > 0:29:17Turkana are in the grip of drought. They are nomadic past tollalists,
0:29:17 > 0:29:23who rely on the - Pastoralists who rely on the rain for their lands.
0:29:23 > 0:29:30Now they come seeking relief. This emergency feeding centre is
0:29:30 > 0:29:37providing rations for malnourished children. The animals on which
0:29:38 > 0:29:41these people depended for a living have died. A tribe which is among
0:29:41 > 0:29:46the most resilient and self- sufficient in the world, is reduced
0:29:46 > 0:29:49to kpwueing for food. All morning people - reduced to queuing for
0:29:49 > 0:29:53food. All morning people have continued to arrive, as news
0:29:53 > 0:29:58spreads that food and medical help is available. If you require that
0:29:58 > 0:30:04this is just one village out of hundreds, across this region. You
0:30:04 > 0:30:12get a sense of the magnitude of this drought. How many droughts
0:30:12 > 0:30:21have you seen in your life? Ten droughts.
0:30:21 > 0:30:27Is this as bad as the other ones or worse? TRANSLATION: He says this is
0:30:27 > 0:30:32worst of all. There are still food shortages,
0:30:32 > 0:30:39despite the donation of a huge amount of international aid. What
0:30:40 > 0:30:46are the problems with the children here? Malnutrition. That's the main
0:30:46 > 0:30:50problem? Yeah, malnutrition. I have set out to discover why
0:30:50 > 0:30:56there is no food security in a country that has received billions
0:30:56 > 0:31:01in international aid over decades. Drought caused by climate change is
0:31:01 > 0:31:08certainly a major problem. And the fact that Kenya hosts more than
0:31:08 > 0:31:15half a million starving refugees from Somalia. But Kenya's crisis
0:31:15 > 0:31:21has other, murkier roots. God makes droughts, men make familiar anyones,
0:31:21 > 0:31:24and we stole from - famines, we stole from ourselves and we are
0:31:24 > 0:31:31starving as a result. Across East Africa, the brunt of
0:31:31 > 0:31:37the food crisis is being borne by Pastoralist communities like these,
0:31:37 > 0:31:42there have been some Government- sponsored projects but the
0:31:42 > 0:31:50overwhelming sense is of neglect. The infrastructure here is meagre
0:31:50 > 0:31:54and much of it crumbling. Joseph sells water to his foal low
0:31:54 > 0:32:00villagers, that he draws from this hole in the bed of a dried out
0:32:00 > 0:32:04river. TRANSLATION: We feel rejected by
0:32:04 > 0:32:08the Government. I don't understand why they don't help. Why they don't
0:32:08 > 0:32:11provide any saistance. The Government has a lot of funds -
0:32:11 > 0:32:16assistance, the Government has a lot of funds but none of it
0:32:16 > 0:32:22trickles down here. The Kenyan's Government official line is to
0:32:22 > 0:32:28blame the drought for this crisis. The international community and the
0:32:28 > 0:32:34Kenyan Government have now mounted a massive relief operation. A
0:32:34 > 0:32:38record �72 million was donated in Britain to help feed the starving.
0:32:38 > 0:32:44What's unfolding here isn't simply the consequence of drought. Kenya's
0:32:44 > 0:32:48food crisis is, above all, a crisis of governance. You simply can't
0:32:48 > 0:32:52separate the imagery of hunger from the corruption and neglect that has
0:32:52 > 0:32:57characterised the rule of Kenya's political elite.
0:32:57 > 0:33:01It is all grimly familiar to the man who was once Kenya's anti-
0:33:01 > 0:33:06corruption chief, and who now helps the UK Government monitor how its
0:33:06 > 0:33:10aid is spent. How much of an imfact did corruption have on the hunger
0:33:10 > 0:33:14crisis - impact did corruption have on the hunger crisis in this
0:33:14 > 0:33:17country now? The drought we have in Kenya is a Government drought, it
0:33:17 > 0:33:25is a corruption drought. It is what has turned the drought into a
0:33:25 > 0:33:30familiar anyone. - Famine. Two years ago Kenya knew
0:33:30 > 0:33:35it was facing a severe drought, but it emerged that officials sold much
0:33:35 > 0:33:41of the country's grain to middle men for subsidised prices, the
0:33:41 > 0:33:46middle men sold to the market at he can sorbant rates. Who were the -
0:33:46 > 0:33:50exsorbant rates. Who were the people? People connected to
0:33:50 > 0:33:57politicians. That is people profiteering out of famine?
0:33:57 > 0:34:05Absolutely it is the coldest most merciless kind of corruption. This
0:34:05 > 0:34:09time people are dying now. Nairobi, headquarters of the
0:34:09 > 0:34:13Government and the courts, authors of the scandal have gone unpunished
0:34:13 > 0:34:19by the law, like so many before them. An estimated one third of the
0:34:19 > 0:34:23country's budget may vanish to corruption every year.
0:34:24 > 0:34:30Food aid, in this case, from Saudi Arabia, is being used to make up
0:34:30 > 0:34:34the shortfall in Kenya's supplies. When I met the minister responsible
0:34:34 > 0:34:42for the relief effort, she was remarkably candid about what
0:34:42 > 0:34:47corruption has done to her country. I think it has ruined us, because
0:34:47 > 0:34:53if a son sees his father stealing and he gets away with it, he thinks
0:34:53 > 0:34:57it is the way to do things. Until we prosecute and say no to impunity,
0:34:57 > 0:35:03then there remains the problem. doesn't matter how high up the
0:35:03 > 0:35:07chain it goes? In fact, the higher you reach the better the message
0:35:07 > 0:35:17would be received better. Because occasionally, and what the cry of
0:35:17 > 0:35:21the Kenyans has been, is that the courts start targeting the small
0:35:21 > 0:35:24fish not the big fish, if we targeted the big fish the message
0:35:24 > 0:35:28would be loud and clear. Some of your Government colleagues might be
0:35:28 > 0:35:32nervous hearing you say that, and might not be too happy with that?
0:35:32 > 0:35:37If you are corrupt you don't have to be happy. There are those in the
0:35:37 > 0:35:41Government who believe it when they say that. But then they are not the
0:35:41 > 0:35:44ones that wield the vital levers of power in the Government. You have
0:35:44 > 0:35:49to keep in mind this is a coalition Government, we don't have an
0:35:49 > 0:35:56opposition in Kenya, really, it is a mixture of everyone. With a fair
0:35:56 > 0:36:00sprinkling of crooks in high places? Absolutely, with a fair
0:36:00 > 0:36:05sprinkling of hardened thieves in high places. International donors
0:36:05 > 0:36:11increasingly seek to deal with the dilemma of corruption, by bypassing
0:36:11 > 0:36:17the state. Here British aid is being used to try to stimulate
0:36:17 > 0:36:21local markets, moving people from Pastoralism to the cash economy.
0:36:21 > 0:36:2621 century technology is harnessed in the remotist of places. These
0:36:26 > 0:36:33women run small shops, with grants they receive from Oxfam. Money that
0:36:33 > 0:36:38goes directly from donors in Britain to local people. They cue
0:36:38 > 0:36:45with their smart cards, but instead of a pin to get the cash, they give
0:36:45 > 0:36:50a thumb print. This woman supports six children from a small shop.
0:36:50 > 0:36:53Tran All my animals died, - TRANSLATION: All my animals died, I
0:36:53 > 0:36:57was forced to beg for food, this opportunity helped me open up a
0:36:57 > 0:37:02business, now I can afford to feed my family.
0:37:02 > 0:37:12A way of life dependant on regular rain to provide grazing is
0:37:12 > 0:37:14
0:37:14 > 0:37:17threatened, perhaps terminally. Hire on the shores of Lake Turkana,
0:37:17 > 0:37:26an EU scheme is encouraging Pastoralists to turn to fishing to
0:37:26 > 0:37:31eek out a living. This man lost a huge flock of
0:37:31 > 0:37:37animals, among them, 200 goats. For him, the Government has always been
0:37:37 > 0:37:42far away. TRANSLATION: There is a small amount of aid from the
0:37:42 > 0:37:51Government, but I haven't had any help. Some get the food, others
0:37:51 > 0:37:56live without. It says much about the scale of the crisis facing the
0:37:56 > 0:37:59Pastoralists of Turkana, that a people who used not even eat fish,
0:37:59 > 0:38:03whose sense of themselves was built about roaming the land with their
0:38:03 > 0:38:05livestock, should now find themselves here as part of a
0:38:05 > 0:38:08community of fishermen. The big issue isn't that many more
0:38:08 > 0:38:15thousands will have to change their way of life, it is whether they can
0:38:15 > 0:38:20survive at all in this part of Africa.
0:38:20 > 0:38:26Aid that goes directly to communities can change lives. But
0:38:26 > 0:38:34the forces ranged against these people are daunting. Climate change,
0:38:34 > 0:38:39rising food prices, corruption. How important is it to end the culture
0:38:39 > 0:38:42of immunity that has allowed people at the very - impunity that has
0:38:42 > 0:38:46allowed people at the very stop from looting the people? If we
0:38:46 > 0:38:51don't solve that I can see the crisis year in year out for the
0:38:52 > 0:38:57next 20 years, I don't know. The world can pour any amount of
0:38:57 > 0:39:02food aid into Kenya, the NGOs can work to mitigate the effects of
0:39:02 > 0:39:08drought, but the central truth of the story of the Turkana, is that
0:39:08 > 0:39:12hunger is ultimately a matter of politics.
0:39:12 > 0:39:17It used to be the case that if we wanted to be shocked by violent
0:39:17 > 0:39:20graphic video we would have to pay our money and take our seat for the
0:39:20 > 0:39:23latest horror movie at the local picture house. How deliberate and
0:39:23 > 0:39:27planned that now seems when contrasted to the images that went
0:39:27 > 0:39:34round the world within minutes of Gaddafi first being beaten, and
0:39:34 > 0:39:39then a decaying corpse on display in a meat store. We will discuss
0:39:39 > 0:39:42these images tomorrow with film maker David Cronenberg, who
0:39:42 > 0:39:47collects an award from the British Film Institute tomorrow. Cronenberg
0:39:47 > 0:39:52has been famous throughout his career for makes films exploring
0:39:52 > 0:39:58dystopian visions of the future, the impact of technology on the
0:39:58 > 0:40:05human experience, deviant behaviour, sub conscious desires and extreme
0:40:05 > 0:40:14perversions. His 1996 film, Crash, shocked viewers and critics alike,
0:40:14 > 0:40:19by exploring the sexual thrill of the car accident. She's a walking
0:40:19 > 0:40:23advertisment...His Latest film, A Dangerous Method, gets to the root
0:40:23 > 0:40:29of the preoccupations, by looking at the creator of the idea of the
0:40:29 > 0:40:35sub conscious, fraud, and his relationship with Carl Yung. There
0:40:35 > 0:40:39is a rumour running around veeyenya now you have taken one of your
0:40:39 > 0:40:49patients as a mistress. Cronenberg's capacity for violence,
0:40:49 > 0:40:54
0:40:54 > 0:40:59and the power of the shock, has empowered cinema of our time. Put
0:40:59 > 0:41:05images on Korean that horrify, has risen again when pictures of a
0:41:05 > 0:41:09bloodied Gaddafi was sent around the world on mobile phones within
0:41:09 > 0:41:12minutes. What is the reaction to exposure of these images, are we
0:41:12 > 0:41:16becoming unshockable, if so, does it matter.
0:41:16 > 0:41:20David Cronenberg is here now, what did you think when you saw those
0:41:20 > 0:41:25images of Gaddafi? What surprised me was a Gaddafi, who was never a
0:41:25 > 0:41:29favourite of mine, I was suddenly feeling quite sorry for him, I felt
0:41:29 > 0:41:33huge empathy, and it was quite striking to me that I felt that way.
0:41:33 > 0:41:39It surprised me. I think it is because at that moment he had been
0:41:39 > 0:41:43striped of all context and he was a human being who was suffering and
0:41:43 > 0:41:48being assaulted. Do you think that the instant availability of that
0:41:48 > 0:41:52sort of footage, and it is now available, we didn't show most of
0:41:52 > 0:41:58it there, it is pretty horrific, do you think it affects us, how does
0:41:58 > 0:42:02it affect us? As I say, you can make a case for it enhancing our
0:42:02 > 0:42:05sense of empathy for people. It is easy to say we're being
0:42:05 > 0:42:08desensitised because we see a lot of it. I don't really think that is
0:42:08 > 0:42:13the function, that is something that has been mentioned to me,
0:42:13 > 0:42:17because my earlier films were all horror films. People say do your
0:42:17 > 0:42:22films desensitise people, I think not. I think people really
0:42:22 > 0:42:32understand there is a kifrpbs when you are seeing a fictional -
0:42:32 > 0:42:32
0:42:32 > 0:42:35difference when you see a fictional content. Yes, but that is not it?
0:42:36 > 0:42:41It draws a completely different reaction from us. I remember
0:42:41 > 0:42:44looking up on the Internet and watching a beheading, and I wish I
0:42:45 > 0:42:49hadn't seen it. It was so disturbing. Why did you do it?
0:42:49 > 0:42:53felt I needed to confront the reality of what was going on.
0:42:53 > 0:42:58you didn't need to? What really disturbed me about it is the
0:42:58 > 0:43:03perpetrators about the beheading were incredibly self-righteous,
0:43:03 > 0:43:07they felt they were doing a wonderful sacred holy thing, but on
0:43:07 > 0:43:13the human level it was absolutely hidious. You were drawn to it?
0:43:13 > 0:43:17I actually had to compel myself to watch it, almost feeling that I
0:43:17 > 0:43:20needed to confront what was going on in the world at the time. I have
0:43:21 > 0:43:29never watched another one. Why did you feel that you needed to
0:43:29 > 0:43:33confront it? Because you read about it, but no written description can
0:43:33 > 0:43:38really deliver to you the full texture of it. Did you know exactly
0:43:38 > 0:43:43what happens just from the word "beheading", you know what happens
0:43:43 > 0:43:47when someone is beheaded? You don't. Their head is cut off and they are
0:43:47 > 0:43:51dead, it is a horrible thing to do to someone? When you think of the
0:43:51 > 0:43:55Guillotin, and you think you have seen it in movies, you have never
0:43:55 > 0:44:01seen it, because there was no film at the time of the French
0:44:01 > 0:44:07Revolution. The Guillotin comes down and the head comes off. But no,
0:44:07 > 0:44:10this beheading took ages, it took half an hour, it was agonising, it
0:44:10 > 0:44:16wasn't even like a slaughterhouse, which is much more efficient, it
0:44:16 > 0:44:21was a ritual, full of self- righteousness. And to that extent
0:44:21 > 0:44:26I'm glad I saw it. What does it make you do, it really makes you
0:44:26 > 0:44:32hate the people who perpetrated it. Why have you been drawn to
0:44:32 > 0:44:42fictional violence in your films? don't think that I have been drawn
0:44:42 > 0:44:44
0:44:44 > 0:44:48to it more than verbal violence, let's say, my latest movie The Most
0:44:48 > 0:44:54Dangerous Method, which is not about violence, it is about the
0:44:54 > 0:44:58birth of psycho analysis. Certainly those things are connected, but as
0:44:58 > 0:45:04George Bernard Shaw said, conflict is the essence of drama, it doesn't
0:45:04 > 0:45:10always have to be physical conflict, but if you are a dramaist, you are
0:45:10 > 0:45:15drawn to conflict, as part of your art. Movies, controversially Crash,
0:45:15 > 0:45:22of course, these are movies about extreme human behaviour? Yes.
0:45:22 > 0:45:29is it interesting? Freud was attacked because of his insistence
0:45:29 > 0:45:34on the reality of the possibility of creatures from the Id, monsters
0:45:34 > 0:45:39of violence. When he he was proposing the unconscious, it was
0:45:39 > 0:45:42at a time when everybody felt man was evolving into a wonderful
0:45:42 > 0:45:47supercivilised controlled thing. this because you are anxious about
0:45:47 > 0:45:51the human potentialality for that sort of behaviour? Well, seeing
0:45:51 > 0:45:57things like the Gaddafi thing can make you anxious. You would be
0:45:57 > 0:46:03strange if it didn't. It is not so much anxiety as curiosity, really,
0:46:03 > 0:46:11or a desire to know. It is an artist and a psycho analyst, they
0:46:11 > 0:46:14do the same thing, they don't accept the official version of
0:46:14 > 0:46:19reality, they want to dive under and see what is going on. Some of
0:46:19 > 0:46:23it is dark, some of it is not just dark but unusual and curious and