:00:08. > :00:12.The cliche about the eurocrisis is that the politicians responsible
:00:12. > :00:16.have been kicking the can down the road. Today the road has just about
:00:16. > :00:19.run out. Europe's most comical Prime
:00:19. > :00:23.Minister is quitting the stage in favour of a Government of
:00:23. > :00:27.technocrats. One after another, the paymasters of Europe impose
:00:27. > :00:30.Governments, but where does that leave European democracy? We show
:00:30. > :00:34.the latest victim of the News of the World surveillance, what was
:00:34. > :00:39.done to him. It is the banality of evil, isn't
:00:40. > :00:44.it. It is really pathetic. And at the same time, kind of creepy.
:00:44. > :00:48.are you finding it? She was happy enough to get the job, but can the
:00:48. > :00:52.Home Secretary hang on to it? This pill promises to enhance the
:00:52. > :00:56.way your brain works. We will try it. Does our increasing knowledge
:00:56. > :01:06.of how the organ functions mean we should all be able to take drugs
:01:06. > :01:09.
:01:09. > :01:13.It was obviously expecting too much to hope that the mere removal from
:01:13. > :01:17.the scene of a man with an orange face and improbable hair, would
:01:17. > :01:20.salvage the biggest political project in Europe. The news that
:01:20. > :01:24.Silvio Berlusconi will quit the Italian Prime Ministership to spend
:01:24. > :01:29.more time at his very tasteful parties, did nothing to make it
:01:29. > :01:32.cheaper for his indebted country to borrow money. The Greeks, meanwhile,
:01:33. > :01:35.can't agree who should be their new Prime Minister. Underlying
:01:35. > :01:45.everything is the question can unelected Governments of the kind
:01:45. > :02:00.
:02:00. > :02:06.now being imposed, do any better at Today it was Italy's turn to get
:02:06. > :02:09.squeezed by the bond market monster. 24 hours after Silvio Berlusconi
:02:09. > :02:14.finally succumbed to its embrace, Italy's lending power was knocked
:02:14. > :02:21.for six. This morning, a key link in the global trading system, the
:02:21. > :02:31.brokerage film, LCH.Clearnet, raised the collateral needed to
:02:31. > :02:31.
:02:32. > :02:37.trade Italy's debt. Suddenly the third-biggest economy in the Europe
:02:37. > :02:42.was breaching 7%. Breaching the 7% mark was put Portugal and Ireland
:02:42. > :02:47.and Greece into bailout territory. Very few people are buying Italian
:02:47. > :02:51.debt, save the ECB. There are lots of people selling Italian debt, or
:02:51. > :02:57.who want to sell Italian debt. One of the problems with Italian debt
:02:57. > :03:00.is everybody, every investor in the world, almost has got some Italian
:03:00. > :03:04.exposure. The elected Governments of southern Europe are finding out
:03:04. > :03:09.not just that they are powerless in the face of the bond market, but
:03:09. > :03:15.that other elected Governments, central banks, can enrage the
:03:15. > :03:18.monster, simply by doing nothing to help. Last Friday, I asked
:03:18. > :03:25.President Sarkozy whether it was just for France and Germany to be
:03:25. > :03:29.trying to change the Governments of Greece and Italy? He took offence,
:03:30. > :03:39.saying we, islanders, misunderstood the complexties of Europe. But it
:03:39. > :03:42.has come to pass that both of these Governments have fallen. In Greece
:03:42. > :03:46.today, the Prime Minister said farewell. Nobody replaced him.
:03:46. > :03:52.Coalition talks stalled. It scarcely matters, nobody in Greece
:03:52. > :03:57.can change the economic policy of Greece at the ballot box. But
:03:57. > :04:01.Greece, at least, has a bailout plan.
:04:01. > :04:06.Italy is too big to bail. Only the European Central Bank, buying its
:04:06. > :04:11.debt, is keeping it solvent. But the ECB has been stepping back from
:04:11. > :04:16.supporting Italy. In Italy, there probably needs to be very fast
:04:16. > :04:23.approval of some of the reforms. Maybe the promise of Berlusconi to
:04:23. > :04:27.resign needs to be put into action more quickly. But essentially,
:04:27. > :04:33.Italy needs to prove that it is credible on its own. And then, you
:04:33. > :04:40.might, or might not have, a more forceful ECB action, to try to put
:04:40. > :04:44.a floor on the market here. To save Italy from the bond market's hairy
:04:44. > :04:48.fist would need about one trillion euros. The original plan was to
:04:48. > :04:52.raise it through a special fund, the EFSF, but nobody will lend to
:04:52. > :04:55.that. The G20 turned to the IMF, but raising extra money there is
:04:55. > :05:01.politically hard to do, so it may have to be the European Central
:05:01. > :05:06.Bank that sorts this out. But it is a nail-biter. The European Central
:05:06. > :05:09.Bank has to benefit - has the benefit of flexibility, it doesn't
:05:09. > :05:14.have to go to national parliaments to buy a lot of Government bonds. A
:05:14. > :05:18.lot of people are calling for it to step in. It would make sense, in
:05:18. > :05:22.one way, however that is when politics kick in. The Germans, in
:05:22. > :05:26.particular, are very sensitive about the ECB playing, effectively,
:05:26. > :05:31.a role which should be shouldered by national Governments. That was
:05:31. > :05:37.the dilemma the leaders faced in Brussels, now, though the dilemma
:05:37. > :05:40.is the same, there is, two weeks on, one less singer in the euro band.
:05:40. > :05:44.Mr Berlusconi will soon vacate office too. For nearly two years
:05:44. > :05:48.now, it has been obvious that northern Europe would have to sees
:05:48. > :05:52.control of southern Europe's finances to justify a bailout.
:05:52. > :05:56.Those who imagined it would be done gently imagined wrong. We knew that
:05:56. > :06:02.with joining the euro, you surrendered sovereignity, few
:06:02. > :06:05.realised how much democracy you surrendered as well. A break-up of
:06:05. > :06:08.the eurozone would be extremely costly, it would come with huge
:06:08. > :06:11.political cost and a huge economic cost, not only for Europe, but
:06:11. > :06:17.probably for the world economy. Including, of course, Britain
:06:17. > :06:21.itself. But at the end of the day, the choice may be between that and
:06:21. > :06:25.the southern member-states in the eurozone, accepting a decade of
:06:25. > :06:33.austerity measures, imposed by people sitting in Frankfurt,
:06:33. > :06:37.Brussels and Berlin. You can't kill the bond market, but
:06:37. > :06:40.you can pacify it, to put the financial monster back into its box,
:06:41. > :06:46.Europe has to start acting like one country, and show the periphery
:06:46. > :06:54.some tough love. It wasn't the aeroplanes, it was beauty killed
:06:54. > :06:58.the beast. Now to try to make sense of this, from Washington we're
:06:58. > :07:01.joined by a former IMF official, brought back to the Italian
:07:01. > :07:10.Government in 2001, to help clear up a previous mess. With us here in
:07:10. > :07:14.the studio are the editor of the economist, and the Greek economist.
:07:14. > :07:19.Is Berlusconi's departure going to solve the Italian problem? I don't
:07:19. > :07:22.think it will solve it by itselfful you can see everything today and
:07:22. > :07:26.what Paul just said, everything is in bad way. His going is a step
:07:26. > :07:31.forward. He is a man who has singularly failed to do anything,
:07:31. > :07:36.to really push Italy forward. He failed in his attempts to try to
:07:36. > :07:40.persuade the other Europeans that he had an answer to Italy's
:07:40. > :07:43.problems. What is it that technocrats, such as yourself, can
:07:43. > :07:52.achieve, that a democratically elected Prime Minister, like Mr
:07:52. > :07:58.Berlusconi and his Government, can't do? Well, probably the main
:07:58. > :08:02.point is knowledge. A take know crate would come with the basic
:08:02. > :08:06.knowledge of how - technocrat would come with a basic knowledge of how
:08:06. > :08:13.the market works, while politicians very often dream of the way that
:08:13. > :08:18.the market works. So the basic difference would be knowledge. The
:08:18. > :08:21.technocrat can bring more knowledge than the politician, they don't
:08:21. > :08:26.have that. Whether they can implement this knowledge is a
:08:26. > :08:31.different story. So what sort of thing does a politician not dare to
:08:31. > :08:35.do that a technocrat does dare contemplate? Well, up to now, you
:08:35. > :08:41.know, the solution to the Italian problems were rather obvious to
:08:41. > :08:48.many people. The situation was not disastrous, Italy has had a public
:08:48. > :08:54.debt of 120% for almost 20 years now without major difficulty. But
:08:54. > :08:57.the international situation changed, and having 120% made it a little
:08:57. > :09:02.bit heavier, and required some reaction on the part of the
:09:02. > :09:05.politicians. Reaction in the modification of the financial, of
:09:05. > :09:09.the labour market, which almost makes it impossible to change
:09:09. > :09:14.anything in Italy. If the Government want to fire somebody
:09:14. > :09:16.they can't do it. So the implication of this is that
:09:16. > :09:21.democratic Governments, because they rely upon the votes of the
:09:21. > :09:25.people, are incapable of solving the sort of challenges that both
:09:25. > :09:29.Greece and Italy are faced with, as a consequence of membership of the
:09:29. > :09:33.euro? It is quite incredible to say. That it is totally unacceptable.
:09:33. > :09:41.What we have got here is the bond market, not only dk Tateing policy,
:09:41. > :09:45.but now pointing - dictating policy, but pointing politicians in that
:09:45. > :09:49.way. The democratic will of people is perfectly capable of solving a
:09:49. > :09:53.crisis they should be given a chance to be heard. What do you
:09:53. > :09:57.make of the argument? I don't entirely agree. I do agree Europe
:09:57. > :10:00.last this huge democracy problem I do agree that what's going to
:10:00. > :10:04.happen is fairly soon the technocrats, be it Mario Monti in
:10:04. > :10:07.Italy, or whatever, will fairly soon have to go to the people.
:10:07. > :10:12.Because nothing matters without democratic legitimacy. One of the
:10:12. > :10:17.problems is the democratic leaders have failed. Berlusconi was man
:10:17. > :10:22.with a big democratic mandate, yet he managed to run a place that grew
:10:22. > :10:25.slower than anywhere, other than Zimbabwe and Haiti. That is not a
:10:25. > :10:28.good record. Let's see why democratic leaders have failed.
:10:28. > :10:32.They have failed because they have not been listening to their own
:10:32. > :10:35.people, but the dictates of the markets, the bond markets and
:10:35. > :10:38.various financial institutions. They have been taking measures
:10:38. > :10:42.against their own people, and manifesto against the interests of
:10:42. > :10:46.the economy itself. They have been adopting austerity measures which
:10:46. > :10:51.has made the crisis worst. These measures have been dictated by the
:10:51. > :10:56.IMF and other multilateral organisations, which appear as the
:10:56. > :11:00.know-all technocrats and have the wisdom, and have created a terrible
:11:00. > :11:03.mess in Europe. You're right about half of it, pushing austerity
:11:03. > :11:07.through in some places was a mistake. What you are wrong about
:11:07. > :11:12.is a lot of the things that the IMF have been trying to force. All the
:11:12. > :11:15.things to do with unleashing growth, those are the things which wouldn't
:11:15. > :11:20.have made any difference to what you are just talking about. That is
:11:20. > :11:23.about opening up economies, making them grow faster, it is not
:11:23. > :11:30.impingeing austerity. You were talking about what you would have
:11:30. > :11:34.to do, for example, about labour conditions, mobility of labour,
:11:35. > :11:38.wage rates and other ways of making the Italian economy competitive
:11:38. > :11:43.again, how does a Government of technocrats, and unelected
:11:43. > :11:47.Government, impose that? Obviously it can't impose it, but it can do a
:11:47. > :11:51.better job of informing people of what needs to be done. I think that
:11:51. > :11:54.was the problem. You know, the Italians have been told for many,
:11:54. > :12:00.many years that there was no problem, nothing needed to be done,
:12:00. > :12:07.when the situation was progressively getting worse. So if
:12:07. > :12:14.you have this kind of Government then sooner or later you get in
:12:14. > :12:16.trouble. The technical people would know better, and would say the
:12:16. > :12:20.consequences and what would happen continuing with the policies.
:12:20. > :12:23.Whether the people would allow them to make the changes is another
:12:23. > :12:28.story. The technocrat such as yourself and we will see in Italy
:12:28. > :12:35.now, is this essentially a mechanic, the car is being driven by somebody
:12:35. > :12:38.else. It is being driven in Germany or on the bond markets? The bond
:12:38. > :12:42.market does not exist. They exist that people want to invest, people
:12:42. > :12:48.like me or you or somebody else. This idea that there is a bond
:12:48. > :12:52.market, like an individual acting in some strange way, this I don't
:12:52. > :12:58.buy that. People will buy bonds if they think that they will be repaid
:12:58. > :13:04.at some point. This is the point. If you lose confidence in a country,
:13:04. > :13:07.then sooner or later you get some particular consequences. I'm very
:13:07. > :13:12.familiar with the Argentine situation, I should make a quick
:13:12. > :13:19.point about that. Then Argentina went into trouble in 2001, went
:13:19. > :13:25.into trouble with a debt to GDP ratio that was 50% of GDP, and a
:13:25. > :13:29.deficit that was about 3%. But at some point the people were lending
:13:29. > :13:34.money to the country, and they lost confidence, overnight the interest
:13:34. > :13:38.rate went up by 2,000 base points. The country got in trouble. It is
:13:38. > :13:41.not a question of the bond marketing reacting in some strange
:13:41. > :13:44.way. It is a question of the country not doing what they should
:13:44. > :13:48.do. Specifically in the context of Europe, this is a crisis that has
:13:48. > :13:52.gone from one thing to another. It is a monetary crisis, a banking
:13:52. > :13:59.crisis, this is in danger, is it not, of becoming a political crisis.
:13:59. > :14:01.The danger here, surely, is that the e treems capitalise - extremes
:14:01. > :14:05.capitalise when there is no democratically legitimate
:14:05. > :14:09.Government in a country, what do you think? I think the euro has
:14:09. > :14:13.failed, it is very clear the euro has fail. There are deep problems
:14:13. > :14:17.of economy in Europe, very clearly. But there are also problems of
:14:17. > :14:20.policy now. There are problems of national sovereignty, that has
:14:20. > :14:24.transgressed across the periphery, and problems of democracy. In that
:14:24. > :14:28.context, business as normal, life as normal is impossible. What is
:14:28. > :14:32.happening now across the periphery of Europe is a groundswell of anger.
:14:32. > :14:37.Greece is the canary in the mine when it comes to this. Greece is
:14:37. > :14:41.becoming fast ungovernable, that is because of policies and measures
:14:42. > :14:47.introduced by so-called technocrats which were manifesto wrong. The
:14:47. > :14:50.measures introduced in 2010, by the IMF, in the EU, were manifesto
:14:50. > :14:54.incorrect, in terms of their focus, and in terms of what they brought
:14:54. > :14:58.to the economy. What do you make of the political dangers? I agree very
:14:58. > :15:03.much with the idea that it plays to the extremes. If you have any
:15:03. > :15:06.situation where people feel their views are not being represented,
:15:06. > :15:09.you are bound to see things changing. You could see that
:15:09. > :15:13.changing in Germany. Germany you have a population who are very
:15:13. > :15:17.angry about the euro, you have no parties that actually represent
:15:17. > :15:20.that. That is always f you have that degree of disconnect, and you
:15:20. > :15:25.could argue you are saying a little bit p America in a completely
:15:25. > :15:30.different way. We are all standing apart from this, because we are not
:15:30. > :15:34.part of the euro, although we will suffer and are suffering in a
:15:34. > :15:39.little while. If you could fix it, what would you do? From a British
:15:39. > :15:43.point of view? If you were running the euro now, what would you do?
:15:43. > :15:46.The one big bazooka sat there throughout the thing, is the
:15:46. > :15:50.European Central Bank. They have always been the people who could
:15:50. > :15:53.create a firewall around Italy and Spain. And their reluctance to do
:15:54. > :15:57.so has been partly because of German pressure, but they have two
:15:57. > :16:02.jobs. One is to keep our money, but the other is to keep the whole
:16:02. > :16:07.system going. There, I think, in the end, it comes down to the ECB.
:16:07. > :16:11.Why are you shaking your head? think the ECB can provide liquidity,
:16:11. > :16:17.it will appear in the markets tomorrow and buy a lot of Italian
:16:17. > :16:21.bonds. It can do and do that repeatedly. The problem is a
:16:21. > :16:27.problem of austerity, and an economy that doesn't work. That
:16:27. > :16:32.cannot be solved by the ECB. I doubt this problem can be solved
:16:32. > :16:35.within the confines of the European monetary European. You think the
:16:35. > :16:39.euro has failed? Yes, I think several countries on the periphery
:16:39. > :16:42.will be forced to exit. Then there will be some dramatic
:16:42. > :16:46.transformation at the core, break of it into two, or some other
:16:46. > :16:52.arrangement. In the current form, it is unsustainable t will not be
:16:52. > :16:57.sustained. An immensely wealthy youngish man
:16:57. > :16:59.is believed to have arrived in this country tonight. It is not entirely
:16:59. > :17:02.pleasure. James Murdoch is before the Parliamentary Committee
:17:02. > :17:07.investigating how his newspaper, the News of the World, hacked into
:17:07. > :17:12.the phones of all in Sunday dree in pursuit of splash stories. Over the
:17:12. > :17:16.last two nights, if you have been watching, you will have seen a
:17:16. > :17:21.private detective talking about how he was hired, after the phone
:17:21. > :17:28.hacking scandal had begun, to spy on targets for the paper. This
:17:28. > :17:32.report contains flash photo-y. After we revealed the astonishing
:17:32. > :17:38.extent of News of the World surveillance last night, we can
:17:39. > :17:43.show more surveillance taken by the private detective, Derek Webb. Here
:17:43. > :17:49.is television presenter, Richard Madeley, blissfully unaware's being
:17:49. > :17:53.watched. In these images he's with his family in London. My then
:17:53. > :17:56.teenage daughter and her teenage boyfriend are in the centre of
:17:56. > :18:01.these shots, that is pretty repulsive, that some creepy private
:18:01. > :18:04.detective is spying on my daughter, as well as on me. That's just so
:18:04. > :18:09.yuky. I think at a visceral level, we know when there is something
:18:09. > :18:13.wrong, we know when somebody is behaving badly or a corporation is
:18:13. > :18:18.behaving badly, we don't know or need to know if it is legal or not,
:18:18. > :18:23.we know it is wrong. To follow me for no good reason, I have racked
:18:24. > :18:29.my brains for what I was doing in 2006, I was living an ordinary life,
:18:29. > :18:36.I have no skeletons in my closet, to be pursued for five days, that
:18:36. > :18:41.phrase, the banality of evil, it is creepy. Derek Webb would video tape
:18:41. > :18:46.News of the World targets. He would pass it on to journalists at News
:18:46. > :18:48.of the World. Some of these tapes underpinned exclusive, many of the
:18:48. > :18:52.surveillance jobs revealed little more than people going about their
:18:52. > :18:56.every day lives. Take this family hole day, for example, the private
:18:56. > :19:00.detective was dispatched to the West Country, for den tais in
:19:00. > :19:05.spring 2006, to watch a journalist, called Anna Fazackerley, the
:19:05. > :19:09.newspaper thought she was having an affair with Boris Johnson. Here she
:19:09. > :19:17.is on the beach with her family, she's on the left with her brother.
:19:17. > :19:22.She was on holiday with her mum and basically doing a lot of walking,
:19:22. > :19:29.round Tintagel and various other places. I spent a week down there,
:19:29. > :19:35.probably over a week, they hired a car for me. Did it result in
:19:35. > :19:40.anything or not? It didn't. I was unaware that there was also people
:19:40. > :19:44.following Boris Johnson in London. At the same time. They were hired
:19:44. > :19:49.by News of the World? Yes, but I wasn't aware of it. If Boris
:19:49. > :19:52.Johnson thought a bike would amount to counter surveillance, he was
:19:52. > :19:59.wrong. They supplied a bike to me, from News of the World building,
:19:59. > :20:04.they brought a bike out to me, I parked my car and followed Boris
:20:04. > :20:08.Johnson around on a bike. Another cabinet minister was targeted in
:20:08. > :20:14.2004, Home Secretary, David Blunkett, was having an affair with
:20:14. > :20:20.the publisher of the Spectator Magazine. I was asked to follow
:20:20. > :20:30.Kimberly Quin around, I followed her around for something like 17-20
:20:30. > :20:30.
:20:30. > :20:35.continuous days. On one particular day she loaded the child in the car,
:20:35. > :20:38.she drove to Kensington and parked nearby David Blunkett, they got
:20:38. > :20:43.photographers down there and photographers took photographs on
:20:43. > :20:49.the doorstep of David Blunkett and her. But that made big news? That
:20:49. > :20:52.was big news, yes. That was big news. Newsnight has obtained copies
:20:52. > :20:57.of News of the World financial records, confirming that Derek Webb
:20:57. > :21:04.was paid for surveillance by the News of the World. In January 2004,
:21:04. > :21:09.they paid �1,050 for his surveillance of Stephen Twigg MP,
:21:09. > :21:14.�300 for Charles Clarke, and �1,25 for surveillance of Maxine Carr,
:21:14. > :21:20.the former parter of owe ham murderer, Ian Huntley. Derek Webb
:21:20. > :21:25.said after the phone hacking scandal emerged, with the jailing
:21:25. > :21:31.of Glenn Mulcaire in 200, the documents became less specific.
:21:31. > :21:34.This one simply says Brompton Watch. They knew I was doing the work,
:21:34. > :21:40.they were very pleased with the work I was doing. It was leading to
:21:40. > :21:47.headlines? Yes. So I was doing this work for them. I was aware they
:21:47. > :21:52.knew about it, because I was being fed back by journalist, different
:21:52. > :21:57.journalists saying excellent work, excellent work and they couldn't
:21:57. > :22:00.have done it without me. It seems the new management at News
:22:00. > :22:04.International are clear to put clean water between them and the
:22:04. > :22:09.past. On Monday they said it was wrong to use surveillance on
:22:09. > :22:12.lawyers acting for phone hacking victims. What would your answer to
:22:12. > :22:15.them be, if they say to you now, we don't want anything to do with that
:22:15. > :22:19.eight or nine years of work you did for us, it was a mistake, we
:22:19. > :22:25.shouldn't have got you to do it. We are a little bit embarrassed with b
:22:25. > :22:29.it, what would you say to that? would be very surprised. I don't
:22:29. > :22:34.think they were embarrassed by it. They were commissioning it? They
:22:35. > :22:37.were commissioning it and being pleased with the work. The most
:22:37. > :22:40.controversial surveillance jobs were on lawyers trying to sue News
:22:40. > :22:44.of the World. It is worth noting one leading MP on the select
:22:44. > :22:47.committee, Tom Watson, was also watched. The circumstances around
:22:47. > :22:52.these cases will be on a long list of tough questions in parliament
:22:52. > :22:56.tomorrow for James Murdoch. The Home Secretary is still in her
:22:56. > :23:00.job tonight, David Cameron says she has his complete support, despite
:23:00. > :23:08.the fact that the head of the Border Force, whom she suspended,
:23:08. > :23:12.says she misled parliament Select Committee admits she has no idea
:23:12. > :23:17.how many undesirables came into Britain this summer but says it is
:23:17. > :23:21.not her fault. The opposition are making hay over the Government
:23:21. > :23:24.embarrassment, but they haven't drawn blood yet. What do we know
:23:25. > :23:27.that we didn't yesterday? Great deal of parliamentary time was
:23:28. > :23:31.expended on it today, it didn't just dominate Prime Minister's
:23:31. > :23:34.Questions, it was a three-hour debate initiated by the Labour
:23:34. > :23:38.Party. Having sat through every minute of it, I'm none the wiser.
:23:38. > :23:41.We have two essentially contradictory explanations for why
:23:41. > :23:45.these border controls were eased for non-unions, Theresa May says
:23:46. > :23:50.there was a pilot scheme for Europeans, and Brodie Clark, the
:23:50. > :23:54.head of the Border Force exceeded his authority, he says he didn't.
:23:54. > :23:58.Labour, having found such a poisonous issue in Government, seem
:23:58. > :24:03.to be relishing turning the tables. You talked about drawing fresh
:24:03. > :24:06.blood, I don't think they did. she safe in her job? That could
:24:06. > :24:11.depend on Brodie Clark. By resigning he has given himself the
:24:11. > :24:15.freedom to speak out. He will exercise that freedom next week
:24:15. > :24:19.before the home affairs select commity. If no new facts emerge
:24:19. > :24:22.that, we will have to wait until January, when the biggest of three
:24:22. > :24:28.inquiry is due to report. That could ease the pressure. A question
:24:28. > :24:31.has been raised tonight, that's whether they both might be right.
:24:31. > :24:35.Labour's last immigration minister says there was discretion exercised
:24:35. > :24:39.by the Border Agency when Labour was in Government. So Mr Clarke
:24:39. > :24:42.could have thought he was using existing discretion, tacitly
:24:42. > :24:46.approved by the Home Office, nothing to do with Mrs May's pilot.
:24:46. > :24:53.If that is the case, it raises the whole relationship between
:24:53. > :24:57.departments and agencies, and how they are held to account. It isth
:24:57. > :25:01.has happened to all of us. How many times, for even a fleeting moment,
:25:01. > :25:04.have you kicked yourself and wondered if only you had thought of
:25:04. > :25:08.that. If only, in other words, one's brain worked just a little
:25:08. > :25:13.bit better, or faster. As scientists come to understand more
:25:13. > :25:19.about how the brain works, is it conceivable that medicine could
:25:20. > :25:23.make that enhance pt possible. We have all had to endure drunks and
:25:23. > :25:33.dope smokers who think they are being profound, when they are off
:25:33. > :25:52.
:25:52. > :25:58.their heads. Suppose a pill could Our brain is unique. It is the most
:25:58. > :26:04.complex organ in the human body. It is 100 billion nerve cells,
:26:04. > :26:10.connecting to shape our memories, thoughts and aspirations. Most of
:26:10. > :26:16.us want to reach our true potential, now, science and technology are
:26:16. > :26:26.offering to take us beyond human. Drugs and implants to turbo charge
:26:26. > :26:34.
:26:34. > :26:37.our brains. But just how far do we You are a fighter pilot on a long
:26:37. > :26:43.demanding mission. Your life and that of your colleagues depends on
:26:43. > :26:53.you being awake and alert all the time. There are drugs you can take
:26:53. > :26:54.
:26:54. > :26:58.to keep you focused. Would you take them? This is one of those drugs,
:26:58. > :27:03.Medvedev, it is normally glrb midazolam, it is normally
:27:03. > :27:08.prescribed for those who need wakefulness. The military have
:27:08. > :27:12.tested toth to see if it improves performance. There is an
:27:12. > :27:15.underground set of people taking it as a brain booster, because they
:27:15. > :27:20.think it improves their cognitive powers. I have come to the
:27:20. > :27:28.university for mind sciences and in a moment I will try it for myself.
:27:29. > :27:33.I have taken midazolam a few times, - primarily for the ability to
:27:33. > :27:41.increase wakefulness and concentrate and stay awake for
:27:41. > :27:45.extended for extended periods of time, 30 hours. Pycroft is in his
:27:45. > :27:49.second year at Oxford University, he sees no difference between the
:27:49. > :27:54.drug and caffeine. He acknowledges sourcing the drugs is far risker,
:27:54. > :28:02.he's getting hold of them over the Internet. If I was going to obtain
:28:02. > :28:06.it, there are a variety of websites on-line which one can access and
:28:06. > :28:11.purchase pills or powered form and have them delivered to one's
:28:11. > :28:20.doorstep. The reality is it is pretty easy for someone with a
:28:20. > :28:27.credit card or a bit of cash to go and obtain some of these compounds
:28:27. > :28:32.Anders Sandberg has a background in computing and neuroscience, he's
:28:32. > :28:37.IRA searcher at Oxford University's future and humanity institute. He
:28:37. > :28:42.talks openly about taking could go any of drugs. It is a big question
:28:42. > :28:46.of how much of an enhancement to be. It is smaller than I would like it
:28:46. > :28:50.to be, that is not an ethical problem. That is research that
:28:50. > :28:56.needs to be done. There is also the question whether the students using
:28:56. > :29:01.these drugs to the best way. Just staying up all night studying might
:29:01. > :29:06.not be the smartest way, you need the sleep to consolidate your
:29:06. > :29:09.memory. Some cognitive enhancer, such as Ritalin, are classed as
:29:10. > :29:13.controlled drugs, modafinil is not. It is not illegal to buy it on-line,
:29:13. > :29:18.but it is illegal to supply it without a prescription. We have all
:29:18. > :29:24.heard about students drinking coffee or taking caffeine tablets
:29:24. > :29:29.to stay awake all night to cram for an exam, or finish an essay. Now
:29:29. > :29:36.there is evidence they are taking something more potent. There is
:29:36. > :29:46.little hard data to what taking what. We conducted a poll of
:29:46. > :29:53.
:29:53. > :30:00.Newsnight viewers and New Scientist The survey gives us only Anwar he
:30:00. > :30:05.can total snapshot of the world of smart - anecdotal snapshot of the
:30:05. > :30:09.world of smart drugs. It could lead to a two-tier society. There are
:30:09. > :30:13.people out there, not just willing, but able to source the drugs, and
:30:13. > :30:18.take them. They are like earlier doctors of technology. Maybe the
:30:18. > :30:22.whole world isn't taking them, but a section of society that is. That
:30:22. > :30:25.raises social and ethical issues. Quite aside from safety, we need to
:30:25. > :30:28.start thinking about whether people should be allowed to take these
:30:28. > :30:32.drugs if they are taking exams, for example, or if they are at
:30:32. > :30:41.university. Is it a bit like performance-enhancing drugs in
:30:41. > :30:46.sport, which we don't allow people to use. I'm back in Cambridge to
:30:46. > :30:50.find out the effect a cognitive enhancing drug has on me. There are
:30:50. > :30:55.safety concerns, and we have been through a questionaire of what is
:30:55. > :31:00.safe four today. James Rowe is a neurologist, and part of a research
:31:00. > :31:06.team, testing compound drugs like modafinil, to see if they help with
:31:06. > :31:11.Alzheimer's disease or Parkinson's. In this capsule I have put
:31:11. > :31:18.modafinil or a placebo. I won't know, nor will the person doing the
:31:18. > :31:22.test today. If you would like to take that.
:31:22. > :31:26.There we go. How do we actually conduct this test?
:31:26. > :31:30.This is our second trip to the Cambridge unit. I'm about to take
:31:30. > :31:40.this tablet. Again, I don't know if it is the placebo or the real
:31:40. > :31:40.
:31:40. > :31:46.modafinil. And now I have to wait for a couple
:31:46. > :31:54.of hours for the drug to take effect.
:31:54. > :31:58.Provigil Sahakian is also part of the Cambridge team - Professor
:31:58. > :32:02.Sahakian is also part of the Cambridge team. She has done
:32:02. > :32:07.research saying sleep-deprived surgeons work better on modafinil.
:32:07. > :32:12.She believes the drugs could play a wider role in society. Academy of
:32:12. > :32:16.medical science reported in 2008, showed even a small 10% improvement
:32:16. > :32:20.in a memory score could lead to a higher A-level grade or degree
:32:20. > :32:26.class. That is a big improvement. As a society we could perhaps move
:32:26. > :32:31.forward if we all had a form of cognitive enhancement that was safe.
:32:31. > :32:35.Taking drugs to enhance cognition, may be limited by the brain itself.
:32:35. > :32:45.But there are those who think we could go further, by adding whole
:32:45. > :32:48.
:32:48. > :32:53.dimensions to our brains, artificially. Back in 1998, Kevin
:32:53. > :32:58.Warwick became the world's first sigh boring, part human and part
:32:58. > :33:01.robot. He had a chip implanted in his arm, and wired up to his
:33:01. > :33:05.nervous system. His wife had a similar operation, and their's
:33:06. > :33:10.became the first human nervous systems to commune Kate
:33:10. > :33:15.electronically over the Internet. Show me what you can do with the
:33:15. > :33:20.magnets. This is nominal, but you can pull it around. His Phd
:33:20. > :33:25.students are working on similar leans. Ian has had magnets stitched
:33:25. > :33:30.into the end of his fingers to see what it is like to have a sixth,
:33:30. > :33:34.magnetic sense. And Professor Warwick's latest project is a mini-
:33:34. > :33:38.rat-like robot, controlled by human brain cells. With actual human
:33:38. > :33:43.brains. He thinks human enhancement is challenging the way we think of
:33:43. > :33:49.our own limitations, and how we reach out to others. We have
:33:49. > :33:52.already achieved with my implants, nervous system to nervous system
:33:52. > :33:56.communication, a telegraphic communication. Clearly the next
:33:57. > :34:01.step is brain-to-brain. Basics of thought communication. The big
:34:01. > :34:10.advantages of that are we won't have to commune Kate in this
:34:10. > :34:20.mechanical speech form, but we will be - commune Kate in this
:34:20. > :34:23.
:34:23. > :34:26.mechanical form, but in thoughts. In Cambridge I'm doing an
:34:26. > :34:32.experimentation of my own. I have to complete two sets of compute
:34:32. > :34:42.irgames over an hour-and-a-half. To test my powers of memory, strategy
:34:42. > :34:47.
:34:47. > :34:55.and planning. And to see if modafinil has any effect on me.
:34:55. > :34:59.If I said to you 1, 2, 3 you would say 3, 2, 1. The first one is 5, 1.
:34:59. > :35:05.1, 5. That is everything done, just to rate how you are feeling. How
:35:05. > :35:10.are you feeling? I suppose physically I'm feeling more myself,
:35:10. > :35:14.so if I had to guess I would say that last time was when I was given
:35:14. > :35:19.the modafinil. It is really very marginal. We will find out if I was
:35:19. > :35:23.right in a minute. In our pressurised society, we
:35:23. > :35:29.might be tempted to pop a pill to achieve the best we can, the
:35:29. > :35:32.fastest we can. But what if there were drugs that can make us kinder,
:35:33. > :35:39.more considerate, more moral. Scientists are about to start tests
:35:39. > :35:45.on a range of hormones that could do just that. They call it, moral
:35:45. > :35:48.enhancement. So one could certainly imagine reducing the testosterone
:35:48. > :35:51.level. Testosterone generally tends to make people slightly more
:35:51. > :35:55.aggressive, and also make us less likely to watch faces. We become
:35:55. > :36:00.less interested in trying to figure out what other people think when we
:36:00. > :36:04.are high on testosterone. We also become more risk-taking, that is
:36:05. > :36:11.problematic in certain situations, in the stock market or the sports
:36:11. > :36:17.field. Bioet thirst, Professor John Harris, supports the idea of
:36:17. > :36:23.cognitive enhancements, but sees risk in dabbling with people's
:36:23. > :36:26.values. Someone isn't morally enhanced to do things of which
:36:26. > :36:31.other others approve. They are morally enhanced if they are better
:36:31. > :36:36.capable of making moral judgments, better capable of considering
:36:36. > :36:40.alternative, realising that the consequences of their actions
:36:40. > :36:45.matter. Realising the larger context in which they act. Most of
:36:45. > :36:50.that will be more achievable through cognitive enhancement than
:36:50. > :36:55.moral enhancement. Moment of truth. I have to ask you, can you guess,
:36:55. > :36:59.can you tell me which day you thought you took the modafinil.
:36:59. > :37:03.is hard, it is marginal, if I was forced to guess, I would say the
:37:03. > :37:07.first time is when I had the real modafinil. That is interesting, you
:37:07. > :37:11.are not correct. Today you had the modafinil. Really, that is
:37:11. > :37:16.interesting, I would definitely say I feel more myself today. Which is
:37:16. > :37:21.very strange. Also on the test when it came to planning, moving the
:37:21. > :37:28.balls around on the screen to match the two displays. The one I don't
:37:28. > :37:36.like. You did very well and you did even better today on the modafinil.
:37:36. > :37:43.On the memory recognition task my score went up to 9 out of ten, from
:37:43. > :37:48.8 out of 10, a 9% increase. We saw striking improvements in memory,
:37:48. > :37:52.planning abilities and impulsiveity. It is human nature to want to push
:37:52. > :37:55.against our limitation, but what about the risks? My tests with
:37:55. > :38:00.modafinil were medically superadvised and involved just one
:38:00. > :38:10.dose. With these drugs we just don't know the long-term effects on
:38:10. > :38:12.
:38:12. > :38:17.the brain. I think it would be great if the Government looked at
:38:17. > :38:21.it with the pharmaceutical industry, and said if you can show efficacy
:38:21. > :38:25.we will regulate the drugs in the normal way, and perhaps people can
:38:25. > :38:31.go to their GP and ask can they take the drug. If safety can be
:38:32. > :38:35.proven, some see no reason to hold back. It is difficult to think of a
:38:35. > :38:40.plausible place to set an upper limit to intelligence or cognitive
:38:40. > :38:44.powers. If we can improve our could go any of powers, and by doing so
:38:44. > :38:48.shorten our learning time, and allow education to operate from a
:38:48. > :38:53.higher base, it might be not only good for individuals, actually, but
:38:53. > :38:58.cost effective for society. We can increase the power of our brain
:38:58. > :39:02.through exercise and sleep, and diet. But the attraction of a pill
:39:02. > :39:09.that makes you smarter won't go away. It might mean a difference of
:39:09. > :39:19.just a few per cent now, but what if that was 50%, 100%? Would we
:39:19. > :39:21.
:39:21. > :39:24.still say no? With us now is the Professor of clinical
:39:24. > :39:31.neuropsychology from Cambridge, Barbara Sahakian, whom you saw, and
:39:31. > :39:35.the author of Why Solutions Don't Work In A ComPlex World, Bryan
:39:35. > :39:38.Appleyard. Do you think the pills should be available to anyone who
:39:38. > :39:43.wants them? They can't be, because they haven't done the long-term
:39:43. > :39:48.safety studies for healthy people. They would be dangerous to make
:39:48. > :39:52.them available. They need some studies done. They currently
:39:52. > :39:54.shouldn't be available because which don't know the long-term
:39:54. > :39:59.consequences? That's correct. Some younger people are taking them and
:39:59. > :40:07.the brain is still in development, well into young adulthood.
:40:07. > :40:09.would say young people shouldn't take them? Obviously if you have a
:40:09. > :40:13.neuro-psychiatric illness, you might need the drugs, if you are a
:40:13. > :40:17.healthy child and your brain is in development. The healthy young man
:40:17. > :40:20.we saw at Oxford University, clearly very smart, claimed that
:40:20. > :40:23.these pills enhanced his performance. He shouldn't be taking
:40:23. > :40:26.them in your judgment, because we don't know the long-term
:40:26. > :40:31.consequences? We have done studies at Cambridge University, and we
:40:31. > :40:35.find improvements in healthy people. But we do these acute studies. He
:40:35. > :40:38.is taking them long-term, he's neglecting his sleep, it is a very,
:40:38. > :40:44.he's buying them over the Internet, which is a very dangerous way to
:40:45. > :40:49.get hold of drugs. Leaving aside the question of whether they are
:40:49. > :40:54.reliably sourced. Supposing they can be reliably manufactureed and,
:40:54. > :40:59.furthermore, there is no long-term damage caused by extensive use of
:40:59. > :41:05.these things, Appleyard, you're - Bryan Appleyard, you are a clever
:41:05. > :41:09.guy, don't you want to be cleverer? I don't know what that means, there
:41:09. > :41:16.is a bigger issue here, particularly in the use of the word
:41:16. > :41:20."enhancement", people talk about moral enhancing. The word
:41:20. > :41:27."enhancement", we only have one yardstick of human consciousness,
:41:27. > :41:32.that is human consciousness. If you go beyond human enhancement what
:41:32. > :41:36.would it be like, would it be like Osama Bin Laden. Do you think
:41:36. > :41:40.society would benefit, let's leave aside the question of sourcing and
:41:40. > :41:44.long-term damage, assuming they are safe and reliably manufactured,
:41:44. > :41:49.would society be better off? think that you know, if you talk
:41:49. > :41:53.about improving people's memory, and their ability to plan, problem
:41:53. > :41:56.solve, we have showed in a recent study, with imperial college, that
:41:56. > :42:00.sleep deprived doctors do much better on this, they have much
:42:00. > :42:04.lower side-effects than taking caffeine, coffee. Do you think
:42:04. > :42:08.these things should be available on the NHS? That is a different
:42:08. > :42:12.discussion all together. Because that has to do with the cost.
:42:12. > :42:18.asking what you think? Certainly for neuro-psychiatric patients and
:42:18. > :42:24.people with brain injury, yes I do. Ordinary people? On the NHS? Well,
:42:24. > :42:31.I think there is a difference between helping somebody to be
:42:31. > :42:35.normalised, and then enhancement is a different order. When it comes to
:42:35. > :42:38.enhancement, those who pay should be able to do it? It is an
:42:38. > :42:43.interesting social and ethical problem. As this was brought up
:42:43. > :42:47.earlier, on the video, because it is important that we make access.
:42:47. > :42:51.But what I would say, Jeremy, is there are other ways, there is
:42:51. > :42:54.exercise, education, these are great ways to boost cognition. We
:42:54. > :42:59.don't always have to use a drug. You don't have a problem with
:42:59. > :43:03.people taking lots of exercise and the rest of it? Absolutely not.
:43:03. > :43:08.problem is specifically with what chemical reactions may be taking
:43:08. > :43:13.place as a consequence of taking medication? There are two issues,
:43:13. > :43:17.one is the consequences, and the other is it a good thing in the
:43:17. > :43:22.wider sense of affecting what it is to be human. I don't think we have
:43:22. > :43:26.the faintist idea what enhancing a human being is. - faintest idea of
:43:26. > :43:30.what enhancing a human being is. I think convincing people they can
:43:30. > :43:38.live their normal lives better by taking this chemical is a step too
:43:38. > :43:42.far. Obviously we enhance people in all sorts of ways, we wear glasses
:43:42. > :43:48.and take exercises, and education is enhancement. There is a line in
:43:48. > :43:53.which you start saying, you will take a drug, all the time, in order
:43:53. > :43:58.to be a different superior being is very dubious, it seems to me. It is
:43:58. > :44:01.taking us away from the social norms with which we move.
:44:01. > :44:06.Presumably you would get circumstances in which employers
:44:06. > :44:09.would say, I will give you the job but take this pill all the time?
:44:09. > :44:14.can guarantee that human beings to be what they are, they would use
:44:14. > :44:20.the drugs to produce the perfect soldier. These would be used in
:44:20. > :44:25.that way. There is already owerings, frequently when I speak to students,
:44:25. > :44:31.they say they don't want to take the drugs and there is pressure on
:44:31. > :44:35.them to take T the question of coercion is there. That is like an
:44:35. > :44:42.argument for compulsory drunkenness, it is peer pressure? It is peer
:44:42. > :44:46.pressure, I know Nature did an on- line survey and people responded.
:44:46. > :44:50.These on-line surveys are worthless, it is not a controlled sample?
:44:50. > :44:53.is not. Why are you citing it? interesting feature is the issue of
:44:53. > :44:56.coercion, when asked if children should be given the drugs if they
:44:56. > :45:00.are healthy, most of the people said no. When asked if they would
:45:00. > :45:04.give the drug to their child if other children in the classroom
:45:04. > :45:08.were taking these drugs, they said, yes. The issue of coercion comes up
:45:08. > :45:11.again, it is only in trusting in that regard. Do you also believe
:45:11. > :45:16.the question that was cited in the film there, that Brian has already
:45:16. > :45:21.referred to, that there is a capacity for moral enhancement?
:45:21. > :45:24.think it is very difficult to discuss what people mean by moral
:45:24. > :45:28.enhancement. At least with cognition we have objective tests.
:45:28. > :45:31.We can say whether your memory as improved and by how much, we can
:45:31. > :45:34.talk about whether your planning has improved. This is much more
:45:34. > :45:40.difficult. It is nonsense, isn't it, moral enhancement is the capacity,
:45:40. > :45:44.surely, to make a judgment, based upon your natural capabilities?
:45:44. > :45:47.Well, neuroscientists would also talk, for instance, about cognitive
:45:47. > :45:51.control, being able to control your impulses and your behaviour. There
:45:51. > :46:01.are other forms that are perhaps more easy to measure. We have to
:46:01. > :46:20.
:46:20. > :46:26.leave it there, unfortunately. We have a newed long enough on the
:46:26. > :46:36.bones of contention. Emily gets a go and is sharpening her knashers,
:46:36. > :46:55.
:46:55. > :46:59.I think they are her's! Good night. Hello, another mild
:46:59. > :47:04.night out there. Later on we could see heavy rain arriving in the
:47:04. > :47:07.south west of England. Could make for miserable driving conditions in
:47:07. > :47:12.Somerset, Devon and Dorset, and South Wales. That pulse of rain
:47:12. > :47:18.goes northwards during the day, the afternoon could be damp through the
:47:18. > :47:23.west of the Pennine. In the south a grey start, brightening up across
:47:23. > :47:28.East Anglia and south-east England. Sunny spells coming through, and
:47:28. > :47:31.mild the South-West, wet, possibly very wet, by afternoon it should be
:47:31. > :47:34.dryer and maybe brighter. Today dull and damp in South Wales, to
:47:34. > :47:38.the west we should brighten up. Sunshine is possible here. By and
:47:38. > :47:42.large it is looking like a fine day in Northern Ireland. We will see
:47:42. > :47:45.some cloud, but we should get some sunshine as well. A dry and bright
:47:46. > :47:50.day again across much of North West Scotland. Elsewhere across Scotland
:47:50. > :47:53.it starts dry, but outbreaks of rain working their way in. As for
:47:53. > :47:58.Friday, we will see another band of rain moving in across Northern
:47:58. > :48:02.Ireland, slowly that will work into parts of South-West Scotland. For
:48:02. > :48:08.Edinburgh and Inverness, we could see sunshine. Cloud across the
:48:08. > :48:11.country on Friday. It is still mild, temperatures above average, 14-16
:48:11. > :48:15.degrees. A slice of sunshine during Friday, only ahead of the next band