:00:09. > :00:13.From Arab Spring to European fall, in parts of the Middle East they
:00:13. > :00:21.are making steps towards democracy, while this week in Europe,
:00:21. > :00:25.technocrats are electing leaders. Does the right of Lucas Papademos
:00:25. > :00:30.in -- rise of Lucas Papademos in Greece, show that European
:00:30. > :00:36.democracy can't hand the british. Our diplomatic editors are there
:00:36. > :00:41.with their take on the dramatic week in the eurozone.
:00:41. > :00:44.Across the country millions fell silent to mark Armistice Day. Is
:00:44. > :00:49.the poppy now a political symbol as much as a symbol of the fallen. We
:00:49. > :00:59.will discuss if there is a better way to honour the dead. We will
:00:59. > :01:05.
:01:05. > :01:10.read experts of Siegfried Sasson's unearthed poem. Stars flung forth
:01:10. > :01:15.to lead you in the light. Good evening, perhaps it is because
:01:15. > :01:23.Europe appears to be lurching from one crisis to the next, when
:01:23. > :01:25.something truly seismic happens we approach it with something
:01:25. > :01:31.approaching souscience. Two democratically elected leaders were
:01:31. > :01:36.flung out for failing and replaced with two unelected techno crafts.
:01:36. > :01:43.While Egypt is busy embracing the world of democracy. It is a
:01:43. > :01:53.topscyture vee world where democracy seems to be eroding, our
:01:53. > :01:59.
:01:59. > :02:03.diplomatic editor, Mark Urban reports. We saw the Arab Spring,
:02:03. > :02:07.where people rose up to get rid of old men in favour of democracy. Now
:02:07. > :02:14.we have the European autumn, which involves pushing aside democratic
:02:14. > :02:17.leaders in favour of unelected old leaders in favour of unelected old
:02:17. > :02:20.men? I think one parallel that seems to have emerged between parts
:02:20. > :02:26.of the Middle East and Europe. We have had leaders not telling the
:02:26. > :02:30.truth, trying to cosset their population in fake stories about
:02:30. > :02:35.the Promised Land in the future. course, this is painting with very
:02:36. > :02:39.broad brush strokes, just three out of a couple of dozen Arab
:02:39. > :02:43.leaderships have been overthrown by revolutions so far. Just Greece has
:02:43. > :02:51.appointed one of those grey unelected men as Prime Minister,
:02:51. > :02:58.with Italy probably about to do so too, out of 26EU countries. But
:02:58. > :03:03.there is a deeper point -- 27 EU countries. There is a point of
:03:03. > :03:12.discontent sweepg across Europe, discontent with politics, sharpened
:03:12. > :03:15.by the forces of global recession. As for either type of change
:03:15. > :03:19.delivering, we are not sure. Egypt is still ruled by a military
:03:19. > :03:25.Government, and plenty of people are frustrated by the slow pace of
:03:25. > :03:31.reform. But elections will happen soon in Egypt, and have gone well
:03:31. > :03:35.enough in Tunisia. So there Maysoon be democratic leaders, struggling
:03:35. > :03:41.to match the 5-6% economic growth managed in the latter days of
:03:41. > :03:44.President Mubarak. As for Europe, there are already
:03:44. > :03:50.many happy to argue that the last thing Greece or Italy needs is an
:03:50. > :03:57.election right now. Better to get austerity measures
:03:57. > :04:03.through parliament, as happened in Italy today. The calculation seems
:04:03. > :04:08.to be that unelected men like Lucas Papademos, swoorn in with his new
:04:08. > :04:17.unity Government today, -- swoorn in with his new unity Government
:04:17. > :04:23.today, can swoot bankers, if they - - sooth bankers. It maybe this
:04:24. > :04:28.generates anger with the unelected arbiters of a nation's future. How
:04:28. > :04:34.to retain support when the markets, social media or news channels all
:04:34. > :04:39.seem to focus unhappiness or fear and amplify it. When it comes to
:04:39. > :04:45.enhancing positive emotions or enabling change, those forces seem
:04:45. > :04:49.to operate less effectively. So if a leader, as charasmatic as
:04:49. > :04:54.President Obama, can get terrible approval ratings, and they have
:04:54. > :04:59.been pretty bad recently, in this climate of recession, the question,
:04:59. > :05:05.can any democratic leader hold on to his or her popularity in this
:05:05. > :05:12.recession would seem to be, no they can. I think leaders will stand a
:05:12. > :05:14.chance, right now I think people are not ideolgical about their
:05:14. > :05:17.leaders. We have a potential socialist with a good chance of
:05:17. > :05:20.winning an election in France. You have a right-wing Government with a
:05:20. > :05:24.good chance in Spain. It is not right or left, it is give me
:05:24. > :05:27.competence, give me a Government that can get us through this moment
:05:27. > :05:33.of panic, then we will worry about the fuen tuning of whether you are
:05:33. > :05:38.more in favour of -- fine tuning of whether you are more in favour of
:05:38. > :05:42.spending or the market. In this European autumn, it is hard to
:05:42. > :05:46.imagine an electorate surging into a more optimistic mood at any time.
:05:46. > :05:51.The best we can hope for, politically, is the absence of
:05:51. > :05:55.complaint. Mark Urban is here with Paul Mason.
:05:55. > :05:59.Paul, the overall, the overarching idea here is that the economic
:05:59. > :06:04.crisis brought a complete change to the nature of power, and who
:06:04. > :06:09.actually exercise it is? It is not shocking to see this rather strange
:06:09. > :06:14.sequence of crisis, bailout, imposed austerity package, and then
:06:14. > :06:17.election to decide who implements it. We saw this in Ireland and
:06:17. > :06:22.Portugal. There are elements of it in Italy and Greece. The shocking
:06:23. > :06:26.thing was to see other Governments, avertly involved in the overthrow.
:06:26. > :06:30.Specifically with Greece, but also with Italy, in the case of Angela
:06:30. > :06:33.Merkel, who rang the Italian President, could ask could there be
:06:33. > :06:37.a different Government. There is that, there is the underlying
:06:37. > :06:40.economics of it are, that the economic orthodoxy of an entire
:06:40. > :06:45.generation of politicians seems to be failing. They don't know what to
:06:45. > :06:50.do. One looks them in the eye in Cannes and Brussels and all the
:06:50. > :06:53.other various venues, you tend to see a slight absence of belief in
:06:53. > :06:58.themselves. An absence of belief in themselves, mirrored with the idea
:06:58. > :07:03.that somebody like Angela Merkel has to impose herself on Europe.
:07:03. > :07:08.Yes, and it is interesting to see it from a UK perspective. Every
:07:08. > :07:11.nation look at this there their own prism, the UK is be careful what
:07:11. > :07:14.you look for. George Osborne and David Cameron have been urging on
:07:14. > :07:19.the Central Bank, tighter fiscal union, more discipline, but this is
:07:19. > :07:21.what it can look like. What we have seen this week, toppling of
:07:21. > :07:27.Governments, putting unelected people in. To the Euro-sceptic part
:07:27. > :07:34.of those same Conservative leaders is repugnant, and heightens this
:07:34. > :07:37.disconnect between the measures needed to pay the -- pave the
:07:37. > :07:41.economic position, and the legitimacy of the project.
:07:41. > :07:45.legitimacy is what suffers, does national politics, national
:07:45. > :07:49.Government sufrbgs or does the European project suffer -- suffer,
:07:50. > :07:55.or does the European project suffer at the end of this? Mario Monti,
:07:55. > :07:59.only made a senator two days a nod not even nominated yet, we believe
:07:59. > :08:03.he will be the replacement for Berlusconi, he buys them time.
:08:03. > :08:08.Italy isn't in a death spiral. They have had a premier who lacked, for
:08:08. > :08:12.the markets, credibility, Greece, is in a social crisis. Greece a
:08:12. > :08:17.month ago saw the communist party militia squad defending the
:08:17. > :08:20.parliament against the anarchists, this is not the Europe that Olli
:08:20. > :08:25.Rehn thinks he's running. That is the problem for them. They have
:08:25. > :08:29.very little take on what to do about it. Even the technocrats, I
:08:29. > :08:34.would argue. Also in the film there, your interviewee was talking about
:08:34. > :08:39.the change again likely in future elections in France and in Spain.
:08:39. > :08:43.And a different configuration? was saying people were being non-
:08:43. > :08:47.ideolgical in Europe, listening to him, I was thinking, no, they are
:08:47. > :08:49.just against the incumbent. Whoever that is. That is part of this huge
:08:49. > :08:53.discontent with established political orders, that whoever you
:08:53. > :08:57.are, you will get caned in the current crisis. We were talking
:08:57. > :09:01.about the way that both Cameron and Osbourne had approached this,
:09:01. > :09:06.obviously the Euro-sceptics here in the backbenches. But there was lsz
:09:06. > :09:10.a move in Europe that is Britain- sceptic. You can clearly pick that
:09:10. > :09:14.up whenever you have contact with European politicians. The Brits, we
:09:14. > :09:18.are coming up to the autumn statement. The well laid plans, the
:09:18. > :09:23.best laid plans to rebalance our economy, and to cut our deficit, I
:09:23. > :09:28.think, as we speak, being redrawn. They have to be. We don't even know
:09:28. > :09:31.how bad the, if we get the worst case scenario, an Italian debt
:09:31. > :09:35.crisis, we don't know how bad the European credit crunch will be. It
:09:35. > :09:40.could spoil everybody's plan. do you think this looks in Europe
:09:40. > :09:44.from the Arab world? I can't say. We should really ask someone in
:09:44. > :09:48.Cairo or Tripoli tonight. What is apparent when you are there, is
:09:48. > :09:52.there is enormous enthusiasm, there is grass roots belief in democracy.
:09:52. > :09:55.When you actually look at how it can be applied in those countries,
:09:55. > :10:00.people are less sure. They have had 42 years of dictatorship in Libya,
:10:00. > :10:04.they have had very, very oppressive systems. As the challenges come up
:10:04. > :10:08.of trying to run these election, we have seen all sorts of curious
:10:08. > :10:11.rules put in by the military in Egypt, trying to make it work and
:10:11. > :10:15.then trying to deliver practical Government. It is possible that the
:10:15. > :10:18.coalitions that overthrew those dictators can fracture under that
:10:18. > :10:23.pressure. To discuss further where the
:10:24. > :10:29.turmoil of this week might lead, I'm joined by the French-born
:10:29. > :10:35.journalist, who covered the Arab Spring, by the Conservative MP Rory
:10:35. > :10:38.Stuart, who returned from Libya, and the person who helped draw up
:10:38. > :10:43.the Lisbon Treaty. Picking up straight away on the
:10:43. > :10:49.whole question of how this looks, funnily enough, from the three
:10:50. > :10:53.countries merging into democracies? This null liberated country, like
:10:53. > :10:59.Egypt, Tunisia and Libya, they are way behind, necessarily, in their
:10:59. > :11:02.expressions of democracy. In fact, they are still trying to establish
:11:02. > :11:06.democracy. The Tunisia model, they have staged elections recently. I
:11:06. > :11:11.think that gives us hope for the future of the region. But nothing
:11:11. > :11:17.more than that. As we know, gunmen are not just the army, they are
:11:17. > :11:23.still very much in charge of Egypt and Libya. And the Libyans are
:11:23. > :11:28.aware that their own revolution succeeded through the immense fire
:11:28. > :11:33.power of NATO, and it had nothing to do with that. Looking now, at
:11:33. > :11:36.how this all looks, in Europe, it looks, funnily enough, of course,
:11:36. > :11:40.that democracy, certainly the way it is being exercised in Italy and
:11:40. > :11:45.Greece, simply isn't up to the task, or the financial crisis that Europe
:11:45. > :11:48.finds itself in, or the global financial crisis? You are rather
:11:48. > :11:50.assuming that the structures within the European Union, and
:11:51. > :11:53.particularly in relation to the eurozone, were democratic in the
:11:53. > :11:57.sense as we understand them. An ability to change the Government,
:11:57. > :12:00.if you no longer like what the current Government does. The one
:12:01. > :12:04.thing we should never underestimate is the ability of genuine
:12:04. > :12:09.democracies to recover, and they have resilience. The deep malaise
:12:09. > :12:13.which we are seeing at the moment, is that politically elite of 17
:12:13. > :12:16.countries, particularly led by two big ones, holding on to a model
:12:16. > :12:20.that simply doesn't work. The people who have to pay the price
:12:20. > :12:24.for that, those countries in the periphery, like Greece, Portugal
:12:24. > :12:27.and Spain, that are liquid. fact is that politics isn't up to
:12:27. > :12:32.the economics, if you want to put it that way in these countries.
:12:32. > :12:36.Therefore, putting in a technocrat essentially is an erosion of
:12:36. > :12:40.democracy? It is a righteous erosion of democracy. The answer is
:12:40. > :12:43.to recognise that the 17 countries currently within the eurozone are
:12:43. > :12:47.not economies that can function together. If the politicians were
:12:47. > :12:50.really serious about resolving the problem, they would start by
:12:50. > :12:54.drawing up plans that would allow some countries to restore
:12:54. > :12:59.competitiveness, like Greece, and be allowed to leave the euro to do
:12:59. > :13:04.that. On Europe, first, before we turn to look at the Arab Spring.
:13:04. > :13:07.There is the possibility, obviously you can make an algs at the Arab
:13:07. > :13:11.Spring and say there is the domino effect. You could say in Europe we
:13:11. > :13:15.are not free of the domino effect in this crisis at all, are we?
:13:15. > :13:18.course Italy is a much more serious threat in that way than Greece. But
:13:19. > :13:22.I think we are still on the first phase of things. There is still a
:13:22. > :13:25.very good chance at the moment that things can settle down and Europe
:13:25. > :13:29.can muddle through. Despite the fact that European populations are
:13:29. > :13:38.really angry. By and large, the parties in Europe, and the
:13:38. > :13:41.Governments in Europe remain pro- European. The If it continues, if
:13:41. > :13:44.Italy in crisis, something else may change, at the moment we are not
:13:44. > :13:49.there yet. It is interesting, it looks as if politicians in way are
:13:50. > :13:54.happy to sit back, and let the technocrats take the hit and sort
:13:54. > :14:01.this out. Which presumably is not a good day for politics? My own view
:14:02. > :14:05.is the realities of global economics do not sit happily with
:14:05. > :14:08.democratic principles. It is time for technocrats to fix the economic
:14:08. > :14:13.system, reassure the financial markets and to make sure the
:14:13. > :14:18.continent competes with growing economic powers houses, like China
:14:18. > :14:23.and India, for example. And on a purely practical level, I think it
:14:23. > :14:28.is quite impossible to organise elections at this time. But the
:14:28. > :14:31.point is, that what the electorate wants Governments to do, the
:14:32. > :14:35.markets, the traders won't let them do. There is a huge disconnect here,
:14:35. > :14:41.isn't it, it would seem the market, the people who call the shots on
:14:41. > :14:47.the markets end up with the upperhand? I'm shocked to hear an
:14:47. > :14:52.argument that says technocrats need to take over because we can't trust
:14:52. > :14:56.the people. It is exact low in times like this you need to trust
:14:57. > :15:00.in the recovery of democracies. Hold on, what got us into the
:15:00. > :15:04.trouble, were the very technocrats, that didn't face up to economic
:15:04. > :15:07.realities, who thought politicians could override markets. They caused
:15:07. > :15:10.the problem, and now they are portraying themselves to be the
:15:10. > :15:14.solution. I think this is great opportunity for politicians.
:15:14. > :15:17.Because at the moment the public is divided. If you look at the Greek
:15:17. > :15:22.population, they don't want to leave the eurozone, 80% of Greeks
:15:22. > :15:27.want to stay in the eurozone. But 80% of Greeks don't want the reform
:15:27. > :15:31.package. That is the classic area for politicians. A technocrat on
:15:31. > :15:34.its own won't solve that problem. The technocrat is having to solve
:15:34. > :15:40.the problems, because neither the Government in Italy or Greece were
:15:40. > :15:43.sufficient to the task? In the end I don't believe that is sustainable.
:15:44. > :15:47.Agree with the point there. Politicians need to explain to
:15:47. > :15:57.people what's happening U need to sit down with the Greek people and
:15:57. > :15:58.
:15:58. > :16:01.say you can't have it both ways. You can't lurch from populisim to
:16:01. > :16:05.technocratcy. Although the Papandreou's referendum was madness
:16:05. > :16:11.it was understandable, you have to engage with the people. If you
:16:11. > :16:16.don't engage with the people there is a huge A discontent. Then we
:16:16. > :16:21.have -- a huge amount of discontent. We have had huge demonstrations in
:16:21. > :16:26.Greece, not the same as Tarango Syntagma Sqare, but where can
:16:26. > :16:36.discon-- Tahir Syntagma Sqare, but where can discontent lead.
:16:36. > :16:43.
:16:43. > :16:48.reality within the -- the messages put across by Twitter and Facebook
:16:48. > :16:51.were far more important than the politicians' points. The hands of
:16:51. > :16:56.the economy is very much in the hands of the money people, they are
:16:56. > :16:59.far more influential than the politicians. You don't hold any
:16:59. > :17:04.more influence? Politicians set the framework, democracy is the
:17:04. > :17:08.framework within which the people express their collective will.
:17:08. > :17:11.Politicians represent the people, and I really do think that we need
:17:11. > :17:18.to trust those democracies. Just to come back y is Greece in the
:17:18. > :17:21.trouble it is in. Because some politicians allowed Greece to come
:17:21. > :17:25.in and join on the terms which were wrong and everybody knew. That that
:17:25. > :17:29.is the root of the crisis, not democracy. I'm not saying we should
:17:29. > :17:32.not trust people. Absolutely not. I'm saying at a particular time,
:17:32. > :17:37.when we are faced with a crisis, it is unwise to go to the country.
:17:37. > :17:41.This idea that President Sarkozy can sort the whole mess out over
:17:41. > :17:45.dinner with Angela Merkel is absolutely ludicrous.
:17:45. > :17:49.Where does it leave Britain? Britain needs to be very careful.
:17:49. > :17:53.Wherever this is going, Britain's interests are the stability of our
:17:53. > :17:57.economy and the stability of Europe. We need to try to help Europe to
:17:57. > :18:00.settle down. We have to recognise that this isn't the moment to be
:18:00. > :18:04.talking about Britain's in and out. It is about stablising the economy
:18:04. > :18:09.and helping Europe to stablise. It is also, just to come back to this
:18:09. > :18:12.conversation we are having, it can't be about bankers and
:18:12. > :18:17.technocrats weighing in to Greece and Italy, telling the people. We
:18:17. > :18:23.have seen the IMF do that all over the world, it is a disaster. A
:18:23. > :18:26.backlash will follow, people won't put up with it. We have seen it in
:18:26. > :18:30.2008, there was nominal anger at Gordon Brown's Government. But the
:18:30. > :18:36.real outrage was really reserved at financial institutions and indeed
:18:37. > :18:41.banks who had gambled away the fortunes. Thank you all very much.
:18:41. > :18:44.Millions of people fell silent at 11.00am today, marking the moments
:18:44. > :18:48.the guns stopped firing on the Western Front in 1918, many, many
:18:48. > :18:53.more are wearing a poppy as a mark of respect for those who died then,
:18:53. > :18:58.and in wars and conflicts since. But has the poppy become more than
:18:58. > :19:02.a token of remembrance and respect. David Cameron insisted this week
:19:02. > :19:06.the poppy transcends politics, it is not an issue of left nor right,
:19:06. > :19:15.nor even if someone is in favour origins a particular war. Can that
:19:15. > :19:18.be right? We will discuss that in a moment, first here's Steven Smith.
:19:18. > :19:22.The poppy has been associated with combat and sacrifice since the
:19:22. > :19:31.Great War. This week it seems to have been at the centre of a
:19:31. > :19:35.political and cultural battlefield. On remembersance day, newly
:19:35. > :19:40.restored footage of the Battle of the Somme, from the imperial war
:19:40. > :19:47.new seem, and a previously undiscovered verse by the Great War
:19:47. > :19:50.poet, Siegfried Sasson. "you in the winds ride out together. Your
:19:50. > :19:56.company the world's great weather. The clouds your plume, the
:19:56. > :20:00.glittering sky a host of swords in harmony with the whole lovelyness
:20:00. > :20:06.of light, flung forth to lead you through the fight". Siegfried
:20:06. > :20:14.Sasson found it very difficult to give us ideal of war, his ideal of
:20:14. > :20:24.the glory of war, the shivery of fighting, link that goes back to
:20:24. > :20:26.
:20:26. > :20:30.legend, he found it very difficult indeed to do this. In Afghanistan
:20:30. > :20:36.the Defence Secretary laid a wreath of poppies.
:20:36. > :20:44.There, and all over the qu., a two minutes silence was -- UK, a two
:20:44. > :20:49.minutes silence was observed. England's footballers will play
:20:49. > :20:53.Spain at Wembley tomorrow, wearing poppies, after a diplomatic
:20:53. > :20:55.incident, involving world's footballs leaders, as well as
:20:55. > :20:59.Prince William and the Prime Minister. As the players, we do a
:20:59. > :21:03.lot of work with the military boys. You will see a lot of them here,
:21:03. > :21:07.and at every England game. If we were running out and not showing
:21:07. > :21:12.our respects in way we would be letting them down. It has emerged
:21:12. > :21:16.that the row was diffused thanks to a Tory MP, who is also a qualified
:21:16. > :21:21.referee. He looked up the rules and found a loophole, permitting
:21:21. > :21:26.symbols on armbands. It is not a political symbol. It is a sil
:21:26. > :21:29.symbol of remembrance. It is also a symbol of respect for those serving
:21:29. > :21:33.the country at this current time. Once you have spent a couple of
:21:33. > :21:39.minutes explaining what the poppy means to your average Brit,
:21:39. > :21:45.everybody gets it, they know it is not political.
:21:45. > :21:49.Not far from the sen staff in Whitehall, 17 -- Cenotaph, in
:21:49. > :21:53.Whitehall, 170 supporters of the right-wing English Defence League
:21:53. > :21:57.were arrested, to prevent a breach of the peace. They were reportedly
:21:57. > :22:02.planning to go to St Paul's, the site of an anti-capitalist camp.
:22:02. > :22:06.Last year EDL supporters clashed with police on Remembrance Day,
:22:06. > :22:11.after members of a banned extremist group set fire to poppies. For some,
:22:11. > :22:17.who insist on the poppy, as well as for others who are more equivocal,
:22:17. > :22:20.the emblems become political. is it not possible to just give
:22:20. > :22:24.money to The Royal British Legion and not wear a poppy. Because they
:22:24. > :22:28.have become de facto, compulsory, it seems absurd that we have to
:22:28. > :22:31.wear them now. It has become compulsory. I think really, if I
:22:31. > :22:35.just took this poppy off, that would become a political statement,
:22:35. > :22:38.that would be absurd. I have more than one jacket. Do I have to buy a
:22:38. > :22:46.poppy for every jacket, do I have to remember to bring it wherever I
:22:46. > :22:50.It is reported tonight that there have been record sales of poppies.
:22:50. > :22:59.Perhaps because of the controversy surrounding them. Or perhaps, in
:22:59. > :23:09.spite of it. There will be another chance to
:23:09. > :23:10.
:23:10. > :23:14.hear a discussion of the newly discussed Sigfreid Sasson's poetry
:23:14. > :23:19.tomorrow. I'm joined by my guests now. Do you
:23:19. > :23:22.detect a change in atmosphere about the poppy? I think it is becoming
:23:22. > :23:26.an almost compulsory thing. I think it is a great shame. It should be a
:23:26. > :23:30.matter of choice. What it means is that, once a year, we give some
:23:30. > :23:33.money to the British Legion, which does a tremendous amount of work
:23:33. > :23:37.for servicemen who are injured and fall on hard times, we remember all
:23:37. > :23:44.the people that we, the country, have sent off to get killed, in all
:23:44. > :23:48.wars. We say, thanks, chaps, and chappesss, we haven't forgotten you.
:23:48. > :23:52.That is what it means. It mustn't be a symbol to posture on.
:23:52. > :23:55.totally agree on that, when you make it compulsory, it robs the
:23:55. > :23:59.symbol of the power, the power is in the voluntary wearing of it and
:23:59. > :24:05.making statement. The poppy has always been political. I'm wearing
:24:05. > :24:09.a white poppy, going back to the 1920s and 1930s, women losing
:24:09. > :24:14.fathers and sons, approached the red poppies and said will you make
:24:14. > :24:17.a commitment to peace, President Clinton no more -- print no more
:24:17. > :24:21.war on the poppies, we think that is how those who died would want to
:24:21. > :24:25.be remembered. Surely it is a life lost in vain, if we don't make the
:24:25. > :24:30.commitment. They said no. Clearly there are values. Even when David
:24:30. > :24:34.Cameron made his statement saying the poppy is not a political symbol,
:24:34. > :24:38.in the next breath he said it is about the pride of the nation state.
:24:38. > :24:41.He made a political statement afterwards. Is it about the pride
:24:41. > :24:44.of the nation state? Partly, there is nothing political about being
:24:44. > :24:48.proud of what you are and what you have done. Do you think, actually,
:24:49. > :24:53.because there is a change in the atmosphere about the poppy, it is
:24:53. > :24:56.becoming almost compulsory, that people should actually have
:24:56. > :25:00.different symbols for certain conflicts. People know about the
:25:00. > :25:04.poppy at school, because it is really originally about the First
:25:04. > :25:08.World War, and extends to the Second World War, do you think
:25:08. > :25:12.there is a difference. Everybody gives their life in battle, we must
:25:12. > :25:16.remember them, do you think there is other conflicts and other
:25:16. > :25:19.remembrance for other conflicts? think the nice thing about the
:25:19. > :25:24.poppy is it remembers all those who died. Actually now, the other
:25:25. > :25:29.people who have died, not just the world wars. The British Legion says
:25:29. > :25:33.it is only about the soldiers, it makes a valued judgment, it says
:25:33. > :25:37.those who have laid down their lives for our freedom. Framed by
:25:37. > :25:40.World War I, and every conflict subsequently has to fit into the
:25:40. > :25:45.framing. Many people won't leave that soldiers in Afghanistan,
:25:45. > :25:48.whilst respecting them, in Iraq, and Northern Ireland, have laid
:25:48. > :25:53.down their lives for our freedom, and they are asked to make the
:25:53. > :25:57.judgment by wearing the poppy. Most people don't, but that is what the
:25:57. > :26:01.legion says. It doesn't ma if you agree with the war or not, but you
:26:01. > :26:04.the country have sent them off to die. And therefore, you should
:26:04. > :26:08.remember them. Whether you approve of the war or not is irrelevant. Do
:26:08. > :26:13.you approve of the man who has gone out and died, possibly for a cause
:26:13. > :26:17.he didn't agree w but nevertheless it is we who have sent them out to
:26:17. > :26:23.die. Would you wear a white poppy? I probably wouldn't, I don't have
:26:23. > :26:27.any objection to a white poppy. I think it is a bit like wearing a
:26:27. > :26:31.little ball of leather in the hope that England will win the World Cup
:26:31. > :26:35.rugby, but knowing they won't. In the real world we will always have
:26:35. > :26:39.conflict. That is interesting aspect about both the pass visit
:26:39. > :26:44.tradition and the just war tradition, both see war as evil, in
:26:44. > :26:48.the just war you say it is a lesser evil than the alternative. There is
:26:48. > :26:51.broader issue about who you remember about the poppy, the red
:26:51. > :26:55.poppy son-in-law about Armed Forces and our Armed Forces, it is not
:26:56. > :27:00.about civilians and people who have killed. Harry Patch, just before he
:27:00. > :27:05.died, went to lay a wreath on German graves. He said remembrance
:27:05. > :27:10.must be about his quote, "people on both sides of the line". Absolutely,
:27:10. > :27:14.I think we would all do that. I was in Normandy, I laid a wreath and
:27:14. > :27:19.said it was not just for our soldiers but the German dead.
:27:19. > :27:24.has been politicised by the EDL, last year and this year. It is very
:27:24. > :27:27.hard, isn't it, once they have a grasp of that, how do you move
:27:28. > :27:35.away? Ignore them, they are lunatics and dangerous, just as
:27:35. > :27:40.dangerous as the people who want to ban poppies. Ignore them. If you
:27:40. > :27:45.make them important they become important. Has it become jingositic
:27:45. > :27:50.where it was never meant to be? have no problem with jingoism, if
:27:50. > :27:53.somebody wants to make it that, that doesn't mean it is right, you
:27:53. > :27:57.ignore them. It has become associated, from the Prime
:27:57. > :28:01.Minister's mouth, nationalism, you can say it is good or bad, but it
:28:01. > :28:04.has. You can see in Northern Ireland the association with
:28:04. > :28:08.Protestant loyalism. For Catholics in Northern Ireland it is a
:28:08. > :28:11.difficult symbol to embrace. I don't think we understand in the
:28:11. > :28:15.controversy around FIFA that it doesn't have the international
:28:15. > :28:19.recognition. In some places it isn't recognised and other places a
:28:19. > :28:22.negative symbol. I asked if it is time for a different symbol to
:28:22. > :28:27.remember different conflicts. We are going into a new century, it
:28:27. > :28:32.will be 100 years in 2017, a Sunday in 2017, Armistice. Do you think it
:28:32. > :28:37.will be a time to move on and create a new symbol for conflict?
:28:37. > :28:41.would like to see, 100 flowers flourish and let many symbols come
:28:41. > :28:44.forward. When I suggested this a few years ago that churches should
:28:44. > :28:47.make white poppies available alongside red poppies, it was
:28:47. > :28:53.treated with quite a lot of controversy, let's say, in the
:28:53. > :28:58.press and media. But I think we do need to have more inclusive
:28:58. > :29:02.remembrance, we have migrant communities might be uncomfortable,
:29:02. > :29:09.they might have relatives killed by British forces. We have people
:29:09. > :29:12.producing purple poppies there are war memorials to animals and
:29:12. > :29:15.conscientious objectors who have only got recognition. And also
:29:15. > :29:20.about the language, one more point, we need to recognise that people
:29:20. > :29:24.did die in vain, that death isn't glorious, moderating the language.
:29:24. > :29:28.They didn't die in vain, they died because we sent them off to die, we