:00:08. > :00:12.Are we in a lot more Hubble, bubble, toil and trouble on the deficit
:00:12. > :00:17.than the Government is letting on? New research commissioned by
:00:17. > :00:20.Newsnight warns that on the budget deficit something wicked this way
:00:20. > :00:25.comes. Low growth may force the Chancellor to push back his target,
:00:25. > :00:30.but the real frightener comes if the global situation turns bad and
:00:30. > :00:36.we get a dark decade. 100 leading economic thinkers say
:00:36. > :00:39.it is time for plan B. Britain's best known capitalist venturer begs
:00:39. > :00:44.to differ with one of them. The Greek, just when you thought
:00:44. > :00:47.the eurozone had locked down a deal, the Government and Athens has
:00:47. > :00:52.called a referendum on that European bailout.
:00:52. > :00:57.Outside St Paul's they are dancing, inside the clerics are busy arguing
:00:57. > :01:03.and quitting. Should Christian values on money lenders and temples
:01:03. > :01:09.be a no-brainer. She is unmistakable with her Faroe islands
:01:09. > :01:14.sweater and Nicorette gum, we speak to the star of The Killing. This
:01:14. > :01:18.role has challenged my own views of what is feminine and what is
:01:18. > :01:21.masculine: it has liberated a lot of my own fixed thoughts about
:01:21. > :01:25.which is which. Today there are a few machines to
:01:25. > :01:35.be cheerful as well, evolutionary psychologist, Steven Pinker, thinks
:01:35. > :01:38.
:01:38. > :01:41.the world is a less violent place, Good evening, the Government
:01:41. > :01:46.engaged in a flurry of activity today, Nick Clegg committed almost
:01:46. > :01:50.a billion pounds to industry, and trumpeted the possibility of
:01:50. > :01:55.200,000 new jobs. David Cameron penned an article in the FT warning
:01:55. > :01:59.us against pessimism and the danger of talking down our achievements.
:01:59. > :02:02.The quarterly growth figures coming out tomorrow is no coincidence. The
:02:02. > :02:05.consensus forecast is the figures are going to be poor. Is there
:02:05. > :02:12.anything the Government can do to get the economy moving.
:02:12. > :02:16.Here is our economics editor, Paul Mason. It is fright night for
:02:16. > :02:20.economists. Right now Government statisticians are getting ready to
:02:20. > :02:25.produce the growth figures for July/September, they could be
:02:25. > :02:29.scarely close to zero. Cue the deputy Prime Minister, to
:02:29. > :02:34.tell us what they are going to do about it. The Government today
:02:34. > :02:39.announced nearly a billion pounds worth of state aid to businesses,
:02:40. > :02:44.including to this once spuorned steel works in Sheffield. Let's not
:02:44. > :02:48.talk Britain down, these are competing industries, it is good
:02:48. > :02:51.the Government gets behind things that work, so we can create jobs
:02:51. > :02:58.for the young people of the future here and elsewhere. The opposition,
:02:58. > :03:01.sharpening the dagger for tomorrow, if the stats are bad, got a dig in
:03:01. > :03:04.first. The Government hasn't understood the scale of the
:03:04. > :03:07.problems the economy is facing and are not coming up with the measure
:03:07. > :03:10.that will make the real difference to people losing their jobs or in
:03:10. > :03:14.fear for their jobs and living standards. Once we get tomorrow's
:03:14. > :03:18.figures, the debate begins in ernest about how to turn things
:03:18. > :03:23.around. The problem s if you get lower growth, that drives a bit of
:03:23. > :03:27.a stake true the heart of the deficit reduction plan. If you go
:03:27. > :03:33.for tax cuts on top of that, the hole gets bigger. On the deficit,
:03:33. > :03:39.the Chancellor has set his own target. The structure deficit to be
:03:39. > :03:44.eradicated by 2014, debt to be falling as a percentage of GDP by
:03:44. > :03:49.2015/16. We asked the respected research firm, CEBR, to model the
:03:49. > :03:55.impact of low growth on the public finances. They use a similar model
:03:55. > :04:01.to the Treasury, but their results would not be popular there. This is
:04:01. > :04:03.what the Government thought would happen, debt peaks in 2013, the so-
:04:03. > :04:09.called structural deficit is eliminated in 2014, and the
:04:09. > :04:13.percentage of debt is falling in 2015/16. These last two points meet
:04:13. > :04:18.George Osborne's self-imposed target. But low growth this year
:04:18. > :04:22.begins to knock all that for six. If growth is just 0.9% a year,
:04:22. > :04:26.instead of the 1.7% they expected, this is what happens to debt. It
:04:27. > :04:32.ends up higher and the structural deficit is eradicated, if you are
:04:32. > :04:36.lucky, a year later. What lower growth does is it makes it very
:04:36. > :04:40.much more difficult to get in the tax revenues to bring the deficit
:04:40. > :04:43.down. If you don't bring the deficit down, then the debt GDP
:04:43. > :04:48.ratio, the thing which the foreign exchange markets and the other
:04:48. > :04:53.financial markets look at, keeps on rising. You but what then? If you
:04:53. > :05:00.add in tax cuts to low growth. We modelled an �8 billion tax cut next
:05:00. > :05:07.year, and �4 billion in 2013, debt ends up 5% GDP higher than planned,
:05:08. > :05:11.that is �85 billion, but the Chancellor could, just, meet his
:05:11. > :05:14.self-imposed target then. Our researchers don't believe we will
:05:14. > :05:19.have low growth just this year, but next year and the year after that.
:05:19. > :05:24.In that case there is a big hit. you add low growth to �12 billion
:05:24. > :05:29.tax cuts, our figures show the deficit to be still over �100
:05:29. > :05:37.billion, by the end of this parliament. It shows the ratio of
:05:37. > :05:41.debt to GDP still going on up, past 0%. Right now, the Treasury are
:05:41. > :05:45.burning the midnight pumpkin, trying to come up with radical new
:05:45. > :05:52.growth plan. Changes in employment law, a bonfire of planning
:05:52. > :05:57.regulations, but few think it can be done without tax cuts. What is
:05:57. > :06:01.shaken our growth is our uncompetitive tax and regulatory
:06:01. > :06:07.regimes. Looking at the World Economic Forum, we had the fourth
:06:07. > :06:11.most competitive tax regime in the world in 200, now we have the 94th
:06:11. > :06:14.most competitive tax regime in the world. There is something wrong in
:06:14. > :06:17.the figures. The Government should reduce taxes wherever possible to
:06:17. > :06:20.stimulate growth, while finding further savings in expenditure
:06:20. > :06:24.elsewhere. Those in contact with George Osborne's team, which low
:06:24. > :06:28.growth may force the Chancellor to push back his target by a year, or
:06:28. > :06:32.two. But the real frightener comes if
:06:32. > :06:39.the global situation turns dark and stays dark. Then we get a very
:06:39. > :06:45.scary decade. That's enough to frighten even the stoutist
:06:45. > :06:48.Chancellor. Joining me now are British venture capitalist, Jon
:06:48. > :06:53.Moulton, a member of the advisory board of Nick Clegg's Regional
:06:53. > :07:00.Growth Fun, and the former Labour minister, Kitty Ussher. Do you
:07:00. > :07:06.agree with that analysis that on the basis of a 0.% growth George
:07:06. > :07:14.Osborne has to put back the target. - 0.9% growth Osbourne has to put
:07:14. > :07:18.back his targets. If you have 0.9% growth the graphs just keep going
:07:18. > :07:23.back. The pictures there only predict one year. Last year in the
:07:23. > :07:27.budget the Chancellor bet for 3% growth for five consecutive years,
:07:27. > :07:33.we were never going to get it and we are not going to get it. Kitty
:07:33. > :07:37.Ussher, if growth sticks at 0.9% this year, and doesn't get higher
:07:37. > :07:41.than 1.7%, which was the original, does that mean the debt isn't
:07:41. > :07:45.eradicated? He has given himself a year's wriggle room, by giving a
:07:45. > :07:50.five-year target to be achieved in four years. That is reasonable?
:07:50. > :07:54.so it won't be a political disaster for him immediately. People will
:07:54. > :07:58.realise he's running out of options. If the situation carries on for a
:07:58. > :08:06.year or so, which is perfectly possible. He has a serious problem.
:08:06. > :08:09.You are involved in the regional growth fund, and that is being
:08:09. > :08:14.trumpeted to do great things, is that enough to keep things up?
:08:14. > :08:17.grants are going to good homes. I don't expect for free money we
:08:17. > :08:21.would have ten times as many people applying as we actually had. What
:08:21. > :08:25.does that suggest to you, that there is not enough manufacturing?
:08:25. > :08:29.There is not confidence or manufacturing. There isn't enough
:08:29. > :08:37.dynamism. If that is the case, you have people suffering increased
:08:37. > :08:41.inflation, suffering unemployment, suffering their standard of living
:08:41. > :08:44.dropping what is there for them, the positive outlook for them?
:08:44. > :08:48.we have to sort out the economy, which is not a friendly thing, it
:08:48. > :08:54.is not the easy thing. Basically we have a state which is half the
:08:54. > :08:58.economy. The public sector is half the economy. The economy can't grow
:08:58. > :09:03.quickly until the state is much smaller. Do you think actually a
:09:03. > :09:07.reform of the state in radical way is one way out of it, rather than
:09:07. > :09:10.as you perhaps would have had it, throwing good debt after bad debt?
:09:10. > :09:13.There is always things that the public sector can do better. I
:09:14. > :09:16.think the important point here is what John just said about
:09:16. > :09:19.confidence. Business doesn't have confidence, because the consumer
:09:19. > :09:23.doesn't have confidence. The consumer doesn't have confidence
:09:24. > :09:27.because a year ago the in coming Government told them there was the
:09:27. > :09:33.most almighty crisis, far worse than we could have ever possibly
:09:33. > :09:38.thought, so we will have to do draconian cuts faster. Do you think
:09:38. > :09:41.it is important. It knocked confidence and the public stopped
:09:41. > :09:45.spending money. The difference between perception and reality this
:09:45. > :09:50.is, actually what you are saying is that was hyperbole, and things
:09:50. > :09:55.aren't nearly as bad? It is not the case, and Labour should be far more
:09:55. > :09:58.confident about this. The British economy was ever in a Greek, Spain
:09:58. > :10:02.or Irish situation and the in coming Government deliberately
:10:02. > :10:07.scare amongered for political purposes and are reaping the
:10:07. > :10:13.negative awards. That is not to say we shouldn't eliminate the debt.
:10:13. > :10:18.I right in thinking you were around at the time of the 200 budget?
:10:18. > :10:24.Absolutely. In 2010 you forecast a surplus, you were only out about
:10:24. > :10:29.about �160 billion there abouts? The point s the public began to
:10:29. > :10:32.fear what was to come. They had ever reason to fear it. Of course
:10:32. > :10:36.for forecasts changing, but that is completely different from saying
:10:36. > :10:45.that this economy is going to completely collapse unless we
:10:45. > :10:50.retrench this fast. Reregulation? Very good idea. - Deregulation?
:10:50. > :10:55.Very good idea. Rather than increasing paternity and maternity
:10:55. > :10:59.leave, we can't afford it? There are a stack of things we can't
:10:59. > :11:03.afford it. We have to make it attractive to employ people,
:11:03. > :11:08.unemployed people have rights as well as employed people.
:11:08. > :11:12.Deregulation is an appropriate thing to do. Do you agree? Wekg
:11:12. > :11:15.more imaginative about this. I would like more part-time jobs, so
:11:15. > :11:19.second earners who feel they are shifts out of the jobs market
:11:19. > :11:23.because of childcare feel there is a place for them to go.
:11:23. > :11:29.confident are you that the Government is listening on
:11:29. > :11:31.deregulation? They are listening a little. I don't expect them to
:11:31. > :11:36.listen extensively, I'm merely a human being. But you are also a
:11:36. > :11:40.human being that gave money to the Conservative Party and to Liam Fox,
:11:40. > :11:45.we will come on to that. About the idea that you give money to the
:11:45. > :11:49.Conservative Party, to presumably promote your sense of what is good
:11:49. > :11:54.economic sense, mistake? It could be. Definitely the way that the
:11:54. > :11:58.Government is developing, and my views, difr, I'm very much of the
:11:58. > :12:01.opinion that - differ, I'm very much of the opinion that we should
:12:01. > :12:09.get the economy into a healthy state as quickly as possible. Many
:12:09. > :12:18.of the objectives that kit Kitty has, are the same. We will need dot
:12:18. > :12:22.do what we want until we get the size of the debt and state down.
:12:22. > :12:26.Do you agree that the example that Ed Milliband made about producer
:12:26. > :12:30.companies is accurate? Possibly no. John has made money in the private
:12:30. > :12:35.equity business, and I'm sure some of the things the firms he has
:12:35. > :12:43.invested in as a result have led to greater prosperity. I don't
:12:43. > :12:49.personally think it is a helpful characteristic. I do think we can
:12:49. > :12:55.have a better type of capitalism. believe in better capitalism,
:12:55. > :12:58.obviously. Clearly we want to end up with a socially acceptable, a
:12:58. > :13:02.pleasant capitalism, we need to have a strong economy. It would be
:13:02. > :13:05.nice to see growth in the economy. It would be nice to see incomes
:13:05. > :13:11.growing, then we could afford things we are now having. What we
:13:11. > :13:16.do at the moment is, the Government gets �4 in and spends �5. That is
:13:16. > :13:21.what it does. We are living better today at the expense of those who
:13:21. > :13:24.follow us. Who have to service the debt we leave behind. It is
:13:24. > :13:29.desperately immoral, and something the sooner we stop doing the better.
:13:29. > :13:35.Can I take you back to your relationship with Liam Fox and
:13:35. > :13:38.Judge Van der Werff, which was all the fare - Adam Werrity, which was
:13:39. > :13:45.all the furore recently. You invest in all sorts of companies, some
:13:45. > :13:52.good and bad. I'm right in saying at Liam Fox's behest you invested
:13:52. > :13:56.of a company of Adam Werrity? didn't invest, donated. What was
:13:56. > :14:04.the pitch? The pitch was I put money with Liam before the election,
:14:04. > :14:07.supporting his back office, all totally on the public record. That
:14:07. > :14:12.was successful in generating good policy documents and work. Liam
:14:12. > :14:17.asked me to put money in the same general direction, I was at great
:14:17. > :14:23.pains to get written assurances for what it was used for, by bother no
:14:23. > :14:28.recommend blapbs for what it was used for. You have the evidence for
:14:28. > :14:38.what the money was used for? I do. Do you feel duped? I can definitely
:14:38. > :14:43.say I was mugged. The definition of "foxed" is "discoloured with
:14:43. > :14:48.yellowish brown Steyning", I believe that is appropriate. Has it
:14:48. > :14:53.damaged you? Definitely, relatively small amount of money, gone very
:14:53. > :14:58.blikly, and being - publicly, and being wasted. If the grot figures
:14:58. > :15:02.here look less than impressive, - growth figures here look less than
:15:02. > :15:07.impressive, what hope is there for one of the lame ducks of Europe,
:15:07. > :15:12.Greece. After being offered a life Tyne from Europe, they have the
:15:12. > :15:16.temerity to announce they will vote to accept the plan, and the
:15:16. > :15:21.stringcy it will place on their country. If they reject it, will
:15:21. > :15:27.they have any choice but to leave the euro. Had we any idea the
:15:27. > :15:34.referendum would come out? No, it is a real shocker, the Euro-leaders
:15:34. > :15:38.didn't know, people in the Greek political establishment didn't know.
:15:38. > :15:43.In that case, the eurozone leaders were blind sided? Yes, and of
:15:43. > :15:49.course it was one of the central banks, if not the Central Bank of
:15:49. > :15:55.what was agreed last week, that there would be a pack Greece and
:15:55. > :15:57.all sorts of things done to finance it. And all called into question by
:15:57. > :16:03.George Papandreou's announcement. The key question is will people
:16:03. > :16:08.vote for it or not. A question I asked earlier this eerpbg to a
:16:08. > :16:15.Greek journalist, asking - morning to a Greek journalist what are the
:16:15. > :16:19.chances of success? Although people are concerned and they see a small
:16:19. > :16:23.A Greece's debt being written off and money coming in, fine on the
:16:23. > :16:26.one hand, but no prospect of growth and creation of jobs. If that
:16:26. > :16:36.doesn't change in the next few months, until we have a referendum,
:16:36. > :16:37.
:16:37. > :16:42.then the Government will find it hard to win it. It is balanced on a
:16:42. > :16:46.knife edge. The referendum might not be until next year? It might be.
:16:46. > :16:49.George Papandreou didn't say when it would be. Many people don't
:16:49. > :16:54.think it can be done for various reasons before January. What impact
:16:54. > :17:02.will it have on the markets? Before this announcement this evening,
:17:02. > :17:06.they were all ready in a pretty shaky state. We saw that in London,
:17:06. > :17:12.in Germany, Milan, this is a key one, of course, because of fears
:17:12. > :17:18.about the Italian economy, the biggest drop today,.%. More
:17:18. > :17:25.importantly, even - 3.8%. More importantly, the rate at which the
:17:25. > :17:35.Italian Government borrow money has gone over the heiror ir6% mark.
:17:35. > :17:38.
:17:38. > :17:41.Something considered - - higher mark, 6%, something considered very
:17:41. > :17:45.serious. Way back in the finance ministers' meeting in July, saying
:17:45. > :17:49.they had come up with a solution, before that George Osborne, people
:17:49. > :17:56.like him in the British Government were saying, a plaster won't do,
:17:56. > :18:01.even a one trillion euro plaster won't do. You need fundamental
:18:01. > :18:04.change, fiscal union, or moves it a properly regulated system with the
:18:04. > :18:07.European Central Bank at the core, to level out the balances between
:18:07. > :18:11.the economies of Germany and Greece's economy and others. In
:18:12. > :18:17.that sense, they can argue, already, what was agreed last week is
:18:17. > :18:23.faltering. And it really strengtheneds the case for a root
:18:23. > :18:27.and branch approach. They are also arguing that the countries outside
:18:27. > :18:31.the euro, the outer ten, need to be a key part of the process. They are
:18:31. > :18:34.hoping in the run up to the G20 meeting in France later this week,
:18:34. > :18:39.that they can continue that diplomacy. Building with countries
:18:39. > :18:48.like Sweden and Poland, the idea of a broad irconsultation.
:18:48. > :18:58.Earlier today I spoke - Broad earlier consultation.
:18:58. > :18:58.
:18:58. > :19:06.Earlier I asked Radek Sikorski, the polish Foreign Minister would
:19:06. > :19:10.Poland join the Euro-? It is a time - Euro? It is a timing issue. We
:19:10. > :19:13.are determined to join the eurozone, it makes sense for us. When the
:19:13. > :19:20.house is being tidied up and renovated, it is not the best time
:19:20. > :19:30.to move in. At what point do you think will you be ready to join?
:19:30. > :19:30.
:19:30. > :19:34.is both an economic and political decision, as I say. We don't just
:19:34. > :19:40.sympathetically look on overcoming the problems of indebtedness in
:19:40. > :19:44.Europe, as the presidency we have been part of the solutions. The six
:19:44. > :19:51.pack, had it been agreed earlier, perhaps we wouldn't be in the
:19:51. > :19:54.trouble we are in. But it is a bureaucratic name for a set of
:19:54. > :19:58.regulations that will increase financial discipline in the
:19:58. > :20:03.eurozone. We hope it will work. interested to know what it has been
:20:03. > :20:08.like handling the EU presidency, when you have these egos of Angela
:20:08. > :20:14.Merkel and Nicolas Sarkozy, how do you work with them? The presidency
:20:14. > :20:16.is not what it used to be, we are not the presidency of the European
:20:16. > :20:23.council, we have a permanent head to do that. I don't have the
:20:23. > :20:29.foreign affairs council, because we have a Brit, Cathy Ashton, who does
:20:29. > :20:34.it very ablely. It is true in Ecofin, and the Finance Minister
:20:34. > :20:40.has had his plate full, and we feel we are achieving progress. We feel
:20:40. > :20:48.that it is at times like this that we need to complete the single
:20:48. > :20:52.market. For example, in services and in transborder trade, we think
:20:52. > :20:58.that would help Europe get out of its recession. When you say you are
:20:58. > :21:03.treaty oblige to join the euro, and that was - treaty obliged to join
:21:03. > :21:07.the euro and that was settled, are there people worrying about what
:21:08. > :21:12.happened to Greece and Italy might be there for Poland and you are
:21:13. > :21:16.stirring up more trouble for Poland when you join? We will make up that
:21:16. > :21:22.argument when we are joining the euro. We think it would still make
:21:22. > :21:26.sense for us, we want to be in the group of countries, the that decide
:21:26. > :21:31.the fate of the largeest economy on earth and the largest single area.
:21:31. > :21:35.Let's talk about Britain now, it is implacably opposed to the euro.
:21:35. > :21:39.There is some sense in which Britain would be seen as the leader
:21:39. > :21:43.of the gang that is outside the euro, you are part of that gang at
:21:43. > :21:49.the moment, how do you feel about that? We are different in that,
:21:49. > :21:58.because Poland is not yet in the euro, but will be in the euro one
:21:58. > :22:02.day. Our argument is not only that the fate of the eurozone and the
:22:02. > :22:05.principles covering all of these are important for the euro. It is
:22:05. > :22:13.very important because even Britain will be affected. Our additional
:22:13. > :22:17.argument is we want to have a say in principles by which we will also
:22:18. > :22:25.one day be running our economy. you think Britain should join the
:22:25. > :22:31.euro? It is an economic argument that depends on trade flows. About
:22:31. > :22:36.half your trade is with the EU. For us it is higher. The argument from
:22:36. > :22:44.that point of view is more powerful. One of the arguments against Europe
:22:44. > :22:48.being a natural single currency area, was that there was low
:22:48. > :22:53.movement of labour. Here in Britain I think you are experiencing quite
:22:53. > :23:00.a lot of movement of labour within the EU. Including Poland. It has
:23:00. > :23:04.been good for the British economy, we hope some of my compatriots will
:23:04. > :23:10.come back. With all the turmoil, not only in the Tory backbenchers,
:23:10. > :23:15.but in the cabinet, there is a talk about referring treaties. The talk
:23:15. > :23:25.is, perhaps even making sure that borders are not open, and that
:23:25. > :23:28.
:23:28. > :23:34.thriel there is not even a free movement of - a free movement of
:23:34. > :23:38.all things within the euro. That is one of the key freedoms in Europe,
:23:38. > :23:45.the Tories under Lady Thatcher sponsored and brought to best. I
:23:45. > :23:51.would be surprised that is a fundamental feature of the single
:23:51. > :23:57.market. I don't think a country that would ban movement of Labour
:23:57. > :24:00.labour - labour could hope to remain in the single market. There
:24:01. > :24:05.are some who would like use to leave the European Union all
:24:05. > :24:12.together? I can't comment on internal British comments. We know
:24:12. > :24:16.in plilgts people are moved and motivated by - politics, people are
:24:16. > :24:18.moved and motivated by politics. For a Cathedral to lose one
:24:18. > :24:24.Clergyman might be considered unfortunate, but to lose three in
:24:24. > :24:27.less than a week begins to look careless. Today the Dean of St
:24:27. > :24:32.Paul's, Graeme Knowles, followed his colleague, Giles Fraser and
:24:32. > :24:35.another chap went out of the door in the temple. He's the one who
:24:35. > :24:41.wanted to evict the protestors camped outside, now the Bishop of
:24:41. > :24:51.London is taking charge. A protest movement that was anti-capitalism,
:24:51. > :24:52.
:24:52. > :24:57.seems to be provoking a crisis of confidence in the Church of England.
:24:57. > :25:01.From the start, the protestors in the Square Mile had the City banks
:25:01. > :25:09.in their sights. But after they were kept back by police, the area
:25:09. > :25:13.in front of St Paul's Cathedral was where they based themselves. It has
:25:13. > :25:16.become an ethical quagmire for church authorities. They have found
:25:16. > :25:23.themselves riven over issues ranging from free speech and the
:25:23. > :25:29.ethics of the market, to health and safety and even tourist revenue.
:25:29. > :25:33.find it quite difficult that you assume that I hold the same views
:25:33. > :25:38.of you, simply because I don't use the same methods of expressing my
:25:38. > :25:41.views as you. Now the Dean of St Paul's, Graeme
:25:42. > :25:51.Knowles, who was in discussions with the campers as recently as
:25:52. > :26:04.
:26:04. > :26:13.yesterday, has become the latest The All this comes after Fraser
:26:13. > :26:16.frai, Canon Chancellor of St - Giles Fraser, Canon Chancellor of
:26:16. > :26:20.St Paul's resigned. It is a car crash and the Church of England
:26:20. > :26:24.have got themselves into a real mess over this. The latest
:26:24. > :26:31.resignation is perhaps an indication of what Giles Fraser,
:26:31. > :26:36.the Canon of St Paul's all luded to, is that we are on a trajectory
:26:36. > :26:39.towards eviction, it is unstoppable. At the end of this we have seen
:26:39. > :26:49.resignations and careers ended and for no purpose whatsoever. The
:26:49. > :26:55.
:26:55. > :26:59.whole protest will move on shortly. And the only people taking any
:26:59. > :27:05.flack for it is the Church of England, it is collateral damage in
:27:05. > :27:09.a row that it didn't need to be involved in. The protestors have
:27:10. > :27:16.certainly got plenty of attention for their grievances. Surely the
:27:16. > :27:21.enemy are those in the dealing rooms, not those in the pulpit.
:27:21. > :27:27.Canon Giles Fraser stood down because he felt the stand that the
:27:27. > :27:30.Church of England would lead to violence. I respect him for doing
:27:30. > :27:33.that. The Dean had resigned today I believe because of the way the
:27:33. > :27:38.situation was handled. Again that is a situation that he, a decision
:27:38. > :27:41.he has made personally, we have to remain on the issues, this is an
:27:41. > :27:46.opportunity for the church to make a real difference to people's lives
:27:46. > :27:51.in this country and throughout the world. The Archbishop of Canterbury
:27:51. > :28:01.paid tribute to the outgoing Dean. In his earlier pronouncements he
:28:01. > :28:10.
:28:10. > :28:14.has appeared to question the ethics Safe pair of hands? The Bishop of
:28:14. > :28:19.London is caretaker of the Cathedral for the time being.
:28:19. > :28:24.not taking a softer line at all. I think that as people were saying to
:28:24. > :28:30.me yesterday morning, the campsite has to disappear at some point. It
:28:30. > :28:35.has to be scaled down. The Cathedral is prudent and sensible
:28:35. > :28:39.in exploring the legal territory. I'm told by the Chapter that they
:28:39. > :28:45.would not wish to condone the use of violence in securing any
:28:45. > :28:50.enforcements. Not the least of the challenges
:28:50. > :28:58.facing the Clergy at St Paul's, is to ensure they are all singing from
:28:58. > :29:04.the same hymn sheet. I'm joined by the writer Anne
:29:04. > :29:07.Atkins, and an Anglican minister not far from St Paul's, he was
:29:07. > :29:11.public affairs secretary for the Archbishop of London. It looks as
:29:11. > :29:14.if the Church of England is completely out of its depth and out
:29:14. > :29:19.at sea and ruled by man? certainly not because it is ruled
:29:19. > :29:25.by man. One of the several PR disasters of the last couple of
:29:25. > :29:28.weeks. You hear that St Paul's is losing �20,000 a day in tourist
:29:28. > :29:32.revenue. We are not hearing about how many millions it costs for the
:29:32. > :29:38.poor Church of England to keep this building open, with no help from
:29:38. > :29:43.the taxpayer. In Germany the taxpayers keep the churches open.
:29:43. > :29:48.The Church of England buildings are kept open and paid by the people in
:29:48. > :29:52.the pews. This is I'm not defending this, I'm just saying. Nobody is
:29:52. > :29:57.making a profit about this. I would put it to you in the 21st century
:29:57. > :30:02.the church needs to cut its cloth and get out of St Paul's?
:30:02. > :30:05.Absolutely we need to handle over to English Heritage, and it is not
:30:05. > :30:09.what Jesus talked about, and we are lumbered with these things. This is
:30:09. > :30:14.one of the many things in which the church is not really presenting its
:30:14. > :30:22.case really well. Another thing, I'm sure that most members of the
:30:22. > :30:27.latity are not aware and why should they be, is how incredibly brave
:30:27. > :30:31.and frightening it is for a middleaged Clergyman to resign his
:30:31. > :30:35.post, when he has probably earned next to nothing all his life, no
:30:35. > :30:38.savings, owned no house for his children to live in. Is it the
:30:38. > :30:42.church's fault because it hasn't delivered a clear line in this, and
:30:42. > :30:46.it looks like the money lenders are running the temple? It is a PR
:30:46. > :30:50.disaster and they have mismanaged it, that seems to be statement of
:30:50. > :30:55.the bleeding obvious. I think today has been a game change. The
:30:55. > :30:59.resignation of the Dean has put, has focused attention on the
:30:59. > :31:02.politics that is going on. Graeme Knowles has gone, and he went very
:31:02. > :31:06.suddenly and very quickly. And tomorrow we learn a few hours later
:31:06. > :31:11.that the corporation of London are going for an eviction order. I
:31:11. > :31:15.think those two things are related. I think he realised, probably
:31:15. > :31:20.through Niamhity, that he has associated himself to what would be
:31:20. > :31:22.a hawkish and aggressive policy, and he couldn't count on staying.
:31:23. > :31:28.Is there not something that says the protestors were never meant to
:31:29. > :31:33.be there in the first place? It is a legitimate protest. But actually,
:31:33. > :31:39.they should be more sensitive to the church's needs? They have been
:31:39. > :31:43.very sensitive to the church's needs. We hear from the protestors
:31:43. > :31:47.expressions like, all we are looking for is an honest and frank
:31:47. > :31:50.discussion with the Cathedral. Frankly, that is a phrase that the
:31:51. > :31:54.Cathedral should be using. There is quite a mystery here, there is a
:31:54. > :32:01.mystery as to why the Cathedral closed. I don't think it is a
:32:01. > :32:05.mystery. There is a mystery. It is a kneejerk reaction over health and
:32:05. > :32:12.safety issues before knowing what they were. If they had chosen to
:32:12. > :32:15.camp outside, suppose the protestors camped out St Helen's
:32:15. > :32:20.bishops gates, they would be eadvantagised which would have
:32:20. > :32:25.moved them on. If they were outride a Roman Catholic church, I was in
:32:25. > :32:29.Italy speaking to Italians last week, they said if this was
:32:29. > :32:33.happening in St Peter's in Rome or the steps of the Vatican, they
:32:33. > :32:37.would have been water canoned within half an hour. We fought a
:32:37. > :32:41.reformation not to be that kind of church, to be rather more engaged
:32:41. > :32:46.with the people on the doorstep than they are. I'm sure that would
:32:46. > :32:51.not be the only thing for water canon, there might have been in
:32:51. > :32:55.ministry? In Rome. They say the first thing that would happen is
:32:55. > :33:01.the water canon. Where is the ministry here, do the protestors
:33:01. > :33:04.want to be ministered to? That is not the question the church asks,
:33:04. > :33:08.this church says this is what the world needs to hear. If people are
:33:08. > :33:12.saying what would Jesus do, Jesus would have been on the side of the
:33:12. > :33:17.protestors? No he wouldn't, he would have ploughed a completely
:33:17. > :33:20.different Faroe saying you are worrying about the wrong thing.
:33:20. > :33:23.are called to be between the authority and the people. If you
:33:23. > :33:28.are talking about signals, the Archbishop of Canterbury said
:33:28. > :33:30.clearly there was a problem. It is perfectly legitimate to think that
:33:30. > :33:34.some of the protestors could be following his lead. In that case
:33:34. > :33:38.what happens in the next 48 hours. There will be evictions, what will
:33:38. > :33:42.happen? I don't know what will happen, I'm longing for somebody
:33:42. > :33:46.like Dr Williams to say, look this is Jesus message, it is that you
:33:46. > :33:49.are all off message there is something much more important to
:33:49. > :33:57.worry about than the City of London, than what we are earning, there is
:33:57. > :34:02.another life to worry about. Do you think that Rowan Williams should go
:34:02. > :34:06.there? He would be reluctant to go over the head of the bishop in
:34:06. > :34:11.charge of this. And very competently. And very competently,
:34:11. > :34:15.when the riots occurred in August, the Bishop of London was one of the
:34:15. > :34:19.few really cogent voices saying we can call for more law and order,
:34:19. > :34:25.but frankly that is obvious. What we need to understand is why these
:34:25. > :34:29.things are happening, and what we mustn't be, and the words he used
:34:29. > :34:33.is, what we mustn't be is in a sealed bubble. If there is any
:34:33. > :34:36.injuries or trouble during eviction, that will not reflect very well?
:34:36. > :34:40.will ruin the reputation of the Church of England for a generation.
:34:40. > :34:43.It will ruin the reputation for a generation? Not a generation. What
:34:43. > :34:49.is going on in the Church of England is financial meltdown. What
:34:49. > :34:57.I would love to hear is a church woman orman coming out and giving
:34:57. > :35:04.the real message of Jesus which is to do with nothing here.
:35:05. > :35:10.A Smoking detective in a reindeer patterned jumper. That is the
:35:10. > :35:15.Daneer drama The Killing, over on 20 episodes on BBC Four, half a
:35:15. > :35:20.million viewers got to know Sarah Lund slowly, as she worked on a
:35:20. > :35:24.devastating murder case with consequences for her personal life.
:35:24. > :35:29.The actor coroborated with the writer and director in shaping her
:35:29. > :35:34.character. You in a sense inhabit some of the archetypal
:35:34. > :35:37.characteristics of a male detective. Failed marriage, your problem with
:35:37. > :35:41.smoking, you turn it around and make it very much your own. You are
:35:41. > :35:44.kind of slightly all at sea when it comes to your mother, your
:35:44. > :35:54.exhusband, your partner, your son, but at work you are on top of your
:35:54. > :35:55.
:35:55. > :36:00.game all the time? We all felt that the story of the woman in a dilemma
:36:00. > :36:09.between work and family, work and love stories, you know, the whole
:36:09. > :36:13.battle between that, that I, of course, as a woman, I'm totally
:36:13. > :36:19.aware that is how it is. We thought it had not relevant and it had been
:36:19. > :36:24.told so many times. We thought we didn't want to focus, there is not
:36:24. > :36:34.really a dilemma in that for this character, her marriage, her
:36:34. > :36:48.
:36:48. > :36:53.biggest relationship is with her It is interesting now for feminism
:36:53. > :36:59.to look at that and say that is a perfectly legitimate way to run
:36:59. > :37:09.your life? I don't know if I would recommend it to anyone, men or
:37:09. > :37:09.
:37:09. > :37:16.women. I don't know if it makes you happy, but for a story, for the
:37:16. > :37:23.dramatic rules of drama, it is true. While you have quite male
:37:23. > :37:29.characteristics in terms of how you maybe approach the case, your
:37:29. > :37:37.intuition is very female. You have imbued the character with intuition,
:37:37. > :37:47.which is a feministic, it pays off? It is funny you call it intuition,
:37:47. > :38:00.
:38:00. > :38:08.This role has challenged my own views of what is feminism and what
:38:08. > :38:13.is masculine. And I must say, that it has liberated a lot of my own
:38:13. > :38:20.very fixed thoughts about which is which. Because I don't know, it is
:38:20. > :38:26.a gut feeling or intuition, as you say, is that feminine or masculine
:38:26. > :38:30.trait? I find that...Maybe It is just a good detective. Yeah. I love
:38:30. > :38:35.the way the camera focuses on your face, you give so little away. Is
:38:35. > :38:43.that what you wanted to do, less is more in the way to interpret the
:38:43. > :38:46.character? We decided earlier on that was our goal, to create this
:38:46. > :38:56.very secretive character. Where you didn't reveal everything. I think
:38:56. > :39:11.
:39:11. > :39:16.we both found that it was more I actually remember at the wrap up
:39:16. > :39:23.party, at the end of the 20 episodes, we had a goodbye party,
:39:23. > :39:30.and the writer came up to me and said, I think that around episode
:39:30. > :39:36.18, I think we got the character, she was there. Which was wonderful,
:39:37. > :39:42.of course, I knew what I meant. After 18 episodes she was almost
:39:42. > :39:46.striped of everything. We are about to see series two of The Killing,
:39:47. > :39:52.not 20 episodes but ten. You have been sent to a small town as a
:39:52. > :39:56.passport inspector, and then you're called back. When you started
:39:56. > :40:02.shooting this, did you know what was going to happen when you were
:40:02. > :40:08.called back? Like we always work, I only had that first script that we
:40:08. > :40:13.were working on. Because nothing else was written. But, of course, I
:40:13. > :40:23.always have the writer telling about the bigger lines. But I don't
:40:23. > :40:28.know where the story is going, and I'm actually working on the third
:40:28. > :40:32.season now. I don't know where it is going. And presumably
:40:32. > :40:37.singlehandedly you have turned round the Faroe Isles economy by
:40:37. > :40:42.that jumper? I hope, they need it, like the rest of us. Thank you very
:40:42. > :40:46.much indeed. Is the world a violent place?
:40:46. > :40:50.Almost certainly, yes. A position reinforced by the images that flash
:40:50. > :40:55.daily on to our TV and computer screens from around the world. Is
:40:55. > :40:59.it a lot less violent than it was, despite the of the repeated
:40:59. > :41:03.assertion that the 20th century was the bloodiest in history. Steven
:41:03. > :41:07.Pinker argues in his new book, The Better Angels of Nature, after a
:41:07. > :41:11.phrase by Abraham Lincoln, that despite world wars, civil wars,
:41:11. > :41:15.invasions and long-running conflicts, a range of cultural,
:41:15. > :41:19.social and scientific changes, the rise of empathy and reason, have
:41:19. > :41:24.ensured that the world has become a less violent place.
:41:24. > :41:29.Steven Pinker, first of all, do people regard or recoil from
:41:29. > :41:32.violence more now because of philosophical issues, or simply
:41:33. > :41:38.because of pragmatic issues. For example, if someone was to set off
:41:38. > :41:41.a nuclear bomb a lot of us would not be here again, is it
:41:41. > :41:47.pragmatisim or philosophical? think it is a bit of each. I think
:41:47. > :41:52.the theory that we owe the theory of peace to of the last six decades
:41:52. > :41:57.to the nuclear bomb I think is wrong. For one thing, there was
:41:57. > :42:01.plenty of memory from World War II, that good old fashioned tanks and
:42:01. > :42:05.artillery and good old aerial bombardment could do so much damage
:42:05. > :42:11.that nobody wanted a rematch some time soon. Because the nuclear bomb
:42:11. > :42:15.is so useless as a tactic in war, other than deterring all out
:42:15. > :42:21.annihilation, that it was almost taken off the table as a live
:42:21. > :42:26.option. That is why so often in the last decade a non-nuclear power as
:42:26. > :42:31.defied a nuclear one. Argentina knew Britain wouldn't retaliate
:42:31. > :42:36.with a nuclear strike. Isn't part of the reason people are less
:42:36. > :42:41.depreposed to violence is we are a much more interconnected world, and
:42:41. > :42:45.it is not just faceless masses being mown down? I think so, it is
:42:45. > :42:51.not a coincidence that the enlightenment, such as the
:42:51. > :42:56.abolition of slavery, and things like disemboweling and breaking on
:42:56. > :43:02.the wheel, came after an enormous expansion of book publishing,
:43:02. > :43:07.travel, music, cosmopolitan cities, the advances the last 60 year, the
:43:07. > :43:11.civil rights he have illusion, the women's rights he have illusion,
:43:11. > :43:16.the electronic global village. It is hard to extol the buetyo of war
:43:16. > :43:21.when you have images of a naked girl running from a napalm attack
:43:21. > :43:23.and the reality of war is brought home to you. You are in the habit
:43:24. > :43:28.of seeing the world from other people's points of view. Imagining
:43:28. > :43:34.what it is like to be someone else, by reading their words and history
:43:34. > :43:38.and memoirs. That is interesting, that doesn't, that would not
:43:38. > :43:42.necessary - necessarily be the case when it comes to the war in the
:43:42. > :43:47.Balkans, people were seeing their neighbours, and in Kosovo, people,
:43:47. > :43:53.their neighbours they were mowing them down. There was a senseless
:43:53. > :43:57.violence and genocidal violence. That in itself, it may be more
:43:57. > :44:01.compartmentalised, but there is no improvment in human nature is
:44:01. > :44:05.there? I don't think there was an improvement of human nature, we are
:44:05. > :44:10.born violent and always have been, it is different aspects of human
:44:10. > :44:16.nature engaged by the world. Human nature comprises a lot of ugly
:44:16. > :44:23.motives, revenge and tribunalism, but motives like empathy, self-
:44:23. > :44:26.control and reason. It is which one of those, the better angels, or the
:44:26. > :44:29.inner demons, gets engaged in the world we live in. In violence and
:44:29. > :44:39.war, we are talking about the economy tonight. Do you, you seem
:44:39. > :44:40.
:44:40. > :44:46.to say in your book that we generally unjustifiably unpest
:44:47. > :44:53.mistic, we are move glass half full rather than empty. At the very
:44:53. > :44:57.least we need to show grattaid for what we have done right, -
:44:57. > :45:01.gratitude for what we have done right. The world of the journalism
:45:01. > :45:05.is biased, there is enough violence to fill the news, news is full of
:45:05. > :45:09.things that go bang and people get hurt. When you have millions dying
:45:09. > :45:17.peacefully from Alzheimer's dae disease, cancer, heart attacks, it
:45:17. > :45:20.is not cameras filming those deaths, violence can be distorted by
:45:20. > :45:26.horrific images on the news. suggest reasons to be cheerful
:45:26. > :45:29.rather than reasons not to be unhappy? Among other things the
:45:29. > :45:36.threat of global nuclear annihilation has been taken away.
:45:36. > :45:41.Which is what many of us grew up with. In a modern society we have a
:45:41. > :45:44.30th chance of being murdered as our medieval ancestors. Women,
:45:44. > :45:50.racial minorities and gay people no longer have the threat of violence
:45:50. > :45:56.in the home and streets. And we have abolished barbaric practices
:45:56. > :46:02.like human sacrifices and prisons. No more human sacrifice! Tomorrow
:46:02. > :46:12.morning's front pages, in the Telegraph, St Paul's branded a
:46:12. > :46:31.
:46:31. > :46:41.That's all from Newsnight tonight, if you have been out this
:46:41. > :47:03.
:47:03. > :47:07.Hallowe'en, hope you did well. Good Good evening. Some heavy rain
:47:07. > :47:10.tonight, pushing from west to east. The rain will gradually ease in the
:47:10. > :47:13.morning. Producing cloudy and damp start for eastern England, further
:47:13. > :47:17.west heavy showers around, increasing amounts of sunshine.
:47:17. > :47:20.Showers decay into the afternoon. It is looking like a pleasant start
:47:20. > :47:24.to November for many. In northern England light winds, longer spells
:47:24. > :47:28.of sunshine. Feeling warmer than today. Temperatures on the face of
:47:28. > :47:32.it a few degrees down. The far south-east corner, including Sussex
:47:32. > :47:37.and Kent may take all day for the skies to clear, and to see a little
:47:37. > :47:40.bit of sunshine. Most low cloudy throughout, rain heavy for a time
:47:40. > :47:43.but easing. Into the south west and through Wales the morning showers,
:47:43. > :47:47.of course, which could be heavy, will gradually said one or two into
:47:47. > :47:51.the second half of the day. Most dry and bright. Same too in
:47:51. > :47:55.Northern Ireland, any early showers here will disappear, for most it
:47:55. > :47:58.will be a predominantly dry and sunny day. Big improvements on
:47:58. > :48:08.Monday's weather. Still showers in North West Scotland, the rest of
:48:08. > :48:19.